How strong was Mithrandir?
Lindelea O'Laro
Does anyone know how strong he was in comparison to Osse or Sauron?
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Dylan Hunter
Lindelea O'Laro <d.h...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Does anyone know how strong he was in comparison to Osse or Sauron?
>--
Although Gandalf's power is never actually well-elucidated, (at
least not in The Hobbit, LoTR and the Silmarillion - I personally find
Christopher's contributions in the latter books of such a difference in
quality that I cannot enjoy them - but I digress) the suggestion that he
would easily be a match for Sauron should he start down that road is
quite strong.
Firstly, one must accept the posit that the Istari were among the
Maiar themselves. This is certainly well-enough established for my
comfort - their mysterious arrival with the specific design of opposing
Sauron as his power was once again growing in the Third Age; Gandalf's
defeat of the Balrog - a fellow Maia; his later re-birth after being told
- by some "unknown group," (the Valar?, Eru and the Ainur?) - that his
job was not yet complete, and the spirit of Saruman looking to the West
when he was slain - presumably for some sort of judgment only to fade
into oblivion when this was rendered. All of these certainly suggest the
true nature of the Istari. It was only their restriction that they were
not to oppose Sauron directly that kept them from displaying their power
to its fullest degree.
Given, then, that the Istari were indeed Maiar, the question then
becomes, would Gandalf, being second in this order by his own admission,
(e.g. The Grey) be of great enough power to oppose Sauron, or would this
require the power of The White, (e.g. Saruman). This question has a few
answers:
1) It seems most logical, given that the Istari spread throughout
Middle Earth rather than remaining in one group, that each individual
member, in their geographical area and/or specialty, (i.e. Ring-lore for
Saruman, Wisdom and "Knowledge of Men's hearts" for Gandalf, Flora and
Fauna for Radagast) should be able to counter Sauron individually. If
one was set the task of confounding Sauron at every turn, and yet was
incapable of doing so alone, why would he separate from the group,
thereby making himself unable to perform that for which he was
specifically sent?
2) Sauron's greatest power lied neither in his physical might, nor
in his own capacity for wizardry and magic, (great though both of these
were) but rather in his role as "The Great Deceiver." Sauron's greatest
victory, and most heinous crime, the temptation of the Dunedain and the
Fall of Numenor, was not one of power in spells or grandeur of war, but
in poisoning the hearts of Men - building on the work of Melkor before
him to make Man fear Death, the Gift of Iluvatar - a fear that continues
to this day, well into the Fourth Age. One constant remains throughout
the Ages, both of Star and Sun; Sauron succeeds and prospers not because
of Might, but because he knows how to twist others to his own will. It
was precisely this talent that endeared him to his former master during
the First Age.
Of all the Istari, Gandalf was the greatest in the knowledge of the
hearts of Men - in his ability to excite the forces of Middle Earth in
groups large and small to oppose the Great Enemy - to meet Sauron on his
own field of manipulation/motivation, and to defeat him through the
machinations of others, just as Sauron would. And, as has been proved
time and time again, the power to make others do what one wishes is
always more valuable and effective than doing it oneself. Only Gandalf
could have competed with Sauron here.
3) Gandalf suggests that he must not even touch the One Ring - that
he would seek to use it for Good, but would eventually be twisted to evil
purpose by it. Knowing exactly that his skills and talents are precisely
those of Sauron, were his heart to become black, he would become as
horrid and as reviled a figure.
Saruman might be able to intimidate those around him, but they would
always be aware that they followed him only out of fear, and when amassed
in great enough numbers would seek to overthrow him. Only Gandalf had
the cunning and the understanding of those around him necessary to make
them do what he wished, while making them believe that they were acting
on their own.
This is important, as I suggested earlier, in that it was not an
enslavement of strength that brought the greatest of those under Sauron's
sway to him, but an enslavement of their own desires - the promise of
power, (to the Nine), of wealth, (to the Seven) and, as was evidenced in
the First Age, had the Three been found, the Elves, especially the
Noldor, possessed darkness enough in their "souls," (properly speaking
they did not have "souls" - this was the difference between the Firstborn
and the Secondborn) to have been _hideous_ servants. Of all the Istari,
only Gandalf had enough interest in, and understanding of, the races to
so delicately guide the Nation of Mordor should he have so chosen.
4) Any inequity between the Might of The Grey and The White, (for
Sauron was certainly a mighty foe of his own accord) was overcome with
Gandalf's re-birth. So, if Gandalf the Grey may not have been able to
withstand an eventual confrontation with Sauron in a contest of strength,
(a question I very much doubt given the glimmers throughout the writings)
the increased power of Gandalf the White, returned from (Valinor/The
Void?) certainly would. If there was any difference in power, (I tend to
think that the naming and coloring conventions were more ceremonial than
actual) Gandalf now possessed the strength of the mightiest of the
Istari, the group chosen to oppose Sauron, and the wisdom to use such
power to greatest effect. Had Saruman possessed such wisdom, the Third
Age may have turned out quite differently.
Could Gandalf have defeated Sauron alone? Perhaps, but as it was,
by using his own talents of motivation, by rallying the beneficent forces
of Middle Earth for one last great stand, by remaining humble when all
temptation was to become Glorious, Gandalf once and for all _did_ defeat
Sauron, and spread his evil to the four winds. In the final analysis,
Gandalf's power was the greater.
Dylan, (dhun...@ix.netcom.com)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the universe."
- Winston Churchill
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ninni M. Pettersson
In message ID <52ng94$f...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> on 1996-09-30, Dylan
Hunter wrote:
> Although Gandalf's power is never actually well-elucidated, (at
> least not in The Hobbit, LoTR and the Silmarillion - I personally find
> Christopher's contributions in the latter books of such a difference in
> quality that I cannot enjoy them - but I digress) the suggestion that he
> would easily be a match for Sauron should he start down that road is
> quite strong.
thoroughly in some of his letters and also in text published in _Unfinished
Tales_, but I don't have the energy to type all that material here. (I really
recommend you to read _Letters_ if you want to get a more thorough grasp of
Tolkien's creation.)
<snip>
his later re-birth
after being told
> - by some "unknown group," (the Valar?, Eru and the Ainur?)
<snip>
the
Elves, especially the
> Noldor, possessed darkness enough in their "souls," (properly speaking
> they did not have "souls" - this was the difference between the Firstborn
> and the Secondborn)
various text published in for example _Morgoth's Ring_.
<snip>
/Vidumavi
vidu...@online.idg.se (sent via BulkRate 2.1.2)
Marks Robert B
Lindelea O'Laro (d.h...@sk.sympatico.ca) wrote:
: Does anyone know how strong he was in comparison to Osse or Sauron?
The question for me is how do you define strength? For example, in terms
of physical strength, it seems that Gandalf has unlimited strength (the
only reason he dies in Moria is that the Balrog's whip takes him down the
chasm as the Balrog falls).
In terms of magical strength, I think that Gandalf has difficulties.
Sauron is probably a bit stronger than Gandalf, but that comes from
practice. The problem that Gandalf faces is that Sauron is after a
military victory over men, and not a magical victory over the Maiar or
Valar. To expand, Sauron really doesn't care that much about what Gandalf
does, so long as he isn't in the way. We really don't see Sauron do very
much at all against Gandalf, he works through his minions and his Nazgul.
The only time that we see the Nazgul go against Gandalf is when he is
delayed at Weathertop by them, and in the heat of battle at Minas Tirith.
Well, there is my two cents worth...
Robert Marks
--
"All our kind is feared by mortals," the Shivan [Dragon] stated. "They
hunt us out of fear, out of the fear that ignorance provides. The result
is that when in need, few mortals will help our kind."
-- from The Dragonquest
Daryl Hutchinson
Great answer, I whole heartedly agree with you. But what did you mean
elves do not have souls?
David Salo
It gives one pause to think that Sauron, even in his greatly weakened
state at the end of the Third Age, was still the most powerful
(physically, magically, and politically) creature on the planet: more
powerful than Balrogs, more than dragons, more than Saruman or any of the
wizards. This after having been twice killed (in SA 3319 and 3441) and
twice reformed, and after having tied up half or more of his power in an
artifact which he then lost. This suggests that his stature in the First
and Second Ages must have been immensely impressive, almost on a par with
Eonwe's (in a way, he was Morgoth's answer to Eonwe). Gandalf and the
Istari could not measure up to that, and were never meant to. The Elves
and Men of Middle-earth had shown that they could stand up to Sauron's
power even in his mightier forms - in the War of the Elves and Sauron, and
the War of the Last Alliance. Presumably, with a little guidance from
wise old men, they could do it again.
In this the wizards failed; though perhaps the continuing strength of
Gondor, and the perpetuating of the Dunedain of the North owed a little to
their efforts. We do not know. If they made an effort to prevent Sauron
from rebuilding his political power in the East and South (this would seem
to have been the mission of the Blue Wizards) they failed. If they tried
to prevent the estrangement of Elves and Men in the Third Age, they
failed. They were able to do nothing to prevent the decay and destruction
of the Arnorian states. Their influence was in lesser matters - or
matters that seemed lesser, anyway.
Radagast gave himself up to the study of bird-lore and beast-lore,
tucked away in a remote corner of Middle-earth. Gandalf wandered around,
obsessed with obscure matters such as pipe-weed and the affairs of little
people, dwarves and halflings. Saruman seems to have decided that only
the direct approach would work, and tried to learn more about the rings
and Sauron's power, leading to his discovering that he was really in
sympathy with Sauron's motives and means. By the end of the Third Age the
situation had deteriorated to such an extent that all the Elves, Free Men,
and the Five Wizards put together would not have been able to stand up to
Sauron's political and military strength.
David Salo
Antonio Amaral
Lindelea O'Laro (d.h...@sk.sympatico.ca) wrote:
: Does anyone know how strong he was in comparison to Osse or Sauron?
Anyone would agree that he was weaker than both, in Middle-earth
at least.
Antonio Amaral
Valture Lomennynon
Timothy Friest
Dylan Hunter wrote:
> Given, then, that the Istari were indeed Maiar, the question then
>becomes, would Gandalf, being second in this order by his own admission,
>(e.g. The Grey) be of great enough power to oppose Sauron, or would this
>require the power of The White, (e.g. Saruman).
First, Olorin was reluctant to leave Valinor and go to ME, but was
persuaded
(look, if Manwe asked me to go on a trip, I'd pack my bags too).
Mithrandir
was also considered as the leader of the Istari, but Curinir was
selected,
I'll bet more because he wanted it and Mithrandir didn't than because he
was
stronger (didn't he make some comment about that when he imprisoned
Gandalf at
Orthanc?)
Secondly, the Istari were specifically stated to have been "clothed in
mortal flesh"
or something similar, presumably weakening them or at least binding
their powers
(hence, Gandalf's mortal body was destroyed in the battle with the
Balrog because
he had to exert his full powers as much as because the Balrog damaged
him).
Finally, I always pictured Gandalf as a someone who used power
sparingly. Purhaps
he didn't want to bring attention to himself, but maybe it just wasn't
in him to
beat up on people.
Gandalf only seems to have fought when cornered. He always won. So,
did he
avoid fights because he was weak, or because he was strong enough not to
fear
the outcome, and compasionate enough to give his enemies the option to
flee.
Andrew
In article <dmrovner-300...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
dmro...@students.wisc.edu (David Salo) wrote:
> In this the wizards failed; though perhaps the continuing strength of
> Gondor, and the perpetuating of the Dunedain of the North owed a little to
> their efforts. We do not know. If they made an effort to prevent Sauron
> from rebuilding his political power in the East and South (this would seem
> to have been the mission of the Blue Wizards) they failed. If they tried
> to prevent the estrangement of Elves and Men in the Third Age, they
> failed. They were able to do nothing to prevent the decay and destruction
> of the Arnorian states. Their influence was in lesser matters - or
> matters that seemed lesser, anyway.
> Gandalf wandered around,
> obsessed with obscure matters such as pipe-weed and the affairs of little
> people, dwarves and halflings.
> By the end of the Third Age the
> situation had deteriorated to such an extent that all the Elves, Free Men,
> and the Five Wizards put together would not have been able to stand up to
> Sauron's political and military strength.
I postulate that is was precisely Gandalfs interest in these small
matters which enabled Sauron to be defeated.
He accomplished through subtle and delicate actions exactly what was
required to achieve the desired outcome.
There was probably little enough of the overt strength of arms of
Elves and Men to openly and directly combat Sauron in the 3rd age.
It was hard enough to drive him out of Dol Guldor.
Considering the stakes one of five Wizards working out was
actually pretty excellent. After all, the good guys won in the
end.
--
Andrew Carol "Could be worse. Could be raining."
car...@apple.com ca...@woz.org
Jennie Matthews
Shlomo Mahlab (shl...@en3500.oren.co.il) wrote:
&I recall reading somewhere that Gandalf's powers were limited when he
&was sent to ME.
According to "On the Istari", all of the IStari were weakened when they
were sent to Middle-earth.
[cut]
&If you recall the Hobbit, the council got together to chase Sauron out of
&Dol-Guldor (sp?). Gandalf wasn't there alone, and still Sauron wasn't
&destroyed.
Sauron's "flight" from Dol Guldur was, IMHO, one of his best strategems
leading up to the War of the Ring. The White Council didn't really pose a
threat to him, and he was getting ready to depart for Mordor soon anyway.
By making a pretense of being "driven out" of Dol Guldur, Sauron may have
lulled the Council into a flase sense of security and made his eventual
reestablishment of Mordor easier.
[cut]
Pat
--
Patrick G. Matthews
"Listening to Offspring while driving automatically increases your speed
by 10 miles per hour without even touching the accelerator."
- Rick Grimes, 5/95
Jennie Matthews
David Salo (dmro...@students.wisc.edu) wrote:
& It gives one pause to think that Sauron, even in his greatly weakened
&state at the end of the Third Age, was still the most powerful
&(physically, magically, and politically) creature on the planet: more
&powerful than Balrogs, more than dragons, more than Saruman or any of the
&wizards. This after having been twice killed (in SA 3319 and 3441) and
&twice reformed, and after having tied up half or more of his power in an
&artifact which he then lost.
Actually, Sauron's body was destroyed three times: the first was by Huan
during Beren and Luthien's quest for the Silmaril. But this only
strengthens your point.
&This suggests that his stature in the First and Second Ages must have
&been immensely impressive, almost on a par with Eonwe's (in a way, he
&was Morgoth's answer to Eonwe).
Agreed. Of course, *all* the heroes and villains of the First Age were of
much greater stature than in the Third Age.
&Gandalf and the Istari could not measure up to that, and were never
&meant to. The Elves and Men of Middle-earth had shown that they could
&stand up to Sauron's power even in his mightier forms - in the War of
&the Elves and Sauron, and the War of the Last Alliance. Presumably,
&with a little guidance from wise old men, they could do it again.
Not necessarily. Both Sauron and his opponents declined, but who declined
further? It's entirely possible (indeed, it's likely) that his opponents
declined more than he did, so that even if Sauron during the War of the
Ring is weaker than the Sauron of the Last Alliance, his relative power
position was higher during the WotR.
& In this the wizards failed; though perhaps the continuing strength of
&Gondor, and the perpetuating of the Dunedain of the North owed a little to
&their efforts. We do not know. If they made an effort to prevent Sauron
&from rebuilding his political power in the East and South (this would seem
&to have been the mission of the Blue Wizards) they failed.
They probably failed, but they may have thwarted Sauron somewhat:
1. They may have delayed Sauron's return to power, buying time for
Bilbo to find the Ring and for Gandalf's plans to unfold.
2. They may have kept some traditional vassals or potential vassals of
Sauron from coming under his banner
I have no idea if either of these happened, but it's *possible*, and we
cannot prove they didn't happen.
&If they tried to prevent the estrangement of Elves and Men in the Third
&Age, they failed. They were able to do nothing to prevent the decay and
&destruction of the Arnorian states.
Arnor was mostly doomed to eventual demise in its infancy: the debacle on
the Gladden Fields when Isildur was killed deprived Arnor of the better
part of its leadership, from which the kingdom never really recovered.
This happened *long* before the Istari arrived.
&Their influence was in lesser matters - or matters that seemed lesser,
&anyway.
Seemed may be the operative word here.
& Radagast gave himself up to the study of bird-lore and beast-lore,
&tucked away in a remote corner of Middle-earth.
Radagast may have made some contributions. _UT_ suggests that Radagast
was sent at the behest of Yavanna, so his mission may have been in large
part to minister to the flora and fauna. He may have had some untold
parts to play with the eagles and ents, both of whom were crucial in the
events of the WotR and the period leading up to it.
&Gandalf wandered around, obsessed with obscure matters such as pipe-weed
&and the affairs of little people, dwarves and halflings.
He also appears to have cultivated relationships among the Eldar.
&Saruman seems to have decided that only the direct approach would work,
&and tried to learn more about the rings and Sauron's power, leading to
&his discovering that he was really in sympathy with Sauron's motives and
&means. By the end of the Third Age the situation had deteriorated to
&such an extent that all the Elves, Free Men, and the Five Wizards put
&together would not have been able to stand up to Sauron's political and
&military strength.
Quite true. It's fair to say that four of the five Istari failed. But
it's unfair to say Gandalf failed.
CALVIN G. EXUM
In reply to your mail I just have to say that Gandalf and Istari started
as lesser spirits of the Maiar. They should have been on an equal level
with Sauron who supposedly had diminished since the earlier ages. But we
see very human failings in these spirits. Maybe they were going through
some kind of survival of the fittest test. Maybe they were being tested
for the chosen. It occurs to me that they were never meant to work in
tandem. I agree though, they were very ineffective until the end when
Gandalf went through the world calling up favors and threatening peoples.
CALVIN G. EXUM
Could anyone tell me how an elf could stand up to Sauron (although he was
defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
Jussi I Jaatinen
> It gives one pause to think that Sauron, even in his greatly weakened
>state at the end of the Third Age, was still the most powerful
>(physically, magically, and politically) creature on the planet: more
A key difference between Sauron and Gandalf, I think, is that whereas
Sauron is of Aule's people, Gandalf is from Manwe's flock. Perhaps this
reflects how they view things differently, Sauron makes rings and is in
many ways more "practical", than pipeweed-Mithrandir. (Who, in the end,
turns out the victor due to a superior understanding of the situation and
natures of peoples in Middle-earth.)
Saruman, incidentally, more or less inherited Sauron's position as chief
of Aule's staff after Sauron's fall to evil.
-JJ
--
Jussi Jaatinen
jija...@cc.helsinki.fi
"I have this scientific calculator. Sometimes I think of using it."
Michael Martinez
In article <52u544$9...@netnews.upenn.edu>, jen...@mail.med.upenn.edu (Jennie Matthews) wrote:
>Actually, Sauron's body was destroyed three times: the first was by Huan
>during Beren and Luthien's quest for the Silmaril. But this only
>strengthens your point.
His body was not destroyed in that encounter. He fled from the island in the
form of a bat, dripping blood, and settled in Dorthonion somewhere.
>&This suggests that his stature in the First and Second Ages must have
>&been immensely impressive, almost on a par with Eonwe's (in a way, he
>&was Morgoth's answer to Eonwe).
>
>Agreed. Of course, *all* the heroes and villains of the First Age were of
>much greater stature than in the Third Age.
Physical stature? The Edain of the First Age were actually of lesser physical
stature than the Dunedain of the Second Age. The Valar enhanced the Edain of
Numenor in body and mind.
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Markus Stolt
Lindelea O'Laro (d.h...@sk.sympatico.ca) wrote:
> Does anyone know how strong he was in comparison to Osse or Sauron?
There are different kinds of strength, but if you meant 'what would happen
if Gandalf took one-on-one with Sauron', Gandalf wouldn't stand a chance.
The Istari were forced to clothe themselves in mortal flesh when they were
sent to Middle-Earth, and so much of their Maia power was stripped from
them. If the same battle were fought in Aman, then Gandalf (as Olorin)
would make an even opponent.
For those, who are familiar with Role Playing Games, I have included here
some characters' experience levels as they were calculated for the
Middle-Earth Role Playing Game (Lords of Middle-Earth vols. 1-3, Iron Crown
Enterprises Inc.).
If you don't want to see your favourite heroes diminished to cold numbers,
better stop reading now.
<SPOILER SPACE>
** = see below
Name Level Spell Points
----------------------------------------------------
Valar
Manwe 500 26000
Varda 500 26000
Melkor (Morgoth) 500 26000
Ulmo 490 25480
Namo (Mandos) 485 22325
Aule 485 25220
Yavanna 485 25220
Orome 480 10560
Tulkas 450
Maiar
Sauron 360** **
Tom Bombadil 360 7920
Eonwe 350
Osse 325 6825
Uinen 325 6825
Arien 325
Tilion 315
Melian 275 6050
Goldberry 150 450
Istari
Saruman 100**
Gandalf 70**
Elves
Ingwe 150 1350
Luthien 150 1350
Finwe 140 1120
Olwe 135
Fingolfin 135 675
Feanor 130 1170
Finarfin 125 500
Elwe 120 600
Fingon 120 720
Finrod 115 460
Maedhros 105 525
Dior 100 500
Earendil 100
Gil-Galad 100 600
Daeron 90 540
Galadriel 90 360
Turgon 85 340
Maglor 85 680
Elrond 85 340
Glorfindel 50 200
Legolas 8 (at the beginning of WotR, 28 after the
War)
Humans
Hurin 100
Beren 99 210
Turin 99
Huor 93
Tuor 88
Elros 70 280
Elendil 60
Aragorn 27 (36 later) 180
Nazgul
The Witch King 60 180
Khamul the Easterling 50 150
Dwarves
Durin I (the Deathless) 77
Thorin Oakenshield 27
Gimli 8 (at the beginning of Wotr, 21 after the
War)
Hobbits
Gollum 15
Frodo 12
Bilbo 9
Sam 9
Merry 8
Pippin 8
Ents
Treebeard 55 165
Skinbark 45 135
Leaflock 42 84
Quickbeam 35 35
Explanations of Sauron and the Istari
n.r. = not revealed
Sauron 360 (with the Ring) 4800
240 (without the Ring) 1200
Gandalf the Grey 240 (in Aman) n.r. (5280?)
70 (as Gandalf) 210
Gandalf the White 360 (in Aman) n.r. (9000?)
120 (as Gandalf) 360
Saruman 300 (in Aman) n.r. (6600?)
100 (as Saruman) 300
50 (as Sharkey) 2
Many of the characters also possessed certain magical items that
multiplied their spell points (Morgoth's Crown x20, One Ring x18,
the Three Rings x9)
If someone wants a more complete list (or more details), let me know and
I might post (or mail) them one day.
--
***********************************************************************
* MARKUS STOLT | "I wake up and I see the face of the devil *
* | and I ask him: 'What time is it?' *
* sto...@myy.helbp.fi | *
* | And he says: 'How much time do you want?'" *
***********************************************************************
Dave Mitchell
CALVIN G. EXUM wrote:
>
> Could anyone tell me how an elf could stand up to Sauron (although he was
> defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
Maiar are not necessairly stronger then the children of Illuvatar (Man
or Elf). Some of the elves even exceeded the Valar. For example, Feanor
exceeded Aule in his skill crafting the Silmarils. What's to say a
lesser Maiar might not be able to stand up to one of the greater Maiar,
while a greater child of Illuvatar could stand up to one of the greater
Maiar?
--
dave mitchell
dmit...@erudite.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5400
Jennie Matthews
CALVIN G. EXUM (cge...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
&In reply to your mail I just have to say that Gandalf and Istari started
&as lesser spirits of the Maiar. They should have been on an equal level
&with Sauron who supposedly had diminished since the earlier ages.
Not all maiar were equal in power, just as not all valar were equal, nor
the Children of Eru.
Sauron is very clearly one of the most powerful maiar who entered Ea;
there is no reason to believe that (in their undiminished forms) any of
the Istari were his equal.
&But we see very human failings in these spirits. Maybe they were going
&through some kind of survival of the fittest test. Maybe they were
&being tested for the chosen. It occurs to me that they were never meant
&to work in tandem. I agree though, they were very ineffective until the
&end when Gandalf went through the world calling up favors and
&threatening peoples.
According to _UT_, the Istari were sent in human-like forms precisely to
limit their powers and to expose them to the weariness and temptations of
the material world.
Jennie Matthews
Michael Martinez (mich...@basis.com) wrote:
Pat Matthews wrote:
[cut]
&>Agreed. Of course, *all* the heroes and villains of the First Age were of
&>much greater stature than in the Third Age.
&Physical stature? The Edain of the First Age were actually of lesser
&physical stature than the Dunedain of the Second Age. The Valar
&enhanced the Edain of Numenor in body and mind.
Physical stature isn't what I meant :) What I meant to say is that the
heroes of the First Age seem to have been much more powerful than those
of the Third.
Marks Robert B
: defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
I'm afraid that I don't know exactly what text you are referring to, but I
will put forward this idea: sheer luck.
Michael Martinez
In article <530nrb$3...@netnews.upenn.edu>, jen...@mail.med.upenn.edu (Jennie Matthews) wrote:
>Physical stature isn't what I meant :) What I meant to say is that the
>heroes of the First Age seem to have been much more powerful than those
>of the Third.
Hm.
Maybe they just had more OPPORTUNITY in the First Age. :)
Margaret R. Dean
In article <530t3e$q...@knot.queensu.ca>,
Marks Robert B <4r...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>CALVIN G. EXUM (cge...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
>: Could anyone tell me how an elf could stand up to Sauron (although he was
>: defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
>
>I'm afraid that I don't know exactly what text you are referring to, but I
>will put forward this idea: sheer luck.
I believe the text referred to is Finrod Felagund's magical song contest
with Sauron, in the tale of Beren and Luthien. It wasn't a question of
luck; what did for Finrod, as the text makes clear, is that he was tainted
(however slightly) by the Kinslaying.
--Margaret
CALVIN G. EXUM
On 3 Oct 1996, Jennie Matthews wrote:
> CALVIN G. EXUM (cge...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
> &In reply to your mail I just have to say that Gandalf and Istari started
> &as lesser spirits of the Maiar. They should have been on an equal level
> &with Sauron who supposedly had diminished since the earlier ages.
>
> Not all maiar were equal in power, just as not all valar were equal, nor
> the Children of Eru.
>
It is clear that all the maiar were not equal in power. Everyone is
wondering how could an elf match one of the maiar in combat. We see
several instances when Sauron is challenged by earthborn. Finrod fought
him spell for spell and was even able to disguise himself after his
defeat. No I think Sauron's true power lie in fear and terror not based
in actual might.
> Sauron is very clearly one of the most powerful maiar who entered Ea;
> there is no reason to believe that (in their undiminished forms) any of
> the Istari were his equal.
>
> &But we see very human failings in these spirits. Maybe they were going
> &through some kind of survival of the fittest test. Maybe they were
> &being tested for the chosen. It occurs to me that they were never meant
> &to work in tandem. I agree though, they were very ineffective until the
> &end when Gandalf went through the world calling up favors and
> &threatening peoples.
>
> According to _UT_, the Istari were sent in human-like forms precisely to
> limit their powers and to expose them to the weariness and temptations of
> the material world.
>
Could those temptations and that very weariness have not been a weeding
out process. The only one to come through sucessfully was Gandalf. There
were five and only that one came through. Gandalf was truly special even
amongst the Valar.
CALVIN G. EXUM
On 3 Oct 1996, Marks Robert B wrote:
> CALVIN G. EXUM (cge...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
> : Could anyone tell me how an elf could stand up to Sauron (although he was
> : defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
>
> I'm afraid that I don't know exactly what text you are referring to, but I
> will put forward this idea: sheer luck.
>
> Robert Marks
> It was in the Silmarillion. The elf was Finrod. Sauron has been
challenged by the Children of Illuvatar numerous times. Luthien?
Michael Martinez
In article <530t3e$q...@knot.queensu.ca>, 4r...@qlink.queensu.ca (Marks Robert B) wrote:
>CALVIN G. EXUM (cge...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
>: Could anyone tell me how an elf could stand up to Sauron (although he was
>: defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
>
>I'm afraid that I don't know exactly what text you are referring to, but I
>will put forward this idea: sheer luck.
During the First Age, Finrod Felagund engaged in a contest of songs with
Sauron on the isle of Tol n'Gaurhoth, which formerly had been known as Tol
Sirion, where Finrod's fortress of Minas Tirith had stood. Finrod was
powerful but Sauron was pretty much gauranteed a chance of winning.
When Luthien Tinuviel and Huan, the Hound of Valinor, came to the island to
free Beren, Sauron assumed the shape of a huge wolf in the hope of killing
Huan, but the hound defeated Sauron and wounded him. These two encounters
were originally described in "Lay of Leithian" but were adapted into THE
SILMARILLION (see the chapter on "Beren and Luthien").
Sauron apparently fought in the War of Wrath but submitted to Eonwe rather
than be "destroyed" with the Balrogs. Yet he refused to return to Valinor to
submit himself to the judgement of the Valar (see "Of The Rings Of Power And
The Third Age" in THE SILMARILLION).
Sauron was defeated in the field by the armies of Lindon, Eregion, and Numenor
at the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron. He was not physically harmed
but only escaped capture by the Elves and Dunedain with a handful of his
bodyguard (see "The History Of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth King of
Lorien" in UNFINISHED TALES).
At the end of the Second Age Sauron was again defeated in the field by the
Host of the Last Alliance, even though he wore the One Ring. He managed to
return to Mordor well ahead of his enemies (see "Of The Rings Of Power And The
Third Age" in THE SILMARILLION).
It would seem that Sauron himself initiated the attack against Gil-galad on
Mount Doom (although I don't know if volume XII of HOME sheds any light on
this matter), that Gil-galad really didn't get to defend himself, and that it
was Elendil who overbore Sauron (but was himself mortally wounded). This I
gather from one of the HOME volumes that I don't have available, probably THE
RETURN OF THE SHADOW. The only description of the combat I've come across so
far is in a section that deals with the writing of "The Council of Elrond",
and the passage (not included in the final text) is quite brief anyway.
So, a dog of Valinor (Huan), a Man (Elendil), and the Host of Valinor itself
all defeated Sauron in one way or another. Finrod probably never had a chance
of defeating Sauron. Gandalf himself, in his true form as Olorin, may or may
not have been up to the task, but as a Wizard, a Man, he was not really
powerful enough to try it. On the other hand, being able to take on the
Balrog, he might also have been able to take on Sauron, had push come to
shove.
Tolkien writes of Gandalf (versus Sauron):
"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master
him -- being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of
the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical
form....Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self,
was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which
Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be
a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of
the Ring to Sauron; on the superior strength because Sauron
was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because
he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will
in dominating inferiors." (from a draft of a letter written
in September 1963, Letter #246, THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKIEN)
Gandalf with the Ring was, to Tolkien, almost unbeatable. Gandalf without the
Ring versus Sauron without the Ring was a different matter, and yet not
necessarily one easily resolved in the author's mind, because he wasn't sure
of just how strong Sauron was at the end of the Third Age.
Of course, in an incomplete essay which Christopher Tolkien summarizes in
"The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES, Olorin tells Manwe that "he was too weak for
such a task, and that he feared Sauron." On the other hand, an earlier
passage in the "hasty sketch" (as Christopher describes it) states that the
THREE messengers Manwe wishes to send out "must be mighty, peers of Sauron,
but must forego might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on
equality and win the trust of Elves and Men."
This is significant, then, in that Olorin is presented as a powerful Maia, on
a par with Sauron, and yet who is humble enough to think himself unworthy of
the task Manwe sets him.
Who was Olorin that Manwe should think so much of him?
In the notes for the essay mentioned above Olorin appears to be associated
with Manwe and Varda in some way. He comes late to the council of the Valar
because he has just returned from a journey. And yet in THE SILMARILLION he
is associated with Lorien. There is an etymological note which Christopher
reports exists in at least two versions, and the earlier version makes Olorin
a counsellor of Irmo (Lorien).
So it would seem that Tolkien intended for Olorin to be a very powerful Maia,
and that perhaps Olorin was to be moved from the following of Irmo to the
following of Manwe. It may even be that Olorin would have been consigned a
place similar to that of Eonwe, in which case he would have been extremely
powerful.
In any event, there is no real reason to think of Olorin as weak compared to
Sauron, whereas in the form of Gandalf he was diminished until sent back to
complete his task, at which time he was freed of his previous limitations and
perhaps even enhanced in power.
Jussi I Jaatinen
>When Luthien Tinuviel and Huan, the Hound of Valinor, came to the island to
>free Beren, Sauron assumed the shape of a huge wolf in the hope of killing
>Huan, but the hound defeated Sauron and wounded him. These two encounters
But this is because Huan's destiny (one that Sauron knew) was to be
defeated by the most powerful wolf in existence. Sauron thought to
fulfill this prophecy by becoming said wolf himself, but he wasn't aware
of Carcaroth => Sauron could not destroy Huan. If Carcharoth wasn't to
be, Sauron might have been able to kill Huan. In other words, were Sauron
and Huan faced with enemies separately, it is my guess that Sauron would
turn out "more powerful". (Sauron could probably kill Carcaroth using
spells)
Michael Martinez
In article <533si1$t...@vesuri.helsinki.fi>, jija...@cc.helsinki.fi (Jussi I Jaatinen) wrote:
>In <53241p$16k...@thepope.basis.com> mich...@basis.com (Michael Martinez)
> writes:
>
>>free Beren, Sauron assumed the shape of a huge wolf in the hope of killing
>>Huan, but the hound defeated Sauron and wounded him. These two encounters
>
>defeated by the most powerful wolf in existence. Sauron thought to
>fulfill this prophecy by becoming said wolf himself, but he wasn't aware
>of Carcaroth => Sauron could not destroy Huan. If Carcharoth wasn't to
>be, Sauron might have been able to kill Huan. In other words, were Sauron
>and Huan faced with enemies separately, it is my guess that Sauron would
>turn out "more powerful". (Sauron could probably kill Carcaroth using
>spells)
Although Huan's fate was determined by the Valar, he was nonetheless
originally one of Orome's hounds, or descended from one. Orome had spent many
long ages hunting Morgoth's creatues in Middle-earth prior to the Exile of the
Noldor.
It's not necessarily a forgone conclusion that Sauron could have beaten Huan
or a similar hound of Valinor under other circumstances.
Steven Allen
It is obvious that Mithrandir is NOT as strong as Sauron.
Your logic on whole was pretty good, but you forgot one important excerpt.
In TT when Gandalf the White is defending the Siege of Gondor, he
comments to Denathor that he is not as strong as the Nazgul, which are
Sauron's underlings. Surely that alone points to weaknesses of Mithrandir.
Sander Vesik
CALVIN G. EXUM (cge...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
: Could anyone tell me how an elf could stand up to Sauron (although he was
: defeated) and one of the Maiar can't?
How many of the Maiar were equal to or greater in the power
than the great of the elves? Why did Gandalf describe the mind
and hands of Feanor as unimaginable?
Sander
Michael Martinez
To whom are you responding? It is helpful to quote at least part of the
article to which you are following up so people know what the context of your
comments is.
Colin Green
I'm not sure that this is quite the case. In the TT, during the
discussions with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn Forest, Mithrandir
clearly indicates that he "threw down my enemy, and.....he broke the
moutain-sdie in his ruin".
After defeating in battle one of the Valaraukar (Balrog), he has clearly
demonstrated his ability and strength. After all, the Silmarillion
indicates that few Balrog's were actually killed during the Battles in
Beleriand until arrival of the Host of Valinor at the end of the First
Age. As I remember it, only Ecthelion and Glorfindel (during the Fall of
Gondolin) are documented to have slain a Balrog.
With regard to the Nazgul, Mithrandir drove all nine Nazgul from
Weathertop and challenged five immediately before the Seige of
Gondor. He also indicates on at least one occasion (I can't remember
where) that "my time has not yet come". In addition, although in TROTK
(Chap. 4: The Seige of Gondor), Gandalf states that "For one has come
that I feared.", it implies that he [Gandalf] does not fear him at the
time. In addition, during the same discussion with Denethor, he also
implies that he is not overmatched by the Lord of the Nazgul and
subsequently faces down the Lord of the Nazgul after the Gates of Minas
Tirith were smashed.
I'm sure that there are arguments for Mithrandir as a "weak" being - I'm
not sure that they hold a great deal of water. After all, the Valar
would not have sent the Istari to Middle-Earth if they hadn't had
something going for them (although the more significant of their powers
had been stripped from them before they were sent).
John Osborne
jen...@mail.med.upenn.edu (Jennie Matthews) wrote:
>David Salo (dmro...@students.wisc.edu) wrote:
<SNIIIP>
>& ...the wizards failed...
<SNIIIP>
>Quite true. It's fair to say that four of the five Istari failed. But
>it's unfair to say Gandalf failed.
Actually, I think it's fair to say that Gandalf failed. He was, after
all, killed at quite an early stage in the journey of the Nine
Walkers. If he hadn't been sent back by Higher Authority (something
which I doubt he anticipated) then the outcome of the War of the Ring
would have been vastly different, almost certainly to the detriment of
the West of M-e.
Regards
--
John Osborne jo...@kami.demon.co.uk
Eallra craeft unnytt be thonne Engel on flintloce micgeth
Andrew
In article <84517919...@kami.demon.co.uk>, jo...@kami.demon.co.uk
(John Osborne) wrote:
> Actually, I think it's fair to say that Gandalf failed. He was, after
> all, killed at quite an early stage in the journey of the Nine
> Walkers. If he hadn't been sent back by Higher Authority (something
> which I doubt he anticipated) then the outcome of the War of the Ring
> would have been vastly different, almost certainly to the detriment of
> the West of M-e.
It doesn't matter how you succeed as long as you do. He set a goal,
and set in motion many of the things which made a difference. He
provided help, and as you pointed out received help. But what he
was tasked with doing got done.
Unknown
- Columbia, SC