Chinese invasion of Rome.
Eric Oppen
In a previous article, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk (Gareth) says:
>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, weaire gavin allen wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> An intriguing contact that may have occurred between Rome and China
>> is the following. Crassus' defeated legionaries, when they were taken
>> prisoner by Parthia, were sent to the eastern part of the Parthian kingdom
>> (more-or-less where Afghanistan is, I think). Chinese records of the
>> same period (mid-1st century B.C.) describe an encounter with some
>> strange mercenaries in the service of one of the northern nomad kings who
>> sound remarkably like Romans as far as equipment and construction skills
>> go. Some scholars have speculated that some of Crassus' men may have
>> broken out and headed east, for lack of anywhere else.
>
>> Gavin Weaire.
>>
>>
>There was a childrens adventure-type novel, which I read years ago based
>around that premise. It was called "The Legion of the White Tiger", or
>somthing like that. I think it was written by James somthing-or-other.
>
> Gareth.
I think there was another book along these lines, called something like
_The Lost Legion_ In it, the crazy emperor Caligula sends a legion
marching East as far as it'll go.
Paul J Hollander
In article <4m77ee$d...@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>,
The Last Legion, by H. Warner Munn. Caligula sends a legion marching
east. Excuse is to find the descendents of Crassus' legionairres. Real
reason was to get rid of the legion commander, who is too good a general
and who may be a descendent of Julius Caesar. Good read.
Harry Turtledove wrote _Ranks of Bronze_, about Crassus' legionaires.
The Parthians sold most of them to extraterrestrials. The XTees use
them as mercenaries on low technology worlds.
Paul Hollander phol...@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
Robert A. Woodward
In article <4m77ee$d...@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cc...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(Eric Oppen) wrote:
> In a previous article, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk (Gareth) says:
>
> >On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, weaire gavin allen wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> An intriguing contact that may have occurred between Rome and China
> >> is the following. Crassus' defeated legionaries, when they were taken
> >> prisoner by Parthia, were sent to the eastern part of the Parthian kingdom
> >> (more-or-less where Afghanistan is, I think). Chinese records of the
> >> same period (mid-1st century B.C.) describe an encounter with some
> >> strange mercenaries in the service of one of the northern nomad kings who
> >> sound remarkably like Romans as far as equipment and construction skills
> >> go. Some scholars have speculated that some of Crassus' men may have
> >> broken out and headed east, for lack of anywhere else.
> >
> >> Gavin Weaire.
> >>
> >>
> >There was a childrens adventure-type novel, which I read years ago based
> >around that premise. It was called "The Legion of the White Tiger", or
> >somthing like that. I think it was written by James somthing-or-other.
> >
> > Gareth.
>
> I think there was another book along these lines, called something like
> _The Lost Legion_ In it, the crazy emperor Caligula sends a legion
> marching East as far as it'll go.
_The Lost Legion_ by H. Warner Munn (1980). The remanants of that legion
managed to reach the borders of China, where they encountered descendents
of some of Crassus's legionaries.
Robert A. Woodward
In article <4m8dos$c...@news.iastate.edu>, phol...@iastate.edu (Paul J
Hollander) wrote:
> In article <4m77ee$d...@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>,
> Eric Oppen <cc...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
> >
> >In a previous article, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk (Gareth) says:
> >
> >>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, weaire gavin allen wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> An intriguing contact that may have occurred between Rome and China
> >>> is the following. Crassus' defeated legionaries, when they were taken
> >>> prisoner by Parthia, were sent to the eastern part of the Parthian
kingdom
> >>> (more-or-less where Afghanistan is, I think). Chinese records of the
> >>> same period (mid-1st century B.C.) describe an encounter with some
> >>> strange mercenaries in the service of one of the northern nomad kings who
> >>> sound remarkably like Romans as far as equipment and construction skills
> >>> go. Some scholars have speculated that some of Crassus' men may have
> >>> broken out and headed east, for lack of anywhere else.
<snip>
> Harry Turtledove wrote _Ranks of Bronze_, about Crassus' legionaires.
> The Parthians sold most of them to extraterrestrials. The XTees use
> them as mercenaries on low technology worlds.
Not Harry Turtledove, David Drake.
Matt Hickman
In <4m8dos$c...@news.iastate.edu>, phol...@iastate.edu (Paul J Hollander) writes:
>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, weaire gavin allen wrote:
>>>
>>>> An intriguing contact that may have occurred between Rome and China
>>>> is the following. Crassus' defeated legionaries, when they were taken
>>>> prisoner by Parthia, were sent to the eastern part of the Parthian kingdom
>
>The Parthians sold most of them to extraterrestrials. The XTees use
>them as mercenaries on low technology worlds.
IIRC, it was David Drake who wrote _Ranks of Bronze_. An enjoyable
read, I wish he would get over his snit and write a sequel.
Matt Hickman bh...@chevron.com TANSTAAFL!
OS/2 Systems Specialist, Chevron Information Technologies Co.
Despite the crepehangers, romaniticists, and anti-intellectuals,
the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying
itself to environment, makes it better.
Robert A. Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
_The Door Into Summer_ 1956
RonHanks
cc...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) wrote:
>
>In a previous article, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk (Gareth) says:
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An intriguing contact that may have occurred between Rome and China
>>> is the following. Crassus' defeated legionaries, when they were taken
>>> prisoner by Parthia, were sent to the eastern part of the Parthian kingdom
>>> same period (mid-1st century B.C.) describe an encounter with some
>>> strange mercenaries in the service of one of the northern nomad kings who
>>> sound remarkably like Romans as far as equipment and construction skills
>>> go. Some scholars have speculated that some of Crassus' men may have
>>> broken out and headed east, for lack of anywhere else.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>There was a childrens adventure-type novel, which I read years ago based
>>around that premise. It was called "The Legion of the White Tiger", or
>>somthing like that. I think it was written by James somthing-or-other.
>>
>> Gareth.
>
>I think there was another book along these lines, called something like
>_The Lost Legion_ In it, the crazy emperor Caligula sends a legion
>marching East as far as it'll go.
Another book is a recent collaboration between Andre Norton and Susan
Schwartz (read Susan wrote it) called "Empire of The Eagle."
regards
Ron Hanks
John Dierdorf
In <4mikmo$2...@news.ios.com>, RonHanks <kuk...@haven.ios.com> writes:
>cc...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) wrote:
>>
>>In a previous article, G.J.M...@durham.ac.uk (Gareth) says:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, weaire gavin allen wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An intriguing contact that may have occurred between Rome and China
>>>> is the following. Crassus' defeated legionaries, when they were taken
>>>> prisoner by Parthia, were sent to the eastern part of the Parthian kingdom
>>>> (more-or-less where Afghanistan is, I think). Chinese records of the
>>>> same period (mid-1st century B.C.) describe an encounter with some
>>>> strange mercenaries in the service of one of the northern nomad kings who
>>>> sound remarkably like Romans as far as equipment and construction skills
>>>> go. Some scholars have speculated that some of Crassus' men may have
>>>> broken out and headed east, for lack of anywhere else.
Years ago I wrote a long letter to Cecelia Holland trying to convince her to write a
novel about a man I consider one of the most fascinating figures of history.
The Man Who Destroyed the Roman Empire, namely Pan Ch'ao.
He was the Han Empire's proconsul in Central Asia for his whole adult life in the
late first century AD, and his son followed him in that position. He broke the
military power of the Huns (the Hsiung-Nu) by essentially remaking the Chinese
army to use steppe warfare methods, and by being just as barbaric as the
barbarians.
Previously the Huns had made a living either raiding across the Wall or being
paid not to. In REALLY simple terms Pan Ch'ao convinced the Huns there
must be easier pickings to the west; they shoved the Ostrogoths who shoved
the Visigoths who... Net result was that three hundred years later there were a
million people in Chang-An and wolves in the streets of Rome. Pan Chao
pushed the Chinese empire all the way to the east bank of the Caspian - the
greatest extent of China in all its history - so it was one of his patrols that might
have encountered the Romans.
What makes him so intriguing is that this military genius was the twin brother
of Pan Ku, who initiated the Chinese tradition of each dynasty creating a more or less
objective history of its predecessor and is regarded as the greatest historian in
Chinese history, which is saying something. In fact, after Pan Ku's death, his history
was completed by their sister, Pan Chao, who one book describes as the
"outstanding female intellectual of early Chinese history," the tutor of two empresses.
I have this image of Pan Ch'ao sitting in his tent somewhere in the steppe and taking
time during his campaign to read his brother and sister's latest volume, or to compose
a poem in their honor.
I'm fascinated by the conflict between his training as a civilized, cultured intellectual
(their father was a court official and minor historian) and the sense of duty that led
him to spend his life in danger and discomfort, far from friends and family, to protect
an empire of people who didn't know he existed and couldn't care less.
Of course history is FULL of incongruous images -- how about Narses, one of
Justinian's trusted palace eunuchs, being sent to Italy to relieve Belisarius -
another man on the list of the top ten generals of all time - and winning a
victory over the Visigoths at age 90. Or Justinian's Theodora, who rose from child
prostitute to Empress. Or the Han emperor himself -- an illiterate peasant under
a death sentence.
Anyway, Ms Holland hasn't written the book yet, which aggravates me.
--
=======================
John Dierdorf (dier...@io.com)
=======================
weaire gavin allen
On 7 May 1996, John Dierdorf wrote:
>
> Previously the Huns had made a living either raiding across the Wall or being
> paid not to. In REALLY simple terms Pan Ch'ao convinced the Huns there
> must be easier pickings to the west; they shoved the Ostrogoths who shoved
> the Visigoths who... Net result was that three hundred years later there were a
> million people in Chang-An and wolves in the streets of Rome.
> John Dierdorf (dier...@io.com)
I think that that this has to be a little oversimplified.
There's no doubt that it was the Huns pushing the Avars, Goths etc. that
caused the barbarian invasions, but the Hsiung-nu that are contemporary
with Pan Chao probably didn't push the Visigoths and Ostrogoths, because
those entities didn't exist yet; the big Germanic tribal agglomerations
are formed rather later (from the third century on, I believe, although
our sources only give us a very sketchy picture of the process). Late
Roman historians are also a lot less sure about identifying the Hsiung-nu
with the Hunni of western history than they used to be. In any case,
three hundred years is a long time; we know so little about what went on
among the steppe tribes that I'm reluctant to assume that there was
enough policy continuity for there to be a direct link between Pan Chao's
advice centuries earlier and what happened in the fourth century. After
all, steppe tribes had invaded the lands to the west and south of the
steppe before this (the Parni/Parthians) and were to keep doing so right
through the Middle Ages.
That being said, I'm glad to hear something solid about Pan
Ch'ao, who does sound like a fascinating person. From what you say, he
was almost on the borders of the Parthian empire. Do you know what his
relations with that kingdom were like?
John A. Durand
In article <4md4mr$2f...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, bh...@chevron.com (Matt
Hickman) wrote:
>
>
>
> IIRC, it was David Drake who wrote _Ranks of Bronze_. An enjoyable
> read, I wish he would get over his snit and write a sequel.
If I remember the book correctly, they thought they were being used as
mercenaries but discovered that the battles were entertainment for the
ET's.
They weren't too happy about it.
>
>
BoxHill
John, this is a fascinating story, and a subject which seems right up
Cecilia Holland's alley. I would certainly love to read the book--in fact,
I can imagine it quite vividly.
Can you tell me from what sources you learned about Pan Chao? I'm afraid
that I'm completely ignorant of the subject, but I'd like to explore it.
Janet
//Dear Artemesia! Poetry's a snare:
//Bedlam has many Mansions: have a care:
//Your Muse diverts you, makes the Reader sad:
//You think your self inspir'd; He thinks you mad.
John Dierdorf
In <4mooe5$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, box...@aol.com (BoxHill) writes:
>John, this is a fascinating story, and a subject which seems right up
>Cecilia Holland's alley. I would certainly love to read the book--in fact,
>I can imagine it quite vividly.
So can I -- unfortunately I can't write my way out of a paper bag. I freely
make the subject available to one and all, no royalties. <grin>
>Can you tell me from what sources you learned about Pan Chao? I'm afraid
>that I'm completely ignorant of the subject, but I'd like to explore it.
Two books I have here at home: Rene Grousset's THE EMPIRE OF THE
STEPPES (1970 in English, but actually published in 1939) is old but
accurate as far as I know, at least in this area. A university library might be
able to track down one of his references: biographies of Pan Ch'ao and
Pan Yung translated from the Chinese as "Trois generaux chinois de la
dynastie des Han" (1906), if French happens to be your thing. The relationship
between Pan Ch'ao and his siblings is in CHINA'S IMPERIAL PAST, by Hucker
(1975). I'd imagine any general history of early China will mention the whole family
in both the military and cultural chapters.
By the way, Hucker's book says that Pan Ch'ao sent a reconnoitering patrol
southwest from the Caspian which hit either the Black Sea or the Persian Gulf
before turning back.
Answering another question about the Parthians, as far as I know they pretty
well stuck to south of the Kara-Kum desert (i.e., in modern Iran.) The silk road
was under Han control all the way from the border of Parthia to China proper --
about two thousand miles, but I don't think the Chinese made any efforts to
penetrate down into Parthia or Bactria (Iran and Afghanistan, more or less.)
Rick Heli
In article <4mpj4a$m...@nntp-1.io.com> dier...@io.com (John Dierdorf) writes:
>Answering another question about the Parthians, as far as I know they pretty
>well stuck to south of the Kara-Kum desert (i.e., in modern Iran.) The silk
>road
>was under Han control all the way from the border of Parthia to China proper --
>about two thousand miles, but I don't think the Chinese made any efforts to
>penetrate down into Parthia or Bactria (Iran and Afghanistan, more or less.)
I'm not sure what this means. I thought that the silk road west of the Tarim
Basin and east of Parthia was controlled by the Kushans?
Joseph Askew
dier...@io.com (John Dierdorf) writes:
>Years ago I wrote a long letter to Cecelia Holland trying to convince her to write a
>novel about a man I consider one of the most fascinating figures of history.
>The Man Who Destroyed the Roman Empire, namely Pan Ch'ao.
>He was the Han Empire's proconsul in Central Asia for his whole adult life in the
>late first century AD, and his son followed him in that position. He broke the
>military power of the Huns (the Hsiung-Nu) by essentially remaking the Chinese
>army to use steppe warfare methods, and by being just as barbaric as the
>barbarians.
Well there are several problems with this. First is that there is'
no rational reason to think that the Xiongnu have anything to do
with the Huns. Indeed the only similarity is one of name which
disappears when you write "Hsiungnu" in PinYin. There is a Sogdian
reference to the Southern Xiongnu which could refer to Huns but
it is doubtful and too late anyway. Second the Chinese did not try
to fight the Xiongnu the Xiongnu way. They did try to get a reliable
source of horses and so became a more cavalry oriented army but not
much more. Nor did his son follow him in his position. Ban Chao was
appointed Protector General of the Western Regions in early 92, was
recalled in 102 and died a month after that. In 107 the position was
abolished. Also this account ignores the years of Chinese work that
was put in to break the power of the Xiongnu. The one recorded attempt
at beating the Xiongnu at their own game was recorded for 307 BC when
Wu-ling King of Zhao issued orders to dress like the Xiongnu and take
up horse riding and archery practise. However the main break with them
occurred in 134 BC when Han Wudi decided that their demands were too
excessive. In the early years of the Later Han the Chinese managed
to arrange a split between the Northern and the Southern Xiongnu
around 60 BC. The Southern kingdom became a tributary of the Han
and it was with their help and that of other surrounding barbarians
that the Chinese totally destroyed the Northern Xiongnu.
B
>Previously the Huns had made a living either raiding across the Wall or being
>paid not to. In REALLY simple terms Pan Ch'ao convinced the Huns there
>must be easier pickings to the west; they shoved the Ostrogoths who shoved
>the Visigoths who...
Well not really. Ban Chao was instrumental in pursuing a policy
of military settlements in the Gansu corridor and what is now
Xinjiang as well as a system of alliances against the Northern
Xiongnu. But all this was old policy and did not reflect anything
new.
>Net result was that three hundred years later there were a
>million people in Chang-An and wolves in the streets of Rome. Pan Chao
>pushed the Chinese empire all the way to the east bank of the Caspian - the
>greatest extent of China in all its history \i
This wasn't Ban Chao but the explorer Zhang Qian who commanded two
expeditions into Central Asia to find allies against the Xiongnu.
The first in 139 BC and then in 115 BC. A bit early for Ban Chao.
>- so it was one of his patrols that might
>have encountered the Romans.
Or not. AS the case might be.
>What makes him so intriguing is that this military genius was the twin brother
>of Pan Ku, who initiated the Chinese tradition of each dynasty creating a more or less
>objective history of its predecessor and is regarded as the greatest historian in
>
>Chinese history, which is saying something.
A little harsh on Sima Qian of course. Nor would most people
describe the official histories as objective. That was the
general intention but they also continued a strong moralising
trend until the end of the Qing. Still today Taiwan and the
Mainland fight over interpretation.
> In fact, after Pan Ku's death, his history
>was completed by their sister, Pan Chao, who one book describes as the
>"outstanding female intellectual of early Chinese history," the tutor of two empresses.
There wasn't exactly a lot of competition for the position of
outstanding female intellectual.
>I have this image of Pan Ch'ao sitting in his tent somewhere in the steppe and taking
>time during his campaign to read his brother and sister's latest volume, or to compose
>a poem in their honor.
Well Ban Chao probably didn't get out that much.
>I'm fascinated by the conflict between his training as a civilized, cultured intellectual
>(their father was a court official and minor historian) and the sense of duty that led
>him to spend his life in danger and discomfort, far from friends and family, to protect
>an empire of people who didn't know he existed and couldn't care less.
The Emperor sure as hell knew he existed. Who else counted?
>Or the Han emperor himself -- an illiterate peasant under
>a death sentence.
Well the threat of a death sentence at any rate.
>Anyway, Ms Holland hasn't written the book yet, which aggravates me.
For some reason it does not aggravate me. Besides the great
unwashed public still hasn't got used to Asian men in the
media. Unless they are drug crazed smack peddlers, fanatical
VC or homosexuals. They aren't likely to buy thelife of Ban Chao.
Joseph
H.J. Tsai
jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>dier...@io.com (John Dierdorf) writes:
>>Years ago I wrote a long letter to Cecelia Holland trying to convince her to write a
>>novel about a man I consider one of the most fascinating figures of history.
>>The Man Who Destroyed the Roman Empire, namely Pan Ch'ao.
>>He was the Han Empire's proconsul in Central Asia for his whole adult life in the
>>late first century AD, and his son followed him in that position. He broke the
>>military power of the Huns (the Hsiung-Nu) by essentially remaking the Chinese
>>army to use steppe warfare methods, and by being just as barbaric as the
>>barbarians.
>Well there are several problems with this. First is that there is'
>no rational reason to think that the Xiongnu have anything to do
>with the Huns. Indeed the only similarity is one of name which
>disappears when you write "Hsiungnu" in PinYin. There is a Sogdian
The use of the letter X to represent modern Chinese pronunciation
says nothing whatever about the ancient sound, which was not a
sibilant but a voiceless gutteral, in other words very similar to
our letter H. Some otherwise very rational scholars have
entertained the idea that there might be a connection between the
Hsiung-nu and the Huns, but no one has produced convincing evidence.
[much interested stuff deleted]
>>Anyway, Ms Holland hasn't written the book yet, which aggravates me.
>For some reason it does not aggravate me. Besides the great
>unwashed public still hasn't got used to Asian men in the
>media. Unless they are drug crazed smack peddlers, fanatical
>VC or homosexuals. They aren't likely to buy thelife of Ban Chao.
As crazy as it may sound, Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan are changing
that. And some recent good movies like Eat Drink Man Woman directed
by Ang Lee are also changing that view. As for buying the life
of Pan Ch'ao, a well-written book about a fascinating place and
time, and intriguing characters should find a market.
Cheers, K'ai
Joseph Askew
hjt...@shellx.best.com (H.J. Tsai) writes:
>>Well there are several problems with this. First is that there is'
>>no rational reason to think that the Xiongnu have anything to do
>>with the Huns. Indeed the only similarity is one of name which
>>disappears when you write "Hsiungnu" in PinYin. There is a Sogdian
>The use of the letter X to represent modern Chinese pronunciation
>says nothing whatever about the ancient sound, which was not a
>sibilant but a voiceless gutteral, in other words very similar to
>our letter H.
But the vast majority of scholars who have put forward this
theory have not been Chinese speakers let alone speakers of
Han dynasty Chinese. Indeed I know of no Chinese speaking
scholars who think this. Both the Cambridge History of Inner
Asia and the Cambridge History of China, the volume on the
Han dynasty whichever number it is, have chapters on the Han
and the Xiongnu written by a native Chinese speaker and he
doesn't buy it. Nor does the guy who writes the chapter on
the Huns.
>Some otherwise very rational scholars have
>entertained the idea that there might be a connection between the
>Hsiung-nu and the Huns, but no one has produced convincing evidence.
Name three.
No harm in entertaining an idea. The problem is the total lack
of evidence. Indeed there are competant scholars (to put it no
stronger) who have analysed what evidence there is, mostly names
of people and places as represented by the Chinese, and say that
it is not likely that the Xiongnu have anything to do with the
Huns. It is a very marginal idea at best.
>>For some reason it does not aggravate me. Besides the great
>>unwashed public still hasn't got used to Asian men in the
>>media. Unless they are drug crazed smack peddlers, fanatical
>>VC or homosexuals. They aren't likely to buy thelife of Ban Chao.
>As crazy as it may sound, Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan are changing
>that.
Oh didn't I mention Bruce Lee. Damn. Still a "ghetto" role as
it were. I'm waiting for the day the American public will
accept an Asian male as a leading role in a love story. Sleepless
in Vancouver perhaps.
>And some recent good movies like Eat Drink Man Woman directed
>by Ang Lee are also changing that view. As for buying the life
>of Pan Ch'ao, a well-written book about a fascinating place and
>time, and intriguing characters should find a market.
Yet you will notice that EDMW was mostly about four women of
whom the American public is more accepting. Consider the other
Chinese movies that have had reasonably widespread screenings,
Farewell My Concubine and the Wedding Banquet. Imagine the
radical idea of showing Chinese men as gay. Amazing.
Joseph
Tim Edwards
On 13 May 96 07:19:45 GMT, jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
wrote:
>it were. I'm waiting for the day the American public will
>accept an Asian male as a leading role in a love story. Sleepless
>in Vancouver perhaps.
"Map of the Human Heart" and "The Bruce Lee Story"
both starring Jason Scott Lee.
Tim Edwards 7, rue Albert I
tedw...@DialUp.FranceNet.fr 45000 Orleans, France
John Dierdorf
In <31978ab6...@sophie.noc.lexmark.com>, tedw...@DialUp.FranceNet.fr (Tim Edwards) writes:
>On 13 May 96 07:19:45 GMT, jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
>wrote:
>
>
>>it were. I'm waiting for the day the American public will
>>accept an Asian male as a leading role in a love story. Sleepless
>>in Vancouver perhaps.
>"Map of the Human Heart" and "The Bruce Lee Story"
>both starring Jason Scott Lee.
Not to mention "The Lover" -- high on the list of the most erotic movies
of all time. Not only is the male lead Chinese, the female (in the story) is
French and fourteen.
H.J. Tsai
jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>hjt...@shellx.best.com (H.J. Tsai) writes:
>>>Well there are several problems with this. First is that there is'
>>>no rational reason to think that the Xiongnu have anything to do
>>>with the Huns. Indeed the only similarity is one of name which
>>>disappears when you write "Hsiungnu" in PinYin. There is a Sogdian
>>The use of the letter X to represent modern Chinese pronunciation
>>says nothing whatever about the ancient sound, which was not a
>>sibilant but a voiceless gutteral, in other words very similar to
>>our letter H.
>But the vast majority of scholars who have put forward this
>theory have not been Chinese speakers let alone speakers of
>Han dynasty Chinese. Indeed I know of no Chinese speaking
>scholars who think this. Both the Cambridge History of Inner
>Asia and the Cambridge History of China, the volume on the
>Han dynasty whichever number it is, have chapters on the Han
>and the Xiongnu written by a native Chinese speaker and he
>doesn't buy it. Nor does the guy who writes the chapter on
>the Huns.
Do you mean the theory that in Han China the initial of the
word xiong/hsiung was a voiceless gutteral, or that the Hsiung-nu
and the Huns are somehow related? Similarities in words from
different languages in no way prove contact or connections.
The Chinese say ma-ma and ba-ba for Mama and Papa. This proves
nothing at all. I was simply responding to your use of
phonetic dissimilarity to disprove a connection between the
ancient Xiongnu/Hsing-nu and the Huns.
>>entertained the idea that there might be a connection between the
>>Hsiung-nu and the Huns, but no one has produced convincing evidence.
>Name three.
>No harm in entertaining an idea. The problem is the total lack
>of evidence. Indeed there are competant scholars (to put it no
>stronger) who have analysed what evidence there is, mostly names
>of people and places as represented by the Chinese, and say that
>it is not likely that the Xiongnu have anything to do with the
>Huns. It is a very marginal idea at best.
The origins of the Huns is an extremely complicated issue, to be
looked at in terms of art, language, race, social life, etc. No
one now accepts the equation Hsiung-nu = Huns. For names of those
who did, check out Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen's The World of the Huns.
He goes into great detail on this very problem. He did speak
Chinese, in fact he was a most remarkable man, and as part of his
investigations, he went to Central Asia and lived with nomads for
a while. That is only an example of the kind of painstaking care
and thoroughness he applied to the *problem* of the Huns. There
are continuities that extend from the Hsiung-nu culture to that of
the Huns, but this does not mean that Hsiung-nu = Huns. It is not
so simple a thing as to say yes, they are, or no they aren't.
>>>For some reason it does not aggravate me. Besides the great
>>>unwashed public still hasn't got used to Asian men in the
>>>media. Unless they are drug crazed smack peddlers, fanatical
>>>VC or homosexuals. They aren't likely to buy thelife of Ban Chao.
>>As crazy as it may sound, Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan are changing
>>that.
>Oh didn't I mention Bruce Lee. Damn. Still a "ghetto" role as
>it were. I'm waiting for the day the American public will
>accept an Asian male as a leading role in a love story.
I think someone else mentioned The Lover.
>>And some recent good movies like Eat Drink Man Woman directed
>>by Ang Lee are also changing that view. As for buying the life
>>of Pan Ch'ao, a well-written book about a fascinating place and
>>time, and intriguing characters should find a market.
>Yet you will notice that EDMW was mostly about four women of
>whom the American public is more accepting.
My husband is Chinese, and I am not, and I could tell you a lot
about what the American public does and does not accept, but this is
a group about historical fiction, and, to repeat myself, a well-
written book about Pan Ch'ao should find readers. If a novel about
Belisarius can find a publisher and readers, why not Pan Ch'ao? If
I were a writer I would try it myself.
As to whether or not the Xiongnu/Hsiung-nu and Huns are related,
unless the novel covers a lot of time, there is no need even to
consider the question.
>Joseph
Cheers, K'ai
V.S. Kumaraswamy
Distribution:
Lines: 33
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
John Dierdorf (dier...@io.com) wrote:
: In <31978ab6...@sophie.noc.lexmark.com>, tedw...@DialUp.FranceNet.fr (Tim Edwards) writes:
: >On 13 May 96 07:19:45 GMT, jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
: >wrote:
: >
: >
: >>it were. I'm waiting for the day the American public will
: >>accept an Asian male as a leading role in a love story. Sleepless
: >>in Vancouver perhaps.
: >"Map of the Human Heart" and "The Bruce Lee Story"
: >both starring Jason Scott Lee.
:
: Not to mention "The Lover" -- high on the list of the most erotic movies
: of all time. Not only is the male lead Chinese, the female (in the story) is
: French and fourteen.
Jane March is not FRENCH, she's BRITISH, from London. She was young (15 i
believe but could well be wrong) when she made 'The Lover'. A French
actrees was her body double for the explicit scenes in the movie.
Sagar
:
: --
: =======================
: John Dierdorf (dier...@io.com)
: =======================
:
--
I shall make thee king and thy name shall be sung in the vaults of
heaven for a thousand years
Joseph Askew
hjt...@shellx.best.com (H.J. Tsai) writes:
>>>>with the Huns. Indeed the only similarity is one of name which
>>>>disappears when you write "Hsiungnu" in PinYin. There is a Sogdian
>>But the vast majority of scholars who have put forward this
>>theory have not been Chinese speakers let alone speakers of
>>Han dynasty Chinese. Indeed I know of no Chinese speaking
>>scholars who think this. Both the Cambridge History of Inner
>>Asia and the Cambridge History of China, the volume on the
>>Han dynasty whichever number it is, have chapters on the Han
>>and the Xiongnu written by a native Chinese speaker and he
>>doesn't buy it. Nor does the guy who writes the chapter on
>>the Huns.
>Do you mean the theory that in Han China the initial of the
>word xiong/hsiung was a voiceless gutteral, or that the Hsiung-nu
>and the Huns are somehow related?
That the Xiongnu and Huns are somehow related.
>Similarities in words from
>different languages in no way prove contact or connections.
>The Chinese say ma-ma and ba-ba for Mama and Papa. This proves
>nothing at all.
Surely it does. That all languages have one common origin
for a start. At least it is strong evidence that they do.
Remember that Sanskrit, Latin and Greek were first linked
in just this way - common words that sound the same. Not
that I think Chinese is an IndoEuropean language!
>I was simply responding to your use of
>phonetic dissimilarity to disprove a connection between the
>ancient Xiongnu/Hsing-nu and the Huns.
Well no I didn't. I said it was the only evidence there was.
And it is pretty awful.
>>No harm in entertaining an idea. The problem is the total lack
>>of evidence. Indeed there are competant scholars (to put it no
>>stronger) who have analysed what evidence there is, mostly names
>>of people and places as represented by the Chinese, and say that
>>it is not likely that the Xiongnu have anything to do with the
>>Huns. It is a very marginal idea at best.
>The origins of the Huns is an extremely complicated issue, to be
>looked at in terms of art, language, race, social life, etc. No
I agree. Except that it is hard to analyse these issues when there
is so little good evidence. Neither the Xiongnu or the Huns wrote
much so there is no literature. You cannot even place their language
in a wider family. Even the Xiongnu left enough to guess that they
spoke a Turkic language.
>one now accepts the equation Hsiung-nu = Huns.
Unfortunately people still do.
>For names of those
>who did, check out Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen's The World of the Huns.
>He goes into great detail on this very problem. He did speak
>Chinese, in fact he was a most remarkable man, and as part of his
>investigations, he went to Central Asia and lived with nomads for
>a while.
That is pretty amazing. I haven't read it but I'll
keep an eye out for it.
>That is only an example of the kind of painstaking care
>and thoroughness he applied to the *problem* of the Huns. There
>are continuities that extend from the Hsiung-nu culture to that of
>the Huns, but this does not mean that Hsiung-nu = Huns. It is not
>so simple a thing as to say yes, they are, or no they aren't.
There are continuities between the Huns and virtually any
nomadic people. It is not a simple thing to say they are
or are not but it is easy to say there is no compelling
evidence that would lead anyone to think they are the same.
As nice as the story is it is a wild assumption to say
that Ban Chao destroyed the Roman Empire.
>>Oh didn't I mention Bruce Lee. Damn. Still a "ghetto" role as
>>it were. I'm waiting for the day the American public will
>>accept an Asian male as a leading role in a love story.
>I think someone else mentioned The Lover.
A movie all of three people might have watched. And French
too I believe. On top of that the sex was kinky. What can't
Chinese people have *normal* sex lives in American films?
>My husband is Chinese, and I am not, and I could tell you a lot
>about what the American public does and does not accept, but this is
>a group about historical fiction, and, to repeat myself, a well-
>written book about Pan Ch'ao should find readers. If a novel about
>Belisarius can find a publisher and readers, why not Pan Ch'ao? If
>I were a writer I would try it myself.
Well I know of no Chinese history-based book that has sold well.
Except for the obvious trash like James Clavell. For Belisarius
the public has a lot of backgrpound information and people tend
to forget he was less than Nordic. Hard to do that for a Chinese
person.
>As to whether or not the Xiongnu/Hsiung-nu and Huns are related,
>unless the novel covers a lot of time, there is no need even to
>consider the question.
I don't know. Could put a strapping great blue eyed stud puppy
come as Ambassador from Rome. That ought to sell a few copies.
Joseph
H.J. Tsai
jas...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>hjt...@shellx.best.com (H.J. Tsai) writes:
[snip]
>>For names of those
>>who did, check out Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen's The World of the Huns.
[snip]
>That is pretty amazing. I haven't read it but I'll
>keep an eye out for it.
Yes, do. It is terrific. It's out of print now, but can be
found in libraries and used book stores. I got my copy from
Moe's in Berkeley.
>>That is only an example of the kind of painstaking care
>>and thoroughness he applied to the *problem* of the Huns. There
>>are continuities that extend from the Hsiung-nu culture to that of
>>the Huns, but this does not mean that Hsiung-nu = Huns. It is not
>>so simple a thing as to say yes, they are, or no they aren't.
>There are continuities between the Huns and virtually any
>nomadic people. It is not a simple thing to say they are
Maenchen-Helfen points out some continuities that are quite
specific, but he does not ever say Hsiung-nu = Huns.
>or are not but it is easy to say there is no compelling
>evidence that would lead anyone to think they are the same.
>As nice as the story is it is a wild assumption to say
>that Ban Chao destroyed the Roman Empire.
Agreed.
[snip]
>Well I know of no Chinese history-based book that has sold well.
>Except for the obvious trash like James Clavell. For Belisarius
>the public has a lot of backgrpound information and people tend
>to forget he was less than Nordic. Hard to do that for a Chinese
>person.
>>As to whether or not the Xiongnu/Hsiung-nu and Huns are related,
>>unless the novel covers a lot of time, there is no need even to
>>consider the question.
>I don't know. Could put a strapping great blue eyed stud puppy
>come as Ambassador from Rome. That ought to sell a few copies.
Actually, just a Roman ambassador, regardless of eye color, might
make a good story. I played with the idea of a refugee from a
persecution in the Roman empire joining up with a trade caravan
going from Ephesus eastward and finally ending up in Tun-huang
and then Ch'ang-an, and then back again. The date was about
A.D. 80-90. There is no evidence that trade caravans made that
trip straight through, but I asked myself, what if some did? It's
not impossible, though as for the likelihood, who knows?
>Joseph
Cheers, Runa
Mike Bishop
In message <hjtsai.832519529@shellx> H.J. Tsai wrote:
[much cut]
> >I don't know. Could put a strapping great blue eyed stud puppy
> >come as Ambassador from Rome. That ought to sell a few copies.
>
> Actually, just a Roman ambassador, regardless of eye color, might
> make a good story. I played with the idea of a refugee from a
> persecution in the Roman empire joining up with a trade caravan
> going from Ephesus eastward and finally ending up in Tun-huang
> and then Ch'ang-an, and then back again. The date was about
> A.D. 80-90. There is no evidence that trade caravans made that
> trip straight through, but I asked myself, what if some did? It's
> not impossible, though as for the likelihood, who knows?
Well, according to a Chinese source, that would be a bit early. In AD 166
the *Hou Han shou* (chapter 88) recorded that the 'king An-tun [Marcus
Aurelius] of Ta-ch'in [Rome] sent an embassy' and noted that 'from that time
began direct trade relations with this country' (no reference to eye colour
appears to have been made:-)
This and much more on Sino-Roman relations (including Pan Ch'ao, one of
whose officers apparently *did* penetrate Parthia), and in fact with all
fringe peoples, can be found in N.H.H. Sitwell *The World the Romans Knew*
(London 1988 - note that I believe it appeared in soft covers in the UK
under a different title). As for the Roman-refugees-from-Carrhae-in-China
idea that set off this thread, if not exactly shot down in flames, it was at
least sent limping over the horizon with one engine burning a few years ago
(in *Exercitus*, the Newsbulletin of the British Roman re-enactment group
The Ermine Street Guard - volume 2 no.3, pp.38-9) by Duncan B. Campbell.
Still, that's hardly the point, is it? Just because Roman soldiers did not
wear leather armour and the bronze eagle found at Silchester was not a
legionary standard does not detract from *Eagle of the Ninth* still being a
good read, even for someone who makes a living out of the Romans.
Mike Bishop
--
o.o.o M.C. BISHOP
o:::o Writer, publisher, & archaeologist
===== mcbi...@arma.demon.co.uk
o:::o Braemar, Kirkgate, Chirnside, DUNS, Berwickshire, TD11 3XL, UK
o.o.o Tel: (+44) 1890 818197 Fax (+44) 1890 818197 Mobile (0831) 514180
john
mcbi...@arma.demon.co.uk (Mike Bishop) wrote:
>In message <hjtsai.832519529@shellx> H.J. Tsai wrote:
>[much cut]
>> >I don't know. Could put a strapping great blue eyed stud puppy
>> >come as Ambassador from Rome. That ought to sell a few copies.
>>
>Mike Bishop
In the Sikking, Robert Elegant's account of a hymalayan kingdom of
Kardamolm (and set in the first century BC) there is a description of
a trade caravan linking China and the middle east. The book which is
very old, describes a trade caravan between persia and china and was
lead by a "hiry man, a brahman, who ate special meats and covered his
head with a small cloth hat". The writer claims its one of the oldest
tracks of large scale commerce betweeen the classic world and the
kingdom of the middle. this proves (assuming the sikking is the old
abd accurate story R.E claims it to be) that china had more
connections to the classical world than anticipated.