Bombadil older than Treebeard?
Michael Gold
Middle Earth is Treebeard, and others which indicate that this distinction
belongs to Bombadil.
Is there a resolution to this mystery?
Experts only need reply.
-MG
mna...@snoopy.claremont.edu
> I can identify references which indicate that the oldest living being in
> Middle Earth is Treebeard, and others which indicate that this distinction
> belongs to Bombadil.
>
> Is there a resolution to this mystery?
I think the two most obviously contradicting statements in TLOTR are
Glorfindel's and Gandalf's:
At the council of Elrond's, Glorfindel explains that if Sauron won the
War of the Ring, and if all else was conquered, then "Bombadil will fall, Last
as he was First, and then Night will come."
When Gandalf was explaining to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas what was up
with Merry and Pippin, he explained that they were Treebeard, "...the oldest of
the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
Middle-earth."
Three conclusions:
1) Gandalf did not really consider TB a "living" creature in the same
way that we think of most of the free peoples and dumb animals
as living. (IMHO, this is the most likely. Remember also that it
was supposed to be the Elves who were awakened first, so I suppose
that the Treebeard came around after them.)
2) Gandalf knew something about TB (namely, when he came to be on
ME) that Glorfinel and the others did not.
3) Gandalf (momentarily) forgot about TB when making his statement.
(Albeit, this does seem a bit far fetched, but then again, it does
seem that people had an easy time not remembering about him.)
Note that there is no real resolution to your question (that I can see),
since (as you can see by the (3) things above), we don't know what was going
on in Gandalf's huge chunk of grey matter at the time.
--Mark
(Yes, my ancestors were the predecessors of the Laiquendi!!)
Tim Thompson
>
> I think the two most obviously contradicting statements in TLOTR are
> Glorfindel's and Gandalf's:
> At the council of Elrond's, Glorfindel explains that if Sauron won the
> War of the Ring, and if all else was conquered, then "Bombadil will fall, Last
> as he was First, and then Night will come."
> When Gandalf was explaining to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas what was up
> with Merry and Pippin, he explained that they were Treebeard, "...the oldest of
> the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
> Middle-earth."
>
what? Gandalf clearly says that Treebeard is the oldest living thing, but it
is not at al clear what "first" means with respect to Bombadil. It is easy to
make the interpretation that Bombadil was the first "person", or the first of
the elder "human" races. Eldest, in a sense, but not Eldest of all living things.
---
------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Thompson, Earth and Space Sciences Division, JPL.
Assistant Administrator, Division Science Computing Network.
Secretary, Los Angeles Astronomical Society.
Member, BOD, Mount Wilson Observatory Association.
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Dane Johnson
>
>I think the two most obviously contradicting statements in TLOTR are
>Glorfindel's and Gandalf's:
> At the council of Elrond's, Glorfindel explains that if Sauron won the
>War of the Ring, and if all else was conquered, then "Bombadil will fall, Last
>as he was First, and then Night will come."
> When Gandalf was explaining to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas what was up
>with Merry and Pippin, he explained that they were Treebeard, "...the oldest of
>the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
>Middle-earth."
This is, of course, the crux of the problem :)
>
> Three conclusions:
>
> 1) Gandalf did not really consider TB a "living" creature in the same
> way that we think of most of the free peoples and dumb animals
> as living. (IMHO, this is the most likely. Remember also that it
> was supposed to be the Elves who were awakened first, so I suppose
> that the Treebeard came around after them.)
TB = Tom Bombadil and not _T_ree_b_eard, eh? This seems the most
likely. Tom can be considered, perhaps, to not exactly be a creature of
Middle-earth. Perhaps, too, Gandalf's statement "...still walks beneath
the Sun..." puts a time on the whole thing...Bombadil has been "dated"
as earlier than the Sun, hasn't he? <Or am I remembering wrong?> That
is, perhaps Treebeard is the oldest Living Thing born <if Ents can be said
to be born> after the creation of the Sun...
>
>Note that there is no real resolution to your question (that I can see),
>since (as you can see by the (3) things above), we don't know what was going
>on in Gandalf's huge chunk of grey matter at the time.
>
Agreed...although I think there's a little more room for speculation
here than there was/is in the Tom=?Maia thread :)
Dane
"It is with our judgements as our watches, none go alike, yet each
believes his own" -- Alexander Pope
mna...@snoopy.claremont.edu
>> At the council of Elrond's, Glorfindel explains that if Sauron won the
>> War of the Ring, and if all else was conquered, then "Bombadil will fall,
>> Last as he was First, and then Night will come."
>> When Gandalf was explaining to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas what was up
>> with Merry and Pippin, he explained that they were Treebeard, "...the
>> oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the
>> Sun upon this Middle-earth."
Tim writes:
> No problem. In Glorfindel's statement, Bombadil was the "First", but first
> what? Gandalf clearly says that Treebeard is the oldest living thing, but it
> is not at al clear what "first" means with respect to Bombadil. It is easy to
> make the interpretation that Bombadil was the first "person", or the first of
> the elder "human" races. Eldest, in a sense, but not Eldest of all living
> things.
Ok, normally I do not respond to such tripe, but I feel that this needs a
definite clearing-up. When Glorfindel was talking, he was saying that Bombadil
would be the last to fall to Sauron. Now the question is, "the last what?"
But, would Glorfindel only include "human" races as beings pitted against
Sauron??? Tim, you say that the interpretation is easily made, but in the
words of Homey the Clown, "I don' think so."
Frank Crary
>Glorfindel's and Gandalf's:
> At the council of Elrond's, Glorfindel explains that if Sauron won the
>War of the Ring, and if all else was conquered, then "Bombadil will fall, Last
>as he was First, and then Night will come."
> When Gandalf was explaining to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas what was up
>with Merry and Pippin, he explained that they were Treebeard, "...the oldest of
>the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
>Middle-earth."
> Three conclusions:
> 1) Gandalf did not really consider TB a "living" creature in the same
> way that we think of most of the free peoples and dumb animals
> as living. (IMHO, this is the most likely. Remember also that it
> was supposed to be the Elves who were awakened first, so I suppose
> that the Treebeard came around after them.)
> 2) Gandalf knew something about TB (namely, when he came to be on
> ME) that Glorfinel and the others did not.
> 3) Gandalf (momentarily) forgot about TB when making his statement.
> (Albeit, this does seem a bit far fetched, but then again, it does
> seem that people had an easy time not remembering about him.)
It is quite clear from the discussion during the Council of Elrond,
the even the great lore masters weren't sure where Bombadil came
from, nor how he fit with the rest of creation. I think the
most reasonable conclusion was that Gandalf and Glorfindel simple
held different oppinions on the subject.
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
Flynn Matthew H
Tom Bombadil >IS< Treebeard!
--
Matthew H. Flynn o o
Department of English ^
University of Southwestern Louisiana \___/
Dane Johnson
>Come on, people. Deep down you know what the answer is:
>
> Tom Bombadil >IS< Treebeard!
Hate to disagree with you, but according to the Appendix, the Ents were
bred in mockery of Tom Bombadil during the First Age, so Treebeard would
actually be a sort of Anti Bombadil.
Dane
:)
Ron Asbestos Dippold
> Tom Bombadil >IS< Treebeard!
I certainly never saw them together... have you? Case closed.
--
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
Andy Carol
>
> Three conclusions: < dropped >
>
>Note that there is no real resolution to your question (that I can see),
>since (as you can see by the (3) things above), we don't know what was going
>on in Gandalf's huge chunk of grey matter at the time.
I think this potential contridiction adds to the flavor of LoTR. History is
what we _think_ we know, not what actually happened. If all characters knew
all there was to know, it would quickly become a boring world.
--- Andrew ca...@edfua0.ctis.af.mil
Bill Seurer
or
4) Tolkien forgot about it or just never got around to fixing it.
Give the poor guy a break. He made a lot of mistakes by his own reckoning
in LotR let alone what several million readers will notice after dissecting
his work.
--
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Internet: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com America On-Line: BillS...@aol.com
Szymon Sokol
: Three conclusions:
: 1) Gandalf did not really consider TB a "living" creature in the same
: way that we think of most of the free peoples and dumb animals
: as living. (IMHO, this is the most likely. Remember also that it
: was supposed to be the Elves who were awakened first, so I suppose
: that the Treebeard came around after them.)
Treebeard may well be older than any of *living* elves (i.e., of those who
are in ME in the end of Third Age).
On the other hand, even is he is one of the "original" ents (those, who were
not born in ME, but came to it from outside), he should not be older than
the "original" elves - see the discussion between Yavanna and Manwe in
"Aule and Yavanna" ("Quenta Silmarillion" chapter 2).
: 2) Gandalf knew something about TB (namely, when he came to be on
: ME) that Glorfinel and the others did not.
: 3) Gandalf (momentarily) forgot about TB when making his statement.
: (Albeit, this does seem a bit far fetched, but then again, it does
: seem that people had an easy time not remembering about him.)
I am almost sure (though I have no proof) that Bombadil was created together
with Arda itself, and therefore he is older than Elves, Treebeard or anybody
else. Thus the conclusions 1) and 3) seem the most reasonable.
--
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Graeme Gill
> I am almost sure (though I have no proof) that Bombadil was created together
> with Arda itself, and therefore he is older than Elves, Treebeard or anybody
> else. Thus the conclusions 1) and 3) seem the most reasonable.
The alternative is that he entered Arda from the "outside", soon
after its creation.
Graeme Gill.
Ogawa / Taro Stephen (ISE)
5) When Gandalf says that the ents are the oldest, he means the oldest
RACE of living beings. Bombadil is unique - he doesn't belong to any
race.
..... Just a thought.
BTW: re: books worthy to approach Tolkien:
The Neverending Story (Michael Ende) [great book, lousy film]
The Phantom Tollbooth (Norton Juster) [along with *The Hobbit*
started me on Fantasy
books]
Taro
Elie Rosenfeld
himself said, "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn". Since
Ents were created to be shepards of the trees, one must assume that the trees
existed before the Ents did. So since Bombadil entered the world before the
first tree existed, he is older than any Ent.
--
Elie Rosenfeld | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore | purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J. | Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800 | - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
Tim Stilwell
>It is clear that Bombadil has been in the world longer than Treebeard. As he
>himself said, "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn". Since
>Ents were created to be shepards of the trees, one must assume that the trees
>existed before the Ents did. So since Bombadil entered the world before the
>first tree existed, he is older than any Ent.
>--
Good point. I remember reading about Aule creating the first dwarves and
Yavanna having a cow about it all since she thought the dwarves would chop
down her trees so she created the Ents to care for the trees. Silm p45?
tim