Acer palmatum cultivars, air layer?
Kit
kawa, Nishiki gawa, and Aka shingitatsu sawa. (Is it
shingitatsu, shigitatsu, shingatatsu, or shigatatsu?
Different nurseries spell it differently.. Is Aka
shingitatsu sawa the red version of shingitatsu sawa?)
I ordered these grafts online from a nursery in
Oregon. It was a pretty good deal. They were only
$15 each. The only problem is that these were
obviously not grafted to be trained as bonsai. The
grafts are about 6" high and the root stocks are light
green while all of these cultivars have red barks,
making the trees very silly looking.
Can I air-layer all of them? I heard some cultivars
didn't have strong roots.
When would be the best time? Before or after the
leaves come out? Since I just transplanted them today
(without doing anything to the roots), should I wait
until next year?
The trunks are a bit smaller than a pencil. I'm
afraid the whole trunk would break if I peel off the
bark. :) Which air-layering method should I use? Does
the tighten-a-wire-around method take longer? It
seems kinder to the trees. After I tie a wire around
the trunk, do I have to make small cuts above the
wire?
hehehe.. a lot of questions.. :P
Thanks.
Kit
Amherst, MA Zone 5a
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Marty Haber
Hold on! You probably have 1 yr. grafts. Put them in the ground. Wait
until your secondary branches are pencil thick, then use them as
hardwood cuttings. That should take at least two years, possbly three.
To air layer now would be a disaster.
There is an old adage that goes:
Patiience is a virtue
Seldom found iwomen
And never in a man.
In bonsai, it appears that the opposite is true.
Marty Haber
Zone 7 - Just this side of Heaven, but a bit warmer
Ron Martin
>Oregon. It was a pretty good deal. They were only
>$15 each. The only problem is that these were
>obviously not grafted to be trained as bonsai. The
>grafts are about 6" high and the root stocks are light
>green while all of these cultivars have red barks,
>making the trees very silly looking.
First thing I would do is see if that nursery have a return policy.
Ron
Kevin Bailey
I believe that the correct name is A.p. ‘Aka Shigitatsu Sawa’.
The advice others gave was good. I'd certainly grow them on for a while.
Planting in the ground is the best option if you can provide the right
conditions. A spot protected from wind with some dappled shade, such as that
cast by a large tree with sparse canopy is ideal. They are descendants of
lower storey trees. A spot that remains evenly moist or can be regularly
watered is also important.
They can be fed while in the ground. If they like the spot you will be
rewarded with rapid growth and thickening trunks.
Give them a couple of years and you could then air layer just below the
graft union if you are concerned about inability to survive on their own
roots. Many can, some can't.
I tried the tourniquet method with maples and didn't have anywhere near the
success level that I've had with ring barking. Two of the three tourniquets
failed to issue any roots in a whole year. I've done about twenty ring
barked ones and they all rooted, apart from two that suffered from a fungal
rot.
As they will be larger in a couple of years you can try cuttings and air
layering branches to see if they will thrive on their own roots.
Hope this helps
Kev Bailey ke...@actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk
Web site http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/vocbsindex.htm
Saint Asaph, North Wales, UK - Zone 9
>Today I just recieved my first Japanese maples: Beni
>kawa, Nishiki gawa, and Aka shingitatsu sawa. (Is it
>shingitatsu, shigitatsu, shingatatsu, or shigatatsu?
>Different nurseries spell it differently.. Is Aka
>shingitatsu sawa the red version of shingitatsu sawa?)
>
>I ordered these grafts online from a nursery in
>Oregon. It was a pretty good deal. They were only
>$15 each. The only problem is that these were
>obviously not grafted to be trained as bonsai. The
>grafts are about 6" high and the root stocks are light
>green while all of these cultivars have red barks,
>making the trees very silly looking.
>
>Can I air-layer all of them? I heard some cultivars
>didn't have strong roots.
>
>When would be the best time? Before or after the
>leaves come out? Since I just transplanted them today
>(without doing anything to the roots), should I wait
>until next year?
>
>The trunks are a bit smaller than a pencil. I'm
>afraid the whole trunk would break if I peel off the
>bark. :) Which air-layering method should I use? Does
>the tighten-a-wire-around method take longer? It
>seems kinder to the trees. After I tie a wire around
>the trunk, do I have to make small cuts above the
>wire?
>
>
>hehehe.. a lot of questions.. :P
>Thanks.
>
>Kit
>Amherst, MA Zone 5a
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>***************************************************************************
*****
Herb Gustafson
>Today I just recieved my first Japanese maples: Beni
>kawa, Nishiki gawa, and Aka shingitatsu sawa. (Is it
>shingitatsu, shigitatsu, shingatatsu, or shigatatsu?
>Different nurseries spell it differently.. Is Aka
>shingitatsu sawa the red version of shingitatsu sawa?)
It is shigitatsu. There is no shingitatsu.
>
>I ordered these grafts online from a nursery in
>Oregon. It was a pretty good deal. They were only
>$15 each. The only problem is that these were
>obviously not grafted to be trained as bonsai. The
>grafts are about 6" high and the root stocks are light
>green while all of these cultivars have red barks,
>making the trees very silly looking.
Which is what you will normally get. I know of few growers who graft for
bonsai purposes.
>
>Can I air-layer all of them? I heard some cultivars
>didn't have strong roots.
Yes and no. You can air layer them just below the graft and have less green
trunk.
Still a graft mark but your lowest branches will be true to name. Or you
can air layer above the graft and get a weak plant. Or you can take
cuttings and get a weak plant. A little logic here; why do you suppose the
nursery grafted these plants? Just for the horticultural exercise? Do you
suppose that if these plants could grow on their own roots the propagator
would refuse to take cheap cuttings and prefer to make expensive, ugly
grafts? :)
>
>When would be the best time? Before or after the
>leaves come out? Since I just transplanted them today
>(without doing anything to the roots), should I wait
>until next year?
Three to five years from now.
>
>The trunks are a bit smaller than a pencil. I'm
>afraid the whole trunk would break if I peel off the
>bark. :) Which air-layering method should I use? Does
>the tighten-a-wire-around method take longer? It
>seems kinder to the trees. After I tie a wire around
>the trunk, do I have to make small cuts above the
>wire?
Wires take longer but the percentage of success is higher. I poke the area
above the wire with a needle and rub in rooting hormone, but it works
without. Don't know if it helps. It may be one of those feel-good things. :(
***************************************
Herb L. Gustafson Bonsai Author
Eugene, Oregon USA Sunset Zone 6
***************************************
Brent Walston
>At 02:17 AM 03/11/2000 -0800, Kit wrote:
>>Today I just recieved my first Japanese maples: Beni
>>kawa, Nishiki gawa, and Aka shingitatsu sawa.
The only problem is that these were
>>obviously not grafted to be trained as bonsai. The
>>grafts are about 6" high and the root stocks are light
>>green while all of these cultivars have red barks,
>>making the trees very silly looking.
>
>Which is what you will normally get. I know of few growers who graft for
>bonsai purposes.
>Or you
>can air layer above the graft and get a weak plant. Or you can take
>cuttings and get a weak plant. A little logic here; why do you suppose the
>nursery grafted these plants? Just for the horticultural exercise? Do you
>suppose that if these plants could grow on their own roots the propagator
>would refuse to take cheap cuttings and prefer to make expensive, ugly
>grafts? :)
>Herb L. Gustafson Bonsai Author
>Eugene, Oregon USA Sunset Zone 6
Herb
Sorry, I can't agree with you on this one. There are many, many cultivars
of Acer palmatum that can be grown successfully on their own roots.
Wright's nursery, before the owner retired two years ago, had been selling
cutting grown A.p. for fifty years. I have bought and grown these and also
have been growing my own cuttings for over a dozen years. I have ten year
old cutting grown 'Kiyohime' growing side by side with grafted ones. There
is virtually no difference. The same is true for 'Arakawa'. I haven't been
growing the other cork bark types as long, but all seem just fine on their
own roots. Wright's offered about fifty different cultivars when they were
in business.
I put this theory of 'weak roots' in the same category as other bonsai
myths. First, consider that the original parents of all of these cultivars
(except those that arose as sports) were chance seedlings or deliberate
crosses that resulted in new seedlings. In other words, the parent cultivar
was simply another Acer palmatum seedling growing on its _own roots_.
Why should propagating A.p. by cuttings result in a weaker root system than
any other species grown from cuttings? Air layers are essentially cuttings,
and A.p. are layered all the time. There are some cultivars that are
reluctant to root, such as most of the dissectums, but even one of them,
'Seiryu', grows just fine on its own roots.
I think the answer to why grafts dominate the A.p. cultivar field is that
it is not easy to grow them from cuttings commercially. Wright's was the
only nursery in the US of which I am aware that successfully pulled it off.
Cuttings are fraught with problems, mostly fungal in the first year. I have
been trying to successfully grow them for over ten years and only recently
put all the pieces of the puzzle together so that I really can do it
commercially. Believe me, grafting is easier, and results in a saleable
plant a year or two faster. That's the real reason cuttings are so hard to
find.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bon...@pacific.net http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com
Ron Martin
>myths. First, consider that the original parents of all of these cultivars
>(except those that arose as sports) were chance seedlings or deliberate
>crosses that resulted in new seedlings. In other words, the parent cultivar
>was simply another Acer palmatum seedling growing on its _own roots_.
The key to it is not "weak roots" but more viragoes ones. Grafting is done
to give the tree a wider range of climates to grow in.
A good example of this is the White pine. It is almost impossible to grow it
in the deep south. But graft it to black pine stock and it will not only
survive but, flourish.
If the tree is grown and sold in its native climate no grafting is
necessary. The root system will handle the needs of the tree. Move it to a
hotter or dryer climate and the story changes some what.
Commercial growers know this so they graft in order to sell their wares to a
greater market they graft.
Taking one of your Acer P. to South Carolina (where I live) usually will
result in a disaster. But one that is grafted to a more viragoes root system
is again a different story. It will survive. You might get some leaf scorch
but that is all.
No " bonsai myth " here. Just sound horticultural practices.
Ron
Brent Walston
>
>>I put this theory of 'weak roots' in the same category as other bonsai
>>myths. First, consider that the original parents of all of these cultivars
>>(except those that arose as sports) were chance seedlings or deliberate
>>crosses that resulted in new seedlings. In other words, the parent cultivar
>>was simply another Acer palmatum seedling growing on its _own roots_.
>
>The key to it is not "weak roots" but more viragoes ones. Grafting is done
>to give the tree a wider range of climates to grow in.
>A good example of this is the White pine. It is almost impossible to grow it
>in the deep south. But graft it to black pine stock and it will not only
>survive but, flourish.
>If the tree is grown and sold in its native climate no grafting is
>necessary. The root system will handle the needs of the tree. Move it to a
>hotter or dryer climate and the story changes some what.
>Commercial growers know this so they graft in order to sell their wares to a
>greater market they graft.
>Taking one of your Acer P. to South Carolina (where I live) usually will
>result in a disaster. But one that is grafted to a more viragoes root system
>is again a different story. It will survive. You might get some leaf scorch
>but that is all.
>No " bonsai myth " here. Just sound horticultural practices.
>Ron
Ron
This assumes that the roots of the cultivar are weaker than the understock.
In the case of Acer palmatum, this is often not the case. While true for
most of the dissectums, the roots of most of the broadleaf dwarfs and many
of the larger green leafed cultivars, the roots of many other cultivars are
just as strong, if not stronger than understock.
Even for some of the atropurpureum cultivars, cutting grown plants are now
common, although most of the work is done in Holland. In particular, I know
of commonly available 'Bloodgood' cuttings.
There is nothing special about green Acer palmatum seedlings as an
understock. It is not any more cold hardy or drought resistant, or disease
resistant than many of the cultivars. Many of these trees, and other
species as well are grafted because 'that's how we do things', rather than
from any intense scientific study of what really works well. Just look at
the case of grafted Crabs. Virtually all of the crabs on the market are
grafted to really lousy Malus seedling understock, while the cultivars
themselves have superlative root systems, often much more vigorous and
resistant to things like root and crown gall. Crabs are basically weeds,
and have tremendous roots, even if they have been bred to produce
cultivars. Someday both the industry and the public will wise up to the
potential of stronger cutting grown plants.
Just one more note. A case in point. Formerly, virtually all Acer rubrum
cultivars were grafted to Acer rubrum seedling understock for just the
reasons you cite. This if fine for the first ten to fifteen years. But Acer
rubrum suffers from graft incompatibility even when grafted to itself. A
weak union results and many of these nearly maturing trees came tumbling
down in the first good windstorm. The industry finally wised up and started
producing these cultivars from cuttings. That is _now_ the standard
practice for Acer rubrum.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bon...@pacific.net http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com
********************************************************************************
Ron Martin
>understock. It is not any more cold hardy or drought resistant, or disease
>resistant than many of the cultivars. Many of these trees, and other
>species as well are grafted because 'that's how we do things', rather than
>from any intense scientific study of what really works well
You might be right about the acer p. but I would not bet on it.
I think that we are talking about different things. Cold hardy and drought
resistant is one thing .Heat resistant is another. There are many reasons to
graft.
Scientific studies on the subject abound. The procedure is not new and the
benefits of it has been proven many times over. Whole crops have been saved
by grafting.
Want to venture a guess on how many of the grapes in France have been
grafted to root stock from the Napa and Sanoma Valley in California. You
might be surprised to find out how many and for what reason.
I for one would like to see one scientific study that says grafting has no
purpose. But then what do I know I live in the deep south. Hell my state
capitol still has the Rebel Flag on it. I don't understand that either. But
then I would like to graft it someplace else. Maybe the Governor will
volunteer to be the root stock.
Ron
Brent Walston
>
>>There is nothing special about green Acer palmatum seedlings as an
>>understock. It is not any more cold hardy or drought resistant, or disease
>>resistant than many of the cultivars. Many of these trees, and other
>>species as well are grafted because 'that's how we do things', rather than
>>from any intense scientific study of what really works well
>
>You might be right about the acer p. but I would not bet on it.
>I think that we are talking about different things. Cold hardy and drought
>resistant is one thing .Heat resistant is another. There are many reasons to
>graft.
>Scientific studies on the subject abound. The procedure is not new and the
>benefits of it has been proven many times over. Whole crops have been saved
>by grafting.
>Want to venture a guess on how many of the grapes in France have been
>grafted to root stock from the Napa and Sanoma Valley in California. You
>might be surprised to find out how many and for what reason.
>I for one would like to see one scientific study that says grafting has no
>purpose. But then what do I know I live in the deep south. Hell my state
>capitol still has the Rebel Flag on it. I don't understand that either. But
>then I would like to graft it someplace else. Maybe the Governor will
>volunteer to be the root stock.
>Ron
Ron
With respect, you are missing the point. It's not an all or nothing deal. I
don't condemn grafting, I even do a lot of grafting. You are perfectly
correct, there are situations, many of them, for which grafting is the
perfect solution. On the other hand, there are many instances where
grafting is done because it has always been that done that way, and for
which a cutting would work better.
I am not saying ALL Acer palmatum will do better on their own roots,
obviously more than half of them won't including virtually all of the
dissectums. All I am saying is that there are certain cultivars of Acer
palmatum and indeed other species and cultivars (such as Nishiki Matsu) for
which cuttings can produce an equal or superlative product. This is
especially true for bonsai where one can avoid a graft union. Cork bark
cultivars such as A.p. 'Arakawa', and Nishiki Matsu cultivars will form
corky bark all the way to the ground, and indeed even on exposed roots.
There will always be a place for grafting and opportunities for cuttings,
both in landscape, crop production, and bonsai. There aren't any absolutes.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bon...@pacific.net http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com
********************************************************************************
Ron Martin
>both in landscape, crop production, and bonsai. There aren't any absolutes.
Guess that we are basically both saying the same thing, just using a
different language.
Ron
Scott Mcphee
Ron Martin wrote in message <001101bf8c7e$3809d680>Want to venture a guess
on how many of the grapes in France have been
>grafted to root stock from the Napa and Sanoma Valley in California. You
>might be surprised to find out how many and for what reason.
I just wanted to mention that that many of the grapes were grafted by UC
Davis (I believe!) were supposed to be grafted onto rootstock resistant to a
pest (Phylloxera), which has not proven to be the resistant. I believe that
there is a suit against the university by grape growers in the Sonoma/Napa
because of this. Brent is in the area and I am suprised he did not mention
this. Perhaps he or someone else has more info?
Scott
Marty Haber
discussed.
Herb Gustafson
cuttings because of the problems with getting the cuttings going. Hhmmm,
true, I suppose. My logic still holds. The reasons for grafting are still
valid; it works better than the alternative. So the advice for the original
question would be to graft the tree lower or air layer the tree higher
rather than take cuttings. Same result, different reason.
My hat is off to you, and to any who would dispel myths. I get my knowledge
of propagating palmatum from working as a propagator for J.D. Vertrees. I
have also enjoyed personal communication on this subject with Robert
Ticknor, John Mitch, Jean Iseli, Harold Greer, Boyd Kline and Bob Baltzer.
Discussion of which cultivars grow on their own roots is routine and
obviously important. The only difference I see between those discussions
and your statement is your suggestion that these people grafted trees out
of habit rather than actual field trials on cuttings. That is simply not
the case. I still feel that if a cultivar is grown on understock, it is for
a valid reason. An economic reason is valid as well as a horticultural
reason. If you are able to grow a particular cultivar from cuttings that
the industry is grafting, I think that is great! Share it, and we are all
the better for it. Especially for bonsai purposes.
***************************************
Herb L. Gustafson Bonsai Author
Eugene, Oregon USA Sunset Zone 6
Mike Nowat
is the best time to take acer p. cuttings? Many of the large landscaping trees
here (Atlanta) have swollen buds now.
Michael
Atlanta, GA
Jim Lewis
I've been away, so missed some of the cuttings/air layer thread, but
cuttings are not the easiest way of propagating A. palmatum -- at least not
in my experience.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL
Brent Walston
>You mention that sometimes growing cultivars by grafting is easier than by
>cuttings because of the problems with getting the cuttings going. Hhmmm,
>true, I suppose. My logic still holds. The reasons for grafting are still
>valid; it works better than the alternative. So the advice for the original
>question would be to graft the tree lower or air layer the tree higher
>rather than take cuttings. Same result, different reason.
>My hat is off to you, and to any who would dispel myths. I get my knowledge
>of propagating palmatum from working as a propagator for J.D. Vertrees. I
>have also enjoyed personal communication on this subject with Robert
>Ticknor, John Mitch, Jean Iseli, Harold Greer, Boyd Kline and Bob Baltzer.
>Discussion of which cultivars grow on their own roots is routine and
>obviously important. The only difference I see between those discussions
>and your statement is your suggestion that these people grafted trees out
>of habit rather than actual field trials on cuttings. That is simply not
>the case. I still feel that if a cultivar is grown on understock, it is for
>a valid reason. An economic reason is valid as well as a horticultural
>reason. If you are able to grow a particular cultivar from cuttings that
>the industry is grafting, I think that is great! Share it, and we are all
>the better for it. Especially for bonsai purposes.
>***************************************
>Herb L. Gustafson Bonsai Author
>Eugene, Oregon USA Sunset Zone 6
Herb
I hope you don't think that I was taking you to task. I was merely
expressing another viewpoint. I envy your relationship with the above
propagators. My only experience with them is from buying their products. I
am heartened that they do accept the importance of cutting grown material,
and hope that for bonsai sake they do decide to propagate some from
cuttings in the future.
However, I must point out, that the perception in general about Acer
palmatum is that is must be grafted, and there is a great deal of
misinformation out there. It is my goal to try to educate the public and
other propagators who don't share the concerns and openess of your colleagues.
Another point I wish to make, is that no matter how revered a great master
is, there is always room for improvement. Specifically, I have nothing but
the greatest respect for J.D. Vertrees. His contributions in the field of
Acer palmatum are unsurpassed. However, even here, work goes on. I have
read his book over and over again especially the parts concerning cutting
propagation. Some of the things he has said just haven't proven true, at
least in my area of the world.
He insisted that it is paramount to get some new growth on newly rooted
Acer palmatum cuttings to successfully overwinter them. He even goes into
elaborate photoperiod schemes of tricking them into responding to short
days to get bud break. I have found that this just isn't necessary. If you
can find the right conditions (temperature, exposure, rainfall, medium,
lack of pathogens), a very high percentage of cuttings will survive with
buds set in July and no new growth.
I mention this because, I believe you should take everything with a grain
of salt. I guess if I was at the foot of Mt Sinai when Moses came down with
the tablets, I would have wanted photos of the burning bush.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bon...@pacific.net http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com
********************************************************************************
Brent Walston
>Since we are talking about cuttings versus other methods of propagation, when
>is the best time to take acer p. cuttings? Many of the large landscaping
trees
>here (Atlanta) have swollen buds now.
>
>Atlanta, GA
Michael
It is probably a little late to take hardwoods now, better to wait until
late spring, June-July, for semi-hardwoods. These will be new growth, about
six to eight inches, depending on the cultivar, that have just entered the
summer 'rest' period where they are not pushing any new growth. Necesary
hormone IBA is pretty high, 0.16 to 0.30% IBA talc, or Hormex 16 or 30 for
most cultivars. Automatic mist is greatly beneficial, bottom heat isn't
necessary if you keep the propagating area in the high 80's to low 90's.
Temperatures over about 95F usually will cause defoliation and failure of
the cutting, at least in my experience.
Using large landscape trees for cutting material isn't the best route. Acer
palmatum suffers from 'juvenility', that is, the older the stock plant, the
less likely the cuttings will root. You can force an old plant into
juvenile growth by severely pruning it in winter. The long vigorous new
growth from behind the pruned area will be juvenile and much more likely to
root. However, your neighbors may take exception to this procedure if it's
their trees. Younger cutting grown or grafted plants will give you much
better wood.
There is a lot more to it. Much of the details on cutting propagation can
be found in the article at my website:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/cuttings.htm
Herb Gustafson
Some of the things he has said just haven't proven true, at
>least in my area of the world.
Well, that just hits the nail on the head right there. That's why
propagating advice, even yours, has to take climate into consideration. You
mention temperatures that just do not occur in unheated greenhouses to the
north of you. With a shortened season, cuttings simply must produce growth
or they will not flourish the following spring.
John Mitch timed his cuttings to correspond with the natural warming of the
sun in Aurora, Oregon. The cuttings would start earlier with bottom heat,
but his high electric bill would have priced his product out of the market.
***************************************
Herb L. Gustafson Bonsai Author
Eugene, Oregon USA Sunset Zone 6
***************************************