Pronunciation of "Mordor"
Charles Crawley
were discussions on the newsgroups about the pronunciation of the word
"Mordor" in the film, with a few complaints about the heavily exaggerated
rolled "r"s. Well, if you download the clip of JRRT himself reading from the
Lord of the Rings, you may be interested to hear him use those exact same
heavily rolled "r"s. The website is http://www.tolkien.co.uk and you need to
click on Samples and then Audio. The clip is near the bottom of the page.
Seems as though PJ did a hell of a lot of research!
Cheers,
Charles
Tlaloc
Of course, I saw your post, *after* I industriously posted my
question on the very same subject.
Thanks
tlaloc
Lita
Yes, in Appendix E Tolkein notes that R is trilled in all positions--so
there are two trilled Rs in Mordor as well as trilled Rs in "Frodo" and
"Boromir." I don't remember if Galdalf's name is pronounciated in the
FOTR movie as "Galdalv" not "Gandalff," per Appendix E.
Robert Brady
> Yes, in Appendix E Tolkein notes that R is trilled in all positions--so
> there are two trilled Rs in Mordor as well as trilled Rs in "Frodo" and
> "Boromir." I don't remember if Galdalf's name is pronounciated in the
> FOTR movie as "Galdalv" not "Gandalff," per Appendix E.
Gandalf, though, is an English name (anglicised from Old Norse), the -f
rule applies only to Sindarin.
--
Robert
Douglas
Nice one. Personally I liked the Welsh-sounding 'Mordor'. Mordor in a
Royal Shakespeare Company / RP diction is just not scary. Maw-daw.
Oooh!
BTW, is it just me, or did Gimli start out as a gruff northerner -
Pass me axe, wilt tha', lad? - and mutate into a Scot throughout the
film?
A Tsar Is Born
Arrrrhwen
Berrren Errrkhkhkhamiyon
Elrrrhrond
Borrrromirrrr
Farrrramirrrr
Sarrrruman
Morrrrdorrrr
Gondorrrr
Saurrrhron
Thrrrrandwheeeeel
Turrrrin Turrrrumbarrrr
Telumeccchtarrrr Umbarrrrdakkkil
and his wife Berrrruthiel, Rrrruthie for short.
...sounds like we're shouting these names into a deep dark cave
...which is fair
but we don't have to worry about Frrrrrrrrrrodo, because JRRT tells us
that that wasn't his real name, and that he Anglicized (very old
Anglicized in most cases) all the Hobbit names from the original
Westron. Frodo is a Danish name (Frode actually), and we need not
trill the R more than the Danes do, or did 1500 years ago ... and who
but JRRT would know?
After all: we don't trill the R's in Strrrriderrr or Butterrrrburrr,
do we?
Well, I'm sure some do, but they're ... weirrrrrrrrrd. (Or Scottish.)
P.S. I have no problems with Keleborn and Kirdan, but insisting on the
hard C seems eccentric on the part of a professor who used to say that
Cellar-door (soft C) was the most beautiful word in the English
language.
P.P.S. My pet peeve (among many) is people who pronounce Oin and Gloin
as if these names were of one syllable, when JRRT insists upon two for
each.
Parmathule
atsar...@hotmail.com
Charles Crawley
try... It comes out as a mangled cross between an L and a W, I think...
Cheers,
Charles
"Douglas" <dph...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:938fdfae.02021...@posting.google.com...
Bryan J. Maloney
> P.S. I have no problems with Keleborn and Kirdan, but insisting on the
> hard C seems eccentric on the part of a professor who used to say that
> Cellar-door (soft C) was the most beautiful word in the English
> language.
He spelled all such words using "k" for a time but ultimately decided
that he wanted a more "Latinate" look--which meant he would use "c".
--
"A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right."
hoodedman
Welsh...
Janet
Jette Goldie
"Douglas" <dph...@my-deja.com> wrote in
> Nice one. Personally I liked the Welsh-sounding 'Mordor'. Mordor in a
> Royal Shakespeare Company / RP diction is just not scary. Maw-daw.
Sounded more Scots to me (a Scot). Not one of those
southern English or American namby pamby "R" s that
sound like "W". (Klingons always make me giggle -
"wawwiahs"??)
> Oooh!
> BTW, is it just me, or did Gimli start out as a gruff northerner -
> Pass me axe, wilt tha', lad? - and mutate into a Scot throughout the
> film?
Now he sounded Welsh to me all the way through - and
since I have a sizeable number of Welsh aunts, uncles
and cousins, I've heard a lot of Welsh accents.
--
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
Malcolm Smith
F: I cannot read the fiery letters.
G: There are few who can. It is in the tongue of Morrrrdorrrr, which --
F: The tongue of where?
G: Of Morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
F: Why are you pronouncing it like that?
G: Because I am Ian McKellen and I will do what I like...
RogerioL
--
[]´z
"Jette Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GqV98.4416$O_1.30...@news-text.cableinet.net...
Jaspreet
mo:do:, where o: is the sound of o in "more", and when in N. America,
speak thusly:
moR'doR, where R is your attempt at the rolled r.
ab
>Sounded more Scots to me (a Scot). Not one of those
>southern English or American namby pamby "R" s that
>sound like "W". (Klingons always make me giggle -
>"wawwiahs"??)
I've always thought that the American/Klingon pronunciation of
"Warrior" was "Woy-yah" myself (if you need proof, watch an old
episode of "Battlestar Galactica" where the word is used ad nauseam),
one of those slightly odd anomalies like "Jaguar" = "Jag-wah" and
"Buoy" = "Boo-eee"
(ab, who wishes he could roll his 'R's)
Jette Goldie
"ab" <a...@nospamplease.wessex.clara.net> wrote in message
news:3c683681...@news.clara.net...
Oh tis that "boo-eee" that cracks me up every time -
especially when uttered by Patrick Stewart who
ought to know better!! <g>
Erik Eriksson
news:3C681211...@ntlworld.com...
> 'C' always having a hard sound such as in Celeborn...same rule applies in
> Welsh...
> Janet
This leads me to a very off-topic question: The British football team
"Celtic", shouldn't that be pronounced "Keltik"? And how do the Brits really
pronounce it? The reason I'm asking is that here in Sweden I've heard it
pronounced with an S-sound on several occations, while my own sense of (the
English) language tells me it should be a K-sound.
Bob
<erik.e...@q2d.seNOSPAM> wrote:
It is pronounced with an "S" sound but I know nothing about football so I
can not shed any more light on it.
bob
RogerioL
[]´z
"Bob" <ro...@ratnest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robin-11020...@ratnest.demon.co.uk...
RogerioL
[]´z
"Bob" <ro...@ratnest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robin-11020...@ratnest.demon.co.uk...
Bob
<hunc...@bol.com.br> wrote:
> Celts are the Kelts in German...
The Celts are "Kelts" here too but in football, Celtic is pronounced
"Seltic". Again I have no idea why. Anything to do with chasing balls
around a field or indeed any sport involving them leaves me cold.
Bob
Erik Eriksson
news:a49j1g$1ddmm5$1...@ID-126461.news.dfncis.de...
> Celts are the Kelts in German...
Yes, that's the same as in Swedish, but according to the Hutchinson
Dictionary the k-pronounciation applies to the group of people (celts) and
the derived adjective (celtic) in English as well. Is it simply a case of
mispronounciation in the case of the football team? Or is the name "Celtic"
actually not derived from the people?
Bryan J. Maloney
Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Sounded more Scots to me (a Scot). Not one of those
> southern English or American namby pamby "R" s that
> sound like "W". (Klingons always make me giggle -
Believe me, the two consonants are quite easily distinguishable to
anyone with a sufficiently sophisticated ear.
Bryan J. Maloney
a...@nospamplease.wessex.clara.net (ab) wrote:
> one of those slightly odd anomalies like "Jaguar" = "Jag-wah" and
Actually, what is silly and absurd is that daft "jag-yooooooooo-ar"
thing that some excuses for a culture have.
Bryan J. Maloney
<jjo...@spamx.anotherx.yahoo.com> wrote:
> When in Britain, NZ or Australia, pronounce it
> mo:do:,
Sauron? Yo! Bro! Get yo mojo when you get to modo!
where o: is the sound of o in "more", and when in N. America,
> speak thusly:
> moR'doR, where R is your attempt at the rolled r.
It's really not that hard to pronounce /r/. Just sing along with me:
"Di vieni alla finestra, o mio tesoro..."
James Whyley
>
> "ab" <a...@nospamplease.wessex.clara.net> wrote in message
> news:3c683681...@news.clara.net...
> > "Jette Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Sounded more Scots to me (a Scot). Not one of those
> > >southern English or American namby pamby "R" s that
> > >sound like "W". (Klingons always make me giggle -
> > >"wawwiahs"??)
> >
> > I've always thought that the American/Klingon pronunciation of
> > "Warrior" was "Woy-yah" myself (if you need proof, watch an old
> > episode of "Battlestar Galactica" where the word is used ad nauseam),
> > one of those slightly odd anomalies like "Jaguar" = "Jag-wah" and
> > "Buoy" = "Boo-eee"
> >
>
> Oh tis that "boo-eee" that cracks me up every time -
> especially when uttered by Patrick Stewart who
> ought to know better!! <g>
Also the strange way aluminium is pronounced on the other side of the pond
makes me smile
James Whyley
"Erik Eriksson" <erik.e...@q2d.seNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:2IW98.17808$n4.30...@newsc.telia.net...
Typically it's pronounced with an S-sound as in Seltik. Originally it was
pronounced Keltik but the harsh K has gradually been softened over time
until Seltic is the accepted norm.
Mind you, that sort of thing is to be expected from the Bhoys.
James Whyley
"Malcolm Smith" <m.h....@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:e5f6af17.02021...@posting.google.com...
Much like a comic someone sent to my inbox.
G: It must be destroyed, Frodo! It cannot remain here! But who will take it?
F: Oh for goodness sake, Gandalf! You can have the last bi of cake.
Dale Hicks
lo...@me.dance says...
>
> Also the strange way aluminium is pronounced on the other side of the pond
> makes me smile
You misspelled aluminum. HTH.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
James Whyley
"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.16d233a5...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> In article <6f_98.42563$H37.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> lo...@me.dance says...
> >
> > Also the strange way aluminium is pronounced on the other side of the
pond
> > makes me smile
>
> You misspelled aluminum. HTH.
Actually, it didn't help. It did point out that Americans spell aluminium
differently to the English though. Now I know why your pronunciation sounds
strange.
Joy
> P.P.S. My pet peeve (among many) is people who pronounce Oin and Gloin
> as if these names were of one syllable, when JRRT insists upon two for
> each.
a HA!! i've been trying to get answers about the pronunciation of Oin
and Gloin in AFT and nobody seems to agree. When Elrond in the movie
said "Gloyn"... *cringe*
did JRRT really 'insist'?
Jette Goldie
"Bryan J. Maloney" <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:bjm10-A88F90....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
Round and round the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran.
Ten times quickly, please. :-)
(I was "tongue tied" as a child and got that one drummed
into my head as "speech therapy" - even though speech
therapy hadn't been invented <g>)
(A Scot who can't say her Rs? Must be speech impaired!)
Jette Goldie
"Erik Eriksson" <erik.e...@q2d.seNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:2IW98.17808$n4.30...@newsc.telia.net...
The Scots (tis a Scottish team) call them Seltic - but then
they were created at a time when Celtic studies were not
.... uppermost.... in people's minds.
Douglas
> The only annoyance for me is that I just cannot roll my "r"s... Whatever I
> try... It comes out as a mangled cross between an L and a W, I think...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Charles
>
I can't do anything else with the little beggars - they just roll on
out. Means I keep saying 'dog' instead of 'but' in Spanish. Bummer.
Ian Blenkinsop
"Erik Eriksson" <erik.e...@q2d.seNOSPAM> wrote in message
the word with the soft c, although that doesn't stop people who come at
the word from knowledge of the football club mispronouncing every hard c
usage.
--
--
Ian Blenkinsop
Antonio Gonzalez
"Douglas" <dph...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:938fdfae.0202...@posting.google.com...
> I can't do anything else with the little beggars - they just roll on
> out. Means I keep saying 'dog' instead of 'but' in Spanish. Bummer.
The other way around, probably. I mean, it's easier, for
an english-speaker, to say "pero", instead of "perro"
(except if you are an Scot).
And, how do you pronounce
"El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo, porque Ramón Ramirez
se lo ha cortado" ? :-)
Antonio
Douglas
I AM a Scot. I can pronounce ere, but I have to make a conscious
effort. Soon as I relax, it starts rolling.
Emilie Karr
>
> "Erik Eriksson" <erik.e...@q2d.seNOSPAM> wrote in message
>
> > "Celtic", shouldn't that be pronounced "Keltik"? And how do the Brits
> really
> > pronounce it? The reason I'm asking is that here in Sweden I've heard it
> > pronounced with an S-sound on several occations, while my own sense of
> (the
> > English) language tells me it should be a K-sound.
> >
> The Scots (tis a Scottish team) call them Seltic - but then
> they were created at a time when Celtic studies were not
> .... uppermost.... in people's minds.
>
with a soft C, and their mascot is a leprachaun or somesuch so it's
meant to be the Celts...were they named for the Scottish team, I wonder?
Mixed me up for a bit when I learned the proper pronunciation...
emilie
Bryan J. Maloney
Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Bryan J. Maloney" <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
> news:bjm10-A88F90....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> > In article <tlW98.5414$Hv5.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Jaspreet"
> > <jjo...@spamx.anotherx.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > When in Britain, NZ or Australia, pronounce it
> > > mo:do:,
> >
> > Sauron? Yo! Bro! Get yo mojo when you get to modo!
> >
> >
> > where o: is the sound of o in "more", and when in N. America,
> > > speak thusly:
> > > moR'doR, where R is your attempt at the rolled r.
> >
> > It's really not that hard to pronounce /r/. Just sing along with me:
> >
> > "Di vieni alla finestra, o mio tesoro..."
> >
>
> Round and round the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran.
>
> Ten times quickly, please. :-)
Using the sound favored by the Italians, by the Spanish for "r" spelling
(as opposed to their "rr" spelling), by southern Germans, by Americans,
and by Russians, in that order, of course.
But consider the damage it did to your VOWEL intonation!
Up front and round, that's the lone Scottish vowel.
Oop froont 'n roond, 'ts th' loon scoot'sh vooool.
Bryan J. Maloney
"James Whyley" <lo...@me.dance> wrote:
We pronounce "aluminum" exactly as it is spelled. We don't have any
"aluminium" over here.
Johann Snyman
Charles Crawley wrote:
> Many apologies if this has been discussed before, but some while ago there
> were discussions on the newsgroups about the pronunciation of the word
> "Mordor" in the film, with a few complaints about the heavily exaggerated
> rolled "r"s. Well, if you download the clip of JRRT himself reading from the
> Lord of the Rings, you may be interested to hear him use those exact same
> heavily rolled "r"s. The website is http://www.tolkien.co.uk and you need to
> click on Samples and then Audio. The clip is near the bottom of the page.
> Seems as though PJ did a hell of a lot of research!
>
Well, Tolkien does come from South Africa originally if I'm not
mistaken, and in Afrikaans, we all rroll our Rs.
--
QUIPd 1.02: (112 of 431)
-> Win98 error 007: Fatal error: unforseeable condition: Your
-> system has booted without crashing. Shutting down to compensate.
Linux:
8:46am up 8 days, 4:27, 2 users, load average: 1.00, 1.00, 1.00
James Whyley
I know. I'm now fully aware of the difference in spellings.
Luke Hooft
ab <a...@nospamplease.wessex.clara.net> wrote in message
news:3c683681...@news.clara.net...
> "Jette Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Sounded more Scots to me (a Scot). Not one of those
> >southern English or American namby pamby "R" s that
> >sound like "W". (Klingons always make me giggle -
> >"wawwiahs"??)
>
> I've always thought that the American/Klingon pronunciation of
> "Warrior" was "Woy-yah" myself (if you need proof, watch an old
> episode of "Battlestar Galactica" where the word is used ad nauseam),
> one of those slightly odd anomalies like "Jaguar" = "Jag-wah" and
> "Buoy" = "Boo-eee"
>
What are you people talking about? The american R sounds like "r", not "w"
or whatever, it's just not rolled. The southern English (by that I assume
you mean plain english or BBC english) r is pronounced as "r" or not at all.
I'm Australian so that's pretty much the same as English. So for "never",
its "nevah" for "furry", it's "furry", "card" is "caahd" and "robot" is
"robot". But there is a definite "r" sound.
Americans (and klingons) may say "warrior" funny but there is an "r" there.
They say War-yer. Actually, now that I do it out loud, it's more like
woy-yer. But there definitely is an "r" at the end. They say Jag-war, not
Jag-wah. Whereas I sa Jag-yew-ah. And I can roll my Rs if I need to say
something foreign.
So stop making fun of our Rs, you ratbastards. Let's just all make fun of
how Americans have murdered (btw, I love how scots say "murder") the
language. Like when they pronounce "new" as "nu" when it should be "nyew".
And how they somehow gave "ass" the meaning of "arse".
LH
Luke Hooft
news:wL_98.42810$H37.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> Actually, it didn't help. It did point out that Americans spell aluminium
> differently to the English though. Now I know why your pronunciation
sounds
> strange.
>
>
Yeah, but still, why do they lose the second I from "aluminium" when they
call plenty of other minerals by their proper names and pronounce them
correctly? Why can they say lithium and beryllium but not aluminium? Or is 5
syllables just too many for one word?
LH
Luke Hooft
> In article <3c683681...@news.clara.net>,
> a...@nospamplease.wessex.clara.net (ab) wrote:
>
> > one of those slightly odd anomalies like "Jaguar" = "Jag-wah" and
>
> Actually, what is silly and absurd is that daft "jag-yooooooooo-ar"
> thing that some excuses for a culture have.
Well that's how I say it, and that's how that u would be said if was an
English word. But being the name of animal and I guess it's name coming from
a foreign language (where do jaguars come from, South Ameria?) I guess I
probably do say it wring. It's like Puma too, I guess. Normal instinct of an
Aussie or Brit would be to say "pyoo-ma" but since it probably comes from
some native american language, the American "poo-ma" is probably correct.
But Americans still say new as "nu" and not "nyoo" so there is still a
problem they have with the yoo sound.
LH
James Whyley
"Luke Hooft" <luk...@ihug.DONTBLOODYSPAMME.com.au> wrote in message
news:10135385...@news.iweb.net.au...
It wouldn't do if everyone was the same now would it? Besides, out friends
over the pond invented on of my favourite words. Winningest (excuse spelling
if it's wrong) meaning, presumably, most successful. It ranks right up there
with discombobulating as a truly great word.
James Whyley
> how Americans have murdered (btw, I love how scots say "murder") the
> language. Like when they pronounce "new" as "nu" when it should be "nyew".
> And how they somehow gave "ass" the meaning of "arse".
Don't forget biscuits, they got that arse backwards too :)
Luke Hooft
news:utu84a...@europa.arrow...
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Lita <fa...@butidontlikespam.org> wrote:
> > Yes, in Appendix E Tolkein notes that R is trilled in all positions--so
> > there are two trilled Rs in Mordor as well as trilled Rs in "Frodo" and
> > "Boromir." I don't remember if Galdalf's name is pronounciated in the
> > FOTR movie as "Galdalv" not "Gandalff," per Appendix E.
>
> Gandalf, though, is an English name (anglicised from Old Norse), the -f
> rule applies only to Sindarin.
>
> --
> Robert
Are there any recordings on the web of Tolkien pronouncing "Gandalf"? I've
heard a few excerpts of his recordings, but by chance he says Gandalf's name
in none of them.
LH
Luke Hooft
news:tlW98.5414$Hv5.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> When in Britain, NZ or Australia, pronounce it
> speak thusly:
> moR'doR, where R is your attempt at the rolled r.
I think the American R is just a normal, single R. I don't think it is an
attempt at a rolled R. It's the same R that Brits, Aussies and NZ'ers use in
the middle of words like Robot, Frodo, Furry. It's just that Americans
ALWAYS pronounce Rs, while Brits, Aussies and NZers only do when it's
followed by a vowel sound. Although, not all US accents *always* sound the
Rs, like if you're from Nu Yawk Neither Americans, nor Brits or Aussies or
NZers roll their Rs, except when saying foreign words.
What about those New Zealanders and their vowels though?
LH
Emilie Karr
> Americans (and klingons) may say "warrior" funny but there is an "r" there.
> They say War-yer. Actually, now that I do it out loud, it's more like
> woy-yer. But there definitely is an "r" at the end. They say Jag-war, not
> Jag-wah. Whereas I sa Jag-yew-ah. And I can roll my Rs if I need to say
> something foreign.
>
pronounce both "r"s in "warrior"...speaking aloud at work probably isn't
the wisest idea, but what I'm saying sounds something like "woor-ri-yer"
Er, not exactly, the 'yer' is closer to 'er', not so exaggerated; still,
there's 3 distinct syllables. Jag-war is pretty close, though it
doesn't rhyme with "war"; "jaguar" rhymes with "bar" and "car" and "war"
rhymes with "or" and "bore".
British or American, English is a screwy language to pronounce!
And I can't roll my Rs to save my life. My brother has made fun of me
for this for years. I am slowly mastering the Japanese "ra" (which
sounds more like "la")...
> So stop making fun of our Rs, you ratbastards. Let's just all make fun of
> how Americans have murdered (btw, I love how scots say "murder") the
> language. Like when they pronounce "new" as "nu" when it should be "nyew".
> And how they somehow gave "ass" the meaning of "arse".
>
Hey, which came first, arse or ass (in the meaning of rear end as
opposed to donkey)? Honestly curious here...
> Don't forget biscuits, they got that arse backwards too :)
"Jumpers" have to be one of my favorites. They're still articles of
clothing here, but the first time I read about a big manly cop pulling
on a jumper on a frosty winter morn the mental picture was rather
interesting...
emilie
Bryan J. Maloney
<luk...@ihug.DONTBLOODYSPAMME.com.au> wrote:
> Yeah, but still, why do they lose the second I from "aluminium" when they
> call plenty of other minerals by their proper names and pronounce them
> correctly? Why can they say lithium and beryllium but not aluminium? Or
> is 5
> syllables just too many for one word?
Sir Humphrey Davies originally called the element "alumium". Then he
called it "aluminum". Then he called it "aluminium". We "lost"
nothing. There were three variants used by the man who named the
element, and we chose the second one.
Had he stuck with his first, there'd have been no problem.
Bryan J. Maloney
<luk...@ihug.DONTBLOODYSPAMME.com.au> wrote:
> Well that's how I say it, and that's how that u would be said if was an
> English word. But being the name of animal and I guess it's name coming
> from
> a foreign language (where do jaguars come from, South Ameria?) I guess I
> probably do say it wring. It's like Puma too, I guess. Normal instinct of
> an
> Aussie or Brit would be to say "pyoo-ma" but since it probably comes from
> some native american language, the American "poo-ma" is probably correct.
If one is going to say "pyooma", then spell it "pyooma". That's what
the letter "y" is for.
I really cringed when I heard some folk from OZ utterly mangle the name
"Manuel". It's two syllables and they had just heard the poor guy
introduce himself. Do they do the smart thing and at least try to
pronounce it the way he said his own name? Nope, he's "man-yoo-el" to
them, regardless of what he called himself. It's not like they're being
asked to pronounce "Punchapat" correctly with all those luscious Thai
retroflexes and differentiation between aspirated and unaspirated
unvoiced plosives, after all.
Bryan J. Maloney
<luk...@ihug.DONTBLOODYSPAMME.com.au> wrote:
> And how they somehow gave "ass" the meaning of "arse".
Not at all. No more than the "witch" in "witch hazel" is the same as
the word "witch" as used on its own. According to the OED, "ass" was a
dialect version of "arse" that is now chiefly US. It is not a US-coined
use of the word "ass" that is the name of the equine animal.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>
>Well, Tolkien does come from South Africa originally if I'm not
>mistaken, and in Afrikaans, we all rroll our Rs.
Tolkien was born in Bloemfontein, Orange Free State, because his father had
been sent out from England to head the branch of a British bank there. He
was sent back to England when he was three. Both his parents were English.
So I don't think Afrikaans was a major linguistic influence on him.
Öjevind
Bryan J. Maloney
<ori...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:00 -0500, "Bryan J. Maloney"
> <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >We pronounce "aluminum" exactly as it is spelled.
>
> Aye-loom-EYE-noom? I never knew that...
That would be "ayloomeinoom".
Bob
Whyley" <lo...@me.dance> wrote:
> It wouldn't do if everyone was the same now would it? Besides, out friends
> over the pond invented on of my favourite words. Winningest (excuse spelling
> if it's wrong) meaning, presumably, most successful. It ranks right up there
> with discombobulating as a truly great word.
I haven't heard discombobulating for years. Is it one of Doddy's? Or is it
a real one?
Bob
Jette Goldie
"Emilie Karr" <ek...@law.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3C696E06...@law.harvard.edu...
> Luke Hooft wrote:
> > Americans (and klingons) may say "warrior" funny but there is an "r"
there.
> > They say War-yer. Actually, now that I do it out loud, it's more like
> > woy-yer. But there definitely is an "r" at the end. They say Jag-war,
not
> > Jag-wah. Whereas I sa Jag-yew-ah. And I can roll my Rs if I need to say
> > something foreign.
> >
> American born and bred, and my accent's pretty pure. I believe I
> pronounce both "r"s in "warrior"...speaking aloud at work probably isn't
> the wisest idea, but what I'm saying sounds something like "woor-ri-yer"
>
Heard Americans from all over the place - can't hear
the "r" in their speech - it's so bad that some Americans
hear "r"s in words said by Scots and Welsh that are NOT
THERE!! ("Liser" for Lisa for example)
> And I can't roll my Rs to save my life. My brother has made fun of me
> for this for years. I am slowly mastering the Japanese "ra" (which
> sounds more like "la")...
>
> > So stop making fun of our Rs, you ratbastards. Let's just all make fun
of
> > how Americans have murdered (btw, I love how scots say "murder") the
> > language. Like when they pronounce "new" as "nu" when it should be
"nyew".
> > And how they somehow gave "ass" the meaning of "arse".
> >
> Hey, which came first, arse or ass (in the meaning of rear end as
> opposed to donkey)? Honestly curious here...
>
> > Don't forget biscuits, they got that arse backwards too :)
>
> "Jumpers" have to be one of my favorites. They're still articles of
> clothing here, but the first time I read about a big manly cop pulling
> on a jumper on a frosty winter morn the mental picture was rather
> interesting...
>
"vest and pants" - that one is worth a giggle -when my
US friends talk about how hunky some actor is when
wearing a vest and pants, I imagine them in their
underwear ;-)
BaldiePete
> In article <10135390...@news.iweb.net.au>, "Luke Hooft"
> <luk...@ihug.DONTBLOODYSPAMME.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Well that's how I say it, and that's how that u would be said if was an
> > English word. But being the name of animal and I guess it's name coming
> > from
> > a foreign language (where do jaguars come from, South Ameria?) I guess I
> > probably do say it wring. It's like Puma too, I guess. Normal instinct
of
> > an
> > Aussie or Brit would be to say "pyoo-ma" but since it probably comes
from
> > some native american language, the American "poo-ma" is probably
correct.
>
> If one is going to say "pyooma", then spell it "pyooma". That's what
> the letter "y" is for.
>
The phonetic pronunciation "pyooma" is the correct way to say "puma" in
English. Take the second letter in "puma" and say it aloud. Assuming you are
more than 6 years old you will say "yoo" not "oo". Of course if you are less
than 6 you will say "uh" but that's your problem not mine :-)
BaldiePete
Celaeno
>In article <a49j1g$1ddmm5$1...@ID-126461.news.dfncis.de>, "RogerioL"
><hunc...@bol.com.br> wrote:
>
>> Celts are the Kelts in German...
>
>The Celts are "Kelts" here too but in football, Celtic is pronounced
>"Seltic". Again I have no idea why. Anything to do with chasing balls
>around a field or indeed any sport involving them leaves me cold.
Jocks just don't know better.
Cel
Celaeno
>Berrren Errrkhkhkhamiyon
He had a really bad hacking cough when he started calling himself
Erchamion?
Cel
Jason Atkinson
I presume that :-) means its a joke, otherwise I'd go on about the
difference between long and short vowels.
geoffrey kimbrough
Luke Hooft wrote:
> Yeah, but still, why do they lose the second I from "aluminium" when they
> call plenty of other minerals by their proper names and pronounce them
> correctly? Why can they say lithium and beryllium but not aluminium? Or is 5
> syllables just too many for one word?
One syllable doesn't sound like much, but over the span of two hundred
years, our scientists and engineers have collectively saved enough mental
energy to make considerable strides in the science and technology race.
Drosselmeyer
Czer
"Erik Eriksson" <erik.e...@q2d.seNOSPAM> wrote in message
> "hoodedman" <hood...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:3C681211...@ntlworld.com...
> > 'C' always having a hard sound such as in Celeborn...same rule applies
in
> > Welsh...
> > Janet
>
> This leads me to a very off-topic question: The British football team
> "Celtic", shouldn't that be pronounced "Keltik"? And how do the Brits
really
> pronounce it? The reason I'm asking is that here in Sweden I've heard it
> pronounced with an S-sound on several occations, while my own sense of
(the
> English) language tells me it should be a K-sound.
>
>
>
speaker can contradict me, please do. If there is a single C followed by an
E that is pronounced as a K please tell me. It's a big rule, maybe the only
rule in English. I have to correct myself for a half a second everytime I
see it. Its Kelts, not Selts, unless you can't read. Somebody misspelled it
long ago.
Czer
Czer
"Czer" <w...@congrats.com> wrote in message
news:6Tla8.3442$qt6.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Meaning its pronounced KELTS not SELTS. Unless its spelled
Celts......arrrghhh. Who did this...especially because the
Celtics.....pronounce Seltics are my favorite basketball team. Kelts are
Kelts. Celts are Selts.
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> one of those slightly odd anomalies like "Jaguar" = "Jag-wah" and
"Jaguar" = "Jag-wahr" to me. Never have understood why Brits say
"Jag-you-ah". Of course, the etymology is probably South American ...
- hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> "RogerioL" <hunc...@bol.com.br> wrote in message
> news:a49j1g$1ddmm5$1...@ID-126461.news.dfncis.de...
> > Celts are the Kelts in German...
>
> Dictionary the k-pronounciation applies to the group of people (celts) and
> the derived adjective (celtic) in English as well. Is it simply a case of
> mispronounciation in the case of the football team? Or is the name "Celtic"
> actually not derived from the people?
Can't speak for Britain but in the United States, the word is pronounced
"Seltic" except by pretentious gits who crowd Renaissance Faires in
bad-fitting homemade kilts and are very aggressive at pronouncing the
hard c.
-hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> woy-yer. But there definitely is an "r" at the end. They say Jag-war, not
> Jag-wah. Whereas I sa Jag-yew-ah. And I can roll my Rs if I need to say
and
> language. Like when they pronounce "new" as "nu" when it should be "nyew".
So where in these words is this 'y' you keep pronouncing?
- hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> probably do say it wring. It's like Puma too, I guess. Normal instinct of an
> Aussie or Brit would be to say "pyoo-ma" but since it probably comes from
> some native american language, the American "poo-ma" is probably correct.
Yes. There are pumas in the hills hereabouts and they get mad when you
call them pyumas. Discredits their masculinity.
> But Americans still say new as "nu" and not "nyoo" so there is still a
> problem they have with the yoo sound.
I learned "coupon" as "koo-pon" but it's commonly spoken with the "yoo"
in it. Being as the word has French origins where'd this "yoo" come
from anyway?
- hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> Don't forget biscuits, they got that arse backwards too :)
You misspelled bass ackwards.
- hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> Heard Americans from all over the place - can't hear
> the "r" in their speech - it's so bad that some Americans
> hear "r"s in words said by Scots and Welsh that are NOT
> THERE!! ("Liser" for Lisa for example)
Now that's interesting. I've heard Brits tag r's to words that end in
vowels all my life. Struck me as an unnecessary bit of decorative
consonantry. Now you're saying those are really just drawn down vowels
with no r's at all. I wonder why you do it?
- hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> The phonetic pronunciation "pyooma" is the correct way to say "puma" in
> English. Take the second letter in "puma" and say it aloud. Assuming you are
> more than 6 years old you will say "yoo" not "oo". Of course if you are less
> than 6 you will say "uh" but that's your problem not mine :-)
Balls. That the letter is called a Yu means it is always pronunced "yu"
no more than that "pretty" is pronounced "prit-wye". "Pyooma" is
correct under no cirumstances. Puma is an indigenous American word and
has no need of English affectations.
- hl
Douglas
You don't want to start wondering about why the English make those
noises, mate; you'll go insane ;-)
"I just wouldn't know a single word to say
If I blurred up all my vowels and I threw the 'r' away..."
Douglas
They have more than one?
Andrew Leech
jette...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>"vest and pants" - that one is worth a giggle -when my
>US friends talk about how hunky some actor is when
>wearing a vest and pants, I imagine them in their
>underwear ;-)
"Suspenders" - I nearly fell off my chair when I heard someone
on the TV say that Michael Douglas wore red suspenders in the
film Wall Street. In case anyone doesn't know, this side of the
pond suspenders are "braces"; here ladies use suspenders to hold
their tights up!*
Andrew
[* or did; they seem to be a bit passe these days]
--
--
--
Andrew Leech
Email: a dotte leech atte uea dotte ac dotte uk - U no Y !
Biological Sciences * All opinions personal
University of East Anglia *
Norwich * "I don't like it so you can't do it"
England * - New Labour Proverbs Ch1, V1.
Jette Goldie
"Celaeno" <cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3c698c40...@news.world-online.no...
Nah, we just find it a useful way to tell whether someone is
talking about culture/people/art or football.
Jette Goldie
"geoffrey kimbrough" <gkimb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C69E466...@earthlink.net...
Usually by working on discoveries made by scientists from
other countries.
Jette Goldie
"Andrew Leech" <lo...@sig.for.email.address> wrote in message
news:a4dmer$2h9$1...@cpca14.uea.ac.uk...
> In article <dZga8.5718$616.41...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> jette...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
> >"vest and pants" - that one is worth a giggle -when my
> >US friends talk about how hunky some actor is when
> >wearing a vest and pants, I imagine them in their
> >underwear ;-)
>
> "Suspenders" - I nearly fell off my chair when I heard someone
> on the TV say that Michael Douglas wore red suspenders in the
> film Wall Street. In case anyone doesn't know, this side of the
> pond suspenders are "braces"; here ladies use suspenders to hold
> their tights up!*
>
To hold our stockings up, dear - tights hold themselves
up. To our US friends, "tights" are what you call "pantyhose"
beepers
> Luke Hooft wrote:
> >
> > probably do say it wring. It's like Puma too, I guess. Normal instinct
of an
> > Aussie or Brit would be to say "pyoo-ma" but since it probably comes
from
> > some native american language, the American "poo-ma" is probably
correct.
>
> Yes. There are pumas in the hills hereabouts and they get mad when you
> call them pyumas. Discredits their masculinity.
>
> > But Americans still say new as "nu" and not "nyoo" so there is still a
> > problem they have with the yoo sound.
Nah. I think Americans say pyoosillanimous, not poosillanimous. They
certainly say Kyu Klux Klan, or at least the members do.And they say your
baby is cyoot, not coot. Pyootrid, not pootrid. There's no consistency, cos
they say dooty, and foosilage. I reckon they're on their own with pooma
though. Never even heard the canadjuns say that.
Jason Atkinson
<bamp...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>Nah. I think Americans say pyoosillanimous, not poosillanimous. They
>certainly say Kyu Klux Klan, or at least the members do.And they say your
>baby is cyoot, not coot. Pyootrid, not pootrid. There's no consistency, cos
>they say dooty, and foosilage. I reckon they're on their own with pooma
>though. Never even heard the canadjuns say that.
Since when were we required to pronouce a vowel the same way all the
time?
Einion Yrth
"Jette Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HOta8.6270$Nz7.44...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> "Celaeno" <cel...@shavenwookie.nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3c698c40...@news.world-online.no...
> > You will not evade me, ro...@ratnest.demon.co.uk (Bob):
> >
> > >In article <a49j1g$1ddmm5$1...@ID-126461.news.dfncis.de>, "RogerioL"
> > ><hunc...@bol.com.br> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Celts are the Kelts in German...
> > >
> > >The Celts are "Kelts" here too but in football, Celtic is pronounced
> > >"Seltic". Again I have no idea why. Anything to do with chasing balls
> > >around a field or indeed any sport involving them leaves me cold.
> >
> > Jocks just don't know better.
> >
>
> Nah, we just find it a useful way to tell whether someone is
> talking about culture/people/art or football.
>
>
Emilie Karr
>
> "Andrew Leech" <lo...@sig.for.email.address> wrote in message
> > "Suspenders" - I nearly fell off my chair when I heard someone
> > on the TV say that Michael Douglas wore red suspenders in the
> > film Wall Street. In case anyone doesn't know, this side of the
> > pond suspenders are "braces"; here ladies use suspenders to hold
> > their tights up!*
>
> To hold our stockings up, dear - tights hold themselves
> up. To our US friends, "tights" are what you call "pantyhose"
>
A discussion that's fun and educational! I hadn't heard of most of
these...how come there's so many differences in garment terminology?
emilie
who will keep "vest and pants" in mind; that one might cause unfortunate
but entertaining confusion...
Jette Goldie
"Emilie Karr" <ek...@law.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3C6A7F0A...@law.harvard.edu...
You might also keep in mind that a "fanny-pack" in
UK terminology is........VERY..... rude. <g>
(let's just say that it's in the same *general* location
as the US, but women have one, men don't)
Hippolyte Lizard
news:3c6a7186$0$13143$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> Nah. I think Americans say pyoosillanimous, not poosillanimous. They
> certainly say Kyu Klux Klan, or at least the members do.And they say your
> baby is cyoot, not coot. Pyootrid, not pootrid. There's no consistency,
cos
> they say dooty, and foosilage. I reckon they're on their own with pooma
> though. Never even heard the canadjuns say that.
You never know. I say fyooselage, and dooty, and always say Ku not Kyu,
preceded of course with a fine embellishing expletive. And there are plenty
of pronunciations that very even within my own state, such as whether or not
the 't' is silent in "often". To me it is, but not to all. Fun language we
have, what?
- hl
Hippolyte Lizard
>
> You might also keep in mind that a "fanny-pack" in
> UK terminology is........VERY..... rude. <g>
>
> (let's just say that it's in the same *general* location
> as the US, but women have one, men don't)
So when we go to Britain and the taxi driver takes us to our hotel, I'll
make sure and tell my wife to open her fanny-pack and give the man something
for his trouble, and watch his expression.
- hl
Andrew Leech
jette...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>To hold our stockings up, dear - tights hold themselves
>up. To our US friends, "tights" are what you call "pantyhose"
>
>;-)
Dohhh! I had this horrible feeling something was wrong with that post.
I'll have to petition the university for more lingerie newsgroups.
:-o
Andrew
Bryan J. Maloney
<baldiepete...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The phonetic pronunciation "pyooma" is the correct way to say "puma" in
> English. Take the second letter in "puma" and say it aloud. Assuming you
"Puma" is not pronounced as if spelled like "pyuma" except by those who
have no real talent nor status but wish to make it look like they do.
--
"A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right."
Bryan J. Maloney
"Czer" <w...@congrats.com> wrote:
> In English the combination of C-E is ALWAYS an S-E. If a single English
Wrong.
The OED gives either pronunciation. And how do you pronounce the anme
of the musical instrument "cello"?
> speaker can contradict me, please do. If there is a single C followed by
> an
> E that is pronounced as a K please tell me. It's a big rule, maybe the
According to the OED and Mirriam-Webster, "celt", "celtic",
"celtiberian", and other such words.
Bryan J. Maloney
Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Heard Americans from all over the place - can't hear
> the "r" in their speech - it's so bad that some Americans
> hear "r"s in words said by Scots and Welsh that are NOT
> THERE!! ("Liser" for Lisa for example)
Actually, I've read professional phonetic analysis that calls you a
liar. The sound IS inserted but speakers of those dialects mentally
edit it out. The fact that you are incapable of hearing it speaks more
of your own linguistic parochialism than it does of the phonetic reality
that confronts you.
Bryan J. Maloney
Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> To hold our stockings up, dear - tights hold themselves
> up. To our US friends, "tights" are what you call "pantyhose"
Nope, you got yet another thing wrong. Pantyhose are a specific item of
clothing, distinct from "tights".
Bryan J. Maloney
It really is there, and if you look at the academic phonological
literature for these dialects, you will see its geographical
distribution. It's not an intentional alteration of the *phonological*
value of the sound. It is rather a *phonetic* variant to which most of
its users are essentially deaf.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Can't speak for Britain but in the United States, the word is pronounced
> "Seltic" except by pretentious gits who crowd Renaissance Faires in
> bad-fitting homemade kilts and are very aggressive at pronouncing the
> hard c.
No, it's also pronounced that way by archaeologists and historians who
have never entered such entertainment facilities.
Bryan J. Maloney
<bamp...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> certainly say Kyu Klux Klan, or at least the members do.And they say your
Well, that's a sign of their general stupidity, of course! Those of us
smart enough not to join don't say it that way.
Bryan J. Maloney
Atkinson) wrote:
Actually, the vowel IS pronounced the same way all the time. The letter
is used to represent several different vowels.
Michael P Reed
> "RogerioL" <hunc...@bol.com.br> wrote in message
> news:a49j1g$1ddmm5$1...@ID-126461.news.dfncis.de...
> > Celts are the Kelts in German...
>
> Dictionary the k-pronounciation applies to the group of people (celts) and
> the derived adjective (celtic) in English as well. Is it simply a case of
> mispronounciation in the case of the football team? Or is the name "Celtic"
> actually not derived from the people?
My Webster's (American) dictionary gives both pronunciations as correct being
derived from both Latin (Celtae) and Greek (Keltoi). Both with the hard "C" or
"K" sound. OTOH, English, with a few rare exceptions the "C" softens when
followed by an "E," and, properly speaking, if one is speaking of the *English*
pronunciation of the word, the "C" should be soft, although it has hard roots
in both Latin and Greek, and their progenitor, Indo-European. So in this case,
the historians, archeologists, etc, who prounounce the word with a hard "C" are
technically incorrect, *unless* one considers that their usage constitutes a
particular jargon, in which case, the hard "C" is linguistically correct. IOW,
both are proper pronunciations in English usage.
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Emilie Karr
>
> In article <HOta8.6272$Nz7.44...@news-text.cableinet.net>, "Jette
> Goldie" <jette...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > To hold our stockings up, dear - tights hold themselves
> > up. To our US friends, "tights" are what you call "pantyhose"
>
> Nope, you got yet another thing wrong. Pantyhose are a specific item of
> clothing, distinct from "tights".
This might not be the ideal reference (there is no free OED online,
yes?) but according to Webster's online dictionary:
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=tights
the Brits call "tights" what Americans call pantyhose. Unfortunately
there's no etymology given.
emilie
BaldiePete
"Bryan J. Maloney" <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:bjm10-087FF9....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
No real talent or status ? Look in the mirror.
I refer you to to the following web site
http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/P0657400.html
which is an entry in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language. It actually gives two possible pronunciations - first with a "yoo"
sound then with an "oo" sound. Listen to the sound sample - it clearly says
"pyooma".
My Concise Oxford English dictionary gives the "yoo" sound only.
BaldiePete
Jason Atkinson
<baldiepete...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>My Concise Oxford English dictionary gives the "yoo" sound only.
The thought of a bunch of Oxford types trying to tell Americans how to
pronounce an American word is rather amusing.
Celaeno
>Sir Humphrey Davies originally called the element "alumium". Then he
>called it "aluminum". Then he called it "aluminium". We "lost"
>nothing. There were three variants used by the man who named the
>element, and we chose the second one.
>
>Had he stuck with his first, there'd have been no problem.
Might as well start bickering about why you call natrium sodium, and
kalium potassium. (Yes, I know why)
Cel
Bryan J. Maloney
<ek...@law.harvard.edu> wrote:
But in US English, we also have "tights" as a more distinct term. UK
English doesn't distinguish the two, by and large.
Bryan J. Maloney
Atkinson) wrote:
But it was sooooooooo much fun to watch him spew rubbish from a book
unsubstantiated by reality, as is the wont of his type.