_The Last of the Wine_ (and howdy!)
ming
author' thread and noticed that Mary Renault was mentioned. _The Last of the
Wine_ is in a big tie-up for my favorite book ever. She really makes you
feel like you're there, intimately involved in those events, y'know?
But apart from that, the book inspired me to profound moral and
philosophical reevaluation. Was anyone else so moved by this book? How about
other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF changed
your life?
Yours faithfully,
Ming
Peter Millen
ming <ming2min...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>I just found this newsgroup. It looks good! I was scanning the 'favorite
>author' thread and noticed that Mary Renault was mentioned. _The Last of the
>Wine_ is in a big tie-up for my favorite book ever. She really makes you
>feel like you're there, intimately involved in those events, y'know?
>
>But apart from that, the book inspired me to profound moral and
>philosophical reevaluation. Was anyone else so moved by this book?
Alexias is among the mob baying for the blood of the admirals..it just
makes me shiver.
She presents such a compelling view of the people of Classical Greece
that I have to feel that (as with the best O'Brian), if it wasn't like
that it ought to have been.
> How about
>other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF changed
>your life?
I wouldn't claim (or admit?) that much, but I find Renault infinitely
re-readable, along with O'Brian, Holland and Graves.
--
Peter Millen
ming
"Peter Millen" <PMI...@petermillen.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7A0FWEAI...@petermillen.demon.co.uk...
> The Last of the Wine is a belter, like most Renault. The scene where
> Alexias is among the mob baying for the blood of the admirals..it just
> makes me shiver.
Yes! And on the sinking ship when they have to give up their arms, to
Posidon, gentlemen, but not to the Spartans! and right in the beginning,
when he stands in the Acropolis watching the sun rise over the ships, and
all the gods speak to him in one voice. And when he asks his stepmother for
the armor, something like, "If I am not a man today, tomorrow it will be too
late." And a hundred other scenes; I think I have bookmarks at about every
other page.
>
> She presents such a compelling view of the people of Classical Greece
> that I have to feel that (as with the best O'Brian), if it wasn't like
> that it ought to have been.
Exactly. All except _Funeral Games_. Or anyway, I *think* all except
_Funeral Games_; I couldn't stand it. It was too sad and it made me too
angry. I have tried three times and I can't get farther than the first 75
pages or so. Is there any hope in there? Ugh.
So, O'Brian is Patrick O'Brian, right? The seven hundred or so seafaring
novels? I have been meaning to check him out for quite a while; which one
would you start with?
>
> > How about
> >other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF
changed
> >your life?
>
> I wouldn't claim (or admit?) that much, but I find Renault infinitely
> re-readable, along with O'Brian, Holland and Graves.
Holland I'm not familiar with. It is Graves who wrote _I Claudius_, right?
which is on a shelf downstairs and I haven't read that either! I have to
work that into my reading list.
:o)
Ming
MattsMum
In reply to Ming's:-
<<
I just found this newsgroup. It looks good! I was scanning the 'favourite
author' thread and noticed that Mary Renault was mentioned. _The Last of the
Wine_ is in a big tie-up for my favorite book ever. She really makes you
feel like you're there, intimately involved in those events, y'know?
But apart from that, the book inspired me to profound moral and
philosophical reevaluation. Was anyone else so moved by this book? How about
other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF changed
your life?
Yours faithfully,
Ming.>>
I've just started to reread Mary Renault's books. I read them first as a
teenager and was fascinated by them. I started rereading them last year when I
was studying Homer and my tutor recommended them as a very good introduction to
Greek myth and the idea of 6th and 5th century Greece.
Some of her books seem to be difficult to obtain in the UK. I have been trying
to get hold of The Charioteer, which I am informed is now out of print.
Oh, and anyone wanting a really, really good book (and so readable) about the
ancient Greeks...try a good translation of Heroditus......wonderful stuff..full
of both fact and fiction!
best wishes
Janet
Peter Millen
ming <ming2min...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>So, O'Brian is Patrick O'Brian, right? The seven hundred or so seafaring
>novels? I have been meaning to check him out for quite a while; which one
>would you start with?
>
with Master & Commander, the first one.
>
>Holland I'm not familiar with.
prolific output covered many countries and historical periods, rather
than specialising like Renault.
>It is Graves who wrote _I Claudius_, right?
>which is on a shelf downstairs and I haven't read that either! I have to
>work that into my reading list.
>
these authors works does not guarantee enjoyment for you.
--
Peter Millen
S
looking for a good book to read. Now, I have a two-page list. Where to
start? Anyhow, I am willing to email the list to anyone interested.
Just let me know.
As far as which book touched me. I would say that most of them do. I
always learn something from each one. But, maybe my choices would be
the Arthurian series by Bernard Cromwell was a real-life "as it could
have been" look at the creation of England. Very good. And then
there's the 3rd or 4th (I forget which) book in the Kent Family
Chronicles by John Jakes, where Amanda Kent gets raped. Made me very
mad. And lastly, Diane Gabaldon's series where Jamie is running from
the English - made me feel like I was running too.
Interesting to here so much opinion of Renault. I will have to check
her out soon.
S.
In article <XI_A4.5425$9M1.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"ming" <ming2min...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I just found this newsgroup. It looks good! I was scanning the
'favorite
> author' thread and noticed that Mary Renault was mentioned. _The Last
of the
> Wine_ is in a big tie-up for my favorite book ever. She really makes
you
> feel like you're there, intimately involved in those events, y'know?
>
> But apart from that, the book inspired me to profound moral and
> philosophical reevaluation. Was anyone else so moved by this book? How
about
> other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF
changed
> your life?
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
> Ming
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Larry M Headlund
<deleted>
> And then
>there's the 3rd or 4th (I forget which) book in the Kent Family
>Chronicles by John Jakes, where Amanda Kent gets raped. Made me very
>mad.
It is a shame that Jakes stopped the Kent Family Chronicles when he
did. I expected that the final volume would be where a female member
of the Kent Family lived her whole life without getting raped.
--
--
Larry Headlund l...@world.std.com Mathematical Engineering, Inc.
(617) 242 7741
Unix, X and Motif Consulting
Speaking for myself at most.
Rollin Baker
>It is a shame that Jakes stopped the Kent Family Chronicles when he
>did. I expected that the final volume would be where a female member
>of the Kent Family lived her whole life without getting raped.
>Larry Headlund l...@world.std.com Mathematical Engineering, Inc.
>Unix, X and Motif Consulting
>Speaking for myself at most.
You actually managed to make it through the whole wretched morass?
My hats off to you, sir. (were I wearing one.)
A shining example of lowest common denominator writing...
Rollin
BoxHill
>Some of her books seem to be difficult to obtain in the UK. I have been
>trying
>to get hold of The Charioteer, which I am informed is now out of print.
The Charioteer is not about Ancient Greece--it is set shortly after Dunkirk
(with a few flashbacks to the 30s). The title is indeed a reference to the
famous statue of the charioteer at Delphi, though. It's an excellent book,
about young men coming to terms with their homosexuality.
Ming, I, too had a profound reaction to The Last of the Wine. It is *such* a
superb book--I was thinking just the other day about the statement that
Socrates' philosophy turned the key and let Kritias free, and that Socrates
assumed that the free mind would turn to the good, but Kritias, alas, did not.
It is an issue that resonates very deeply today.
Reading that book (and The Charioteer) at the age of about 14 or 15 was the
first time I ever thought much about homosexuality, and it definitely formed my
understanding and accepting mindset. (In the late 60s it was unusual! <G>)
I also particularly recommend The Mask of Apollo, but you should really read
all of her books. (You'll get much more out of Mask if you have read The Last
of the Wine first.) About 5 or 6 of them were roughly contemporary when written
(and also very good); the rest are historical.
As for the great Patrick O'Brian, without a doubt you should start with Master
and Commander.
Janet
//Dear Artemesia! Poetry's a snare:
//Bedlam has many Mansions: have a care:
//Your Muse diverts you, makes the Reader sad:
//You think your self inspir'd; He thinks you mad.
Ernie Sjogren
>I just found this newsgroup. It looks good! I was scanning the 'favorite
>author' thread and noticed that Mary Renault was mentioned. _The Last of the
>Wine_ is in a big tie-up for my favorite book ever. She really makes you
>feel like you're there, intimately involved in those events, y'know?
>
>But apart from that, the book inspired me to profound moral and
>philosophical reevaluation. Was anyone else so moved by this book? How about
>other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF changed
>your life?
>
>Yours faithfully,
>
>Ming
Howdy to you, too!
Just plain nice to hear good things said about Mary Renault. What a
wonderful writer she was.
-- Ernie Sjogren
S
content myself, but what I like about his books is the political history
content he puts into the characters, and he always has an active plot.
Nothing worse than a book that goes nowhere.
I think the "lowest" is a bit strong though myself, or he wouldn't have
been such a good selling author. And his books were made into movies -
that must mean he accomplished something. I liked his books personally.
:-)
S.
In article <22MAR200...@eql14.caltech.edu>,
Larry M Headlund
Rollin Baker <rol...@eql14.caltech.edu> wrote:
>In article <Frs3C...@world.std.com>, l...@world.std.com (Larry M Headlund) writes...
>
>>It is a shame that Jakes stopped the Kent Family Chronicles when he
>>did. I expected that the final volume would be where a female member
>>of the Kent Family lived her whole life without getting raped.
>
>
>My hats off to you, sir. (were I wearing one.)
>
>A shining example of lowest common denominator writing...
They were good bad novels. Excessively light would be a good description.
I read them when I was in grad school to sedate my brain so I could
get some sleep.
There is an interesting suggestion for the final volume: A member of
the Kent family moves to a small town in America. He marries but the
union is childless. One day, he and his wife find a crashed
rocket with a small baby passenger ....
--
--
Larry Headlund l...@world.std.com Mathematical Engineering, Inc.
Rollin Baker
>I think the "lowest" is a bit strong though myself, or he wouldn't have
>been such a good selling author. And his books were made into movies -
>that must mean he accomplished something. I liked his books personally.
>:-)
>
>S.
Weeel, I was always sorry he gave up the hack fantasy novels he used to write
that probably paid little and started writing the hack historicals that
I found far less intriguing. OTOH, I betcha he made a lot more money at
'em...
As to accomplishing something, I'm sure it did.
Made him rich, probably. :)
Rollin
Gael McGear Sweeney
have to take -- called it "The Athenians." We read "The Symposium,"
some sections of THE REPUBLIC, a bit of poetry, some speeches, THE
TROJAN WOMEN -- and THE LAST OF THE WINE. My students loved it because
they felt it gave them a context for what life on a daily basis was
like in Classical Athens. It also goes wonderfully with the Plato
because so many of the characters are present in the dialogues. Quite a
few kids in the class went on to read THE MASK OF APOLLO, THE PERSIAN
BOY, and other Renault books. Quite a few of them also went on to read
some more of Plato and the tragedies as well, so I counted the whole
experience a success.
In article <XI_A4.5425$9M1.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"ming" <ming2min...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I just found this newsgroup. It looks good! I was scanning the 'favorite
> author' thread and noticed that Mary Renault was mentioned. _The Last of the
> Wine_ is in a big tie-up for my favorite book ever. She really makes you
> feel like you're there, intimately involved in those events, y'know?
>
> But apart from that, the book inspired me to profound moral and
> philosophical reevaluation. Was anyone else so moved by this book? How about
> other ones that are more than "just" fun and educational? Which HF changed
> your life?
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
> Ming
>
Gael
Visit My Gael McGear Homepage!
Home of The Poptarts and Knickers in a Twist
http://members.aol.com/gaelmcgear/gaelpage.html
Ask about The Poptarts CD: FRESH OUT OF THE TOASTER!
*To the Toppermost of the Poppermost!*
S
ming
"BoxHill" <box...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000322171632...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> >
> >Some of her books seem to be difficult to obtain in the UK. I have been
> >trying
> >to get hold of The Charioteer, which I am informed is now out of print.
>
> The Charioteer is not about Ancient Greece--it is set shortly after
Dunkirk
> (with a few flashbacks to the 30s). The title is indeed a reference to the
> famous statue of the charioteer at Delphi, though. It's an excellent book,
> about young men coming to terms with their homosexuality.
>
> Ming, I, too had a profound reaction to The Last of the Wine. It is *such*
a
> superb book--I was thinking just the other day about the statement that
> Socrates' philosophy turned the key and let Kritias free, and that
Socrates
> assumed that the free mind would turn to the good, but Kritias, alas, did
not.
> It is an issue that resonates very deeply today.
Yes! I can see Alexias and Phaedo sitting on the Pnyx, while the world was
crumbling around them. Um, " ...and now Kritias is running wild on the
mountain, with nothing more between him and his will than a wolf has," and
something about how he had lost whatever kept a man on two feet instead of
four. And Phaedo, comparing himself to Kritias and Alkibiades, staring from
the precipice they fell from. Whew!
>
> Reading that book (and The Charioteer) at the age of about 14 or 15 was
the
> first time I ever thought much about homosexuality, and it definitely
formed my
> understanding and accepting mindset. (In the late 60s it was unusual! <G>)
>
> I also particularly recommend The Mask of Apollo, but you should really
read
> all of her books. (You'll get much more out of Mask if you have read The
Last
> of the Wine first.) About 5 or 6 of them were roughly contemporary when
written
> (and also very good); the rest are historical.
Ah! _The Mask of Apollo_ was the first one I read, ages ago. Amazing. I will
never forget the scene backstage when Niko first meets Dion; and the
parallels to the backstage scene at the end of the book. And the thing at
the end with the bracelet and the tomb, man, that made me cry.
>
> As for the great Patrick O'Brian, without a doubt you should start with
Master
> and Commander.
> Janet
Thanks!
Ming
jeffstokes
history at my local university. I asked the tutor just how good he
thought Mary Renault's history was. Sadly, the learned professor had
never read her, though his wife had been pressing him to do so for
years. Glad there are more enlightened teachers out there!
Gael McGear Sweeney <gswe...@mailbox.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:38daf...@news.syr.edu...
Kay
novels about ancient Greece (Renault is on the list of course) which I
invite the students to read and then evaluate, not so much in terms of
literary quality, as in how well (and accurately) it portrays ancient
Greek culture.
Chris Camfield
Chris
Kay
>
> Kay, would it be possible for you to post that list?
Oh my. I guess. Here it is. Both the list and what I tell my students
about evaluating it (minus instructions on formating the paper). My
apologies for the length. This list is based on books I've read myself,
not necessarily on the quality of those books. I've included both good
and bad books on the list deliberately.
-------------
Read and evaluate a novel for it's accuracy in portrayal of the ancient
Greek society (and history) of it's era. THIS IS NOT A BOOK REPORT.
Papers which are merely plot summaries will NOT receive credit. You may
feel free to comment on theme or plot, but it must be secondary. Your
main task is to evaluate the novel for it's use (or abuse) of history.
You may choose any book from the list following. Some of them might
prove difficult (or even impossible) to find--which is why I'm giving
such a large selection. Most are NOT still in print. You'll have to
try the library, not the bookstore. They range in date of publication.
When you write your evaluation, make sure that you take the date of
publication into consideration. (E.g. A book which deals frankly with
Greek homoeroticism in the 1950s is a lot more daring than one which
does so in the 1990s! Also, take note of what may have been discovered,
archaelogically speaking, in the meantime. Books about Alexander and
Macedonia published before 1978-79 are missing a LOT of new
archaeological information which has emerged since.)
Read the book and make notes to yourself. What are you looking for?
Accuracy. How well do you think this book portrays Greek civilization?
Are their any problems with it? Are there any anachronisms, either of
object (e.g., such things as matches or stirrups or spinning wheels
since they weren't yet introduced), or of attitude (e.g., modern views
of women)? Be specific. Some of the books on this list are very well
done, others are very bad. (What's an 'anachronism'? Go look up the
word if you don't know.)
....
I'm listing the books in their chronological order, with respect to
antiquity (bronze age through hellenistic). They come from a variety of
genres, including SF, alternate history, mysteries and even romances.
If it's not specified, it's a "straight" historical.
-----
WHOM THE GODS WOULD DESTROY, Richard Powell (1970) - Trojan War
THE FIREBRAND, Marion Zimmer Bradley (1987), fantasy - Trojan War
THE KING MUST DIE (1958) and THE BULL FROM THE SEA (1962), Mary Renault
- Theseus
(These are a duology about Theseus; the latter makes more sense if
you read the first, first. But I read them "backwards" myself and
understood them just fine.)
ARIADNE (1980) and PHAEDRA (1985), June Rachuy Brindel - Theseus
(Another duology which can be read as a pair...or not)
MY NAME IS SAPPHO (1974) [sometimes BURNING SAPPHO], Martha Rofheart -
Sappho, the poetess (Archaic)
THE OTHER SAPPHO (1989), Ellen Frye - Sappho
THE LAUGHTER OF APHRODITE (1965), Peter Green - Sappho
THE PRAISE SINGER (1979), Mary Renault - Archaic, generally
GATES OF FIRE (1998), Steven Pressfield - Persian Wars (Battle of
Thermopylae)
SOLDIER OF THE MIST (1986) and SOLDIER OF ARETE (1989), Gene Wolfe -
Persian Wars
(Another trilogy, but it's hard to make sense of #2 without reading
#1; ostensibly fantasy/science fiction)
THE LION IN THE GATEWAY (1964), Mary Renault - Persian Wars
PERICLES THE ATHENIAN (1963), Rex Warner - Perikles
THE GLORY AND THE LIGHTENING (1974), Taylor Caldwell - Perikles and
Aspasia
ACHILLES HIS ARMOR (1955), Peter Green - Alkibiades and the
Peloponnesian War
THE FLOWERS OF ADONIS (1969), Rosemary Sutcliff - Alkibiades and the
Peloponnesian War
THE LAST OF THE WINE (1956), Mary Renault - Sokrates and the
Peloponnesian War
SIREN'S CALL (1994), Merline Lovelace - Peloponnesian War (Romance)
GOAT SONG (1989) and THE WALLED ORCHARD (1990), Tom Holt - Fifth
Century, miscellaneous
(You can read them separately; don't confuse the first with the one
below)
GOAT SONG (1967), Frank Yerby - Sparta, Fifth Century, miscellaneous and
Peloponnesian War (Romance)
ANABASIS (1994), Ellen Gilchrist - End of Fifth Century and
Peloponnesian War
THE MASK OF APOLLO (1966), Mary Renault - early Fourth Century, Syracuse
in Sicily and the theater
ARISTOTLE DETECTIVE (1978), Margaret Doody - Aristotle, of course
(Mystery)
THE BRONZE GOD OF RHODES (1960), L. Sprague De Camp - early Hellenistic
(right after Alexander's death)
Novels on Alexander the Great: (there are so many, I'm separating them
out; they're in slightly different format)
1928: Konrad Bercovici, Alexander: a Romantic Biography
1930: Klaus Mann, Alexander: a Novel of Utopia
1933: Mary Butts, The Macedonian
1941: Nikos Kazantzakis, Alexander the Great (juvenile)
1946: Harold Lamb, Alexander of Macedon (fictionalized biography)
1949: Jakob Wasserman, Alexander in Babylon
1954: Robert Payne, Alexander the God (historical fantasy)
1957: Karl V. Eiker, Star of Macedon
1959: Alfred Powers, Alexander's Horses
1960: Maurice Druon (Maurice Kessel) Alexander the God
1962: Edison Marshall, The Conqueror
1965: Noel B. Gerson, The Golden Lyre (Romance)
1965: Helga Moray, I, Roxana (Romance)
1969: Mary Renault (Mary Challans), Fire From Heaven
1971: Helga Moray, Roxana and Alexander (Romance)
1971: _____, A Son for Roxana (Romance)
1972: Mary Renault, The Persian Boy
1981: Mary Renault, Funeral Games
1986: Melissa Scott, A Choice of Destinies (SF, alternate history)
1990: David Gemmell, Lion of Macedon (fantasy)
1991: David Gemmell, Dark Prince (fantasy)
1993: Judith Tarr, Lord of the Two Lands (mainstream/historical fantasy)
1994: Ben Bova, Orion and the Conqueror (SF)
1996: Merline Lovelace, Lady of the Upper Kingdom (Romance)
1997: Anna Apostolou (P.C. Doherty), A Murder in Macedon (mystery)
1998: _____, A Murder in Thebes (mystery) - IP
Ming
:o)
Ming
"Chris Camfield" <ccam...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:38f27d7...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> Kay, would it be possible for you to post that list?
>
> Chris
Chris Camfield
I have some reading to catch up on... :-)
Chris
eft...@attglobal.net
>Chris Camfield wrote:
>>
>> Kay, would it be possible for you to post that list?
>
>Oh my. I guess. Here it is.
Snipped the list.
You might want to look for Gillian Bradshaw's new book: The Sand Reckoner with an
eye to adding it to the list. It's about young Archimedes during the first seige of Syracuse.
She usually tries to get the history right. I don't know enough about Archimedes'
period to tell in this one. Anyway, it ought to be relatively easy to find, as I read
it new within the last month. Bradshaw's written a few books I haven't enjoyed much,
but this one was very readable, and IMO, a decent attempt to portray a genius.
Elaine
dltjxx
>I will never forget the scene backstage when Niko first meets Dion;
>and the parallels to the backstage scene at the end of the book.
This parallel hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it.
Plato/Dion/Aristotle etc., yes. The two backstage scenes, no.
>And the thing at the end with the bracelet and the tomb, man,
>that made me cry.
??? I recall only coming to the end, then contemplating the story
quietly--and with some annoyance that it wasn't longer. Same
with most of Renault's books.
Scenes I recall best: the performance of The Bacchae, Niko's
dialogue with the Mask. There are others, but those are the first
two which come to mind--along with the final scene from Fire from
Heaven, where the eagle soars upwards with the snake, and both
disappear. Stunning.
Deborah
Kay
lot in both quality of writing and quality of research (and I didn't
mark which was which on purpose; that's the student's job).
Also....
eft...@attglobal.net wrote:
> You might want to look for Gillian Bradshaw's new book: The Sand Reckoner with an
> eye to adding it to the list. It's about young Archimedes during the first seige of Syracuse.
> She usually tries to get the history right. I don't know enough about Archimedes'
> period to tell in this one. Anyway, it ought to be relatively easy to find, as I read
> it new within the last month. Bradshaw's written a few books I haven't enjoyed much,
> but this one was very readable, and IMO, a decent attempt to portray a genius.
Elaine - Thanks! I know Pressfield has out a new one, too, just
published on Alkibiades. I haven't read it yet. I thought he did okay
with GATES OF FIRE. Some nitpicks, but overall, it was worth the money.
:) I'll have to look for the Bradshaw. I'ver read HORSES OF HEAVEN (or
rather, I tried; even though I'm an Alex historian, I found it deadly
dull), and I liked the one about Alexandria (title escapes me). But
otherwise, the only book of Bradshaw's I really *liked* was her first
one, HAWK OF MAY, which is actually historical fantasy. Her prose is
beautiful, but a little...cool? I can't explain it, but I just haven't
found myself interested in the characters as I should be. Maybe that's
just me. But I'll look for the new one. I've always found Archimedes
fascinating, and the Hellenistic age, as well.
Ming
news:8cvmnc$3ep$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> >_The Mask of Apollo_ was the first one I read, ages ago. Amazing.
> >I will never forget the scene backstage when Niko first meets Dion;
> >and the parallels to the backstage scene at the end of the book.
>
> This parallel hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it.
> Plato/Dion/Aristotle etc., yes. The two backstage scenes, no.
>
> >And the thing at the end with the bracelet and the tomb, man,
> >that made me cry.
>
> ??? I recall only coming to the end, then contemplating the story
> quietly--and with some annoyance that it wasn't longer. Same
> with most of Renault's books.
It was almost the last line, I haven't got it in front of me but I'll try to
remember- wait, here's the book:
But first, just in case:
S
p
o
i
l
e
r
In the last couple of pages, when they're back from performing at Pella,
Niko is talking about how people would not fight for Dion, but they'll die
for Alexander. And he thinks that Alexander will wander over the world
looking for what Plato might have given him.
And then he goes out to the Academy and sits by Plato's tomb. He pulls off
the bracelet that Alexander gave him and sets it on the tomb. Beautiful!
Especially remembering how when Alexander first gave the bracelet to Niko,
the gold was warm from Alexander wearing it a second before; the warmth
spread through Niko. He never takes it off until he gets out to Plato's
tomb, where he removes it and puts it on the marble, which is warm from the
sun, "...as if I laid a hand in a hand." And there I am, sobbing!
This is what got me, and thinking of what Alexander might have become if he
had had Plato as a teacher. I read it that Renault is saying that
Alexander's life might have been less tragic, and Plato might have had his
philosopher king, if only the two had met.
The last line is:
"No one will ever make a tragedy- and that is as well, for one could not
bear it- whose grief is that the principals never met."
> Scenes I recall best: the performance of The Bacchae, Niko's
> dialogue with the Mask. There are others, but those are the first
> two which come to mind--along with the final scene from Fire from
> Heaven, where the eagle soars upwards with the snake, and both
> disappear. Stunning.
Yes! That was brilliant. I also love the part right before Alexander's first
fight (when he's gone out to kill his man) and he hears the voice of
Herakles talking to him about fear and immortality. Um, I think I can even
do that from memory: "Do not think that others will die, not you; Man's
immortality is not to live forever, for that wish is born of fear. Each
moment free from fear makes a man immortal." Yeah! Loud cheers!
:o)
Ming
eft...@attglobal.net
>
>eft...@attglobal.net wrote:
>> You might want to look for Gillian Bradshaw's new book: The Sand Reckoner with an
>> eye to adding it to the list. It's about young Archimedes during the first seige of Syracuse.
snip
>Elaine - Thanks!
You're welcome!
>I know Pressfield has out a new one, too, just
>published on Alkibiades.
title? I haven't read any novel more current that Sutcliff's on Akibiades.
>I haven't read it yet. I thought he did okay
>with GATES OF FIRE. Some nitpicks, but overall, it was worth the money.
>:) I'll have to look for the Bradshaw. I'ver read HORSES OF HEAVEN (or
>rather, I tried; even though I'm an Alex historian, I found it deadly
>dull),
Yep. That was one of hers I didn't like. Not only dull, but characters who needed
their heads knocked together. The other was _Imperial Purple_. Her others have
always been at least somewhat interesting, and _Isle of Ghosts_ (came out
last year, IIRC) was quite good. Coming after a several year period of no books
from her, and the last two not being interesting while their predecessors read
progressively more cool in tone, it read like she'd lost her voice, and warmth
and found it again with Isle. I have no idea if that's so, that's just how
it struck me.
>and I liked the one about Alexandria (title escapes me).
Beacon at Alexandria.
Have you read _Bear-Keeper's Daughter_? I didn't think I liked it when I first
read it - that coolness was well to the fore so I didn't think I cared about the
characters - but they lingered with me a long time.
>But
>otherwise, the only book of Bradshaw's I really *liked* was her first
>one, HAWK OF MAY, which is actually historical fantasy.
It's wonderful, isn't it? First books are often special. Did you read the others
in that trilogy? I'm quite fond of the second: _Kingdom of Summer_, I think it's
the narrator's voice, so down to earth as he goes through all sorts of upheavals.
#3 didn't do nearly as much for me, and I'm blanking on the title, anyway.
>Her prose is
>beautiful, but a little...cool? I can't explain it, but I just haven't
>found myself interested in the characters as I should be. Maybe that's
>just me. But I'll look for the new one. I've always found Archimedes
>fascinating, and the Hellenistic age, as well.
I didn't know much about Archimedes' life, and her take on him as a young man
was fascinating.
Elaine
Kay
...
Ming wrote:
> S
>
> p
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> i
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>
> had had Plato as a teacher. I read it that Renault is saying that
> Alexander's life might have been less tragic, and Plato might have had his
> philosopher king, if only the two had met.
Remember though--Alexander DID have Aristotle as a tutor, and Aristotle
was a student of Plato. In the end, they disagreed on certain matters,
but frankly, given what I know of the philosophies of both men, I
suspect Aristotle was better-suited to Alexander than Plato, at least,
Plato in his latter days. The philosopher who might have been *best*
able to handle Alexander, imo, would have been Sokrates (although
Sokrates didn't have much luck with Alcibiades, it's true....).
> "Do not think that others will die, not you; Man's
> immortality is not to live forever, for that wish is born of fear. Each
> moment free from fear makes a man immortal." Yeah! Loud cheers!
It's such a wonderfully *Greek* sentiment, and it's lines like this
which make Renault such a fine author of historical fiction on Greece.
Whatever detail errors she may make (and most of those are as much a
matter of the passage of time as anything), she understands how the
Greeks *think*. And that's the true mark of a fine writer of historical
fiction, imo.
(For all that, FIRE FROM HEAVEN isn't my favorite of her books, though.)
Kay
> title? I haven't read any novel more current that Sutcliff's on Akibiades.
TIDES OF WAR, just released I think. Steven Pressfield. If you read
Sutcliff on Alkibiades, did you also read Peter Green's ACHILLES HIS
ARMOR? Green's a classicist (his 2 best-known non-fiction works are
ALEXANDER OF MACEDON and FROM ALEXANDER TO ACTIUM.)
> Her others have
> always been at least somewhat interesting, and _Isle of Ghosts_ (came out
> last year, IIRC) was quite good. Coming after a several year period of no books
> from her, and the last two not being interesting while their predecessors read
> progressively more cool in tone, it read like she'd lost her voice, and warmth
> and found it again with Isle. I have no idea if that's so, that's just how
> it struck me.
Quite possibly. Authors can hit a dry spot, and sometimes they're more
attached to one story than to another. I like Gillian's general writing
ability a lot, so I'll have to look up these latest two from her.
> Have you read _Bear-Keeper's Daughter_? I didn't think I liked it when I first
> read it - that coolness was well to the fore so I didn't think I cared about the
> characters - but they lingered with me a long time.
I started it and put it down, never picked it up again.
> It's wonderful, isn't it? First books are often special. Did you read the others
> in that trilogy? I'm quite fond of the second: _Kingdom of Summer_, I think it's
> the narrator's voice, so down to earth as he goes through all sorts of upheavals.
> #3 didn't do nearly as much for me, and I'm blanking on the title, anyway.
Yes, I read all three, but remember the first as the best (to me). :)
Monique Reed
shelf for a yearly re-read.
M. Reed
dltjxx
>>that made me cry.
>
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[snip]
>And he thinks that Alexander will wander over the world
>looking for what Plato might have given him.
>And then he goes out to the Academy and sits by Plato's tomb. He
>pulls off the bracelet that Alexander gave him and sets it on the
>tomb. Beautiful!
Agreed. Another stunning moment.
>Especially remembering how when Alexander first gave the bracelet
>to Niko, the gold was warm from Alexander wearing it a second
>before; the warmth spread through Niko. He never takes it off
>until he gets out to Plato's tomb, where he removes it and puts
>it on the marble, which is warm from the sun, "...as if I laid
>a hand in a hand." And there I am, sobbing!
>This is what got me, and thinking of what Alexander might have
>become if he had had Plato as a teacher.
That's what that scene had me thinking, too.
>I read it that Renault is saying that Alexander's life might have
>been less tragic, and Plato might have had his philosopher king,
>if only the two had met.
IIRC, she has that in The Nature of Alexander as well.
>The last line is:
>"No one will ever make a tragedy- and that is as well, for one
>could not bear it- whose grief is that the principals never met."
Now, that one REALLY had me thinking. Possibly, we wouldn't
even exist.
>>Scenes I recall best: the performance of The Bacchae, Niko's
>>dialogue with the Mask. There are others, but those are the first
>>two which come to mind--along with the final scene from Fire from
>>Heaven, where the eagle soars upwards with the snake, and both
>>disappear. Stunning.
>Yes! That was brilliant.
Only superlatives apply here: stunning, brilliant, breath-taking,
etc. When reading the book, I actually SAW the performance.
>I also love the part right before Alexander's first fight
>(when he's gone out to kill his man) and he hears the voice of
>Herakles talking to him about fear and immortality.
Another stunner. And hair-raising.
>Um, I think I can even do that from memory: "Do not think that
>others will die, not you; Man's immortality is not to live
>forever, for that wish is born of fear. Each moment free from
fear makes a man immortal." Yeah! Loud cheers!
>:o)
>Ming
I think she's quoting a play here, but not sure. Anyway, loud,
loud cheers and praise! I love the way Renault can leave you with a
rational explanation for the seemingly irrational, yet convey
at the same time the sense of the supernatural. It was strongest,
I think, in Fire From Heaven and The King Must Die.
Other writers have tried to copy her. They can't.
Deborah