Population of Rivendell?
Jussi Jaatinen
I know this isn't stated anywhere, but what kind of impression do you
guys have of how many Elves lived in Rivendell at the end of the Third
Age? It's never referred to as a city, but a "homely home", so my
impression is that there might have been around 100 Elves there, mostly
Noldor and Sindar. This is probably a small population compared to
Lindon, Lorien or Mirkwood (in that order) but culturally important,
since the Silvan Elves were "rustic" compared to Sindarin (not to
mention Noldorin) ones.
Were the Elves in Lindon mostly Sindar or Noldor?
-JJ
Chocoholic
"Jussi Jaatinen" <1...@1.au> wrote in message news:3F4B20F2...@1.au...
Probably in the low hundreds at most, yes. The army that held out there
during the first war between Sauron and the elves must have been glad to
disperse when the opportunity came. From the description, Elrond's 'Last
Homely House' seems to have been modelled on the traditional 'manor house'
which was a sort of communal dwelling for the 'ruling' family of an estate
(rather like the Great Smials for the Tooks or Brandy Hall for the
Brandybucks). But Elrond himself had little direct family present, so it
must have been more like a sort of 'official' building (like a medieval
castle) where most or all of the inhabitants lived together. Even allowing
several stories upward and many 'wings' it's hard to imagine a single
building in which more than few hundred people (even elves) could live
together comfortably with 'Renaissance' level technology. Of course, the
singular term 'House' of Elrond could be figurative and it might actually be
a complex.
Guessing at the content of the population is difficult. On the one hand we
have the clear statements of Tolkien that the Sindar vastly out-numbered the
other kindreds, yet we also have the fact that Elrond was the 'emissary' or
'regent' of Gil-Galad in Eriador and Gil-galad was High King of the Noldor.
Wouldn't he tend to send but other Noldor to represent him? And wouldn't
Elrond tend to keep any 'official' representatives around in preference to
'foot soldier' types?
Conrad Dunkerson
> I know this isn't stated anywhere, but what kind of impression do you
> guys have of how many Elves lived in Rivendell at the end of the Third
> Age?
Like you, I think there were relatively few people living at Rivendell
by the time Frodo arrived there. Probably fewer than one hundred,
even including the possibility of groups like Gildor's which travelled
about but used Rivendell as a base.
> Were the Elves in Lindon mostly Sindar or Noldor?
I tend to think that they were mostly Falathrim (Sindar) by that time,
but there really isn't any clear indication and the percentages
undoubtedly shifted over time.
pawn
>
> Like you, I think there were relatively few people living at Rivendell
> by the time Frodo arrived there. Probably fewer than one hundred,
> even including the possibility of groups like Gildor's which travelled
> about but used Rivendell as a base.
Well, that beats Rohan (at least in the movie).
Gary E. Masters
When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
under the hills for "research projects." In my mind, the house is
only the tip of the strucure.
Pradera
>> > Like you, I think there were relatively few people living at Rivendell
>> > by the time Frodo arrived there. Probably fewer than one hundred,
>> > even including the possibility of groups like Gildor's which travelled
>> > about but used Rivendell as a base.
>>
>> Well, that beats Rohan (at least in the movie).
>
> When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
> underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
> under the hills for "research projects." In my mind, the house is
> only the tip of the strucure.
And secret laboratories. And rocket silos. And giant mind-warping machine
of Doom. I can just imagine Elrond sitting there with an eye-patch, and his
white persian...
--
Pradera
---
I'm going hunting.
I'm a hunter.
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/earthdawn
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<pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
> On 27 sie 2003, gary4...@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) scribbled loosely:
>
> >> > Like you, I think there were relatively few people living at Rivendell
> >> > by the time Frodo arrived there. Probably fewer than one hundred,
> >> > even including the possibility of groups like Gildor's which travelled
> >> > about but used Rivendell as a base.
> >>
> >> Well, that beats Rohan (at least in the movie).
> >
> > When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
> > underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
> > under the hills for "research projects." In my mind, the house is
> > only the tip of the strucure.
>
> And secret laboratories. And rocket silos. And giant mind-warping machine
> of Doom. I can just imagine Elrond sitting there with an eye-patch, and his
> white persian...
elrond elrond sits at his positronic ray machine wreaking havoc
as arwenella having defeated his orgasmatron
is trying to awaken the black galdriel
Dave Stallard
I don't think we have any idea of the population of Lindon. We know
there's a settlement at the Grey Havens, but we don't know of any
others. It could well be smaller in population than Lorien, with just
scattered bands of Elves. There might be more Dwarves in the Blue
Mountains that Elves beyond the Lhun.
> Were the Elves in Lindon mostly Sindar or Noldor?
Well, the part of Lindon beyond the Blue Mountains (I'm also counting
the area between the mountains and the Lune as Lindon, which may be
wrong) was originally Ossiriand, was it not? And that had a
signifigant peopling of Nandor, who I guess are latecoming Sindarin.
Dave
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gary E. Masters <gary4...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
>underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
>under the hills for "research projects."
That sounds more like Saruman's Isengard.
--
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http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
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the softrat
>On 27 sie 2003, gary4...@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) scribbled loosely:
>
>>> > Like you, I think there were relatively few people living at Rivendell
>>> > by the time Frodo arrived there. Probably fewer than one hundred,
>>> > even including the possibility of groups like Gildor's which travelled
>>> > about but used Rivendell as a base.
>>>
>>> Well, that beats Rohan (at least in the movie).
>>
>> When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
>> underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
>> under the hills for "research projects." In my mind, the house is
>> only the tip of the strucure.
>
>And secret laboratories. And rocket silos. And giant mind-warping machine
>of Doom. I can just imagine Elrond sitting there with an eye-patch, and his
>white persian...
ROTFLMAO!
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics. No
matter if you win or lose you're still retarded.
Chud
> On 27 sie 2003, gary4...@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) scribbled loosely:
>
> >> > Like you, I think there were relatively few people living at Rivendell
> >> > by the time Frodo arrived there. Probably fewer than one hundred,
> >> > even including the possibility of groups like Gildor's which travelled
> >> > about but used Rivendell as a base.
> >>
> >> Well, that beats Rohan (at least in the movie).
> >
> > When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
> > underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
> > under the hills for "research projects." In my mind, the house is
> > only the tip of the strucure.
>
> And secret laboratories. And rocket silos. And giant mind-warping machine
> of Doom. I can just imagine Elrond sitting there with an eye-patch, and his
> white persian...
OMG dude, the Elrond as Dr. No reference in this thread had me laughing so hard
my sides are hurting.....glad I wasn't drinking a coke. ;-)
Donald Shepherd
> I can just imagine Elrond sitting there with an eye-patch, and his
> white persian...
"No, Frodo, I expect you to die."
Sounds startingly similar to what the actual feeling was, doesn't it?
vvvv
the 2nd Age. according to the Tale of Years, they stayed there for a couple
of years as they amassed.
considering that support for troops generally outnumber the actual troops
(e.g. fred the great, and stuff i read in barbara tuchman's "distant
mirror"), it wouldn't be outlandish to think that there is (or was, in the
S.A) quite a population in Rivendell. that's a lot of mutton!
also, consider that the "House" of Elrond is not necessarily just a house,
much like the cathedral is not the physical basilica, but is the symbolic
seat of the bishop (cathedra), a symbol of his power. so they wouldn't all
be quadrupling up in bilbo's future room, or sleeping in tents for 3 years.
i think the "House" is a broader notion than just the structure that they
all party in.
vvvv
"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.19b6c8f2b...@news.odyssey.net...
Conrad Dunkerson
> considering that support for troops generally outnumber the actual troops
> (e.g. fred the great, and stuff i read in barbara tuchman's "distant
> mirror"), it wouldn't be outlandish to think that there is (or was, in the
> S.A) quite a population in Rivendell. that's a lot of mutton!
Right, but that was more than 3,000 years before the events of LotR
and the 'house' had not even been built yet. It was a naturally
defensible valley that they holed up in and then used as a gathering
point.
> also, consider that the "House" of Elrond is not necessarily just a house,
> much like the cathedral is not the physical basilica, but is the symbolic
> seat of the bishop (cathedra), a symbol of his power. so they wouldn't all
> be quadrupling up in bilbo's future room, or sleeping in tents for 3 years.
> i think the "House" is a broader notion than just the structure that they
> all party in.
Tolkien made several drawings and paintings of the valley. All of
them show one large 'house'. One has a single additional (much
smaller) building which has sometimes been speculated to be stables or
the smithy where Anduril was reforged. There is no indication of
other buildings, a small town, or anything of that sort.
Stan Brown
>In article <Xns93E497C1A26ADp...@130.133.1.4>,
>Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote:
>>of Doom. I can just imagine Elrond sitting there with an eye-patch, and his
>>white persian...
>
Now if only we could boob-trap Usenet.
(No, I'm not thinking of you as a "boob". I just enjoyed your typo.)
Roger Clewley
> "vvvv" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<Cig3b.44005$ev.10...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
> [snip]
> > also, consider that the "House" of Elrond is not necessarily just a house,
> > much like the cathedral is not the physical basilica, but is the symbolic
> > seat of the bishop (cathedra), a symbol of his power. so they wouldn't all
> > be quadrupling up in bilbo's future room, or sleeping in tents for 3 years.
> > i think the "House" is a broader notion than just the structure that they
> > all party in.
>
> Tolkien made several drawings and paintings of the valley. All of them show one large 'house'.
> One has a single additional (much smaller) building which has sometimes been speculated to be
> stables or the smithy where Anduril was reforged. There is no indication of other buildings, a
> small town, or anything of that sort.
Two or three sketches of the same view in the same valley -- with different bridges. Don't I
believe even know if the 'house' in question was the "House" except for that the captions say
Rivendell (though I am willing to be proved wrong). As to the population of Rivendell, any guess is
valid as there is no evidence extant that is even close to conclusive. The Swiss valley that
Tolkien allegedly based Rivendell on, certainly has had a population significantly greater than 100
from at least medieval times. Besides is Imladris the name of just the valley or is also at the
same time also the name of the region bounded by the Bruinen, the Misty Mountains, and Eregion? This
could be argued from the textual references. Then what would the population be of this larger
region? So my suggestion is if you have the place in your role playing game, then have a small
population and much larger if you want to create a credible economic model.
RC
Russ
<rogerc...@telus.net> writes:
>Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
>> "vvvv" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:<Cig3b.44005$ev.10...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
>> [snip]
>
>> > also, consider that the "House" of Elrond is not necessarily just a
>house,
>> > much like the cathedral is not the physical basilica, but is the symbolic
>> > seat of the bishop (cathedra), a symbol of his power. so they wouldn't
>all
>> > be quadrupling up in bilbo's future room, or sleeping in tents for 3
>years.
>> > i think the "House" is a broader notion than just the structure that they
>> > all party in.
>>
>> Tolkien made several drawings and paintings of the valley. All of them
>show one large 'house'.
>> One has a single additional (much smaller) building which has sometimes
>been speculated to be
>> stables or the smithy where Anduril was reforged. There is no indication
>of other buildings, a
>> small town, or anything of that sort.
Irrelevant. Those sketches were done *before Tolkien expanded Rivendell into
the muster point for the Last Alliance and the subregency of Gil-galad.
<snip>
Russ
"There's no such thing as gratuitous sex."
I guess i said that.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Two or three sketches of the same view in the same valley -- with
> different bridges.
Actually, some of them showed different angles.
> Then what would the population be of this larger region?
There was certainly plenty of LAND available to support a large
population... you could put a modern city of several million people
there. However, there is nothing to suggest that there were numerous
buildings in place.
> So my suggestion is if you have the place in your role playing game,
> then have a small population and much larger if you want to create a
> credible economic model.
Economic model? Rivendell was hidden away and its location long
forgotten by many people. It clearly was not a major center of
commerce. The 'economic model' was probably most similar to a manor
house or plantation.
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
Perhaps at the time of the drawings, but Tolkien expanded the conception of
Rivendell and made it Gil-galad's sub capital and a staging area for the Last
Alliance. Actually more than a staging area considering the length of time
spent there.
The fact is, as Tolkien developed the history of the Second Age, Rivendell
received a much greater role than that of merely the Last Homely House as
depicted in the Hobbit. Significant armies were marshalled there and issued
from there.
Rivendell took in the population of Ost-in-edhil, it's forces demanded
significant attention from Sauorn's Army during the War of the Elves and
Sauron, it harbored the Noldorin and Arnorean armies of the Last Alliance,
still later its armies met those of Angar in battle and saved, for a time, the
northern kingdom.
Rivendell had been around for 4500 years or so by the time of the War of the
Ring. The Noldor was leavign and fading fast at that point. It was very much
a shadow of it's former self. Thus, in story, its a mistake to use its
condition at the end of the Third Age as a barometer of its condition in the
last half of the Second Age and, out of story, it's a mistake to use early
Hobbit-era drawing of it that doesn't take into account Tolkien's later
expansion of Rivendell in his tales.
Russ
Conrad Dunkerson
> Irrelevant. Those sketches were done *before Tolkien expanded Rivendell into
> the muster point for the Last Alliance and the subregency of Gil-galad.
Irrelevant. Those events took place thousands of years before the
Rivendell seen in The Hobbit and LotR. It is like trying to say that
there should be thousands of troops on a small plot of land outside
Morristown, NJ because that is where Washington's headquarters was
more than two hundred years ago.
The Rivendell Tolkien drew in those various sketches is consistent
with the place he described in The Hobbit and LotR. That it is
inconsistent with events which took place there more than 3000 years
earlier is hardly surprising.
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
>mcr...@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote in message
>news:<20030830225133...@mb-m14.aol.com>...
>
>> Irrelevant. Those sketches were done *before Tolkien expanded Rivendell
>into
>> the muster point for the Last Alliance and the subregency of Gil-galad.
>
>Irrelevant. Those events took place thousands of years before the
>Rivendell seen in The Hobbit and LotR. It is like trying to say that
>there should be thousands of troops on a small plot of land outside
>Morristown, NJ because that is where Washington's headquarters was
>more than two hundred years ago.
Not a good analogy. Rivendell was the only elvish settlement of any kind in
all of Eriador after the fall of Eregion. The same cannot be said of
Morristown NJ and the US Army.
>The Rivendell Tolkien drew in those various sketches is consistent
>with the place he described in The Hobbit and LotR.
We don't really get a good description of Rivendell in LOTR. Frodo crosses the
Bruinen and then wakes up in Elrond's House.
> That it is
>inconsistent with events which took place there more than 3000 years
>earlier is hardly surprising.
Well of course. My point being that therefore it is a mistake to try to use
the Hobbit-era drawings as for what Tolkien had in mind nearly a generation
later in LOTR and later writings. The valley was assuredly larger than that
depicted in Tolkiens early drawings.
My opinion is that by the time of the Last Alliance, Rivendell was a
significant settlement. Between the War of the Elves and Sauron and and the
Last Alliance (abt. 1300 years!), Gil-galad's realm increased markedly,
including over the Misty Mountains. That area would have been controlled by
Elrond in addition to his usual oversight of Eriador. I think Rivendell could
safely have been called a city - not a Gondolin, Forlondon, or Ost-in-edhel,
but a significant concentration nonetheless. Rivendell's population would be
increasing during this time.
The turn would come, of course, after the Last Alliance, Gil-galad's fall, and
Elrond's refusal/failure/inability/whatever to take up the crown or otherwise
attempt to keep Gil-galad's realm going as a continuing concern. Instead we
see the fading of the Elves, particualarly the Eldar and would expect a
corresponding reduction over time in Rivendell's population. Elrond would not
allow ruins to accumulate, so I would think there would be dismantlement,
planned reclamation by the forest, or a combination of both. There were 3,000
years after all and not much to do most of the time.
At the time of the War of the Ring, Rivendell was still probably more populated
than any single hobbit town or even Bree.
Russ
Roger Clewley
> Roger Clewley <rogerc...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<3F5157D0...@telus.net>...
>
> > Two or three sketches of the same view in the same valley -- with
> > different bridges.
>
> Actually, some of them showed different angles.
>
Well I have since looked at two of the pictures. "Rivendell" shows a single span bridge in a
narrow valley, "Rivendell Looking East" shows a three span bridge in a valley in a wider valley.
The topography is quite different. Neither identifies any structure depicted as the House of
Elrond. I do not have access to the work "Tolkien as an Artist" so can say nothing about the
three other sketches he made of Rivendell. Those wishing to infer the structure in the named
pictures is the House certainly can, though if both of these pictures were to stand as evidence
then it would have had to exist into two separate locations at the same time.
> > Then what would the population be of this larger region?
>
> There was certainly plenty of LAND available to support a large
> population... you could put a modern city of several million people
> there. However, there is nothing to suggest that there were numerous
> buildings in place.
Nor in fact, that there wasn't. As I previously wrote, there is nothing even close to conclusive
evidence one way or the other. You can depict in one's mind a small Rivendell or a large, free
from any inconvient evidence.
> > So my suggestion is if you have the place in your role playing game,
> > then have a small population and much larger if you want to create a
> > credible economic model.
>
> Economic model? Rivendell was hidden away and its location long
> forgotten by many people. It clearly was not a major center of
> commerce. The 'economic model' was probably most similar to a manor
> house or plantation.
Even positing the meanest manor house with a blacksmithery, household servants, agriculture,
etc., you would be hard pressed to create a viable community with less than a hundred individuals
even populating it with 'immortal' elves. And Tolkien in one of his letters, does say the normal
rules of social and economic existence do apply to Middle-earth as an unstated background. I do
not think that Galdor was being ironic when he asked whether Elrond (or Cirdan or in Lorien) had
the strength to deny the Enemy the Ring. If he already knew Elrond in Imladris had but a handful
of defenders (50 or less), the question would be foolish or derisive. The sense I had from the
text was that in Rivendell there was strength of numbers (and of the 'art' of controlling its
waters) to defend against most threats but not nearly sufficient against the coming of Sauron
himself and his minions if they came to seize the Ring.
vvvv
House, a "House", i.e., a symbol noble lineage or authority. granted, i have
only meager mediaeval studies to rest my hunch on...
how many troops did Gil-galad take to the last alliance? thousands, surely.
that has to mean thousands more in support personnel, for *years*. a big
plantation or hotel cannot have supported that large a group for years
without ordering out.
rivendell must have declined in numbers betw. the Last Alliance and LOTR,
etc. the elves were heading West, departing. so perhaps we can say that the
population of rivendell declined, but we can't say for sure that they all
moved in to elrond's living room. i think the impression when Bilbo arrives
is that there are lots of elves frolicking, calling him names.
also, am i iincorrect that rivendell withstood a seige at one point in the
2nd age? i seem to remember that...
vvvv
"Roger Clewley" <rogerc...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:3F54EA35...@telus.net...
AC
vvvv <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> i still maintain that the "House of Elrond" is distinct from the Last Homely
> House, a "House", i.e., a symbol noble lineage or authority. granted, i have
> only meager mediaeval studies to rest my hunch on...
>
> how many troops did Gil-galad take to the last alliance? thousands, surely.
> that has to mean thousands more in support personnel, for *years*. a big
> plantation or hotel cannot have supported that large a group for years
> without ordering out.
As I recall, Rivendell was not founded until after the Last Alliance and
Gil-galad's fall (I could be wrong, though, I'm not near my books). Beyond
that, Gil-galad didn't dwell in Eriador, but in Lindon, which was the
remnant of Beleriand still above the Sea. I'm quite certain that Lindon
could have supported a far greater number of people than Rivendell.
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
Tar-Elenion
tao...@alberni.net says...
Rivendell was founded during the War of Elves and Sauron, shortly after
the fall of Eregion, when Elrond, his army, and the survivors of Eregion
were forced to retreat north before Sauron's forces. Elrond was beseiged
while Sauron overran Eriador. For the Last Alliance, Imladris seem to
have been the main muster point in the north where Gil-galad and Elendil
stayed for 3 years building up their forces.
--
Tar-Elenion
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Johnny1A
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gary E. Masters <gary4...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >When I see the pictures of Rivendell, I like to imagine all sorts of
> >underground tunnels going to defensive positions and great spaces
> >under the hills for "research projects."
>
> That sounds more like Saruman's Isengard.
If we scale it down a bit, though, it's not utterly implausible. I
tend to think Rivendell itself was probably home to a few hundred
(100-500) Elves full-time, but that there were probably a modest
number of additional Elves who lived in the valley or the countryside
about. I also suspect that there probably were some other buildings
and facilities around.
It's not impossible that there were caves used by the Elves for this
or that, though I certainly don't think Imladris was "Isengard-North".
Shermanlee
Yuk Tang
news:slrnblcs9o...@whop-paC-006c.alberni.net:
> As I recall, Rivendell was not founded until after the Last
> Alliance and Gil-galad's fall (I could be wrong, though, I'm not
> near my books).
[Second Age]
1693
War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
1695
Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697
Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are
shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge
of Imladris.
> Beyond that, Gil-galad didn't dwell in Eriador,
> but in Lindon, which was the remnant of Beleriand still above the
> Sea. I'm quite certain that Lindon could have supported a far
> greater number of people than Rivendell.
--
Cheers, ymt.
AC
> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in
> news:slrnblcs9o...@whop-paC-006c.alberni.net:
>>
>> As I recall, Rivendell was not founded until after the Last
>> Alliance and Gil-galad's fall (I could be wrong, though, I'm not
>> near my books).
>
> [Second Age]
>
> 1693
> War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
> 1695
> Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
> 1697
> Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are
> shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge
> of Imladris.
Boy, two strikes in two days. Time to hit the books again!
--
Aaron Clausen
Donald Shepherd
> Boy, two strikes in two days. Time to hit the books again!
A third one, and you're getting benced!
--
*Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul*
Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks, Fool of AFT
"If Tolkien had meant for us to have a sense of humor, he would have
told us so." - Mark Reichart
Conrad Dunkerson
> Rivendell was founded during the War of Elves and Sauron, shortly after
> the fall of Eregion, when Elrond, his army, and the survivors of Eregion
> were forced to retreat north before Sauron's forces. Elrond was beseiged
> while Sauron overran Eriador. For the Last Alliance, Imladris seem to
> have been the main muster point in the north where Gil-galad and Elendil
> stayed for 3 years building up their forces.
They retreated to that valley and later used it as a muster point, but
it is unclear whether a settlement was 'founded' there at that time.
It could have just been tents or other temporary shelters. In neither
of those cases did it appear that there was an intent for the forces
to STAY there... it was just a naturally defensible position near
enemy territory. I tend to think that the 'house' came later, once
everything had quieted down. It would seem odd for Elrond to be
building a big comfy manor house at the temporary shelter point before
marching off to possible death. After the war it would make a great
place to settle down, but during the war I think it was probably just
a temporary military camp.
Gary E. Masters
It does. And I never saw it.
I think of the fellow in Time Bandits who was looking for computer
secrets and ISDN some of the time, but my favorite image is from Simak
and his pastorial halls where people dream and talk to the stars.
Gunnar Krüger
Newsbeitrag news:1178b6d1.03090...@posting.google.com...
Well, Elrond 'founded the refuge of Imladris' in 1697. The muster of the
Last Alliance took place in 3431-3434. (LotR, Appendix B)
Since the first quote speaks of 'the refuge' instead of just 'a refuge', I'd
take it that the same refuge is meant that we know from the tale of LotR.
And since the 1734 years between these two events are quite a long time even
in elvish recogning, I'd assume that there was more than just some temporary
shelter at Imladris at the time of the Last Alliance.
Gunnar
--
A Short Guide to Comparative Religions:
1. Taoism - Shit happens.
Russ
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes:
"1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut.
Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris."
Elrond didn't 'march off to possible death' for another 1700 years with the
Last Alliance.
In between that time, Rivendell was not simply a refuge or muster point but was
Gil-galad's sub-capital of Eriador because Elrond was Viceroy.
Russ