Bakshi LotR Movie Stinks
Christopher M Cevasco
the Ralph Bakshi animated production of The Lord of the Rings. I am
merely interested in finding out if it is just me, or if everyone else
out there who has seen this film found it to be THE worst attempt at a
movie ever made by any director in any genre, animated or otherwise. I
have been an avid Tolkien fan for many years now, and I have read LotR
about five times, enjoying it more and more every time I read it. But,
while I know the plot basically inside-out, I found it almost impossible
to follow what the heck was supposed to be going on in that Bakshi
disaster. Did they even use LotR as a basis for this movie, or did they
just come up with some bizarre plot of their own? It is completely
disjointed, and for someone who has never read Tolkien, I would imagine
the film would be totally incomprehensible. I'm always embarrased when I
encounter someone who has only experienced Tolkien through this film -
embarrased to admit that I actually am a fan of the books upon which the
film was supposedly based. And with regard to Bakshi's so-called
cutting-edge animation, I found it to be innefective, inadequate, and
generally annoying as hell. Most of the film looked more like a
colorized live-action black and white film with poor to non-existant
lighting. And what on earth were the animators thinking when they drew
their interpretation of Fangorn? He looked more like something from the
Wizard of Oz than the Ent he was supposed to be. Anyhow, I could go
on and on forever about the wretched qualities of this nightmare of a
movie, but I suppose I will cut things off here. I would be interested,
however, to find out if others agree with my assesment.
Bruce McMenomy
Cevasco <cce...@emory.edu> wrote:
> ...I am
> merely interested in finding out if it is just me, or if everyone else
> out there who has seen this film found it to be THE worst attempt at a
> movie ever made by any director in any genre, animated or otherwise.
I agree that the Bakshi LotR is a pretty poor movie, but _the_ worst
attempt to make a film of a book? I think I could name a worse example
without leaving the local field: sc., the Rankin/Bass _The Return of the
King_, which was a nearly comedic rendition of the thing, and, though
better in animation technique (I agree that the Bakshi LotR looked
colorized: that was the highly-touted rotoscoping...yecch.) it lacked any
serioiusness whatever. "Where there's a whip, there's a way"? And other
execrable movies abound, disfiguring the literary landscape from one end
of Hollywood to the other. Is your passionate dislike of this one movie
rooted primarily in the magnitude of its faults, or in the greatness of
your attachment to the material it (very handily) betrayed?
David Librik
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.950224123721.13912A-100000@curly>, Christopher M
>Cevasco <cce...@emory.edu> wrote:
>> ...I am
>> merely interested in finding out if it is just me, or if everyone else
>> out there who has seen this film found it to be THE worst attempt at a
>> movie ever made by any director in any genre, animated or otherwise.
> I agree that the Bakshi LotR is a pretty poor movie, but _the_ worst
>attempt to make a film of a book? I think I could name a worse example
>without leaving the local field: sc., the Rankin/Bass _The Return of the
>King_, which was a nearly comedic rendition of the thing, and, though
>better in animation technique (I agree that the Bakshi LotR looked
>colorized: that was the highly-touted rotoscoping...yecch.) it lacked any
>serioiusness whatever. "Where there's a whip, there's a way"?
Here's a data point for ya: I saw the Bakshi _Lord Of The Rings_ as a
kid. It made absolutely no sense. I remember a lot of scenes of people
setting out for huge battles in the second half of the movie, but even
today I couldn't tell you what that was all about.
That movie put me off reading Tolkien for years. When I finally picked
up the L.R. at age 17, it hit me like a brick thrown from out of nowhere:
I devoured everything I could find of his. I memorized Jim Allan's
_Introduction to Elvish_. This is the same effect other people have
mentioned (including Ursula LeGuin) -- Middle Earth becomes the most
real place you know of, and you refuse to leave.
And I would have discovered it much earlier, when my mom started to
read us _The Lord Of The Rings_ (we got her to skip _The Hobbit_ because
"we've already seen the movie!"). But we bogged down quickly in the
Prologue Concerning Hobbits and I think my brother and I both felt that
the book couldn't be that good, because the movie was so uninteresting.
The Rankin & Bass _Return Of The King_ succeeds in telling its story
quite well, although it misses a lot of the 'high seriousness' that's
appropriate for the final book of the trilogy. What else could they do?
It was a silly story, a bit like what you'd expect Hobbits to tell each
other about Frodo and Sam and their journey across Mordor. And it was
on TV one night, and I watched it, and I said "Why don't I go check out
the Lord Of The Rings?" (I was on a kick of reading "great literature"
at the time anyway ... little did I know what I was in for.) So I would
have to agree that the Bakshi L.R. is far worse than the Rankin & Bass.
- David Librik
lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu
Louis Epstein
: In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.950224123721.13912A-100000@curly> Christopher M Cevasco <cce...@emory.edu> writes:
: >From: Christopher M Cevasco <cce...@emory.edu>
: >Subject: Bakshi LotR Movie Stinks
: >Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:49:33 -0500
: [ ... lotso stuff deleted ... ]
: > I would be interested,
: >however, to find out if others agree with my assesment.
: In general, I agree. I can't give a more detailed description of my dislike of
: this particular movie, due to the simple fact that I could not sit thru more
: than the first 15 minutes of it! I found the rotoscoping, or whatever its
: called, took my attention away from the story and focused it upon the
: picture; rather distracting - so much so that I turned off the VCR and
: returned the movie... I would rather full-fledged animation
: (which is one reason why I like the R&B versions), or live actors...
I went to a sneak preview and sat through the whole thing to get my
review into FroFor(as ARDALINDE then was) as soon as I could...barely
mailed any before the premiere,though.I wrote six pages.I knew in advance
that it would be utterly wretched,but the agony could not be merely
anticipated.
Sumner G. Hunnewell
Is this *the* Bruce McMenomy from Gwyntystorm fame...the full frontal
nude Gimli centerfold fame...sir, my hat is off to you.
Hildifons Took
P.S. The numbering on Gwyntystorm was a really nasty trick for a bibliographer
like myself.
Peter Gutmann
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.950224123721.13912A-100000@curly> Christopher M Cevasco <cce...@emory.edu> writes:
>[ ... lotso stuff deleted ... ]
>> I would be interested,
>>however, to find out if others agree with my assesment.
>In general, I agree. I can't give a more detailed description of my dislike of
>this particular movie, due to the simple fact that I could not sit thru more
>than the first 15 minutes of it! I found the rotoscoping, or whatever its
>called, took my attention away from the story and focused it upon the
>picture; rather distracting - so much so that I turned off the VCR and
>returned the movie... I would rather full-fledged animation
>(which is one reason why I like the R&B versions), or live actors...
If you want to see a similarly-done film which *is* worth watching, check
out "The Wizards" - not much to do with Tolkien ("This day has been one bad
trip" - the good wizards summary of one of the early days in the film) but it
shows what you can do with that kind of film (YMMV - it's been a long time
since I saw either of them).
Peter.
Bruce McMenomy
That was all Bonnie GoodKnight's doing, and I didn't really have
anything to do with putting that issue together.
But I have to confess to being the same as got Gwyntystorm started.
Indeed, it would be kind of hard (try as I might) to pretend that
the world was full of Bruces McMenomy in Tolkien fandom, wouldn't it?
But about the numbering -- you mean you don't have a complete issue of
Gwynty?
My gosh, how your former misdeeds can rise up and bite you when you
least expect it. The Shadow of the Past...it's for real.
BTW, how did *you* get hold of Gwyntystorm?
Peter Payne
> I am
> merely interested in finding out if it is just me, or if everyone else
> out there who has seen this film found it to be THE worst attempt at a
> movie ever made by any director in any genre, animated or otherwise.
You are such a perfect example of the kind of berserk afficianado whose
opinions get ignored by people like filmmakers and other people who have
to adapt what "can" be done to what "should" be done in something like
Lord of the Rings. You will never be satisfied with anything, not if
Spielberg himself spent $1 billion to make it into a 30-hour
mini-series. So my advice is, give up your dreams of seeing your passion
adapted to any kind of form other than the novels that exist now.
I, for one, loved the movie, and think it represents a good, solid
attempt at keeping the story relatively whole, while maintaining some
sense of drama. I also particilarly liked the designs of the characters
and races. I didn't like the fact that the movie just ends, or rather,
that there is no sequel of equal quality. I mean, look at The Hobbit and
Return of the King! You've got Mr. Ranger as Angmar the Witch-King and
Shaggy as Merry!
You gotta compromise somewhere. I think Bakshi deserves congratulations.
--
Peter Payne
Chris Stevens
Organization: IQuest Network Services
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.91.6
In article <3j9v91$r...@gol1.gol.com>, le...@gol1.gol.com (Peter Payne)
says:
>
>Christopher M Cevasco <cce...@emory.edu> wrote:
>
>> I am
>> merely interested in finding out if it is just me, or if everyone else
>> out there who has seen this film found it to be THE worst attempt at a
>> movie ever made by any director in any genre, animated or otherwise.
>
>You are such a perfect example of the kind of berserk afficianado
whose
>opinions get ignored by people like filmmakers and other people who
have
>to adapt what "can" be done to what "should" be done in something like
>Lord of the Rings. You will never be satisfied with anything, not if
>Spielberg himself spent $1 billion to make it into a 30-hour
>mini-series. So my advice is, give up your dreams of seeing your passion
>adapted to any kind of form other than the novels that exist now.
>
>I, for one, loved the movie, and think it represents a good, solid
>attempt at keeping the story relatively whole, while maintaining some
>sense of drama. I also particilarly liked the designs of the characters
>and races. I didn't like the fact that the movie just ends, or rather,
>that there is no sequel of equal quality. I mean, look at The Hobbit and
>Return of the King! You've got Mr. Ranger as Angmar the Witch-King
and
>Shaggy as Merry!
>
>You gotta compromise somewhere. I think Bakshi deserves
congratulations.
>
>
> Peter Payne
>
I've been reading the newsgroup for a couple of weeks now and have
been watching people slam the Bakshi movie. Peter, you are the first
person I have agreed with on the subject. I don't think we will ever see a
movie that will do true justice to the books. However, I thought the movie
captured the core story pretty well as well as the tone. Not perfect by a
long shot, but not bad.
Actually, I don't think there would be enough investors who would be
convinced to spend the money to actually do a movie right. And I
question whether there are enough true Tolkien fans (like all of us) to
make the movie marketable. (I cringe at using the word "marketable" and
Tolkien in the same sentence). Maybe the image of Middle Earth belongs
in our heads instead of on a screen anyway.
Just a thought.
Chris Stevens
Robert M. Matthews
: I, for one, loved the movie, and think it represents a good, solid
: attempt at keeping the story relatively whole, while maintaining some
: sense of drama. I also particilarly liked the designs of the characters
I read Lord of the Rings as a child about 30 years ago (totally unaware
that it was supposed to be a "good book". I was somewhat allergic to such
recommendations. I thoroughly enjoyed it and never got to read the Hobbit
until a few days ago. It also brought me a lot of pleasure. I have a
videotape of the movie LOTR which is thoroughly enjoyable. Of course it's
a different medium, so you have to make some compromises and
modifications.
: You gotta compromise somewhere. I think Bakshi deserves congratulations.
I completely agree!
Cheers!
Robert MATTHEWS matt...@transend.com.tw
"There are three types of people in the world; those that are good at
math and those that are not." Unknown Wit
--
Cheers!
Robert MATTHEWS matt...@transend.com.tw
"There are three types of people in the world; those that are good at
math and those that are not." Unknown Wit
Melchar
> : attempt at keeping the story relatively whole, while maintaining some
> : sense of drama. I also particilarly liked the designs of the characters
>
> I read Lord of the Rings as a child about 30 years ago (totally unaware
> that it was supposed to be a "good book". I was somewhat allergic to such
> recommendations. I thoroughly enjoyed it and never got to read the Hobbit
> until a few days ago. It also brought me a lot of pleasure. I have a
> videotape of the movie LOTR which is thoroughly enjoyable. Of course it's
> a different medium, so you have to make some compromises and
> modifications.
>
> : You gotta compromise somewhere. I think Bakshi deserves congratulations.
However, he is to be condemned for not obtaining _permission_ from
anyone before/during/after he made the animated film -- which is why he
was taken to court & prevented from making part 2.
While I enjoy the treatment, I am appalled at his theft of JRRT's
work
Louis Epstein
: You are such a perfect example of the kind of berserk afficianado whose
: opinions get ignored by people like filmmakers and other people who have
: to
Correction...WANT to,and get PAID to
: adapt what "can" be done to what "should" be done in something like
: Lord of the Rings.
: You gotta compromise somewhere.
No,you gotta know when to leave well enough alone.
I think Bakshi deserves congratulations.
I think he deserves infamy.
Bruce McMenomy
> However, he is to be condemned for not obtaining _permission_ from
> anyone before/during/after he made the animated film -- which is why he
> was taken to court & prevented from making part 2.
> While I enjoy the treatment, I am appalled at his theft of JRRT's
> work
This is news to me. As far as I know, he did buy the film rights to
do LotR. At least that is what we heard in the months/years before
the thing actually hit the screen. What is your source for this?
I speak as one who really disliked the movie, but the non-appearance
of the second half (from my point of view) can be fully accounted for
by market realities (few people thought the first one worth seeing)
rather than legal stuff.
az...@gti.gti.net
>Subject: Bakshi LotR Movie Stinks
>Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:49:33 -0500
[ ... lotso stuff deleted ... ]
> I would be interested,
>however, to find out if others agree with my assesment.
In general, I agree. I can't give a more detailed description of my dislike of
Michael P Urban
Melchar <mel...@west.darkside.com> wrote:
> However, he is to be condemned for not obtaining _permission_ from
>anyone before/during/after he made the animated film -- which is why he
>was taken to court & prevented from making part 2.
> While I enjoy the treatment, I am appalled at his theft of JRRT's
>work
The Bakshi film was thoroughly legal with respect to trademarks
and copyrights. You may have it confused with his previous fantasy
film, `Wizards', which used characters that bore too-close resemblences
to the Vaughn Bode' comic characters Cheech Wizard and Cobalt 60.
I believe that Bode's family did engage in some litigation, but I do
not know what the final outcome was. When `Wizards' originally played
in Los Angeles, someone `decorated' the theatre marquee by draping
Vaughn Bode's name over Ralph Bakshi's name; the resemblence was
pretty blatant.
Melchar
The outcome of the Bode' case was that Bakshi lost & had a hefty
fine which led to his releasing the LotR film early -- without getting
the Tolkein estates permission to use the material -- for which he got
sued and lost in court. <shrug> I was very interested in this in high
school & did a report on this in my civics class [which is no doubt why
it has stayed in my memory since].
Louis Epstein
: mel...@west.darkside.com (Melchar) wrote:
: > However, he is to be condemned for not obtaining _permission_ from
: > anyone before/during/after he made the animated film -- which is why he
: > was taken to court & prevented from making part 2.
: > While I enjoy the treatment, I am appalled at his theft of JRRT's
: > work
: This is news to me. As far as I know, he did buy the film rights to
: do LotR. At least that is what we heard in the months/years before
: the thing actually hit the screen. What is your source for this?
HE did not BUY the rights.The studio,United Artists(now part of MGM and
thus of Credit Lyonnais and thus of the French government--Tolkien would
not be amused!),had bought the rights long before.It had thought of
various approaches to exercising the rights and settled on hiring
Zaentz & Bakshi.
: I speak as one who really disliked the movie, but the non-appearance
kh...@cerfnet.com
> However, he is to be condemned for not obtaining _permission_ from
> anyone before/during/after he made the animated film -- which is why he
> was taken to court & prevented from making part 2.
> While I enjoy the treatment, I am appalled at his theft of JRRT's
> work
I have made this comment before, but I think it bears repeating. Ralph
Baskshi has a long history of stealing others material, not just JRRT. For that
reason his work should be shuned, or al least viewed in a way that does not
bring him any money. He stole from R. Crumb to make "Fritz the Cat", he
stole from Vaughn Bode to make "Wizards" and he stole from JRRT to make
that movie.
Another Bakshi problem. He went around taking credit for the "animation"
work on his LotR. He claimed he "invented" a method to turn live action into
animation. Actually the technique, called rotoscoping, was invented by a
Fleisher brother (I think Joe).
R F Minchin
: Actually, I don't think there would be enough investors who would be
: question whether there are enough true Tolkien fans (like all of us) to
: make the movie marketable. (I cringe at using the word "marketable" and
: Tolkien in the same sentence). Maybe the image of Middle Earth belongs
: in our heads instead of on a screen anyway.
Possibly Channel 4 could do it, they have got a recent history of making
great films on relatively small budgets and for introducing new actors
into starring roles. Special effects would be a problem, Hobbits should
be playable with well made-up child actors though and the Balrog and
other such creatures through puppetry (compare Babylon 5 to Red Dwarf to
see computer generated vs puppetry effects, the puppetry wins and is
much, much cheaper). Also Channel 4 are fairly likely to stick with the
spirit of the book as they generally make 'art' films rather than
'audience' films, although 4 Weddings and Crying Game did do fairly well
on the audience stakes as well.
Rob
StanleYTMB
a crime for which I've yet to forgive a good number of better people.
Peace be . . .
Keep Smiling.
It makes 'em
regardZ, wonder what
you're up to!
stanleY!
Remember: Murphy was an Optimist.
[ThE mAd MiNiAtUrE mOdElLeR! 1995]
Glenn Saunders
Bakshi's problem with what WAS up on screen was that it was far too
dark. Even in the opening scenes where it is supposed to be joyous in
the Shire, the artwork is all too dark and gloomy.
This must relate to Bakshi's own twisted sense of the world as being a
hellhole (just watch any of his other anti-everything films).
So whereas Rankin Bass was too light (speaking mostly of Return of the
King here), Bakshi was too far in the other direction.
Sure, Bakshi paced it a lot better and was more faithful in terms of not
compressing the work that much (up until the abrupt cut) but that doesn't
do much good when you blow the atmosphere. Another problem was
Lothlorien. It was way too gloomy as well. I didn't get any sense of
elvish wonder from the backgrounds in that scene.
Yet another problem was the Dunesque method of having a didictic opening
narration. Filmmakers have to learn to SHOW don't TELL!!! And I don't
mean sillouettes...
The one good thing Bakshi ever did was the Mighty Mouse show.