Eonwe and Sauron
Tatjana Gajic
Hi all,
I have a question about the overthrow of Morgoth, and the
treatment of Sauron after this event. To quote from the
text directly:
From: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on
fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the hearld of Manwe, and
abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first
falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of
fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the
Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon
those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and
there received the judgement of Manwe. Then Sauron was ashamed,
and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from
the Valar a sentence, in might be, of long servitude in proof of his
good faith...therefore when Eonwe departed he hid himself in
Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that
Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
This is pretty shocking to me. It implies that most of the
evil events from the 2nd and 3rd Age (at least those perpetrated
by Sauron) came about because Eonwe screwed up by trusting
Sauron. Eonwe was unwilling or unable to capture Sauron
directly, and the Valar were for some unstated reason
unwilling to do so as well, although they were willing
to capture Morgoth. Now, if you assume that they
hoped Sauron would turn "good" (as unlikely as that would
seem), why didn't they do more when it became clear
he was evil? As far as I can determine, the downfall
of Numenor, as well as all the problems of the 3rd age,
were caused (or at least hastened) by Sauron. Why
did the Valar simply sit back and let Sauron work his
evil, DESPITE the fact that his post-Morgoth freedom was their fault?
Why did they settle with sending the Istari, and then only
well into the 3rd age? Why didn't they do more in Numenor?
They may well have been able to forestall what happened
there if they had taken responsibility for Sauron's
actions, as they should have.
I understand that the Valar wanted the peoples of Middle Earth
to fight against Sauron themselves, since evil was loose
because of Morgoth. Sauron himself was simply one aspect of
this evil, and nasty things undoubtedly would have happened
with or without Sauron. But this seems to me no excuse.
They had Sauron, let him go, and did almost nothing about
him afterwards. The peoples of Numenor and Middle Earth
could well have learned to fight any other evil that
remained after Sauron; this excuse of the Valar (which
I'm simply speculating) seems pretty lame.
So what do you think? Why did the Valar let Sauron go?
And why did they do so little about him?
Thanks!
Tatjana Gajic
Michael Martinez
>This is pretty shocking to me. It implies that most of the
>evil events from the 2nd and 3rd Age (at least those perpetrated
>by Sauron) came about because Eonwe screwed up by trusting
>Sauron.
{Lotsa snippage has occurred)
None of the great evils would have occurred if the Valar had kept Melkor
locked up in Mandos and gone after Sauron as well.
--
\\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy in...@xenite.org
\\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/
//\\ Xena Channel: http://www.xenite.org/channels/xena.html
// \\ENITE.org....................................................
Rick
actions as either 'screwing up' or 'trusting' Sauron. "... it
was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon those of his own
order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there
received the judgement of Manwe."
whether Eonwe trusted Sauron's claims of repentance but simply
hadn't the power to grant pardon, or knew that since he didn't
have such authority, his own estimation of Sauron's claims were,
in any event, irrelevant, and so wisely commanded Sauron to
return to Manwe for judgement.
It's been awhile since I last read the Silmarillion, but I seem
to recall other passages that suggest that many other spirits
fled from the overthrow of Thangorodrim, most notably besides
Sauron himself, the Balrog that later turned up in Moria. How it
came that Sauron was either captured, or turned himself in to
Eonwe, I do not recall. It may be relevent, but in any event,
neither the Maiar nor the Valar had complete knowledge of, or
control over, the goings on in Middle Earth. I seem to recall
many passages where most of the inhabitants of Middle Earth
didn't even know who this Annatar (Lord of Gifts) was when he
became active (something like a thousand years after the
Overthrow where Sauron was presumably in hiding and the Powers
took no action).
So, I think we can legitimately ask why they took no action
against Sauron, the Balrog, or any other lesser embodiments of
evil, but not whether Eonwe was at fault. He reports back to
Manwe that Sauron came to him claiming repentance. Eonwe, having
at least some wisdom according to his stature, decides that such
weighty matters must be judged by Manwe and not himself, and
accordingly he orders Sauron back to Manwe for judgement. Unless
we further assume that Eonwe had the power to imprison Sauron
'physically' or by some other means compel his appearance before
Manwe, what else could he have done?
I'm quite willing to see 'as failurre' the failure of the
Powers to completely scour Middle Earth of any creatures that
were embodiments of evil, and let the problems of the evil that
elves, dwarves, and men carried around inside them determine the
history of future ages (as was apparently Tolkien's intent for
Men for the Fourth Age on....) But whether we wish to write this
off as mere plot device, or the failure of the Valar to
understand the nature of Evil, having so litte of it within
themselves, or some other explanation, I can hardly fault Eonwe.
If anything, I think it an interesting, and quite possibly
deliberate -- on Tolkien's part, comment on the problem of how
Good deals with Evil when Evil claims repentance. Surely we wish
to have avenues open for repentance, but we must also acknowledge
how vulnerable we are when applying principles of law instead of
coercive power when dealing with those who have shown no
willingness to play fair previously.
Most of the 2nd and 3rd Age revolve around the machinations of
Sauron, not around the actions of Eonwe, fair enough?
"Tatjana Gajic" <t...@duke.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.91.100022...@godzilla1.acpub.duk
e.edu...
> This is pretty shocking to me. It implies that most of the
> evil events from the 2nd and 3rd Age (at least those
perpetrated
> by Sauron) came about because Eonwe screwed up by trusting
ap...@my-deja.com
that I have decided to de-lurk and put in my two cents' worth :D
In article <ABms4.6283$Py3....@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
"Rick" <kat...@mediaone.net> wrote:
<big snip>
> So, I think we can legitimately ask why they took no action
> against Sauron, the Balrog, or any other lesser embodiments of
> evil, but not whether Eonwe was at fault. He reports back to
> Manwe that Sauron came to him claiming repentance. Eonwe, having
> at least some wisdom according to his stature, decides that such
> weighty matters must be judged by Manwe and not himself, and
> accordingly he orders Sauron back to Manwe for judgement. Unless
> we further assume that Eonwe had the power to imprison Sauron
> 'physically' or by some other means compel his appearance before
> Manwe, what else could he have done?
I think that not only was it Eonwe's duty to bring Sauron back (using
force if necessary) but also that it was within his power.
First, remember that the first time Melkor was defeated, he did say he
was sorry (just like Sauron did at the end of the War of Wrath) but was
nevertheless chained up and brought before Manwe for judgement. Also
remember that Sauron hid during that time, so, to put it in modern
terms, there was still a warrant out for his arrest for his earlier
crimes.
Second, doesn't the text say that Morgoth's feet were "hewn from under
him" and he was chained up, etc., etc.? If Eonwe had this kind of
strength at his disposal (although it is not in the text, I like to
believe that it was Tulkas who finally got his chance to kick Morgoth's
ass once more), then he could certainly have forced a much punier Sauron
to come back with him. Think about this one: Sauron was once defeated
by a girl and her pooch!!!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Stan Brown
[After the War of Wrath, Sauron humbled himself before Eonwe who
told him to go to Valinor for judgment by the Valar, but Sauron
didn't go.]
>This is pretty shocking to me. It implies that most of the
>evil events from the 2nd and 3rd Age (at least those perpetrated
>by Sauron) came about because Eonwe screwed up by trusting
>Sauron. Eonwe was unwilling or unable to capture Sauron
>directly, and the Valar were for some unstated reason
>unwilling to do so as well, although they were willing
>to capture Morgoth.
I think the Valar were naive in some ways. Remember that they
actually pardoned *Morgoth* the first time around:
"Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet
suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was
constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming
were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the
Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they
sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go
freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of
Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not
comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought
of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the
depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had
departed from him for ever."
I think the key line is "Manwë was free from evil and could not
comprehend it", and I think all the Valar and Maiar shared that
in some degree. And of course Eonwe was leading an army that was
doubtless eager to demobilize (return to Valinor); also he had to
be concerned with restabilizing Middle-earth after the northwest
had dropped below the sea.
Yes, I think Eonwe bungled. It was probably a mistake to just
trust Sauron to get to Valinor on his own. On the other hand,
even though Sauron had been Morgoth's right-hand Maia for
centuries, that's not very long to the Valar, and Morgoth's
defeat seemed complete. Eonwe may have judged that Sauron could
do no real harm (as Gandalf and Frodo thought of Saruman, 6000
years later).
You raise an interesting question. I don't think there's a
definitive answer, but I'll be interested to read what others may
say.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
Tolkien FAQs:
http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen)
http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos)
Inklings site list:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html
more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm
Tatjana Gajic
Thanks for the comments, Rich (some of which I've snipped).
A couple things:
I don't feel like Sauron and the Balrogs are comparable in
one respect. Tolkien writes that, after Morgoth's first
defeat, the Balrogs hid themselves deep underground, and
also that the Valar failed to destroy the foundations, or at
least all of the hiding places, in Thangorodrim. The Balrog
problem thus seems more like a mistake (and there is even
a question of whether the LTR Moria Balrog had actually been
imprisoned). Sauron, on the other hand, was actually
captured (in some form or another), and then let go by
Eonwe. If the Balrogs were also captured, and released,
that would be bad, but I don't know if this is said anywhere.
Perhaps you are right that my interpretation is overly
harsh of Eonwe, who may simply have been acting based
on a knowledge of his own limits (something obviously
very important to Tolkien: see Saruman and Denethor).
However, this just moves the blame directly to the Valar,
who evidently were too lazy to send Tulkas out to whip
Suaron's butt when he started to cause trouble in the
2nd age.
Your conceptions of repentence are interesting, I
think. And you are right that Sauron is the one
engaging in the evil of the 2nd and 3rd age. However,
Sauron HAD been corrupted by Morgoth, and it may be
possible to interpret that he could not act other
than he did, given Morgoth's influence. And I
simply can't absolve the Valar from all blame,
when for 6000 years of Sauron's evil all they did
was send the Istari.
On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Rick wrote:
> First of all, I don't think it's fair to characterize Eonwe's
> actions as either 'screwing up' or 'trusting' Sauron. "... it
> was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon those of his own
> order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there
> received the judgement of Manwe."
> Eonwe was herald of Manwe, and the text does not specify
> whether Eonwe trusted Sauron's claims of repentance but simply
> hadn't the power to grant pardon, or knew that since he didn't
> have such authority, his own estimation of Sauron's claims were,
> in any event, irrelevant, and so wisely commanded Sauron to
> return to Manwe for judgement.
Tatjana Gajic
>
> I think the Valar were naive in some ways. Remember that they
> actually pardoned *Morgoth* the first time around:
>
>Snip snip...
> I think the key line is "Manwë was free from evil and could not
> comprehend it", and I think all the Valar and Maiar shared that
> in some degree. And of course Eonwe was leading an army that was
> doubtless eager to demobilize (return to Valinor); also he had to
> be concerned with restabilizing Middle-earth after the northwest
> had dropped below the sea.
The idea that Manwe couldn't comprehend evil I can understand
in the case you describe...but you would think that after
Morgoth and Ungoliant destoryed the trees, and killed so
many people in Middle Earth, he would have gotten the idea!
Perhaps I shouldn't have blamed Eonwe so much, given all
his other problems (the Silmarils and the curse as well
as what you mention). But I can't believe that when
Sauron reappeared, the Valar just sat back and did
nothing. At some level, Sauron was their responsibility:
they let him go, AND he was corrupted by Morgoth, one of
their own.
>
> Yes, I think Eonwe bungled. It was probably a mistake to just
> trust Sauron to get to Valinor on his own. On the other hand,
> even though Sauron had been Morgoth's right-hand Maia for
> centuries, that's not very long to the Valar, and Morgoth's
> defeat seemed complete. Eonwe may have judged that Sauron could
> do no real harm (as Gandalf and Frodo thought of Saruman, 6000
> years later).
Hmm...did Gandalf really think Saurman would do no harm, or was
he creating a test for Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, to
ensure that they could police their own borders, and
deal with Saruman themselves? Anyway, Eonwe must have been
hot stuff to equate a post-Morgoth Sauron to a post-Isengard
Saruman!
Tatjana
Rick
this. I too, think the Valar more responsible, if any
responsibility or blame be issued (and not to Tolkien, who after
all, needed something of a conflict to move the plots along,
after all, how much do we read about the elves who came to Aman
and just stayed? ;)
Anyway, the passage I recall was something that seems to be an
effort on Tolkien's part to explain why Thangorodrim was not
completely destroyed, nor all the evils rooted out. They feared
to rend the earth as much as they had done in times past, since
they had foresight that the Elves would come soon, but knew not
when -- in fact it seems the elves were already there, w/o their
knowledge. Now, this refers to the first age, and not the
second, but perhaps a similar hesitance to do more than they
did, seeing that so many lands were already falling under the sea
at the end of the 2nd age as it were. All of this assumes that
the powers of the Valar were not typically like those of Tulkas,
who could just wrestle evil to the ground. If that's the case,
I'm still left wondering whether Eonwe even had the power to
constrain Sauron when he pleaded repentance. I still don't know
whether he was captured, turned himself in, or what. I just
think that if Eonwe were directly to blame, from an excess of
good will, mixed with some niavete, I think Tolkien would have
made it clearer, especially in light of his fondess for such
themes in LoTR. I imagine he would have given us more about how
sad and tragic a thing it was that Eonwe's good will were turned
to such evil, etc. Then again, the Silmarillion *was* an
unfinished work ;)
"Tatjana Gajic" <t...@duke.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.91.100022...@godzilla4.acpub.du
ke.edu...
>
>
{snips}
Rick
character, to Tulkas, do you know of any text that tells us more
about Eonwe, what sort of Maiar he was? Even an Maiar of Aule,
who I believe was the one who forged the chains that held Melkor,
might not have had the capacity to chain Sauron, and I always
suspected Eonwe was more like Manwe than Aule anyway.
Admittedly, we seem to have little to go on, and I suppose if I
were Eonwe, I'd have asked Sauron to voluntarily submit to being
taken into custody, etc. I suppose had Tolkien written this bit
out further, we would be likely to see Sauron using a charming
voice and countenance to deceive Eonwe about his true repentance,
and so Eonwe might have failed to deal as strictly with Sauron as
was warrented. But if so much hinged on Eonwe's decision, I
would expect more from Tolkien on the matter, and alas, it was an
unfinished work, and I know of nothing that suggests Tolkien
meant to flesh out that part of the history in any more detail.
However, if he did, we would also need to know more about the
conditions which brought Sauron before Eonwe in the first place.
Was he captured, did he turn himself in, what reasons do we know
of to suspect that Sauron did in truth repent, if only briefly?
I suppose that without more information, I'm not willing to judge
Eonwe too harshly, and still leave the blame on Sauron.
<ap...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88tbkr$d2h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> This question has puzzled me for quite a while now. So much,
in fact,
> that I have decided to de-lurk and put in my two cents' worth
:D
>
{snip}
ap...@my-deja.com
"Rick" <kat...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> I never got the impression that Eonwe was similar in strength, or
> character, to Tulkas, do you know of any text that tells us more
> about Eonwe, what sort of Maiar he was? Even an Maiar of Aule,
> who I believe was the one who forged the chains that held Melkor,
> might not have had the capacity to chain Sauron, and I always
> suspected Eonwe was more like Manwe than Aule anyway.
No, I was assuming that Tulkas and perhaps even Orome were among those
who went to Middle Earth under the leadership of Eonwe (who in turn was
representing Manwe).
> Admittedly, we seem to have little to go on, and I suppose if I
> were Eonwe, I'd have asked Sauron to voluntarily submit to being
> taken into custody, etc.
Why? As I mentioned in my original post, when Morgoth was first
defeated, he was clapped in chains, brought before the feet of Manwe
(face down if I recall correctly), judged, and finally imprisoned. Yes,
he did fool Manwe into giving him parole and this turned out to be a
harsh lesson on the "nature of evil" for the Valar. The second time
Morgoth was defeated, they just cast him out of Arda. Period. No
trials or any such formalities. Seems like the Powers learned their
lesson well. I see absolutely no reason why Eonwe should have trusted
Sauron's word.
>I suppose had Tolkien written this bit
> out further, we would be likely to see Sauron using a charming
> voice and countenance to deceive Eonwe about his true repentance,
> and so Eonwe might have failed to deal as strictly with Sauron as
> was warrented. But if so much hinged on Eonwe's decision, I
> would expect more from Tolkien on the matter, and alas, it was an
> unfinished work, and I know of nothing that suggests Tolkien
> meant to flesh out that part of the history in any more detail.
> However, if he did, we would also need to know more about the
> conditions which brought Sauron before Eonwe in the first place.
> Was he captured, did he turn himself in, what reasons do we know
> of to suspect that Sauron did in truth repent, if only briefly?
> I suppose that without more information, I'm not willing to judge
> Eonwe too harshly, and still leave the blame on Sauron.
I don't think it matters how much information we have about Sauron. By
trusting Sauron to keep his word, Eonwe was basically passing judgement
on Sauron. He was basically saying that Sauron was in fact one of the
good guys now because only bad guys don't keep their word.
ap...@my-deja.com
"Rick" <kat...@mediaone.net> wrote:
<big snip>
> ...If that's the case,
> I'm still left wondering whether Eonwe even had the power to
> constrain Sauron when he pleaded repentance....
Yeah, too bad Luthien and Huan weren't there to do the job properly ;-)
ap...@my-deja.com
<Pine.SOL.3.91.100022...@godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu>,> >=20
> > I think the Valar were naive in some ways. Remember that they=20
> > actually pardoned *Morgoth* the first time around:
> >Snip snip...
> =20
> > I think the key line is "Manw=EB was free from evil and could not=20
> > comprehend it", and I think all the Valar and Maiar shared that=20
> > in some degree. And of course Eonwe was leading an army that was=20
> > doubtless eager to demobilize (return to Valinor); also he had to=20
> > be concerned with restabilizing Middle-earth after the northwest=20
> > had dropped below the sea.
>
> The idea that Manwe couldn't comprehend evil I can understand
> in the case you describe...but you would think that after
> Morgoth and Ungoliant destoryed the trees, and killed so
But he did! The second time around, Morgoth was kicked out of Arda
faster than you could say "Bilbo"
J Alex Wheeler
> >This is pretty shocking to me. It implies that most of the
> >evil events from the 2nd and 3rd Age (at least those perpetrated
> >by Sauron) came about because Eonwe screwed up by trusting
> >Sauron. Eonwe was unwilling or unable to capture Sauron
> >directly, and the Valar were for some unstated reason
> >unwilling to do so as well, although they were willing
> >to capture Morgoth.
>
As for why they didn't do it when they had the chance- Well- I guess Sauron
was pretty damn good at hiding. It's hard to find someone who can
shapechange, or even walk without form - this was before he lost the ability
in the downfall.
As for why the Valar did nothing later to end the evil of Morgoth's
Successor, all I can say is, thank Eru.
You remember what happened to most of the North when they did finally open
the can of whoopass? If they had unloaded on Morgoth's bootblack, it could
have completely obliterated the entire kingdom of Gondor. Not to mention
what might have happened if Sauron were able to put up any kind of sustained
defense.
And after the rings were forged, it was too late. The fate of the exiles was
tied up with Sauron and the ruling ring.
Blackheart
Russ
<ja...@arches.uga.edu> writes:
It should be pointed out that whatever Eonwe should have done, it really
shouldn't have mattered. The Elves would not have become vulnerable to Sauron
if the Mirdain had not gone into kahoots with Sauron to make the Rings of
Power. Equally, Sauron was no danger to the Numenoreans. They could kick his
ass from here to kingdom come. The Numenoreans made their own bed by desiring
what was against their nature. Sauron could not have caused their Fall if the
they hadn't planted their own seeds of destruction already.
Russ
J Alex Wheeler
> It should be pointed out that whatever Eonwe should have done, it really
> shouldn't have mattered. The Elves would not have become vulnerable to
Sauron
> if the Mirdain had not gone into kahoots with Sauron to make the Rings of
> Power. Equally, Sauron was no danger to the Numenoreans. They could kick
his
> ass from here to kingdom come. The Numenoreans made their own bed by
desiring
> what was against their nature. Sauron could not have caused their Fall if
the
> they hadn't planted their own seeds of destruction already.
>
> Russ
Ahh- so true. The lust for what should not/can not be had seems to be a
universal theme- where have I heard that before?
Blackheart
ap...@my-deja.com
>
Ok, so instead they send the Istari. They get a handful Maia
volunteers, weaken them to the point that they have only a vague notion
about their origins and what their task is as well as being overly
susceptible to things as greed, lust for power, etc., and send them off
for a couple thousand years on their own. Is anybody surprised that all
but one failed so miserably?
Crpnteron
the mightiest of arms in arda why didn"t he capture Sauron
Rick
passage in question gives us too little information to make such
judgements. I acknowledge I can't support this argument from
text, but I'm not certain Eonwe had the power to chain Sauron up,
he was herald, not warrior, among the Maiar that served the
Valar, and his powers may not have included coercive force,
Tolkien spends too much time exploring so many other kinds of
power, and questioning mere force as the principle form of power,
to let me too easily conclude Tolkien wrote all the Maiar as
powerful beings.
I also seem to recall that Sauron, being chief of Melkor's
servants, must have been a pretty powerful (in charm and guile,
as well as anything else, perhaps) character in his own right.
So if Eonwe only came upon Sauron after the Valar had returned
to Aman, then I'm inclined to accept Tolkien's statement that "
it was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon
Eonwe's actions, whether or not we can conlude Eonwe believed
Sauron, was beguiled by him, or didn't trust him, but simply
didn't have the power to tell Sauron to do anything but submit
himself for judgement. I assume that Eonwe also recognized that
to "receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long
servitude in proof of his good faith" was the only way to really
know if Sauron was truly repentant, and that voluntarily
returning would also be a sign of that good faith.
I'm not saying you must accept my interpretation, but I really
can't see my way to finding your conclusions compelling, at least
not without more text to support a further interpretation, one
way or another ;)
Rick
<ap...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88vm10$34l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
{snip}
> I don't think it matters how much information we have about
Sauron. By
> trusting Sauron to keep his word, Eonwe was basically passing
judgement
> on Sauron. He was basically saying that Sauron was in fact one
of the
> good guys now because only bad guys don't keep their word.
>
>
Rick
myself that the power Sauron had to exert to take on wolf form
limited his powers *as* a wolf, but that just didn't seem to cut
it. That Huan must have been one helluva pooch to take on
Sauron, and having eaten Aman brand puppy chow when he was young
hardly seems enough to account for it ;)
Of course, Luthien was a babe, so I totally buy her singing
Melkor into a slumber :))
Rick
<ap...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88vmbs$37h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <oaDs4.6450$Py3.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
> "Rick" <kat...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> <big snip>
>
> > ...If that's the case,
> > I'm still left wondering whether Eonwe even had the power to
> > constrain Sauron when he pleaded repentance....
>
> Yeah, too bad Luthien and Huan weren't there to do the job
properly ;-)
>
>
Mikeq1139
>It should be pointed out that whatever Eonwe should have done, it really
>shouldn't have mattered. The Elves would not have become vulnerable to
>Sauron
>if the Mirdain had not gone into kahoots with Sauron to make the Rings of
>Power. Equally, Sauron was no danger to the Numenoreans. They could kick
>his
>ass from here to kingdom come. The Numenoreans made their own bed by desiring
>what was against their nature. Sauron could not have caused their Fall
>if the
>they hadn't planted their own seeds of destruction already.
>
>Russ
I know what you are saying here, but I don't entirely buy it. The Numenoreans
were already screwing up before Sauron, no doubt, messing with Middle-earth,
and longing for longer lives. But I really don't think that it's clear that
without Sauron, Numenor would actually have attacked the Valar. I mean, that
has to be about the single dumbest thing done by anyone, individual or group,
during Ages 1-3. And the rings...well Sauron just screwed everybody up by
playing on their greed, desire, and fear. The greed, desire, and fear was
already there, but it seems to me Sauron was so powerful, he could basically
just control people.....Although the Numenoreans could perhaps have kicked his
ass (but maybe not) I get the feeling that, during the 2nd age, Sauron was like
a super-Saruman, and could convince practically anyone of anything. I still
think that Tulkas should have whooped his ass early on during the 2nd age.
Nobody except the Numenoreans cared about Middle-earth at that point anyway,
and they were just exploiting it, so if the Valar had messed it up a little,
just a couple of Pukel men would have gotten it!
Mike
David Wendelken
than some other form.
Rick <kat...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:Y%%s4.7399$Py3.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Rick
guess I always just kinda figured that with that stuff about only
being allowed to speak 3 times before his death, etc. that he was
indeed a creature, created in Aman perhaps, but still a creature,
and not a Maiar. If you can give me any more info on Huan, I'd
be grateful, esp. if it relates to why a Maiar would be limited
in his ability to speak, seeing as the Maiar that were eagles
seemed to be able to speak at will...
Perhaps it's just another mystery ;)
"David Wendelken" <dwen...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:892f9v$m...@journal.concentric.net...
Mark Wells
>Hmm, good points, but I still have the nagging feeling that the
>passage in question gives us too little information to make such
>judgements. I acknowledge I can't support this argument from
>text, but I'm not certain Eonwe had the power to chain Sauron up,
I think the Valaquenta says that "none are mightier in arms" than
Eonwe, or something.
>he was herald, not warrior, among the Maiar that served the
>Valar, and his powers may not have included coercive force,
>Tolkien spends too much time exploring so many other kinds of
>power, and questioning mere force as the principle form of power,
>to let me too easily conclude Tolkien wrote all the Maiar as
>powerful beings.
> I also seem to recall that Sauron, being chief of Melkor's
>servants, must have been a pretty powerful (in charm and guile,
>as well as anything else, perhaps) character in his own right.
IIRC Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar, though not the
strongest or the wisest.
> So if Eonwe only came upon Sauron after the Valar had returned
>to Aman, then I'm inclined to accept Tolkien's statement that "
>it was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon
>those of his own order" and that alone is sufficient to explain
>Eonwe's actions, whether or not we can conlude Eonwe believed
>Sauron, was beguiled by him, or didn't trust him, but simply
>didn't have the power to tell Sauron to do anything but submit
>himself for judgement. I assume that Eonwe also recognized that
>to "receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long
>servitude in proof of his good faith" was the only way to really
>know if Sauron was truly repentant, and that voluntarily
>returning would also be a sign of that good faith.
I suppose that's the test, isn't it? OK, so Eonwe let Sauron go so
that the Valar would know if he was really serious about his
repentance. Isn't that a rather reckless way to test the sincerity of
a powerful sorcerer? They should have at least had someone spying on
him, with enough backup (a dozen or so Maiar ready to self-incarnate)
to toast Sauron immediately if he started making trouble.
Mark Wells
>He was? I'm not disagreeing, but I'd never heard that before. I
>guess I always just kinda figured that with that stuff about only
>being allowed to speak 3 times before his death, etc. that he was
>indeed a creature, created in Aman perhaps, but still a creature,
>and not a Maiar. If you can give me any more info on Huan, I'd
WRONG! DEATH, DESTRUCTION, MAYHEM!
"still a creature, and not a MAIA."
The singular is 'Maia'. The plural is 'Maiar'.
This is now my pet peeve. I'm going to keep correcting this error
until everyone on the Internet figures it out.
David L.
David Wendelken <dwen...@concentric.net> wrote in message news:892f9v$m...@journal.concentric.net...
> Huan was a maia just as Sauron was. He just existed in "dog form" rather
> than some other form.
>
Can you cite something to back this up?
There must be another class of rational creature that Middle-earth's talking animals fit into.
Dave
Russ
Wells) writes:
>IIRC Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar, though not the
>strongest or the wisest.
Nothing like that is said explicitly. It is said he was much stronger than the
Istari; however, we don't know his power relationship to maia such as Eonwe.
One of my mantras is reminding that power is avery broad thing in Middle Earth
and its a mistake to read power to mean only fighting power. Remember that
Gil-galad and Elendil were able to "kill" Sauron. Huan defeated Sauron.
Surely, Eonwe, the "greatest in arms in Middle-earth, could defeat Sauron in
battle. Sauron was originally a maia of Aule; thus his power lay in craft and
subcreation. While Eonwe could whip Sauron in a fight, Sauron could run rings
(so to speak) around Eonwe when it came to building and craft.
<snip>
Russ
Russ
<dwen...@concentric.net> writes:
>Huan was a maia just as Sauron was. He just existed in "dog form" rather
>than some other form.
I don't know of any explicit textual support for that statement. However, it
seems to me that a maia would be able to speak at will.
Russ
Russ
(Mikeq1139) writes:
>I know what you are saying here, but I don't entirely buy it. The
>Numenoreans
>were already screwing up before Sauron, no doubt, messing with Middle-earth,
>and longing for longer lives. But I really don't think that it's clear that
>without Sauron, Numenor would actually have attacked the Valar. I mean, that
>has to be about the single dumbest thing done by anyone, individual or group,
>during Ages 1-3. And the rings...well Sauron just screwed everybody up by
>playing on their greed, desire, and fear. The greed, desire, and fear was
>already there, but it seems to me Sauron was so powerful, he could basically
>just control people
This part always troubled me since it conflicts with Tolkien's ideas about free
will. While much of Tolkien's comments about domination of will dealt with the
domination of already "bad" or at least flawed people (i.e. the fully fallen
Easterlings and Southrons, Smeagol, etc), it seems clear that, for example,
some of the Nazgul were originally good men who could simply not withstand the
effects of their Ring. It's almost like a possession. In Letters, Tolkien
wrote that regular beings had no chance to win a direct confrontation of
exertion of will by Evil.
>.....Although the Numenoreans could perhaps have kicked
>his
>ass (but maybe not)
It was clear to me that they could. Sauron's armies took one look at the
Numenorean landing force and ran away. Remember, even the remnant Noldor and
Dunedain at the end of the Second Age defeated Sauron's armies. Numenor at
it's hight was infinitely more powerful than the Last Alliance. Remember, that
Tolkien tells us that Ar-Pharazon's army was a real threat to Aman.
I get the feeling that, during the 2nd age, Sauron was
>like
>a super-Saruman, and could convince practically anyone of anything. I still
>think that Tulkas should have whooped his ass early on during the 2nd age.
>Nobody except the Numenoreans cared about Middle-earth at that point anyway,
>and they were just exploiting it, so if the Valar had messed it up a little,
>just a couple of Pukel men would have gotten it!
And some Elves.
Russ
>
Ermanna
David Wendelken wrote:
> Huan was a maia just as Sauron was. He just existed in "dog form" rather
> than some other form.
<shnip> Where did you get that? I thought he was just an intellegent
dog.
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Huan the hound
[snip]
>it. That Huan must have been one helluva pooch to take on
>Sauron, and having eaten Aman brand puppy chow when he was young
>hardly seems enough to account for it ;)
Not only that, but more wisdom comes from the three times Huan spoke than
ever came from some more lofty characters. :-)
--
Huan, the hound of Valinor
But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor
beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by
the throat and pinned him down.
PaulB
<kat...@mediaone.net> writes:
>He was? I'm not disagreeing, but I'd never heard that before. I
>guess I always just kinda figured that with that stuff about only
>being allowed to speak 3 times before his death, etc. that he was
>indeed a creature, created in Aman perhaps, but still a creature,
>and not a Maiar. If you can give me any more info on Huan, I'd
>be grateful, esp. if it relates to why a Maiar would be limited
>in his ability to speak, seeing as the Maiar that were eagles
>seemed to be able to speak at will...
>
>Perhaps it's just another mystery ;)
The only thing we know about Huan's origin is:
"He was not born in Middle Earth, but came from the blessed realm; for Oromė
had given him to Celegorm, before evil came."
I really doubt that any Maiar would be considered property of a Valar, (i.e. a
slave) allowing the Valar to give the Maiar away as a gift to a mere elf.
Therefore it is _highly_ unlikely that Huan was a Maiar.
If I do say so myself, (and I do!,) there is much to much ease in assuming that
anything coming from the Undying Lands is automatically Ainu. Huan may very
well just be a hound that Oromė found & adopted early on and trained especially
well.
PB
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that
die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal
out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT
Mark Wells
>Nothing like that is said explicitly. It is said he was much stronger than the
>Istari; however, we don't know his power relationship to maia such as Eonwe.
>One of my mantras is reminding that power is avery broad thing in Middle Earth
>and its a mistake to read power to mean only fighting power. Remember that
>Gil-galad and Elendil were able to "kill" Sauron. Huan defeated Sauron.
And it's implied that Huan could have killed Sauron, but chose not
to. (At least Luthien said he could. Maybe she was bluffing.)
>Surely, Eonwe, the "greatest in arms in Middle-earth, could defeat Sauron in
I almost said something about this, but I couldn't find a clear way to
make my point. Since Eonwe was "the greatest in arms in Middle-earth",
and Olorin was the wisest of the Maiar, Sauron's power (just barely less
than that of the Valar) must lie in other areas. Certainly part of this
is his 'craft': not just in crafting physical things (though he's very
good at that) but in devising plans and strategies. He's also very
persuasive, as we saw with Numenor, and he might have simply talked his
way out of getting sliced and diced by Eonwe. In this way, he really
would be stronger than Eonwe.
I could see him arguing like this:
"I suppose you _could_ force me to go to Manwe to be judged, but then how
would you know that I've really repented? Wouldn't it be better if you
let me go of my own free will, as a sign of good faith? I'm still
learning to humble myself and accept the judgment of the Valar, and I
don't think you'd help that process by dragging me to them in chains.
After all, if we can't learn to trust each other, there's no hope for me
at all..."
Conrad Dunkerson
news:20000224101736...@nso-ba.aol.com...
> In article <892f9v$m...@journal.concentric.net>, "David Wendelken"
> <dwen...@concentric.net> writes:
>> Huan was a maia just as Sauron was. He just existed in "dog
>> form" rather than some other form.
> I don't know of any explicit textual support for that statement.
> However, it seems to me that a maia would be able to speak at
> will.
Pretty much ditto for Rick, PaulB, Ermanna and David L... but as it
happens, there IS some textual support for the idea that Huan was a
maia.
"Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume the
forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar -
emissaries of Manwe."
MR, Myths Transformed VIII
Conversely, on the very next page, he conjectured;
"The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they
were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level -
but they still had no fear."
Other references;
"Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the
Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser
living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)"
Note 4 from chapter above
"Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near
Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the
Noldor in extreme cases."
MR, The Annals of Aman (section 6 Notes: ~169)
Raven
nyhedsmeddelelse:38b4f742...@news.pc-intouch.com...
> The singular is 'Maia'. The plural is 'Maiar'.
> This is now my pet peeve. I'm going to keep correcting this error
> until everyone on the Internet figures it out.
Excellent! Now I know how to tease you sillies if I have a minds.
Just too bad I will find it as difficult to write 'Maiar', 'Valar'
and 'Istari' as the singular forms as you have reading it...
Hrafn.
Mikeq1139
>>his
>>ass (but maybe not)
>
>It was clear to me that they could. Sauron's armies took one look at the
>Numenorean landing force and ran away. Remember, even the remnant Noldor
>and
>Dunedain at the end of the Second Age defeated Sauron's armies. Numenor
>at
>it's hight was infinitely more powerful than the Last Alliance. Remember,
>that
>Tolkien tells us that Ar-Pharazon's army was a real threat to Aman.
You are probably right about this (although, to be clear, I'm talking
specifically about destroying SAURON, not his army, which I assume would be a
tougher task for a bunch of men, however exalted)...I just feel like we don't
have that much information about the Numenorian army. Presumably, their power
WAS in arms/subcreation (of some sort: perhaps they could make quite
sophisticated weapondry if they could create the Palantir and Orthanc. I
imagine making armor out of the Orthanc material would made for a bad-ass suit
of mail). On the other hand, perhaps their army was simply like having 10,000
Aragorns, and when Sauron's orc/troll (presumably) army saw those stern,
iron-willed, pissed-off looking guys, they just took off. Anyway, what I mean
to say is that Sauron's power was more in controlling others than in pure arms.
To use the Morgoth example: Melkor was the "most powerful" Vala (whatever that
means)...but after he placed some of his power into his creations, and used
more of it to control other creatures, he became substantially weaker (so much
so that he had a hard time in single combat with an ELF). Perhaps Sauron's
power worked similarly: his strength was in controlling others, not arms, and
it was the strength-of-will present in those 10,000 Aragorns that simply broke
his hold over his army. However, whether or not the Numenoreans could have
defeated Sauron (could he have not gone invisible again? I mean, it IS men vs
Maia) to me is almost irrelevant. Sauron's power of control was simply too
much for them to handle, even if in arms, he was more of a wimp. I mean, he
obviously realized quite quickly, once he saw the Numenoreans, how he could
defeat them through talk. It seems like Sauron's ring worked similarly: he
placed his power into the ring, after which he could control other ringbearers,
or at least sow dissension/greed amongst the dwarves/elves.
This is kind of rambling...my point is, as others have said, that there are
different kinds of power in ME, and that arms are almost the least of it.
Having the power to control others (Sauron, Morgoth, Saruman), or having it but
refusing to use it (Gandalf, Elrond presumably (what WAS Elrond doing in
Rivendell?)) seems to be more significant. And whether men could defeat/kill a
Maia is also at stake.
Mike
Michael Martinez
(Mikeq1139) wrote:
I have no idea of who wrote what in this part of the thread due to improper
citation.
>>>.....Although the Numenoreans could perhaps have kicked
>>>his ass (but maybe not)
>>
>>It was clear to me that they could. Sauron's armies took one look at the
>>Numenorean landing force and ran away. Remember, even the remnant Noldor
>>and Dunedain at the end of the Second Age defeated Sauron's armies. Numenor
>>at it's hight was infinitely more powerful than the Last Alliance. Remember,
>>that Tolkien tells us that Ar-Pharazon's army was a real threat to Aman.
>
>You are probably right about this (although, to be clear, I'm talking
>specifically about destroying SAURON, not his army, which I assume would be a
>tougher task for a bunch of men, however exalted)...I just feel like we don't
>have that much information about the Numenorian army. Presumably, their power
>WAS in arms/subcreation (of some sort: perhaps they could make quite
>sophisticated weapondry if they could create the Palantir and Orthanc.
[snip]
The Last Alliance of Elves and Men fielded the greatest army Middle-earth had
ever seen since the breaking of Thangorodrim. "Of the Rings of Power and the
Third Age" says that no greater army was mustered since the War of Wrath, so
Ar-Pharazon's armies, though great, were not as large as the Last Alliance's
armies (and Elendil had seen Ar-Pharazon's armada).
The palantiri were made by the Elves, not the Dunedain, and Orthanc was simply
carven out of the mountainside.
The Numenorean armies did make use of auxiliary forces (much like the Roman
army did) from local (Middle-earthian) peoples. After the Downfall, many of
the Numenoreans in Middle-earth served Sauron and doubtless swelled his
armies.
--
\\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy in...@xenite.org
\\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/
//\\ Xena Channel: http://www.xenite.org/channels/xena.html
// \\ENITE.org....................................................
Kevin Nelson
Mikeq1139 <mike...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>.....Although the Numenoreans could perhaps have kicked
>>>his
>>>ass (but maybe not)
>>
>>It was clear to me that they could. Sauron's armies took one look at the
>>Numenorean landing force and ran away. Remember, even the remnant Noldor
>>and
>>Dunedain at the end of the Second Age defeated Sauron's armies. Numenor
>>at
>>it's hight was infinitely more powerful than the Last Alliance. Remember,
>>that
>>Tolkien tells us that Ar-Pharazon's army was a real threat to Aman.
>
> On the other hand, perhaps their army was simply like having 10,000
>Aragorns, and when Sauron's orc/troll (presumably) army saw those stern,
>iron-willed, pissed-off looking guys, they just took off. Anyway, what I mean
I tend to think that Ar-Pharazon had a large amount of fairly powerful
naval artillery at his disposal and that may have been the decisive factor.
Numenorean firearms are not even alluded to in any of Tolkien's later writings
but neither are they specifically contradicted so I think we can still
regard his earlier writings on the subject as canonical. I am guessing
that by Ar-Pharazon's time the Numenoreans had firearms around what we
might think of as a fifteenth-century level. The Numenoreans could have
invented them only in the last few centuries of their history, which
lasted a total of around thirty-five centuries. I can easily imagine
that the knowledge of how to make them was lost in the Downfall and that
afterwards the realms in exile associated firearms with Ar-Pharazon's
evil and so never even tried to re-invent them.
Kevin
Kevin Nelson
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Said t...@duke.edu (Tatjana Gajic) in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>[After the War of Wrath, Sauron humbled himself before Eonwe who
>told him to go to Valinor for judgment by the Valar, but Sauron
>didn't go.]
>>This is pretty shocking to me. It implies that most of the
>>evil events from the 2nd and 3rd Age (at least those perpetrated
>>by Sauron) came about because Eonwe screwed up by trusting
>>Sauron. Eonwe was unwilling or unable to capture Sauron
>>directly, and the Valar were for some unstated reason
>>unwilling to do so as well, although they were willing
>>to capture Morgoth.
>
>comprehend it", and I think all the Valar and Maiar shared that
>in some degree. And of course Eonwe was leading an army that was
>doubtless eager to demobilize (return to Valinor); also he had to
>be concerned with restabilizing Middle-earth after the northwest
>had dropped below the sea.
>
>Yes, I think Eonwe bungled. It was probably a mistake to just
>trust Sauron to get to Valinor on his own. On the other hand,
>even though Sauron had been Morgoth's right-hand Maia for
>centuries, that's not very long to the Valar, and Morgoth's
>defeat seemed complete.
Here's my theory. It is clear that all the Valar and Maiar
originally had the power to "cast aside" their bodies at will and
exist as pure spirits. Morgoth himself had lost that power by
the end of the First Age because he dissipated so much of his
power into all sorts of other things. But I am guessing that
Sauron still had the power, though after another Age he would
lose it too.
So I'm guessing that even if Sauron was weaker than
Morgoth, he had a much easier time running away. Disembodied
spirits don't sound very easy to catch. My scenario is that
Sauron escaped into the East when Morgoth was captured.
Then, later on, while the force from Aman was preparing to
go back over the Sea, he showed himself to Eonwe in
disembodied form. They could communicate, but Eonwe would
surely have had a hard time catching him no matter how
hard he had tried. Sauron acts repentant and Eonwe
commands him to return back over the Sea, but Eonwe can't
force him to do anything. Then Sauron flees again, leaving
Eonwe uncertain about his intentions.
Sauron was surely very much in hiding for several
centuries after that and the Valar could only have found
him by turning Middle-Earth upside down. I don't think it's
fair to blame them for showing some restraint.
Kevin
Kevin Nelson
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>The Last Alliance of Elves and Men fielded the greatest army Middle-earth had
>ever seen since the breaking of Thangorodrim. "Of the Rings of Power and the
>Third Age" says that no greater army was mustered since the War of Wrath, so
>Ar-Pharazon's armies, though great, were not as large as the Last Alliance's
>armies (and Elendil had seen Ar-Pharazon's armada).
Perhaps Ar-Pharazon's _army_ was not greater, but his total military
force still may have been greater. An armada, of course, is a _naval_ force
and the greatest strength of the Numenoreans was always naval. I am
guessing that Ar-Pharazon even had considerable naval artillery at his
disposal and that may have been what most terrified Sauron's troops, who
may have lacked much familiarity with firearms.
Kevin
Michael Martinez
> Perhaps Ar-Pharazon's _army_ was not greater, but his total military
>force still may have been greater. An armada, of course, is a _naval_ force
>and the greatest strength of the Numenoreans was always naval. I am
>guessing that Ar-Pharazon even had considerable naval artillery at his
>disposal and that may have been what most terrified Sauron's troops, who
>may have lacked much familiarity with firearms.
There is no evidence the Numenoreans used firearms (and I'm aware of the
pre-LOTR writings, which really have nothing to do with the LOTR-era
Numenoreans, except the legend of the Downfall was developed from the earlier
stories).
Numenorean missile weapons (according to "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields"
in UNFINISHED TALES) consisted of steel bows.
Mark Wells
>>.....Although the Numenoreans could perhaps have kicked
>>his
>>ass (but maybe not)
>
>It was clear to me that they could. Sauron's armies took one look at the
>Numenorean landing force and ran away. Remember, even the remnant Noldor and
>Dunedain at the end of the Second Age defeated Sauron's armies. Numenor at
>it's hight was infinitely more powerful than the Last Alliance. Remember, that
>Tolkien tells us that Ar-Pharazon's army was a real threat to Aman.
Yes, but at that point Sauron was designing their weapons. For all we
know, they might have been attacking Aman with cruise missiles. It
was a much more advanced army than the one that had captured Sauron in
the first place.
Russ
Wells) writes:
>>It was clear to me that they could. Sauron's armies took one look at the
>>Numenorean landing force and ran away. Remember, even the remnant Noldor
>and
>>Dunedain at the end of the Second Age defeated Sauron's armies. Numenor at
>>it's hight was infinitely more powerful than the Last Alliance. Remember,
>that
>>Tolkien tells us that Ar-Pharazon's army was a real threat to Aman.
>
>Yes, but at that point Sauron was designing their weapons. For all we
>know, they might have been attacking Aman with cruise missiles. It
>was a much more advanced army than the one that had captured Sauron in
>the first place.
>
If Sauron could have devised better weapons, wouldn't he have given them to his
army in the first place? Technologically, Sauron's armies were never better
armed than those of the Free Peoples.
Russ
David L.
Kevin Nelson <ktn...@linux10.ph.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:895art$e8f$1...@linux10.ph.utexas.edu...
> Here's my theory. It is clear that all the Valar and Maiar
> originally had the power to "cast aside" their bodies at will and
> exist as pure spirits. Morgoth himself had lost that power by
> the end of the First Age because he dissipated so much of his
> power into all sorts of other things. But I am guessing that
> Sauron still had the power, though after another Age he would
> lose it too.
> So I'm guessing that even if Sauron was weaker than
> Morgoth, he had a much easier time running away. Disembodied
> spirits don't sound very easy to catch. My scenario is that
> Sauron escaped into the East when Morgoth was captured.
> Then, later on, while the force from Aman was preparing to
> go back over the Sea, he showed himself to Eonwe in
> disembodied form. They could communicate, but Eonwe would
> surely have had a hard time catching him no matter how
> hard he had tried. Sauron acts repentant and Eonwe
> commands him to return back over the Sea, but Eonwe can't
> force him to do anything. Then Sauron flees again, leaving
> Eonwe uncertain about his intentions.
> Sauron was surely very much in hiding for several
> centuries after that and the Valar could only have found
> him by turning Middle-Earth upside down. I don't think it's
> fair to blame them for showing some restraint.
I agree with your general idea: Sauron simply doffed his physical form and disappeared. I don't,
however agree with the details.
The language in Of the Rings of Power seems to imply that Sauron was in Eonwe's custody when he
begged for pardon. Eonwe seems to have believed him, so Sauron was released on his own recognizance
to appear before the Judge at the appointed time. There is no indication of a struggle or that
Sauron eluded his captor. Once the appointed time to appear before Manwe came he changed his mind
and "hid himself".
Dave
Michael J. Quinn
>
> In article <20000224193409...@ng-fx1.aol.com>, mike...@aol.com
> (Mikeq1139) wrote:
>
> >
> >You are probably right about this (although, to be clear, I'm talking
> >specifically about destroying SAURON, not his army, which I assume would be a
> >tougher task for a bunch of men, however exalted)...I just feel like we don't
> >have that much information about the Numenorian army. Presumably, their power
> >WAS in arms/subcreation (of some sort: perhaps they could make quite
> >sophisticated weapondry if they could create the Palantir and Orthanc.
>
>
> The palantiri were made by the Elves, not the Dunedain, and Orthanc was simply
> carven out of the mountainside.
>
While the palantiri WERE made by the elves, I'm not sure what you
mean by saying "Orthanc was simply carven out of the mountainside."
Since the Ents could barely scratch it, it seems pretty clear that
1) it was made out of a superior material and/or
2) it was created in such a way as to be impregnable, something that
would seem magical to those in the 3rd age
Or do you mean to imply that creating Orthanc was nothing special?
Michael Quinn
Michael Martinez
Some stones are harder than others. The Ents were not supermen. They had
what we could call accelerated abilities which trees normally possess.
>Or do you mean to imply that creating Orthanc was nothing special?
Oh, it was special all right. BECAUSE the Ents couldn't hurt Orthanc itself,
we know that the Numenoreans had to have some special knowledge in order to
shape that mountain. But the stone itself was not something they made. Note,
too, that the outer wall of Minas Tirith appears to be made of a similar stone
(probably volcanic in content).
Rick
gates of Thangorodrim for an Age and a half, and be forced to
drink orc draughts to keep me awake so I may be given lessons in
Tolkien grammar, pronunciation, and spelling.
It would also help, when addressing us poor sots who make
mistakes, if you could *also* try and answer our questions. That
way, we'd know that you still cared about us, and were trying to
be helpful in the substance of our queries as well as in their
form. I freely and gladly stand correction, I had read the
distinction between the irregular (in english anyway) singular
and plural forms, but forgot. I can only beg excuse on the
grounds that Tolkienese is my 2nd language, and did not learn it
as a child, and so it's declensions and conjugations and such do
not come as 2nd nature to me.
Thanks for your correction,
Rick, the humbled
"Mark Wells" <ma...@pc-intouch.com> wrote in message
news:38b4f742...@news.pc-intouch.com...
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 06:07:11 GMT, "Rick" <kat...@mediaone.net>
wrote:
>
> >He was? I'm not disagreeing, but I'd never heard that before.
I
> >guess I always just kinda figured that with that stuff about
only
> >being allowed to speak 3 times before his death, etc. that he
was
> >indeed a creature, created in Aman perhaps, but still a
creature,
> >and not a Maiar. If you can give me any more info on Huan,
I'd
>
> WRONG! DEATH, DESTRUCTION, MAYHEM!
>
> "still a creature, and not a MAIA."
Rick
your conclusion that being given as a gift would not be
appropriate for a Maia, tho as we read in the Silmarillion, it
was hardly appropriate for Huan as well, as he seemed to know on
his own where he would be best bestowed, when he followed Luthien
;)
"PaulB" <pbac...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20000224133404...@nso-fu.aol.com...
Rick
Orome coming in a close 2nd?
In any event, I do like your point that Sauron may have come out
of his meeting with Eonwe having charmed his way thru, since that
did seem to be his first choice of accomplishing things, until he
lost the power to appear in a fair or pleasing form after the
taking of the Ring, if I recall correctly.
Rick
"Mark Wells" <ma...@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> wrote in
message news:slrn8bb9f...@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com...
> On 24 Feb 2000 15:17:35 GMT, Russ <mcr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
....
Mark Wells
>>Yes, but at that point Sauron was designing their weapons. For all we
>>know, they might have been attacking Aman with cruise missiles. It
>>was a much more advanced army than the one that had captured Sauron in
>>the first place.
>>
>
>If Sauron could have devised better weapons, wouldn't he have given them to his
>army in the first place? Technologically, Sauron's armies were never better
>armed than those of the Free Peoples.
The Numenoreans had the industrial base that Sauron needed to _build_
these weapons. The Haradrim and the Orcs didn't. Working by himself, he
might have built one cruise missile a month, and he probably had better
things to do with his time, like teaching the Elves to build Rings of
Power. But with the entire economy of Numenor backing him, he could build
a whole bunch of cruise missiles.
Russ
ma...@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:
Cruise missles, eh?
Russ
Michael Martinez
>On 25 Feb 2000 16:51:57 GMT, Russ <mcr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>If Sauron could have devised better weapons, wouldn't he have given them to
>>his army in the first place? Technologically, Sauron's armies were never better
>>armed than those of the Free Peoples.
>
>The Numenoreans had the industrial base that Sauron needed to _build_
>these weapons. The Haradrim and the Orcs didn't. Working by himself, he
>might have built one cruise missile a month, and he probably had better
>things to do with his time, like teaching the Elves to build Rings of
>Power. But with the entire economy of Numenor backing him, he could build
>a whole bunch of cruise missiles.
How do YOU know whether the Haradrim and the Orcs had the industrial base to
build technological weapons? Tolkien said the Orcs invented gupowder. He
also wrote that the army of Morgul destroyed the Rammas of the Pelennor Fields
with explosions. It sounds to me like they DID have the resources to build
advanced weapons. The Numenoreans, apparently, did not.
Kevin Nelson
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <895bhp$eak$1>, ktn...@linux10.ph.utexas.edu (Kevin Nelson) wrote:
>> Perhaps Ar-Pharazon's _army_ was not greater, but his total military
>>force still may have been greater. An armada, of course, is a _naval_ force
>>and the greatest strength of the Numenoreans was always naval. I am
>>guessing that Ar-Pharazon even had considerable naval artillery at his
>
>There is no evidence the Numenoreans used firearms (and I'm aware of the
>pre-LOTR writings, which really have nothing to do with the LOTR-era
>Numenoreans, except the legend of the Downfall was developed from the earlier
>stories).
Certainly there is no conclusive evidence, which is why I said I was
"guessing." But I think my guess is plausible. No writing from any period
explicitly _contradicts_ the idea of Numenorean firearms. Just because
Tolkien's early writings were inconsistent with his later ones in many
respects doesn't mean that the early versions and the late ones have
nothing to do with each other. Many details were preserved between
writings separated by decades of Tolkien's life. So if there was
something written early on that no later writing contradicts, I am
at least inclined to take it seriously.
>Numenorean missile weapons (according to "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields"
>in UNFINISHED TALES) consisted of steel bows.
Firearms and bows co-existed in our world for a considerable period
of time, so they certainly could have co-existed among the Numenoreans.
It is a historical fact that cannon became practical well before handheld
firearms did. So I tend to envision the Numenoreans of Ar-Pharazon's day
as having effective cannon, but not rifles.
Kevin
Conrad Dunkerson
news:WeBt4.8635$Py3.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> Thanks! that's the quote I'd forgotten about, and I agree with
> your conclusion that being given as a gift would not be
> appropriate for a Maia, tho as we read in the Silmarillion, it
> was hardly appropriate for Huan as well, as he seemed to know on
> his own where he would be best bestowed, when he followed Luthien
" In Tavros' friths and pastures green
had Huan once a young whelp been.
He grew the swiftest of the swift,
and Orome gave him as a gift
to Celegorm, who loved to follow
the great God's horn o'er hill and hollow.
Alone of hounds of the Land of Light,
when sons of Feanor took to flight
and came into the North, he stayed
beside his master. Every raid
and every foray wild he shared,
and into mortal battle dared.
Often he saved his Gnomish lord
from Orc and wolf and leaping sword.
A wolf-hound, tireless, grey and fierce
he grew; his gleaming eyes would pierce
all shadows and all mist, the scent
moons old he found through fen and bent,
through rustling leaves and dusty sand;
all paths of wide Beleriand
he knew. But wolves, he loved them best;
he loved to find their throats and wrest
their snarling lives and evil breath.
The packs of Thu him feared as Death.
No wizardry, nor spell, nor dart,
no fang, nor venom devil's art
could brew had harmed him; for his weird
was woven. Yet he little feared
that fate decreed and known to all:
before the mightiest he should fall,
before the mightiest wolf alone
that ever was whelped in cave of stone."
LoB, Lay of Leithian 2264-2295
Given the account of his birth I'd say in this conception Huan was
not a Maia. However, in other places JRRT specifically indicates
that he was. The nature/origins of all the speaking creatures
beyond the three races of the Eruhini was a question he struggled
with. The idea I consider the best 'fit' is that these special
creatures were the descendants of the least of Maiar, who had
permanently assumed physical forms as animals. They would thus be
animals themselves rather than immortal Maiar, but of exceptional
abilities (as Luthien was amongst Elves). What JRRT might
eventually have concluded is anyone's guess, but this explanation
fits the stories best to my mind.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:Pine.SOL.3.91.100022...@godzilla5.acpub.duke.edu.
..
> While the palantiri WERE made by the elves,
Feanor apparently.
> I'm not sure what you mean by saying "Orthanc was simply carven
> out of the mountainside."
Actually, my recollection is that the spike was there just south of
the mountains themselves and the Numenoreans somehow cut rooms and
passages within it. It could have simply been volcanic basalt, but
some of the passages seem to imply something even stronger than
that.
Michael Martinez
>In article <895ecd$dk_...@news.uswest.net>,
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>In article <895bhp$eak$1>, ktn...@linux10.ph.utexas.edu (Kevin Nelson) wrote:
>>> Perhaps Ar-Pharazon's _army_ was not greater, but his total military
>>>force still may have been greater. An armada, of course, is a _naval_ force
>>>and the greatest strength of the Numenoreans was always naval. I am
>>>guessing that Ar-Pharazon even had considerable naval artillery at his
>>>disposal...
>>
>>There is no evidence the Numenoreans used firearms (and I'm aware of the
>>pre-LOTR writings, which really have nothing to do with the LOTR-era
>>Numenoreans, except the legend of the Downfall was developed from the earlier
>>stories).
>
> Certainly there is no conclusive evidence, which is why I said I was
It would be plausible if there were evidence to support it.
>...No writing from any period explicitly _contradicts_ the idea of Numenorean
>firearms.
[snip]
Absence of denial doesn't prove or support anything. You might as well be
talking about the phased plasma rifles each member of the Fellowship was
carrying and using to pick off crows during the long silent periods on their
walk. After all, Tolkien doesn't say they DIDN'T have phased plasma rifles,
does he?
Mikeq1139
>>Michael J. Quinn <mjq...@duke.edu> wrote in message
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by saying "Orthanc was simply carven
>> out of the mountainside."
>
>Actually, my recollection is that the spike was there just south of
>the mountains themselves and the Numenoreans somehow cut rooms and
>passages within it. It could have simply been volcanic basalt, but
>some of the passages seem to imply something even stronger than
>that.
I still think (although there is no evidence) that it is more likely the
Numenoreans used Orthanc-like material (or Orthanc-like building techniques) to
make armor and weapons, than it is that the Numenoreans had cruise missles.
Maybe it's just me.....I just feel like the Numenorean's strength in arms has
to be explained somehow, and since they clearly had the ability to utilize very
advanced materials, that might partially explain it. Or perhaps it's enough
that they were steely-eyed mofos.
Mike
Robert Brady
>Absence of denial doesn't prove or support anything. You might as well be
>talking about the phased plasma rifles each member of the Fellowship was
>carrying and using to pick off crows during the long silent periods on their
>walk. After all, Tolkien doesn't say they DIDN'T have phased plasma rifles,
>does he?
Numenoreans at the time of the Downfall having basic artillery or cannons is
a hell of a lot more likely than the Fellowship having phased plasma rifles.
--
Robert
who will have to reinspect "Tal Elmar"
Michael Martinez
On what Tolkien citation do you base THAT conclusion?
Rick
early poem, and if
" in other places JRRT specifically indicates that he was [a
Maia?]." then what are we to make of the eagles, and just how
does a Maia go about becoming a 'mere' animal? Does it just get
bred out of them? Are all hounds, eagles, horses, and any other
animals people respected descended from Maia? Are *any* of the
olvar and kelvar *not* inspired by the natures and shapes taken
by these minor Maiar?
Too many questions, but thanks for the verse :)
Conrad Dunkerson
news:zj6u4.9$ri7.408@uchinews...
> Ok, this is driving me nuts. I can't for the life of me find the
> source (in HoMe) for "Of the Rings of Power". Maybe I'm just
> being blind or forgetful, but could someone fill me in? In
> particular (for this thread, anyway), I'm interested in knowing
> the exact source for the "Sauron and Eonwe" passage that so much
> of this discussion is based on. Anyone know?
My impression is that 'Of the Rings of Power' was copied into Silm
more or less exactly from the original essay 'The Rings of Power'.
References;
Letters #115 (pre 1948), #131 (synopsis) and #144
HoME X, pages 5-6 (other drafts of #115)
HoME VII, pages 144-146 (related texts)
I seem to recall other texts indicating that 'Rings' was
unaltered, but I'm not sure we know that for certain. Since the
issues at question surround Eonwe I'd suggest studying other
references to him... which I think are primarily consistent with
the brief bit in 'Rings'.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>you might want to check
>out the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ at:
>
>http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html
>
>[...] _Most_ of what I say there is accepted by _most_
>of the group. :)
One hopes that *all* of it is accepted by *some* of the group, or
did you write down stuff you yourself disagree with? :-)
Seriously, I agree that it's a terrific reference, particularly
in conjunction with William Loos' older FAQ. That's why I have
the URLs for both in my sig.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
Tolkien FAQs:
http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen)
http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos)
Inklings site list:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html
more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> Perhaps Ar-Pharazon's _army_ was not greater, but his total military
>force still may have been greater. An armada, of course, is a _naval_ force
>and the greatest strength of the Numenoreans was always naval.
True enough, but when the other side has no ships, an armada is
pretty much just a transport device for troops. The only
significance in war of the great Numenorean fleets that I can see
is that they could transport many soldiers at a time.
> I am
>guessing that Ar-Pharazon even had considerable naval artillery at his
>disposal and that may have been what most terrified Sauron's troops, who
>may have lacked much familiarity with firearms.
Whether Numenor had *any* kind of artillery I don't know, but I
don't think it mattered. The site of Sauron's first defeat in the
Second Age was a seven-day march from the landing at Umbar, so
the ships could hardly have been a factor, except as transports
to that landing.
Here's what the Akallabeth has to say:
"And men saw his sails coming up out of the sunset, dyed as with
scarlet and gleaming with red and gold, and fear fell upon the
dwellers by the coasts, and they fled far away. But the fleet
came at last to that place that was called Umbar, where was the
mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought. Empty
and silent were all the lands about when the King of the Sea
marched upon Middle-earth. For seven days he journeyed with
banner and trumpet, and he came to a hill, and he went up, and he
set there his pavilion and his throne; and he sat him down in the
midst of the land, and the tents of his host were ranged all
about him, blue, golden, and white, as a field of tall flowers.
Then he sent forth heralds, and he commanded Sauron to come
before him and swear to him fealty."
He don't know where the "hill" was, but it must have been fairly
far from Anduin; otherwise why not hand the troops closer to it
and keep the supply lines shorter.
Stan Brown
>distinction between the irregular (in english anyway) singular
>and plural forms, but forgot. I can only beg excuse on the
>grounds that Tolkienese is my 2nd language, and did not learn it
>as a child, and so it's declensions and conjugations and such do
>not come as 2nd nature to me.
This may help a bit, and I hope you'll find it deepens your
appreciation for Tolkien. Though he wrote /Lord of the Rings/, he
tells us, as a "tale", one very important source of his whole
mythology was the languages he created. Those who love his work
are responding, I believe and hope, to this element among all the
others.
N.B. Tolkien's languages, not language. Even the Elves had
several, of which Quenya was the "high" (like our Latin, not used
in ordinary speech) and Sindarin was one of the vernacular. The
Dwarves had Khuzdul, and you've heard Gimli say a few words in
that language. Men had a great many languages, including Adunaic
(spoken by the Gondorians, inherited from their Numenorean
founders). There was also the Black Speech, used by Sauron's
servants. In addition there was a sort of Esperanto, the Common
Speech a/k/a Westron, which many peoples used in addition to
their own language. (The Common Speech was not invented by any of
Tolkien's people, but grew naturally like the other languages.)
The Hobbits spoke only the Common Speech and had long forgotten
their original language.
Okay, on to the singulars and plurals. The words Vala(r), Maia(r)
and so on are Elvish: I can't remember whether they're Quenya or
Sindarin but it doesn't matter for this discussion.
-r is the regular plural sign in Sindarin and Quenya, and
corresponds to English -s. (-r is the plural sign in Danish,
Norwegian, and Swedish, by the way.)
one Vala, two Valar
one Maia, two Maiar
one Ainu, two Ainur
In English, a noun ending in an -s sound can't take another -s to
be plural, so it takes -es. In the same way, in Quenya (and
Sindarin, I think), if a noun already ends in an -r, you can't
just add another -r to make it plural, so instead you add -i:
one Istar ("wizard"), two Istari
The above are all regular, just as much as English house/houses
and fuss/fusses. Just as you are probably correct to use -s or -
es on an English noun (depending on its ending), you are probably
correct to use -r or -i on an Elvish noun (depending on its
ending). Or simply pick them up from context: it's hard to read
any of the /Silmarillion/ or /LotR/ without realizing that
"Valar" always takes a plural verb.
There are only a few truly irregular nouns known to us, like
"yrch" (plural of "orc"), which we hear on the flet near the
borders of Lorien.
Have a read (or another read) of the appendix on languages in
LotR. That may help to make this stuff less mysterious. Also, you
may enjoy the Web page that Steuard Jensen recommended in another
thread: <http://www.elvish.org/resources.html>.
Richard Drushel
: There are only a few truly irregular nouns known to us, like
: "yrch" (plural of "orc"), which we hear on the flet near the
: borders of Lorien.
I have always considered this one to be a linguistic joke,
considering that, when spoken aloud, it sounds like "yeccch!", an expression
of disgust (which the Elves clearly had for the Orcs). Sort of like Sam
Gamgee's somewhat-dim cousin Hal, Hal-fast or Half-Assed (though this one is
a visual pun, not spoken).
*Rich*
--
Richard F. Drushel, Ph.D. | "Aplysia californica" is your taxonomic
Department of Biology, Slug Division | nomenclature. / A slug, by any other
Case Western Reserve University | name, is still a slug by nature.
Cleveland, Ohio 44106-7080 U.S.A. | -- apologies to Data, "Ode to Spot"
David L.
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.13235756c...@news.mindspring.com...
> Said kat...@mediaone.net (Rick) in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >distinction between the irregular (in english anyway) singular
> >and plural forms, but forgot. I can only beg excuse on the
> >grounds that Tolkienese is my 2nd language, and did not learn it
> >as a child, and so it's declensions and conjugations and such do
> >not come as 2nd nature to me.
[snip]
> Okay, on to the singulars and plurals. The words Vala(r), Maia(r)
> and so on are Elvish: I can't remember whether they're Quenya or
> Sindarin but it doesn't matter for this discussion.
They are both Quenya.
> -r is the regular plural sign in Sindarin and Quenya, and
> corresponds to English -s. (-r is the plural sign in Danish,
> Norwegian, and Swedish, by the way.)
In Quenya plurals are made by adding the plural sign -r. For Sindarin plurals
see below.
>
> one Vala, two Valar
> one Maia, two Maiar
> one Ainu, two Ainur
>
> In English, a noun ending in an -s sound can't take another -s to
> be plural, so it takes -es. In the same way, in Quenya (and
> Sindarin, I think), if a noun already ends in an -r, you can't
> just add another -r to make it plural, so instead you add -i:
Only in Quenya.
> one Istar ("wizard"), two Istari
>
> The above are all regular, just as much as English house/houses
> and fuss/fusses. Just as you are probably correct to use -s or -
> es on an English noun (depending on its ending), you are probably
> correct to use -r or -i on an Elvish noun (depending on its
> ending). Or simply pick them up from context: it's hard to read
> any of the /Silmarillion/ or /LotR/ without realizing that
> "Valar" always takes a plural verb.
>
> There are only a few truly irregular nouns known to us, like
> "yrch" (plural of "orc"), which we hear on the flet near the
> borders of Lorien.
Yrch is the "regular" plural of orch. Orc is the anglicized form.
In Sindarin plurals were made by vowel changes, like English goose, pl. geese.
Some examples that can be gathered from LOTR and the SILMARILLION are as
follows:
Singular Meaning Plural
------------------------------------------
adan "a man" edain
amon "hill" emyn
annon "gate" ennyn
edhel "an Elf" edhil
golodh "a Noldo" gelydh
orod "mountain" ered
>
> Have a read (or another read) of the appendix on languages in
> LotR. That may help to make this stuff less mysterious. Also, you
> may enjoy the Web page that Steuard Jensen recommended in another
> thread: <http://www.elvish.org/resources.html>.
The best resource on the Web is Helge Faulskanger's Ardalambion page
<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/>.
Dave
Stan Brown
>Yrch is the "regular" plural of orch. Orc is the anglicized form.
>
>In Sindarin plurals were made by vowel changes, like English goose, pl. geese.
>Some examples that can be gathered from LOTR and the SILMARILLION are as
>follows:
>
>Singular Meaning Plural
>------------------------------------------
>adan "a man" edain
>amon "hill" emyn
>annon "gate" ennyn
>edhel "an Elf" edhil
>golodh "a Noldo" gelydh
>orod "mountain" ered
>>
><http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/>.
Thanks very much for the correction and the reference. Now I have
learned something too.
Michael Urban
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Okay, on to the singulars and plurals. The words Vala(r), Maia(r)
>and so on are Elvish: I can't remember whether they're Quenya or
>Sindarin but it doesn't matter for this discussion.
Yes it does! The following rule applies generally to Quenya:
>
>-r is the regular plural sign in Sindarin and Quenya, and
>corresponds to English -s. (-r is the plural sign in Danish,
>Norwegian, and Swedish, by the way.)
>
>one Vala, two Valar
>one Maia, two Maiar
>one Ainu, two Ainur
>
>In English, a noun ending in an -s sound can't take another -s to
>be plural, so it takes -es. In the same way, in Quenya (and
>Sindarin, I think), if a noun already ends in an -r, you can't
>just add another -r to make it plural, so instead you add -i:
>
>one Istar ("wizard"), two Istari
This rule applies generally to words ending in a consonant.
Atan/Atani, for example.
>The above are all regular, just as much as English house/houses
>and fuss/fusses. Just as you are probably correct to use -s or -
>es on an English noun (depending on its ending), you are probably
>correct to use -r or -i on an Elvish noun (depending on its
>ending). Or simply pick them up from context: it's hard to read
>any of the /Silmarillion/ or /LotR/ without realizing that
>"Valar" always takes a plural verb.
Part of the problem for the reader is, I think, that one rarely
sees the singular forms Ainu, Vala, or Istar in LotR or the Silmarillion.
As we see in Mr. Brown's posting, Lord of the Rings leaves all but
the language-geek readers with a rather fuzzy impression of "Elvish".
Even casual language-geek readers like me may get a wrong impression
from Lord of the Rings: for years, in spite of obvious evidence
to the contrary, I had the erroneous impression that more was "known"
about Sindarin than Quenya -- the reason being that all of the most
visible Elvish words in LotR and Sil are personal and place names,
which are given in Sindarin form.
>There are only a few truly irregular nouns known to us, like
>"yrch" (plural of "orc"), which we hear on the flet near the
>borders of Lorien.
As others have pointed out, the regular plural in Sindarin involves
a vowel shift Adan/Edain Orch/Yrch, etc. I believe I have heard that
this phenomenon stems from a regular -i plural finish in proto-Elvish
which affected the other vowels before the -i itself disappeared, but
recall no details.
Russ
<danybelinf...@zonnet.nl> writes:
>"...Eonwe, banner-bearer and herald of Manwe, whose might in arms is
>surpassed by none".
>He would have kicked Morgoth's ass, if they'd let him. (in a duel I mean).
>
Of course, that assumes Eonwe could get close to him. Before he dispersed his
power, Melkor could have simply opened up a chasm beneath Eonwe and buried him
in it without breaking a sweat.
I sort of liken it to that scene in Indiana Jones where that Arab swordsman
shows off his stuff, then Indy simply pulls out his revolver and shoots him
dead.
Russ
Russ
(Kevin Nelson) writes:
>>The Last Alliance of Elves and Men fielded the greatest army Middle-earth
>had
>>ever seen since the breaking of Thangorodrim. "Of the Rings of Power and
>the
>>Third Age" says that no greater army was mustered since the War of Wrath, so
>
>>Ar-Pharazon's armies, though great, were not as large as the Last Alliance's
>
>>armies (and Elendil had seen Ar-Pharazon's armada).
>
> Perhaps Ar-Pharazon's _army_ was not greater, but his total military
>force still may have been greater. An armada, of course, is a _naval_ force
>and the greatest strength of the Numenoreans was always naval. I am
>guessing that Ar-Pharazon even had considerable naval artillery at his
>disposal and that may have been what most terrified Sauron's troops, who
>may have lacked much familiarity with firearms.
>
Well, the quote appears to limit the statement to armies in Middle-earth. The
Great Armada went to Aman, not Middle-earth so I thin kit could be taken out
of that statement. Numenor itself appears to be in a geographic limbo. While
not part of the undying lands, it's western shore is within sight of Erresea.
We hear about Eldar from Erresea visiting Numenor but I don't recall any text
saying that Elves from Middle-earth visited Numenor. In other words, the
statement in Of the Rings of Power may not be applicable to Numeorean armies.
Logically, it seems to me that the Numenoreans must have been significantly
more powerful than the Last Alliance. In the Second Age, Sauron defeated
badly the Elves of Eriador during the War of the Elves and Sauron - and that
was a time before much of the Straight Path emigration occurred. The relief
force from Numenor appeared to be the primary army that defeated Sauron then
with Gil-galad's and Elrond's forces merely being in support.
By the time we get to the end of the Second Age, the Elves of Eriador are much
less powerful than they were just before the War of the Elves and Sauron.
Eregion was gone. Many Elves had gone over the Sea, etc. It is in this
context that Ar-Pharazon landed at Umbar and his army intimidated Sauron's to
such an extent that they wouldn't even take the field against them. This, mind
you, is when Sauron had the One Ring with all its will-dominating attributes
intact. Even with that, Sauron couldn't get his army to attack or even defend.
The texts tell us that Ar-Pharazon began an even greater armament under
Sauron's influence to attack Aman. Now, this was no idle threat. While
Ar-Pharazon had no hope of ultimate victory against the Valar on their own
ground, the texts clearly show that the Numenoreans were a real threat and
Valinor itself was threatened with ruin. Remember, that the Valinorean army
that fought the War of Wrath was in Aman. Yet the Numenoreans were a real
threat to it - so much so that the Valar had to say down their guardianship and
let Iluvatar handle it. And the Valinorean Elves were Calaquendi who hadn't
undergone the degeneration that affected the Noldor that were in Middle-earth
for so long.
Now, let's look at the Last Alliance. On the Elven side, the Eregion
contingent (which included both Noldor and Sindar) could not have been nearly
as strong as the Elven forces that were handily defeated by Sauron long before
in the War o the Elves and Sauron. On the other hand, the Last Alliance
included Silvan forces from Greenwood and Lorien; however, they were relatively
lightly armed. On the Human side, the Dunedain were a mere remnant of once
mighty Numenor. Elendil only arrived in Middle Earth with nine ships (compare
this with the horizon blocking sea of masts and sails that invested Aman).
Granted, Elendil could also draw on preexisting Faithful manpower from
Vinyalonde, Pelargir and Umbar and probably some allied "Middle Men". However,
it just doesn't seem the Dunedain force of the Last Alliance could compare to
Ar-Pharazon's army that humbled Sauron 200 years earlier or, for that matter,
the Numenorean relief force that freed Eriador 1500 years before.
I think then that the Of the Rings of Power statement can be taken to mean that
the Last Alliance Army (including Noldor, Sindar and Silvan Elves and Dunedain
and Middle Men and some Dwarves) was the most powerful Second Age army that
deployed in Middle Earth. However, Ar-Pharazon's Great Armada deployed not in
Middle-earth, but in Aman.
Russ
Michael Martinez
>Logically, it seems to me that the Numenoreans must have been significantly
>more powerful than the Last Alliance. In the Second Age, Sauron defeated
>badly the Elves of Eriador during the War of the Elves and Sauron - and that
>was a time before much of the Straight Path emigration occurred. The relief
>force from Numenor appeared to be the primary army that defeated Sauron then
>with Gil-galad's and Elrond's forces merely being in support.
The Last Alliance was composed of many armies. Numenor's armada probably only
used non-Numenoreans as slave rowers. And many Numenoreans fought for Sauron
against the Last Alliance, so it appears that Ar-Pharazon did not sap the
colonies of manpower.
>By the time we get to the end of the Second Age, the Elves of Eriador are much
>less powerful than they were just before the War of the Elves and Sauron.
[snip]
Incorrect. Gil-galad had not only recovered his strength, he had extended his
control over the northern lands even to the Vales of Anduin. Don't forget
that the Elves were still having lots of babies in the Second Age.
It's unlikely that Ar-Pharazon's armada was greater in size and power than the
Last Alliance.
And whatever the Numenoreans could accomplish technologically, the Elves and
Dwarves could probably have matched in one way or another.
Elve...@webtv.net
justice or into captivity....
first of all Eonwe, herald of manwe, strongest in arms of the maiar was
certainly capable of defeating sauron himself and of constraining him to
come along with him....but Sauron did in some form repent or at very
least sat dismayed at the defeat of the one he had followed.....and when
told to go to Aman for judgement well ask yourself this
question....would you willingly go to judgement should you have done
such great evil in the world? Sauron being a maiar and subject to the
will of the Valar was frightened of what the jugment might be and
knowing the full measure of evil he had done chose to flee from the
summons rather than have the courage to attone for his evil.....he had
human failings , though he was great in power he lacked courage and
honor , for he had long served a master that dealt with the world in
such a way that he never had need of these virtues....
perhaps if Illuvatar had restrained Melkor and the balrogs and Sauron
then no evil would have marred arda....so should not the blame be put
solely on to Eru?for did Illuvatar not know truely the heart of
Melkor?and of those that served him?
I think perhaps there can be no good with out evil ......no great deeds
dared without the danger of such evil everpresent where failure means
death or torment but victory bring glory and beauty.......
In Numenor the hearts of men had already turned from being contented to
lusting for eternal life...to say that the Valar could have stopped this
was folly , for they did send messengers who spoke with the king and the
people who would listen but their hearts were not turned.....is it not
then perhaps better that men should be broken and rebuilt in harsh labor
than to sit lustfully upon thrones of gold and turn their hearts to evil
and maddness..for in the end was it not maddness that the Men of the
west set out for valinor....true sauron had a hand in this but was it
not that people alone of the kindred of men that helped in the defeat of
the great evil? should they not have known him and his purposes?
Eonwe certainly is not to blame for mans folly....neither is Eru or any
of the Valari....but in the end Sauron was but little evil and the
Valari sent the istari...who were Maiar after all not to confront him
openly but rather to help men....to raise them from their petty beings
to kindle in them a flame of great deeds, in the end it worked and evil
was defeated at leas the evil without , for the evil within remains to
this day....such is the lot of men.
In retrospect if the Valar had put forth some effort and created a
comprohensive counseling center Sauron could have been turned from his
evil.....Even Melkor could have dealt with his ..."issues" and all would
have been good.....but alas the Valar had no knowledge of mental health
care so the world suffered......
at any rate i have rambled long enough and probably not answered a
single question you've asked so i'll let you believe what you may in the
end for I am not Eru and only he can know the truth in the end
...........
Kevin Nelson
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>
>The earlier writings are not connected with the later writings. There is
>nothing canonical with respect to MIDDLE-EARTH (the world of THE HOBBIT, THE
>LORD OF THE RINGS, and the later SILMARILLION) in the early Anadune stories.
>
Not connected? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how you can
possibly say that. There are many major points and literally thousands
of details that Tolkien preserved unchanged from the early writings
to the late ones. True, there are also many inconsistencies, some
of them undeniably major. So you can reasonably say that they
are not all that closely connected. But they _are_ connected to
some extent.
Think of it this way. If Tolkien makes some statement in the
twenties and then makes another statement on the same subject in
the fifties, there is at least a fifty percent chance he will
reaffirm his earlier statement. So if he makes some statement in
the twenties and then, later on, says nothing on the subject either
one way or the other, I deduce that his earlier statement has at
least a fifty percent chance of remaining valid.
Kevin
Kevin Nelson
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>True enough, but when the other side has no ships, an armada is
>pretty much just a transport device for troops. The only
>significance in war of the great Numenorean fleets that I can see
>is that they could transport many soldiers at a time.
First of all, it's not clear that Sauron had no ships
at his disposal. Secondly, naval bombardment can do a great
deal of damage to cities and military installations along
the coast.
>Whether Numenor had *any* kind of artillery I don't know, but I
>don't think it mattered. The site of Sauron's first defeat in the
>Second Age was a seven-day march from the landing at Umbar, so
>the ships could hardly have been a factor, except as transports
>to that landing.
>
>Here's what the Akallabeth has to say:
>
>"And men saw his sails coming up out of the sunset, dyed as with
>scarlet and gleaming with red and gold, and fear fell upon the
>dwellers by the coasts, and they fled far away. But the fleet
>came at last to that place that was called Umbar, where was the
>mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought. Empty
>and silent were all the lands about when the King of the Sea
>marched upon Middle-earth. For seven days he journeyed with
>banner and trumpet, and he came to a hill, and he went up,..."
Evidently I don't interpret the passage in quite the same
way you do. I am thinking Sauron had a considerable force right
on the coast. When it saw Ar-Pharazon's fleet coming, that force
scattered. Sauron had no substantial force inland in the first
place---"empty and silent were all the lands about."
So after the force Sauron had deployed on the coast scattered,
Ar-Pharazon was able to simply march inland without opposition.
Of course, I am sure that Sauron did have plenty of reserve
forces available far in the East. He may have considered deploying
them but obviously he decided to move to "Plan B."
Kevin
Mark Wells
Nelson) wrote:
> Not connected? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how you can
>possibly say that. There are many major points and literally thousands
He can say that because that's how he deals with the inconsistencies
between Tolkien's earlier and later writings. He compartmentalizes,
and says that Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and
rewrote it several times. (This is actually a pretty accurate
description of Tolkien's editing method.) Thus we can go through
Tolkien's garbage and find several mythologies, in various stages of
completion, that were all written from scratch and have no connection
to each other. The fact that Sauron goaded the Numenoreans into
attacking Valinor and getting wiped out in _every_ version of the
mythology is purely coincidental. Pay no attention to the man behind
the curtain.
The idea that Tolkien was trying to create a _coherent_ mythology (and
that the revisions contain incomplete versions that were later cleaned
up for consistency) is completely foreign to his mind. Don't try to
discuss it with him.
the softrat
wrote:
>How about the fact that many of the civilizations in Middle-earth
>developed gunpowder, which is the most difficult of the technologies
>needed to build a cannon?
Not so! Making a casing (the cannon itself) that can withstand the
stress of explosion is the most difficult technology. That is why
gunpowder existed long before cannon.
the softrat
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Communism is man's exploitation of man. Capitalism is just the
opposite.
the softrat
wrote:
>There are only a few truly irregular nouns known to us, like
>"yrch" (plural of "orc"), which we hear on the flet near the
>borders of Lorien.
Not quite. The plurals you cited were all Quenya. 'yrch' is Sindarin.
Sindarin fronts the primary vowel of the root to create a normal
plural. Sindarin collective plurals are formed by adding '-hoth'.
the softrat
>Thanks for your correction, Rick, the humbled
You damned well ought to be humble! You are ignorant and a kind soul
(apparently) wasted his time and effort to educate you in a small way.
Are you an American to be so cavalier about knowledge? Or just a
troll?
Michael Martinez
>
>In article <89bkn1$1uc...@news.uswest.net>,
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>
>>The earlier writings are not connected with the later writings. There is
>>nothing canonical with respect to MIDDLE-EARTH (the world of THE HOBBIT, THE
>>LORD OF THE RINGS, and the later SILMARILLION) in the early Anadune stories.
>>
>
>possibly say that.
[snip]
Because that's the way it is. Don't mistake Tolkien's theme borrowing for
revisionism of earlier texts. When he first devised the Numenor legend there
was no connection between Numenor and the Hobbits, no "Middle-earth" as
developed in THE HOBBIT and THE LORD OF THE RINGS.
Michael Martinez
>He can say that because that's how he deals with the inconsistencies
>between Tolkien's earlier and later writings. He compartmentalizes,
>and says that Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and
>rewrote it several times.
Translation: Mr. Wells is bored and wants a flame war, and therefore posts
lies about Mr. Martinez in order to provoke him once again.
Mr. Wells has done this before. His desire for mayhem is absurd.
Mark Wells
>In article <38bcdb11....@news.pc-intouch.com>, ma...@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>He can say that because that's how he deals with the inconsistencies
>>between Tolkien's earlier and later writings. He compartmentalizes,
>>and says that Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and
>>rewrote it several times.
>
>Translation: Mr. Wells is bored and wants a flame war, and therefore posts
>lies about Mr. Martinez in order to provoke him once again.
I'd really like to point out that your response to my statement certainly
qualifies as flame-bait, but let's not obscure the issue. Yes, I started
this.
>Mr. Wells has done this before. His desire for mayhem is absurd.
I'd also like to ask why it's always _everyone else_ who just wants to
pick fights and create chaos. This "desire for mayhem" must be pretty
widespread if we believe all your accusations.
What I really want is to reexamine your assumptions. It's hard to discuss
anything when any evidence that anyone (including me) introduces is
shouted down as 'irrelevant' according to your compartmentalized system.
Michael Martinez
>On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:20:48 GMT, Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>In article <38bcdb11....@news.pc-intouch.com>, ma...@pc-intouch.com (Mark
> Wells) wrote:
>>>He can say that because that's how he deals with the inconsistencies
>>>between Tolkien's earlier and later writings. He compartmentalizes,
>>>and says that Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and
>>>rewrote it several times.
>>
>>Translation: Mr. Wells is bored and wants a flame war, and therefore posts
>>lies about Mr. Martinez in order to provoke him once again.
>
>I'd really like to point out that your response to my statement certainly
>qualifies as flame-bait,
No, bub. What YOU posted was flame-bait (and just outright flammage).
You seem incapable of keeping discussions on a civil level.
>>Mr. Wells has done this before. His desire for mayhem is absurd.
>
>I'd also like to ask why it's always _everyone else_ who just wants to
>pick fights and create chaos.
Hey, feel free to show where I mentoned YOU first and characterized YOU in
some negative fashion before you mentioned ME.
The fact is that the only people I say start fights are just that: the only
people who start fights.
Whine, bitch, and lie all you wish you. You started it. If you don't like
this sort of thread, don't resort to smear tactics.
Mark Wells
Martinez) wrote:
>>I'd really like to point out that your response to my statement certainly
>>qualifies as flame-bait,
>
>No, bub. What YOU posted was flame-bait (and just outright flammage).
That's a very deft bit of editing. Let's look at the _rest_ of that
paragraph:
>>I'd really like to point out that your response to my statement certainly
>>qualifies as flame-bait, but let's not obscure the issue. Yes, I started
>>this.
There, are you satisfied?
>You seem incapable of keeping discussions on a civil level.
I've kept plenty of discussions on a civil level.
>>>Mr. Wells has done this before. His desire for mayhem is absurd.
>>
>>I'd also like to ask why it's always _everyone else_ who just wants to
>>pick fights and create chaos.
>
>Hey, feel free to show where I mentoned YOU first and characterized YOU in
>some negative fashion before you mentioned ME.
>
>The fact is that the only people I say start fights are just that: the only
>people who start fights.
It seems like anyone who disagrees with you stands a very good chance
of being accused of starting a fight. I'm not clear on why so many of
us love to start fights, but only with you. The reason couldn't be
that you're obnoxious and belligerent, could it?
>Whine, bitch, and lie all you wish you. You started it. If you don't like
>this sort of thread, don't resort to smear tactics.
I'd be much more sympathetic if you hadn't excised the two parts of my
post in which I tried to be diplomatic and steer this back onto a
discussion of substantive issues.
David L.
the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:0ohpbsogdni0dlcut...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:47:09 -0500, bra...@mindspring.com (Stan Brown)
> wrote:
>
> >There are only a few truly irregular nouns known to us, like
> >"yrch" (plural of "orc"), which we hear on the flet near the
> >borders of Lorien.
>
> Not quite. The plurals you cited were all Quenya. 'yrch' is Sindarin.
> Sindarin fronts the primary vowel of the root to create a normal
> plural. Sindarin collective plurals are formed by adding '-hoth'.
'-hoth', as in Orchoth, Balchoth, Lossoth, is usually reserved for evil peoples,
or at least peoples of dubious loyalties. The more neutral collective plural
endings are '-ath', Balrogath, Periannath, and '-rim', Edhelrim, Golodhrim,
Mithrim. Both -ath and -rim can be used of inanimate groups, like Argonath and
Thangorodrim.
Dave
Kevin Nelson
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <38bcdb11.189816295>, ma...@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>He can say that because that's how he deals with the inconsistencies
>>between Tolkien's earlier and later writings. He compartmentalizes,
>>and says that Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and
>>rewrote it several times.
>
>Translation: Mr. Wells is bored and wants a flame war, and therefore posts
>lies about Mr. Martinez in order to provoke him once again.
I don't want a flame war with anyone, but I do disagree
with you. Let me ask you the following question. Suppose you
had come across the writings in HoME for the first time without
any indication whether they were even all from the same author
or whether they had any connection whatever with each other.
Wouldn't you decide that (for example) the original tale of
Tinuviel and the later versions of the Beren and Luthien story
were recognizable as different versions of the same underlying
story? Substantially different, to be sure, with many
inconsistencies, but there would be _no way_ they could have
been written by two different authors who were each unaware
of the other's work.
Kevin
Michael Martinez
>In article <89k1jg$280...@news.uswest.net>,
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>In article <38bcdb11.189816295>, ma...@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>>He can say that because that's how he deals with the inconsistencies
>>>between Tolkien's earlier and later writings. He compartmentalizes,
>>>and says that Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and
>>>rewrote it several times.
>>
>>Translation: Mr. Wells is bored and wants a flame war, and therefore posts
>>lies about Mr. Martinez in order to provoke him once again.
>
> I don't want a flame war with anyone, but I do disagree
>with you.
What, exactly, are you disagreeing with? Are you also saying that I "can say
that because that's how [I deal] with the inconsistencies between Tolkien's
earlier and later writings"? Are you saying that I compartmentalize and say
that "Tolkien essentially threw the whole thing out and rewrote it several
times"?
I've never said any such thing.
If you don't want a flame war, then I suggest you not attribute to me things I
haven't said.
--
\\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy in...@xenite.org
\\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/
//\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/
// \\ENITE.org....................................................
Michael O'Neill
>
> Mea culpa, Mea magna culpa, may I be chained by the wrist to the
> gates of Thangorodrim for an Age and a half, and be forced to
> drink orc draughts to keep me awake so I may be given lessons in
> Tolkien grammar, pronunciation, and spelling.
> It would also help, when addressing us poor sots who make
> mistakes, if you could *also* try and answer our questions. That
> way, we'd know that you still cared about us, and were trying to
> be helpful in the substance of our queries as well as in their
> form. I freely and gladly stand correction, I had read the
> distinction between the irregular (in english anyway) singular
> and plural forms, but forgot. I can only beg excuse on the
> grounds that Tolkienese is my 2nd language, and did not learn it
> as a child, and so it's declensions and conjugations and such do
> not come as 2nd nature to me.
>
> Rick, the humbled
>
> news:38b4f742...@news.pc-intouch.com...
> > On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 06:07:11 GMT, "Rick" <kat...@mediaone.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > >He was? I'm not disagreeing, but I'd never heard that before.
> I
> > >guess I always just kinda figured that with that stuff about
> only
> > >being allowed to speak 3 times before his death, etc. that he
> was
> > >indeed a creature, created in Aman perhaps, but still a
> creature,
> > >and not a Maiar. If you can give me any more info on Huan,
> I'd
<irrelevant snipe snipped...>
Moving right along...
For me, there has always been a problem with the Silmarillion stuff. You
have to go that extra mile in the suspension of disbelief with
Tollkien's half resolved ideas, such as;-
The "inner fire" of elves -vs- the "strength of men".
Elves can take on Morgoth in single combat, can run dwarves and
Numenóreans into the ground [Legolas -vs- Aragorn and Gimli in LoTR],
yet much is made of the strength of men, of which Túrin Turamber I
suppose is the exemplar. But even that doesn't stand up against Beleg
Cúthalion.
Anyway back to your question. I've never been easy with Elvish
ecosystems, and animals are only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
Apparently along with the Firstborn, Secondborn, and Dwarves, there are
also distinct and seperate flora and fauna in the Elvish and Human
worlds. Superhorses like Rochallor, speaking hounds like Huan, both
presumably immortal [unless killed]; these exist alongside "mortal"
horses and hounds in Muddle-Earth, as it appears to me to be in the
Silmarillion.
What goes on? Do Mortal hounds hump Hounds from Valinor creating the
doggy equivalent of Half-Elven mutts? Is Rochallor's dalliance with
earthly mares the origin of the Mearas of Rohan [i.e. Shadowfax]?
Or are these *hounds* actually Maiars [snigger] who have a bestiality
thing.
We know there are grades of Maiar. Ents for example were spirits who
came down to shepherd Trees on Yavannas behalf. In the time of the LOTR,
several are getting Tree-ish whilst some Trees are getting mobile and
can "talk". Dogs and their masters perhaps, but it implies that Maiar
are not above taking *any* form they please, even hounds [Sauron becaome
a Vampire Bat for a while, remember...]
HTH
M.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:38DBCFFD...@indigo.ie...
> What goes on? Do Mortal hounds hump Hounds from Valinor creating
> the doggy equivalent of Half-Elven mutts? Is Rochallor's
> dalliance with earthly mares the origin of the Mearas of Rohan
> [i.e. Shadowfax]?
This seems like a reasonable explanation to me. Whether Huan,
Nahar (my preference for the progenitor of the Mearas), Thorondor,
and so forth were Maia or something else they seem the likely
ancestors of many of the special creatures encountered in Middle
Earth. It does not seem 'perverse' for a spirit permanently taking
the form and nature of a horse upon itself to interbreed with
horses of a 'mortal' nature... only if we anthropomorphicize the
spirits does this become something to snigger over. Suppose that
Nahar was a very minor Maia in the following of Yavanna... perhaps
the very one who conceived of the 'idea' of horses and sang them
into the Great Music... a thing of strength and speed which he
totally identified with, an expression of himself. That he should
become a horse in form is then only natural, and they are his
rightful children; both metaphysically AND physically.
> Dogs and their masters perhaps, but it implies that Maiar are not
> above taking *any* form they please, even hounds [Sauron becaome
> a Vampire Bat for a while, remember...]
JRRT wrote in some instances that Huan and Thorondor were Maia or
that minor Maia would take the forms of normal animals and plants
in Valinor. Imagine the mighty Maia who first embodied the form of
the indestructible dandelion. "Look upon my works ye mighty and
despair." :)