Ladies: your opinions on frenum piercings?
Grant Green
I'm new to this newsgroup and piercing in general, so my apologies if this
isn't the right place to post the following question:
For my first piercing, I'm thinking about a frenum (maybe start with a 12 or
10 gauge 1/2" barbell, but I haven't spoken to a piercer yet so I'm not 100%
sure). I reckon it could be a fun surprise for my girlfriend...but I
wouldn't want to get one if she isn't going to enjoy it, or at least not be
bothered by it.
So does anyone have any opinions, thoughts, even anecdotal evidence about
how women enjoy the feel of a frenum piercing when having sex. Does it feel
good, or is it uncomfortable, or does it not make much difference at all?
In the forums I've seen, I haven't read any female opinions on the matter --
just those of guys who say "she loved it!"... and given how much pride may
be at stake for some of these folks, I'm not necessarily going to take their
word as gospel!
So if there are any ladies out there with an opinion, I'd like to hear what
you think!
Cheers,
~G
Kavin Taylor
>.but I
> wouldn't want to get one if she isn't going to enjoy it, or at least not be
> bothered by it.
>
>
Kavin
Grant Green
>> wouldn't want to get one if she isn't going to enjoy it, or at least not be
>> bothered by it.
>>
>>
> You get the piercing for yourself. Period.
>
>
> Kavin
>
Point understood, Kavin -- but don't for a second think that the only reason
I'm getting this piercing because I think my girlfriend would like it! I'm
getting it primarily because I want to get it. I just happen to be
considerate enough of my girlfriend that I would hold off getting the
piercing if it was likely to cause her discomfort during sex. I doubt it
will, but it never hurts to canvass opinion...
Cheers,
~G
jacqui{JB}
news:B824852B.1896%grant...@hotmail.com...
<snip>
> For my first piercing, I'm thinking about a frenum (maybe
> start with a 12 or 10 gauge 1/2" barbell, but I haven't
> spoken to a piercer yet so I'm not 100% sure). I reckon
> it could be a fun surprise for my girlfriend...but I wouldn't
> want to get one if she isn't going to enjoy it, or at least not
> be bothered by it.
>
> So does anyone have any opinions, thoughts, even anecdotal
> evidence about how women enjoy the feel of a frenum
> piercing when having sex. Does it feel good, or is it
> uncomfortable, or does it not make much difference at all?
<snip>
Yes. No one but your girlfriend is going to be able to answer this
question *for her*, because each person's experience is different.
And you do realize that you're not going to be able to have sex for
a while after you're pierced, right?
--
jacqui{JB}
"The polite, civil, adult thing to do about such a topic is to avoid
it in PUBLIC discourse. This way, your screams and the fountains of
blood won't disturb the people who are trying to hold a calm
conversation about topics in which they can find common ground."
(Author Unknown)
Kavin Taylor
<snip>
Jacqui, please count the number of lines in your sig. and tell us
by how many you have exceeded our limit.
Kavin
~G
>> evidence about how women enjoy the feel of a frenum
>> piercing when having sex. Does it feel good, or is it
>> uncomfortable, or does it not make much difference at all?
> <snip>
>
> Yes. No one but your girlfriend is going to be able to answer this
> question *for her*, because each person's experience is different.
>
> And you do realize that you're not going to be able to have sex for
> a while after you're pierced, right?
>
Gee, all you folks keep second-guessing me! Let me lay your apparent
concerns to rest:
1/ I am secure in my reasons for getting a piercing, I am not doing it in
some misguided attempt to please someone else. Thanks for checking, though,
Kavin :-)
2/ I've researched everything I can about piercing, the risks involved,
aftercare, etc.; I have a decent grasp of what's involved in the procedure;
I understand the concept of a healing period; and I understand what's
required to minimize risk of infection and/or aggravation of the piercing
during that period.
3/ I'm fully aware that there are no definitive answers to questions of
subjective experience, and that everyone is a unique individual who reacts
differently. I'm not looking for someone to tell me how my girlfriend will
like my piercing... I'm hoping someone will share with me their opinion and
experiences so I can go into this as well-informed as possible. That's all.
Just a very straightforward, general canvassing of opinion.
But thanks for your concerns, folks, I do appreciate you responding to my
message. Can anyone answer my question though? :-)
Cheers,
~G
Kavin Taylor
>
> Can anyone answer my question though? :-)
>
We have "more" than answered your question, as you have noted.
What, are you looking for porn?
Do you want one of the women here to say it just makes her wet
with anticipation? Would you like to here that she is excited
because with that 12g ring, he has more than doubled his mass?
Or maybe one here will tell you she didn't even notice he was
pierced until he wiped his dick off on the sheets and she caught
the glint in the moonlight. There's always the one that says "No
way, not in this lifetime." Perhaps she's the one that thinks it
tickles her pussy.
There. That's probably as close to what you are wanting as you
will get. Or deserve.
Kavin
i'll teach you to turn away.
~> everyone is a unique individual
this is the only incorrect part of your post.
lish
cr...@got.net "how sad it is for other people
35.1% / 29 that they cannot appreciate our genius." -hc
Lady Diana
> how women enjoy the feel of a frenum piercing when having sex. Does it
feel
> good, or is it uncomfortable, or does it not make much difference at all?
I like 'em. I have a (female) friend who detests penis piercings...they
cause her incredible pain.
Some women bleed (after intercourse with a pierced guy). Some don't. Some
that did bleed stop bleeding after, uh, "regular use" of the piercing.
Not very helpful, was it? :p
Diana
i'll teach you to turn away.
LD> Some women bleed (after intercourse with a pierced guy). Some don't. S
LD> that did bleed stop bleeding after, uh, "regular use" of the piercing.
you just have to build up a callus, you see.
how appealing.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>Lady Diana <anon...@bogus.to> wrote:
>LD> Some women bleed (after intercourse with a pierced guy). Some don't. S
>LD> that did bleed stop bleeding after, uh, "regular use" of the piercing.
>
> you just have to build up a callus, you see.
>
> how appealing.
Not to worry, you can always remove it with a pumice stone.
to reply by email, remove the 4 from the return addy
i'll teach you to turn away.
pumice stick, more like.
Tabaqui
"i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
>
> psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
> p> <cr...@got.net> wrote:
> > you just have to build up a callus, you see.
> p> Not to worry, you can always remove it with a pumice stone.
>
> pumice stick, more like.
Yaaaargh!! Go away now, Lish, i've had enough. :)
TQ
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> <cr...@got.net> wrote:
>> you just have to build up a callus, you see.
>p> Not to worry, you can always remove it with a pumice stone.
>
> pumice stick, more like.
You know... There just might be a market for various "pumice
attachments" for vibrators.
<cue announcer>
Ladies, has your man's genital piercing's irritated you to the point
where you have become one tough, insensitive cunt? Has your "Tunnel of
Love" become so paved over with calluses that you couldn't feel an empty
18 wheeler bouncing through at 90 mph? Try our VocanicPumicator(tm)!!!
It's coarse and rough (just like your boyfriend) and it's curved, so as
to efficiently remove thick, dead skin from all those hard to reach
places. We guarantee that with regular use, your Puss will become so
tender and sensitive that you'll be climbing the walls and begging for
mercy at even the thought of his touch.
The VocanicPumicator(tm) comes in five sizes, including a purse size
TravelPumicator[tm] for when you need a little "touch up "at the office
or on the road, and it cums in a variety of femine colors. Not only
will it fit you and your active lifestyle perfectly, it will also look
very attractive lying next to that new lamp from Ikea on your night
stand.
You can purchase your Pumicator(tm) at fine piercing emporiums, BDSM
parties and through a network of shady sidewalk vendors across America.
Towels, bandages, creams, ointments, salves and medical insurence not
included.
<and cut>
Whaddaya thin? We could get rich, eh?
Lady Diana
> attachments" for vibrators.
>
> <cue announcer>
> <and cut>
>
> Whaddaya thin? We could get rich, eh?
> to reply by email, remove the 4 from the return addy
You know...this is *all* my fault....
Aw jeez.
Diana (who doesn't know whether to laugh or gag)
psyam
wrote:
Don't be too hard on yourself. Personally, I blame Lish. ;^)
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> Don't be too hard on yourself. Personally, I blame Lish. ;^)
as well you should.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> Don't be too hard on yourself. Personally, I blame Lish. ;^)
>
> as well you should.
Spoken like a true champion.
bit-b...@maney.org
[...]
: Diana (who doesn't know whether to laugh or gag)
Umm... am I just too vanilla or would gagging on a vibrator (made of
pumice or not wouldn't matter I'd think) mean that you were somehow
"doing it wrong"?
fpsm
--
| Fredrich P. Maney maney at maney dot org |
| Do NOT send me HTML formatted E-mail or copies of netnews posts! |
| Address in header is a spamtrap. Use one in signature for replies. |
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psyam
>On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:06:52 GMT in rec.arts.bodyart Lady Diana wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>: Diana (who doesn't know whether to laugh or gag)
>
>Umm... am I just too vanilla or would gagging on a vibrator (made of
>pumice or not wouldn't matter I'd think) mean that you were somehow
>"doing it wrong"?
Some people just refuse to read the friggen manual.
Lady Diana
>
> : Diana (who doesn't know whether to laugh or gag)
>
> Umm... am I just too vanilla or would gagging on a vibrator (made of
> pumice or not wouldn't matter I'd think) mean that you were somehow
> "doing it wrong"?
Oh, I dunno...*some* people like that sort of thing.
*rolls eyes*
Diana
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> Spoken like a true champion.
who was it questioning the purpose of this newsgroup?
i offer [further] proof.
.
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:06:52 GMT in rec.arts.bodyart Lady Diana wrote:
> [...]
> : Diana (who doesn't know whether to laugh or gag)
> Umm... am I just too vanilla or would gagging on a vibrator (made of
> pumice or not wouldn't matter I'd think) mean that you were somehow
> "doing it wrong"?
You're too vanilla. Videos on the matter sell for over fiddy bux.
-----.
--
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and
its filled with people who are filled with shit and the
vermin of the world inhabit it
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> <cr...@got.net> wrote:
>> as well you should.
>p> Spoken like a true champion.
>
> who was it questioning the purpose of this newsgroup?
Beats me. Seems like it's an endless parade. Was there someone in
specific you were thinking of?
>
> i offer [further] proof.
But can ya dance?
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> But can ya dance?
the closest i've been is doing mock-straightedge dances in a
friend's living room & nearly dislocating my shoulder during a rather
frenetic "lawnmower".
bit-b...@maney.org
:> [...]
: *rolls eyes*
Hrmm... guess I just need to add that to the list of things that
simply don't make sense to me (like vegetarians eating things
that aren't meat but taste like meat). Oh well, different strokes
for different folks.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> But can ya dance?
>
> the closest i've been is doing mock-straightedge dances in a
>friend's living room & nearly dislocating my shoulder during a rather
>frenetic "lawnmower".
Well.... given my own abilities in this area, I'd definitely have to
call energetic jumping, spinning, twisting and flailing in anything
remotely resembling synchronization to a beat or rhythm "dancing".
BTW:.... I'm friggen old. Does "lawnmower" refer to the Dead Kennedy's
tune; a specific set of straightedge moves, like flailing your arms
wildly in all directions as fast and violently as possible with no
regard to who you come into contact with; or is it a band I've never
heard of?
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> BTW:.... I'm friggen old. Does "lawnmower" refer to the Dead Kennedy's
p> tune; a specific set of straightedge moves, like flailing your arms
p> wildly in all directions as fast and violently as possible with no
no.
"lawnmower" refers to a straightedge dance called the "lawnmower".
go ask a junkie to demonstrate - they know ALL the moves.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> BTW:.... I'm friggen old. Does "lawnmower" refer to the Dead Kennedy's
>p> tune; a specific set of straightedge moves, like flailing your arms
>p> wildly in all directions as fast and violently as possible with no
>
> no.
>
> "lawnmower" refers to a straightedge dance called the "lawnmower".
OK, so I was close with the second guess, I mean.. you said you almost
dislocated your shoulder, eh? Had to be some arm flailing in there
somewhere.
>
> go ask a junkie to demonstrate - they know ALL the moves.
No prob, except.... wouldn't "junkie" and "straightedge" be mutually
exclusive terms?
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> No prob, except.... wouldn't "junkie" and "straightedge" be mutually
p> exclusive terms?
ahahahahahahah
yttrx, you reading this?
Willow
>i'll teach you to turn away <cr...@got.net> wrote:
> > go ask a junkie to demonstrate - they know ALL the moves.
>
> No prob, except.... wouldn't "junkie" and "straightedge" be mutually
> exclusive terms?
Are you for real?
psyam
Yeah, I absolutely am. I'm also, as I said, old. My guess is that I'm
probably "old enough to be your daddy". Hell... I'm old enough to be a
granddaddy. Since I'm not into the punk/hardcore/straightedge scene (or
any other scene for that matter), I certainly lack immediate familiarity
with some of the nuance of current linguistic development in that area.
That doesn't mean I disrespect the scene, it's participants, it's music
or it's conventions..
So, dorky as I am, (and I'm sure I'm 100% dorky) to me the term "junkie"
still refers to "addict". It was an easy mistake to make, because the
few friends of mine that actually use Heroin on a regular basis, or
folks I know who used to use it a lot, actually do refer to themselves,
on occasion, as "junkies".
Obviously, the term "junkie" is also often used to signify being an
intense fan of something --like I'm a "chocolate junkie". It may have
other cultural references that I'm unaware of, too.
But since the term "Straight edge", is used, to the best of my
understanding, to denote a specific subset of Hardcore Punk culture
that eschews all personal involvement with drugs, alcohol and even sex.
I took the term "junkie" to signify drug use.
So to my archaic frame of reference --not knowing much about Lish other
than to know she's bright and seems to genuinely enjoy copping an
arrogent attitude-- I thought she might be goofing with me by basically
telling me to "go ask someone who won't know because they aren't part of
the scene" what a friggen "lawnmower" dance was.
Of course, I could be totally wrong about my understanding of the term
"straightedge" too. Weirder things have happened in my life, as have
things of far greater consequence.
Jeeeesh.... Kids today.... When I was your age I had to drive 10 miles
through the snow in order to cop a dime bag, I was happy to have it.
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> So to my archaic frame of reference --not knowing much about Lish other
p> than to know she's bright and seems to genuinely enjoy copping an
p> arrogent attitude-- I thought she might be goofing with me by basically
oh, i'm not copping any attitude. the arrogance is PURE & TRUE in
this one, sugar.
anyhow, i'll give. the term "straightedge" is basically a joke -
i've heard people claim it all the way from the never-done-a-drug vegans
to people who regularly smoke & live on coffee but have quit heroin.
furthermore, calling yourself "straightedge" these days also seems to mean
you have specific musical tastes & like to do that weird run-in-a-circle
pseudo-mosh thing at punk shows.
so my comment to ask a junkie relates to the idiocy of the term
being used by pretty much everyone at some point. except yttrx. he'd never
say that.
for your personal information, i've never done a drug stronger
than advil, never imbibed any alcohol (*any*), i don't smoke, & i avoid
caffeine. but the only time i use the term "straightedge" is with humor.
or cruel, cruel mocking.
anyhow, i'm cXe. RIGHT GUYS!@#?!@?
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> So to my archaic frame of reference --not knowing much about Lish other
>p> than to know she's bright and seems to genuinely enjoy copping an
>p> arrogent attitude-- I thought she might be goofing with me by basically
>
> oh, i'm not copping any attitude. the arrogance is PURE & TRUE in
>this one, sugar.
I love it when you call me sugar, SweetiePie. ;^)
> anyhow, i'll give.
That's so cool. I wasn't at all sure that you would. Thanks.
>the term "straightedge" is basically a joke -
>i've heard people claim it all the way from the never-done-a-drug vegans
>to people who regularly smoke & live on coffee but have quit heroin.
>furthermore, calling yourself "straightedge" these days also seems to mean
>you have specific musical tastes & like to do that weird run-in-a-circle
>pseudo-mosh thing at punk shows.
Ahhh...
> so my comment to ask a junkie relates to the idiocy of the term
>being used by pretty much everyone at some point. except yttrx. he'd never
>say that.
So, I was close in my guestimation of your usage. Not on the mark, but
in the ball park. Not bad for a clueless old fool, if I do say so
myself.
>
> for your personal information, i've never done a drug stronger
>than advil, never imbibed any alcohol (*any*), i don't smoke, & i avoid
>caffeine. but the only time i use the term "straightedge" is with humor.
That's interesting. I never thought about your personal preferences in
regard to consciousness altering chemistry before, but given the
unexpected turn in the conversation, I was beginning to wonder about the
significance of the "horse" on your back.
For your personal information --not that you'd care, ever-- I'm drinking
a cup of coffee as we speak. I occasionally drink a few beers, too, but
have been basically clean and straight for three years now. Prior to
that, I was ready, willing and pretty darn eager to do whatever was on
the table --but my preference was definitely 420 and Psychadelics I had
a pretty intense committment to constantly twisting the Seretonin and
Dopamine knobs for a lot of years. You know... "The Road of Excess
leads to the Palace of Wisdom" kinda deal. Good news/ Bad news with
that plan.
And the only time I use the term "straightedge" is if I'm using a
machined impliment to help me draw a "non wavy" line on something.
> or cruel, cruel mocking.
Welll... Don't go changing, trying to please me.
> anyhow, i'm cXe. RIGHT GUYS!@#?!@?
Great.... Throw in another term I'm totally unfamiliar with in order to
rub my face in my ignorence.
BTW: You never answered the question. In terms of dance, what the fuck
is a "lawnmower"?
bit-b...@maney.org
[...]
: for your personal information, i've never done a drug stronger
: than advil, never imbibed any alcohol (*any*), i don't smoke, & i avoid
: caffeine. but the only time i use the term "straightedge" is with humor.
No cough syrup?
[...]
i'll teach you to turn away.
bmo> :18:12 GMT in rec.arts.bodyart i'll teach you to turn away. wrote:
bmo> : for your personal information, i've never done a drug stronge
bmo> : than advil, never imbibed any alcohol (*any*), i don't smoke, & i av
bmo> : caffeine. but the only time i use the term "straightedge" is with hu
bmo> No cough syrup?
hm. i was probably given it as a child, but i don't recall the
last time, if so. i haven't bought any myself, ever.
is cough syrup stronger than advil?
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> regard to consciousness altering chemistry before, but given the
p> unexpected turn in the conversation, I was beginning to wonder about the
p> significance of the "horse" on your back.
the animal was around before the drug term, you know.
p> Welll... Don't go changing, trying to please me.
i don't want clever conversation. i never want to work that hard.
p> BTW: You never answered the question. In terms of dance, what the fuck
p> is a "lawnmower"?
describe "green" to a blind person.
go ask someone to demonstrate. you can't explain a dance on
usenet.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> regard to consciousness altering chemistry before, but given the
>p> unexpected turn in the conversation, I was beginning to wonder about the
>p> significance of the "horse" on your back.
>
> the animal was around before the drug term, you know.
I know. That doesn't mean doo doo in terms of any particular
individuals use of it as a symbol though --you know that. Although,
since I do "know" you well enough to know you don't approve of ripping
off the symbols of other cultures just because they look cool, I figured
it was an unlikely possability.
>
>p> Welll... Don't go changing, trying to please me.
>
> i don't want clever conversation. i never want to work that hard.
Sorry.
Bad jokes, inappropriate comments, oblique references, unsolicited
stories and fables as well as extended runs of improvised manic humor
are effortless for me --as are angry rants at events that stimulate a
sense of personal outrage. They just happen. To my great good fortune,
some folks appreciate (or tolerate) this crap enough to call me
"friend".
>p> BTW: You never answered the question. In terms of dance, what the fuck
>p> is a "lawnmower"?
>
> describe "green" to a blind person.
Haha... I use this phrase, along with "what does a peach taste like?"
in various conversations where I'm discussing the experiential aspects
of "knowing" --usually in terms of discerning aspects/domains/states of
our own consciousness.
> go ask someone to demonstrate. you can't explain a dance on
>usenet.
You put your right foot in
You take your right foot out
You put your right foot in
And you shake it all about
Ya do the Hokey Pokey
And you turn yourSelf around
That's what it's all about =8^D
i'll teach you to turn away.
p> off the symbols of other cultures just because they look cool, I figur
p> it was an unlikely possability.
i don't approve of that? really?
it's more that i don't care, really. people can rip off whatever
they want; it doesn't bother me.
don't mistake my mocking for disapproval. i mock without
prejudice.
>p> Welll... Don't go changing, trying to please me.
>
> i don't want clever conversation. i never want to work that hard.
p> Sorry.
wow, you have no idea what just happened there, do you.
p> Haha... I use this phrase, along with "what does a peach taste like?"
i know a pear tastes like sweet sand. NAME THAT REFERENCE
> go ask someone to demonstrate. you can't explain a dance on
>usenet.
p> You put your right foot in
p> You take your right foot out
if you consider the hokey pokey to be a dance, you've got farther
to go than i thought.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
> don't mistake my mocking for disapproval. i mock without
>prejudice.
Just out of curiosity, what is the experience of "mocking" like to you?
I mean, you take such pride in it, I can relate to that, believe me, but
i don't seem to apply the mode as broadly as you do. I tend to mock
what I disapprove of, and "kid" or "tease" what I care about, but find
amusing, even with it's flaws. To me that would mean that I definitely
mock with prejudice.
And when I'm mocking something, I definitely enjoy doing it, but there
are a lot of other things going on at the same time --which in my case
usually includes value judgments, pride, arrogance, annoyance/anger
disdain, etc., etc-- so I couldn't really categorize it as "pure fun".
But that's just me. Pretty pedestrian, I know. What can I say? Mock
me.
>>p> Welll... Don't go changing, trying to please me.
>>
>> i don't want clever conversation. i never want to work that hard.
>p> Sorry.
>
> wow, you have no idea what just happened there, do you.
My guess would be, you mocked my original goofy comment by calling it
"clever conversation", and I responded by ignoring your mockery and
telling you something about me. Now you want to point out to me that I
missed your mockery. I didn't.
>p> Haha... I use this phrase, along with "what does a peach taste like?"
>
> i know a pear tastes like sweet sand. NAME THAT REFERENCE
Can't do it. It's a poetic analogy though, I like it. Who wrote it?
Of course, poetic as it is, it doesn't really get us to what a pear
*tastes* like. It does give us a hit on the texture of it's flesh
though. "Sweet" is still too vague to transmit experiential knowledge
of the taste --I mean, a peppermint is "sweet", so is maple syrup,
cotton candy and strawberry jam. If I throw sand in any of them, do I
have the taste of a pear?
So I agree with you, pear/peach/green are all things that need to be
directly experienced in order to be "known". "lawnmower dance", IMO,
however, doesn't fall into that category.
>> go ask someone to demonstrate. you can't explain a dance on
>>usenet.
>p> You put your right foot in
>p> You take your right foot out
>
> if you consider the hokey pokey to be a dance, you've got farther
>to go than i thought.
Tell me about it. It's a lifetime job. Maybe more. Sometimes I wonder
why I even bother.
But, no matter what your personal feelings are regarding the artistic
merits of the hokey pokey, it describes the core movements of the dance,
which was the point. We could do it with most dances, from polka's to
ballet to the "lawnmower".
Obviously, there's a huge gap between conceptualizing the "lawnmower
dance" (or anything else for that matter), observing it and the
experience of actually dancing it. But, given a common internal
reference on what it is to inhabit and move about in a human body, we
can reasonably explain the mechanics and external form of a specific
dance to someone who is unfamiliar with it --probably with a far greater
degree of accuracy than explaining the taste of a pear to someone who
has never tasted one.
Anyway... doesn't matter. As a guy I used to know often said,
"Understanding is the booby prize" .
Judith Grunberger
>
> is cough syrup stronger than advil?
no, it's just different.
also, cough syrup comes in two forms: cough suppressant (usually DXM or
codeine) and expectorant (usually guiafenisin).
if you choose to take cough syrup, it's helpful if you take the one
that is appropriate to the symptoms. (for example, a dry hacking cough
would benefit from a suppressant, but if you've got goo in your lungs, an
expectorant will make the coughs more... "productive.")
you can also get cough syrup with other shit added in, like decongestant.
if you take too much DXM (like, the whole bottle at once) you get high.
it's a disassociative in large doses.
thank you for your time & attention, lish.
--
Judith Grunberger * jcoo...@onastick.net * http://grunberger.net/
I'm in it for the whole egocentrical koala
bit-b...@maney.org
: bit-b...@maney.org wrote:
: bmo> :18:12 GMT in rec.arts.bodyart i'll teach you to turn away. wrote:
: bmo> : for your personal information, i've never done a drug stronge
: bmo> : than advil, never imbibed any alcohol (*any*), i don't smoke, & i av
: bmo> : caffeine. but the only time i use the term "straightedge" is with hu
: bmo> No cough syrup?
: hm. i was probably given it as a child, but i don't recall the
: last time, if so. i haven't bought any myself, ever.
Fair enough.
: is cough syrup stronger than advil?
That would depend on the cough syrup I guess, but really that's kind
of like comparing the intensity of colors and sounds. They do different
things.
SimpleSimon
"Judith Grunberger" <jcoo...@onastick.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.32.01112...@stanis.onastick.net...
> On 28 Nov 2001, i'll teach you to turn away. wrote:
> >
> > is cough syrup stronger than advil?
>
> no, it's just different.
>
> also, cough syrup comes in two forms: cough suppressant (usually DXM
or
> codeine) and expectorant (usually guiafenisin).
>
> if you choose to take cough syrup, it's helpful if you take the one
> that is appropriate to the symptoms. (for example, a dry hacking cough
> would benefit from a suppressant, but if you've got goo in your lungs,
an
> expectorant will make the coughs more... "productive.")
>
> you can also get cough syrup with other shit added in, like
decongestant.
One thing ( of many ) I don't quite seem to understand. Why do they
put an expectorant and a cough suppressant in the same medicine? Seems
most of "Big Pharmaceuticals" use the shotgun theory on cough syrups.
Isn't that like letting a humidifier and a de-humidifier fight it out?
Judith Grunberger
>
> One thing ( of many ) I don't quite seem to understand. Why do they
> put an expectorant and a cough suppressant in the same medicine? Seems
> most of "Big Pharmaceuticals" use the shotgun theory on cough syrups.
> Isn't that like letting a humidifier and a de-humidifier fight it out?
yes.
dont take DM or CF :)
i'll teach you to turn away.
>> i don't want clever conversation. i never want to work that hard.
>p> Sorry
p> "clever conversation", and I responded by ignoring your mockery and
don't go changing to try to please me
you never let me down before
i don't imagine you're too familiar
& i don't see you anymore
i would not leave you in times of trouble
we never could've come this far (ooh-ooh ooh)
i took the good times, i'll take the bad times
i'll take you just the way you are
that's right, i just quoted billy joel on rab. i've done it
before. i like billy joel. (up to & including "storm front", that is.)
anyhow, scooter, you paraphrased the first line, apparently
unintentionally. are you up to speed now?
> i know a pear tastes like sweet sand. NAME THAT REFERENCE
p> Can't do it. It's a poetic analogy though, I like it. Who wrote it?
i don't remember. i was hoping someone would NAME THAT REFERENCE.
p> So I agree with you, pear/peach/green are all things that need to be
p> directly experienced in order to be "known". "lawnmower dance", IMO,
p> however, doesn't fall into that category.
you know, for being on this group as long as you've been, you're
shitty at doing your own research. have you even tried a websearch?
i'll teach you to turn away.
JG> thank you for your time & attention, lish.
you've taught nothing here i didn't already know.
i don't do drugs - that doesn't mean i'm uneducated about them.
hell, i've even read the DXM FAQ#!$%!
i'll teach you to turn away.
bmo>9:41 GMT in rec.arts.bodyart i'll teach you to turn away. wrote:
bmo> : is cough syrup stronger than advil?
bmo> That would depend on the cough syrup I guess, but really that's kind
bmo> of like comparing the intensity of colors and sounds. They do differe
well, my stating i haven't done anything STRONGER than advil
would've negated the relevance of your asking about cough syrup, if cough
syrup were weaker than advil. i'm posting this because you seem confused
as to why i'd asked.
Stan
i'll teach you to turn away. <cr...@got.net> wrote:
>bit-b...@maney.org wrote:
>bmo>9:41 GMT in rec.arts.bodyart i'll teach you to turn away. wrote:
>bmo> : is cough syrup stronger than advil?
>bmo> That would depend on the cough syrup I guess, but really that's kind
>bmo> of like comparing the intensity of colors and sounds. They do differe
>
> well, my stating i haven't done anything STRONGER than advil
>would've negated the relevance of your asking about cough syrup, if cough
>syrup were weaker than advil. i'm posting this because you seem confused
I thought he was alluding to the fact that a lot of cough and cold
medicines contain alcohol.
--
Stan Schwarz | Extreme sports...offer "some kind of physical
st...@cosmo.pasadena.ca.us | analog to the thrill of installing Linux or
http://cosmo.pasadena.ca.us | other open-source operating systems."
| -Mikki Halpin, _The Geek Handbook_
bit-b...@maney.org
[...]
: I thought he was alluding to the fact that a lot of cough and cold
: medicines contain alcohol.
Got it in one.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>
> that's right, i just quoted billy joel on rab. i've done it
>before. i like billy joel. (up to & including "storm front", that is.)
This caught me completely by surprise. I never would have imagined it.
> anyhow, scooter, you paraphrased the first line, apparently
>unintentionally. are you up to speed now?
Well, Speedo, it was an unintentional paraphrase. I've never been into
the Piano Man. I suspect the line has been quoted in a mocking way so
often over the years that it's passed into general (mis)usage.
>> i know a pear tastes like sweet sand. NAME THAT REFERENCE
>p> Can't do it. It's a poetic analogy though, I like it. Who wrote it?
>
> i don't remember. i was hoping someone would NAME THAT REFERENCE.
hahaha... Can't help ya. I actually tried to look it up, but all I
learned was that there is a plant named "sweet sand". It has a nice
cluster of light purple flowers. Kinda pretty, but certainly not what I
was looking for.
Maybe someone else, far more literary than I (or you, evidently) can
help out with identifying the source of the analogy.
>p> So I agree with you, pear/peach/green are all things that need to be
>p> directly experienced in order to be "known". "lawnmower dance", IMO,
>p> however, doesn't fall into that category.
>
> you know, for being on this group as long as you've been, you're
>shitty at doing your own research. have you even tried a websearch?
Of course I did, Lucy. I did that before I first asked you about it,
right after you announced that you'd almost disocated your shoulder in
the process of doing it. Why would I risk getting publicly mocked out
by you in a global forum if I could find the desired information and
give some appearance of faux cluefulness? Cheese...
FWIW: I found a few references to it, using google, but nothing that
actually described it.
Anyway... While I'm genuinely curious about "lawnmower", it's secondary
to the pure blast of unbridled joy I've recieved just kicking this back
and forth with you.
i'll teach you to turn away.
what's more, i sing along. to EVERY WORD. on EVERY ALBUM (up to
the aforementioned cut-off).
but that's not nearly the most "embarrassing" artist in my
collection.
p> FWIW: I found a few references to it, using google, but nothing that
p> actually described it.
perhaps you should take a hint from that.
p> Anyway... While I'm genuinely curious about "lawnmower", it's secondary
p> to the pure blast of unbridled joy I've recieved just kicking this back
p> and forth with you.
thank me in cash.
i'll teach you to turn away.
S> I thought he was alluding to the fact that a lot of cough and cold
S> medicines contain alcohol.
it is impossible to be completely poison-free.
vegans probably come the closest, but they'd have to stop
breathing air, too, to cut out all toxins.
i don't drink caffeinated beverages. i eat chocolate. a chocolate
bar has quite a bit less caffeine than a soda; little enough that i don't
notice any effect after consuming one. i DID notice the 'perk' when i'd
drink a soda. by this rationale i've come to allow myself chocolate, but
disallow caffeinated sodas.
i go by what i feel affects me. yes, a lot of the shit i consume
affects me, but if it's in a way i don't notice, i don't bother myself
with it. i eat meat. i have, several times in the past, stopped eating
meat for a week or more. i noticed no change. but i enjoy meat, &
therefore, i still eat meat.
worrying about the alcohol in cough syrup isn't worth my time. i
occasionally use listerine, too. granted one is consumption & the other is
a rinse, if i don't remember taking cough syrup (& i don't mean i don't
remember it 'cause i was SO WASTED, MAN), i can't be bothered with the
chance that i've consumed the alcohol IN cough syrup, & OH NO my EDGE
might be BROKEN.
hell, i could've been given all sorts of shit as a child that i
have no memory of today. children don't exactly have free will in the
matter of drug use, & that's fine. but i'm not going to go fretting about
that time when i was three & my mother slipped two sweet, sweet tabs of
acid into my chocolate milk.
right.
anyhow, the point is to draw your line & stick with it. my line is
drawn at what i feel affects me. & you don't always have to DO something
to know it will affect you in a way you don't care to be affected, so
don't razz me with the usual "but if you've never TRIIIIED it"
blatherings.
psyam
<cr...@got.net> wrote:
>psyam <4ps...@thekeyboard.com> wrote:
>p> <cr...@got.net> wrote:
>> that's right, i just quoted billy joel on rab. i've done it
>p> This caught me completely by surprise. I never would have imagined it.
>
> what's more, i sing along. to EVERY WORD. on EVERY ALBUM (up to
>the aforementioned cut-off).
Aieeeeee...
<covers ears> La la la la la la la la _I CAN'T HEAR YOU!_ La la la la
> but that's not nearly the most "embarrassing" artist in my
>collection.
Wth this incredible run of Self disclosure you're on, perhaps you'd like
to share?
>p> FWIW: I found a few references to it, using google, but nothing that
>p> actually described it.
>
> perhaps you should take a hint from that.
Nah.... I'm holding out for a video of you. I'm sure there's one out
there somewhere.
>p> Anyway... While I'm genuinely curious about "lawnmower", it's secondary
>p> to the pure blast of unbridled joy I've recieved just kicking this back
>p> and forth with you.
>
> thank me in cash.
Will you take my chit? It's good.
Judith Grunberger
> Judith Grunberger <jcoo...@onastick.net> wrote:
> JG> thank you for your time & attention, lish.
>
> you've taught nothing here i didn't already know.
you asked if advil was stronger than cough cyrup or whatever. i was trying
to explain that it's like comparing apples and oranges.
and i went a little overboard.
> i don't do drugs - that doesn't mean i'm uneducated about them.
> hell, i've even read the DXM FAQ#!$%!
bully for you
bit-b...@maney.org
[..]
: anyhow, the point is to draw your line & stick with it. my line is
: drawn at what i feel affects me. & you don't always have to DO something
: to know it will affect you in a way you don't care to be affected, so
: don't razz me with the usual "but if you've never TRIIIIED it"
: blatherings.
No need to get your panties in a twist as I don't think anyone was
trying to razz you about anything. I happen to agree with you on
this matter. I was only pointing out that your statement earlier
(probably) wasn't completely correct adn that you might want to rethink
how you express it (i.e. "I choose not to drink alcohol or smoke or
do any drugs stronger than over the counter advil and never have")
instead of using a tautology that isn't ("I have never consumed
alcohol").
i'll teach you to turn away.
bmo> do any drugs stronger than over the counter advil and never have")
bmo> instead of using a tautology that isn't ("I have never consumed
bmo> alcohol").
if i'm willing to consume the caffeine in a chocolate bar, it
follows that the alcohol in a teaspoon of cough syrup would be as
irrelevant.
you have a point, sure. but i'm not that worried about it.
DarkndLight
>it's a disassociative in large doses.
Actually, half of a bottle of cough syrup is more than enough to get "high".
But I shouldn't go getting ideas into people's heads..using high doses of
dextromethorphan several times within the space of a even a month can lead to
seizure, brain damage and death.
.
No it cant. Dextromethorphan's side effects are not cumulative.
However, guanfensin's and those ornery little hydrobromides are.
The problem is that people who do disassociatives over a long period of time tend
to do more at once and for a longer event. Bunches of teenie-boppers sucking down
two bottles of cough syrup at parties are fucking up the numbers, man.
Disassociatives apparently do cause brain damage with heavy use; but it hasnt
as much to do with how often as it does with what quantity.
Also, DXM is indeed very dangerous. Dosage may vary *widely*. Do not use.
Stay away. Dont do it. You'll be sorry. And before you do, read everything
on the substance at www.lycaeum.org---which is back up.
And thats quite cool.
-----.
--
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and
its filled with people who are filled with shit and the
vermin of the world inhabit it
bit-b...@maney.org
: bit-b...@maney.org wrote:
: bmo> do any drugs stronger than over the counter advil and never have")
: bmo> instead of using a tautology that isn't ("I have never consumed
: bmo> alcohol").
: if i'm willing to consume the caffeine in a chocolate bar, it
: follows that the alcohol in a teaspoon of cough syrup would be as
: irrelevant.
Most likely.
: you have a point, sure. but i'm not that worried about it.
Fair enough.
Lady Diana
"i'll teach you to turn away." <cr...@got.net> wrote in message
news:9u6l6d$6gunp$1...@ID-56799.news.dfncis.de...
> Stan <st...@cosmo.pasadena.ca.us> wrote:
> S> I thought he was alluding to the fact that a lot of cough and cold
> S> medicines contain alcohol.
>
> it is impossible to be completely poison-free.
>
> vegans probably come the closest, but they'd have to stop
> breathing air, too, to cut out all toxins.
I don't have the facts on that but I'd venture to say that I think this is
not true.
I was talking to my friend (who is vegan) about the contents of some vegan
approved sweet or other (it may have been a bavarian cream donut) and he
said it was vegan because "there ain't nothin' natural in that shit...it's
ALL crafted in a lab".
I'm not quite sure I understand why someone would want to eat something
crafted in a lab...but...there you have it.
Diana (who finds it somewhat ironic that vegans protest lab treatment of
animals and then eat food with no natural ingredients, thus crafted in a
lab)
i'll teach you to turn away.
LD> "i'll teach you to turn away." <cr...@got.net> wrote in message
> vegans probably come the closest, but they'd have to stop
> breathing air, too, to cut out all toxins.
LD> ALL crafted in a lab".
lab-crafted food isn't necessarily toxic to the body. i wasn't
talking about "save the cute furry animals" type of veganism - more the
poison-free aspect of it. you know, the kids who yell at you in the
grocery store for not buying organic milk because of how badly the
hormones'll FUCK YOU UP, BRO.
so, your argument that my statement is "not true" is moot, as we
were debating different points.
but yes, i think it's funny too. then again, i find veganism as a
whole amusing.
Warg
i'll teach you to turn away. wrote in message
<9ui1dt$8k9n3$1...@ID-56799.news.dfncis.de>...
> i wasn't
>talking about "save the cute furry animals" type of veganism - more the
>poison-free aspect of it. you know, the kids who yell at you in the
>grocery store for not buying organic milk because of how badly the
>hormones'll FUCK YOU UP, BRO.
heh. In my view, the way to avoid hormones and other bad stuff in food is to
go out and kill something edible that has not been fed anything artificial.
Fish from the sea, grouse and elk from the mountains- can't get much
healthier food than that. Oh, and home-grown potatoes of course. I bet the
vegans won't approve though ;-)
--
Warg
Nina Baltes
> heh. In my view, the way to avoid hormones and other bad stuff in food is to
> go out and kill something edible that has not been fed anything artificial.
Do you really believe that meat from wild animals is free from hormones?
Think again.
Nina
--
C'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.
Louis Pasteur
http://www.chaotropic.net
Tabaqui
Nina Baltes wrote:
>
> Warg schrieb:
>
> > heh. In my view, the way to avoid hormones and other bad stuff in food is to
> > go out and kill something edible that has not been fed anything artificial.
>
> Do you really believe that meat from wild animals is free from hormones?
> Think again.
They are, at least, free of synthetic hormones (in huge
doses), as well as steroids, antibiotics, and other animals
ground up waste/body parts.
I'll take the natural hormones of a year-old elk (or
whaterver) over ANYTHING they're dumping into the
unfortunate bovines in THIS country.
TQ
Nina Baltes
> They are, at least, free of synthetic hormones (in huge
> doses), as well as steroids, antibiotics, and other animals
> ground up waste/ body parts.
> I'll take the natural hormones of a year-old elk (or
> whaterver) over ANYTHING they're dumping into the
> unfortunate bovines in THIS country.
The genetically engineered bovine growth hormone (used to increse milk
yield) for example has the same structure as the natural version.
If you are afraid of side effects that "synthetic" hormones may have,
what makes you think that their natural counterparts are any different
in that regard?
If you eat meat or drink milk, you *will* consume that animal's sex
hormones (among a bunch of other hormones). And any side effects of sex
hormones, natural or synthetic, are a direct consequence of their
'regular' effects.
I have never quite understood why people freak out at the thought of
hormone 'supplemented' meat but will eat a pregnant cow's meat or drink
its milk without a second thought. Those hormone levels are higher than
any you'll find in a supplemeted animal.
And don't forget phytoestrogens, hormones found in plants (e.g.
soybeans, levels are high enough to cause problems in pigs) that will
have similar effects as animal estrogens.
i'll teach you to turn away.
NB> If you eat meat or drink milk, you *will* consume that animal's sex
NB> hormones (among a bunch of other hormones). And any side effects of sex
you silly girl. all that stuff burns off when you cook it#!
Tabaqui
Nina Baltes wrote:
> The genetically engineered bovine growth hormone (used to increse milk
> yield) for example has the same structure as the natural version.
> If you are afraid of side effects that "synthetic" hormones may have,
> what makes you think that their natural counterparts are any different
> in that regard?
> If you eat meat or drink milk, you *will* consume that animal's sex
Ok, here's my thinking on it. I drink almost no milk. I
hate the stuff. I DO eat a lot of cheese, but i have no
idea if these synthetics 'survive' the cheese-making process
or not. Hormones isn't really my 'fear' however, although i
honestly don't trust any sort of genetically engineered
junk, and i don't think i'm going to be eating tomatoes with
salmon genes in them any time soon...
Mostly i dislike the antibiotics that are stuffed into *our*
meat animals... if i had the space i'd be fattening up my
very own animals on organic grains and whatnot, but i don't,
so i do my best to buy stuff from the local 'organic'
farmers. Which is very expensive. And i worry about my
daughter, since i've read some rather scary articles about
the high level of junk in meat causing such nifty things as
a period in 8 year old girls! Just can't be good. I don't
trust my government or their process of drug screening -
they said DDT was safe, AND thalidamide (i can't spell
that), and any number of other things, and handily cover up
their own fuck-ups, and etc., etc.... So when they say that
hormone and steroid and antibiotic-bloated cows are good for
me, i'm a little skeptical. At least we don't feed
carcasses to our cattle or sheep, but we do feed waste
matter, especially to pigs, and man, it just makes you kinda
ill thinking about it.
As an aside, beef kills my stomach and pork isn't much
better, and i'd happily live on bread and cheese the rest of
my life it i thought i could. :)
TQ
Nina Baltes
>
> Nina Baltes <chaot...@gmx.de> wrote:
> NB> If you eat meat or drink milk, you *will* consume that animal's sex
> NB> hormones (among a bunch of other hormones). And any side effects of sex
>
> you silly girl. all that stuff burns off when you cook it#!
You wish ;).
You're probably ingesting some animals' endorphins, aka endogenous
opioids, on a regular basis :P.
Nina Baltes
> idea if these synthetics 'survive' the cheese-making process
> or not. Hormones isn't really my 'fear' however, although i
> honestly don't trust any sort of genetically engineered
> junk, and i don't think i'm going to be eating tomatoes with
> salmon genes in them any time soon...
We eat salmon, we eat tomatoes. What harm do you expect from salmon
genes in a tomato?
Besides, genetically engineered doesn't always mean that species have
been mixed.
I see the method as a great opportunity, not just for food. Take
vaccines for example.
What I find more alarming is that polls over here have revealed that
many many people believe that tomatoes don't have genes naturally and
that it's the evil researchers who put them in there. And if that's the
base of the public opinion on genetically engineered products...
> Mostly i dislike the antibiotics that are stuffed into *our*
> meat animals...
Antibiotic feed sucks for a number of reasons we've discussed a while
ago ;).
> And i worry about my
> daughter, since i've read some rather scary articles about
> the high level of junk in meat causing such nifty things as
> a period in 8 year old girls! Just can't be good. I don't
> trust my government or their process of drug screening -
> they said DDT was safe, AND thalidamide (i can't spell
> that),
Actually, there have no harmful effects been found for DDT in humans
except that it accumulates in fat tissue and is released into breast
milk. So the warnings are mostly a "just in case" thing. And thalidomide
is 100% safe for about half of the population- men. Strictly speaking,
it's not harmful to women either, just to fetuses. So if you're not
pregnant, it's great stuff. Roaccutane is in the same spot, but it's on
the market (acne treatment), and women just have to be on the pill or
similar to get it.
> and any number of other things, and handily cover up
> their own fuck-ups, and etc., etc.... So when they say that
> hormone and steroid and antibiotic-bloated cows are good for
> me, i'm a little skeptical. At least we don't feed
> carcasses to our cattle or sheep, but we do feed waste
> matter, especially to pigs, and man, it just makes you kinda
> ill thinking about it.
I see no problem with feeding meat products to omnivores, provided it's
stuff that's been found suitable for human consumption.
Feeding chicken shit back to the chickens is prohibited here, I don't
know about the US.
Judith Grunberger
> Feeding chicken shit back to the chickens is prohibited here, I don't
> know about the US.
we just spread it on our fields so the runoff can cause algae blooms and
pfisteria outbreaks in our estuaries.
mmmmmm, chicken.
Warg
Nina Baltes wrote in message <3C0DD096...@gmx.de>...
>Warg schrieb:
>
>> heh. In my view, the way to avoid hormones and other bad stuff in food is
to
>> go out and kill something edible that has not been fed anything
artificial.
>
>Do you really believe that meat from wild animals is free from hormones?
>Think again.
>
They're full of natural hormones of course, just like any other multicell
organism. But apart from what we humans have managed to spread through
pollution they are unlikely to contain anything they shouldn't: artificial
hormones, antibiotics, those watchammacallits causing mad cow disease (and
scrapie?) or salmonella.
Artificial growth hormone is probably not dangerous to the consumer, but
believe me, muscle that has been grown for everyday hard work tastes much
better than muscle that has only grown because of a hormone and gotten no
exercise. A farm animal usually gets little exersice a it is, and when it
grows an unnatural amount of muscle then the individual musce fibre has to
do even less work. Consequentially, taste and tenderness is less than
optimal. Whereas inner fillet of a 1 1/2 year old elk... Yummy. If you get
it in the frying pan while it's still warm, it's so tender you can eat it
with a spoon.
Not all natural creatures are safe to eat of course, and some traditional
foodstuffs contain more (natural) toxins than would be allowed if it were
synthetically produced. But in most cases people are aware of the effects,
if not the cause, of eating these things. For instance eating fresh cod and
codliver for dinner tends to make you sleepy- a mild case of vitamin A
overdose. Eating polar bear liver tends to make people fall asleep and die-
a serious case of the same thing, because the polar bear is at the top of
the foodchain so vitamin A piles up in its liver.
As for antibiotics, I actually worry more about non-food antibac products-
the damn stuff has gotten so common it's hard to avoid it. And most of them
use the same active ingredient- Triclosan (U.S. trademarked as Microban in
some applications). This stuff is used in just about everything, from
toothpaste and handwash to anti-stink gym socks and underwear. It has not
been conclusively proved harmless to humans- and it has been proved to kill
fish. Triclosan has been found in breast milk, too- mothers who use antibac
toothpaste probably feed their children this stuff.
--
Warg
Tabaqui
Nina Baltes wrote:
> Actually, there have no harmful effects been found for DDT in humans
> except that it accumulates in fat tissue and is released into breast
Ummmmmmm... If something that is fogged in a neighborhood
brings birds thudding dead into the grass is considered
'safe', i don't WANT to know what 'unsafe' is. The problem
is, we have no real idea what ANY of this stuff does in
combination with all the OTHER junk we're ingesting and
breathing.... Gads. I would be happy living off what i
could grow and kill if i could actually GROW and KILL things
with any kind of accuracy and consistency.
> I see no problem with feeding meat products to omnivores, provided it's
> stuff that's been found suitable for human consumption.
Ummmm... cows don't naturally eat meat, unless i missed
something in school... Mad cow disease is one downside of
feeding dead animals to other animals... And i don't think
ANYTHING that's diseased is fit for consumption. Which
means, yes, i should never eat another bite of Tyson
chicken, but i do my best.
Let's just say the track record for my govt. on stuff that
can hurt us is pretty poor, and i truly believe that the
combination of all the stuff we eat and breathe causes a LOT
of the problems we have.
Anyway, somebody pass the carcinoginec buffalo wings, i'm
starving.
TQ
Siobhan
"Warg" <aam...@online.no> wrote:
> optimal. Whereas inner fillet of a 1 1/2 year old elk... Yummy. If you get
> it in the frying pan while it's still warm, it's so tender you can eat it
> with a spoon.
Really? I thought you had to hang meat for a while to make it tender enough
to eat, and that really fresh meat was gross?
Siobhan
--
reply to: address valid
Oportet Ministros Manus Lavare Antequam Latrinam Relinquent.
Lara
> Not all natural creatures are safe to eat of course, and some traditional
> foodstuffs contain more (natural) toxins than would be allowed if it were
> synthetically produced. But in most cases people are aware of the effects,
> if not the cause, of eating these things. For instance eating fresh cod and
> codliver for dinner tends to make you sleepy- a mild case of vitamin A
> overdose.
Whilst very aware of the dangers of vitamin A toxicity, I confess to a
little scepticism on this one. You need over a million units to get
acute toxicity (25 000 units per kilogram), and the lag time is said to
be 6-24 hours. Is "dinner" an evening meal to you? I'd also expect bone
pain and neurological symptoms (irritability and headache in the mild
forms) from acute toxicity, which wouldn't be conducive to terrific
sleep.
Poking around the web for a cod-liver-A content, I found one cite saying
it has 100 000 units per 100 grams[1].
OK, so it's not completely impossible to get acute toxicity from cod
liver consumption, if one assumes that you are a _big_ fan of the stuff,
and/or that symptoms start at a much lower dose than has been
documented. Where would you buy a kilo of cod liver?
Cod flesh causing acute A toxicity? I'm not believing this one.
Lara
[1] http://www.mydigitalkitchen.com/en/ingred_show.php?p_iId=4589
My Digital Kitchen - Show Ingredient Details
Nina Baltes
> They're full of natural hormones of course, just like any other multicell
> organism. But apart from what we humans have managed to spread through
> pollution they are unlikely to contain anything they shouldn't: artificial
> hormones, antibiotics, those watchammacallits causing mad cow disease (and
> scrapie?)
prions
> Artificial growth hormone is probably not dangerous to the consumer, but
> believe me, muscle that has been grown for everyday hard work tastes much
> better than muscle that has only grown because of a hormone and gotten no
> exercise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not it favor of hormone use. I'm just against
uninformed rejection of new technologies and procedures. It's so popular
to freak out over "artificial" things.
I think hormones are a stupid idea for the reason you just gave, and
also for the problems it causes in the animals. Breeding alone has
created enough problems, like calves so big that cesarean section
becomes routine in the breed, gigantic udders that touch the floor and
cause intertrigo, not to mention the risk for mastitis.
"Yeah, let's try to make even more profit, who cares about the creature
involved".
> A farm animal usually gets little exersice a it is, and when it
> grows an unnatural amount of muscle then the individual musce fibre has to
> do even less work. Consequentially, taste and tenderness is less than
> optimal. Whereas inner fillet of a 1 1/2 year old elk... Yummy. If you get
> it in the frying pan while it's still warm, it's so tender you can eat it
> with a spoon.
Tender maybe, but shouldn't it age a bit to develop more aroma? ;)
> Not all natural creatures are safe to eat of course, and some traditional
> foodstuffs contain more (natural) toxins than would be allowed if it were
> synthetically produced.
Exactly.
> But in most cases people are aware of the effects,
> if not the cause, of eating these things. For instance eating fresh cod and
> codliver for dinner tends to make you sleepy- a mild case of vitamin A
> overdose. Eating polar bear liver tends to make people fall asleep and die-
> a serious case of the same thing, because the polar bear is at the top of
> the foodchain so vitamin A piles up in its liver.
Still, people kill their cats by feeding them too much liver. I don't
quite believe that people in general know about polar bear liver, but
fortunately it's kind of hard to come by in these parts ;).
> fish. Triclosan has been found in breast milk, too- mothers who use antibac
> toothpaste probably feed their children this stuff.
And there are resistances against it popping up everywhere, so there is
hope it will be useless shortly and disappear from the market ;).
Nina Baltes
>
> Nina Baltes wrote:
>
> > Actually, there have no harmful effects been found for DDT in humans
> > except that it accumulates in fat tissue and is released into breast
> Ummmmmmm... If something that is fogged in a neighborhood
> brings birds thudding dead into the grass is considered
> 'safe',
I was talking about *humans*, not birds. Birds (and marine animals)
*are* quite susceptible to DDT effects, but usually effects are chronic,
for example it causes "thin egg shells" in birds. I don't think humans
need to worry about that much.
It might be different in countries where it's still used, due to the
dose, but in our parts, DDT contamination comes from buildup of past
environmental comtamination. And btw, buying organically produced stuff
won't protect you from it.
> > I see no problem with feeding meat products to omnivores, provided it's
> > stuff that's been found suitable for human consumption.
> Ummmm... cows don't naturally eat meat, unless i missed
> something in school...
Ummm... I said omnivores.
John McGrail
(snip for convenience)
>
> I'm just
> against uninformed rejection of new technologies and procedures.
> It's so popular to freak out over "artificial" things.
Skaterat clones want to be free!
--
rat...@skaterat.net
ditch the food to reply
Tabaqui
Nina Baltes wrote:
>
> Tabaqui schrieb:
> I was talking about *humans*, not birds. Birds (and marine animals)
> *are* quite susceptible to DDT effects, but usually effects are chronic,
Just because we don't develope 'thin skulls' or something
doesn't mean it's not DOING something to us. We're not so
different from birds that we shouldn't at least be a
*LITTLE* terrified of stuff like that.
> environmental comtamination. And btw, buying organically produced stuff
> won't protect you from it.
That i know, and i'm not actually worried about DDT in my
meat, as i think at this point it's pretty low in the
environment. However, we DID ship our leftovers to poorer
countries who couldn't afford new stuff and we buy veggies
that have been sprayed with it. Whoo hoo! Farmers market
here i come.
> > Ummmm... cows don't naturally eat meat, unless i missed
> > something in school...
>
> Ummm... I said omnivores.
Ok, but we're talking about cows and sheep. They aren't
omnivores. What omnivores do YOU eat?
TQ
Nina Baltes
> Just because we don't develope 'thin skulls' or something
> doesn't mean it's not DOING something to us.
Certainly. But the fact that no obvious terrible things have happened
during the past decades should allow people to relax just a little when
they think about such things.
Any effects will be long term, and probably subtle, and if something is
found, it will be difficult to link a specific effect to a specific
substance, given that experiments on humans are not likely to happen ;).
There is need for research, but not for panic.
> We're not so
> different from birds that we shouldn't at least be a
> *LITTLE* terrified of stuff like that.
Concerned, of course. Certainly not terrified. I just think there are
more pressing health issues to be terrified about. Like the fact that
we're truly running out of effective antibiotics. I don't worry about
humans in 200 years all being infertile because of environmental
pollution when at the same time there's a real danger that I might not
survive an infected paper cut some time during my own lifetime (we're
not quite there yet). I'm selfish like that ;).
> Ok, but we're talking about cows and sheep. They aren't
> omnivores. What omnivores do YOU eat?
Pigs, chickens, certain fish, mostly.
Since the confirmation of BSE in Germany, feeding animal products even
to omnivores was forbidden (it's been forbidden for herbivores for
quite some time), *including* stuff that's been found suitable for
consumption by humans. So it's good enough for you, but not good enough
for the pig. Quite ridiculous in my eyes.
ObSwingBackOnTopic: I'm shedding blue flakes!
Tabaqui
Nina Baltes wrote:
> substance, given that experiments on humans are not likely to happen ;).
> There is need for research, but not for panic.
Well, i'm not panicing (boy THAT looks wrong), i'm just...
distrustful and wary. One of these days i'll have enough
land to raise a lot of my own food, so until then i just do
what i can.
The preservatives, of course, are what's going to keep me
alive for another 100 years, hehehehe.
> survive an infected paper cut some time during my own lifetime (we're
> not quite there yet). I'm selfish like that ;).
Well, i dunno, i kinda think stuff like that is controlable
if people would just be a little cleaner. When you cut
yourself, you wash and then use a bandaid for a day or so
until it seals. I've never gotten an infection of any kind
from the many cuts and scratches and gashes i've gotten over
my lifetime, most of them outside due to sharp rocks, barb
wire, broken tree-limbs, and knives. So unless you're a
truly filthy or careless person, even an 'easily infected'
society should be able to control that.
Of course, then i go to the grocery and see the truly filthy
little children and their filthy parents wandering around,
and realize it's all a pipe dream.
> Pigs, chickens, certain fish, mostly.
> Since the confirmation of BSE in Germany, feeding animal products even
> to omnivores was forbidden (it's been forbidden for herbivores for
Hrmmmm. Someone in the US perfected the feeding of pig crap
back to pigs, and i'm sure that there is plenty of waste for
'farm' fish and chickens to eat... But as for feeding that
intentionally, it's disgusting.
And even if it IS deemed 'ok' for humans, i'll bet half or
better of the humans our there wouldn't touch if if they
knew. I'm thinking of the fun stories my dad told me about
his job at the pickle relish factory when he was a teenager,
and how they scooped up stuff off the floor full of spit,
rat hair/feces, dead things, bits... Makes you want to
serilize your food!
> ObSwingBackOnTopic: I'm shedding blue flakes!
Aaaargh!! Corn-flake lady!
This thread header is pretty weird for the topic, too.
Maybe we should quit. :)
TQ
iliad awry, aka ooh! leopard undies!
slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
| Ok, but we're talking about cows and sheep. They aren't
| omnivores. What omnivores do YOU eat?
humans.
(tq, you were -so- asking for that.)
cassie
--
"Imagine Ayn Rand as a lava lamp."
-Bill^2, alt.fan.neil-gaiman, 11.18.2001
David RL Gartner
"iliad awry, aka "ooh! leopard undies!"" <ilia...@ec.rr.com> wrote in
message news:3c115f94...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:23:03 -0600, Tabaqui <chang...@catbones.com>
> slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
>
> | Ok, but we're talking about cows and sheep. They aren't
> | omnivores. What omnivores do YOU eat?
>
> humans.
>
> (tq, you were -so- asking for that.)
david
Skookums
<chaot...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Actually, there have no harmful effects been found for DDT in humans
> except that it accumulates in fat tissue and is released into breast
> milk.
In chemical circles there is a story: namely that when DDT was
first introduced, in order to demonstrate its harmlessness to
mammals, one manufacturer's flunky ate a tablespoonful of the
stuff in front of an audience. Fast forward. In later years, as
this guy put on weight (quite common among middle-aged men), he
found that if he tried to lose weight, the DDT freed from the
adipose tissue cause vague neurological problems. He had to stay
fat.
Now I admit that this story is possibly apocryphal, but I'm sure
I've seen other references to neurological problems arising from
DDT.
You will remember that nerve cells are coated with lipids...
[The moral behind the aforementioned story was, btw, that you
can't trust any chemical in the lab to be safe, no matter what
the literature says. When I was in grad school, one of the
organickers was working with some class of (iirc) diazo
compounds, which are generally notorious for their toxicity.
Noticing that he didn't seem to bother much with safety
precautions, I raised the question. His answer: "Oh, no problem,
this class of diazo (iirc) compounds is nontoxic." Yeah, sure. I
wonder if he's still alive.]
--
Skookums
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Skookums
wrote:
> As for antibiotics, I actually worry more about non-food antibac products-
> the damn stuff has gotten so common it's hard to avoid it. And most of them
> use the same active ingredient- Triclosan (U.S. trademarked as Microban in
> some applications). This stuff is used in just about everything...
Just try to buy a liquid handsoap that doesn't contain it! Almost
impossible, though I finally discovered that Jergens makes one.
Warg
Lara wrote in message <1f41u60.1fht9wewjchh4N%use...@waawa.cx>...
>Warg <aam...@online.no> wrote:
>> For instance eating fresh cod and
>> codliver for dinner tends to make you sleepy- a mild case of vitamin A
>> overdose.
>
>Whilst very aware of the dangers of vitamin A toxicity, I confess to a
>little scepticism on this one.
There may well be other substances than vitamin A involved; however I can
assure you that the effect is real; I typically experience it several times
per year. Here in northern Norway we eat a lot of fresh fish, and codliver
is traditionally served along with the fish and potatoes. Perhaps our
"normal" vitamin A level is high enough that a relatively small dose can
sort of push us over the edge?
>Where would you buy a kilo of cod liver?
I don't know if you can- if I want cod liver I just walk 5 minutes to the
boat, motor out for 10 minutes, and catch as many fish as I want.
>
>Cod flesh causing acute A toxicity? I'm not believing this one.
>
Believe whatever you want. I'll just go on eating whatever I want, and
knowing that I sometimes get really sleepy just after eating lots of fresh
cod liver.
--
Warg
Warg
Siobhan wrote in message <9upg8o$st2$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au>...
>
>"Warg" <aam...@online.no> wrote:
>> optimal. Whereas inner fillet of a 1 1/2 year old elk... Yummy. If you
get
>> it in the frying pan while it's still warm, it's so tender you can eat it
>> with a spoon.
>
>Really? I thought you had to hang meat for a while to make it tender enough
>to eat, and that really fresh meat was gross?
>
_Really_ fresh meat is delish. Merely 3 hour old meat has the taste and
texture of boot leather. Then it has to hang for a certain time depending on
temperature- longer if it's cold.
See, meat is tender right up until rigor mortis sets in. Note that I said
".. while it's still warm", as in "straight from the animal". Once that
critter goes stiff, you can't expect it to be tender.
--
Warg
Warg
Skookums wrote in message <3c1163be...@news.newsguy.com>...
>
>In chemical circles there is a story: namely that when DDT was
>first introduced, in order to demonstrate its harmlessness to
>mammals, one manufacturer's flunky ate a tablespoonful of the
>stuff in front of an audience.
That was commonly done by salesmen, to convince farmers that it was safe to
spray their crops with DDT- after all, the salesman had eaten many
tablespoons and was still alive. I don't think there exists any statistics
as to their life expectancy though...
--
Warg
Tabaqui
Warg wrote:
>
> Skookums wrote in message <3c1163be...@news.newsguy.com>...
>
> >
> >In chemical circles there is a story: namely that when DDT was
> >first introduced, in order to demonstrate its harmlessness to
> >mammals, one manufacturer's flunky ate a tablespoonful of the
> >stuff in front of an audience.
>
> That was commonly done by salesmen, to convince farmers that it was safe to
> spray their crops with DDT- after all, the salesman had eaten many
Gag. I'll take still-warm elk meat anyday! Warg, i think i
need to plan a trip to your 'neck of the woods', i'm getting
HUNGRY! Hehehe.
TQ
Tabaqui
Tabaqui
"iliad awry, aka ooh! leopard undies!" wrote:
>
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:23:03 -0600, Tabaqui <chang...@catbones.com>
> slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
>
> | Ok, but we're talking about cows and sheep. They aren't
> | omnivores. What omnivores do YOU eat?
>
> humans.
>
> (tq, you were -so- asking for that.)
Bwahahahahahahaha.
Should we go 'Donner Party' of 'porno' with that?
Hrmmmmm....
TQ
iliad awry, aka ooh! leopard undies!
slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
| Bwahahahahahahaha.
| Should we go 'Donner Party' of 'porno' with that?
| Hrmmmmm....
depends on the humans. most of the world's population would be better
served in a nice port sauce.
Tabaqui
"iliad awry, aka ooh! leopard undies!" wrote:
>
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:53:36 -0600, Tabaqui <chang...@catbones.com>
> slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
>
> | Bwahahahahahahaha.
> | Should we go 'Donner Party' of 'porno' with that?
> | Hrmmmmm....
>
> depends on the humans. most of the world's population would be better
> served in a nice port sauce.
Ick. I don't like wine in food. Or by itself, for that
matter. I prefer...cheese. I could eat almost anything if
you put enough cheese on it. :)
TQ
iliad awry, aka ooh! leopard undies!
slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
| Ick. I don't like wine in food. Or by itself, for that
| matter. I prefer...cheese. I could eat almost anything if
| you put enough cheese on it. :)
well, we'll do them in sauteed mushrooms and onions and roquefort,
then.
Nina Baltes
> In chemical circles there is a story: namely that when DDT was
> first introduced, in order to demonstrate its harmlessness to
> mammals, one manufacturer's flunky ate a tablespoonful of the
> stuff in front of an audience. Fast forward. In later years, as
> this guy put on weight (quite common among middle-aged men), he
> found that if he tried to lose weight, the DDT freed from the
> adipose tissue cause vague neurological problems. He had to stay
> fat.
While the mechanism seems plausible, why there were no effects when
he first ate the stuff is what I'd want to know.
> Now I admit that this story is possibly apocryphal, but I'm sure
> I've seen other references to neurological problems arising from
> DDT.
> You will remember that nerve cells are coated with lipids...
>
> [The moral behind the aforementioned story was, btw, that you
> can't trust any chemical in the lab to be safe, no matter what
> the literature says.
As with everything, it's surely a question of dosage. Pretty much
everything is harmful if the dose is high enough. Look at the MSDS
sheet (go to www.sigma.com, you have to register for free, and then
you can look at all their MSDS sheets) for NaCl. Or, more
interestingly, that of testosterone. It's listed as being
carcinogenic and teratogenic.
> When I was in grad school, one of the
> organickers was working with some class of (iirc) diazo
> compounds, which are generally notorious for their toxicity.
> Noticing that he didn't seem to bother much with safety
> precautions, I raised the question. His answer: "Oh, no problem,
> this class of diazo (iirc) compounds is nontoxic." Yeah, sure. I
> wonder if he's still alive.]
Heh. Carelessness with toxic compounds is pretty common among lab
workers. I've caught myself handling ethidium bromide (highly
carcinogenic) stained equipment with bare hands. It's difficult to
keep reminding yourself that the stuff you're working with is
dangerous.
"The mean thing about neurotoxins like acrylamide is that you
yourself are the last one to notice you should have worn
gloves" ;-)
Nina Baltes
> Well, i dunno, i kinda think stuff like that is controlable
> if people would just be a little cleaner. When you cut
> yourself, you wash and then use a bandaid for a day or so
> until it seals. I've never gotten an infection of any kind
> from the many cuts and scratches and gashes i've gotten over
> my lifetime, most of them outside due to sharp rocks, barb
> wire, broken tree-limbs, and knives. So unless you're a
> truly filthy or careless person, even an 'easily infected'
> society should be able to control that.
You should look at death statistics from pre-antibiotic times ;).
Replace paper cut by surgery wound. There's nothing your basic
hygiene can do against a bacterial infection that doesn't respond
to antibiotics.
> > Pigs, chickens, certain fish, mostly.
> > Since the confirmation of BSE in Germany, feeding animal products even
> > to omnivores was forbidden (it's been forbidden for herbivores for
> Hrmmmm. Someone in the US perfected the feeding of pig crap
> back to pigs, and i'm sure that there is plenty of waste for
> 'farm' fish and chickens to eat... But as for feeding that
> intentionally, it's disgusting.
There's not much disgusting about it. It's not stuff scooped up
from the floor, but things like little bits of meat left on bones
after the steak has been cut off, blood... just the things you
wouldn't want for dinner. Why throw all that away? It's high
quality protein.
> > ObSwingBackOnTopic: I'm shedding blue flakes!
> Aaaargh!! Corn-flake lady!
> This thread header is pretty weird for the topic, too.
> Maybe we should quit. :)
OK ;)
Corine
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:53:36 -0600, Tabaqui <chang...@catbones.com>
> slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
>
> | Bwahahahahahahaha.
> | Should we go 'Donner Party' of 'porno' with that?
> | Hrmmmmm....
>
> depends on the humans. most of the world's population would be better
> served in a nice port sauce.
>
> cassie
*I object.
Serve good meat in madeira or mushrooms sauce.
With a Gratin Dauphinois and a salad. Voila.
Port is good with Danish Blue on toasts thought.
Corine
Tabaqui
"iliad awry, aka ooh! leopard undies!" wrote:
>
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 23:07:25 -0600, Tabaqui <chang...@catbones.com>
> slunk up to me and whispered suggestively in my ear:
>
> | Ick. I don't like wine in food. Or by itself, for that
> | matter. I prefer...cheese. I could eat almost anything if
> | you put enough cheese on it. :)
>
> well, we'll do them in sauteed mushrooms and onions and roquefort,
> then.
Hee! I think you need a tattoo and should travel to Central
Missouri to get it... My kitchen is pretty big, i'm sure
you'd be more then comfortable cooking in it... :)
TQ
David RL Gartner
"Tabaqui" <chang...@catbones.com> wrote in message
news:3CBF0F0C522DCC3B.09B23DAF...@lp.airnews.net...
>
<snip>
> Ick. I don't like wine in food. Or by itself, for that
> matter. I prefer...cheese. I could eat almost anything if
> you put enough cheese on it. :)
what about cat shit?
david
--
http://www.bmeworld.com/myneedle
http://iam.bmezine.com/?DRLG
Skookums
<chaot...@gmx.de> wrote:
> You should look at death statistics from pre-antibiotic times ;).
The most obvious effect, visible today, of the arrival of
antibiotics is the disappearance of orphanages. Remember those,
anybody? Ever wonder why nearly all orphanages (at least in North
America) have long since been converted to other uses? It's
because the death rate among young adults (sc. parents) used to
be quite high due to bacterial infection and there really were a
lot of orphans; now the death rate among young adults is very low
and there are few orphans.
A secondary cause of the disappearance of orphanages lies in the
more finely meshed social safety nets we have now, but the
primary cause is the reduction in the death rate among young
adults.
Wash those hands.
Tabaqui
David RL Gartner wrote:
>
> "Tabaqui" <chang...@catbones.com> wrote in message
> news:3CBF0F0C522DCC3B.09B23DAF...@lp.airnews.net...
> >
> <snip>
> > Ick. I don't like wine in food. Or by itself, for that
> > matter. I prefer...cheese. I could eat almost anything if
> > you put enough cheese on it. :)
>
> what about cat shit?
Read for comprehension. I said "almost anything".
TQ