Todd Bertrang's aftercare instructions (very LONG!)
Nina
Todd,
since you advertised your aftercare instructions as The Way To Go(TM),
I went and took a look at them. What I found was a colorful mix of
facts, medical half-knowledge, and utter BS.
Most importantly, you confuse inflammation and infection.
Inflammation is the body's reaction to any damage. It is completely
normal and it is even the main requirement for proper healing.
Because the bloodflow is greatly increased (which can be seen as
redness and felt as warmth), immune cells, oxygen and other substances
needed for healing can access the site of the damage more easily .
Inflammation is needed to get rid of an infection!
Infection is the invasion of the body with bacteria or other
infectious agents.The body *reacts* to this with inflammation, usually
of a purulent nature (with pus).
You say:
> (My mehtods are tried and tested
> based on my 12 years experience piercing and they often differ from
> after-care given by less experienced piercers).
I think it is really sad that after those twelve years you still
demonstrate such fundamental lack of basic medical knowledge that any
medical technician or nurse would be required to have. Yet you have
the nerve to put your views above those of other piercers and even
doctors.
From a *really* experienced piercer, I would ask not only perfect
placement of jewellery, but also some basic knowledge of wound healing
and wound treatment, inflammatory processes, infection, and proper
treatment of infection.
The advice you give on how to deal with infection is dangerous and
could lead to further complications!
This is also why I am posting this to rec.arts.bodyart at the same
time, since this is where you advertised your views.
Let's take a look at how I came to these statements:
> How you heal a piercing can drastically speed up, or slow down, your
> healing time as well as how healthy you are( immune system wise).
> Drinking and doing drugs will dramatically reduce your immune
> system. This can mean up to 3 times as long in healing a piercing.
> Stress can also be a contributor to healing times slowing down.
All of this is true.
> Enough stress alone can lead to an infection
No. Bacteria lead to infection. Stress can help bacteria
settle in.
Stress weakens the immune system, but that alone does not make an
infection. You still need bacteria. Which means that stress
facilitates the occurrence of an infection, but it certainly does not
lead to it.
> Another factor which few people pay attention to is clothing that
> they wear. Anything that puts pressure on a piercing can cause it to
> migrate, become infected, and or completely reject out of the body,
> even after it is fully healed; It just takes longer when it's
> healed, sometimes up to 10 years . Folds of the body have to be
> considered as well, such as labial folds or folds around the navel.
This is also true, and very important.
>Niobium, which tends to lose color in certain
> people's body's due to their high acid body type (which can be
> altered with herbs).
What is a "high acid body type" and why and how do you think herbs
can alter it?
I would like to see studies in which jewelry hes been exposed to
solutions of different pH and the changes over time noted, studies
with experimental and control herbal preparations.
How did this correspond to the pH that can be reached on skin or in
blood?
Blood pH is 7.40 +- 0,015. That does not leave much room for
deviation. If it goes much higher or lower, you die.
Skin pH is around 5.5,
> Antibacterial soap ,but be sure it is something VERY mild; NOT a
> name brand such as Dial, Lever 2000, or soft soap. Those are too
> strong. There are some excellent ones from herbal ingredients.
> Something pH balanced, and with NO perfume is preferred. Generic
> brands are OK sometimes.
pH balanced is good, but why should one wash their whole body with
*antibacterial* soap? This disrupts the natural and necessary
bacterial flora of the skin which facilitates infections not only on
the piercing but everywhere else. Dermatophytes are *waiting* for
those skin conditions.
Actually, the bacteria on your skin are in a delicate balance. They
are adjusted to the conditions on your skin. This makes it difficult
for harmful bacteria to grow because there is an existing population
of good bacteria, and harmful bacteria are usually not well enough
adjusted to skin conditions to compete with the skin flora. Hence, as
long as the skin flora is there, harmful bacteria will not be a
problem. If you kill the good bacteria, you give the harmful germs a
chance.
Bacteria as such are not *bad*. Without the E. coli in your digestive
tract you would get Vitamin K deficiency which would lead to blood
clotting disorder.
> Peroxyl, or a VERY mild mouthwash, made from herbal ingredients with
> NO alcohol or chemical cleansing agents in the mouthwash; for oral
> piercing's.
Herbal ingredients?? Peroxyl (TM) by Colgate contains 1.5% hydrogen
peroxide which is great for killing both germs and newly grown cells
alike!
Hydrogen peroxide is used as a 3% solution to clean heavily infected
wounds because it foams and thus reaches every crevice.
It is *never* used as an infection prophylactic because it also kills
cells.
At 10%, it leaves white marks on your skin. At 30 %, it eats your skin
away.
> When you take your shower, be sure to either pull your hair up out
> of the way, or wash it first. If you can wash it every 12 hours too,
> then do so. Hair has many germs,
True!
(use of regular shampoo)
> This can also lead to inflammation, and inflammation leads
> to infection.
BS. Inflammation is a natural *reaction* to any irritation or damage.
It is needed to get rid of infectious agents. Its goal is to create an
environment that (in the case of an infection) is no longer favorable
for bacterial growth, and to bring everything that is necessary to
fight the irritation and to repair the damage to the site *fast*.
Infection leads to inflammation, not the other way round!
> You need to get some hydra-cortisone and put
> this into the piercing after your shower. This will get rid of the
> inflammation and hopefully avoid a visit to a doctor to get a
> prescription for an infection.
It will get rid of the *signs* of infection. What you get is a
cosmetic effect in that the area no longer looks and feels inflamed.
But at the same time you reduce the body's ability to fight the
infection.
I see how you came to believe that cortisone would be the solution to
the problem, seeing how you think that inflammation leads to infection
and thus anything that inhibits inflammation would also prevent
infection. But you are wrong.
Using hydrocortisone on an infected piercing is treating symptoms
rather than causes.
> It also means you just
> disinfected your body and whatever germs you had are not going being
> washed into the piercing.
You also got rid of the good germs that prevent the bad germs from
settling in.
> 2nd The "crusty" phase. This means it will seep body matter, the
> same type that comes out after picking a pimple.
ROTFLMAO. What comes out of a pimple is either sebum, consisting of
fat and wax made by sebaceous glands, or it's pus that formed because
a sebaceous gland has become infected.
What comes out of a piercing is lymph and interstitial fluid mixed
with cell debris.
> To prevent dryness, and / or the
> potential ripping that can happen get some Elizabeth Arden's
> Ceremide Time Complex "eyes"(this can be found in higher -end
> Make-up counters at Department stores for about $40 for 60 doses)
There are lots of other ways to prevent dryness without going broke.
There are plenty of hypoallergenic moisturizers on the market.
> For the first three months AFTER healing; you still need showers
> twice a day. They CAN be three times a day if you want during this
> three month after healing period. The same is true for a skin (not
> oral) stretching. Take showers 2-3 times a day for three months
> after the stretching while it normalizes.
Showering the whole body is completely unnecessary for cleaning a
*single* piercing.
> Regular soaps are too
> strong and leave residue on the body, and IN your piercings.
All soaps do that if you do not rinse them off thoroughly.
> Stopping smoking during
> the healing of the piercing does nothing to aid the piercing.
BS. Nicotine constricts blood vessels and thus inhibits healing as
the supply of everything needed for proper healing is cut down.
Nicotine also is eliminated from the body very fast, otherwise there
would be no chain smokers.
> Overuse with peroxyl can cause a bleeding ulcer in your tongue.
How does it do that if it's so *very mild* and made of *only herbal
ingredients*?
> The
> alcohol causes an inflammatory reaction and can cause a scar tissue
> to form at the piercing, and even such severe swelling that the
> tongue NEVER goes back to its normal size.
Or it might explode. LMAO. This (swelling that never goes away)
happens only when a chronic edema (chronic in this case meaning
months) persists because lymph drainage is blocked. The body then
starts filling the water gaps with connective tissue that will not
disappear. It's called "elephantiasis".
Alcohol does cause an inflammatory reaction because it kills cells,
but I very strongly doubt that it will cause a giant tongue.
> Infections:
>
> Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type
> of oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they
> also prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This
> is the ONLY thing that gets rid of almost all infections.
This is really a good one. It may get rid of the inflammation, but
not of the infection. Here's link on Hydrocortisone:
http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/cortico3.html
Oral antibiotics are far better than topical ointments because they
clear up the infection from the inside.
If you think that your customers need to insist on getting the
medication that YOU think is best, why don't you go to med school,
become a doctor and prescribe it yourself? Im afraid you'd have to
study some pharmacology first though.
Besides, anyone who walked into a dioctor's office telling him what to
prescribe for the condition that they have already diagnosed on
himself after your directions would make themselves look like an
arrogant fool.
>If it does
> not, you need to get to a hospital fast, as you have gotten a staph
> infection, or something worse, that can eat up your tissue.
Certain strands of Staphylococcus aureus can do that.
> Chlorimycin is an antibacterial, anti fungal, anti-virus agent.
In other words, a simple disinfectant, not an antibiotic.
>The
> Hydra-cortisone gets rid of the inflammation that accompanies the
> infection so that healing can take place.
BS. It *inhibits* healing because it keeps cells from dividing. Which
is why, with prolonged use of corticosteroid creams, the skin becomes
thinner.
(snip list of things to take)
Oh good, I won't have to eat anything else because I will be full
from all the pills! Do you realize that this huge list looks pretty
ridiculous considering that a piercing is a relatively small wound and
not an organ transplantation?
A bucketful of pills will not prevent getting an infection from
touching a piercing with dirty hands!
> Most piercing's take 4-6 weeks to heal. The exception's are:
> tongue's at one to three weeks, Navel's at 6-12 weeks. Deep cock
> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
> "appropriate" GA will heal in roughly 4-5 weeks for 8 GA, and 3
> weeks for 6 GA. 4 and 2 GA PA piercing's will heal in 2 weeks, and
> reverse PA's of this GA heal in 5-6 weeks. Ampallange's and
> appadravia's are ideally done in 4 GA. At this size, they heal in
> 6-8 weeks.
I don't think that any of those piercings are really healed after the
time you state, except for maybe the tongue. Another "exception" is:
ear cartilage 3-6 months. What are "most" piercings then?
> (contact org...@spiritone.com for wood jewelry), and Ivory. Don't
> be shocked. Many animals have Ivory besides elephants and I'd never
> condon destroying them for their Ivory.
And what animals do you know that will cheerfully give away their
ivory? Ivory is actually tooth material, like from elephants and
walruses, which are both hunted for it.
Ivory from animals that died a natural death could never cover the
demand, by the way.
I think a major revision of the aftercare section on your homepage is
badly necessary.
Nina
-
"Communication" is the magic word!
-Steffen (my husband)
About me: http://nina.baltes.8m.com
Please remove "damn.spam." to send me email
SanFTatBoy
A friend
With regards to your arguments about the fluid that comes out after a
pimple has been pierced I think Todd can make a strong argument for his
case. When you first pop a pimple you are correct about what comes out,
but after it has been cleaned it still weeps fluid, sometimes for days if
the infection was bad or too much tissue was crushed during the process.
I believe this was what Todd meant.
Now inflammation. I have had several out-patient surgeries on my hand for
various injuries and the doctor told me to watch out for inflammation as
this was the first sign of infection. The doctor may not have been giving
me the medical definition of inflammation, but he said to watch for
swelling + heat (and of course pus, etc.) as I changed the bandages.
Inflammation at least in layman's terms should not get worse after the
initial injury has occurred, and so if any sees inflammation increasing
days after a pierce or other injury things may not be proceeding
correctly.
Finally Todd always seems to create controversy, and I wish he would
emphasize that he is giving an opinion more often and not facts. His
advise must have some value because you found several items you agreed
with completely and some you were just skeptical of. Again your opinions,
not facts. I don't believe anything someone tells me absolutely, question
everything. I had a doctor tell me taking redux (=fen-fen) would be great
for me, oops. A different MD tried to sell me on a commercial vitamin
program. Even professionals give opinions that are sometimes wrong or
unfounded.
We should all be adults here and take all the information we get run it
through our own BS filters and move on.
BTW- of my five self pierces (I'm new to this) none are bigger than 10G
and it is the only one that is now through first stage of healing and can
be played with, yeah! I have made nearly every mistake one could make so
far and all could have be avoided if the two months before I started
piercing myself were spent here, instead of the two after. The
information here is good even though not perfect. Your positive comments
and information about hydrocortisone are appreciated.
Nina
>I can't believe I am delurking for this, but here it goes.
Well, welcome then! Looks like I dragged someone out of their closet
:-)
When you first pop a pimple you are correct about what comes out,
>but after it has been cleaned it still weeps fluid, sometimes for
days if
>the infection was bad or too much tissue was crushed during the
process.
>I believe this was what Todd meant.
Then this is what he should have said!
>
>Now inflammation. I have had several out-patient surgeries on my
hand for
>various injuries and the doctor told me to watch out for inflammation
as
>this was the first sign of infection.
Of course. That is exactly what I said. Since an infection causes
inflammation, the inflammation is what you notice. But Todd says
"inflammation is the reson for infection".
>Inflammation at least in layman's terms should not get worse after
the
>initial injury has occurred, and so if any sees inflammation
increasing
>days after a pierce or other injury things may not be proceeding
>correctly.
Yes, but that is a different issue. . I'm sure you've had small red
rings around a new piercing? That's inflammation. Now, if it gets
worse, you have a problem, probably an infection. But the inflammation
is not the cause of the problem.
Actually, that's an interesting point to add to the other thread where
I was talking to Geoffrey about inflammation- if it gets worse, that's
one more way to tell if it's "just" inflamed or infected!
>
>Finally Todd always seems to create controversy, and I wish he would
>emphasize that he is giving an opinion more often and not facts.
He states his opinions as facts. I don't think he'd want to emphasize
that it's just an opinion. Look at the posts he made: "with the right
(read: MY) aftercare", "go to my site to find out about proper
aftercare"...
His
>advise must have some value because you found several items you
agreed
>with completely and some you were just skeptical of.
That is what I said in the beginning of my post. But the crucial
points in his aftercare recommendations are wrong.
>Again your opinions,
>not facts.
I mark my opinions by "I think". If that's not there, it's in a book
somewhere and it's approved medical knowledge.
Even professionals give opinions that are sometimes wrong or
>unfounded.
True. But that is no excuse for someone who is not even a professional
when he gives opinions that are wrong or unfounded.
And as I said- if I am unsure, I look it up.
>We should all be adults here and take all the information we get run
it
>through our own BS filters and move on.
How is a newbie supposed to turn on a BS filter when he or she doesn't
know the medical facts? How is he to know which aftercare
recommendation is the right one? Trial and error? No-one should have
to resort to this. That is one more reason why I posted.
>BTW- of my five self pierces (I'm new to this) none are bigger than
10G
>and it is the only one that is now through first stage of healing and
can
>be played with, yeah! I have made nearly every mistake one could
make so
>far and all could have be avoided if the two months before I started
>piercing myself were spent here, instead of the two after. The
>information here is good even though not perfect.
Have you looked at the FAQ? It's here:
http://www.eskimo.com/~rab
It contains much better information than Todd's site!
>Your positive comments
>and information about hydrocortisone are appreciated.
Good :-)
Geoffrey
A friend wrote in message <363CC745...@silcom.com>...
>I can't believe I am delurking for this, but here it goes.
>
>pimple has been pierced I think Todd can make a strong argument for his
>but after it has been cleaned it still weeps fluid, sometimes for days if
>the infection was bad or too much tissue was crushed during the process.
>I believe this was what Todd meant.
He should have been clear. It is a small point anyway and is not central
to what he was saying.
>
>Now inflammation. I have had several out-patient surgeries on my hand for
>various injuries and the doctor told me to watch out for inflammation as
>this was the first sign of infection. The doctor may not have been giving
>me the medical definition of inflammation, but he said to watch for
>swelling + heat (and of course pus, etc.) as I changed the bandages.
>Inflammation at least in layman's terms should not get worse after the
>initial injury has occurred, and so if any sees inflammation increasing
>days after a pierce or other injury things may not be proceeding
>correctly.
>
Nina did say that inflammation, especially increased inflamation was a sign
of infection. So I believe that her statements and those of your doctor are
in agreement. What your doctor did not say was to reduce the inflamation
through the application of Hydrocortisone or other remedies.
Please read what Nina wrote carefully. The development of infection leads
to increased inflammation. Thus, heat, etc especially if they are
increasing are indications of possible infection. The correct thing is to
attack the infection *NOT* to attack the inflammation. Todds approach of
reducing inflammation is hazardous and therefore should be removed from his
page.
>Finally Todd always seems to create controversy, and I wish he would
>emphasize that he is giving an opinion more often and not facts.
Well I do know how *THAT* feels.
>His
>advise must have some value because you found several items you agreed
>with completely and some you were just skeptical of. Again your opinions,
>not facts. I don't believe anything someone tells me absolutely, question
>everything. I had a doctor tell me taking redux (=fen-fen) would be great
>for me, oops. A different MD tried to sell me on a commercial vitamin
>program. Even professionals give opinions that are sometimes wrong or
>unfounded.
>
The problem is that his opinions are not simply opinions. People who follow
his opinions or advice have a significantly increased risk of damage due to
infection. Otherwise they would be yet another wierd recommendation that
causes no harm. Further Todd claims to be a professional with experience.
This puts further burdens on him for accuracy in my opinion.
I agree that doctors are often wrong and not all advice they give should be
heeded. Your fenphen guy was on the cutting edge and in my opinion, also
further out than prudence would suggest. Many doctors did not support his
advice. Every doctor will agree with what Nina said and disagree with what
Todd said. This particular thing is that clear. Nina's advice is very
fundamental biology and medicine. Todd is wrong, hazardous and bases his
logic on incorrect statements of fact, as outlined in Ninas post.
That's not a federal crime or anything but I do think he should remove
statements that are utterly unsupportable by medical theory and for which
there are known hazards.
>We should all be adults here and take all the information we get run it
>through our own BS filters and move on.
>
If what you are saying is that nobody should fully believe anything on the
internet ... yes that is surely certain. If you are implying that Nina's
statements are incorrect then you need to get some basic biology books out
and do some reading. Find one licensed doctor to endorse Todds
statements, and I will apologize.
>BTW- of my five self pierces (I'm new to this) none are bigger than 10G
>and it is the only one that is now through first stage of healing and can
>be played with, yeah! I have made nearly every mistake one could make so
>far and all could have be avoided if the two months before I started
>piercing myself were spent here, instead of the two after. The
>information here is good even though not perfect. Your positive comments
>and information about hydrocortisone are appreciated.
>
Five piercings does not make a clinical trial. I could put a single bullet
in a six shooter and claim that pointing a loaded gun to my head and pulling
the trigger five times is also safe (or maybe not) ... my point is that you
have been lucky. (This is not to say that the odds on following Todds
method are 1:6, I don't know what they are). Using Hydrocortisone on a
piercing will increase the chance of a serious infection taking hold. It's
that simple.
Geoffrey
Rebekah
Nina wrote:
> There are lots of other ways to prevent dryness without going broke.
> There are plenty of hypoallergenic moisturizers on the market.
One example for anyone who cares, Almay, made by Revlon, is not only
hypoallergenic but is also cruelty-free. Available in stores all over the
United States.
> > Stopping smoking during
> > the healing of the piercing does nothing to aid the piercing.
>
> BS. Nicotine constricts blood vessels and thus inhibits healing as
> the supply of everything needed for proper healing is cut down.
> Nicotine also is eliminated from the body very fast, otherwise there
> would be no chain smokers.
I've decided to add to tongue pierce aftercare, "If you can, try to cut
down... no sense adding carcinogens to an open wound."
> > Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type
> > of oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they
> > also prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This
> > is the ONLY thing that gets rid of almost all infections.
(reminding everyone that I live in the States, Land of the Lawyers and
Home of the Professional Victims)Is it legal to name a prescription that
someone should request? (I know that Todd not Nina suggested it) I ask
because I would really worry about insisting that a doctor not use his/her
own judgement (see "INSIST" above) and the patient risk getting something
that s/he is allergic to.
[raises hands, up in the air]
Remember, kids, I'm just asking. I don't know anything about the law
except for what i specifically research.
> Oh good, I won't have to eat anything else because I will be full
> from all the pills! Do you realize that this huge list looks pretty
> ridiculous considering that a piercing is a relatively small wound and
> not an organ transplantation?
> A bucketful of pills will not prevent getting an infection from
> touching a piercing with dirty hands!
My acupuncturist has given me a regimen of vitamins & herbs which I began
on Friday. I will continue these until my tongue heals. I am very
curious to see as to whether they aid healing time, one way or another.
i haven't had a cigarette all day :(
~ Rebekah
--
"Friction, friction, friction... orgasm. Fishism."
Oh, how you taunt and tease ... do you do it to torture or to please?
~ Pat Moss, 10/14/98
members.aol.com/ta2intl/tattoo.htm www.askjeeves.com -- search engine
FAQs- http://www.eskimo.com/~rab http://www.achilles.net/~dextra/spako
M Hawk/D Rivera
meant the whole web not just RAB when I said there was a lot of good info
out here. I read RAB, BME, the FAQ and have checked every other (working)
link from BME. I just found all this after my first pierce, (took me
three hours and a ruined CBR, but that's another story). Any newbie like
me should use all these resources first and if possible go to a
professional after.
To Geoffry, I haven't used Todd's methods because I read about them after
my current pierces. I did go buy a Ph balanced antibacterial soap and
some lavender flower blossoms from a health food store, the soap feels
better on my unhealed pierces and the rest of my body than did Dial, but
it sure doesn't smell as good. As for the tea, its a pain and I haven't
seen an improvement over salt water. I do have some new jewelry ordered
and I am going to try starting with the these products and if I get the
nerve to do my PA I'm going to do it in 10g instead of 12g. But no
hydrocortisone :-)
Nina
>
> Thanks for not being too hard on me.
It's not you I'm picking on :-).
> But no
> hydrocortisone :-)
It does have its uses- corticosteroids are great for *acute* onsets of
allergies, but if there's a chance that bacteria are involved- don't use
them.
Nina
--
About me: http://nina.baltes.8m.com
Nina
>
> I've decided to add to tongue pierce aftercare, "If you can, try to cut
> down... no sense adding carcinogens to an open wound."
True. No sense in adding them after it's healed either :-).
> (reminding everyone that I live in the States, Land of the Lawyers and
> Home of the Professional Victims)Is it legal to name a prescription that
> someone should request? (I know that Todd not Nina suggested it) I ask
> because I would really worry about insisting that a doctor not use his/her
> own judgement (see "INSIST" above) and the patient risk getting something
> that s/he is allergic to.
I don't think it's illegal even in the states. Free speech, I guess. But
if a doctor prescribes it without thinking and something bad happens,
it's the Dr. who's liable, not Mr. Bertrang.
> i haven't had a cigarette all day :(
Hey! That should be ":)"!
Nina
Geoffrey
>
>> (reminding everyone that I live in the States, Land of the Lawyers and
>> Home of the Professional Victims)Is it legal to name a prescription that
>> someone should request? (I know that Todd not Nina suggested it) I ask
>> because I would really worry about insisting that a doctor not use
his/her
>> own judgement (see "INSIST" above) and the patient risk getting something
>> that s/he is allergic to.
>
>I don't think it's illegal even in the states. Free speech, I guess. But
>if a doctor prescribes it without thinking and something bad happens,
>it's the Dr. who's liable, not Mr. Bertrang.
>
please in whatever way they please so long as they do not say they are
medical doctors. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies regulated by the FDA
may not say what they please and must hold to certain guidelines etc. When
a doctor accepts their license, they are forming a contract with the state
in which they actually give up certain rights in exchange for the right to
practice medicine.
It would be hard to sue a non-doctor for medical malpractice. There is no
claim of professional expertise. One can not say that someone was negligent
if there is no standard of care defined.
A non doctor may not perform surgery. In Massachussets tattoing is defined
as a form of surgery (but not piercing, go figure) and thus it is illegal.
This is a reason why tattoo artists and piercers need to be careful what
they say, lest they lead to a conclusion that it is surgery. Claims of
"medical procedure" or "hospital sterility" need to be worded carefully for
this reason. You may be proud of your precautions but must be careful that
you are not claiming to be a doctor.
Geoffrey
Shannon Larratt / BME
>A non doctor may not perform surgery. In Massachussets tattoing is defined
>as a form of surgery (but not piercing, go figure) and thus it is illegal.
However, in many places what is considered surgery is defined by what a doctor
will or will not do. If a doctor won't do it, it's not surgery, and is
therefore open territory for non-doctors to do.
Shannon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shannon Larratt b...@freeq.com
BME: Body Modification Ezine http://BME.FreeQ.com/
Unusual Real Human Skulls http://BME.FreeQ.com/skulls/
Exotic Cars and Cool Gadgets http://PriceOfHisToys.com/
Jon
BME) wrote:
>In article <71k8c5$2...@news-central.tiac.net>, "Geoffrey" <ge...@NOT.FOR.SPAM.tiac.net> wrote:
>>A non doctor may not perform surgery. In Massachussets tattoing is defined
>>as a form of surgery (but not piercing, go figure) and thus it is illegal.
>
>However, in many places what is considered surgery is defined by what a doctor
>will or will not do. If a doctor won't do it, it's not surgery, and is
>therefore open territory for non-doctors to do.
>
I may be totally wrong, and this is urban legend but...
I believe (unless it has specific exclusions) in the UK anyone can
perform an "operation" or provide medical care with out prior medical
training but he/she must not state that they are a doctor or medically
qualified.
This allows for a number of quacks in harley street (well renound
expensive medical area in london) who perform cosmetic surgery.
However this does mean that any "operation" must have a qualified
anesthetist for "real" cosmetic surgery, but... liposuction and the
rest can be done while the patient is awake and therefore does not
require anyone medically qualified at all to be present.
I would guess that there are some gotchas to this in that some pain
killers and other drugs may be pescription only and this would require
a genuine doctor to write a script.... unless the quack my prescribed?
--
Ampall...@my-dejanews.com
Mobile/Work: 07775 638904 after 7.30pm
Nina
>
> This allows for a number of quacks in harley street (well renound
> expensive medical area in london) who perform cosmetic surgery.
> However this does mean that any "operation" must have a qualified
> anesthetist for "real" cosmetic surgery, but... liposuction and the
> rest can be done while the patient is awake and therefore does not
> require anyone medically qualified at all to be present.
>
> I would guess that there are some gotchas to this in that some pain
> killers and other drugs may be pescription only and this would require
> a genuine doctor to write a script.... unless the quack my prescribed?
>
You would need at least local anesthesia, there is no pain killer
available that will numb pain enough to perform liposuction (supposing
that the average liposuction customer is not "into" the pain).
I don't know about the UK, but here in Germany you have to be a doctor
to apply local anesthesia (injection).
Shannon Larratt / BME
>I may be totally wrong, and this is urban legend but...
>
>I believe (unless it has specific exclusions) in the UK anyone can
>perform an "operation" or provide medical care with out prior medical
>training but he/she must not state that they are a doctor or medically
>qualified.
I believe you are correct, since Canadian and UK law are similar. There are a
number of estheticians that were doing facial silicone injections.
Rebekah
> Thanks for not being too hard on me. I should have made it clear that
> I
> meant the whole web not just RAB when I said there was a lot of good
> info
> out here. I read RAB, BME, the FAQ and have checked every other
> (working)
> link from BME. I just found all this after my first pierce, (took me
> three hours and a ruined CBR, but that's another story). Any newbie
> like
> me should use all these resources first and if possible go to a
> professional after.
Glad to know you're using the resources!! :)you can always check
www.dejanews.com, looking at posts on rec.arts.bodyart, to seek posts on
questions you may have.
Regarding "working" links on BME, just a line to let you know that some
areas are restricted. Membership is nominal, and articles or photos can
be traded for membership... which is great because it allows
contributions to the ever-growing realm that is BME :)
~ Rebekah
--
"...Now I'll take life by the balls and squeeze until they ...CRUNCH."
Jon
I think a local can be administered by anyone, even a injectable, but
a general has to be by a qualified anesthetist.
Rather makes a joke of being able to strike a doctor off...
However a person can be banned from practicing, which is technically
different
>
>Nina
Jon
Tim Hockin
>> tongue's at one to three weeks, Navel's at 6-12 weeks. Deep cock
>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
Such professionalism - "Deep cock head piercings"
>> reverse PA's of this GA heal in 5-6 weeks. Ampallange's and
>> appadravia's are ideally done in 4 GA. At this size, they heal in
>> 6-8 weeks.
HOLY SHIT?!??!? Is there ANY other piercer ANYWHERE that is nuts enough to do
an ampallang or apadravya at 4ga?? Most say 14-10ga - 4ga is EMORMOUS!
please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be different
and large-gauge. Get some sense....
Sweet christ. Can this get added to the FAQ: "Please diregard anything Todd
Bertrang says - he is a fool" ??
--
Angry men don't write the rules
and guns don't right the wrongs.
-- Stephen Sondheim, "Assassins"
--
Remove "dont_spam_me" from my address to reply.
Shannon Larratt / BME
>In article <363c85b6...@news.okay.net>, bal...@damn.spam.okay.net (Nina )
> wrote:
>
>>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
>
Is it really important whether someone is politically correct? None of the
first generation piercers would have called it anything else.
>>> reverse PA's of this GA heal in 5-6 weeks. Ampallange's and
>>> appadravia's are ideally done in 4 GA. At this size, they heal in
>>> 6-8 weeks.
>
>HOLY SHIT?!??!? Is there ANY other piercer ANYWHERE that is nuts enough to do
>an ampallang or apadravya at 4ga?? Most say 14-10ga - 4ga is EMORMOUS!
>
>please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be different
>and large-gauge. Get some sense....
There is nothing wrong with doing these piercings in these gauges. They WILL
heal faster and cleaner.
Yes, there are some valid reasons to complain about Todd, but this is not one
of them. When it comes to large gauge generally being much more successful,
he's totally correct.
Rebekah
> There is nothing wrong with doing these piercings in these gauges.
> They WILL
> heal faster and cleaner.
>
> Yes, there are some valid reasons to complain about Todd, but this is
> not one
> of them. When it comes to large gauge generally being much more
> successful,
> he's totally correct.
Not having pierced anything that large, I can say that it makes sense
but that I don't have any personal experience.What bothers me is an
insistence that I've read, in posts by Todd, that pierces MUST be that
big. I'd like to hear why before I disregard, but Todd posts it bits &
spurts... will he be back again before the New Year?
~ Rebekah, not taking a side either way without more info
Pokieslo
college degree in science !
E. George Oeser
> Not having pierced anything that large, I can say that it makes sense
> but that I don't have any personal experience.What bothers me is an
> insistence that I've read, in posts by Todd, that pierces MUST be that
> big. I'd like to hear why before I disregard, but Todd posts it bits &
> spurts... will he be back again before the New Year?
My first introduction to Todd was in #bodyart on efnet. He used to be a
regular there, but a couple of the other people in the channel took a
strong dislike to him and seemed to have chased him off. Todd seemed
like a really nice guy to me, and I feel that Todd strongly believes
everything he says, but there is no way I would ever let Todd touch me
with a needle.
One night I was discussing my desire to get an ampallang and how I
thought it would be difficult for me to have one since the erectile
tissues in my penis reach almost all the way to the end, Todd jumped in
and started telling me how it could probably be done, but it shouldn't
be done at less than 4ga. Sorry, but since Todd had never seen my penis
before it is just kind of hard for me to figure out how he knows that I
shouldn't have an ampallang done at less than 4ga?
I apprenticed as a piercer for a while, and I don't claim to be an
expert, but one of the things that I learned is that you don't discuss
the size of the jewelry until you see the part getting pierced. I saw
male nipples that could easily be pierced at 10ga, but I also saw
nipples where 14 would be more appropriate. Also Todd has made some
statements to me about niobium that I personally don't agree with. My
body can't handle stainless and so I always go with either niobium or
titanium, stainless may be best for a lot of people, but not for
everyone. Todd seems to be a really great guy, I just think he gets lost
in some rather rash generalizations about piercing and forgets that no
two people are identical, personally I want to be treated as an
individual when I get pierced.
E. George Oeser
___________________________________________________________________________________
Visit my online photo gallery!
http://www.oeser.net/george.htm
The Oeser Family Network
http://www.oeser.net
Geoffrey
US at the superficial fascia. Anything outside the superficial fascia
seems to be a grey area or OK. I would point out that even Jon Cobbs most
dramatic body modifications do not penetrate superficial fascia. It
appears he goes between the dermis and the fascia in his most extreme cases
but that's it.
Liposuction does penetrate the superficial fascia. I am quite certain that
it is not legal to do that kind of surgery without a medical doctors license
in the US.
The risks from infection go way up once superficial fascia is penetrated as
do the risks of "hitting the wrong thing".
What you say about CA and UK is interesting, I did not know that.
Geoffrey
Shannon Larratt / BME wrote in message
<71kg8e$fp8$1...@news2.tor.accglobal.net>...
>In article <3644ba6f...@news.demon.co.uk>,
ampall...@my-dejanews.com (Jon) wrote:
>>I may be totally wrong, and this is urban legend but...
>>
>>I believe (unless it has specific exclusions) in the UK anyone can
>>perform an "operation" or provide medical care with out prior medical
>>training but he/she must not state that they are a doctor or medically
>>qualified.
>
>I believe you are correct, since Canadian and UK law are similar. There are
a
>number of estheticians that were doing facial silicone injections.
>
Geoffrey
Tim Hockin wrote in message <71koe9$34n$1...@news.ilstu.edu>...
>>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
>
piercing the penis, anything kind of goes in terms of what you call it. We
are leaving Disney Land now. If terms like that offend you, I suspect that
if you really think hard about genital piercings, so will they.
>
>>> reverse PA's of this GA heal in 5-6 weeks. Ampallange's and
>>> appadravia's are ideally done in 4 GA. At this size, they heal in
>>> 6-8 weeks.
>
do
>an ampallang or apadravya at 4ga?? Most say 14-10ga - 4ga is EMORMOUS!
>
>please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be different
>and large-gauge. Get some sense....
>
very serious charges, apparently without knowing what you are talking about.
As already stated, I do think his biology and his after care instructions
are off base and potentially hazardous. However, the gauge of his
piercings is not.
>Sweet christ.
I am Jewish. I only mention this because invoking christ does not help me
to understand your point of view. I suspect it does not work on Todd either
(just a guess).
>Can this get added to the FAQ: "Please diregard anything Todd
>Bertrang says - he is a fool" ??
That would be unproffesional. It is also not true. He appears to have a
very high IQ. He also appears to me personally as arogant and not as
studious of the subjects he claims to know as he should be (some also say
that of me too). I think the FAQ is about offering accurate information
and not condemning people. And I do not think this newsgroup should focus
on condemning people either.
Geoffrey
Judith Grunberger
> There is nothing wrong with doing these piercings in these gauges. They WILL
> heal faster and cleaner.
>
> Yes, there are some valid reasons to complain about Todd, but this is not one
> of them. When it comes to large gauge generally being much more successful,
> he's totally correct.
What I'm curious about is what Todd uses to perform some of the trickier
small-space ear cart pierces, like a rook or a daith.
Yes, I've seen a rook punched at 12, and may get one myself (Sunday!). I
can imagine a punched snug at 12 or 14.
But a daith? To me pushing anything bigger than a 12 or 10ga needle
through a daith seems like idiocy, and how the HELL do you punch one? I've
seen an 8ga daith -- but it was stretched that far, not performed that
large.
How about the antitragus? A helix with minimal curve?
Would he use a scalpel, or just refuse to perform the pierce?
Todd?
Judy (genuinely curious)
--
Judith Grunberger * jcoo...@io.com | "no Bad Religion song can
Home page: http://www.io.com/~jcookson | make your life complete"
RAB FAQs: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/ | Bad Religion, No Direction
Geoffrey
>let me state then, that I was in a state of shock (yet again) at his
arrogant
>attitudes and ideas that he must be right. I have a great distaste for
him,
>from reading both here and on IRC. If he never showed his head in a
bodyart
>arena again, I'd be happy, knowing less people are being hurt and
endangered
>more than they need be.
>
I share your personal reaction. I suspect that I might not like him as a
person.
I think it is best to focus on what is really wrong.
I see people like Todd threatening the entire body modification industry.
Let's face it folks, there are a lot of people who could do without these
activities altogether. They use people like Todd and things like the
extreme cases in which disease emerges as excuses to end something that they
simply do not like. Tattooing is still illegal in my state. The reason
is a Hep epidemic that was blamed on Tattooing. There is no serious
evidence that it did come from tattooing, maybe it did that is not the
point. The point is that it got blamed and this blame was not managed
carefully. Public health? Huck Spaulding sells more beginner kits here
than in CA, NV, and OR combined. So ... we now have a state where it is
illegal with a record number of back yard scratchers as well as college
students. Legalize? Shop owners in RI and NH work hard against it (not
all) for reasons that are obvious. I might add that I know of "reputable"
"underground tattooers" one of whom is one of the most well known in the
Cambridge area who were not using Universal Precautions. I was one of the
people who successfully prevailed on him to get an autoclave. There are
100s more like him who do not.
These are the realities of keeping tattooing safe.
My point is this... Situations like this are an unexploded political bomb.
The best way to defuse a bomb is slowly, calmly and carefully. Making
extreme and subjective statements adds fuel to those who would use this as a
lever in political actions we would all oppose.
Geoffrey
Nina
Geoffrey
Pokieslo wrote in message <19981102144001...@ng29.aol.com>...
>So now I know that when Todd says he has a BS Degree he really does not
have a
>college degree in science !
>
None of these certify him as a piercer or a medical writer any more than a
high school dropout. So ... is your statement relevant?
The issue is not Todd as a person. The issue is what he says and how he
get's credibility. Let's keep the attacks to what he says that is
incorrect. If this becomes a pee on Todd show, it cheapens and dilutes the
real issues.
The best outcome is that he has the personal integrity to accept the free
medical advice from Nina and change what he does and what he says. Making
personal attacks also places further demands on him as he considers whether
he is wrong. It is harder to decide that you are an asshole than to decide
you made a mistake. If we just drive him off, nothing is accomplished.
He will find another audience and in time, really hurt somebody.
Let's hold to a weighing of the facts and not get onto character
assasination. Personally I think that really sucks and it does not serve
the purpose of developing better information.
Geoffrey
Pokieslo
all lost our sense of humor to laugh at ourselves and each
other. Really please forgive me for offending
any one and having a sense of humor!
tom baran
>
>M Hawk/D Rivera wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for not being too hard on me.
>
>
tom
>> But no
>> hydrocortisone :-)
>
>It does have its uses- corticosteroids are great for *acute* onsets of
>allergies, but if there's a chance that bacteria are involved- don't
use
>them.
>
Geoffrey
>I'm not sure if you're right -- Todd works outside of the piercing
industry,
>is far from affiliated with any of the professional groups, and does his
>damndest to make it clear that he is distinct from other piercers.
>
>Also, his volume of piercing is extremely low in comparison to a full-time
>studio. He works by appointment only, on cyberfriends. I can't imagine him
>ever coming to be an issue with public interest groups, and if he did, it
>would not be hard for the APP, etc. to make it clear he's an alien...
I think you have a point. Where the correct answer is, is hard to know.
I am not saying that Todd is an unexploded multi-megaton bomb... just a
small little pipe bomb. :-) By himself, he causes no real harm, that's
true. However, castigating him contributes to the explosive potential such
as it is. Responding to him with the intelligence that everyone deserves
will defuse the effects. I think it is counter productive to create the
sense there are legions of disease spreading zombies out there waiting to
infect our nations youth.
Let's talk about what is wrong with what he says and leave it at that.
Nina did a superb job of introducing what the problems are. Let's take a
look at them and define them. Maybe, make some changes to the FAQ (if
needed) that state the risks of Hydrocortisone and why it is dangerous.
Geoffrey
Michael Mulcahy
that five years I have had contact with numerous clients of his that were
not at all cyber friends. They were just regular people getting pierced.
Most had met him at a party or through someone who had herd the name "
Todd's Garage" somewhere. Unfortunately I ran into most of these people at
work. They were coming in because their 8 gauge 3/4" navel ring was falling
out and the skin was black, or he had done their 8 gauge clitoris piercing
on a kitchen counter at a party and wasn't able to put the jewelry in cause
it was now just all cut up.
So to me he is not an "alien" of the piercing scene. He is here in my
piercing world. It has been a long time since I have met anyone that has
gotten pierced by him......and I hope it gets longer.
michael mulcahy
Shannon Larratt / BME wrote in message
<71ll7j$pcu$2...@news2.tor.accglobal.net>...
>I'm not sure if you're right -- Todd works outside of the piercing
industry,
>is far from affiliated with any of the professional groups, and does his
>damndest to make it clear that he is distinct from other piercers.
>Also, his volume of piercing is extremely low in comparison to a full-time
>studio. He works by appointment only, on cyberfriends. I can't imagine him
>ever coming to be an issue with public interest groups, and if he did, it
>would not be hard for the APP, etc. to make it clear he's an alien...
> Shannon
Michael Mulcahy
saw bad piercings all the time. It has nothing to do with " team gauntlet"
I am not exactly sure why you associate my experience with Todd's pierced
clients with that of yourself. Shannon had said that Todd was an alien in
the industry as we know it. He isn't to me. I think that is only because I
live in LA and so does he. Yet he is still part of my piercing word, and in
my world he represents someone who gives incorrect info and does good and
bad piercings. The only piercings I have seen in person by him were bad. I
have seen healed piercings on BME and I think that is great. I personally
hope that all of his clients are ok. I have seen some in the past who were
not. Do I have pictures of these clients....nope. I am okay with that. I was
pretty shocked when I first started seeing his piercings so the situations
stand out in my head pretty clear.
Take everything said on RAB with a grain of salt.
michael
AWAP wrote in message <19981102223021...@ng113.aol.com>...
>
>And I assume then that you, as a responsible piercer, took pictures of
these
>awful piercings, and written/audio testimonials to back up these claims?
>I know of studios that do that, so they can back up things like this.....
all
>others to me are suspicious. Keep in mind that at one point, a member of
"team
>gauntlet" called me a hack piercer.... I tend to take claims like this with
a
>grain of salt.
>Shawn/SPC
tom baran
thockin@dont_spam.me.isunix.it.ilstu.edu (Tim Hockin) writes:
>
>In article <363c85b6...@news.okay.net>,
bal...@damn.spam.okay.net (Nina ) wrote:
>
>>> tongue's at one to three weeks, Navel's at 6-12 weeks. Deep cock
>>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
>
>Such professionalism - "Deep cock head piercings"
>
>>> appadravia's are ideally done in 4 GA. At this size, they heal in
>>> 6-8 weeks.
>
>HOLY SHIT?!??!? Is there ANY other piercer ANYWHERE that is nuts
enough to do
>an ampallang or apadravya at 4ga?? Most say 14-10ga - 4ga is
EMORMOUS!
>
>please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be
different
>and large-gauge. Get some sense....
>
anything Todd
>Bertrang says - he is a fool" ??
>
that the kill people, right.
tom - who is just interested in keeping the raw insults to a minimum.
Shannon Larratt / BME
>I see people like Todd threatening the entire body modification industry.
>Let's face it folks, there are a lot of people who could do without these
>activities altogether. They use people like Todd and things like the
>extreme cases in which disease emerges as excuses to end something that they
>simply do not like.
I'm not sure if you're right -- Todd works outside of the piercing industry,
is far from affiliated with any of the professional groups, and does his
damndest to make it clear that he is distinct from other piercers.
Also, his volume of piercing is extremely low in comparison to a full-time
studio. He works by appointment only, on cyberfriends. I can't imagine him
ever coming to be an issue with public interest groups, and if he did, it
would not be hard for the APP, etc. to make it clear he's an alien...
Shannon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AWAP
>>>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>>>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
>>
>>Such professionalism - "Deep cock head piercings"
Would you prefer "tit work"? Or "cbt".... those were words that early piercers
would have used. Keep in mind that PA piercings go through the "piss slit',
nipple piercings were "tit rings" and scrotal piercings went through the
"nutsack".
>>HOLY SHIT?!??!? Is there ANY other piercer ANYWHERE that is nuts
>enough to do
>>an ampallang or apadravya at 4ga?? Most say 14-10ga - 4ga is
>EMORMOUS!
>>please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be
>different
>>and large-gauge. Get some sense....
As many are quick to point out, myself included, Todd has killed no one. While
it's easy to theorize what Todd's methods COULD do, it's even easier to tell
what they HAVE done.
What they HAVE done is given him certain reputations.... either a cutting edge
Master Piercer or a dangerous hack.
Those calling him a cutting edge Master Piercer can get testimonials from
people he's pierced that really love him and love the piercings he's done on
them.
Those calling him a dangerous hack have rumour, speculation, and quite a few
times, Todd's own words to use against him. Do they have experiences from
people who've ACTUALLY gotten worked on from Todd? Or do they have "I was at
this party, and while I didnt SEE anything, I KNOW it was bad" testimonials???
I dont know Todd. I have never, nor would I ever, get pierced by him. A lot of
what he says is quite true, and some of what he says/does is wreckless at
best..... but.....
I have never heard of ONE person who has died or contracted a disease from
Todd's work. Most people I talk to who have had piercings/mods done by him
would gladly do it again.
Shawn/SPC
*"Is that a subincision in your Pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"*
Shawn Porter Collection: aw...@aol.com http://www.bme.freeq.com/spc
"In clandestine clinics fugitive technicians experimented with test-tube babies
and cuttings" William Burroughs
Ambient Inc.
<ge...@NOT.FOR.SPAM.tiac.net> wrote:
>>> (reminding everyone that I live in the States, Land of the Lawyers and
>>> Home of the Professional Victims)Is it legal to name a prescription that
>>> someone should request? (I know that Todd not Nina suggested it) I ask
>>> because I would really worry about insisting that a doctor not use
>his/her
>>> own judgement (see "INSIST" above) and the patient risk getting something
>>> that s/he is allergic to.
>>
>>I don't think it's illegal even in the states. Free speech, I guess. But
>>if a doctor prescribes it without thinking and something bad happens,
>>it's the Dr. who's liable, not Mr. Bertrang.
>>
>You are right. People who are not doctors can recommend whatever they
>please in whatever way they please so long as they do not say they are
>medical doctors.
Actually, here in Canada there's a little pesky law called thee
Medical Practitioners Act (Chap 294 IIRC) which (essentially) states
that any person who represents themselves as being able to (or who
actually does) diagnose, prevent, or treat an ailment, illness, or
injury is committing a felony.
So we can't say, "you've got an infection". We can say, "you've got
symptoms consistent with that ov an infection".
Shannon Larratt / BME
>Actually, here in Canada there's a little pesky law called thee
>Medical Practitioners Act (Chap 294 IIRC) which (essentially) states
>that any person who represents themselves as being able to (or who
>actually does) diagnose, prevent, or treat an ailment, illness, or
>injury is committing a felony.
>So we can't say, "you've got an infection". We can say, "you've got
>symptoms consistent with that ov an infection".
That being said, what's written law is very different than what's actually
practised. Remember, Denise, that under Canadian law books like BRAVE NEW
WORLD are also illegal. Canada is a country of unenforced laws -- and a lot of
scary ones. Did you know that under the new gun control laws (starting
December 1st) the police can enter your home without a warrant and search
anything they'd like if they SUSPECT that you may have a gun, or you have a
gun permit!!!!! And if you don't help them search, you get two years in
prison. Also, all new laws about guns do not need to go through parliment!!!
AWAP
>that five years I have had contact with numerous clients of his that were
>not at all cyber friends. They were just regular people getting pierced.
>Most had met him at a party or through someone who had herd the name "
>Todd's Garage" somewhere. Unfortunately I ran into most of these people at
>work. They were coming in because their 8 gauge 3/4" navel ring was falling
>out and the skin was black, or he had done their 8 gauge clitoris piercing
>on a kitchen counter at a party and wasn't able to put the jewelry in cause
>it was now just all cut up.
> So to me he is not an "alien" of the piercing scene. He is here in my
>piercing world. It has been a long time since I have met anyone that has
>gotten pierced by him......and I hope it gets longer.
>michael mulcahy
>
And I assume then that you, as a responsible piercer, took pictures of these
awful piercings, and written/audio testimonials to back up these claims?
I know of studios that do that, so they can back up things like this..... all
others to me are suspicious. Keep in mind that at one point, a member of "team
gauntlet" called me a hack piercer.... I tend to take claims like this with a
grain of salt.
Shawn/SPC
Ulf Scherov
> That being said, what's written law is very different than what's actually
> practised. Remember, Denise, that under Canadian law books like BRAVE NEW
> WORLD are also illegal. Canada is a country of unenforced laws -- and a lot of
> scary ones. Did you know that under the new gun control laws (starting
> December 1st) the police can enter your home without a warrant and search
> anything they'd like if they SUSPECT that you may have a gun, or you have a
> gun permit!!!!! And if you don't help them search, you get two years in
> prison. Also, all new laws about guns do not need to go through parliment!!!
While we're talking laws, get a load of this one: in Sweden there's a
new law
that says you can't use/mention someone's name on the internet without zir's
agreement... That would make it impossible for me to write anything about
SHANNON, for instance, without his conscent... or even mention his name!
It's a new law, but it takes such a long passing laws that this law is already
extinct, several years before it was passed..! I do not think this law
will ever
be enforced!!
It was probably suggested eons ago when someone thought peoples privacy would
suffer from exposure on the internet... Stupid legislators!
Our politicians are already excusing the passing of this law..! If this
law was
indeed enforced it would basically mean that newsgroups and such things were
unavailabe to us Swedes because the ISP's would be responsible when it
comes to
content on their servers...
Go figure...
Ulf
Rebekah
> While we're talking laws, get a load of this one: in Sweden there's a
> new law
> that says you can't use/mention someone's name on the internet without zir's
> agreement... That would make it impossible for me to write anything about
> SHANNON, for instance, without his conscent... or even mention his name!
so if i go to sweden i can't discuss shopping with ulf or tell anyone how gawjus
shannon is....good thing i'm not into swedish blondes with big boobs or i'd be
really depressed right now.
~ rebekah
--
"Friction, friction, friction... orgasm. Fishism."
Oh, how you taunt and tease ... do you do it to torture or to please?
~ Pat Moss, 10/14/98
pie...@inxpress.net
b...@freeq.com (Shannon Larratt / BME) wrote:
> In article <71l9nj$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, "Geoffrey"
<ge...@NOT.FOR.SPAM.tiac.net> wrote:
> >I see people like Todd threatening the entire body modification industry.
> >Let's face it folks, there are a lot of people who could do without these
> >activities altogether. They use people like Todd and things like the
> >extreme cases in which disease emerges as excuses to end something that they
> >simply do not like.
>
> I'm not sure if you're right -- Todd works outside of the piercing industry,
> is far from affiliated with any of the professional groups, and does his
> damndest to make it clear that he is distinct from other piercers.
Most of the time I am VERY thankful that Todd is not associated with any of
the "professional groups" or many other piercers for that matter. However, at
the same time, Todd also isolates himself from potential good sources of
information.
It's not too hard to figure out that the reaction, to Todd, by most other
professional piercers, would be even more strong and "hostile" than that
displayed here in r.a.b. While much of this reaction would be because of
Todd's "extreme" techniques, I think the reaction would also be grounded in
Todd's continued display of misinformation and insistance that his way is the
only way; or at least the best way.
I'm not going to debate whether Todd's "large gauge" methods are appropriate
or discuss his labia removals or other extreme mods. The thing that I see
that makes Todd a danger is, as others have said, the misinformation and
half-truths he spreads about. There is a lot of information related to
piercing that is based on "educated guesses" and half-founded scientific
information. However, much of Todd's information is just plain wrong (per
Nina's post, for example).
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for those involved), in most cases the
human body is going to heal IN SPITE of the bad things you do to it; not
necessarily BECAUSE of those things. This is a common misconception.
I have noticed a lot of "Todd defenders" often say things like, "Well, what
Todd really meant was suchandsuch." If Todd REALLY meant one thing, why did
he say something else? While we certainly all make mistakes and typos, this
seems to be a common defense of Todd's statements and his actions. As someone
touting theirself as an experience professional, it would seem he would take
the time and energy to make sure the things he says (and has available
on-line) are as accurate as possible.
> Also, his volume of piercing is extremely low in comparison to a full-time
> studio. He works by appointment only, on cyberfriends. I can't imagine him
> ever coming to be an issue with public interest groups, and if he did, it
> would not be hard for the APP, etc. to make it clear he's an alien...
See, I have to disagree with this, at least to some extent. While Todd's
exposure to actual people may be very limited, his very in-your-face approach
to what he does, as well as his desire to have everyone see his work (I've
seen his labia removal pictures from several sources), is drawing more
attention to him than he probably realizes.
And, for those who have been involved in legislative/regulatory type
situations where the environment isn't particularly friendly, you'll know
that showing Todd as "an alien" may very well be easier said then done. While
Todd may claim to be a non-standard piercer or whatever, the fact is, he does
piercing and still calls himself a piercer. As such, he will get lumped in
with the rest of the piercing community when it comes to regulatory
situation. Those who do not hold piercing in a favorable light would have a
wonderful time showing off Todd's mods and his all-authorative statements.
All of this has the potential to be harmful to the industry as a whole.
As easy/simple as it may be for you (us?) to separate Todd from the rest of
the piercing community, this is not necessarily a distinction that is so
easily made by those that view the piercing world from the outside; and
especially those that hold it in a negative light.
--
Derek Lowe (member, APP)
Steve's Tattoo and Body Piercing
1148 Williamson Street
Madison, WI 53703
T
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Nina
>
> In <363D7B...@okay.net> Nina <bal...@okay.net> writes:
> >
> >M Hawk/D Rivera wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for not being too hard on me.
> >
> >It's not you I'm picking on :-).
> >
> does this mean you are picking on todd? that isn't very mature.
> tom
Semantics...
Do you think he thinks I'm picking on him?
Or do you think he's say "thank you, I'm glad someone told me all those
things?
Nina
>
> In article <71l9nj$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, "Geoffrey" <ge...@NOT.FOR.SPAM.tiac.net> wrote:
> >I see people like Todd threatening the entire body modification industry.
> >Let's face it folks, there are a lot of people who could do without these
> >activities altogether. They use people like Todd and things like the
> >extreme cases in which disease emerges as excuses to end something that they
> >simply do not like.
>
> I'm not sure if you're right -- Todd works outside of the piercing industry,
> is far from affiliated with any of the professional groups, and does his
> damndest to make it clear that he is distinct from other piercers.
That's why Geoffrey said "people like Todd".
>
> Also, his volume of piercing is extremely low in comparison to a full-time
> studio. He works by appointment only, on cyberfriends. I can't imagine him
> ever coming to be an issue with public interest groups, and if he did, it
> would not be hard for the APP, etc. to make it clear he's an alien...
>
Still, if he advertises his methods/ aftercare/ opinions in a forum that
65000 people read daily (where'd that figure come from anyway?), and on
BME, I think that makes him an issue with public interest groups,
especially since he states his opinions like they are facts.
Jon
>.good thing i'm not into swedish blondes with big boobs or i'd be
>really depressed right now.
I Apologize in advance for my next quip...
No, but I am ;-)
Just as long as it's not Lolo Farari (sp?) a renowned porn/Daily Sport
woman with boobs larger than her chest...
Back> !<<<<BODY>>>>!<<<<<BOOOBBBSSS>>>>!
She is reported to be banned from flying due the possibility of
explosion...
>
>~ rebekah
Jon, and yes I know that she's not swedish :-)
--
Ampall...@my-dejanews.com
Mobile/Work: 07775 638904 after 7.30pm
Nina
>
> Just as long as it's not Lolo Farari (sp?) a renowned porn/Daily Sport
> woman with boobs larger than her chest...
>
> Back> !<<<<BODY>>>>!<<<<<BOOOBBBSSS>>>>!
>
> She is reported to be banned from flying due the possibility of
> explosion...
*shudder* she also has silicone- injected lips and she *sings*! Well,
actually it's more like squeaking...
tom baran
>--
>About me: http://nina.baltes.8m.com
does it matter if he thinks it or not? if you are then you are, and
that is wrong. your statement about "it's not you i'm picking on"
clearly shows that you admit you are in fact picking on him.
tom - who isn't defending anyone for any other reason then the fact
that picking on someone is wrong.
Jon
>Jon wrote:
>
>>
>> Just as long as it's not Lolo Farari (sp?) a renowned porn/Daily Sport
>> woman with boobs larger than her chest...
>>
>> Back> !<<<<BODY>>>>!<<<<<BOOOBBBSSS>>>>!
>>
>> She is reported to be banned from flying due the possibility of
>> explosion...
>
>*shudder* she also has silicone- injected lips and she *sings*! Well,
>actually it's more like squeaking...
I know :-} there is a program on UK's C4 called eurotrash and they
have a section call "a look at lolo" in which they get here to do
something moronic basically so they can show her boobs off.
Fun but not erotic.
>
>Nina
Geoffrey
>>--
>>About me: http://nina.baltes.8m.com
>does it matter if he thinks it or not? if you are then you are, and
>that is wrong. your statement about "it's not you i'm picking on"
>clearly shows that you admit you are in fact picking on him.
>
that she admits to it? That is pretty backwards logic.
Nina is a medical professional who has raised scientfically based objections
to Todds approach. Her science is based on very widely held, essentially
universal views about medicine. You bet she is picking on his ideas. If
picking on someones ideas is equated to a personal attack then I guess that
nobody should say anything that is disagreed with.
>tom - who isn't defending anyone for any other reason then the fact
>that picking on someone is wrong.
I do not accept your assertion. Again, your entire thrust is to Defend
Tom. I think you should do that if you disagree with Nina and think Tom is
right. However, it is just silly to say that you are not defending him. Of
course you are and that is OK. It would be helpful if you would find some
medical evidence that treating inflammation in a piercing wound is safe and
effective. You would serve Todd best if you could provide that challenge
to Nina. I expect you will not find it, because it is not true, but there
is always that possibility.
There is nothing wrong with picking on someone so long as facts and opinions
are kept straight. Nina has done that very well, providing back up
information to support her ideas. I think it is especially important to
pick on someone when they are proposing ideas that if put into practice (and
I assume they are) lead to increased hazard for his clients. In fact, it
could be considered her duty.
Geoffrey
Nina
> does it matter if he thinks it or not? if you are then you are, and
> that is wrong. your statement about "it's not you i'm picking on"
> clearly shows that you admit you are in fact picking on him.
I could have written "It's not you whose aftercare instructions are
partly BS"
Would that have made you happier? Or would that have been, in fact,
evidence that I was picking on Todd and not willing to admit it?
Nina - who thinks that nitpicking about political correctness in this
case is not only irrelevant, but also a waste of time.
Ulf Scherov
> Ulf Scherov wrote:
>
> > While we're talking laws, get a load of this one: in Sweden there's a
> > new law
> > that says you can't use/mention someone's name on the internet without zir's
> > agreement... That would make it impossible for me to write anything about
> > SHANNON, for instance, without his conscent... or even mention his name!
>
> so if i go to sweden i can't discuss shopping with ulf or tell anyone how gawjus
> shannon is....good thing i'm not into swedish blondes with big boobs or i'd be
> really depressed right now.
>
> ~ rebekah
Of course you can! =)
This law prohibits the use of names in print...
This incredibly stupid law was meant to protect peoples privacy. It was heavily
critised before it was passed, and when it finally was passed a few weeks ago our
lovely legislators suddenly realized just how severely it would affect such things
as the internet due to the fact that ISPs would be responsible for the contents on
their servers... All the BBSes and NewsGroups would - in theory - have to be
monitored or removed from their servers. But nothing's changed, and I don't think
it will!
Nothing has changed this far, and I doubt this law will ever be enforced! After
all, there are already laws to protect people from harrassment, slander and such
things!
Ulf, Swedish blonde without boobs
yttrx
*a bunch of stuff about todd*
Goddamnit, why cant I get this kind of reaction? Do I have to start
piercing people with saftey pins, whiskey and crack lighters again?
I'll do it, I swear to bob I will....
-----yttrx
Kristin
>
> Goddamnit, why cant I get this kind of reaction? Do I have to start
> piercing people with saftey pins, whiskey and crack lighters again?
>
> I'll do it, I swear to bob I will....
Do you use the crack lighters for jewelry? or as a piercing implement?
because as jewelry I think most would agree they are fine as long as
you run them through a pressure cooker first. But as a piercing
implement.....well I don't think that is such a good idea.
kristin
p.s. please don't take bob's name in vain. I am very offended.
Kristin
Rebekah
> abunchofpeople <tons0r...@various.nets> wrote:
>
> *a bunch of stuff about todd*
>
> Goddamnit, why cant I get this kind of reaction?
Didn't you see Wappy's spam blocker? On aohell, no less :)
you should be honored. <prerequisite bossing around so that yttrx's
existence will feel justified when he tells me where to go.
~ Rebekah
Judith Grunberger
> Do you use the crack lighters for jewelry? or as a piercing implement?
> because as jewelry I think most would agree they are fine as long as
> you run them through a pressure cooker first. But as a piercing
> implement.....well I don't think that is such a good idea.
I know someone who uses crack *vials* as jewelry. Does that count?
(Yes, he took the crack out. No, he did not smoke it.)
~Judy
--
Judith Grunberger * jcoo...@io.com | "no Bad Religion song can
Home page: http://www.io.com/~jcookson | make your life complete"
RAB FAQs: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/ | Bad Religion, No Direction
yttrx
A (hopefully) thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post;
AWAP <aw...@aol.comyttrxAOL> wrote:
: Deep cock
:>>>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
:>>>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
:>>
:>>Such professionalism - "Deep cock head piercings"
: Would you prefer "tit work"? Or "cbt".... those were words that early piercers
: would have used. Keep in mind that PA piercings go through the "piss slit',
: nipple piercings were "tit rings" and scrotal piercings went through the
: "nutsack".
Some of us still call it a nutsack, as in "damn, id love to get my nutsack
pierced'. Just sounds better that way I think. It is possible that in
an effort gain respect from the medical community and respect from the
general community, that this abrupt shift in nomenclature is 'politically'
based? If so, how valid is it? How nessesary is it? Do I really
need to say 'frenum' when what I mean is 'the belly of my cock'?
*snip*
:>>please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be
:>different
:>>and large-gauge. Get some sense....
: As many are quick to point out, myself included, Todd has killed no one. While
: it's easy to theorize what Todd's methods COULD do, it's even easier to tell
: what they HAVE done.
Ah, this is getting close to another recent thread...I hate to bring it up again,
but I will anyway: Has anyone produced a DOCUMENTED case (documents included)
of anyone catching Hep from a tattoo/piercing establishment? Have all other
methods of transmission beyond stomping on universal precautions been
accounted for in these cases? It is true, I think, that todd hasnt killed
anyone yet, and it is also true that I never got hep from stabbing myself all
over my body with needles and safteypins. I got a hernia once, but that was
from lifting something heavy.
: What they HAVE done is given him certain reputations.... either a cutting edge
: Master Piercer or a dangerous hack.
Either way, this controversy is what has made him as famous as he is. All
publicity is good publicity, nay? At this point, id actually like to see
him in action. Curiosity is getting the best of me. And from what few
piercees if managed to talk to (all one of them), the general consensus
is that hes quite good.
: Those calling him a cutting edge Master Piercer can get testimonials from
: people he's pierced that really love him and love the piercings he's done on
: them.
: Those calling him a dangerous hack have rumour, speculation, and quite a few
: times, Todd's own words to use against him. Do they have experiences from
: people who've ACTUALLY gotten worked on from Todd? Or do they have "I was at
: this party, and while I didnt SEE anything, I KNOW it was bad" testimonials???
The problem that I have with todd is that he seems to be misinformed about the
nature of infection and possible remedies. While I dont think that his
remedies are really DANGEROUS, per se, I do think that they are a tremendous
waste of money and time. To swear up and down that they are all the case
when the experience that hes drawing from to form that opinion is subjective
at best and at worst downright nonexistant is to me, quite irresponsible.
God knows I have unpopular opinions about contamination and cleanliness. I
dont have much room to swing in the beating of that particular dead horse.
: I dont know Todd. I have never, nor would I ever, get pierced by him. A lot of
: what he says is quite true, and some of what he says/does is wreckless at
: best..... but.....
: I have never heard of ONE person who has died or contracted a disease from
: Todd's work. Most people I talk to who have had piercings/mods done by him
: would gladly do it again.
Whats say someone, anyone studies what DOES happen as a result of alternate
cleanliness practices and modification technique rather than what MAY
happen? Ill say it again: If hepatitis C were as incredibly contagious
as many often claim, wouldnt we all be DEAD by now? Should there be
MILLIONS of people walking around NYC right now with hep as a result
of the slay factories in greenwich village? Why arent there? (and dont
tell me there are and no one knows it, that sort of breakout would be
caught very quickly. The hep family is a common rule-out factor in
many diagnoses. As soon as 50 people went to the doctor for their flu
it would be discovered)
Sure, its possible that the human race could be wiped out by a sudden
wave of hep that could possibly originate from the needle of someone who
isnt very clean. But its also possible that I could suddenly shit
a saxophone. Neither is very likely. Document me wrong. I dare you.
Go ahead. Lets see some evidence. Change my mind. Thats right, I dont
think you can. so :P
-----yttrx
yttrx
: yttrx wrote:
:>
:> Goddamnit, why cant I get this kind of reaction? Do I have to start
:> piercing people with saftey pins, whiskey and crack lighters again?
:>
:> I'll do it, I swear to bob I will....
: Do you use the crack lighters for jewelry? or as a piercing implement?
: because as jewelry I think most would agree they are fine as long as
: you run them through a pressure cooker first. But as a piercing
: implement.....well I don't think that is such a good idea.
Nono, as a cleaning machine for the needles. Ya gotsta sterilize stuff
you know. And I betcha crack lighers can kill hepC....:P
(now theres something to look into...:))
-----yttrx
: kristin
: p.s. please don't take bob's name in vain. I am very offended.
--
Golgotha
>(now theres something to look into...:))
Here's something else to look into, a pic outside yttrx's house:
http://www.monmouth.com/~panhead/sign.jpg
--
G¤£ 'signs, signs, everywhere are signs...' gð†hå ®
Eye for an eye, for an eye, for an eye!
~SoulFly~
Kristin
> : Do you use the crack lighters for jewelry? or as a piercing implement?
> : because as jewelry I think most would agree they are fine as long as
> : you run them through a pressure cooker first. But as a piercing
> : implement.....well I don't think that is such a good idea.
>
> Nono, as a cleaning machine for the needles. Ya gotsta sterilize stuff
> you know. And I betcha crack lighers can kill hepC....:P
>
> (now theres something to look into...:)
>
Dammit.....did timo tell you that....it was supposed to be a secret
experiment. We were using you as the test subject........
kristin
b@|+/-1
wrote:
>yttrx wrote:
>>(now theres something to look into...:))
>
>Here's something else to look into, a pic outside yttrx's house:
>http://www.monmouth.com/~panhead/sign.jpg
Dammit Gol, if you're implying that yttrx is a cow, and my strap-on is
THAT small, I'm REALLY gonna have to beat you down.
b@|+/-\1
--
bai...@enteract.com |'In my realm there is Todd
www.enteract.com/~baital |Bertrang but no autoclaves'
baital on EFNet #bodyart | - Drunken RABbit
(Check out my updated Kink page! Do it now!)
Golgotha
>On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:00:40 -0600, "Golgotha" <golg...@bme.freeq.com>
>wrote:
>>yttrx wrote:
>>>(now theres something to look into...:))
>>Here's something else to look into, a pic outside yttrx's house:
>>http://www.monmouth.com/~panhead/sign.jpg
>
>Dammit Gol, if you're implying that yttrx is a cow,
>and my strap-on is THAT small,
Smaller?
>I'm REALLY gonna have to beat you down.
Ohhh...
--
G¤£ 'L - O - L - A, Lola' gð†hå ®
pasquale
yttrx wrote in message <71nkuq$cct$1...@hirame.wwa.com>...
>And now for something completely different:
>A (hopefully) thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post;
>AWAP <aw...@aol.comyttrxAOL> wrote:
>The problem that I have with todd is that he seems to be misinformed about
the
>nature of infection and possible remedies. While I dont think that his
>remedies are really DANGEROUS, per se, I do think that they are a
tremendous
>waste of money and time. To swear up and down that they are all the case
>when the experience that hes drawing from to form that opinion is
subjective
>at best and at worst downright nonexistant is to me, quite irresponsible.
"the experience that he's drawing from to from that opinion is subjective?"
are you kidding????
all experience is subjective....
so's all opinion for that matter...
yttrx, have you lost your mind????
ta
pasquale, grouchy for an as of yet undisclosed reason.
The IrReverend Ruth Leviticus Genesis, LPs
>
> yttrx wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'll do it, I swear to bob I will....
>
>
>
i think Bob should get a p.a. if he doesn't have one already, that is.
ruthy
tooki
> Just as long as it's not Lolo Farari (sp?) a renowned porn/Daily Sport
> woman with boobs larger than her chest...
Yep, there was a thread or two on Lolo Ferrari a while back here on
RAB..
>She is reported to be banned from flying due the possibility of
>explosion...
Yep, I think so... and I wonder how much her chiropractor bills come
to... LOL
tooki
* tooki, aka Tonio * --- page me! --- *
* tooki @ usa.net * ICQ: 5175823 *
* Website now done! * AOL Instant Messenger: tookiGT *
* http://www.swix.ch/clan/tejada *
tom baran
yes i believe there is a difference between picking on someone and
picking on someone's aftercare instructions. that is all i am trying to
say.
tom
>About me: http://nina.baltes.8m.com
yttrx
: yttrx wrote in message <71nkuq$cct$1...@hirame.wwa.com>...
:>And now for something completely different:
:>A (hopefully) thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post;
:>AWAP <aw...@aol.comyttrxAOL> wrote:
:>The problem that I have with todd is that he seems to be misinformed about
: the
:>nature of infection and possible remedies. While I dont think that his
:>remedies are really DANGEROUS, per se, I do think that they are a
: tremendous
:>waste of money and time. To swear up and down that they are all the case
:>when the experience that hes drawing from to form that opinion is
: subjective
:>at best and at worst downright nonexistant is to me, quite irresponsible.
: "the experience that he's drawing from to from that opinion is subjective?"
: are you kidding????
: all experience is subjective....
: so's all opinion for that matter...
: yttrx, have you lost your mind????
Ah, but let me 'splain.
To me, there is the platonic 'form' of experience; An event occurs,
raw 'information' is created. The thing that happens after this, if
the experience is that of a human, is usually that there is some form
of filtration through 'brain' and 'mind'.
The filtration is what immediately changes the 'potential' 'information'
from 'objective' or 'form' to 'subjective' or 'experienced'.
Heres where todd comes in. I think that there are some ways of
'experiencing' this 'event information' that are _more_ objective
than others. I realize that this statement leads me straight into the
'how can you have a more or less subjective quantity!' argument, which is
akin to the 'how can you have a larger infinity than another!' argument.
See Aleister Crowley, Thomas Aquinas and Albert Einstein for extrapolations
and comparisons of these two arguments.
It comes to this; in order to talk about objective experience within the
relm of human experience, it quickly becomes nessesary to define 'more'
and 'less' as they pertain to subjectiveness which occurs during
perception. So lets talk about that.
Todd has experienced lots of piercings and healings. Insofar as these
events are 'experiences', i.e. they have been perceved by todd's brain,
they are of course subjective. But they become _more_ subjective
the moment that todd, on the subject of infections, makes the following
statement:
"Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type of
oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they also
prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This is the ONLY
thing that gets rid of almost all infections. If it does not, you need to
get to a hospital fast, as you have gotten a staph infection, or something
worse, that can eat up your tissue."
This is clearly incorrect, based on the experience of hundreds of thousands
of people. Todd has taken his experience to be the 'correct' one, and
ignored the experiences of minds apparantly other than his own. To me,
he has further subjectified his experience by believing that it is the
CORRECT one, while not taking into account the experiences of others.
This is what I meant by 'subjective' experience. 'More subjective'
is what I should have said, upon re-reading this. Heres my excuse:
The first post was made in the morning before eating and coffee.
This post was made in the evening after coffee and eating.
So suck me, ya crazy canuck....:P~~
-----yttrx
AWAP
I've been waiting for someone to comment on that.....
Shawn/SPC
*"Is that a subincision in your Pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"*
Shawn Porter Collection: aw...@aol.com http://www.bme.freeq.com/spc
"In clandestine clinics fugitive technicians experimented with test-tube babies
and cuttings" William Burroughs
pasquale
yttrx wrote in message <71oi2b$bv8$1...@hirame.wwa.com>...>:>And now for something completely different:
>:>A (hopefully) thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post;
>:>AWAP <aw...@aol.comyttrxAOL> wrote:
>
about
>: the
>:>nature of infection and possible remedies. While I dont think that his
>:>remedies are really DANGEROUS, per se, I do think that they are a
>: tremendous
>:>waste of money and time. To swear up and down that they are all the case
>:>when the experience that hes drawing from to form that opinion is
>: subjective
>:>at best and at worst downright nonexistant is to me, quite irresponsible.
>
>
subjective?"
>: are you kidding????
>: all experience is subjective....
>: so's all opinion for that matter...
>
>: yttrx, have you lost your mind????
>
>Ah, but let me 'splain.
>
>To me, there is the platonic 'form' of experience; An event occurs,
>raw 'information' is created. The thing that happens after this, if
>the experience is that of a human, is usually that there is some form
>of filtration through 'brain' and 'mind'.
>
>The filtration is what immediately changes the 'potential' 'information'
>from 'objective' or 'form' to 'subjective' or 'experienced'.
I can only presume that this is a statement of your assumptions...
>Heres where todd comes in. I think that there are some ways of
>'experiencing' this 'event information' that are _more_ objective
>than others. I realize that this statement leads me straight into the
>'how can you have a more or less subjective quantity!' argument, which is
>akin to the 'how can you have a larger infinity than another!' argument.
>See Aleister Crowley, Thomas Aquinas and Albert Einstein for extrapolations
>and comparisons of these two arguments.
glad you keep such good company, but I have a feeling you are full of
crap and don't know what the hell you're talking about, you big name
dropper you.
>It comes to this; in order to talk about objective experience within the
>relm of human experience, it quickly becomes nessesary to define 'more'
>and 'less' as they pertain to subjectiveness which occurs during
>perception. So lets talk about that.
You are assuming that there is such a thing as "objective experience"
and that if we all sit down and talk about it, we'll discover what it is
eventually. I have one word for you: poppycock.
>Todd has experienced lots of piercings and healings. Insofar as these
>events are 'experiences', i.e. they have been perceved by todd's brain,
>they are of course subjective. But they become _more_ subjective
>the moment that todd, on the subject of infections, makes the following
>statement:
>
>"Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type of
>oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they also
>prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This is the ONLY
>thing that gets rid of almost all infections. If it does not, you need to
>get to a hospital fast, as you have gotten a staph infection, or something
>worse, that can eat up your tissue."
I wouldn't agree that the above statement causes Todd's "experiences" to
become more subjective. It's a statement of opinion (just as much as
scientific proof is opinion, and my ramblings here are opinion). Opinion
isn't more or less subjective than experience. It's a method of trying to
communicate it (which gets into the role of language, which I'm not about
to delve into with someone who's too lazy to include the letter "u" in some
wonderful words).
>This is clearly incorrect, based on the experience of hundreds of thousands
>of people. Todd has taken his experience to be the 'correct' one, and
>ignored the experiences of minds apparantly other than his own. To me,
>he has further subjectified his experience by believing that it is the
>CORRECT one, while not taking into account the experiences of others.
he's stating his opinion, which is as right to him as yours is to you
(unless of
course you're doing that whole troll thing, in which case you may not be
stating your own opinion, but we just love that about you,don't we?).
Clearly
incorrect? Clear to whom? Because it's clear to you, and many hundreds
of thousands of people doesn't mean it's clear to everyone. It could be that
he disagrees with the opinions of others, or it could be that he doesn't pay
all that much attention, or any number of different things.
>This is what I meant by 'subjective' experience. 'More subjective'
>is what I should have said, upon re-reading this.
regardless, your statement still would have been stinky.
>Heres my excuse:
>
>The first post was made in the morning before eating and coffee.
>
>This post was made in the evening after coffee and eating.
yeah, great excuse. For a second I thought you were just going to use
something lame.
>So suck me, ya crazy canuck....:P~~
well, I might have, but I don't know if I still have a crush on you.....
ta
pasquale
Pokieslo
Bertrangs brain
Geoffrey
Pokieslo wrote in message <19981104095151...@ng100.aol.com>...
>Not trying to pick on any one, but this is getting scary trying to analize
Todd
>Bertrangs brain
>
Remember the "tour of Ronald Reagans Brain" in Doonesberry?
Where is a good cartoonist when we need him. A four panel tour of Todd
Bertrangs brain would summarize this thread quite nicely.
If you can not turn someone into a demon, try clown.
Geoffrey
yttrx
:>
:>The filtration is what immediately changes the 'potential' 'information'
:>from 'objective' or 'form' to 'subjective' or 'experienced'.
: I can only presume that this is a statement of your assumptions...
It is indeed. In this particular case however, the assumption seems
fairly consistently thread its way though the opinion of a whole mess
of other people. Not only that, but it stands up to some pretty
close scrutiny.
:>Heres where todd comes in. I think that there are some ways of
:>'experiencing' this 'event information' that are _more_ objective
:>than others. I realize that this statement leads me straight into the
:>'how can you have a more or less subjective quantity!' argument, which is
:>akin to the 'how can you have a larger infinity than another!' argument.
:>See Aleister Crowley, Thomas Aquinas and Albert Einstein for extrapolations
:>and comparisons of these two arguments.
: glad you keep such good company, but I have a feeling you are full of
: crap and don't know what the hell you're talking about, you big name
: dropper you.
Caught!
I shall fall back and regroup under some handy quotes supporting the above
point:
"look into the glass onion" --The Beatles
"Every man and woman is a Star" --A. Crowley
"First thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers" --W. Shakespeare
"uhm....well.....what?" --R. Reagan
"God does not play dice with the universe" --A. Einstein
"I say it is and its true" --M. Manson
"Vot?" --L. Beethoven
"I was walking down the street wearing glasses when the perscription ran out"
--S. Wright
"Language is a virus from outer space, and hearing your name is better than
seeing your face" --L. Anderson and W. Burroughs
I think that last one probably illustrates my point the best.
:>It comes to this; in order to talk about objective experience within the
:>relm of human experience, it quickly becomes nessesary to define 'more'
:>and 'less' as they pertain to subjectiveness which occurs during
:>perception. So lets talk about that.
: You are assuming that there is such a thing as "objective experience"
: and that if we all sit down and talk about it, we'll discover what it is
: eventually. I have one word for you: poppycock.
The only way that any information can be exchanged in a lingual fashion
between two minds is
for there to be either a spoken or unspoken assumption that there is such
thing as 'objextive' experience. That there is an 'outside' and an
'inside'. While perhaps not valid in the relm of zen buddhism or gnostic
christianity or any host of other _theologically_ based philosophies,
it is quite useful for the mundane westerner to make this assumption so
that anything can be discussed at all.
:>Todd has experienced lots of piercings and healings. Insofar as these
:>events are 'experiences', i.e. they have been perceved by todd's brain,
:>they are of course subjective. But they become _more_ subjective
:>the moment that todd, on the subject of infections, makes the following
:>statement:
:>
:>"Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type of
:>oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they also
:>prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This is the ONLY
:>thing that gets rid of almost all infections. If it does not, you need to
:>get to a hospital fast, as you have gotten a staph infection, or something
:>worse, that can eat up your tissue."
: I wouldn't agree that the above statement causes Todd's "experiences" to
: become more subjective. It's a statement of opinion
Stop RIGHT there. Its a statement of opinion? Well, I know that and YOU
know that, but nowhere in todds aftercare instructions is it mentioned that
ANY of it is opinion. The closest he comes is calling the document
aftercare 'advice' in the link. Does this sound like advice?
"Chlorimycin is an antibacterial, anti fungal, anti-virus agent. The Hydra-
cortisone gets rid of the inflammation that accompanies the infection so that
healing can take place. Some doctors "think" that this is equivalent to
bacitracin. This is not even remotely true. Some also think that Chlorimycin
can not longer be obtained. Doctor's are human so ask for an equivalent."
It doesnt sound like advice to me. It sounds to me like todd is making a
statement of fact: "Some doctors 'think' that this is equivalent to
bacitracin. This is not even remotely true."
The insinuation here is that todd is correct and doctors that think that
hydrocortisone is equivalent to bacitracin are incorrect. Whether or not
they actually ARE incorrect (objective true-ism, :)) is not the point here.
The point is that when opinion is given off as FACT, it is no longer opinion.
It is at this point that a person can actually be said to be 'incorrect'.
Todd is 'incorrect' on MANY points in his aftercare document.
: (just as much as
: scientific proof is opinion, and my ramblings here are opinion). Opinion
: isn't more or less subjective than experience. It's a method of trying to
: communicate it (which gets into the role of language, which I'm not about
: to delve into with someone who's too lazy to include the letter "u" in some
: wonderful words).
:>This is clearly incorrect, based on the experience of hundreds of thousands
:>of people. Todd has taken his experience to be the 'correct' one, and
:>ignored the experiences of minds apparantly other than his own. To me,
:>he has further subjectified his experience by believing that it is the
:>CORRECT one, while not taking into account the experiences of others.
: he's stating his opinion,
Which he is passing off as FACT.
: which is as right to him as yours is to you
If it was actually opinion. I have as much a right to say "If you get a
splinter in your finger, you MUST chop it off IMMEDIATELY before you catch
HIV. Most doctors dont think that splinters are dangerous, but the FACT
is that they ARE, and unless you IMMEDIATELY chisel off the digit in
question, chances are you will DIE."
Admitted, these are just words. But they are words that could carry some
sharp consequences if taken to the letter. Opinion is subjective of course,
but when one passes what is inside their head for what is outside their head,
(the menu for the meal, etc) I think they are making an enormous mistake.
: (unless of
: course you're doing that whole troll thing, in which case you may not be
: stating your own opinion, but we just love that about you,don't we?).
Troll? Me? Surely I wouldnt go to these lengths to simply blow shit...
Would I?
: Clearly
: incorrect? Clear to whom? Because it's clear to you, and many hundreds
: of thousands of people doesn't mean it's clear to everyone. It could be that
: he disagrees with the opinions of others, or it could be that he doesn't pay
: all that much attention, or any number of different things.
I choose to believe that its because hes a fucking idiot.
:>This is what I meant by 'subjective' experience. 'More subjective'
:>is what I should have said, upon re-reading this.
: regardless, your statement still would have been stinky.
Nope. Not to me it wouldnt. See everything above for details. :)
pasquale
yttrx wrote in message <71q4jg$fp0$1...@hirame.wwa.com>...
>pasquale <pasq...@storm.ca> wrote:
[snip some stuff]
>It is indeed. In this particular case however, the assumption seems
>fairly consistently thread its way though the opinion of a whole mess
>of other people. Not only that, but it stands up to some pretty
>close scrutiny.
how does opinion stand up to scrutiny????
[snip of yttrx's name dropping]
>"Language is a virus from outer space, and hearing your name is better than
>seeing your face" --L. Anderson and W. Burroughs
>
>I think that last one probably illustrates my point the best.
well, it certainly warms my cockles.... oh, wait...
>:>It comes to this; in order to talk about objective experience within the
>:>relm of human experience, it quickly becomes nessesary to define 'more'
>:>and 'less' as they pertain to subjectiveness which occurs during
>:>perception. So lets talk about that.
>
>
>: You are assuming that there is such a thing as "objective experience"
>: and that if we all sit down and talk about it, we'll discover what it is
>: eventually. I have one word for you: poppycock.
>
>The only way that any information can be exchanged in a lingual fashion
>between two minds is
>for there to be either a spoken or unspoken assumption that there is such
>thing as 'objextive' experience.
why? objective experience denotes that something is immutable. You are
assuming that there is a universal truth in experience, and it is permanent
and real - that's madness!!!!
>That there is an 'outside' and an
>'inside'.
I have an inside (what I like to call my big gooey perception blob), the
outside is subject to doubt, regardless of whatever it is.
>While perhaps not valid in the relm of zen buddhism or gnostic
>christianity or any host of other _theologically_ based philosophies,
>it is quite useful for the mundane westerner to make this assumption so
>that anything can be discussed at all.
you can state that "everything is illusion" and then discuss the nature of
the
illusion - it works for the buddhists, then again, they spend alot of time
meditating.
>:>Todd has experienced lots of piercings and healings. Insofar as these
>:>events are 'experiences', i.e. they have been perceved by todd's brain,
>:>they are of course subjective. But they become _more_ subjective
>:>the moment that todd, on the subject of infections, makes the following
>:>statement:
>:>
>:>"Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type of
>:>oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they also
>:>prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This is the ONLY
>:>thing that gets rid of almost all infections. If it does not, you need to
>:>get to a hospital fast, as you have gotten a staph infection, or
something
>:>worse, that can eat up your tissue."
>
>
>: I wouldn't agree that the above statement causes Todd's "experiences" to
>: become more subjective. It's a statement of opinion
>
>Stop RIGHT there. Its a statement of opinion?
every statement is a statement of opinion.
>Well, I know that and YOU
>know that, but nowhere in todds aftercare instructions is it mentioned that
>ANY of it is opinion.
isn't IMO assumed???? (and if anyone brings up that ass out of you and me
thing, I'm going to weep). If he's not stating his own opinion, whose is he
stating?
mine? yours? the Borg collective?
>The closest he comes is calling the document
>aftercare 'advice' in the link. Does this sound like advice?
advice is opinion.
>"Chlorimycin is an antibacterial, anti fungal, anti-virus agent. The Hydra-
>cortisone gets rid of the inflammation that accompanies the infection so
that
>healing can take place. Some doctors "think" that this is equivalent to
>bacitracin. This is not even remotely true. Some also think that
Chlorimycin
>can not longer be obtained. Doctor's are human so ask for an equivalent."
>
>It doesnt sound like advice to me. It sounds to me like todd is making a
>statement of fact: "Some doctors 'think' that this is equivalent to
>bacitracin. This is not even remotely true."
"fact" is opinion.
>The insinuation here is that todd is correct and doctors that think that
>hydrocortisone is equivalent to bacitracin are incorrect. Whether or not
>they actually ARE incorrect (objective true-ism, :)) is not the point here.
>The point is that when opinion is given off as FACT, it is no longer
opinion.
>It is at this point that a person can actually be said to be 'incorrect'.
in stating one's opinion, of course he's going to think that what he's
saying
is true. You just happen to disagree. bah! rubbish.
It was a fact that the world was flat.
It is now a fact that the world is an oblate spheroid.
which is correct???? neither - it's opinion.
>Todd is 'incorrect' on MANY points in his aftercare document.
you disagree. that doesn't make it incorrect. Doctors and piercers and
piercees
and RABbits can all disagree. It doesn't make it incorrect, just a minority
opinion.
>: (just as much as
>: scientific proof is opinion, and my ramblings here are opinion). Opinion
>: isn't more or less subjective than experience. It's a method of trying to
>: communicate it (which gets into the role of language, which I'm not about
>: to delve into with someone who's too lazy to include the letter "u" in
some
>: wonderful words).
>
>:>This is clearly incorrect, based on the experience of hundreds of
thousands
>:>of people. Todd has taken his experience to be the 'correct' one, and
>:>ignored the experiences of minds apparantly other than his own. To me,
>:>he has further subjectified his experience by believing that it is the
>:>CORRECT one, while not taking into account the experiences of others.
>
>
>: he's stating his opinion,
>
>Which he is passing off as FACT.
see above re: facts
>: which is as right to him as yours is to you
>
>If it was actually opinion. I have as much a right to say "If you get a
>splinter in your finger, you MUST chop it off IMMEDIATELY before you catch
>HIV. Most doctors dont think that splinters are dangerous, but the FACT
>is that they ARE, and unless you IMMEDIATELY chisel off the digit in
>question, chances are you will DIE."
>
>Admitted, these are just words. But they are words that could carry some
>sharp consequences if taken to the letter. Opinion is subjective of
course,
>but when one passes what is inside their head for what is outside their
head,
>(the menu for the meal, etc) I think they are making an enormous mistake.
no one is being forced to take any of the advice, or believe any of the
"facts" that
are posted in this NG or any other. You don't even have to follow the advice
of a
physician or piercer, or anyone for that matter. Again, you are assuming
that there
is an objective universe which I take to mean that you believe in right and
wrong.
I don't, except that you're wrong. =)~
>: Clearly
>: incorrect? Clear to whom? Because it's clear to you, and many hundreds
>: of thousands of people doesn't mean it's clear to everyone. It could be
that
>: he disagrees with the opinions of others, or it could be that he doesn't
pay
>: all that much attention, or any number of different things.
>
>I choose to believe that its because hes a fucking idiot.
which is as valid as anything else.
>:>This is what I meant by 'subjective' experience. 'More subjective'
>:>is what I should have said, upon re-reading this.
>
>: regardless, your statement still would have been stinky.
>
>Nope. Not to me it wouldnt. See everything above for details. :)
I don't care what it would mean to you, I was speaking from my own
perspective
ta
pasquale
AWAP
In the future I recommend that you and every other professional, ethical
piercer document EVERY hack job that comes into your shop, both written and
photographic documentation.
It seems like a hassle, but it:
A. backs up claims that could otherwise be written off as badmouthing the
compitition
(please insert the "Todd ISN'T our compitition line here)
B. puts "on record" the client's own words, as well as photographic evidence
C. educates clients...show em bad work so they will recognize good work.
Just my opinion....
Shawn/spc
Ambient Inc.
>AWAP <aw...@aol.comyttrxAOL> wrote:
>: Deep cock
>:>>>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>:>>>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
>:>>Such professionalism - "Deep cock head piercings"
>: Would you prefer "tit work"? Or "cbt".... those were words that early piercers
>: would have used. Keep in mind that PA piercings go through the "piss slit',
>: nipple piercings were "tit rings" and scrotal piercings went through the
>: "nutsack".
I love my snatch piercings, and there's nothing like a pierced pussy
to get me wet. But when I was at work, I'd call 'em by their
anatomical names at first.
>:>>please, Todd, you are going to KILL SOMEONE for your desire to be
>:>different
>:>>and large-gauge. Get some sense....
>: As many are quick to point out, myself included, Todd has killed no one. While
>: it's easy to theorize what Todd's methods COULD do, it's even easier to tell
>: what they HAVE done.
>
>Ah, this is getting close to another recent thread...I hate to bring it up again,
>but I will anyway: Has anyone produced a DOCUMENTED case (documents included)
>of anyone catching Hep from a tattoo/piercing establishment? Have all other
>methods of transmission beyond stomping on universal precautions been
>accounted for in these cases? It is true, I think, that todd hasnt killed
>anyone yet, and it is also true that I never got hep from stabbing myself all
>over my body with needles and safteypins. I got a hernia once, but that was
>from lifting something heavy.
Please see my post under thee subject "Infectious and non-infectious
consequences of tattoos". I've also go documentation on infectious
and non-infectious complications of piercing courtesy ov Health
Canada.
Pokieslo
to death, if there is enough real legal concern
about Todd's healing advice, maybe the rab ought to pull all his advice and
mention of him out. After all who want's to see the rab pulled into a future
law suite by one of his unhappy clients. This may not sound fair, but any good
attorney will tell you it is just good business not to be in any kind of
association with some one of a high legal risk factor, that can drag you down.
Judith Grunberger
Uhhhhhh. You misunderstand "the rab."
rec.arts.bodyart is an unmoderated public forum, and cannot "pull"
anything "out," nor can it be sued.
yttrx
*SNIP*
: I don't care what it would mean to you, I was speaking from my own
: perspective
I made up a name for this during an acid trip once. I was having a
conversation with a friend of mine, also tripping, about the nature
of reality. Of course.
He kept on telling me that everything was illusory and that I was
the creator of my own universe, that there was no inside and outside,
subject and object, etc. Looking back on it, im pretty sure that
what he was having a very difficult time explaining to me was something
that had to do with the mystical unification of subject and object.
(lead to gold, gnosis, etc)
I call this perspective, the position that all is subjectivity, that
everything is created and recreated moment by moment in my own head, that
all things are defined by the observer 'hippie consciousness'.
Hippie consciousness is very different from regular consciousness.
While regular consciousness would tell me that the orange spherical
thing thats orange and smells like and orange and tastes like an
orange thats in my hand right now is an orange, hippie consciousness
would tell me nothing about it at all. In fact, if I was really
engulfed in hippie consciousness I might start talking about whether
your orange is my banana or even my mailbox. Then I might start really
freaking out pondering what it would be like if everyone who ate an
orange was really eating one of my mailboxes.
Etc.
Now, dont get me wrong. Theres a difference between hippie consciousness
and say, nirvana, shambala, gnosis, etc. The difference is usually contained
within a factor of decades, a buttload of training and tons and tons
of practice. But I digress.
Its easy to say (everything is easy to say) that all is subjective. And
that things only _appear_ to be what I sense. And that my perception
does NOT include anything objective.
And then theres this; If someone drops a dump truck on my head, it [1] will
pop like a ripe honeydew. I will die. Not "no, you will only appear to die"
Not "well, you could be saved by another dumptruck travelling perpendicular
to the first one and striking it very hard right before it hits your head
thereby knocking it away". Not "You're already dead, or you might as well
be, you perceptionless twit". Not "you will be saved if you love God enough".
I will die. My head will pop. This is true. Human heads (like the one
I have) cannot withstand that kind of concussive force without getting
smashed.
There is a point where ontological rhetoric meets cold hard reality. Its the
last stop on the 'we all live in different perceptual universes' train.
We're here, and beyond this there is only religion....
*shudder*
-----yttrx
[1]my head
Geoffrey
Pokieslo wrote in message <19981104150142...@ng83.aol.com>...
>Kidding aside and not meaning to beat a horse
>to death, if there is enough real legal concern
>about Todd's healing advice, maybe the rab ought to pull all his advice and
>mention of him out. After all who want's to see the rab pulled into a
future
>law suite by one of his unhappy clients. This may not sound fair, but any
good
>attorney will tell you it is just good business not to be in any kind of
>association with some one of a high legal risk factor, that can drag you
down.
>
I am curious ... how do you sue RAB? Where do you send the summons? If
you happen to know, fill me in. I would love to sue RAB. Man, that would
be the ultimate post.
How would you convince a jury that someone who was injured by listening to
something here was anything but a complete idiot who was injured for that
reason alone.
Now you have me thinking ... what a good idea this is... Sue RAB. Who is
the leader here? Who seems to be the most in line for that position? I
wonder if they have any assets? Oh boy.
Geoffrey
pasquale
yttrx wrote in message <71qdiu$nia$1...@hirame.wwa.com>...
>pasquale <pasq...@storm.ca> wrote:
[snipping acid conversation bits]
>I call this perspective, the position that all is subjectivity, that
>everything is created and recreated moment by moment in my own head, that
>all things are defined by the observer 'hippie consciousness'.
that's just mean... I feel slighted, being associated with anything
"hippiesque."
>Hippie consciousness is very different from regular consciousness.
>While regular consciousness would tell me that the orange spherical
>thing thats orange and smells like and orange and tastes like an
>orange thats in my hand right now is an orange, hippie consciousness
>would tell me nothing about it at all. In fact, if I was really
>engulfed in hippie consciousness I might start talking about whether
>your orange is my banana or even my mailbox. Then I might start really
>freaking out pondering what it would be like if everyone who ate an
>orange was really eating one of my mailboxes.
>
>Etc.
yesyesyesyesyes....
I'm not saying that your orange is not an orange, or that your orange is, in
fact
your mailbox, and lo and behold, Dick Clark's face is gazing out at you.....
I'm not assuming that all that is "external" is real, or permanent, or
truth, or
objective or immutable, or easily determined.
>Now, dont get me wrong. Theres a difference between hippie consciousness
>and say, nirvana, shambala, gnosis, etc. The difference is usually
contained
>within a factor of decades, a buttload of training and tons and tons
>of practice. But I digress.
yes, that's on the one hand, on the other are lots and lots of drugs....
>Its easy to say (everything is easy to say) that all is subjective. And
>that things only _appear_ to be what I sense. And that my perception
>does NOT include anything objective.
you're right - it was really easy to say.
>And then theres this; If someone drops a dump truck on my head, it [1]
will
>pop like a ripe honeydew. I will die. Not "no, you will only appear to
die"
to me, you will appear to die. wtf do I know about the "afterlife."
>Not "well, you could be saved by another dumptruck travelling perpendicular
>to the first one and striking it very hard right before it hits your head
>thereby knocking it away". Not "You're already dead, or you might as well
>be, you perceptionless twit". Not "you will be saved if you love God
enough".
yeah, well, apparently everyone dies. I haven't yet, so as far as I'm
concerned,
I'm immortal (until a dumptruck falls on my head, I suppose).
>I will die. My head will pop. This is true. Human heads (like the one
>I have) cannot withstand that kind of concussive force without getting
>smashed.
not having had this happen, you're just speculating. =)
>There is a point where ontological rhetoric meets cold hard reality.
cold hard reality?????
>Its the
>last stop on the 'we all live in different perceptual universes' train.
>We're here, and beyond this there is only religion....
we may be here, and if we are, we're all going to die. Or so I'm told.
I still remain skeptical, despite your dumptrucks, and calling me a hippie,
and using big words like "perceptual."
thbtht
ta
pasquale
Chris
>>When I saw these piercings I unfortunately didn't think to document them.
>
>In the future I recommend that you and every other professional, ethical
>piercer document EVERY hack job that comes into your shop, both written and
>photographic documentation.
And this is so true!
In the lobby of Extremus in KC where we went this week, there was a
logbook of all the pierces it looks as though they've conducted; and
they had many entries of pierces that had come to them that had been
done elsewhere that were wrong; it was very sad; some were way off
center; they had a few that were just *gulp* kinda scary PA's & hood
attempts that just made you feel bad for the person. It was, on the
whole, sad.
CR
Ambient Inc.
>"Language is a virus from outer space, and hearing your name is better than
>seeing your face" --L. Anderson and W. Burroughs
>If it was actually opinion. I have as much a right to say "If you get a
>splinter in your finger, you MUST chop it off IMMEDIATELY before you catch
>HIV. Most doctors dont think that splinters are dangerous, but the FACT
>is that they ARE, and unless you IMMEDIATELY chisel off the digit in
>question, chances are you will DIE."
>
>Admitted, these are just words. But they are words that could carry some
>sharp consequences if taken to the letter. Opinion is subjective of course,
>but when one passes what is inside their head for what is outside their head,
>(the menu for the meal, etc) I think they are making an enormous mistake.
"If you ever have occasion to cut off a finger joint, my dear, don't
consider any instrument but poutry shears. That way you're sure of
cutting through at the joint."
Sorry for allov thee snippage, but I couldn't resist.
yttrx
*snip*
: I still remain skeptical, despite your dumptrucks, and calling me a hippie,
: and using big words like "perceptual."
: thbtht
Now this, this is magick. A butterfly beats its wings in china and a hurricane
occurs in the gulf of mexico...
Pasquale pushes keys with his fingers and coffee sprays out of yttrx's nose...
-----yttrx
heidi
>
> Now you have me thinking ... what a good idea this is... Sue RAB. Who is
> the leader here? Who seems to be the most in line for that position? I
> wonder if they have any assets? Oh boy.
>
Well, i have been accused of thinking I own RAB.
Rebekah has been accused of thinking she's Queen of RAB.
I don't know about Rebekah, but my assets amount to one
very nice bike and a whole lot of debts (i guess those
are liabilities though, huh? :)
let the lawsuits begin! <g>
(the bike isn't really all that nice though)
classic heidi
Geoffrey
>consider any instrument but poutry shears. That way you're sure of
>cutting through at the joint."
>Sorry for allov thee snippage, but I couldn't resist.
>
>
finger snipper" to say the least. :-)
Autoclave the poultry shears. Autoclave the poultry sheers. Autoclave the
poultry sheers.
The previous line was produced by hand. Each sentence was carefully typed
as it appears, no cut or paste was used. No small fluffy animals were
mutated or injured in any way during the production of this post.
Geoffrey
Geoffrey
>let the lawsuits begin! <g>
>(the bike isn't really all that nice though)
>
took all your direction from me and you were mearly hypnotized by me into
performing unatural acts over the internet. I have a few more assets and
would love to defend myself in court. If you promise an actual law suit,
you can say anything you want about me but please make it as sick and
depraved as you can. You may also mention that somewhere in my house is a
picture signed by Paul Booth that says, "Geoffrey, you are the sickest
bastard I have met in my entire career, that last comment will derange me to
the end of my days". The rest of the stuff that will work as material
evidence is just too very strange.
The itallian, heavily tattooed, rotund, packaging materials salesman dressed
up as a debauched geisha photograph susan gave me as a present might be a
start however. Susan gives the sweetest presents.
Geoffrey
TopCat
Len
Susan Scaro
>You may also mention that somewhere in my house is a
>picture signed by Paul Booth that says, "Geoffrey, you are the sickest
>bastard I have met in my entire career, that last comment will derange me
to
>the end of my days". The rest of the stuff that will work as material
>evidence is just too very strange.
>
This is the truth, by the way. Neener Neener, Paul Booth thinks my man is
sick!
>The itallian, heavily tattooed, rotund, packaging materials salesman
dressed
>up as a debauched geisha photograph susan gave me as a present might be a
>start however. Susan gives the sweetest presents.
>
This is true, too - Phil is all those things (italian, heavily tattooed and
a salesman) and all that they imply (insert standard stereotypes for
italians and salesmen). The fact that Jan Seeger was able to convince him to
strip down to a veritable g-string (well, that wasn't that hard I believe)
and wear white-face geisha makeup, red geisha lips (all kind of smudged and
shop-worn) and put on a geisha wig, and like it (he's very proud of that
photo) is a testament to her genius.
-- Susan
http://public.surfree.com/scamp/mytattoos.html
Geoffrey
Look... Dry heat is for sterilizing the Spaulding and Rogers Ear Piercing
guns ... Gawd.. don't you know anything. BTW, I wonder why our S&R fans
have not noticed that another evil product from S&R is ear piercing guns.
(For the uninitiated or those who are simply mentally halt, I do not believe
in using guns or dry heat sterilizers in relationship to human beings )
Geoffrey
TopCat wrote in message <01be090c$36e6b760$98b37780@chris-monteiro>...
heidi
>
> pasquale <pasq...@storm.ca> wrote:
>
[they both wrote lots, but really they were just flirting]
then yttrx typed this:
> I call this perspective, the position that all is subjectivity, that
> everything is created and recreated moment by moment in my own head, that
> all things are defined by the observer 'hippie consciousness'.
>
<high five>
ahem. i now must point out that all appearances to the contrary,
it is pasquale that is the hippie and not me. See, we have argued
the above point *countless* times, and I agree with yttrx, and
mr. pasquale-pants has the "hippie perspective". so, all you
who ever called me a hippie must now recant. You must ignore the
birkenstocks, and the vegetarianism, and the co-op living, and
the tree-hugging. They are meaningless. I am not a hippie.
QED
classic heidi
--
remove NO.SPAM to reply
heidi
>
> yttrx wrote in message <71qdiu$nia$1...@hirame.wwa.com>...
> >I call this perspective, the position that all is subjectivity, that
> >everything is created and recreated moment by moment in my own head, that
> >all things are defined by the observer 'hippie consciousness'.
>
> "hippiesque."
>
HEY! that's just mean... I feel slighted, as you are associated
with one rumored-to-be-a-hippy (though, I believe I have just
recently proven otherwise), and should be darn proud of it!
hrumph
sure, you just go and flirt with yttrx, you, you, brat!
classic heidi, who has much to say on the topic of the actual
discussion, but a) came in late and b) would rather taunt the
discussers <g>
Obscurities
Nina wrote in message <363c85b6...@news.okay.net>...
>(emailed and posted to RAB)
>
>Todd,
>
>since you advertised your aftercare instructions as The Way To Go(TM),
>I went and took a look at them. What I found was a colorful mix of
>facts, medical half-knowledge, and utter BS.
>
>Most importantly, you confuse inflammation and infection.
>
>Inflammation is the body's reaction to any damage. It is completely
>normal and it is even the main requirement for proper healing.
>Because the bloodflow is greatly increased (which can be seen as
>redness and felt as warmth), immune cells, oxygen and other substances
>needed for healing can access the site of the damage more easily .
>Inflammation is needed to get rid of an infection!
>
>Infection is the invasion of the body with bacteria or other
>infectious agents.The body *reacts* to this with inflammation, usually
>of a purulent nature (with pus).
>
>You say:
>> (My mehtods are tried and tested
>> based on my 12 years experience piercing and they often differ from
>> after-care given by less experienced piercers).
>
>I think it is really sad that after those twelve years you still
>demonstrate such fundamental lack of basic medical knowledge that any
>medical technician or nurse would be required to have. Yet you have
>the nerve to put your views above those of other piercers and even
>doctors.
>From a *really* experienced piercer, I would ask not only perfect
>placement of jewellery, but also some basic knowledge of wound healing
>and wound treatment, inflammatory processes, infection, and proper
>treatment of infection.
>
>The advice you give on how to deal with infection is dangerous and
>could lead to further complications!
>This is also why I am posting this to rec.arts.bodyart at the same
>time, since this is where you advertised your views.
>
>Let's take a look at how I came to these statements:
>
>> How you heal a piercing can drastically speed up, or slow down, your
>> healing time as well as how healthy you are( immune system wise).
>> Drinking and doing drugs will dramatically reduce your immune
>> system. This can mean up to 3 times as long in healing a piercing.
>> Stress can also be a contributor to healing times slowing down.
>
>All of this is true.
>
>> Enough stress alone can lead to an infection
>
>No. Bacteria lead to infection. Stress can help bacteria
>settle in.
>Stress weakens the immune system, but that alone does not make an
>infection. You still need bacteria. Which means that stress
>facilitates the occurrence of an infection, but it certainly does not
>lead to it.
>
>> Another factor which few people pay attention to is clothing that
>> they wear. Anything that puts pressure on a piercing can cause it to
>> migrate, become infected, and or completely reject out of the body,
>> even after it is fully healed; It just takes longer when it's
>> healed, sometimes up to 10 years . Folds of the body have to be
>> considered as well, such as labial folds or folds around the navel.
>
>This is also true, and very important.
>
>>Niobium, which tends to lose color in certain
>> people's body's due to their high acid body type (which can be
>> altered with herbs).
>
>What is a "high acid body type" and why and how do you think herbs
>can alter it?
>I would like to see studies in which jewelry hes been exposed to
>solutions of different pH and the changes over time noted, studies
>with experimental and control herbal preparations.
>How did this correspond to the pH that can be reached on skin or in
>blood?
>
>Blood pH is 7.40 +- 0,015. That does not leave much room for
>deviation. If it goes much higher or lower, you die.
>Skin pH is around 5.5,
>
>> Antibacterial soap ,but be sure it is something VERY mild; NOT a
>> name brand such as Dial, Lever 2000, or soft soap. Those are too
>> strong. There are some excellent ones from herbal ingredients.
>> Something pH balanced, and with NO perfume is preferred. Generic
>> brands are OK sometimes.
>
>pH balanced is good, but why should one wash their whole body with
>*antibacterial* soap? This disrupts the natural and necessary
>bacterial flora of the skin which facilitates infections not only on
>the piercing but everywhere else. Dermatophytes are *waiting* for
>those skin conditions.
>Actually, the bacteria on your skin are in a delicate balance. They
>are adjusted to the conditions on your skin. This makes it difficult
>for harmful bacteria to grow because there is an existing population
>of good bacteria, and harmful bacteria are usually not well enough
>adjusted to skin conditions to compete with the skin flora. Hence, as
>long as the skin flora is there, harmful bacteria will not be a
>problem. If you kill the good bacteria, you give the harmful germs a
>chance.
>Bacteria as such are not *bad*. Without the E. coli in your digestive
>tract you would get Vitamin K deficiency which would lead to blood
>clotting disorder.
>
>> Peroxyl, or a VERY mild mouthwash, made from herbal ingredients with
>> NO alcohol or chemical cleansing agents in the mouthwash; for oral
>> piercing's.
>
>Herbal ingredients?? Peroxyl (TM) by Colgate contains 1.5% hydrogen
>peroxide which is great for killing both germs and newly grown cells
>alike!
>Hydrogen peroxide is used as a 3% solution to clean heavily infected
>wounds because it foams and thus reaches every crevice.
>It is *never* used as an infection prophylactic because it also kills
>cells.
>At 10%, it leaves white marks on your skin. At 30 %, it eats your skin
>away.
>
>> When you take your shower, be sure to either pull your hair up out
>> of the way, or wash it first. If you can wash it every 12 hours too,
>> then do so. Hair has many germs,
>
>True!
>
>(use of regular shampoo)
>> This can also lead to inflammation, and inflammation leads
>> to infection.
>
>BS. Inflammation is a natural *reaction* to any irritation or damage.
>It is needed to get rid of infectious agents. Its goal is to create an
>environment that (in the case of an infection) is no longer favorable
>for bacterial growth, and to bring everything that is necessary to
>fight the irritation and to repair the damage to the site *fast*.
>Infection leads to inflammation, not the other way round!
>
>> You need to get some hydra-cortisone and put
>> this into the piercing after your shower. This will get rid of the
>> inflammation and hopefully avoid a visit to a doctor to get a
>> prescription for an infection.
>
>It will get rid of the *signs* of infection. What you get is a
>cosmetic effect in that the area no longer looks and feels inflamed.
>But at the same time you reduce the body's ability to fight the
>infection.
>I see how you came to believe that cortisone would be the solution to
>the problem, seeing how you think that inflammation leads to infection
>and thus anything that inhibits inflammation would also prevent
>infection. But you are wrong.
>Using hydrocortisone on an infected piercing is treating symptoms
>rather than causes.
>
>> It also means you just
>> disinfected your body and whatever germs you had are not going being
>> washed into the piercing.
>
>You also got rid of the good germs that prevent the bad germs from
>settling in.
>
>> 2nd The "crusty" phase. This means it will seep body matter, the
>> same type that comes out after picking a pimple.
>
>ROTFLMAO. What comes out of a pimple is either sebum, consisting of
>fat and wax made by sebaceous glands, or it's pus that formed because
>a sebaceous gland has become infected.
>What comes out of a piercing is lymph and interstitial fluid mixed
>with cell debris.
>
>> To prevent dryness, and / or the
>> potential ripping that can happen get some Elizabeth Arden's
>> Ceremide Time Complex "eyes"(this can be found in higher -end
>> Make-up counters at Department stores for about $40 for 60 doses)
>
>There are lots of other ways to prevent dryness without going broke.
>There are plenty of hypoallergenic moisturizers on the market.
>
>> For the first three months AFTER healing; you still need showers
>> twice a day. They CAN be three times a day if you want during this
>> three month after healing period. The same is true for a skin (not
>> oral) stretching. Take showers 2-3 times a day for three months
>> after the stretching while it normalizes.
>
>Showering the whole body is completely unnecessary for cleaning a
>*single* piercing.
>
>> Regular soaps are too
>> strong and leave residue on the body, and IN your piercings.
>
>All soaps do that if you do not rinse them off thoroughly.
>
> > Stopping smoking during
>> the healing of the piercing does nothing to aid the piercing.
>
>BS. Nicotine constricts blood vessels and thus inhibits healing as
>the supply of everything needed for proper healing is cut down.
>Nicotine also is eliminated from the body very fast, otherwise there
>would be no chain smokers.
>
>> Overuse with peroxyl can cause a bleeding ulcer in your tongue.
>
>How does it do that if it's so *very mild* and made of *only herbal
>ingredients*?
>
>> The
>> alcohol causes an inflammatory reaction and can cause a scar tissue
>> to form at the piercing, and even such severe swelling that the
>> tongue NEVER goes back to its normal size.
>
>Or it might explode. LMAO. This (swelling that never goes away)
>happens only when a chronic edema (chronic in this case meaning
>months) persists because lymph drainage is blocked. The body then
>starts filling the water gaps with connective tissue that will not
>disappear. It's called "elephantiasis".
>Alcohol does cause an inflammatory reaction because it kills cells,
>but I very strongly doubt that it will cause a giant tongue.
>
>> Infections:
>>
>> Go to the doctor as FAST as possible. They WILL prescribe some type
>> of oral antibiotic. This is NOT enough. You need to INSIST that they
>> also prescribe a 60 GM hydra-cortisone with 0.5% Chlorimycin. This
>> is the ONLY thing that gets rid of almost all infections.
>
>not of the infection. Here's link on Hydrocortisone:
>
>http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/cortico3.html
>
>Oral antibiotics are far better than topical ointments because they
>clear up the infection from the inside.
>
>If you think that your customers need to insist on getting the
>medication that YOU think is best, why don't you go to med school,
>become a doctor and prescribe it yourself? Im afraid you'd have to
>study some pharmacology first though.
>Besides, anyone who walked into a dioctor's office telling him what to
>prescribe for the condition that they have already diagnosed on
>himself after your directions would make themselves look like an
>arrogant fool.
>
>>If it does
>> not, you need to get to a hospital fast, as you have gotten a staph
>> infection, or something worse, that can eat up your tissue.
>
>
>> Chlorimycin is an antibacterial, anti fungal, anti-virus agent.
>
>
>>The
>> Hydra-cortisone gets rid of the inflammation that accompanies the
>> infection so that healing can take place.
>
>is why, with prolonged use of corticosteroid creams, the skin becomes
>thinner.
>
>(snip list of things to take)
>
>Oh good, I won't have to eat anything else because I will be full
>from all the pills! Do you realize that this huge list looks pretty
>ridiculous considering that a piercing is a relatively small wound and
>not an organ transplantation?
>A bucketful of pills will not prevent getting an infection from
>touching a piercing with dirty hands!
>
>> Most piercing's take 4-6 weeks to heal. The exception's are:
>> tongue's at one to three weeks, Navel's at 6-12 weeks. Deep cock
>> head piercing's such as the ampallange and appadravia that can take
>> from 3-6 months.Genital and nipple piercing's done in an
>> weeks for 6 GA. 4 and 2 GA PA piercing's will heal in 2 weeks, and
>> reverse PA's of this GA heal in 5-6 weeks. Ampallange's and
>> appadravia's are ideally done in 4 GA. At this size, they heal in
>> 6-8 weeks.
>
>I don't think that any of those piercings are really healed after the
>time you state, except for maybe the tongue. Another "exception" is:
>ear cartilage 3-6 months. What are "most" piercings then?
>
>> (contact org...@spiritone.com for wood jewelry), and Ivory. Don't
>> be shocked. Many animals have Ivory besides elephants and I'd never
>> condon destroying them for their Ivory.
>
>And what animals do you know that will cheerfully give away their
>ivory? Ivory is actually tooth material, like from elephants and
>walruses, which are both hunted for it.
>Ivory from animals that died a natural death could never cover the
>demand, by the way.
>
>I think a major revision of the aftercare section on your homepage is
>badly necessary.
>
>
>Nina
>
>
>-
>"Communication" is the magic word!
> -Steffen (my husband)
>About me: http://nina.baltes.8m.com
>Please remove "damn.spam." to send me email
Geoffrey
>birkenstocks, and the vegetarianism,
>and the co-op living,
Organized plant hater
>and
>the tree-hugging.
Hypocrite ... you would eat that tree in a heartbeat wouldn't you or at
least it's flesh leaving only it's skeleton behind ?
Or ...
OH MY GOD ... you are hugging the skeleton? You are a vegeto-necrophiliac?
Geoffrey
heidi
>
> >the tree-hugging.
> Hypocrite ... you would eat that tree in a heartbeat wouldn't you or at
> least it's flesh leaving only it's skeleton behind ?
>
> Or ...
>
> OH MY GOD ... you are hugging the skeleton? You are a vegeto-necrophiliac?
>
hahahaha!!!!!
well, a true uber-hippy (I know a few) would tout the
living foods regimen. I, not being a hippy, like
my plants both living and dead. Of course, I don't
always eat the ones I kill with my black thumb...
classic heidi
Ambient Inc.
<ge...@NOT.FOR.SPAM.tiac.net> wrote:
>>"If you ever have occasion to cut off a finger joint, my dear, don't
>>consider any instrument but poutry shears. That way you're sure of
>>cutting through at the joint."
>>Sorry for allov thee snippage, but I couldn't resist.
>Obviously you are a pedant who does not care for health. An "old school
>finger snipper" to say the least. :-)
>Autoclave the poultry shears. Autoclave the poultry sheers. Autoclave the
>poultry sheers.
>The previous line was produced by hand. Each sentence was carefully typed
>as it appears, no cut or paste was used. No small fluffy animals were
>mutated or injured in any way during the production of this post.
First reaction:
Fuck autoclaves. Who needs 'em? I just stick 'em in thee oven thee
next time I roast a turkey, and they're fine.
Second Reaction:
For those unfamiliar, I was quoting William S Burroughs from his story
"Finger", and thee above post was an exercise (I didn't say a
successful exercise!) in sardonic humour.
TopCat
hands.
Len
PS Damn, I should have stuck a :-) at the end of that message!
Geoffrey <ge...@NOT.FOR.SPAM.tiac.net> wrote in article
<71tc5p$7...@news-central.tiac.net>...
> Oh man ... Oh god ... I can not believe you said that.
>
> Look... Dry heat is for sterilizing the Spaulding and Rogers Ear Piercing
> guns ... Gawd.. don't you know anything. BTW, I wonder why our S&R fans
> have not noticed that another evil product from S&R is ear piercing guns.
>
> (For the uninitiated or those who are simply mentally halt, I do not
believe
> in using guns or dry heat sterilizers in relationship to human beings )
>
> Geoffrey
>
> TopCat wrote in message <01be090c$36e6b760$98b37780@chris-monteiro>...
> >Autoclaves are, like, so yesterday! Get with it, use dry heat !!
> >
> >Len
> >
> >> Autoclave the poultry shears. Autoclave the poultry sheers.
Autoclave
> >the
> >> poultry sheers.
> >>
> >> The previous line was produced by hand. Each sentence was carefully
> >typed
> >> as it appears, no cut or paste was used. No small fluffy animals were
> >> mutated or injured in any way during the production of this post.
> >>
> >> Geoffrey
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
Susan Scaro
--
-- Susan
http://public.surfree.com/scamp/mytattoos.html
TopCat wrote in message <01be098d$0572c940$5bb37780@chris-monteiro>...
Nina
>BRAVO!!!! from the staff at Obscurities.
Thank you :-).
I wonder why Todd hasn't commented. I take it as silent agreement :->
Nina
--
I think the same principles are at work everywhere. There is a general
tendency to shrivel. - Geoffrey, Nov. 6, 1998
I just moved my homepage to:
http://members.xoom.com/critterwoman
Pokieslo
along with the New body Modification Forum bbs. His topics range from the use
of Lavender to pevent infection to Designer Vaginas. He really has the kids
believing he is the Messia and that unless they are getting scapeled piercings
in 4 ga. or bigger they are not getting properly pierced. I can't believe what
he get's away with, and you who are trying to make a living at piercing your
customers safetly sit back and let him make a mochery of you and ruin your
industry. When you let a piercer act like a doctor proscibing drugs and
treatment govertment authorities sooner or later will step in and just ban
piercing all together. It was that way with tatooing in NY!
Judith Grunberger
Todd is an adult and can say whatever he wants in a public forum. he is
not "getting away" with anything, because that would imply that he's not
allowed to do it in the first place.
But I'm going to sue the rab anyway, so what's it to you?
Rebekah
<he...@NO.SPAM.tristan.physics.wisc.edu> wrote:
>Well, i have been accused of thinking I own RAB.
>
>Rebekah has been accused of thinking she's Queen of RAB.
>
>I don't know about Rebekah, but my assets amount to one
>very nice bike and a whole lot of debts (i guess those
>are liabilities though, huh? :)
>
>let the lawsuits begin! <g>
>(the bike isn't really all that nice though)
>
>classic heidi
I don't even have a crown :(
I have a RAB tattoo, and a RABbit candle holder, and another rabbit
candle holder that I got for Maura.
And I have a cat that sends virtual belly rubs to Wendy's and Anna's
cats, and who has no belly button that I can see :(
~ Rebekah, who also will have a tattoo of her lawyer's card on her
arm, just to keep him on her good side :)