Purity of Language
Yuval Kfir
French and only French in public media. I would like to propose something
similar on the Tolkien newsgroups... This should be taken with a grain of
salt, but I am also semi-serious.
In the spirit of the Faithful Edain of Numenor, who kept their friendship
with the Eldar even when the Kings forbade them to do so, I suggest that we
start using the Elvish names for things we talk about. So we shall keep
alive the memory of the Quendi who are now gone.
For example, we talk about the Nazgul a lot. Nazgul was the name Sauron
gave them. In the Elvish tongue they were called Ulairi. On the other
side we have Imladris, Mithrandir, Amon Sul which sound so much better than
Rivendell, Gandalf, Weathertop. English is a translation-of-a-translation
for those places: it is the translation of the Common Speech, which in
itself was but a descendant of Sindarin and Mannish combined. Why not use
the "true" names of things?
Recall how the beginning of the abandonment of Quenya names for the Kings
of Numenor also marked the beginning of the Downfall of Numenor. Let us
not make the same mistake, but keep alive the languages of the Firstborn.
When the Zionists started settling in Israel (then Palestine), they revived
the Hebrew language for their daily use, though it was a "frozen" scripture
language for 2,000 years. There used to be a slogan in the early days of
the state: "Hebrew [meaning member of the Hebrew people], speak Hebrew!"
Likewise I say: "Elf-friend, speak Elvish!"
No, I am not a complete kook... Weird, maybe. In total seriousness, I
think it would be very nice to see more Elvish in these newsgroups, as much
as possible. Yes, I am aware of the TolkLang mailing list. I don't want
to start discussing the linguistic aspects of Tolkien (at least not all the
time), but I do think it is appropriate, when conducting a discussion of
his world, to use his names for things.
Support, anyone?
Namarie!
--
Yuval Kfir | E-mail to: kf...@Indigo.co.il
[does not represent:] | Voice: 972-838-1846 +----------------------+
Indigo Ltd., Israel | Fax: 972-840-8091 | WHAT, ME DISCLAIMER? |
+----------------------+
"My opinions may change but not the fact that I am right."
Jan Ingvoldstad
In article <1994Apr27.0...@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il>, wnjo...@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Yuval Kfir) writes:
> I heard on the news that France had passed a law which enforces the use of
> French and only French in public media. I would like to propose something
> similar on the Tolkien newsgroups... This should be taken with a grain of
> salt, but I am also semi-serious.
>
> In the spirit of the Faithful Edain of Numenor, who kept their friendship
> with the Eldar even when the Kings forbade them to do so, I suggest that we
> start using the Elvish names for things we talk about. So we shall keep
> alive the memory of the Quendi who are now gone.
Hmm... *thinking abit* - nah, let's keep my answer to that on hold ;)
>
> For example, we talk about the Nazgul a lot. Nazgul was the name Sauron
> gave them. In the Elvish tongue they were called Ulairi. On the other
> side we have Imladris, Mithrandir, Amon Sul which sound so much better than
> Rivendell, Gandalf, Weathertop. English is a translation-of-a-translation
> for those places: it is the translation of the Common Speech, which in
> itself was but a descendant of Sindarin and Mannish combined. Why not use
> the "true" names of things?
I don't really think there are any "true" names on things within the creation
of Eru. Any names are as good as others, Tolkien wrote'm all :) Still I agree
that "Mithrandir" and "Tar Manwa Tyalieva" sound better than the "English"
corresponding names.
>
> Recall how the beginning of the abandonment of Quenya names for the Kings
> of Numenor also marked the beginning of the Downfall of Numenor. Let us
> not make the same mistake, but keep alive the languages of the Firstborn.
>
> When the Zionists started settling in Israel (then Palestine), they revived
> the Hebrew language for their daily use, though it was a "frozen" scripture
> language for 2,000 years. There used to be a slogan in the early days of
> the state: "Hebrew [meaning member of the Hebrew people], speak Hebrew!"
> Likewise I say: "Elf-friend, speak Elvish!"
>
But aren't we as much friends of the:
1) Ainur
2) humans
3) dwarves
4) animals
and other spirits of Ea? Not that I've forgotten Eru either... I think that it
is arguably OK to use ANY of the languages of Middle-Earth, and even that of
the Elves in Valinor, except, of course, the Black Speech ;=)
>
> No, I am not a complete kook... Weird, maybe. In total seriousness, I
> think it would be very nice to see more Elvish in these newsgroups, as much
> as possible. Yes, I am aware of the TolkLang mailing list. I don't want
> to start discussing the linguistic aspects of Tolkien (at least not all the
> time), but I do think it is appropriate, when conducting a discussion of
> his world, to use his names for things.
>
Hehe.. Well, you're not totally lost :) But remember that Tolkien himself used
several elvish languages, so which would you want us to use?
> Support, anyone?
>
Not my full.
J<>I
Laurelin of Middle Earth
>... [snip]
>In the spirit of the Faithful Edain of Numenor, who kept their friendship
>with the Eldar even when the Kings forbade them to do so, I suggest that we
>start using the Elvish names for things we talk about. So we shall keep
>alive the memory of the Quendi who are now gone.
'Tis a noble sentiment, but IMHO not very practical, I'm sorry to admit. I
read this newsgroup from my office, where I do not have a copy of the books at
hand. I have read them, *all* of them, many many times, and yet I still do not
necessarily remember the Quendi names (or any of the other languages, for that
matter) when pressed for time (if at all). I would not wish to inhibit anybody
from posting due to fear of flamage at "little" details.
Now, before I'm flamed, let me say that I don't think these details are
"little" at all, in fact they are a big part of what makes the whole of Middle
Earth feel so real, so deep. But I do think that it would be expecting a lot
to ask people to memorize several languages' worth of alternate names for
people, places, objects, etc., when clearly they can describe the event/idea
using the English translation of Common Speech. We are, after all, (most of
us, anyway), commoners; it is befitting that we use the Common Speech.
Just my opinion, nothing more.
-- lauri
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Lauri Loebel Carpenter "All that is gold does not glitter, |
| la...@elwing.fnal.gov Not all those who wander are lost..." - JRRT |
| #include <std.disclaimer> /* I only speak for myself */ |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Robert Hill
For some things the Quenya or Sindarin word comes to mind approximately
as readily as the English, or more readily. But not all.
I don't think of the Hithaeglir, I think of the Misty Mountains.
For all I know Tolkien didn't even invent the word Ulairi until after
The Lord of The Rings was published, so I shall go on calling them Nazgul.
--
Robert Hill
"Though all my wares be trash, my heart is true."
- John Dowland, Fine Knacks for Ladies (1600)
Jed Wyrick
>I heard on the news that France had passed a law which enforces the use of
>French and only French in public media. I would like to propose something
>similar on the Tolkien newsgroups... This should be taken with a grain of
>salt, but I am also semi-serious.
I hate to disagree with you, but I am very suspicious of official
language declarations. As if the French are just suddenly going to start
speaking German--not too likely. By the way, the real people who suffer
under this rule are people who speak minority languages in France, but
which are every bit as integral to the lands of France as French
itself--eg. Breton, Basque, the German/French of Alsace Lorainne, and the
southern Romance "dialects"/languages.
>When the Zionists started settling in Israel (then Palestine), they revived
>the Hebrew language for their daily use, though it was a "frozen" scripture
>language for 2,000 years. There used to be a slogan in the early days of
>the state: "Hebrew [meaning member of the Hebrew people], speak Hebrew!"
>Likewise I say: "Elf-friend, speak Elvish!"
ani lo mascim
Here too--what this effectively meant was the eradication of Yiddish in
Palestine. By the way, you could just as easily say, "Yid, redt af Yiddish!"
(trans. "Jew, speak Yiddish")
(Sorry for that...)
I do like the idea of everyone speaking Elvish more, however. In
this case, it's Elvish that's the minority language (although there's
really no danger that the Black Tongue is going to replace it--we have
only one word in common parlance (Nazgul) anyway.
>Namarie!
Jedediah
Yuval Kfir
I forgot:
What started me on this thought was the fact that many posters here use
Elvish incorrectly. If you use Elvish, speak properly! The major problem
(or maybe it is the only one) is distinguishing between plural and singular
forms:
Olorin and Sauron were Maiar, but alone each is a Maia.
Melkor was a powerful Ainu, not "an Ainur". Ainur is plural.
From a recent post: Beren was not "an Edain", he was an Adan.
Feanor was the greatest Noldo that ever lived.
Gandalf was one of the Istari, he was an Istar (not sure about this
one but Istari is certainly plural).
Merry and Pippin were known in Gondor as "the Periannath", because
each was a Perian, a halfling.
Just as you wouldn't say that Aragorn was a great men, and Elrond was a wise
Elves, please do not call Manwe the holiest Valar. He was (and is) the
holiest Vala.
I trust I got my point across in this articles!
Laurelin of Middle Earth
>Sorry for following-up my own post, but I meant to say one more thing and
>I forgot:
>
>What started me on this thought was the fact that many posters here use
>Elvish incorrectly. If you use Elvish, speak properly! The major problem
>(or maybe it is the only one) is distinguishing between plural and singular
>forms:
I'm sure that many (most?) of us read other newsgroups and/or are involved in
other mailing lists. In all likelihood these lists cross international and
language boundaries. I'm sure that we've frequently seen posts written in
[pick-a-language] by a non-native speaker where the grammatical details were
incorrect, but the concept was clear. (For that matter, I'm sure we've all
seen grammatically incorrect postings from *native* speakers!) I would hope
that all of us are tolerant of these mistakes, and read the posts for their
content, not their grammatical quality. (Although I will admit that it is
sometimes difficult to discern the content when the grammar is really
mutilated...)
In the same vein, none of us are fluent in the languages of Middle Earth. We
are all bound to make mistakes of pluralization, spelling, and other general
usage. The concept and content of the message is clear. Let's not harp on the
details.
Carl F. Hostetter
(Robert Hill) wrote:
> In article <1994Apr28.0...@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il>, wnjo...@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Yuval Kfir) writes:
> > Merry and Pippin were known in Gondor as "the Periannath", because
> > each was a Perian, a halfling.
>
> When they were being nominative. There's also "Ernil i Pheriannath",
> --
> "Prince of the Halflings". Maybe we need to take care to get case right
> as well as number.
Actually, if you'll permit a little pedantry here (which isn't asking
much in an already pedantic subject!), the fact that we have
_Pheriannath_ in this phrase is only indirectly due to _its_ case (since
we really can't speak of "case" in the Sindarin noun: it has only one);
rather, it is caused by the fact that the underlying form of the article
here is possessive (genitive) plural, _in_. What we have here is a
classic case of the spirant mutation (Tolkien calls it the "nasal"
mutation, cf. _Letters_ p. 426): *_in Periannath_ > _i Pheriannath_.
--
|===================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter ca...@class.gsfc.nasa.gov |
| |
| Ars longa, vita brevis. |
| The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
| "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
| such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
|===================================================================|
Seoirse Crowley
>Sorry for following-up my own post, but I meant to say one more thing and
>I forgot:
>What started me on this thought was the fact that many posters here use
>Elvish incorrectly. If you use Elvish, speak properly! The major problem
>(or maybe it is the only one) is distinguishing between plural and singular
>forms:
<various 'corrections' deleted>
Your sentiments, to improve the 'quality' of diction and spelling of
the various elvish tounges, are admirable; unfortunately your suggestions
(and I include the suggestion to have 'Elvish only' naming etc..) are
impractical at the least and rather ignorant at worst. Not everyone in
this group is a scholar of Tolkien's languages; of course it would be
nice if we could all speak Quenya fluently, but we can't; most readers
and contributors to the group (IMHO) are quite happy with the usual
mish-mash of all JRRT's languages plus, of course, a good dose of English
as well.
Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
>Just as you wouldn't say that Aragorn was a great men, and Elrond was a wise
>Elves, please do not call Manwe the holiest Valar. He was (and is) the
>holiest Vala.
Hmmm. I agree about the plurals; but, without getting into a religious debate,
(if you are serious, I'm not sure) I dunno about 'is the holiest Vala' -
Tolkien's works were _fantasy_, and not intended to be any sort of bible
to spring a new religion (although of course he did relate much of his
own religious feelings to the Vala etc - but philosophically, I think).
Of course, you may belive whatever you want I suppose.
Seo.
Robert Hill
> I forgot:
>
> What started me on this thought was the fact that many posters here use
> Elvish incorrectly. If you use Elvish, speak properly! The major problem
> (or maybe it is the only one) is distinguishing between plural and singular
> forms:
> Olorin and Sauron were Maiar, but alone each is a Maia.
> Melkor was a powerful Ainu, not "an Ainur". Ainur is plural.
> From a recent post: Beren was not "an Edain", he was an Adan.
> Feanor was the greatest Noldo that ever lived.
> Gandalf was one of the Istari, he was an Istar (not sure about this
> one but Istari is certainly plural).
Yes, Istar is the correct singular.
> Merry and Pippin were known in Gondor as "the Periannath", because
> each was a Perian, a halfling.
When they were being nominative. There's also "Ernil i Pheriannath",
--
"Prince of the Halflings". Maybe we need to take care to get case right
as well as number.
> Just as you wouldn't say that Aragorn was a great men, and Elrond was a wise
> Elves, please do not call Manwe the holiest Valar. He was (and is) the
> holiest Vala.
>
> I trust I got my point across in this articles!
I support you on this, though, as I've already indicated,
not on everything you said in your previous post.
Yet Tolkien used "Balrogs", not "Belryg"!
Robert Hill
> In article <1994Apr27.0...@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> kf...@Indigo.co.il (Yuval Kfir) writes:
> >I heard on the news that France had passed a law which enforces the use of
> >French and only French in public media. I would like to propose something
> >similar on the Tolkien newsgroups... This should be taken with a grain of
> >salt, but I am also semi-serious.
>
> I hate to disagree with you, but I am very suspicious of official
> language declarations. As if the French are just suddenly going to start
> speaking German--not too likely.
We're getting away from Tolkien here, but the threat to French is of course
from English, or American, or Franglais.
Not that I support the law in question, but I can sympathize with the
concerns that led to it. I sometimes think that there ought to be an
English-speaking equivalent of the Academie Francaise, to halt, for
example, the loss of meaning of the verb "refute".
--
Robert Hill
"Though all my wares be trash, my heart is true."
John Blaser
Carl F. Hostetter <ca...@class.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>Actually, if you'll permit a little pedantry here (which isn't asking
>much in an already pedantic subject!), the fact that we have
>_Pheriannath_ in this phrase is only indirectly due to _its_ case (since
>we really can't speak of "case" in the Sindarin noun: it has only one);
>rather, it is caused by the fact that the underlying form of the article
>here is possessive (genitive) plural, _in_. What we have here is a
>classic case of the spirant mutation (Tolkien calls it the "nasal"
>mutation, cf. _Letters_ p. 426): *_in Periannath_ > _i Pheriannath_.
For once in my life I agree with the phrase "Ignorance is bliss."
j.b.
John Blaser
jbl...@ncrel.org
Oak Brook, IL (just outside Chicago) USA
Carl F. Hostetter
(Seoirse Crowley) wrote:
> Your sentiments, to improve the 'quality' of diction and spelling of
> the various elvish tounges, are admirable; unfortunately your suggestions
> (and I include the suggestion to have 'Elvish only' naming etc..) are
> impractical at the least and rather ignorant at worst. Not everyone in
> this group is a scholar of Tolkien's languages; of course it would be
> nice if we could all speak Quenya fluently, but we can't; most readers
> and contributors to the group (IMHO) are quite happy with the usual
> mish-mash of all JRRT's languages plus, of course, a good dose of English
> as well.
I fail to see how you can honestly claim that the original poster's
sentiments
are "ignorant". He is obviously quite cognizant that "not everyone in this
group is a scholar of Tolkien's languages"; his list of common errors
demonstrates that fact quite clearly.
> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
Nonsense. It can also be classed as a genuine love for Tolkien's Elvish
languages, and a willingness to share his knowledge. You are right to
point to the impracticality of his sentiment; but to declare that it _must_
be due to "elitism" can easily be classed as Marxist/PC politico-babble.
GERNOT_KATZER
> In <1994Apr28.0...@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il>
> wnjo...@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Yuval Kfir) writes:
> >What started me on this thought was the fact that many posters here use
> >Elvish incorrectly. If you use Elvish, speak properly! The major problem
> >(or maybe it is the only one) is distinguishing between plural and singular
> >forms:
> <various 'corrections' deleted>
> Your sentiments, to improve the 'quality' of diction and spelling of
> the various elvish tounges, are admirable; unfortunately your suggestions
> (and I include the suggestion to have 'Elvish only' naming etc..) are
> impractical at the least and rather ignorant at worst. Not everyone in
> this group is a scholar of Tolkien's languages; of course it would be
> nice if we could all speak Quenya fluently, but we can't; most readers
> and contributors to the group (IMHO) are quite happy with the usual
> mish-mash of all JRRT's languages plus, of course, a good dose of English
> as well.
Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
English? Every Tolkien reader should know the name "Imladris", because
it appears in "The Lord of the Rings"; But do you know what "Bruchtal",
"Auenland" (Suza) or "Nebelgebirge" (Hithaeglir) is? Until I started
this newsgroup, I have not ever heard of the English names "Rivendell",
"Shire" or "Misty Mountains". I think, usage of Elvish or other
Tolkienesque names is, when possible, clear to everyone.
Note that I do not want everyone to write the article in Quenya (or
whatever, Tolkien invented a lot of fine languages), but to use
"original" names for persons and places wherever possible.
> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
No, it's just the opposite of "english-centrism".
--
| Gernot Katzer
How does a system manager change a light bulb? | kat...@bkfug.kfunigraz.ac.at
| kat...@balu.kfunigraz.ac.at
He doesn't. He just denies access to everyone to |
the area served by the light bulb in question. | NEVER make me sysmgr!
|
Petteri Sulonen
>I heard on the news that France had passed a law which enforces the use of
>French and only French in public media. I would like to propose something
>similar on the Tolkien newsgroups... This should be taken with a grain of
>salt, but I am also semi-serious.
[snip]
>Likewise I say: "Elf-friend, speak Elvish!"
Oh, go break a leg. :-)
>time), but I do think it is appropriate, when conducting a discussion of
>his world, to use his names for things.
I agree, but he _did_ invent the B.S. and the English names too -- and I'm not
going to start discussing the doings of Banaziir Galpsi or Kalimak Brandagamba
just because they're the "real" names of Sam and Merry.
By all means use whatever names you like -- but don't be surprised if some not
as well-versed in the books as you will be puzzled.
-- Petteri
Petteri Sulonen
>Sorry for following-up my own post, but I meant to say one more thing and
>I forgot:
>What started me on this thought was the fact that many posters here use
>Elvish incorrectly. If you use Elvish, speak properly! The major problem
Please! This shouldn't be reserved only for hard-core Tolkienologists who can
decline Sindarin words off the top of their hats. Trying to enforce rules
like this can really kill a discussion: if you don't post an interesting
thought just because you're not sure whether to use _enyd_ or _onodrim_
(or maybe _ened_) everybody loses. No language-policing here, thanks.
Not everybody here writes perfect English either, and nobody complains about
that. Let's not allow form to supersede function.
-- Petteri
Esch van J
>Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
>English? Every Tolkien reader should know the name "Imladris", because
>it appears in "The Lord of the Rings"; But do you know what "Bruchtal",
>"Auenland" (Suza) or "Nebelgebirge" (Hithaeglir) is? Until I started
>this newsgroup, I have not ever heard of the English names "Rivendell",
>"Shire" or "Misty Mountains". I think, usage of Elvish or other
>Tolkienesque names is, when possible, clear to everyone.
Hmm, I don't think it is embarrassing to ask another member of this group
(preferably by mail) what a certain word means. Discussion will be rather
limited if words like Shire and Rivendell can not be used.
-Jeroen van Esch
Esch van J
>In article <dcrowley....@unix1.tcd.ie>, dcro...@unix1.tcd.ie
>(Seoirse Crowley) wrote:
>
>> Your sentiments, to improve the 'quality' of diction and spelling of
>> the various elvish tounges, are admirable; unfortunately your suggestions
>> (and I include the suggestion to have 'Elvish only' naming etc..) are
>> impractical at the least and rather ignorant at worst. Not everyone in
>> this group is a scholar of Tolkien's languages; of course it would be
>> nice if we could all speak Quenya fluently, but we can't; most readers
>> and contributors to the group (IMHO) are quite happy with the usual
>> mish-mash of all JRRT's languages plus, of course, a good dose of English
>> as well.
>
>I fail to see how you can honestly claim that the original poster's
>sentiments
>are "ignorant". He is obviously quite cognizant that "not everyone in this
>group is a scholar of Tolkien's languages"; his list of common errors
>demonstrates that fact quite clearly.
>
>> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
>
>Nonsense. It can also be classed as a genuine love for Tolkien's Elvish
>languages, and a willingness to share his knowledge. You are right to
>point to the impracticality of his sentiment; but to declare that it _must_
>be due to "elitism" can easily be classed as Marxist/PC politico-babble.
There are special newsgroup, or at least some mailing lists, around on
Elvish languages. I think this group gets too technical to be enjoyable
already sometimes for those who have only read LotR.
-Jeroen van Esch
Robert Hill
> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
_Insisting_ on it might be so classed; _aspiring_ to it, no.
Actually, I think some people have more of an instinctive feel for languages
than others; after reading the Sil even once, without necessarily having
made any effort to learn any Quenya at all, it feels as wrong and unnatural
to them to say "a Maiar" as to say "a men" (or the equivalent in their
native language). When they read something like "a Maiar"
written by somebody else, it grates, they can't help but notice it.
There's something of this in me, though I don't consider myself in any way
a linguist: my education was mathematical.
Bob Goudreau
>
>Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
>
>> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
>
>No, it's just the opposite of "english-centrism".
Really? It's Anglo-centric to use the original English names that an
Englishman used in the course of writing English language literature?
Do tell.
It seems to me that it's the other way around: it should be incumbent
upon those who *didn't* read the canonical form of the work in
question (i.e., the author's original work in his original language)
to use the canonical terms when discussing that work in the author's
native language.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
Laurelin of Middle Earth
>In article <dcrowley....@unix1.tcd.ie>,
>dcro...@unix1.tcd.ie (Seoirse Crowley) writes:
>
>> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
>
>_Insisting_ on it might be so classed; _aspiring_ to it, no.
>
>Actually, I think some people have more of an instinctive feel for languages
>than others; after reading the Sil even once, without necessarily having
>made any effort to learn any Quenya at all, it feels as wrong and unnatural
>to them to say "a Maiar" as to say "a men" (or the equivalent in their
>native language). When they read something like "a Maiar"
>written by somebody else, it grates, they can't help but notice it.
>There's something of this in me, though I don't consider myself in any way
>a linguist: my education was mathematical.
>
It is my belief that mathematical prowess, grammatical prowess (as described
above), and musical prowess all seem to go hand-in-hand. I believe there was
some research a while back on how all of these (plus some others) use the same
portions of the brain. All of these are forms of abstract symbol manipulation.
Does this mean that JRRTolkien was a frustrated mathematician? ;-)
Robert Hill
> In article <1994Apr28....@leeds.ac.uk>, ec...@sun.leeds.ac.uk
> (Robert Hill) wrote:
>
> > In article <1994Apr28.0...@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il>, wnjo...@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Yuval Kfir) writes:
>
> > > Merry and Pippin were known in Gondor as "the Periannath", because
> > > each was a Perian, a halfling.
> >
> > When they were being nominative. There's also "Ernil i Pheriannath",
> > --
> > "Prince of the Halflings". Maybe we need to take care to get case right
> > as well as number.
>
> Actually, if you'll permit a little pedantry here (which isn't asking
> much in an already pedantic subject!), the fact that we have
> _Pheriannath_ in this phrase is only indirectly due to _its_ case (since
> we really can't speak of "case" in the Sindarin noun: it has only one);
> rather, it is caused by the fact that the underlying form of the article
> here is possessive (genitive) plural, _in_. What we have here is a
> classic case of the spirant mutation (Tolkien calls it the "nasal"
> mutation, cf. _Letters_ p. 426): *_in Periannath_ > _i Pheriannath_.
I sit corrected (to say nothing of stupefied).
--
Robert Hill
"Though all my wares be trash, my heart is true."
Loren Williams
> Yet Tolkien used "Balrogs", not "Belryg"!
Well, I believe it was when the various speakers were speaking Westron.
Most Westron-speakers were probably as ignorant of Elvish grammar as most
of us are, and we can easily imagine that Westron had absorbed bits of
Elvish that were - shall we say? - incompletely digested. This is a
phenomenon that JRRT no doubt understood.
I think this string is fascinating, and deals with one of JRRT's real loves
- the creation of languages and their use. I like to think that he would
have enjoyed knowing that we're talking about this so seriously.
/ljw
NOTEBOOM,Erin./PPE
>In article <2pmjd8$2...@scunix2.harvard.edu>, wyr...@husc7.harvard.edu (Jed Wyrick) writes:
>> In article <1994Apr27.0...@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> kf...@Indigo.co.il (Yuval Kfir) writes:
>> >I heard on the news that France had passed a law which enforces the use of
>> >French and only French in public media. I would like to propose something
>> >similar on the Tolkien newsgroups... This should be taken with a grain of
>> >salt, but I am also semi-serious.
>>
>> I hate to disagree with you, but I am very suspicious of official
>> language declarations. As if the French are just suddenly going to start
>> speaking German--not too likely.
>
>We're getting away from Tolkien here, but the threat to French is of course
>from English, or American, or Franglais.
>
I'm one of those people who doesn't use "smilies" because I have
not figured out how to punctuate them. I'm the founding member of
the "`Hopefully' is an Adverb (and other lost causes)" Society. I
believe in the purity of language.
But the first principle of langauge is clarity. Franglais words
like "jetlag," "background" and "weekend," though terribly unmelodious,
especially in French, express concepts for which there is no equivalent
word in French. They are valuable additions. In the same spirit of
clarity, I don't think it's a good idea to use Quenya (Quenyi?) proper
nouns in place of more familiar equilavalents. I can only think of
half a dozen word where most readers of this group would even *know*
two versions; in these cases, I think one should choose for effect, as
the Master himself says when discussing Winchester and Camelot in the
"Note on Translation" in TLotR.
>Not that I support the law in question, but I can sympathize with the
>concerns that led to it. I sometimes think that there ought to be an
>English-speaking equivalent of the Academie Francaise, to halt, for
>example, the loss of meaning of the verb "refute".
Hear, hear. Want to join the "Hopefully is an Adverb" society, Robert?
>--
>Robert Hill
>
>"Though all my wares be trash, my heart is true."
> - John Dowland, Fine Knacks for Ladies (1600)
Cheers,
Erin (note...@vxcern.cern.ch)
"Language is dialect with an army."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown
>In article <dcrowley....@unix1.tcd.ie>, dcro...@unix1.tcd.ie (Seoirse Crowley) writes:
>
>> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
>
>_Insisting_ on it might be so classed; _aspiring_ to it, no.
And even if it were, what the heck is wrong with elitism? Has the
dumbing of America (and, following in its footsteps, of the world)
proceeded so far that striving to be the best possible is now a bad
thing? It is the elite (including JRRT) who are responsible for all the
world's great art, scientific advances, and generally every useful
invention starting with fire and the wheel.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems br...@Ncoast.ORG
Can't find FAQ lists? ftp to 'rtfm.mit.edu' and look in /pub/usenet
(or email me >>> with valid reply-to address <<< for instructions).
I can also send "newbie" information on Usenet--just ask if you want it.
Ron Mayer
<63128....@ncrel.org> "John Blaser" <jbl...@ncrel.org>:
>Carl F. Hostetter <ca...@class.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>Actually, if you'll permit a little pedantry here (which isn't asking
>>much in an already pedantic subject!), the fact that we have
>>_Pheriannath_ in this phrase is only indirectly due to _its_ case (since
>>we really can't speak of "case" in the Sindarin noun: it has only one);
>>rather, it is caused by the fact that the underlying form of the article
>>here is possessive (genitive) plural, _in_. What we have here is a
>>classic case of the spirant mutation (Tolkien calls it the "nasal"
>>mutation, cf. _Letters_ p. 426): *_in Periannath_ > _i Pheriannath_.
>
>For once in my life I agree with the phrase "Ignorance is bliss."
[ I guess I should assume there's a :-) missing there; but just in case...]
I'll disagree. While I'll be the first to admit that it'd take me
a month of research to follow what Carl just wrote (and I'll save the
article and when my work load lightens up I'll probably try it);
personally I love seeing evidense that there is more depth to (at
least the linguistic aspect of) Tolkien's works than any of us are
ever likely to realize.
Many thanks, Carl, for your incredibly in depth analysis.
Ron
NOTEBOOM,Erin./PPE
(GERNOT_KATZER) writes...
[post that GK is replying to sniped for space]
>
>Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
>English?
Embarrasingly enough, no. I am curious, though. In the orgional
(English) version of TLotR, Tolkien took great care not only in
giving places which are familiar to the Hobbits names which are
more or less "English," but also in suggesting some of the history
of the world by the relationships of other place names *to* English.
("Bree," for example, is Celtic(ish) and the historical relation
between the Shire and Bree is suggested by the relation between
(Saxon)English and Celtic.) I have always found this to be one of
the richest parts of the invented place names in the book. I would
think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
"English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
other. How is it handled?
I don't mean to give offence; I'm genuinely curious and would like to
know.
>it appears in "The Lord of the Rings"; But do you know what "Bruchtal",
>"Auenland" (Suza) or "Nebelgebirge" (Hithaeglir) is? Until I started
>this newsgroup, I have not ever heard of the English names "Rivendell",
>"Shire" or "Misty Mountains". I think, usage of Elvish or other
>Tolkienesque names is, when possible, clear to everyone.
Perhaps so, when possible. But I (though I am a more casual fan of
Tolkien than many of the other readers of this group) would have to
think hard to come up with the Elvish words that I would recognize.
Without a reference handy, for example, I have no idea what "Hithaeglir"
is. Perhaps we should be bi-lingual when possible, but I don't think
using Elvish words will increase the clarity of discussion much. A
certain amount of "english-centrism" is (though regretable) unavoidable
on what is essentially an English language news group.
[in response to a charge of "elitism"]
>No, it's just the opposite of "english-centrism".
| Gernot Katzer
>How does a system manager change a light bulb? | kat...@bkfug.kfunigraz.ac.at
> | kat...@balu.kfunigraz.ac.at
>He doesn't. He just denies access to everyone to |
>the area served by the light bulb in question. | NEVER make me sysmgr!
> |
Cheers,
Erin (note...@vxcern.cern.ch)
Carl F. Hostetter
(NOTEBOOM,Erin./PPE) wrote:
> I am curious, though. In the orgional
> (English) version of TLotR, Tolkien took great care not only in
> giving places which are familiar to the Hobbits names which are
> more or less "English," but also in suggesting some of the history
> of the world by the relationships of other place names *to* English.
> ("Bree," for example, is Celtic(ish) and the historical relation
> between the Shire and Bree is suggested by the relation between
> (Saxon)English and Celtic.) I have always found this to be one of
> the richest parts of the invented place names in the book. I would
> think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
> translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
> "English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
> this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
> of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
> other. How is it handled?
A very good question, and one which Tolkien himself attempted
to address, in his "Guide to the Names in _The Lord of the Rings_",
which has been published in _A Tolkien Compass_ (ed. Jared Lobdell),
available as a Ballantine paperback.
Carl F. Hostetter
Mayer) wrote:
> While I'll be the first to admit that it'd take me
> a month of research to follow what Carl just wrote (and I'll save the
> article and when my work load lightens up I'll probably try it);
> personally I love seeing evidense that there is more depth to (at
> least the linguistic aspect of) Tolkien's works than any of us are
> ever likely to realize.
Indeed. I and my colleagues in Tolkienian linguistics fill hundreds of
pages every year with the results of our research, but we still are
just scratching the surface. We all take great joy in following
Tolkien along the paths of _his_ greatest joy.
> Many thanks, Carl, for your incredibly in depth analysis.
Your welcome; any time.
John Blaser
>
>Your welcome; any time.
Now THAT's funny. So much for purity of language.
Carl F. Hostetter
(Carl F. Hostetter) wrote:
> In article <MAYER.94M...@orthanc.sono.uucp>, ma...@sono.uucp (Ron
> Mayer) wrote:
>
> > Many thanks, Carl, for your incredibly in depth analysis.
>
> Your welcome; any time.
^^^^
Oops! I'm all too human, it seems.
Petteri Sulonen
>the richest parts of the invented place names in the book. I would
>think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
>translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
>"English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
>this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
>of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
>other. How is it handled?
The Finnish translation at least attempts to handle this and succeeds
quite well, in my opinion. The translators pretty much translated all
of the English names that are more or less recognizable (up to Michel
Delving --> Jarin Moyrema (insert umlauts on each of the a and o).
However, the O.E. and Celtic names were left largely untouched, although
some were spelled differently to preserve the phonetic form (Bree -->
Brii).
The names of Rohan were left alone. This is because there is no language
that has the same relation to Finnish as A-S has to English: Hungarian
is too distant and Estonian too close, and both are contemporary. In
any case, I don't think Bela, King of the Pusta would have been
appropriate here. :-)
-- Petteri
GERNOT_KATZER
>>
>> Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
>> English?
> Embarrasingly enough, no. I am curious, though. In the orgional
> (English) version of TLotR, Tolkien took great care not only in
> giving places which are familiar to the Hobbits names which are
> more or less "English," but also in suggesting some of the history
> of the world by the relationships of other place names *to* English.
> ("Bree," for example, is Celtic(ish) and the historical relation
> between the Shire and Bree is suggested by the relation between
> (Saxon)English and Celtic.) I have always found this to be one of
> the richest parts of the invented place names in the book. I would
> think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
> translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
> "English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
> this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
> of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
> other. How is it handled?
I am no linguist, and therefore my answer can be quite insufficient, but
I feel that the German translation of "The Lord of the Rings" is very
good. The translator tried to preserve JRRT's original intent to
tranlate Westron names to 'familiar' words. Since Old English and Old
German are sufficiently similar the names of the people of Rohan
were not changed. To a German reader, a word like 'Eorlingas' is not
really familiar, but after having read it a few times, you do not find
it very strange, also. It just seems old.
The names of places in the Shire were translated, which was relatively
easy because German has a lot of old-style suffixes for place names
that are not used to form new names any more, but keep preserved in
names of old locations. So it was possible to generate 'old but familiar'
names.
Sindarin and Quenya were translated in modern German, like "Hithaeglir" =
"Nebelgebirge" = "Mounteens of Fog", which is in meaning close to Misty
Mounteens.
The names of Hobbits were not translated, but transcribed in a form
familiar to German readers, like 'Took' = 'Tuk'. These transcriptions
ensure correct pronunciation according to the German conventions.
The only drawback of this translation is that there are no equivalents
of Celtic names in German. Therefore, "Bree" or "Chet" remained untranslated,
but these words are very strange and exotic to German speaking people.
--
Lars Marius Garshol
In article <2MAY1994...@axcrnb.cern.ch>, note...@axcrnb.cern.ch (NOTEBOOM,Erin./PPE) writes:
>
> But the first principle of langauge is clarity. Franglais words
> like "jetlag," "background" and "weekend," though terribly unmelodious,
> especially in French, express concepts for which there is no equivalent
> word in French. They are valuable additions.
That does not mean that you cannot invent your own word to cover that new
meaning (like the people of Iceland have done.) Also, I think the original
proposal was that we use Elvish names WHEN POSSIBLE. So, when the Shire
has no Elvish name (that I know of,) you simply have to use the Shire.
> In the same spirit of
> clarity, I don't think it's a good idea to use Quenya (Quenyi?) proper
> nouns in place of more familiar equilavalents. I can only think of
> half a dozen word where most readers of this group would even *know*
> two versions; in these cases, I think one should choose for effect, as
> the Master himself says when discussing Winchester and Camelot in the
> "Note on Translation" in TLotR.
>
I sort of agree here. It would be very nice to see all a.f.t's use Elvish
names when possible, but I don't think it can achieved (without suffering.)
--Lars M.
Lars Marius Garshol
In article <3MAY1994...@axcrna.cern.ch>, note...@axcrna.cern.ch (NOTEBOOM,Erin./PPE) writes:
>
> In the orgional
> (English) version of TLotR, Tolkien took great care not only in
> giving places which are familiar to the Hobbits names which are
> more or less "English," but also in suggesting some of the history
> of the world by the relationships of other place names *to* English.
> ("Bree," for example, is Celtic(ish) and the historical relation
> between the Shire and Bree is suggested by the relation between
> (Saxon)English and Celtic.) I have always found this to be one of
> the richest parts of the invented place names in the book. I would
> think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
> translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
> "English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
> this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
> of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
> other. How is it handled?
>
Of non-english versions of LoTR I have only read the Norwegian, which was
done by Torstein Bugge Høverstad. I have read many books in both Norwegian
and English, and I have to say that this may be the best translation I have
ever seen.
In fact, there was an earlier translation by another translator who called
the book 'Krigen om ringen' (The War of the Ring) and the first volume
'De svarte rytterne' (The Black Riders.) Apparently, the new translation
was done because the old one was not good enough. (I'm guessing here, not
having read it. If anyone's interested I could dig up a copy and look into
it.)
Some background info that may (or may not) be necessary/interesting:
Today Norway has two official languages, Nynorsk and Bokmaal, which strongly
resemble each other. Tolkien, however, would probably have said that they
still 'taste/feel' quite different, and I would have to agree. Nynorsk is a
constructed language, made to resemble as many of the Norwegian dialects as
possible. Bokmaal is a Norwegianization of Danish, which for a some (3-4)
centuries was the language of state (church, royalty, academics etc.) Nynorsk
is therefore the original language (sort of equivalent of Saxon/Old English)
whereas Bokmaal is a new language introduced by 'foreign rulers' (sort of
like the French influence on Old English.)
The translator has tried to make new names that sound old, ie. Nynorsk-like,
and has mostly succeeded. This was one of the things I liked very much when
first reading the book (in Norwegian.) The names fitted the general feel of
the story. Also, in the more 'heroic/high romance'-parts the translator used
old-fashioned language somewhat similar to the tone of the old Norse sagas,
with great success.
Things like Bree being 'Celticish' are of course impossible to render in
Norwegian, there being no equivalent to the Celts here (not even the Lapps.)
It is apparent that the translator spent a lot of effort on rendering the
names as accurately as possible. Some examples:
'Michel Delving' became 'Miklabol' which means 'Great Delving,' and so is
correct in most ways.
'Weathertop' became 'Blåstertopp' where Blåster- signifies rough winds, so
it is fairly accurate.
The only fault I can remember is that on the map 'Helm's Deep' has been
translated to 'Hjelmsdypet,' where Hjelm means the sort of thing you protect
your head with. This is probably an error on part of the person who redid
the text to the maps, and not the translator.
My conclusion would have to be that the translation of names is handled very
well.
--Lars M.
_______________________________________________________________________________
-- Lars M. Garshol, Institute of Informatics, Oslo University
"Life is a sexually transmitted disease." -- A. Brink
Loren Williams
RotK occurred to me (I quote roughly):
"Kingsfoil? A weed called (something or other, I can't remember) in the
Elvish tongue, or, for those who know something of the Valinorean . . . "
"I do so," said Aragorn. "And I care not if you call it *asea aranion* or
kingsfoil, so long as you have some in the house!"
I suspect from this that JRRT was quite aware of the effect that linguists
have on the ordinary person. There's a similar caricature in *The Notion
Club Papers* (which is, I think, in *Sauron Defeated* in HoME) of a
Professor Rashbold ("Tolkien" translated from German to English), an
elderly and rather pedantic linguist.
This doesn't take anything away from the discussion. It's just well to
remember that there are a lot of people for whom discussions of apocope and
vowel harmony are meaningless.
/ljw
James Kuyper Jr
Marius Garshol) writes:
..
> meaning (like the people of Iceland have done.) Also, I think the
original
> proposal was that we use Elvish names WHEN POSSIBLE. So, when the
Shire
> has no Elvish name (that I know of,) you simply have to use the
Shire.
`Suza' is the true name for The Shire. I don't remember what language
it is in, probably Westron.
Robert Hill
> In article <1994Apr29.1...@leeds.ac.uk> ec...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Robert Hill) writes:
> >In article <dcrowley....@unix1.tcd.ie>, dcro...@unix1.tcd.ie (Seoirse Crowley) writes:
> >
> >> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
> >
> >_Insisting_ on it might be so classed; _aspiring_ to it, no.
>
> And even if it were, what the heck is wrong with elitism? Has the
> dumbing of America (and, following in its footsteps, of the world)
> proceeded so far that striving to be the best possible is now a bad
> thing? It is the elite (including JRRT) who are responsible for all the
> world's great art, scientific advances, and generally every useful
> invention starting with fire and the wheel.
... while the rest of us read Usenet News.
Yuval Kfir
>
>But, before we get too serious here, let me also point out the type of
>elitism we're discussing: Forcing other people to live up to your
>conception of "elite" or, to use the original poster's word, "Purity."
>I've got no problem with people on this group who want to aspire to a pure
>use of Elvish and other Tolkien languages, but I do object to those
>people's attempts to force the rest of us to follow the same standard.
I did not mean to attempt to force anyone to follow any standard when I
started this thread. As Robert Hill <ec...@sun.leeds.ac.uk> said on 29
Apr, *aspiring* to this kind of thing (i.e. proper use of Elvish) is not
elitism.
I am surprised that this thread turned into a flame-war. I did not mean it
in that spirit (BTW, I *did* mean for the "Keep AD&D out of Tolkien!"
thread to become a massive flame attack, and happily there were not many
misunderstandings of my intention there }:->).
Hmmm... since it seems that Robert was the among the only ones who saw
through my original intentions, please allow me to quote and explain my
original post. I am aware that I have no "authority" whatsoever on where
this thread goes, and what has been set in motion shall go on, but I would
just like an opportunity to explain myself.
First of all, note:
>... This should be taken with a grain of salt, but I am also semi-serious.
How about this to indicate a non-forceful post?
>Recall how the beginning of the abandonment of Quenya names for the Kings
>of Numenor also marked the beginning of the Downfall of Numenor. Let us
>not make the same mistake, but keep alive the languages of the Firstborn.
Read: "keep alive the languages of Tolkien". I hate to see Tolkien's own
languages, which he valued so much, go unused or misused in a newsgroup
devoted to his works. I do not mean they should be used solely, but I
think that as devotees (?word) of Tolkien, who try to be "in touch" with
Arda, use of his languages is appropriate.
>... There used to be a slogan in the early days of
>the state: "Hebrew Ýmeaning member of the Hebrew people¨, speak Hebrew!"
>Likewise I say: "Elf-friend, speak Elvish!"
Okay, this was a mistake: I apologize for the imperative tone.
>... In total seriousness, I
>think it would be very nice to see more Elvish in these newsgroups, as much
>as possible. ...
Another case of bad phrasing: I meant "as far as possible". That is, not
"put in as much Elvish as you can", but "when you can use Elvish and feel
comfortable with it, do so."
Heck, does this explain anything? I hope I've made myself clearer.
Namarie!
--
Yuval Kfir | E-mail to: kf...@Indigo.co.il
Ýdoes not represent:¨ | Voice: 972-838-1846 +----------------------+
Indigo Ltd., Israel | Fax: 972-840-8091 | WHAT, ME DISCLAIMER? |
+----------------------+
"My opinions may change but not the fact that I am right."
Aaron Clausen
>Tolkien than many of the other readers of this group) would have to
>think hard to come up with the Elvish words that I would recognize.
>Without a reference handy, for example, I have no idea what "Hithaeglir"
>is. Perhaps we should be bi-lingual when possible, but I don't think
>using Elvish words will increase the clarity of discussion much. A
>certain amount of "english-centrism" is (though regretable) unavoidable
>on what is essentially an English language news group.
And a newsgroup that deals what can only be considered as an English
classic. I know it's not nice to say, but I imagine that Tolkien's
writings work best on languages closely related to English (such as
Icelandic).
--
Aaron Clausen Port Alberni, BC Canada
aar...@taocow.hakatac.almanac.bc.ca "BARNEY FOR PRESIDENT"
Szymon Sokol
: In article <2pqf2p$e...@balu.kfunigraz.ac.at>, kat...@edvz.kfunigraz.ac.at
: [post that GK is replying to sniped for space]
: >
: >Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
: >English?
: Embarrasingly enough, no. I am curious, though. In the orgional
: (English) version of TLotR, Tolkien took great care not only in
: giving places which are familiar to the Hobbits names which are
: more or less "English," but also in suggesting some of the history
: of the world by the relationships of other place names *to* English.
: ("Bree," for example, is Celtic(ish) and the historical relation
: between the Shire and Bree is suggested by the relation between
: (Saxon)English and Celtic.) I have always found this to be one of
: the richest parts of the invented place names in the book. I would
: think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
: translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
: "English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
: this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
: of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
: other. How is it handled?
Well, in the Polish translation by Maria Skibniewska (she translated
Hobbit, LotR, and Silm.; UT should be published this year) a good compromise
has been found. Some names (Rivendell, Shire) have been simply *left
untranslated*. Some others like Misty Mountains, Mirkwood or Great River
were translated. There are translator's notes to the appendix in which Tolkien
explains his "translator's choices". I have really admired the way the poems
in LotR were translated (some by M.Skibniewska, most by Wlodzimierz Lewik) -
especially all the Hobbit songs, Gimli's song about Durin and "Lament of
Rohirrim". In this last case, the translator did a better job than JRRT
himself - the original has several lines ending in present participles, so
that those "-ing"'s rhyme. Such "grammatical rhymes" are considered bad poetry
in Polish and Lewik managed to avoid them completely, while keeping the exact
meaning and general feeling of the song (which is my favourite piece of poetry
in LotR).
--
Szymon Sokol -- Network Manager
U U M M M M University of Mining and Metallurgy, Computer Center
U U MM MM MM MM ave. Mickiewicza 30, 30-059 Krakow, POLAND
U U M M M M M M M M TEL. +48 12 338100 EXT. 2885 FAX +48 12 338907
UUUUU M M M M M M finger szy...@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl for PGP key
WWW page: http://www.uci.agh.edu.pl/~szymon
James Kuyper Jr
na...@ccs.neu.edu (lagunova natalya) writes:
..
> The first (and the best) translation was started by Muraviev and
> Kistyakovskii in the early 80's. They published only FotR in abridged
version
> and as a children book.
> They also put in the afterword some explanations for children:
> like 'Sauron stands for Hitler', and Mordor for Fascist Germany,
> and the whole business for WW2. But all this hadn't helped them,
..
Tolkien explicitly rejected the notion of such analogies.
..
> In short: Russian vs. English is like ieroglyphs (sp?) vs. alphabet
^^^^^^^^^^
hieroglyphics
..
[very interesting article on Russian translation of Tolkien deleted]
> 'Brandybuck' sounds wrong in Russian. It reminds both of 'brandy' -
> stylish cognac from the West (our West, not M-E :), and bucks ($$)
..
The association with brandy is also found in English, and was
intentional. While 'bucks' is very definitely an American word, it does
not come to my mind in this context. That may be even more true for the
British.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <2qar8j...@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl>
szy...@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl (Szymon Sokol) writes:
..
> Well, in the Polish translation by Maria Skibniewska (she translated
> Hobbit, LotR, and Silm.; UT should be published this year) a good
compromise
> has been found. Some names (Rivendell, Shire) have been simply *left
> untranslated*. Some others like Misty Mountains, Mirkwood or Great
River
That was the wrong compromise! Nothing is supposed to sound more
familiar, than the the name of the Shire, and the places and people
within it. Rivendell is also supposed to sound fairly familiar, so that
it can be contrasted with the far more foreign sounding Imladris.
I'm curious; is there any language, perhaps Finnish, where some of the
Elvish names needed to be changed, to make them LESS familiar?
Riku Saikkonen
> it is fairly accurate.
More accurate than Weathertop - Amon Sul means 'hill of wind'...
The Finnish translators did the same thing - it's translated 'Viimap{{'.
({ = a diaeresis) 'viima' - one word for a strong wind. 'p{{' - 'head',
a word often used in old Finnish in place of 'hill'. Has the same
relation to hill as the English top.
I haven't seen the Guide to Names (or whatever the translators' guide
was named) but I'd think this was mentioned there...
> The only fault I can remember is that on the map 'Helm's Deep' has been
> translated to 'Hjelmsdypet,' where Hjelm means the sort of thing you protect
> your head with. This is probably an error on part of the person who redid
> the text to the maps, and not the translator.
The Finnish translation doesn't try to translate Helm. 'Helmin syv{nne'
it is, which just means Helm's Deep (Helm doesn't mean anything in
Finnish). Perhaps this wasn't included in the translators' guide?
-=- Rjs -=- riku.sa...@compart.fi
* OLX 2.1 TD * attacks. Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold.
Riku Saikkonen
>Elvish tongue, or, for those who know something of the Valinorean . . . "
Why, athelas of course! That's the most common name used in LotR for it.
-=- Rjs -=- riku.sa...@compart.fi
* OLX 2.1 TD * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Loren Williams
(Riku Saikkonen) wrote:
> > 'Weathertop' became 'Blostertopp' where Bloster- signifies rough winds, so
> > it is fairly accurate.
>
> More accurate than Weathertop - Amon Sul means 'hill of wind'...
> The Finnish translators did the same thing - it's translated 'Viimap{{'.
> ({ = a diaeresis) 'viima' - one word for a strong wind. 'p{{' - 'head',
> a word often used in old Finnish in place of 'hill'. Has the same
> relation to hill as the English top.
Actually, "Weathertop" isn't bad. The word "weather" implies wind, believe
it or not, and was widely used as such in previous centuries. We still
have wind-related uses of the word - the "weather" side of the ship, for
example. Not to mention "Wuthering Heights," where the wind always blew.
/ljw
Loren Williams
(Riku Saikkonen) wrote:
> >"Kingsfoil? A weed called (something or other, I can't remember) in the
> >Elvish tongue, or, for those who know something of the Valinorean . . . "
>
> Why, athelas of course! That's the most common name used in LotR for it.
Boy, was I having a bad day. Ah, well. "Life to the dying/In the King's
hand lying . . "
/ljw
Kevin Thompson
>we already got very interesting posts about Norwegian and Finnish
>translations of LotR, and I want to add Russian here.
<...>
> The first (and the best) translation was started by Muraviev and
>Kistyakovskii in the early 80's. They published only FotR in abridged version
>and as a children book.
> They also put in the afterword some explanations for children: like
>'Sauron stands for Hitler', and Mordor for Fascist Germany, and the whole
>business for WW2. But all this hadn't helped them, and further translation
>was halted due to censure problems.
^^^^^^^
I know trying to read rationality into totalitarian regimes isn't a good way
to spend one's time, but do you know (or can you guess if you lived in the
Soviet Union) why it was censored? I was trying to figure out what was
"subversive" about LoTR -- it doesn't seem to have much to say about the
standard communist/capitalist issues the Soviets might have worried about,
but maybe I'm not thinking it through that clearly ... the fact that there's
a God (Eru) in Middle-Earth?
Interested, Kevin
--
ktho...@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Artificial Intelligence Research Laboratory
(415) 604-4767 (voicemail) NASA-Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
lagunova natalya
>
>In article <3MAY1994...@axcrna.cern.ch>, note...@axcrna.cern.ch (NOTEBOOM,Erin./PPE) writes:
>> think that translation of this would be quite daunting, if the
>> translator hoped to preserve both the "familair" quality of the
>> "English" translations of Westron (a valuable stylistic tool which
>> this thread has largely overlooked, by the way) and the relationships
>> of the "English" and slightly more archaic or exotic words to each
>> other. How is it handled?
>>
>
> Of non-english versions of LoTR I have only read the Norwegian,
>
we already got very interesting posts about Norwegian and Finnish
translations of LotR, and I want to add Russian here.
Here goes quite a long post about Russian translation of LotR.
It deals mostly with languages and words (just wonna warn!).
The first (and the best) translation was started by Muraviev and
Kistyakovskii in the early 80's. They published only FotR in abridged version
and as a children book.
They also put in the afterword some explanations for children:
like 'Sauron stands for Hitler', and Mordor for Fascist Germany,
and the whole business for WW2. But all this hadn't helped them,
and further translation was halted due to censure problems.
They were able to resume their work only in late 80's, and IMO
some of the initial inspiration was gone, as well as one of the
translators, Kistyakovskii, who did marvelous job on the verses in FotR.
(It's what I've heard, if some Russians have more info, please correct me).
Full version of FotR was published in 1989, TT in 1990, and RotK in 1992.
IMO they did the best job with that first FotR for children, even
if some things (mostly long descriptions of journeys and places) were
cut down, and they left out Luthian story. But they made it even with
their wonderful job on names and verses and the whole language, which
gave me creeps many times and carried me straight away into another world...
They made some blunders too, I'll talk about that.
But before I continue, some notes on English vs. Russian:
English words are like blocks in a construction: you cannot feel much
about one block, it's the combination of them which gives you all the joy.
It's why English is easy to learn.
The English verb system is so far the most confusing thing for foreigner,
with its uncanny lot of tenses. But in fact it's a simplest solution possible
of how to cover the widest range of meanings using only one (or 2 or 3,
as in 'see saw seen') word and a standart set of rules!
(Quiz for English speakers: how many verb forms are in English? 20? 30?)
In Russian you have to use different words to achieve the same set
of meanings. (Quiz for Russians: try to translate each English tense
of the verb 'to run'. You'd be suprised how many words you'd need.)
And the same with other grammar: we have rules too, of course,
but the language just spills out of them. But this mess has its advantages:
it's incredible how much can be put in one word sometimes.
In short: Russian vs. English is like ieroglyphs (sp?) vs. alphabet letters.
Far too strong an analogy, of course, but it gives the idea.
(It's funny that it's opposite for spelling: in Russian you have only to
learn the alphabet and you're all set, and in English you have to learn
each word like an ieroglyph.)
Ok, so in Russian we can load a single word with many meanings, and it opens
great possibilities for translators. And the translators of LotR used them,
used them ardently and with lots of fantasy and joy.
Sometimes they were carried too far, and translated (replaced)
smth they should've left alone: Glorfindel, Rohan and Took.
Elvish names and ancient names with forgotten meanings should be held sacred!!
But when I looked into English LotR for the first time, I was a bit
dissappointed that 'Vekovechnyi' Les is simply 'Old' Forest.
Just plain neutral 'Old', and 'Vekovechnyi' means at the same time
ancient, eternal, many ages old and has some fairy air about it...
And the Road Frodo looked at from the Weathertop (when he thought about
empty world around): it's just 'road' like anywhere. In Russian it's
'Trakt', which reminds about some endless dreary road thru some waste land
without boundaries, smth which could be only in Russia (and leads probably
to Siberia :).
Middle-Earth, Weathertop, Misty Mts got quite the same flavor in Russian.
Mirkwood -> 'Likholesie' is superb, 'Likho' is the archaik folk&fairy tale
word for 'evil', or 'ill fate', and 'Likholesie' means smth like sinister dark
forest full of witches and lurking monsters.
The most part of the name translation job falls onto 1st Book, while
we are still around Shire in Westron area. (Further on Elvish names took over.)
And the most part of that job I appreciated.
The word family:
Underhill Hill Bag-End Bagshot Row Baggins Sackville-Baggins
was preserved in Russian, only (again..) instead of plain 'bag'
it was founded on 'Torba', somewhat archaik/rustic/folktale word for 'bag'.
'Sackville' turned to 'La-Koshel', where 'la' is french 'la' before
noblemen names, and 'Koshel': rustic/folktale word for sack.
Sounds great together :).
'Hill' -> 'Krucha', thus 'Bag-end' -> 'Torba-na-Kruche', sounds great too,
even despite that dashes in place names are very rare in Russia.
Other word family (my favorite in Russian):
Brandy_buck Buck_land Brandyhall (wasn't preserved, it is just 'hall')
It became Brendi_za_ik _Za_Brendia.
Note how land prefix goes into name suffix: just like in original.
And result...
'Brandybuck' sounds wrong in Russian. It reminds both of 'brandy' -
stylish cognac from the West (our West, not M-E :), and bucks ($$) are
stylish money from the West (this word is now firmly embedded into
spoken Russian). Quite unappropriate association :).
And 'Zaik' reminds of a hare: also jumping animal,
and 'Zabrendia' is very meaningfull word: it suggests some faraway land where
you could get only by much wandering + it sounds rustic and folktalish:
some strange and unknown country in the eyes of village folk...
In short, everything in Shire was translated, except Hobbiton (? or not?)
And all speeches of Tom Bombadil were translated into verses, which
added a lot of fun to that chapter.
Oh, I forgot Gollum and his unforgettable manner of speaking!
Should be much fun to any translator. Russian one did a good job on it.
And there are many things I still like to write about, but my God
it's already so huge a post! I'd better stop.
____________________
____________________ / o \
| na...@ccs.neu.edu | With respect, ^ -~|~- |
| Northeastern univ. | { | } |
| Boston, USA | Natalya Lagunova. @_/ | \_@ |
|____________________|______________________________________________________/
"The unexpected is what makes life possible." U. LeGuin, Left Hand of Darkness
Ron Mayer
<2pqf2p$e...@balu.kfunigraz.ac.at> kat...@edvz.kfunigraz.ac.at (GERNOT_KATZER):
>
>Have you ever spent a thought on people who did NOT read Tolkien in
>English? Every Tolkien reader should know the name "Imladris", because
>it appears in "The Lord of the Rings"; But do you know what "Bruchtal",
>"Auenland" (Suza) or "Nebelgebirge" (Hithaeglir) is? Until I started
>this newsgroup, I have not ever heard of the English names "Rivendell",
>"Shire" or "Misty Mountains".
Hmm, this sounds like the beginning of an interesting thread.
When authors translated LoTR; did they follow the guidelines implied
in the section On Translation of appendix F? For example, where
Tolkien "Englished" words (as in "The name of the Shire (Su^za) and
all other places of the Hobbits have thus been Englished."), did other
translators practice Germaning or Frenching the words:-)
That was one good example; but I'd be intreageued if someone
could come up with a more complete table like:
Westron Quenya English German??? French
Suza ? Shire Auenland ?
It would intreague me even more to see how names like Samwise
translated, and I'd wonder if anyone would really prefer if
we used the Westron Banazir instead.
>I think, usage of Elvish or other Tolkienesque names is, when
>possible, clear to everyone.
I don't know. Sure every reader knows Imladris; but how many
know Karningul (which, if my memory serves is the Westron term
for the same place)?
However in general I agree with you. Most readers here are perfectly
comfortable with enough of Tolkien's terms that they'd prefer them,
and wouldn't mind looking them up in the index if presented with
an unfamiliar one.
>Note that I do not want everyone to write the article in Quenya (or
>whatever, Tolkien invented a lot of fine languages), but to use
>"original" names for persons and places wherever possible.
Hey, that sounds like a great idea. I'm certainly not fluent in
Quenya; but would enjoy trying to decypher whatever does get posted.
>> Aspiring to this kind of thing can only be classed as elitism.
>
>No, it's just the opposite of "english-centrism".
Good point. I must agree.
Ron Mayer
ma...@orthanc.acuson.com
Fredrik Ekman
When authors translated LoTR; did they follow the guidelines implied
in the section On Translation of appendix F? For example, where
Tolkien "Englished" words (as in "The name of the Shire (Su^za) and
all other places of the Hobbits have thus been Englished."), did other
translators practice Germaning or Frenching the words:-)
The Swedish translator Ake Ohlmarks did such a poor job that Tolkien
himself (who could read Swedish) stated that unless another translator
was used for the next book he published in Sweden, he simply wouldn't
allow for it to be printed! Ohlmarks, however, often claimed that his
translation was nothing short of brilliant. A masterpiece, no less.
Needless to say, Ohlmarks didn't care much for Tolkien's guidelines,
although I do not know enough about the subject to go into detail.
Some names, like Butterbur, were even inconsistently translated.
It would intreague me even more to see how names like Samwise
translated, and I'd wonder if anyone would really prefer if
we used the Westron Banazir instead.
Samwise is, as you know, not generally used in the book. Sam is
nowhere translated by Ohlmarks. It is not a Swedish name, but it is
not strange enough to cause anyone to react. It is more interesting
to see that Merry isn't translated either! In the one place where
Samwise is translated in the Swedish edition, it is translated to
"Samuel". AAAAAARRGH!!!
/F
Roman M. Parparov
is truly wonderful and sometimes can compare to the English text.
Roma.
Yuval Kfir
about the Hebrew translations. I apologize in advance -- this is going
to be long. However, IMHO it is also interesting to see how Tolkien can
be murdered and ruined effectively. :-(
This is also something of a brag -- I was slightly involved in the
Hebrew translation of _The_Silmarillion_, which is, thank Eru, much
better than the one of LotR.
I wonder if there is anyone out there who has read the LotR in Hebrew
and in English, and who is prepared to defend the Hebrew translation. I
doubt it. To say it sucks is a compliment. Though from what I've read
about the Russian translation in this thread (censored, children's-tale,
annotated as an allegory) it isn't the worst around...
I got the Hebrew version for my Bar-Mitzvah, and even from reading it
alone (without having read the original) I could notice some faults, but
I didn't know how bad it was until I got the original, three years
later.
I don't even know where to start counting its faults, but I'll try.
- NO APPENDICES. It seems the Hebrew translator was working with an
unauthorized edition, which did not contain the appendices. Either
this, or she found them too difficult to translate. In any case, I
remember buying my English copy of RotK, and wondering why it was the
thickest of the three while in the Hebrew translation it is by far the
thinnest volume. Imagine my surprise! (And delight, and rage at the
Hebrew translator).
- MAPS RUINED. First, the maps were photocopied (so it seems) on a very
poor-quality copier. Then, the English names were wiped out with
white-out, obliterating a few map features along too, but what the
heck. Then, the Hebrew names were written, obliterating some more map
features, and often not in the precise position, too.
On top of this, not every volume had the complete set of maps. FotR
had the complete set, TT had only one of the four, and not the
relevant one either (the north-eastern half, what do you know...), and
RotK also had only the two northern ones (or was it the western?). At
least the large map of Gondor and Mordor in RotK was kept (but
somewhat ruined, too).
- NAMES MISTRANSCRIBED. Of course, Celeborn and Celebrimbor became
Seleborn and Selebrimbor... which provides more evidence that the
translator was not working with the appendices.
In Hebrew, vowel-signs are optional. y cn wrt wtht vwls t ll, nd mst
spkrs f Hbrw wld ndrstnd nywy. However, when writing foreign,
strange-sounding names such as Tolkien's, vowel-signs are necessary,
or they might be mispronounced. Of course the publishers and/or the
translator didn't bother doing so, and thus I read 'Frudo', 'Lagolas'
and maybe others for several years, until I got the original.
- POEMS DIFFER FROM TEXT. The poems went to another translator, one of
the finest authors in Hebrew. However, it seems he did not have the
whole text in front of him, so he translated the poems quite freely.
So Elves become Dwarves or Gnomes (there is no good word for "Elf" in
Hebrew, but that's another topic), and all the poems take on a
childish air (well, he was a *children's* books author, mostly!), much
removed from the mythical grandeur of Tolkien.
- SLOPPY TRANSLATION. Would you imagine that "Alas!" could be
translated as "Hooray!"? Read the Hebrew translation. I distinctly
remember myself bursting into laughter amidst the tragic scene of
Boromir's death, when Aragorn arrives and says "Hooray! I came as
fast as I could but was too late to save him." or words to that
effect. In this case, I could tell what the original word was even
without reading it in English... In other places, one or two whole
passages were dropped! Such as Sam saying sadly about the Elves
"They are sailing, sailing away and leaving us."
... and these are just the major faults. I haven't even started on the
names.
Only names which were beyond doubt English words, i.e. names that could
be found in an English dictionary, were translated into Hebrew
equivalents. Shire, Mirkwood, Misty Mts. etc. were translated into
Hebrew. Hornburg, Rivendell, Isengard, Bywater etc. were not translated
at all. Samwise and Hamfast were left alone. I think even the
mountains of Moria, which are given three names each (Dwarvish, Elven,
English/Westron) were left alone so that Hebrew speakers see *three*
sets of unfamiliar names instead of two.
----------------------------------------
I was disappointed with the Hebrew translation, and much more so when I
first laid hands/eyes on the LotR in English. Now I got this together
with _The_Silmarillion_ in English, which of course made me fall in love
with Tolkien even more. And after reading Sil, I could only think one
thing: Eru forbid that the same fate that befell LotR should befall this
book in the Hebrew translation!!
Therefore, I determined that *I* would translate _The_Silmarillion_ into
Hebrew myself. I was 15 at the time, and I had no idea how difficult a
task it might be, but I also knew that I could do a better job than the
translator of LotR had done. I couldn't do it worse, that was certain!
Thereafter I spent the next 6-7 years slowly translating Silm. I still
have the notebooks, and it's a fairly good translation, IMAO (so also
say a couple of friends of mine who are also Tolkien fans). However,
progress was very slow. I began having nightmares (no really!) where I
walk into a bookstore and find a translation of Sil on the shelf, and
that they have murdered it just as they have done to LotR. I distinctly
remember these nightmares. I'd wake up depressed, and then go and work
some more on my translation, hoping to prevent such a horror from
happening. It would have been tragic.
And then... I found out that the best SF translator in Israel, Emmanuel
Lotem, was working on translation of _The_Silmarillion_. He translated
most of Larry Niven's books into Hebrew, and he translated _Dune_, which
is the best translation I've read (I'd dare say it's better than the
original, but this is for another newsgroup). I was delighted. Still,
to make absolutely sure, I called him up and told him my story (I had
gotten as far as Beren meeting Luthien in Doriath for the first time).
I offered to help him with whatever I could in the translation: I wanted
to make sure that he makes no blunders, and I consider myself enough of
a Tolkien fanatic for the job.
Well, it turned out he *could* use some help, especially in proofreading
and making sure all the names came out right (in this book, as opposed
to LotR, *all* occurrences of names were with vowel-signs). So I read
the translation over and over again, and found some typos and also some
more serious mistakes, and debated them with him (he is also a Tolkien
expert, so we had some interesting arguments about what Tolkien meant in
several places -- I am proud to say that only in one out of five was I
proven wrong...). I got a friend of mine who's a very good artist to do
the maps, the genealogies and even the front cover (Turin slaying
Glaurung from below), so the maps are of excellent quality.
And so it came to pass that the translation of _The_Silmarillion_ into
Hebrew has not only been done by the best available professional, it has
also passed scrutiny by one of the most pedantic, fanatic Tolkien fans I
know in Israel ;-). Now I am looking forward to either
_Unfinished_Tales_ or perhaps a re-translation of LotR done by Mr.
Lotem. The problem is that the market in Israel is very small, so that
financially it may not be worthwhile for any publisher to do a
re-translation of LotR, and maybe even not a translation of UT. I can
only hope!
... if you've read this far, thank you for your patience in letting me
vent (and boast) on your spare time!
Dionisius
> I know trying to read rationality into totalitarian regimes isn't a good way
> to spend one's time, but do you know (or can you guess if you lived in the
> Soviet Union) why it was censored? I was trying to figure out what was
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GAT -d+ -p+ c++++ @l+(+++) u+ e@ m+@ s-/- !n h f-(+/?)@ !g w+++ t@
r-(+++)@ !y@
"Only those lacking the phantasy escape to reality" --- Anonymous
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt
> The only fault I can remember is that on the map 'Helm's Deep' has been
> translated to 'Hjelmsdypet,' where Hjelm means the sort of thing you protect
> your head with. This is probably an error on part of the person who redid
> the text to the maps, and not the translator.
This can't be an error because 'Helm' in English means the sort of thing you
protect your head with - just a more archaic-sounding word for 'helmet'.
Matt
--
Matthew Woodford.....mjw@rowan.cov.ac.uk
Lars Marius Garshol
In article <2qlqsa$a...@rowan.coventry.ac.uk>, m...@rowan.coventry.ac.uk (Matt) writes:
> <Interesting post on Norwegian translation deleted>
Glad to hear that it was interesting, I was half afraid that it was too long.
> > The only fault I can remember is that on the map 'Helm's Deep' has been
> > translated to 'Hjelmsdypet,' where Hjelm means the sort of thing you protect
> > your head with. This is probably an error on part of the person who redid
> > the text to the maps, and not the translator.
>
> This can't be an error because 'Helm' in English means the sort of thing you
> protect your head with - just a more archaic-sounding word for 'helmet'.
>
Indeed it does, but Helm's Deep is named after Helm, who in the Norwegian
translation is called Helm Hammerhaand. So if you translate one, you'll have
to translate the other as well.
--Lars M.
Jason Kraushar
> > The only fault I can remember is that on the map 'Helm's Deep' has been
> > translated to 'Hjelmsdypet,' where Hjelm means the sort of thing you protect
> > your head with. This is probably an error on part of the person who redid
> > the text to the maps, and not the translator.
>
> This can't be an error because 'Helm' in English means the sort of thing you
> protect your head with - just a more archaic-sounding word for 'helmet'.
In the case of Helm's Deep, it is named for Helm, who was a great hero of
the Rohirrim, and is surely not intended to mean headgear. It was his given
name, and as such should not have been translated.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Jason Kraushar ava...@nephthys.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
"Statistics tell us that 1 in 3 marriages end in divorce. This sounds
awful until you realize that the other 2 end in death."
Dionisius
> It would intreague me even more to see how names like Samwise
> translated, and I'd wonder if anyone would really prefer if
> we used the Westron Banazir instead.
Samwise Gamgee was translated to German as Samweis Gamdschie, which would
be pronounced by a native German speaker much like the English original.
Pippin and, interestingly, even Merry remained the same. Sting is Stich
in German. Mount Doom is the Schicksalsberg here. And so on.
On using elven, westron etc. names: Don't do it. In theory it should work
but I feel that in practice certain names are better remembered by their
English names. And I, personally, consider Banazir a horrible name to have.
Bill Sherman
responses to her:
From zag...@a.chem.upenn.edu Fri May 13 01:17:47 1994
There was some discussion on Russian translations of LOTR on
alt.fan.tolkien, but did anyone state explicitly that in terms of
quality some of them were quite a success? (Actually,there were at
least three published translations by 1992 in Russia; the most recent
was also the worst. And, ironically, the Orc talk was the only part in
it that sounded true to the last letter.)
But first, the drawbacks. IMHO, attempts to translate personal and
geographical names (except for Mount Doom and the like) mostly failed
- because they were excessive. Call Glorfindel Vseslavur ("slava"
means "glory" in Russian) - and you will make Slavic folklore hero out
of an elf! There are no elves in Russian folklore - but it doesn't
mean that they are unknown to Russians. It might be the old
inferiority complex that we've had since Peter the Great's reign, but
Russians sometimes display a better knowledge of Western European
history, culture and folklore than of their own. I don't know if I'm
making it clear enough : I think, we just don't need "Rivendell" to be
translated...
Poetry generally had a true ring to it. In certain cases ( "Gil-Galad
was an Elven king" or "The world was young, the mountains green") it
is impossible to tell what is better - the original or the
translation.
And there is a lot of wonderful little things besides - like making
"Samwise" into "Sammium" - which sounds Latin-like for everybody and
implies high style; at the same time "um" means "mind" or "intellect"
in Russian - and may be taken in tongue-in-cheek manner.
I wish I had more examples - but I don't have the books with me now;
maybe someone else would recall more?
Olga.
STEVE SCHAPER
LW> More accurate than Weathertop - Amon Sul means 'hill of wind'...
> The Finnish translators did the same thing - it's translated
> 'Viimap{{'. ({ = a diaeresis) 'viima' - one word for a strong wind.
> 'p{{' - 'head', a word often used in old Finnish in place of 'hill'.
> Has the same relation to hill as the English top.
head.
-> Alice4Mac 2.3b4 E QWK Eval:19Jan94
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Xenophobe
Jason Kraushar <ava...@nephthys.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
>In article <2qlqsa$a...@rowan.coventry.ac.uk> m...@rowan.coventry.ac.uk (Matt) writes:
>> > The only fault I can remember is that on the map 'Helm's Deep' has been
>> > translated to 'Hjelmsdypet,' where Hjelm means the sort of thing you protect
>> > your head with. This is probably an error on part of the person who redid
>> > the text to the maps, and not the translator.
>>
>> This can't be an error because 'Helm' in English means the sort of thing you
>> protect your head with - just a more archaic-sounding word for 'helmet'.
>
> In the case of Helm's Deep, it is named for Helm, who was a great hero of
>the Rohirrim, and is surely not intended to mean headgear. It was his given
Of course not. But there's a whole class of names that are
or are derived from the names of ordinary objects, which we
use without thinking of the said objects. E.g 'Rose'.
>name, and as such should not have been translated.
I wouldn't object to 'John' being translated to 'Johan(n?)' (or whatever the
Norwegian equivalent is...).
Matt
--
Matthew Woodford m...@rowan.cov.ac.uk