Gildor Inglorion
Stephen Geard
The question has arisen as the identity of Gildor Inglorion the elf who
Frodo meets in the Shire early in the LotR.
Gildor calls himself, "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod." He also
says, "We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long departed and we too
are only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea." Clearly
implying that Gildor was one of the Noldor who joined the Exile, and
therefore that he was born in Valinor. I also note that, with regard to
Gildor and his companions, "they bore no lights, yet as they walked a
shimmer, like the light of the moon above the hills before it rises, seemed
to fall about their feet." This also strongly suggests that Gildor was
amongst those who had dwelt in the Blessed Realm.
If we read "House of Finrod" to mean "House of Finarfin," we can place
Gildor amongst those of the Noldor who joined themselves to the host of
Finarfin at the time of the Exile (and continued, under Finrod Felagund, to
Beleriand). Some however have argued that the after-name "Inglorion"
suggests that Gildor was actually a descendant of Finarfin. I do not
believe so, and here is my - complicated - reasoning.
My argument revolves around the heirs of Fingolfin and the High Kingship of
the Noldor. But note firstly, that for the sake of this discussion I shall
make descendants of Finwe as Tolkien left them in his last writings. Thus
Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, the son of Angrod, the son of Finarfin.
(Actually the argument works even if Gil-galad is left as the son of
Fingon, but the line of descent is more complicated).
Fingolfin became the High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth when Maedhros
surrendered the office to him. I shall assume that the surrender was
irrevocable, and the descendants of Feanor could not claim the High
Kingship at any later stage.
With the death of Fingolfin, the High Kingship passed to his eldest son,
Fingon. Fingon died childless, so the office passed to his younger brother
Turgon. Turgon died in the Fall of Gondolin.
Now comes the tricky part: what was the law used among the Eldar with
regard to succession? I think we can reasonably suppose that it was
succession to male heirs, thru a male line. Thus a kingship would pass from
father to son, and if there was no son, it would pass to the closest male
heir, descended through a male line. Thus sons of sisters/daughters were
not heirs.
We know from Unfinshed Tales (p. 208) that this was the law on Numenor
(before they changed it). It also appears to have been the case with the
Dwarves, as Dain Ironfoot was always considered to be Thorin Oakenshield's
heir. There is no suggestion that Fili, the elder of Thorin's sister-sons,
was ever considered to be his heir.
So who became High King upon the death of Turgon? His daughter Idril was
ineligible, as was her son Earendil (for he was not of male descent). There
were no other living descendants of Fingolfin. So the line of succession
must then be traced thru Fingolfin's brother Finarfin. But Finarfin's sons
(Finrod, Angrod, and Aegnor) all predeceased Turgon. Finrod was childless,
so we then move to Angrod's descendants: Orodreth (his son) also
predeceased Turgon, so Gil-galad (son of Orodreth) becomes High King.
What then happened when Gil-galad died? Almost certainly he died without a
rightful male heir - there is no hint anywhere of any heir. Thus we can
conclude, that at the end of the Second Age, there was no living male heir
to Finarfin, by male descent.
So who was Gildor? If he was a descendant of Finarfin, the closest we can
possible make him is a son of a daughter of either Angrod or Aegnor. Any
closer and he would have been Gil-galad's heir.
But Gildor was born in Valinor. We know from HoMe 12: 346 that there were
only two children "in the third generation from Finwe to go with the
exiles." They were Idril and Orodreth, and neither of them were very old -
Tolkien uses the word "child" to describe them.
Additionally we can note: (1) The account of the death of Elenwe (wife of
Turgon) given on pp. 345-346 of HoMe 12 suggests that Elenwe was carrying
Idril at the time she fell (i.e. Idril was only a child); and (2) according
to HoMe 12:350 Orodreth married in Middle-earth, suggesting he was only
young when he arrived.
Is it therefore credible to suggest that Gildor, who must have been (at
least) the fourth generation from Finwe, was born in Valinor and joined the
Exile? Especially as the only two Eldar he could possibly be descended from
were among the younger of Finwe's grandchildren? I think not.
I therefore conclude that Gildor was of the House of Finrod as one of its
servants, not one of its sons. As I suggested previously: perhaps a knight
of Nargothrond.
Stephen Geard
Tasmania
David Salo
In article <01bbdd25$ece241c0$0100007f@default>, "Stephen Geard"
<sge...@msn.com> wrote:
Gildor calls himself, "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod." He also
says, "We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long departed and we too
are only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea." Clearly
implying that Gildor was one of the Noldor who joined the Exile, and
therefore that he was born in Valinor. I also note that, with regard to
Gildor and his companions, "they bore no lights, yet as they walked a
shimmer, like the light of the moon above the hills before it rises, seemed
to fall about their feet." This also strongly suggests that Gildor was
amongst those who had dwelt in the Blessed Realm.
I think that any of the Noldor, born in Valinor or in Middle-earth,
could describe himself or herself as an _Etyangol_ or exiled Noldo,
implying forced separation from Aman and life under the Ban of the Valar,
which applied equally to the descendants of the exiles.
[coherent argument about the inheritance of kingship cut]
> So who was Gildor? If he was a descendant of Finarfin, the closest we can
> possible make him is a son of a daughter of either Angrod or Aegnor. Any
> closer and he would have been Gil-galad's heir.
Not if he were a descendant via a daughter. Couldn't Maeglin be
considered as a member of the "House of Fingolfin" (or of Turgon?)
> But Gildor was born in Valinor.
I would not accept this as given.
> I therefore conclude that Gildor was of the House of Finrod as one of its
> servants, not one of its sons. As I suggested previously: perhaps a knight
> of Nargothrond.
Well, I won't say that that's an impossible interpretation. But it
should be possible to squeeze Inglor and his son Gildor somewhere into the
line of Finarfin's descendants: son of a daughter of Angrod, perhaps. That
would remove Gildor four generations from Finarfin, of course; and it would
contradict the statement in _Peoples_ p. 347 that Gil-galad was "the last
male descendant of Finwe except Elrond the Halfelven" - though that
statement must also exclude Elrond's children, and the human descendants of
Elros - and Maglor, if he still lived.
Finarfin m. Earwen
Finrod: no children
Aegnor: no children
Angrod
Orodreth
Rodnor Gil-galad: no children?
Finduilas: no children
Galadriel m. Celeborn
Celebrian m. Elrond
Elladan
Elrohir
Arwen
David Salo
Walter Minne
Good Day All,
I had been trying to leave out consideration of the HOME on this as it would
confuse the issue too much, but it would appear that there would be no way to
leave it out.
In article <01bbdd25$ece241c0$0100007f@default>, sge...@msn.com says...
>
< much interesting discussion of Noldorin descent snipped >
>So who was Gildor? If he was a descendant of Finarfin, the closest we can
>possible make him is a son of a daughter of either Angrod or Aegnor. Any
>closer and he would have been Gil-galad's heir.
Is the colour of Gildors hair ever given anywhere? I had a quick look in FOR
before I came on line, but I could not find it if it was there.
>
>But Gildor was born in Valinor. We know from HoMe 12: 346 that there were
>only two children "in the third generation from Finwe to go with the
>exiles." They were Idril and Orodreth, and neither of them were very old -
>Tolkien uses the word "child" to describe them.
>
>Additionally we can note: (1) The account of the death of Elenwe (wife of
>Turgon) given on pp. 345-346 of HoMe 12 suggests that Elenwe was carrying
>Idril at the time she fell (i.e. Idril was only a child); and (2) according
>to HoMe 12:350 Orodreth married in Middle-earth, suggesting he was only
>young when he arrived.
If memory serves, Elenwe was of the Vanyar. If so what was Idrils hair color?
If Turgon was dark haired, and Idril was fair haired, then there is Idril
another example of a fair haired Noldor, who is not a descendant of Finarfin.
>
>Is it therefore credible to suggest that Gildor, who must have been (at
>least) the fourth generation from Finwe, was born in Valinor and joined the
>Exile? Especially as the only two Eldar he could possibly be descended from
>were among the younger of Finwe's grandchildren? I think not.
>
>I therefore conclude that Gildor was of the House of Finrod as one of its
>servants, not one of its sons. As I suggested previously: perhaps a knight
>of Nargothrond.
I would suggest that it is also possible for him to have been fair haired,
though not of the bloodline of Finarfin. I propose that the original divisions
of the Elves as a whole and the Noldor as a people, were by individuals
naturally seeking to group with people like them. Finarfin, himself a quote
golden haired boy end quote, would likely draw to him elves who at some level
liked the golden hair ( or the Vanyar ) and would like partners and children
who also had golden hair.
Most likely, any given Noldor with fair hair was likely to be aligned with
Finarfin. Glorfindel is the spectacular exception, being aligned with
Fingolfin ( via Turgon ).
>
>Stephen Geard
>Tasmania
>
>
Comments anyone?
Walter Minne
Michael Martinez
On 11/28/96 6:13PM, in message <57ldcc$q...@curlew.mtx.net.au>, Walter Minne
<ka...@dove.mtx.net.au> wrote:
> Is the colour of Gildors hair ever given anywhere? I had a quick look in FOR
> before I came on line, but I could not find it if it was there.
Gildor's hair color is never stated, so far as I know. But even if it were golden,
that would not be much of an indication of anything.
Besides, the story of who was born in Valinor and who was a descendant of Finwe was
not complete when Tolkien wrote "Three Is Company".
> If memory serves, Elenwe was of the Vanyar. If so what was Idrils hair color?
THE SILMARILLION tells us that Idril's hair was golden like her mother's.
> If Turgon was dark haired, and Idril was fair haired, then there is Idril
> another example of a fair haired Noldor, who is not a descendant of Finarfin.
Yes.
> Comments anyone?
Well, I'm not ready to agree that someone would be said to be "of the House of
Finarfin" simply because he liked Finarfin's hair and was drawn to that house. The
House of Finrod is one of Tolkien's anomalies, I'm afraid.
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Michael Martinez
On 11/28/96 6:18AM, in message <01bbdd25$ece241c0$0100007f@default>, "Stephen
Geard" <sge...@msn.com> wrote:
> The question has arisen as the identity of Gildor Inglorion the elf who
> Frodo meets in the Shire early in the LotR.
>
> Gildor calls himself, "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod." He also
> says, "We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long departed and we too
> are only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea." Clearly
> implying that Gildor was one of the Noldor who joined the Exile, and
> therefore that he was born in Valinor.
If we accept this at face value, then every Noldo born in Middle-earth would NOT be
an exile. Gil-galad was born in Middle-earth during the Wars of Beleriand. Can he
legitimately be considered an Exile? He was certainly called High King Of The
Noldor-in-Exile. But was Gil-galad himself an Exile?
I don't think Tolkien ever really explained the term.
Note to those who watch my fence-jumping: I'm pointing to an ambiguity, not arguing
that we shouldn't accept the term literally.
> I also note that, with regard to Gildor and his companions, "they bore no
> lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above
> the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet." This also
> strongly suggests that Gildor was amongst those who had dwelt in the
> Blessed Realm.
Gildor or at least some of his people. But it could also have been something else,
and not an indication that they had all dwelt in the Blessed Realm.
My inclination is to agree with you on this point, but my inclinations don't make
either of us right. :)
[snip]
> But Gildor was born in Valinor. We know from HoMe 12: 346 that there were
> only two children "in the third generation from Finwe to go with the
> exiles." They were Idril and Orodreth, and neither of them were very old -
> Tolkien uses the word "child" to describe them.
Note for those still working their ways through "The Shibboleth of Feanor":
"Artaher" was an "early" name for Orodreth.
[snip]
> I therefore conclude that Gildor was of the House of Finrod as one of its
> servants, not one of its sons. As I suggested previously: perhaps a knight
> of Nargothrond.
This interpretation is still unsupported by any textual evidence. Guilin and his
sons Gwindor and Gelmir were princes of Nargothrond but are nowhere said to be of
the House of Finarfin or Finrod. The connection between Gildor and Finrod simply
cannot be established, and unless someone can find a precedent showing an Elf not
akin to the house being of the house, this argument is only a theory which has no
hope of advancing beyond that stage.
comi...@aol.com
Not to be a spoil sport on this fascinating discussion, but isn't it
possible that Tolkien wrote "Gildor Inglorion" for the same reason he
wrote about the Stone giants in THE HOBBIT? Namely that at the time he
began LoTR he still had a "glorified fairy tale" feeling about the story.
He threw in this reference to the older legends, but didn't want to let
the horse out of the barn, so to speak.
However, if you must argue inter-textual, as opposed to extra-textual
reasoning, I also go with the idea that "House of Finarfin" refers to on
of the many unnamed Elves who came with the central players, in the host
of Finarfin. (After all, somebody was supposed to have been on those
ships, right?) The precedent for this being the terminology referring to
the Three Houses of the Edain.
-----------------------------------------------------------
ComixAce "Death is the mother
(Heidi M.) of beauty" -- Wallace Stevens
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/comixace
Michael Martinez
On 11/29/96 11:02PM, in message <19961130060...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
comi...@aol.com wrote:
> However, if you must argue inter-textual, as opposed to extra-textual
> reasoning, I also go with the idea that "House of Finarfin" refers to on
> of the many unnamed Elves who came with the central players, in the host
> of Finarfin. (After all, somebody was supposed to have been on those
> ships, right?) The precedent for this being the terminology referring to
> the Three Houses of the Edain.
I reluctantly offer this correction, as it seems I run people off into the hills
with my nit-picking, but Finarfin's people (and children) walked to Middle-earth.
Only the Feanorians and their followers crossed by ship.
And I'll spare you a repeat of my argument concerning the three houses of the
Edain. :)
comi...@aol.com
MichealM wrote:
>>>I reluctantly offer this correction, as it seems I run people off into
the hills
with my nit-picking, but Finarfin's people (and children) walked to
Middle-earth.
Only the Feanorians and their followers crossed by ship.
Right...I was being rhetorical. And I have seen your interesting arguments
regarding this in other threads. I do think that arguing over Gildor (fun
as it may be) is a waste of time, since this is clearly a case where
Tolkien goofed, plain and simple.
I'd be more interested in speculating on whether or why JRRT decided to
abandon the 2nd Prophecy of Mandos and other such subjects where te
evidence is pelntiful and contraditory.
Heidi
(Prefer speculation to argument, I guess!)
-----------------------------------------------------------
ComixAce "Death is the mother
(Heidi M.) of beauty" -- Wallace Stevens
"Hopes fail, an end comes. We have only a little while to wait now." -- "The Return of the King"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/comixace
David Salo
In article <19961130060...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
comi...@aol.com wrote:
> Not to be a spoil sport on this fascinating discussion, but isn't it
> possible that Tolkien wrote "Gildor Inglorion" for the same reason he
> wrote about the Stone giants in THE HOBBIT? Namely that at the time he
> began LoTR he still had a "glorified fairy tale" feeling about the story.
> He threw in this reference to the older legends, but didn't want to let
> the horse out of the barn, so to speak.
This is probably correct. In a late essay on Glorfindel, Tolkien wrote
"Its use [i.e, the use of the name Glorfindel] in _The Lord of the Rings_
is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in older
legends, now referred to as _The Silmarillion_, which escaped
reconsideration in the final published form of _The Lord of the Rings_."
_Gildor Inglorion_ is probably another such name. However, if Tolkien had
thought that the name was much of a problem, he probably would have devoted
some thought to it; there is no evidence that he did so (the last mention
of Gildor I know of is a note in _The Road Goes Ever On_ in which Tolkien
says that Gildor and his people were elves living in or near Rivendell,
going east to look in the Palantir of Elostirion).
This haphazard use of "Inglor" may however be one source of Tolkien's
decision to change the name of the King of Nargothrond from Inglor to
Finrod.
I do not, incidentally, see any reason to throw out the Stone-giants of
_The Hobbit_. They are hardly less probable than Trolls, Ents, or Giant
Eagles! A passing mention of Hobbit-legends "about giants" appears on pp.
46 and 58 of _The Peoples of Middle-earth_.
David Salo
Chris Kevlahan
Stephen Geard (sge...@msn.com) wrote:
: The question has arisen as the identity of Gildor Inglorion the elf who
: Frodo meets in the Shire early in the LotR.
: Gildor calls himself, "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod." He also
: says, "We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long departed and we too
[deletia.....]
Wasn't there a Gildor Inglorion who either followed Beren or Turin? Turin,
I'm sure it was Turin. But that Gildor was portrayed as a Human....or
was he?
Chris K.