Could Melkor die?
Mr. K
This is a question that has been bugging me for quite some time. As I
see it, these are the main ideas of the two viewpoints:
VIEW 1 - MORGOTH CAN BE KILLED
1. Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth seven times, and then hew his
foot so that "he walked ever halt of one foot". Thus, he can be
wounded. (Counterpoint: Morgoth can be wounded, but not killed. This
doesn't really make sense, though.)
2. Luthien was able to put him to sleep with magic. It seems that if
he would succumb to that simple(?) magic, he could be killed.
(Counterpoint: Either Luthien's magic was not simple, or sleep and
death are two completely different issues.)
3. Tolkien himself wrote that "In the end, [Fionwe(>Eonwe)] will slay
Melko." (LT II) (Counterpoint: This was a very early outline.)
VIEW 2 - MORGOTH CANNOT BE KILLED
1. Why did the gods not kill Morgoth at the end of the First Age?
Instead, they stick him outside the doors of the world to come back
later for a final battle. (Counterpoint: I can't think of one.)
Anyone have things to add?
-Chris
Michael Martinez
In article <53bqsk$o...@hyperion.nitco.com>, ck...@mail.nitco.com (Mr. K)
wrote:
>This is a question that has been bugging me for quite some time. As I
>see it, these are the main ideas of the two viewpoints:
[snip]
>Anyone have things to add?
You are confusing two different stories with each other. The earlier story
dealt with "gods" who could, like the Norse gods, be killed.
The later story, from which THE SILMARILLION was drawn, dealt with Angelic
beings sent into the Universe from outside. They could "clothe" themselves
with physical bodies that could be "killed", but the beings themselves were
immortal. Some had the strength to reclothe themselves, others did not.
Gandalf, some people think, actually left the Universe when his body was
killed, but not everyone is convinced of this. However, one could view the
departure of the spirit from Ea (the Universe) as a form of death as well as
the destruction of the body.
Melkor was thrust through the Door of Night into the Timeless Void, which was
a region separate from the Timeless Halls where Iluvatar dwelt with the Ainur
and Ea, which is the Universe.
Although Tolkien borrowed many elements from the earlier story in writing the
later story, they are essentially two separate works, not intended to be
intermixed together. The second story was the author's attempt to retell the
original legends in a different style and context, and he wholly abandoned
some ideas while retaining others (of which some were altered considerably and
some were almost not altered at all).
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
CALVIN G. EXUM
On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Mr. K wrote:
>
> This is a question that has been bugging me for quite some time. As I
> see it, these are the main ideas of the two viewpoints:
>
> VIEW 1 - MORGOTH CAN BE KILLED
>
> 1. Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth seven times, and then hew his
> foot so that "he walked ever halt of one foot". Thus, he can be
> wounded. (Counterpoint: Morgoth can be wounded, but not killed. This
> doesn't really make sense, though.)
>
> 2. Luthien was able to put him to sleep with magic. It seems that if
> he would succumb to that simple(?) magic, he could be killed.
> (Counterpoint: Either Luthien's magic was not simple, or sleep and
> death are two completely different issues.)
>
> 3. Tolkien himself wrote that "In the end, [Fionwe(>Eonwe)] will slay
> Melko." (LT II) (Counterpoint: This was a very early outline.)
>
> VIEW 2 - MORGOTH CANNOT BE KILLED
>
> 1. Why did the gods not kill Morgoth at the end of the First Age?
> Instead, they stick him outside the doors of the world to come back
> later for a final battle. (Counterpoint: I can't think of one.)
>
> Anyone have things to add?
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
Melkor was still their brother. Also there is a certain plan that all must
follow to fulfill the Music of the Ainur.
Calvin
Lars Christensen
Mr. K (ck...@mail.nitco.com) wrote:
[snip]
: VIEW 2 - MORGOTH CANNOT BE KILLED
: 1. Why did the gods not kill Morgoth at the end of the First Age?
: Instead, they stick him outside the doors of the world to come back
: later for a final battle. (Counterpoint: I can't think of one.)
: Anyone have things to add?
Tolkien wrote an interesting essay called 'Notes on motives in the
Silmarillion. It is given in Morgoth's Ring, and explains a great
deal about the nature of Melkor's fall. The end of the First Age is
explained thus:
"Morgoth was thus actually *made captive in physical form*, and in
that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo
Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually
take out of the Blessed Realm and *executed*: that is *killed*
like one of the Incarnates."
"killed" here refers to the fact that Morgoth's spirit had become
so absorbed in his own body (and in controlling 'matter') that his
spirit was weakened very much when that body was destroyed, and he
was not able to take shape again.
But this wouldn't be Tolkien if it was completely certain. JRRT did
speculate that Morgoth would slowly be able to grow and recover and
eventually return, which is rather interesting since the Second
Prophecy (the one where Morgoth returns) had at this time been
adandoned (if my memory serves me right).
So can Morgoth be killed? I guess it all depends on how you define
things. Certainly for all practical purposes he *was* killed at
the end of the First Age. But even JRRT raises some doubt as to
what it means when Morgoth's spirit was thrust out into the Void,
and suggests that this might simply mean he fled from Arda.
From my point of view, I prefer to think of Morgoth as being dead
until proven alive. It makes me sleep better :)
----
Lars Christensen
fl...@inet.uni-c.dk
Carl F. Hostetter
Apparently, yes. In the 1930s' _Quenta Silmarillion_ (see _The Lost
Road_), Mandos foretells that in the final days Turin Turambar will slay
Morgoth.
--
|======================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter Aelf...@erols.com http://www.erols.com/aelfwine |
| |
| ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
| Ars longa, vita brevis. |
| The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
| "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
| such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
|======================================================================|
Mr. K
mich...@basis.com (Michael Martinez) wrote:
>In article <53bqsk$o...@hyperion.nitco.com>, ck...@mail.nitco.com (Mr. K)
>wrote:
>>This is a question that has been bugging me for quite some time. As I
>>see it, these are the main ideas of the two viewpoints:
>You are confusing two different stories with each other. The earlier story
>dealt with "gods" who could, like the Norse gods, be killed.
>The later story, from which THE SILMARILLION was drawn, dealt with Angelic
>beings sent into the Universe from outside. They could "clothe" themselves
>with physical bodies that could be "killed", but the beings themselves were
>immortal. Some had the strength to reclothe themselves, others did not.
Where does it say that? It says that Melkor left Valinor and went
into the world. At least, in the published Silm. Haven't seen books
V and on of the HoME series.
-Chris
Brett Gearing
Mr. K wrote:
>
>
> VIEW 1 - MORGOTH CAN BE KILLED
>
> 1. Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth seven times, and then hew his
> foot so that "he walked ever halt of one foot". Thus, he can be
> wounded. (Counterpoint: Morgoth can be wounded, but not killed. This
> doesn't really make sense, though.)
According to Greek mythology the gods could be injured, but not killed.
--
_____________________________________________________________
Brett Gearing mgea...@miworld.net
http://www.miworld.net/~mgearing
"I don't agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your
right to say it" -Voltaire
Brett Gearing
Michael Martinez
I'm not sure of what you are asking about. If you're asking about where the
reference is to "physical bodies that can be 'killed'", there are sections in
THE SILMARILLION which deal with this.
From "Ainulindale":
"Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because
they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of
Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner
which they beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in
majest and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their
knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World
itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment,
and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.
Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and
then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though
they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves
the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some
as of female; for that difference of temper they had even
from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the
choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male
and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made
thereby."
As for the Maiar, they too had this ability, since they were originally Ainur,
too. This is indicated in "Valaquenta":
"Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien,
but its ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of
her he learned pity and patience.
"Of Melian much is told in the *Quenta Silmarillion*. But
of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the
Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of
them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions
or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts...."
Of course, we also know from "Akallabeth" that Sauron, a Maia corrupted by
Melkor, lost his physical body in the destruction of Numenor:
"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the
wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea
and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked
for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and
the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in
his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed
when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazon sounding for
battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder
of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his
own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world,
being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the
midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into
the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though
he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought
so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair
to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the
deep and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that
was his home. There he took up again hs great Ring in
Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he
wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and
hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible
few could endure."
And we know that this new body was also destroyed at the end of the Second Age
when Sauron fought with Elendil and Gil-Galad.
If, on the other hand, you're asking where it's stated that the Valar and
Maiar were "Angelic beings", you have to look in HOME for the actual term, but
"Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta" make it clear that the Valar and Maiar were
only Ainur, made by Iluvatar, who entered into the universe (Ea) after
Iluvatar created it. Arda constitutes the Solar System (according to
Christopher Tolkien), and Middle-earth is a continent on the "world", as
Valinor is situated in Aman, another continent on the "world". It wasn't
until late in the Second Age that Aman was taken away from the mortal world
(and, presumably, made into a new, separate world).
Lalaith
He could lose his body but not his mind. This is and remains
consistent throughout all of Tolkien's writings. Bodys can be
eliminated (repeatedly, as Sauron kindly demonstrated to us) but never
has anybody in Middle-earth destroyed anybody else's spirit, for only
Iluvatar can do this.
ck...@mail.nitco.com (Mr. K) wrote:
>This is a question that has been bugging me for quite some time. As I
>see it, these are the main ideas of the two viewpoints:
>VIEW 1 - MORGOTH CAN BE KILLED
>1. Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth seven times, and then hew his
>foot so that "he walked ever halt of one foot". Thus, he can be
>wounded. (Counterpoint: Morgoth can be wounded, but not killed. This
>doesn't really make sense, though.)
>2. Luthien was able to put him to sleep with magic. It seems that if
>he would succumb to that simple(?) magic, he could be killed.
>(Counterpoint: Either Luthien's magic was not simple, or sleep and
>death are two completely different issues.)
>3. Tolkien himself wrote that "In the end, [Fionwe(>Eonwe)] will slay
>Melko." (LT II) (Counterpoint: This was a very early outline.)
>VIEW 2 - MORGOTH CANNOT BE KILLED
>1. Why did the gods not kill Morgoth at the end of the First Age?
>Instead, they stick him outside the doors of the world to come back
>later for a final battle. (Counterpoint: I can't think of one.)
>Anyone have things to add?
>-Chris
Hans M. Asheim
Well, if Melkor could be killed, I´m sure the Vala would destroy him.
Here´s my thoughts on why they couldn´t do that.
1. Melkor was a Vala, just like his captors. Mighty as they are, Melkor
was too powerful for the to kill.
2. Ilúvatarswork might have been irreversible. Once the Vala was
created, nothing could destroy them until the end of time.
3. The Vala wished to punish Melkor/Morgoth. What could be worse for
him han to be cut off from his power and his self-proclaimed kingdom?
H.
Michael Martinez
In article <asheim-1609...@susanti-01.itea.ntnu.no>, ash...@out.of.order (Hans M. Asheim) wrote:
>Well, if Melkor could be killed, I´m sure the Vala would destroy him.
>Here´s my thoughts on why they couldn´t do that.
Apparently they DID kill him. They just could not destroy his spirit.
> 2. Ilúvatarswork might have been irreversible. Once the Vala was
>created, nothing could destroy them until the end of time.
This is more-or-less the case.
James W.Spencer
two more views:
1. Manwe is the kind of guy that doesn't understand the nature of evil. How
could he kill out of hand?
2. To sort of borrow from the Eddings Universe: You cannot unmake a thing;
it's forbidden. The Universe would rebel.
Hans M. Asheim <ash...@out.of.order> wrote in article
<asheim-1609...@susanti-01.itea.ntnu.no>...
> Well, if Melkor could be killed, I´m sure the Vala would destroy him.
> Here´s my thoughts on why they couldn´t do that.
> 1. Melkor was a Vala, just like his captors. Mighty as they are,
Melkor
> was too powerful for the to kill.
> 2. Ilúvatarswork might have been irreversible. Once the Vala was
> created, nothing could destroy them until the end of time.
Alexander Taylor
In article <01bbbca2$b38ff320$d37fbdcc@JSpencer>,
>> Well, if Melkor could be killed, I´m sure the Vala would destroy him.
>> Here´s my thoughts on why they couldn´t do that.
>> 1. Melkor was a Vala, just like his captors. Mighty as they are,
>Melkor
>> was too powerful for the to kill.
>> 2. Ilúvatars work might have been irreversible. Once the Vala was
>> created, nothing could destroy them until the end of time.
>> 3. The Vala wished to punish Melkor/Morgoth. What could be worse for
>> him han to be cut off from his power and his self-proclaimed kingdom?
>>
>two more views:
>1. Manwe is the kind of guy that doesn't understand the nature of evil. How
>could he kill out of hand?
>2. To sort of borrow from the Eddings Universe: You cannot unmake a thing;
>it's forbidden. The Universe would rebel.
Having just stumbled across this thread (the beginning of which is lost), I
hope you'll excuse me for interjecting...
"Executing" Morgoth would simply have temporarily dissipated his powers.
Neither he, nor for that matter Sauron, could be "annihilated", as Tolkien
made it quite clear that spirits could not be destroyed. Unlike Sauron,
however, who was reduced to eternal impotency, Morgoth's spirit was so
immensely potent that, over many millenia, it would have been able to
partially "re-coalesce".
In fact, Tolkien's later writings indicate that this is precisely what the
Valar did. Presumably the Last Battle (Dagor Dagorath) would occur when
Morgoth was, after uncounted ages, finally able to re-form enough to do more
than watch and rage helplessly. This is all discussed in superb (and perhaps
confusing) detail _Morgoth's Ring_, part five, essays VI and VII. For those
who don't have it I'll give a partial quote, although you really have to read
the whole thing to get the complete picture.
"[Morgoth] was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and
_executed_: that is _killed_ like one of the Incarnates. ...though he
had disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive will) far and wide
into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all
that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as
'himself' was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited
his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed
he was weak and utterly 'houseless'..."
Some remarks follow about how Morgoth's being "thrust out" beyond the walls of
Ea could be interpreted - whether Eru actually intervened and banished him to
the Void (that is, outside the physical universe), or whether he was simply
extruded from Arda (the Earth and possibly the surrounding Solar System)
itself. To continue:
"...what was left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe
itself... At least it could not _yet_ reclothe itself... He had
been a being of immense potency and life... The dark spirit of
Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and
after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back
into itself some of its formerly dissipated power."
----------------------------------
Alexander Taylor
University of Guelph
atay...@uoguelph.ca
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~ataylo00
Bounetone Arounerargsy
--
FROM THE DESK OF BOUNE AROUNERARGSY, IBM & MS Certified Consultant
Surfing the World by VOICE with OS/2 Warp 4.0
____________________________________________________________________
Fascinating and very valuable. Could you inform us where we might
find the literature you mention, i.e. MORGOTH's RING, Part 5, essays VI
and VII? Thanks in advance.