Ulmus parvifolia or Zelkova serrata?
Deb Kennedy
bought a tree labeled "Zelkova Elm." No botanical name. Fell in love,
didn't ask questions. Should have asked, but I guessed that--given the
label--I might have got a wrong answer anyway. From book descriptions and
pictures, I think it is Ulmus parvifolia. But it _could_ be Zelkova
serrata.
I searched the archives and found an interesting discussion on the relative
merits of the trees, and references to previous posts about identification,
but nothing that helped.
Has anyone got a simple way to tell the difference? It may not make a great
deal of difference in the way I treat it, but I'd kind of like to know what
I'm growing. If it helps, the leaves on the tree I've got have slightly
more rounded serrations that seem to be consistent with the Chinese elm,
rather than the sharper serrations I've seen in pictures of Zelkovas.
Has anyone got better tips for identification? I'd appreciate any help.
Sincerely,
Deb Kennedy
********************************************************************************
+++++This list is supported, in part, by a contribution from Raymond Bland+++++
TO leave the list send SIGNOFF BONSAI to: LIST...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>>-->> Visit the IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://users.nbn.net/~herrfam/Index.html <<--<<
#COPYRIGHT for all messages is held by authors. Use with their permission only.#
Jim Lewis
a great
>deal of difference in the way I treat it, but I'd kind of like to
know what
>I'm growing. If it helps, the leaves on the tree I've got have
slightly
>more rounded serrations that seem to be consistent with the Chinese
elm,
>rather than the sharper serrations I've seen in pictures of Zelkovas.
>
From the Audubon Field Guide to North American (!) Trees: (*
indicates italics)
Zelkova:
"Leaves in *two rows:* 1 - 3.5 inches (2.5 - 9 cm) long, 3/4 - 1 3/4"
(2 - 4.5 cm) wide. *Ovate* or elliptical; *sharply sawtoothed;* with
*8-14 straight parallel veins* on each side of midvein; short stalked.
*Dark green* and *rough* above, paler and usually hairless beneath . .
."
Chinese elm:
"Leaves in *two rows;* 3/4 - 2" (2-5 cm) long, 3/8-3/4" (10-19 mm)
wide. Elliptical *saw- toothed; slightly thickened. Shiny dark
green* above, paler and hairy when youn and in vein angles beneath;
turning reddish or purplish in autumn . . ."
From the pictures, the teeth on the zelkova are MUCH coarser.
Jim Lewis -- Tallahassee, FL - jkl...@nettally.com
Okamibnsai
know what the story is but I can asume production people who label them don't
have a clue.
I'm sure you are also seeing Chinese elm. (3/8" leathery leaves). Some are
nice. Most have bad roots and are planted in very bad soil.
Brian
Ray Manning
fuzzy, kind of like velvet. Elms don't. Leaf size is hard to use as a
distinguishing factor, after all, these are bonsai.
- Ray
Ron Martin
Usually the Japanese Grey-bark elm. It's not actually an elm but is a very
close cousin.
A pretty tree any way , and can be treated just like any other elm
Ron Martin Tokonoma Bonsai
r...@tokonoma.com
Check out our Web Page www.tokonoma.com
News Letter @ www.bonsaicentral.com
Alan Walker
which also has rough, rather hairy, textured leaves (rough above; downy beneath). That
is, unless the zelkova truly has little hairs or cilia on its leaves. I have one tree
which I've been unsure of which is either Siberian elm (U.pumilla ) or zelkova.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA awbo...@iamerica.net
> The key I've always used is the hair on the leaves. Zelkova leaves feel
> fuzzy, kind of like velvet. Elms don't. Leaf size is hard to use as a
> distinguishing factor, after all, these are bonsai.
> Ray
Colin Lewis
Ulmus crassifolia,
> >which also has rough, rather hairy, textured leaves (rough above; downy
beneath). That
> >is, unless the zelkova truly has little hairs or cilia on its leaves. I
have one tree
> >which I've been unsure of which is either Siberian elm (U.pumilla ) or
zelkova.
> >Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA awbo...@iamerica.net
Zelkova leaves usually have a copper-coloured or bronze edge to them when
they emerge in spring - elms usually dont.
Alan's right about the "hair" test - many elms have rough hairy leaves.
Colin
email: colinlew...@btinternet.com
web site: http://www.btinternet.com/~colinlewis.bonsai
Ron Martin
>they emerge in spring - elms usually dont.
>Alan's right about the "hair" test - many elms have rough hairy leaves.
Sorry my computer burped this morning and I missed a lot of this string.
Wish I could have seen more of it cause the above does not sound right to
me.
Zelkovia have pale green leaves when they sprout at least mine do. Are we
talking about the zelkovia serrata .
And the only harry elm that I know of is the cedar elm.
Don't get me wrong I not saying that you don't know what you are talking
about. I just missed most of this. My computer is only up to half strength
and believe or not I can't even get to the archives. Sorry
Somebody let me know what is going on. Most of my elms are hairless and I
need to know if I need to get some help or not.
Ron Martin Tokonoma Bonsai
r...@tokonoma.com
Check out our Web Page www.tokonoma.com
News Letter @ www.bonsaicentral.com
********************************************************************************
Colin Lewis
> >Wish I could have seen more of it cause the above does not sound right to
> >me.
> >Zelkovia have pale green leaves when they sprout at least mine do. Are we
> >talking about the zelkovia serrata .
> >And the only harry elm that I know of is the cedar elm.
The leaves on my developing forest of z. serrata have copper-coloured
margins to the young leaves.
Hairy-leaved elms: U. procera (campestre), U.glabra, U. carpinifolia, U.
elegantissima, U. "Jaqueline Hillier", U. pendula, U. Hollandica, to name
but a few.....
Colin
email: colinlew...@btinternet.com
web site: http://www.btinternet.com/~colinlewis.bonsai
********************************************************************************
Ray Manning
The original post narrowed the selection of trees to the two in the subject.
As far as I know, the hair test works to tell them apart. I guess my post
was somewhat biased because I don't have many varieties of elms and these
two are the only ones I get confused at times. I didn't mean to imply that
Zelkova serrata is the only hairy elm.
- Ray
Alan Walker wrote in message <370522D6...@iamerica.net>...
>Ray: Your technique could deceive you if you run across a cedar elm, Ulmus
crassifolia,
>which also has rough, rather hairy, textured leaves (rough above; downy
beneath). That
>is, unless the zelkova truly has little hairs or cilia on its leaves. I
have one tree
>which I've been unsure of which is either Siberian elm (U.pumilla ) or
zelkova.
>Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA awbo...@iamerica.net
>
>> The key I've always used is the hair on the leaves. Zelkova leaves feel
>> fuzzy, kind of like velvet. Elms don't. Leaf size is hard to use as a
>> distinguishing factor, after all, these are bonsai.
>> Ray
>
>***************************************************************************
*****
Jim Lewis
carpinifolia, U.
>elegantissima, U. "Jaqueline Hillier", U. pendula, U. Hollandica, to
name
>but a few.....
>
>
And, in the U.S.: U. thomasi, U. rubra, and (sometimes) U. americana
Jim Lewis -- Tallahassee, FL - jkl...@nettally.com
********************************************************************************