The ring of Barahir.....

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Stuart Chapman

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Jan 2, 2004, 9:20:54 PM1/2/04
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Hi all....

I have just reread the chapter "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in UT. I
started wondering how the Ring of Barahir would have survived this event.

Presumably Isildur would have received the ring after Elendil's death at the
battle of the Last Alliance. How could the ring have been passed on after
Isildur's death at the Gladden Fields?

UT states that only the remains of Narsil were given to Ohtar to take away,
and that no trace of Isuldur was found after his death. Apparently in the
cleanup of Isengard after the WoTR, the Elendilmir (crown of Arnor) was
recovered.

How could Aragorn have ended up with the Ring of Barahir? Could it have been
left behind at Minas Anor before Isildur travelled north? This seems
unlikely, as Isildur would be the recognised heir of Elendil, and there
would be no reason for Anarion's son (Meneldil, I think) to claim it.

Now why typing this post, I've come to wonder why even Elendil would have
had the ring. Surely it would have been lost in the downfall of Numenor
with Ar-Pharazon. As I understand it, Elendil was merely a 'kinsman' of
Ar-Pharazon (I could check the "Line of Elros" to find out his exact
relationship, 2nd or 3rd cousin I would suppose).


Thoughts??

Regards, Stupot


Stuart Chapman

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Jan 2, 2004, 9:23:41 PM1/2/04
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"Stuart Chapman" <stuart....@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aGpJb.75198$aT.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> Now why typing this post, I've come to wonder why even Elendil would have
> had the ring. Surely it would have been lost in the downfall of Numenor
> with Ar-Pharazon. As I understand it, Elendil was merely a 'kinsman' of
> Ar-Pharazon (I could check the "Line of Elros" to find out his exact
> relationship, 2nd or 3rd cousin I would suppose).
>


Just checked, Elendil was a far more distant relation than this. He was a
descendant of Tar-Elendil, 4th King of Numenor.


Stupot


Stuart Chapman

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Jan 2, 2004, 9:26:59 PM1/2/04
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"Stuart Chapman" <stuart....@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aGpJb.75198$aT.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

I've had a look at The Encyclopedia of Arda.

The only plausible explanation that I can think of is that Elendil left the
ring bbehind in Arnor before the battle, and it was eventually given to
Elrond for safekeeping.

Stupot


Stan Brown

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Jan 2, 2004, 10:12:38 PM1/2/04
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In article <NIpJb.75222$aT.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Stuart Chapman wrote:
>
>"Stuart Chapman" <stuart....@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:aGpJb.75198$aT.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>> Now why typing this post, I've come to wonder why even Elendil would have
>> had the ring.
>
>Just checked, Elendil was a far more distant relation than this. He was a
>descendant of Tar-Elendil, 4th King of Numenor.

... which makes them 19th or 20th cousins. However, it seems likely
that the senior and junior branches of the family would have
intermarried over the generations, so probably they're closer than
that.

Still, I always wondered about the Ring of Barahir. It doesn't seem
reasonable to me that an heirloom like this would _not_ have gone
with the royal line of the family.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
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Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm

Neil Anderson

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Jan 3, 2004, 7:54:50 AM1/3/04
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"Stuart Chapman" <stuart....@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aGpJb.75198$aT.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Hi all....
>
> I have just reread the chapter "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in UT.
I
> started wondering how the Ring of Barahir would have survived this event.
>
> Presumably Isildur would have received the ring after Elendil's death at
the
> battle of the Last Alliance. How could the ring have been passed on after
> Isildur's death at the Gladden Fields?
>
> UT states that only the remains of Narsil were given to Ohtar to take
away,
> and that no trace of Isuldur was found after his death. Apparently in the
> cleanup of Isengard after the WoTR, the Elendilmir (crown of Arnor) was
> recovered.
>
> How could Aragorn have ended up with the Ring of Barahir? Could it have
been
> left behind at Minas Anor before Isildur travelled north? This seems
> unlikely, as Isildur would be the recognised heir of Elendil, and there
> would be no reason for Anarion's son (Meneldil, I think) to claim it.
>
It obviously had to have been either left in Arnor when he went to war, or
else was given to Ohtar before he fled Gladden Fields. If Isildur was so
worried about preserving the shards of Narsil, he must have been as
concerned about the Ring of Barahir. I would assume that not mentioning it
in the text is just an oversight on the part of Tolkien.

Or maybe he gave it to his wife when they married, thus it was in Annuminas
all the time.


>
> Now why typing this post, I've come to wonder why even Elendil would have
> had the ring. Surely it would have been lost in the downfall of Numenor
> with Ar-Pharazon. As I understand it, Elendil was merely a 'kinsman' of
> Ar-Pharazon (I could check the "Line of Elros" to find out his exact
> relationship, 2nd or 3rd cousin I would suppose).
>

ISTR, without referring to my books, that it passed to Silmarien (daughter
of Tar-Elendil) and thus was an heirloom of the Lords of Andunie, from
whence in the fullness of time, sprang Elendil.

Neil Anderson


A Tsar Is Born

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Jan 3, 2004, 11:13:01 AM1/3/04
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"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5ffd31d...@news.odyssey.net...

> >Just checked, Elendil was a far more distant relation than this. He was a
> >descendant of Tar-Elendil, 4th King of Numenor.
>
> ... which makes them 19th or 20th cousins. However, it seems likely
> that the senior and junior branches of the family would have
> intermarried over the generations, so probably they're closer than
> that.

Yes they did. IIRC, Pharazon's grandfather married Elendil's greataunt, or
something like that. Which still wouldn't get the ring into Elendil's line.
One has to assume it just wasn't that much valued by the royal house....

I agree that it's an oversight on JRRT's part: It's important when he thinks
of it; otherwise it's not.

Hey, Elendil and Isildur couldn't go fight a war with their hands all
encrusted with frumpery. They left it back home....

(WHAT were Isildur's wife and youngest child doing in Imladris, if they were
all in Minas Ithil when the war started?)

Tsar Parmathule


Christopher Kreuzer

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Jan 3, 2004, 12:09:00 PM1/3/04
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"A Tsar Is Born" <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> wrote
> "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote

> Yes they did. IIRC, Pharazon's grandfather married Elendil's greataunt, or
> something like that. Which still wouldn't get the ring into Elendil's
line.
> One has to assume it just wasn't that much valued by the royal house....
>
> I agree that it's an oversight on JRRT's part: It's important when he
thinks
> of it; otherwise it's not.

But he did think of it. It was an heirloom of the Lords of Andunie who were
the true descendents of Earendil after some dispute over the succession in
Numenor. Something to do with a daughter being the eldest heir but not
recognised as such.

What I've always wondered is why the Ring of Barahir would go to Elros. Was
he the elder son of Earendil with Elrond being younger, or was a desire to
see the ring remain in the mortal branch of the family?

> Hey, Elendil and Isildur couldn't go fight a war with their hands all
> encrusted with frumpery. They left it back home....
>
> (WHAT were Isildur's wife and youngest child doing in Imladris, if they
were
> all in Minas Ithil when the war started?)


The war lasted a _long_ time. Enought time for people to journey North to
safer areas.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard


A Tsar Is Born

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Jan 3, 2004, 2:23:54 PM1/3/04
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MGCJb.5761$IP4.57...@news-text.cableinet.net...

> What I've always wondered is why the Ring of Barahir would go to Elros.
Was
> he the elder son of Earendil with Elrond being younger, or was a desire to
> see the ring remain in the mortal branch of the family?

Since the ring has come to stand for the link between men and elves, and
Elrond doesn't really need to be reminded of that, Elros hangs onto it to
remind HIS descendants that a link exists. I guess.

Tsar Parmathule


mark edelstein

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Jan 3, 2004, 3:08:50 PM1/3/04
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one explanation may be that Elendil left the ring and the sceptre of
Andunie in Arnor before going to war. What is curious is that he
brought the Elendilmir as Isildur had it at the disaster.

Emma Pease

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Jan 3, 2004, 3:58:53 PM1/3/04
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Elendil and Isildur would have worn the Elendilmir as a sign of being
high king at times when they weren't in full armor (and possibly even
then). The ring represents friendship with the Elves but is not an
emblem of royalty nor would it have been needed in Gondor.

I would also agree with the others who see the ring as given to
Silmarian (sp?) as the eldest child for an heirloom of her line. Note
that the Kings of Numenor had many heirlooms of the first age such as
the sword of Thingol that were lost in the drowning of Numenor. The
ring of Barahir was only one of them.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Yuk Tang

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Jan 4, 2004, 6:51:10 AM1/4/04
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:MGCJb.5761$IP4.57...@news-text.cableinet.net:
>
> What I've always wondered is why the Ring of Barahir would go to
> Elros. Was he the elder son of Earendil with Elrond being younger,
> or was a desire to see the ring remain in the mortal branch of the
> family?

AFAWK he took everything he could, including Thingol's sword and Tuor's
axe. Hence my argument that Glamdring (Turgon's sword) could have been
claimed by Aragorn, if he'd wanted to. The explanation wrt Elrond's
disconnection from his Noldorin side doesn't really satisfy, since
Elros also takes the Telerin memento.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com

Aris Katsaris

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Jan 4, 2004, 9:16:50 AM1/4/04
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"Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94667991FC48j...@130.133.1.4...

> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
> news:MGCJb.5761$IP4.57...@news-text.cableinet.net:
> >
> > What I've always wondered is why the Ring of Barahir would go to
> > Elros. Was he the elder son of Earendil with Elrond being younger,
> > or was a desire to see the ring remain in the mortal branch of the
> > family?
>
> AFAWK he took everything he could, including Thingol's sword and Tuor's
> axe.

That's rather ass-backwards IMO, since the only reason you have of
thinking "he took everything he could" is a listing of the things that *did*
end up as heirlooms of the house of Elros.

We have no way of knowing if these were the whole, one half, one
quarter, or one *tenth* of the total number of heirlooms shared
between the brothers. Had we gotten a listing of the items held in
the house of Elrond instead, you might have said that *Elrond*
took everything he could.

Aris Katsaris


Yuk Tang

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Jan 4, 2004, 9:51:36 AM1/4/04
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"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in
news:bt97lc$25ft$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr:

AFAWK - As Far As We Know. We know that he took at least two of the
most significant items, the personal weapons of Thingol (Elwing's line)
and Tuor (Earendil's line). We know that weapons are regarded as
significant because of the ballyhoo over Narsil/Anduril and Aeglos in
LotR and UT. The fact that these weapons have been given names and are
regarded as pretty well-known adds to this assumption.

What other items are named in te ME material which would be seen as
being on a par with the stuff that Elros took? Turgon's sword, which
was lost in the fall of Gondolin (and which was found by Gandalf and co
in TH). The Silmaril and the Nauglamir certainly; however, the former
was taken by Elwing to the West, and thus could not be claimed by her
sons, while the latter was presumably discarded by her servants in the
flight from Doriath, or maybe even worn as part of the Silmaril.
Either way, again not available to the brothers. Other than those,
what else of the Earendil-Elwing inheritance is described?

The evidence we have is that Elros received the most significant items
from their shared ancestry. What we don't know is how they decided on
the division.

Dogger

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Jan 4, 2004, 3:40:21 PM1/4/04
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Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94669827C7BB8...@130.133.1.4>...

Consolation prizes for mortality? I like to think that Elrond may have
realised that a mortal line of kings has greater need for the
stability of tradition and the reminder of heritage provided by such
material things, and would graciously defer.

DB.

Yuk Tang

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Jan 4, 2004, 4:58:09 PM1/4/04
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dogge...@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
news:eed9768b.04010...@posting.google.com:
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xns94669827C7BB8...@130.133.1.4>...
>>
>> The evidence we have is that Elros received the most significant
>> items from their shared ancestry. What we don't know is how they
>> decided on the division.
>
> Consolation prizes for mortality? I like to think that Elrond may
> have realised that a mortal line of kings has greater need for the
> stability of tradition and the reminder of heritage provided by
> such material things, and would graciously defer.

Consolation prize? Their father would have thought that Elros got the
better deal of the two, even without taking the treasure into account.
Remember that mortality was Eru's *gift* to the Atani, that Elros chose
it of his own accord, and that Earendil would have done the same if
Elwing hadn't chosen otherwise.

IMO this was Tolkien's most beautiful creation, the idea that death was
God's gift to humanity, and that mortality was just humanity's yearning
to go into the great beyond. Its exploration is one of the reasons why
I feel that the Silm is such a 'greater' work than LotR.

Tamzin

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Jan 4, 2004, 5:44:21 PM1/4/04
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"Dogger" wrote

> Yuk Tang wrote re heirlooms to which Elrond and Elros might have been
entitled:

> > The evidence we have is that Elros received the most significant items
> > from their shared ancestry. What we don't know is how they decided on
> > the division.
>
> Consolation prizes for mortality? I like to think that Elrond may have
> realised that a mortal line of kings has greater need for the
> stability of tradition and the reminder of heritage provided by such
> material things, and would graciously defer.

Elros chose mortality. If he considered that he needed a "consolation
prize" for mortality why on earth did he not opt for immortality like his
brother? Imagine if they had both done so - do you think there would have
been much sibling rivalry? Would they both have wooed Celebrian? Etc etc
etc

Tamzin


Johnny1A

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Jan 4, 2004, 9:58:14 PM1/4/04
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Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94669827C7BB8...@130.133.1.4>...

>
> The evidence we have is that Elros received the most significant items
> from their shared ancestry. What we don't know is how they decided on
> the division.

Which is, IMO, probably to be expected. Elrond, IIRC, was to become
one of Gil-Galad's nobles, or lieutenants, while Elros was royalty
_himself_, first king of a whole new royal line. In that sense, Elros
outranked Elrond, or so it would appear to me.

Elrond never did himself achieve royal status.

Shermanlee

Johnny1A

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Jan 4, 2004, 10:04:01 PM1/4/04
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Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<slrnbveb8...@munin.Stanford.EDU>...

>
> I would also agree with the others who see the ring as given to
> Silmarian (sp?) as the eldest child for an heirloom of her line. Note
> that the Kings of Numenor had many heirlooms of the first age such as
> the sword of Thingol that were lost in the drowning of Numenor. The
> ring of Barahir was only one of them.

An alternative possibility: Ar-Pharazon left many or most of the
Royal heirlooms in the treasury at Armenelos when he set off on his
infamous futiliy foray in Valinor, and Elendil and Co.
stole/transfered for safekeeping the items to the escape fleet at
Ravenna. After all, that's more-or-less how they saved the line of
the White Tree.

Another possibility: Tar-Palantir, suspecting his daughter either of
King's Men sympathies or of being unequal to the task of controlling
things after he was gone, transfered the precious relics to the care
of the line of Amandil, openly or in secret.

Still another possibility: for a time, in spite of their political
and religious disagreements, Amandil and Pharazon were close friends.
After Sauron was brought to Numenor, they contended for influence with
the King. Maybe at some point, when Sauron was winning the struggle,
Amandil commented on the relics and Pharazon said something like, "You
want that worthless junk? Take it!"

(It wasn't monetarily worthless, but it's real significance was
religious or historic, and Pharazon was coming to the conclusion that
he hated his heritage.)

Shermanlee

Dogger

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Jan 5, 2004, 3:02:17 AM1/5/04
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"Tamzin" <tamzin...@OBEYMEtheponies.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<bta4un$7fh$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...

I'm not saying that Elros thought he needed a consolation prize. I'm
saying that Elrond might graciously allow Elros to claim the heirlooms
without asking for anything (maybe even offering them), thinking that
his brother's line of descendants would benefit more from
rediscovering them with every generation, than for Elrond or his sons
to keep them around in his closet for a thousand years. Elrond might
think of it as a consolation prize, because he didn't choose
mortality, he might pity his brother. Obviously they thought
differently on such matters. It's not necessary for Elros to demand a
consolation or to regret choosing mortality in order for this to
occur. It's also about where will the heirlooms do the most good,
where will the need be greatest for reminders of their heritage? That
seems to me an Elvish way to approach such decisions.

Plus I don't see the relevance of what would have happened if they had
both chosen mortality, since that didn't happen.

DB.

Neil Anderson

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Jan 5, 2004, 6:05:14 AM1/5/04
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"Johnny1A" <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b3030854.04010...@posting.google.com...

> Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:<slrnbveb8...@munin.Stanford.EDU>...
>
> >
> > I would also agree with the others who see the ring as given to
> > Silmarian (sp?) as the eldest child for an heirloom of her line. Note
> > that the Kings of Numenor had many heirlooms of the first age such as
> > the sword of Thingol that were lost in the drowning of Numenor. The
> > ring of Barahir was only one of them.
>
> <snip all speculation>

Note 2 to "A Deescription of Numenor" in UT -

"...Only the Ring of Barahir...survived the Downfall; for it was given by
Tar-Elendil to his daughter Silmarien and was preserved in the House of the
Lords of Andunie..."

This is an "Author's Note", that is written by JRRT himself.

Neil Anderson


Tamzin

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Jan 5, 2004, 5:02:23 PM1/5/04
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"Dogger" wrote
> "Tamzin" wrote

> > "Dogger" wrote
> >
> > > Yuk Tang wrote re heirlooms to which Elrond and Elros might have been
> > entitled:
> >
> > > > The evidence we have is that Elros received the most significant
items
> > > > from their shared ancestry. What we don't know is how they decided
on
> > > > the division.
> > >
> > > Consolation prizes for mortality? I like to think that Elrond may have
> > > realised that a mortal line of kings has greater need for the
> > > stability of tradition and the reminder of heritage provided by such
> > > material things, and would graciously defer.
> >
> > Elros chose mortality. If he considered that he needed a "consolation
> > prize" for mortality why on earth did he not opt for immortality like
his
> > brother? Imagine if they had both done so - do you think there would
have
> > been much sibling rivalry? Would they both have wooed Celebrian? Etc
etc
> > etc

> I'm not saying that Elros thought he needed a consolation prize. I'm


> saying that Elrond might graciously allow Elros to claim the heirlooms
> without asking for anything (maybe even offering them), thinking that
> his brother's line of descendants would benefit more from
> rediscovering them with every generation, than for Elrond or his sons
> to keep them around in his closet for a thousand years. Elrond might
> think of it as a consolation prize, because he didn't choose
> mortality, he might pity his brother. Obviously they thought
> differently on such matters. It's not necessary for Elros to demand a
> consolation or to regret choosing mortality in order for this to
> occur. It's also about where will the heirlooms do the most good,
> where will the need be greatest for reminders of their heritage? That
> seems to me an Elvish way to approach such decisions.

Yes I think you are probably right.

> Plus I don't see the relevance of what would have happened if they had
> both chosen mortality, since that didn't happen.

I like to wonder "What if?" about situations in fiction and LoTR is no
exception. As I wrote my post I began imagining what ME would have been
like if both Elrond and Elros had chosen immortality (not mortality!) and
thus had both been around at the time of LoTR. You are correct to say it
isn't strictly relevant to the topic but I am fond of letting my thoughts
wander off into areas of irrelevant conjecture :o)

Tamzin


Dogger

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Jan 5, 2004, 5:58:59 PM1/5/04
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Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9466E079C4F3A...@130.133.1.4>...

Let me clear this up once again a little more. I'm not arguing that
mortality is inferior in Tolkien, and thereby *deserves* a consolation
prize. That was just a phrase I chose ... the argument I made which
everyone is ignoring in favour of that phrase, is that Elros's mortal
descendants had greater need of reminders of their heritage, with the
much faster generational turnover. No one has disputed this central
point. So I still think it's quite understandable that Elros got the
goods. As for the phrase 'consolation prize' -- well obviously
according to the reactions it was the wrong choice of words and
distracted attention from what I was actually trying to get across. My
fault: I retract the phrase entirely. It was not a consolation prize.

DB.

Yuk Tang

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Jan 5, 2004, 6:58:21 PM1/5/04
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> Let me clear this up once again a little more. I'm not arguing
> that mortality is inferior in Tolkien, and thereby *deserves* a
> consolation prize. That was just a phrase I chose ... the argument
> I made which everyone is ignoring in favour of that phrase, is
> that Elros's mortal descendants had greater need of reminders of
> their heritage, with the much faster generational turnover. No one
> has disputed this central point. So I still think it's quite
> understandable that Elros got the goods. As for the phrase
> 'consolation prize' -- well obviously according to the reactions
> it was the wrong choice of words and distracted attention from
> what I was actually trying to get across. My fault: I retract the
> phrase entirely. It was not a consolation prize.

Sorry if I came across a bit strong, but what I meant was that Elrond
wouldn't have thought that Elros would have needed a consolation prize.
What's more likely, apart from Elros being the elder, is that Gil-galad
wouldn't have appreciated another having descendant of Finwe around
with the additional lineage of Elwe. So Elrond graciously jettisoned
all reminders of royalty, with Elros as the lucky recipient.

Dogger

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Jan 5, 2004, 10:06:29 PM1/5/04
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Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9468B70EFA5j...@130.133.1.4>...

> dogge...@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
> news:eed9768b.04010...@posting.google.com:
> >
> > Let me clear this up once again a little more. I'm not arguing
> > that mortality is inferior in Tolkien, and thereby *deserves* a
> > consolation prize. That was just a phrase I chose ... the argument
> > I made which everyone is ignoring in favour of that phrase, is
> > that Elros's mortal descendants had greater need of reminders of
> > their heritage, with the much faster generational turnover. No one
> > has disputed this central point. So I still think it's quite
> > understandable that Elros got the goods. As for the phrase
> > 'consolation prize' -- well obviously according to the reactions
> > it was the wrong choice of words and distracted attention from
> > what I was actually trying to get across. My fault: I retract the
> > phrase entirely. It was not a consolation prize.
>
> Sorry if I came across a bit strong,

Not at all. I may have been a little frustrated from having my central
point ignored by two different poster, that's all.

> but what I meant was that Elrond
> wouldn't have thought that Elros would have needed a consolation prize.
> What's more likely, apart from Elros being the elder, is that Gil-galad
> wouldn't have appreciated another having descendant of Finwe around
> with the additional lineage of Elwe. So Elrond graciously jettisoned
> all reminders of royalty, with Elros as the lucky recipient.

A good and interesting point. Perhaps both our reasons could have
pointed the way in Elrond's mind toward the wisdom of denying himself
the heirlooms. Incidentally, I still haven't worked out for myself the
proper lineage of Gil-galad (haven't gotten round to most of the HoME
yet). My understanding is that the Silmarillion version (in which he
is the son of Fingon) is apocryphal and now disavowed by Christopher
Tolkien, and that the latest lineage written by JRRT is that he is son
of Orodreth, who was son of Finrod. I found that confusing because
according to the Silm. Orodreth is Finrod's brother, not his son. So
is the current favoured interpretation that Gil-galad is a direct
descendant of Finrod via Orodreth, just of Finrod, or just of
Orodreth? (Or both?)

DB.

Tar-Elenion

unread,
Jan 6, 2004, 12:37:33 AM1/6/04
to
In article <eed9768b.04010...@posting.google.com>,
dogge...@yahoo.ca says...

<snip>

> Incidentally, I still haven't worked out for myself the
> proper lineage of Gil-galad (haven't gotten round to most of the HoME
> yet). My understanding is that the Silmarillion version (in which he
> is the son of Fingon) is apocryphal and now disavowed by Christopher
> Tolkien, and that the latest lineage written by JRRT is that he is son
> of Orodreth, who was son of Finrod. I found that confusing because
> according to the Silm. Orodreth is Finrod's brother, not his son. So
> is the current favoured interpretation that Gil-galad is a direct
> descendant of Finrod via Orodreth, just of Finrod, or just of
> Orodreth? (Or both?)

In that lineage Orodreth is the son of Angrod, and nephew of Finrod.

Here is something on the matter a posted a couple of years ago:

This is intended to be a 'primary world' history of the parentage of
Orodreth and Gil-galad and related matters.
It seems that Orodreth is the son of Finarfin (who was earlier named
Finrod), third son (and fifth child) of Finwe, up through 1958. He
appears as such in the 'Annals of Aman' (HoME 10), the 'Later Quenta
Silmarillion (I)' (HoME 10 and 11), and the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11).
These were initially written in ca. 1950-1952. Corrections and
emendations were made to these manuscripts and amanuensis typescripts,
including these changes, were made in 1958. Finarfin in these typescripts
is still called Finrod and his son Finrod Felagund is named Inglor. Later
JRRT begins to emend these typescripts with changes including the names
of Finrod and Inglor to Finarfin and Finrod and indications of the
removal of Orodreth from among Finarfin's children. Finarfin is named
Arafinwe in the earlier versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' which are dated to
1958 or earlier. The first unaltered appearence of the name: Finarfin (or
Finarphin) is in the later versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' and the 'Later
Quenta Silmarillion (II)' dated to 1959 (or later); while Finrod (for
previously Inglor) is in the 'Athrabeth' also dated to 1959 (or later).
In the 'Elessar' essay (UT) Galadriel refers to herself as the last of
Finrod's children, and names Angrod, Aegnor and Felagund as the others
but fails to mention Orodreth, who CT notes was removed and placed a
generation down.

Gil-galad first appears as a Feanorian (of unknown descent) in the Fall
of Numenor (II) (HoME 5). This is dated to not later than 1937. In the
original (I) versions of Many Meetings/Council of Elrond (At Rivendell,
HoME VI), dated to December 1938, Elrond states that Gil-galad is a
descendant of Feanor (which ties in with the original FNII). On an
'isolated' sheet associated with (III) version Gil-galad is said to be
son of 'Fin...' where the writing is illegible (CT notes that the fourth
letter is _possibly_ an 'r' but the name is definitely not Finrod), this
is struck out and 'Inglor?' is written in, this possibly dates to 1939 or
early 1940 (HoME VII). Though marked with a query this agrees with the
(III) version which has Gil-galad as son of Felagund seemingly through
its association with the new ending to the Fall of Numenor II which was
revised at the time of the writing of the third version of the Council of
Elrond. In an early alteration to the Quenta Silmarillion text of HoME V,
Felagund is mentioned as having a wife (Meril) and their son is Gil-
galad. In the T3 version of the Tale of Years (of the Second Age) Gil-
galad is the son of Felagund and this is also the case with 'Of the Rings
of Power'. 'RoP' was extant (in versions) by 1948 (L. 115), while the
'T3' version is no later than August of '50 and was likely written in
1949 (PoME).

At this point it seems that we have Orodreth as the son of Finarfin (or
rather Finrod) through 1958. Gil-galad is a Feanorian from ca. 1937
through ca. 1939. Gil-galad is the son of Finrod (or rather Inglor)
Felagund from ca. 1940 until ca. 1949.

In the Gray Annals it is said that Felagund had no wife and this is
consistant with Annals of Aman and the Later Quenta Silmarillion. That
Felagund had no wife is maintained up until Dec. 1959.

In a 'pencilled note' on the amanuensis typescript of the Grey Annals
Fingon is noted as the father of Gil-galad.

In a note (likely dated to Dec. 1959) to the genealogies (Finrod)
Felagund is again given a son, Artanaro Rhodothir, otherwise known as
Orodreth father of Finduilas. Later JRRT noted that Finrod had no child
and had left his wife in Aman. At this point Orodreth is now made the son
of Angrod (and renamed Artaresto) (PoME).

Now referring back to the 'Elessar' essay which must date from the time
before 'Inglor' became 'Finrod' as Finrod (ie Finarfin) is her father but
after or about the time Orodreth is made her nephew. That would tend to
date the Elessar essay to late 1959 or 1960 (which may indicate that the
'Athrabeth' should be dated into 1960 as it seems that name Finrod was
not given to Inglor until after Orodreth had been removed as his
brother).

In 'Aldarion and Erendis' Gil-galad is named 'Finellach Gil-galad of the
House of Finarfin'. In UT CT dates this work to 1965, though in PoME he
says this might be dated to 1960. JRRT notes this work as 'nearly
complete' in September of 1965 (L. 276). It seems that this must be later
than the 'Elessar' story (as Finarfin is used for Finrod). But it is not
impossible that Finarfin maintained the name Finrod for a time as well
before it was decided that Felagund should receive it. Gil-galad is also
called Finellach the 'Description of the Island of Numenor'.

It is not noted what parentage Gil-galad had as 'Finellach', though CT
notes this preceded by some time the making of Gil-galad into the son of
Orodreth, which happened in August of 1965 when 'scribbled at great
speed' a note, suggesting that Gil-galad (here named Rodnor/Artanaro)
should be the son Orodreth (Artaresto), son of Angrod, was written.

In the Elessar essay Celebrimbor is noted as a jewel smith of Gondolin,
though in a note JRRT wrote against that essay he says it would be better
to make Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor (PoME). This happened with the
Second Edition of RotK (1966). JRRT noted in one of his copies of this
edition that Celebrimbor had grown to love Finrod and his (unnamed) wife
while dwelling as a refugee in Nargothrond.

In the 1968 Shibboleth of Feanor, Orodreth is noted as 'Artaher' the son
of Angarato (Angrod) and Eldalote. Gil-galad (Ereinion) is referred to
with the Finarfinians and in a footnote is said to be the son of Artaher.

Orodreth is son of Finarfin until (it seems) 1959. Towards the end of
1959 he is made the son of Finrod Felagund. But this is then emended to
the son of Angrod, since Finrod had no wife. However in an undated note
on a 1966 copy of RotK Finrod is said to have a wife (in Nargothrond). In
the Shibboleth there is no mention of his having a wife. Through the
1950's Gil-galad was no longer Finrod's son as Finrod had no wife, and he
was noted as the son of Fingon on the 1958 typescript. Gil-galad returns
to being a Finarfinian in the '60's (possibly as late as 1965 or as early
as 1960). But who was his father considered to be in the Aldarion and
Erendis essay, before he was made the son of Orodreth? We only have him
being of the 'House of Finarfin'. When was the note made on the Second
Edition of RotK that suggests Finrod did have a wife in exile? What was
Gil-galad's lineage when he was descended from Feanor?


--
Tar-Elenion

Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.

A Tsar Is Born

unread,
Jan 6, 2004, 1:42:21 AM1/6/04
to

"Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a63e975f...@news.comcast.giganews.com...

> <snip>

Excellent summary of the highly conflicting material on this question.

Thanks much! May something rather stronger than starlight shine upon your
path and manuscripts.

Not that it solved anything for me; I'm still confused.

And who was Gildor Inglorion of the House of Felagund, anyway?

And were Amroth and Nimrodel related to anybody at all?

Tsar Parmathule


Tar-Elenion

unread,
Jan 6, 2004, 2:15:55 AM1/6/04
to
In article <hNsKb.33638$x34....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>,
Atsarisb...@hotmail.com says...

>
> "Tar-Elenion" <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a63e975f...@news.comcast.giganews.com...
>
> > <snip>
>
> Excellent summary of the highly conflicting material on this question.
>
> Thanks much! May something rather stronger than starlight shine upon your
> path and manuscripts.

You are welcome.
(If anyone notices any errors, let me know so that I can correct them).


>
> Not that it solved anything for me; I'm still confused.

Then I succeeded. :)

>
> And who was Gildor Inglorion of the House of Felagund, anyway?

House of Finrod. But it is unknown. Some suppose he was a son of Finrod,
others that he was just a member of Finrod's people.
There is, IMO, stronger textual support for the second.

>
> And were Amroth and Nimrodel related to anybody at all?

Of Amroth JRRT says "though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not
now known". I like to take this to mean they were related and JRRT was
just being mysterious and obsure (I picture their fathers, Oropher and
Amdir, as descendants of Thingol's brother, Elmo, but that is my own
supposition and not textual). Nimrodel was a Silvan Elf and none of her
kinsfolk are hinted at.

Dogger

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Jan 7, 2004, 7:11:41 PM1/7/04
to
Tar-Elenion <tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a63e975f...@news.comcast.giganews.com>...

Wow, that's a brainful. Not sure I can make sense of it, but assuming
that for now I am only interested in Tolkien's most recent settled
lineage and not on knowing any of the details of the earlier versions,
it seems that it is safe for me to believe (as you seemed to indicate
off the top) that Gil-galad is son of Orodreth, who is son of Angrod.
It seems at least two of the most *recent* references of Tolkien's
specifically state this, and that all contraindications are either
older or can't be precisely dated. I hope I am reading that evidence
right, so that when someone says, how do you know, I can say, 'The two
most recently dated references state it.'

And he can still be called 'Ereinion' as the son of Orodreth, right?
Or is that name solely associated with an older version of the
lineage? I think I've got it.... <scritch-scratching noggin>

DB.

Tar-Elenion

unread,
Jan 8, 2004, 7:47:59 PM1/8/04
to
<snip>

>
> Wow, that's a brainful. Not sure I can make sense of it, but assuming
> that for now I am only interested in Tolkien's most recent settled
> lineage and not on knowing any of the details of the earlier versions,
> it seems that it is safe for me to believe (as you seemed to indicate
> off the top) that Gil-galad is son of Orodreth, who is son of Angrod.
> It seems at least two of the most *recent* references of Tolkien's
> specifically state this, and that all contraindications are either
> older or can't be precisely dated. I hope I am reading that evidence
> right, so that when someone says, how do you know, I can say, 'The two
> most recently dated references state it.'

Yes, or you can link them to this article and confuse them enormously.
:)

>
> And he can still be called 'Ereinion' as the son of Orodreth, right?
> Or is that name solely associated with an older version of the
> lineage? I think I've got it.... <scritch-scratching noggin>

The name 'Ereinion' appears in the Shibboleth of 1968, so it does seem to
be the latest version of his name. So yes, that would be correct.

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