My Opinions and response to the tribal/art nouveau thread
Angela Kuhns
cancelling their NNTP service without sending out email notification
of the change. I have set up a free news access account and spamguard
over the weekend. In case any of you have missed me and wondered why I
disappeared, rest assured. I am back.
I just have to comment on a few things though, so instead of
responding to 26 separate week old posts, here it is in a nut shell.
about whether Cat's work is tribal vs. art nouveau:
It is most definitely a.n. inspired. It shows in the pattern of the
flow vs. the spacing, the balance of the location of the swirls in
relation to the focal point of the composition.
From an design and fine art stand point, Tribal is geometric based
design while art nouveau "swirls" are very biomorphicly based.
From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
inspired by or a variation of tribal design. In that way, again it
cannot be correct ESPECIALLY in the case of Christy's piece where the
entire tattoo is an actual recreation of an Art Nouveau painting.
As for why people should or should not care whether it is called one
or the other:
It's like calling someone from Mexico a Central American or
vice-versa.
You all can protest all you like, but it is both wrong and insulting.
To take any high art and refer to it as cultural decoration is
appalling.
Would you call a Wright prarie house "just another tract house" and
expect an architect to not care?
It's true that some people won't care, but that doesn't excuse the
behavior. Some women do not mind being called a Cunt, but that doesn't
mean you mom has no right to get pissed off at you if you say that to
her face.
This thread started as an issue of respect and sadly continued as
such.
What saddens me most is that if someone has set themselves up as an
expert on the general subject of tattoos, there is an ethical
obligation to refrain from spouting off inaccurate opinions as fact in
a public forum. You would think such a person would just not broach
the subject at all, or at least not spiral down to defamation by libel
to cover up the faux pas.
For the record, I did pay for my tattoos and I am highly offended at
the assumptions and down right lies that have implied negative
information about my financial stability and my integrity both here
and on IRC.
I'd demand an apology from the people involved, but I wouldn't want
them to try to publicly humiliate me to cover their tracks and
maintain their elitist selfiappointed status.
-- AngieK a.k.a. D-Strss
"History will have to record that the greatst tragedy of
this period of social transition was not the strident
clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of
the good people." Dr. Martin Luther King
to reply: email me @mdo.net
Judith Grunberger
> From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
> is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
> inspired by or a variation of tribal design. In that way, again it
> cannot be correct ESPECIALLY in the case of Christy's piece where the
> entire tattoo is an actual recreation of an Art Nouveau painting.
This is the only thing I take issue with.
Only because nowadays, the popular "tribal" and "neotribal" labels,
when applied to tattoos, do not mean "from a tribe"
They just don't.
Just like "gay" doesnt really mean "happy" any more.
Cat (& whoever else) can start a language-use crusade if they'd like, but
like the singular "they" (when used as a gender-neutral third-person
singular pronoun), i fear the labels are here to stay.
Alas.
--
Judith Grunberger
jcoo...@io.com
http://grunberger.net/
Angela Kuhns
<jcoo...@eris.io.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 14 May 2001, Angela Kuhns wrote:
>
>> From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
>> is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>> inspired by or a variation of tribal design. In that way, again it
>> cannot be correct ESPECIALLY in the case of Christy's piece where the
>> entire tattoo is an actual recreation of an Art Nouveau painting.
>
>This is the only thing I take issue with.
>
>Only because nowadays, the popular "tribal" and "neotribal" labels,
>when applied to tattoos, do not mean "from a tribe"
>
I disagree.
Just because multiple people use a word incorrectly does not change
the definition of a word.
You are talking about the validity of "tribal" as a slang term, I am
not. When discussing art styles and art history, slang definitions are
at the very least confusing and at most irrelevant.
---Angie a.k.a. D-Strss
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
--Rita Mae Brown
Judith Grunberger
> On Mon, 14 May 2001 12:04:59 -0500, Judith Grunberger
> <jcoo...@eris.io.com> wrote:
> >On Mon, 14 May 2001, Angela Kuhns wrote:
> >
> >> From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
> >> is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
> >> inspired by or a variation of tribal design. In that way, again it
> >> cannot be correct ESPECIALLY in the case of Christy's piece where the
> >> entire tattoo is an actual recreation of an Art Nouveau painting.
> >
> >This is the only thing I take issue with.
> >
> >Only because nowadays, the popular "tribal" and "neotribal" labels,
> >when applied to tattoos, do not mean "from a tribe"
> >
>
> I disagree.
>
> Just because multiple people use a word incorrectly does not change
> the definition of a word.
yes it does :)
> You are talking about the validity of "tribal" as a slang term, I am
> not. When discussing art styles and art history, slang definitions are
> at the very least confusing and at most irrelevant.
yes.
so?
Angela Kuhns
<jcoo...@eris.io.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 14 May 2001, Angela Kuhns wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 May 2001 12:04:59 -0500, Judith Grunberger
>> <jcoo...@eris.io.com> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 14 May 2001, Angela Kuhns wrote:
>> >
>> >> From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
>> >> is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>> >> inspired by or a variation of tribal design. In that way, again it
>> >> cannot be correct ESPECIALLY in the case of Christy's piece where the
>> >> entire tattoo is an actual recreation of an Art Nouveau painting.
>> >
>> >This is the only thing I take issue with.
>> >
>> >Only because nowadays, the popular "tribal" and "neotribal" labels,
>> >when applied to tattoos, do not mean "from a tribe"
>> >
>>
>> I disagree.
>>
>> Just because multiple people use a word incorrectly does not change
>> the definition of a word.
>
>yes it does :)
no, it creates a slang definition that is different from the original
meaning.
>> You are talking about the validity of "tribal" as a slang term, I am
>> not. When discussing art styles and art history, slang definitions are
>> at the very least confusing and at most irrelevant.
>
>yes.
>
>so?
so, for example, go ahead and get your cooter pierced with bling-bling
and use those terms if you choose, but don't kid yourself that those
terms are proper or correct. :D
scott bock
> >> Judith Grunberger
> >> I disagree.
> >>
> >> Just because multiple people use a word incorrectly
does not change
> >> the definition of a word.
> >
> >yes it does :)
>
> no, it creates a slang definition that is different from
the original
> meaning.
>
> >> You are talking about the validity of "tribal" as a
slang term, I am
> >> not. When discussing art styles and art history, slang
definitions are
> >> at the very least confusing and at most irrelevant.
> >
> >yes.
> >
> >so?
>
> so, for example, go ahead and get your cooter pierced with
bling-bling
> and use those terms if you choose, but don't kid yourself
that those
> terms are proper or correct. :D
is she piercing her cooter with a ball closure ring or a
captive bead ring? new word are created and documented to be
added to our vocabulary constantly. before art nouveau, what
did they call byzantine influenced and pre-raphael art? they
used to call them tattoo guns. they become descriptive
words. aka adjectives. again (without briang's permission),
a chair is a chair. a wood chair. a white wood chair.
what's tribal-nouveau??
scott bock
> For the record, I did pay for my tattoos and I am highly
offended at
> the assumptions and down right lies that have implied
negative
> information about my financial stability and my integrity
both here
> and on IRC.
i do believe i've read your comments on selling cd's to get
money for cereal to feed the kids. you state your financial
woes and then mention that you going to cat in mo. on a
plane to get a tattoo. i don't know what other people have
said in other forums, but your finances have been recorded
and read here. ?? i don't care if you paid for your tattoo
or not. or if you paid cash, a painting or baby sat the
elspethster.
scott
Angela Kuhns
>> so, for example, go ahead and get your cooter pierced with
>bling-bling
>> and use those terms if you choose, but don't kid yourself
>that those
>> terms are proper or correct. :D
>
>is she piercing her cooter with a ball closure ring or a
>captive bead ring?
I wasn't aware that either of those terms had any other meaning than
what they are. How is this relevant? or are you just trying to smoke
screen?
>new word are created and documented to be
>added to our vocabulary constantly.
thank you Captain Obvious.
>before art nouveau, what
>did they call byzantine influenced and pre-raphael art? they
>used to call them tattoo guns. they become descriptive
>words. aka adjectives. again (without briang's permission),
>a chair is a chair. a wood chair. a white wood chair.
>
>what's tribal-nouveau??
>
so, you are saying that you would rather use confusing terminology
when trying to have a discussion and that no one should correct those
terms in order to clarify rthe subject being debated?
why?
please expand on this so I might see what your point is.
Angela Kuhns
<sc...@saintsabrinas.com> wrote:
>Angela Kuhns wrote
>> For the record, I did pay for my tattoos and I am highly
>offended at
>> the assumptions and down right lies that have implied
>negative
>> information about my financial stability and my integrity
>both here
>> and on IRC.
>
>i do believe i've read your comments on selling cd's to get
>money for cereal to feed the kids. you state your financial
>woes and then mention that you going to cat in mo. on a
>plane to get a tattoo.
So, because I was in a financial bind during certain periods of my
life, I am always dirt poor?
what does that have to do with how I can afford to fly on a plane to
see cat in missouri after that crisis had been alleviated?
I have had times when I have had to go to the food bank and get non
parishables to feed my children, I have had times when I was recieving
food stamps, hell, I have had times when I was homeless and didn't
even know when I would be able to change my circumstances.
Does that mean I will never be able to be well off in the future? no.
>i don't know what other people have
>said in other forums, but your finances have been recorded
>and read here.
wow... really?
thanks for pointing that out. Doesn't change what has been said
presently about me.
>?? i don't care if you paid for your tattoo
>or not. or if you paid cash, a painting or baby sat the
>elspethster.
well, gee. Good thing I don't give a rats tail about whether or not
you personally care then, huh? why you felt obligated to add this
comment if you don't care, is beyond me.
---Angie a.k.a. D-Strss
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
--Rita Mae Brown
.
> I missed out on participating in this thread last week due to my ISP
> cancelling their NNTP service without sending out email notification
> of the change. I have set up a free news access account and spamguard
> over the weekend. In case any of you have missed me and wondered why I
> disappeared, rest assured. I am back.
> I just have to comment on a few things though, so instead of
> responding to 26 separate week old posts, here it is in a nut shell.
> about whether Cat's work is tribal vs. art nouveau:
Its a moot point, I think, because both terms are dumb and meaningless
because of extreme overuse by tattoo artists and art students.
:)
-----.
--
"George Dubya Bush---the best presidency money can buy"
---obviously some Godless commie heathen faggot bastard
scott bock
> >scott wrote
> >is she piercing her cooter with a ball closure ring or a
> >captive bead ring?
>
> I wasn't aware that either of those terms had any other
meaning than
> what they are. How is this relevant? or are you just
trying to smoke
> screen?
it's two different ways to say the same thing. accept the
fact that "tribally swirls" and "art-nouveau-y swirls" can
look similar, if not the same. again, if we could sit down a
panel of artists and give a quiz, i bet we'd *all* be
surprised at what they "label" what.
> >new word are created and documented to be
> >added to our vocabulary constantly.
>
> thank you Captain Obvious.
you can call me O.
> >before art nouveau, what
> >did they call byzantine influenced and pre-raphael art?
they
> >used to call them tattoo guns. they become descriptive
> >words. aka adjectives. again (without briang's
permission),
> >a chair is a chair. a wood chair. a white wood chair.
> >
> >what's tribal-nouveau??
> >
>
> so, you are saying that you would rather use confusing
terminology
> when trying to have a discussion and that no one should
correct those
> terms in order to clarify rthe subject being debated?
i'm saying, we're using *widely accepted* terminology. i
have already wished cat luck in his endeavors to educate the
world of tattoo artists and the collectors of tattoos. and,
correct me if i'm wrong, cat, but i think cat has
acknowledged the fact that some people will call some swirls
tribal til the end of time. we can all do what we can, if we
can, or if we want to, to help educate others on the
differences. but not get pissed off at everyone who knows
not the difference.
people will always think my ears hurt me and come up to ask
how i survive. i will always say " no, they don't hurt. it
was a slow process." and try not to get pissed off and
assume they understand. in any industry there will always be
those who are happy with the present, those who want to
progress, those who will accept progression and those who
will not. the idea is to relax, it's not that big of a deal.
Judith Grunberger
> On Mon, 14 May 2001 13:19:25 -0500, Judith Grunberger
>
> >> the definition of a word.
> >
> >yes it does :)
>
> no, it creates a slang definition that is different from the original
> meaning.
and how is this "slang definition" any less valid? this is how language
evolves.
> >> You are talking about the validity of "tribal" as a slang term, I am
> >> not. When discussing art styles and art history, slang definitions are
> >> at the very least confusing and at most irrelevant.
> >
> >yes.
> >
> >so?
>
> so, for example, go ahead and get your cooter pierced with bling-bling
> and use those terms if you choose, but don't kid yourself that those
> terms are proper or correct. :D
those terms *certainly* are propper and correct.
retarded, but correct.
same goes for the use of "tribal" to describe swirly blackwork.
anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use TTSCKAT, or:
The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
scott bock
Angela Kuhns wrote
> So, because I was in a financial bind during certain
periods of my
> life, I am always dirt poor?
i think that's rhetorical.
> >i don't know what other people have
> >said in other forums, but your finances have been
recorded
> >and read here.
>
> wow... really?
> thanks for pointing that out. Doesn't change what has been
said
> presently about me.
you brought this all out. you sound bitter and sarcastic to
me for responding to your post.
> >?? i don't care if you paid for your tattoo
> >or not. or if you paid cash, a painting or baby sat the
> >elspethster.
>
> well, gee. Good thing I don't give a rats tail about
whether or not
> you personally care then, huh? why you felt obligated to
add this
> comment if you don't care, is beyond me.
again, you are baiting me to a response you can *react* to.
it was compensation. in any way. i don't care if or how you
paid. this all came about, was discussed and closed. i guess
i didn't need to respond to your attempt at validation. i
didn't know if you give/ gave a rat's ass about what i
personally care, ever. i hope you like your tattoo(s). your
happiness is what matters most to you. :)
scott bock
> retarded, but correct.
>
> same goes for the use of "tribal" to describe swirly
blackwork.
>
> anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use
TTSCKAT, or:
>
> The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
or CANISS : cat's art nouveau influenced swirly stuff.
scott
Angela Kuhns
<sc...@saintsabrinas.com> wrote:
>Angela Kuhns wrote
>> >scott wrote
>> >is she piercing her cooter with a ball closure ring or a
>> >captive bead ring?
>>
>> I wasn't aware that either of those terms had any other
>meaning than
>> what they are. How is this relevant? or are you just
>trying to smoke
>> screen?
>
>it's two different ways to say the same thing. accept the
>fact that "tribally swirls" and "art-nouveau-y swirls" can
>look similar, if not the same. again, if we could sit down a
>panel of artists and give a quiz, i bet we'd *all* be
>surprised at what they "label" what.
Actually, they can't look "the same" but I see your point.
As for the idea of a panel of artists, that is why I decided to throw
my opinions on the matter out here.
>> >new word are created and documented to be
>> >added to our vocabulary constantly.
>>
>> thank you Captain Obvious.
>
>you can call me O.
heheh
ok, O
>> >before art nouveau, what
>> >did they call byzantine influenced and pre-raphael art?
>they
>> >used to call them tattoo guns. they become descriptive
>> >words. aka adjectives. again (without briang's
>permission),
>> >a chair is a chair. a wood chair. a white wood chair.
>> >
>> >what's tribal-nouveau??
>> >
>>
>> so, you are saying that you would rather use confusing
>terminology
>> when trying to have a discussion and that no one should
>correct those
>> terms in order to clarify rthe subject being debated?
>
>i'm saying, we're using *widely accepted* terminology. i
>have already wished cat luck in his endeavors to educate the
>world of tattoo artists and the collectors of tattoos. and,
>correct me if i'm wrong, cat, but i think cat has
>acknowledged the fact that some people will call some swirls
>tribal til the end of time.
Ahh, okay. We were on separate subjects. Of course some people will
always say what they want even if evidence of the mistake is shown to
them. I am not posting for those people. I posted the information for
people who care and would like to know.
>we can all do what we can, if we
>can, or if we want to, to help educate others on the
>differences. but not get pissed off at everyone who knows
>not the difference.
Okay, I didn't see him get pissed off at anyone for not knowing the
difference, but otherwise, yeah.
Angela Kuhns
<jcoo...@eris.io.com> wrote:
<snip>
>and how is this "slang definition" any less valid? this is how language
>evolves.
>
<snip>
>
>those terms *certainly* are propper and correct.
>
>retarded, but correct.
>
>same goes for the use of "tribal" to describe swirly blackwork.
>
>anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use TTSCKAT, or:
>
>The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
>
I'm sorry. I cannot even fathom how to respond to these assertions.
We were talking in academics and you've switched to cultural
significance.
/me head explodes
Judith Grunberger
> On Mon, 14 May 2001 14:39:32 -0500, Judith Grunberger
> <jcoo...@eris.io.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >and how is this "slang definition" any less valid? this is how language
> >evolves.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >those terms *certainly* are propper and correct.
> >
> >retarded, but correct.
> >
> >same goes for the use of "tribal" to describe swirly blackwork.
> >
> >anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use TTSCKAT, or:
> >
> >The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
> >
>
> I'm sorry. I cannot even fathom how to respond to these assertions.
>
> We were talking in academics and you've switched to cultural
> significance.
>
> /me head explodes
No.
YOU were talking in academics.
:)
Angela Kuhns
<sc...@saintsabrinas.com> wrote:
>
>Angela Kuhns wrote
>> So, because I was in a financial bind during certain
>periods of my
>> life, I am always dirt poor?
>
>i think that's rhetorical.
>
>> >i don't know what other people have
>> >said in other forums, but your finances have been
>recorded
>> >and read here.
>>
>> wow... really?
>> thanks for pointing that out. Doesn't change what has been
>said
>> presently about me.
>
>you brought this all out. you sound bitter and sarcastic to
>me for responding to your post.
I was being sarcastic because I never denied having mentioned such
things. I am not bitter with you or your response. Any ill feeling I
have are involved with those you have implied or flat out stated that
I am robbing food from my children's mouths to pay for tattoos.
>> >?? i don't care if you paid for your tattoo
>> >or not. or if you paid cash, a painting or baby sat the
>> >elspethster.
>>
>> well, gee. Good thing I don't give a rats tail about
>whether or not
>> you personally care then, huh? why you felt obligated to
>add this
>> comment if you don't care, is beyond me.
>
>again, you are baiting me to a response you can *react* to.
>it was compensation.
Actually I was serious. That comment could have hurt if I knew you at
all simply due to the subject I was writing about.
>in any way. i don't care if or how you
>paid. this all came about, was discussed and closed.
Actually, I didn't have a chance to discuss anything of the sort and I
was actually named in the thread concerning the matter. I think I had
every right to comment.
>i guess i didn't need to respond to your attempt at validation.
validation? hmmm. no.
clarification and declaration.
In any case, your point of view has been noted. Thanks.
Angela Kuhns
wrote:
>I was being sarcastic because I never denied having mentioned such
>things. I am not bitter with you or your response. Any ill feeling I
>have are involved with those you have implied or flat out stated that
>I am robbing food from my children's mouths to pay for tattoos.
ACK that should have said:
>Any ill feeling I
>have are involved with those WHO have implied or flat out stated that
>I am robbing food from my children's mouths to pay for tattoos.
doh
---Angie a.k.a. D-Strss
I have no wisdom and nothing useful to tell you --
I only mentioned this because it came into my head.
- Russell Hoban
scott bock
"scott bock"wrote:
> >it's two different ways to say the same thing. accept the
> >fact that "tribally swirls" and "art-nouveau-y swirls"
can
> >look similar, if not the same. again, if we could sit
down a
> >panel of artists and give a quiz, i bet we'd *all* be
> >surprised at what they "label" what.
>
> Actually, they can't look "the same" but I see your point.
similar?? to you they can't look the same. to millions of
people, they can. a box full of various capacitor will
always look like a big box full of caps. you could show me
the differences, but i may never really be able to tell the
differences. i guess i lack the intelligence. or the
motivation to dedicate what intelligence i have to know the
differences. to me, all i need to know, is that they are
capacitors.
i pierce tougs all day. and tongs and tougues and touungs
and navals and clits and bellys. when i do, i tell them, "
i'm piercing your tongue, navel and in most cases, clit
hood". when they come in again or email me with a question
about said toung, naval and clit, i answer the question. *i*
know what they mean. and i don't waste my energy correcting
everyone. i think people might see red in one of your
paintings, even though you know it maroon. (??) but if they
love you painting, letg it be red to them.
> As for the idea of a panel of artists, that is why I
decided to throw
> my opinions on the matter out here.
yeah, that was tried.
> >i'm saying, we're using *widely accepted* terminology. i
> >have already wished cat luck in his endeavors to educate
the
> >world of tattoo artists and the collectors of tattoos.
and,
> >correct me if i'm wrong, cat, but i think cat has
> >acknowledged the fact that some people will call some
swirls
> >tribal til the end of time.
>
> Ahh, okay. We were on separate subjects. Of course some
people will
> always say what they want even if evidence of the mistake
is shown to
> them. I am not posting for those people. I posted the
information for
> people who care and would like to know.
yep. people still commit crimes even though they *know* they
aren't supposed to and that there *may* be consequences.
<shrug>
scott
scott bock
Judith Grunbergerwrote:
>
> >and how is this "slang definition" any less valid? this
is how language
> >evolves.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >those terms *certainly* are propper and correct.
> >
> >retarded, but correct.
> >
> >same goes for the use of "tribal" to describe swirly
blackwork.
> >
> >anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use
TTSCKAT, or:
> >
> >The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
> >
>
> I'm sorry. I cannot even fathom how to respond to these
assertions.
>
> We were talking in academics and you've switched to
cultural
> significance.
>
> /me head explodes
remember when *ain't* was not in the dictionary. people
hated it when it was put in. IT'S A WORD, IT'S A WORD !!!!
ElizaU4ea
The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal >>
Hey, go for it. (Characters in the movie "Metropolitan" tried to do something
similar, if you've seen that.) If you use it in enough conversations with
enough tattoo enthusiaists (with an air of authority, of course) perhaps the
meaning of "ttsckat" will be debated in this newsgroup a couple of years from
now.
Of course, I think acronyms catch on best if easier to pronounce . . .
CatBones
> anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use TTSCKAT, or:
> The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
Is that pronounced "Tits-Cat", or "Tut Scat"? Or how?
--
oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo
8$:` .8$$8. ';8$'
8$. ,8$ $8, :8$
'8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$
http://www.catbones.com/
Judith Grunberger
> Judith Grunberger wrote:
>
> > anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use TTSCKAT, or:
> > The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
>
> Is that pronounced "Tits-Cat", or "Tut Scat"? Or how?
"t-scat"
kind of like "tszimmes," but not quite.
Tabaqui
"." wrote:
> Its a moot point, I think, because both terms are dumb and meaningless
> because of extreme overuse by tattoo artists and art students.
Ummmm, what? How is art nouveau an overused term? I don't
get it.
Please enlighten me, oh nameless one.
TQ
intergalactic snitty princess
>Judith Grunberger wrote:
>
>> anyway, from now on, instead of "tribal," im going to use TTSCKAT, or:
>> The Tattoo Style Commonly Known As Tribal
>
>Is that pronounced "Tits-Cat", or "Tut Scat"? Or how?
tut \Tut\ Be still; hush; -- an exclamation used for checking or rebuking
scat3 (skt) n. Excrement, especially of an animal; dung.
great, now i don't have tribal, i have silenced poop on my arm.
~christyn
***yank ME to reply***
John McGrail
>From an design and fine art stand point, Tribal is geometric based
>design while art nouveau "swirls" are very biomorphicly based.
>is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>inspired by or a variation of tribal design.
And where do _your_ definitions come from?
Language evolves. Context is important.
--
Siobhan
That or Cat's tits. Either way, I'm disturbed.
Siobhan
Anyway, I thought Cat was skinny? No man-boobs in the photos I've seen.
--
The second confusing thing about Australia is the animals. They can be
divided into three categories: Poisonous, Odd, and Sheep. - Douglas Adams
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/donttellmewhatsizeimustb
Tabaqui
Siobhan wrote:
> "intergalactic snitty princess" <snitty...@exciteME.com> wrote:
> > great, now i don't have tribal, i have silenced poop on my arm.
>
> That or Cat's tits. Either way, I'm disturbed.
Good god.
I would be, too.
And NO, Cat does not have man-tits. He's pretty flat up
there. But, you know, SIZE doesn't matter....hehehehe
TQ
Angela Kuhns
From my art history text books and various dictionaries.
>Language evolves. Context is important.
Well, we are talking about art origins. That is the context.
HTH
---Angie a.k.a. D-Strss
"One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory."
--Rita Mae Brown
John McGrail
>On Mon, 14 May 2001 23:02:14 GMT, skat...@REMOVEME.channel1.com (John
>McGrail) wrote:
>
>>des...@deadspam.com (Angela Kuhns) wrote:
>>>From an design and fine art stand point, Tribal is geometric based
>>>design while art nouveau "swirls" are very biomorphicly based.
>>>From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
>>>is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>>>inspired by or a variation of tribal design.
>>
>>And where do _your_ definitions come from?
>
>From my art history text books and various dictionaries.
>
>>Language evolves. Context is important.
>
>Well, we are talking about art origins. That is the context.
Different context. My two sentences, taken together imply the context within
which one uses certain language helps define that language.
--
Rncewind
>> >scott wrote
>> >is she piercing her cooter with a ball closure ring or a
>> >captive bead ring?
>>
>> I wasn't aware that either of those terms had any other
>meaning than
>> what they are. How is this relevant? or are you just
>trying to smoke
>> screen?
>
>it's two different ways to say the same thing.
Ummm.... I thought that cbr's were a 2-piece construction, consisting of a
ring, and a bead. Whereas a ball closure ring is a one piece construction
where you hide the end of the "ring" inside the "bead" which is actually welded
on, or somehow else attached. I had a problem with this when ordering some
jewelry, but they wound up sending circular barbells, anyway. But that's
another story.....
Rncewind
What's the name of the word for the precise moment when you realize that you've
actually forgotten how it felt to make love to somebody you really liked a long
time ago? -Delirium
Angela Kuhns
McGrail) wrote:
>des...@deadspam.com (Angela Kuhns) wrote:
>>On Mon, 14 May 2001 23:02:14 GMT, skat...@REMOVEME.channel1.com (John
>>McGrail) wrote:
>>
>>>des...@deadspam.com (Angela Kuhns) wrote:
>>>>From an design and fine art stand point, Tribal is geometric based
>>>>design while art nouveau "swirls" are very biomorphicly based.
>>>>From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
>>>>is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>>>>inspired by or a variation of tribal design.
>>>
>>>And where do _your_ definitions come from?
>>
>>From my art history text books and various dictionaries.
>>
>Specifically, which ones?
Doubting my artistic knowledge or my ability to read dictionaries?
Would you like a copy of my college transcripts and letters of
reccomendation from my professors? ; )
If you really want to know...
Textbooks and other reference books I own and have studied:
Modern Architecture Since 1900 --William J.R. Curtis
Art Fundamentals Theory and Practice 8th edition --Ocvirk, Stinson,
Wigg, Bone, Clayton
A World of Art 3rd edition --Henry M. Sayre
Gardner's Art Through The Ages vol. 1 & 2 10th edition --Tansey
Kleiner
Learning to Look at Paintings --Mary Acton
The Story of Art --Ernst Hans Gombrich
The Nude --Kenneth M. Clark, Baron Clark
Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist --Stephen Rogers, Peck
From El Greco to Goya : Painting in Spain, 1561-1828 --Janis Tomlinson
Minimalism Themes and Movements --James Meyer
The Philosophy and Politics of Abstract Expressionism : 1940-1960
--Nancy Jachec
Ancient Mosaics --Roger Ling
The Art of Ancient Egypt --Gay Robins
Archaic and Classical Greek Art (Oxford History of Art) --Robin
Osborne
Byzantium : From Antiquity to the Renaissance --Thomas F. Mathews
Reflections on Baroque --Robert Harbison
The Baroque : Architecture, Sculpture, Painting --Rolf Toman
Studies in Byzantine and medieval Western art --John Beckwith
The Dada Movement, 1915-1923 --Marc Dachy
The Art of Impressionism : Painting Technique & the Making of
Modernity --Anthea Callen
19th-Century Art --H. W. Janson, Robert Rosenblum
Northern Renaissance Art --James Snyder
ArtSpeak : A Guide to Contemporary Ideas, Movements, and Buzzwords,
1945 to the Present --Robert Atkins
Writing About Art 3rd edition --Henry M.Sayre
Artwriting --David Carrier
Criticizing Photographs : An Introduction to Understanding Images 2nd
edition --Terry Barrett
Art in Theory 1900-1990 : An Anthology of Changing Ideas --Charles
Harrison
Photography 6th edition --Barbara London, John Upton
The Encyclopedia of Watercolor Techniques --Hazel Harrison
The Great Masters --Giorgio Vasari
The Metropolitan Museum of Art Guide
Old Masters Brought To Light :European Paintings From the National
Museum of Art of Romania
Pillars of the Almighty : Photographs by f-stop Fitzgerald; a
Celebration of Cathedrals --Ken Follett
Racinet's Historic Ornament in Full Color --Auguste Racinet
Clip Art Book of Designs : More than 5000 Motifs from Around the World
--Dorothy Bosomworth
Bosch : The Complete Paintings by the Visionary Master --Erik Larsen
Monet to Moore: The Millenium Gift of the Sara Lee Corporation
--Richard R. Brettell
Schiele Drawings : 44 works --Egon Schiele
A Grand Design : The Art of the Victoria and Albert Museum
-[publisher- Harry N. Abrams]
I took the liberty of not including non-art related texts. hope you
don't mind. Also, I may have missed a few. Not all our boxes got
unpacked after the move.
As for dictionaries and definition reference books I have:
The Official Scrabble Player's Dictionary 2nd edition --Merriam
Webster
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language 3rd edition
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
The Merriam Webster Dictionary : Home and Office Edition
The New American Webster Handy College Dictionary
Illustrated Reverse Dictionary : Find the Words on the Tip of Your
Tongue
The Synonym Finder --J.I. Rodale
Webster's New World Thesaurus --Charlton Laird
But if I am feeling to lazy to cross the room to my book shelves there
is always:
http://www.m-w.com (merriam webster online dictionary)
http://www.dictionary.com
http://www.thesaurus.com
HTH
>>>Context is important.
>>
>>Well, we are talking about art origins. That is the context.
>
>Different context. My two sentences, taken together imply the context within
>which one uses certain language helps define that language.
Direct context would be the conversation and quoted text in your
message, or what you are directly responding to.
Context could also be taken to be the thread topic we are discussing.
Context _is_ important, but so is comprehension.
*smooch*
Angela Kuhns
<sc...@saintsabrinas.com> wrote:
>Angela Kuhns wrote
>"scott bock"wrote:
>> >it's two different ways to say the same thing. accept the
>> >fact that "tribally swirls" and "art-nouveau-y swirls"
>can
>> >look similar, if not the same. again, if we could sit
>down a
>> >panel of artists and give a quiz, i bet we'd *all* be
>> >surprised at what they "label" what.
>>
>> Actually, they can't look "the same" but I see your point.
>
>similar?? to you they can't look the same. to millions of
>people, they can.
no, they can't.
The same means identical.
They can look similar, but not identical.
Geometric can't be biomorphic simply by definition.
*shrug*
Siobhan
> Siobhan wrote:
> > That or Cat's tits. Either way, I'm disturbed.
>
> Good god.
> I would be, too.
Especially given that the only tits he can lay any sort of claim to (seeing
as how you deny he has any of his own) are yours. *eg*
> And NO, Cat does not have man-tits. He's pretty flat up
> there. But, you know, SIZE doesn't matter....hehehehe
Of course not. But the whole "more than a mouthful's a waste" thing doesn't
apply to guys. :o)
Siobhan
Or girls, dammit. My five mouthfuls, three handfuls and a bucketful for good
measure are appreciated mightily by He Who Matters. So there.
scott bock
> >> >scott wrote
> >> >is she piercing her cooter with a ball closure ring or
a
> >> >captive bead ring?
>
> Ummm.... I thought that cbr's were a 2-piece
construction, consisting of a
> ring, and a bead. Whereas a ball closure ring is a one
piece construction
> where you hide the end of the "ring" inside the "bead"
which is actually welded
> on, or somehow else attached. I had a problem with this
when ordering some
> jewelry, but they wound up sending circular barbells,
anyway. But that's
> another story.....
those would be; bead rings or fixed bead rings. but hey,
call 'em what you want. :)
scott bock
> "scott bock"wrote:
>
> >
> >people, they can.
>
> no, they can't.
> The same means identical.
> They can look similar, but not identical.
> Geometric can't be biomorphic simply by definition.
>
> *shrug*
huge shrug.
no, nothing is the same. flash on the wall is still
recreated each and every time. different artists and
different canvas. nothing is ever the same. yes, similar.
every taz out there is still a custom, individually rendered
taz. geomorphic cannot be biometric. ok. i still hope *you*
like *your* tattoo.
scott
CatBones
> those would be; bead rings or fixed bead rings. but hey,
> call 'em what you want. :)
Wait, call 'em what you want..?
But if he calls 'em what they *ARE*, then other people who know what
they ARE will know what he's talking about and...
NO hold on - I've tried very hard to stay out of this thread.. (I made
enough people mad in my own "call it what it is" thread, heheheh..)
NEVER MIND. ;)
cheers!
Cat
---
scott bock
> scott bock wrote:
>
> > those would be; bead rings or fixed bead rings. but hey,
> > call 'em what you want. :)
>
> Wait, call 'em what you want..?
> But if he calls 'em what they *ARE*, then other people who
know what
> they ARE will know what he's talking about and...
> NO hold on - I've tried very hard to stay out of this
thread.. (I made
> enough people mad in my own "call it what it is" thread,
heheheh..)
> NEVER MIND. ;)
that's what i meant though. when someone asks where the
tongue rings are, i point them to the barbells and go about
my business. i wouldn't get anything done if i tried to
correct every one and everything. not that i *never* correct
people. bleh.
scott
John McGrail
>>>>>From an design and fine art stand point, Tribal is geometric based
>>>>>design while art nouveau "swirls" are very biomorphicly based.
>>>>>From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
>>>>>is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>>>>>inspired by or a variation of tribal design.
>>>>
>>>>And where do _your_ definitions come from?
>>>
>>>From my art history text books and various dictionaries.
>>>
>>Specifically, which ones?
>
>Doubting my artistic knowledge or my ability to read dictionaries?
at the top. I believe all of that is _your opinion_. Not the opinion of the
entire art world. Perhaps it's a fairly art-educated opinion, and perhaps
it's an opinion shared by many, but without specific references it's still
just your opinion.
You're welcome to provide some specific references that state tribal is
geometric and art nouveau swirls are biomorphicly based. You're also welcome
to provide some specific references that state "Tribal are must be produced by
a valid old-world recognized tribe.". Until then, it's just your opinion and
I'll be reading books about r/c vehicles and OpenBSD and firewalls as they're
the current topics of interest to me.
>
>Context _is_ important, but so is comprehension.
>
And, believe you me, I have no trouble with comprehension. I don't have to
agree with what I'm comprehending, but I can still comprehend.
>
>*smooch*
>
Rub my belly?
--
Angela Kuhns
McGrail) wrote:
>des...@deadspam.com (Angela Kuhns) wrote:
>>>>>>From an design and fine art stand point, Tribal is geometric based
>>>>>>design while art nouveau "swirls" are very biomorphicly based.
>>>>>>From a pure definition standpoint, Tribal means from a tribe so there
>>>>>>is no way in hell it can be tribal. Neo-tribal or tribalesque means
>>>>>>inspired by or a variation of tribal design.
>>>>>
>>>>>And where do _your_ definitions come from?
>>>>
>>>>From my art history text books and various dictionaries.
>>>>
>>>Specifically, which ones?
>>
>>Doubting my artistic knowledge or my ability to read dictionaries?
>Doubting neither. Looking for specific references for the quoted paragraph up
>at the top. I believe all of that is _your opinion_. Not the opinion of the
>entire art world. Perhaps it's a fairly art-educated opinion, and perhaps
>it's an opinion shared by many, but without specific references it's still
>just your opinion.
No, it would be an educated conclusion not an opinion. I stated facts.
Since you demand it, I will dig up a couple 'specific references' but
of course you will probably still dispute it and tell me how I don't
know what I am trained to know. I do take some offense to that. :P
>You're welcome to provide some specific references that state tribal is
>geometric and art nouveau swirls are biomorphicly based.
Both true tribal and what you are trying to label tribal are geometric
designs. Just by looking at them you know its true. Even if there
isn't literally geometric shapes appearing in the piece, there is a
measured balance to the design with a symmetrical balance, radial
balance, or repetition of design that is obvious.(1)
Geometric-
Main Entry: geo·met·ric
Pronunciation: "jE-&-'me-trik
Variant(s): or geo·met·ri·cal /-'me-tri-k&l/
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a : of, relating to, or according to the methods or principles of
geometry b : increasing in a geometric progression <geometric
population growth>
2 capitalized : of or relating to a style of ancient Greek pottery
characterized by geometric decorative motifs
3 a : utilizing rectilinear or simple curvilinear motifs or outlines
in design b : of or relating to art based on simple geometric shapes
(as straight lines, circles, or squares) <geometric abstractions>(2)
There is no way that the flow and lines of what you are trying to
label as tribal could be biomorphic.
biomorphic-
Main Entry: bio·mor·phic
Pronunciation: "bI-O-'mor-fik
Function: adjective
Date: 1895
: resembling or suggesting the forms of living organisms <biomorphic sculptures> <biomorphic images>(3)
"Art Nouveau- decorative style of the 1890's marked by the tendrillike
lines and swirling forms."(4)
"Art Nouveau was a movement whose proponents tried to synthesize all
the arts, in a determined attempt to create art based on natural
forms..." (5)
Both of these definitions of Art Nouveau point towards biomorphic or
the more generic term of organic and not geometric.
>You're also welcome
>to provide some specific references that state "Tribal are must be produced by
>a valid old-world recognized tribe.".
I never stated that it had to come from 'a valid old-world recognized
tribe.' By definition, it just has to come from ANY tribe.
tribal-
Main Entry: trib·al
Pronunciation: 'trI-b&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1632
: of, relating to, or characteristic of a tribe <tribal customs>
- trib·al·ly /-b&-lE/ adverb (6)
tribe-
Main Entry: tribe
Pronunciation: 'trIb
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin tribus, a division of the Roman
people, tribe
Date: 13th century
1 a : a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or
generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers b :
a political division of the Roman people orig. representing one of the
three original tribes of ancient Rome c : PHYLE
2 : a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or
interest
3 : a category of taxonomic classification ranking below a subfamily;
also : a natural group irrespective of taxonomic rank <the cat tribe>
<rose tribe> (7)
Unless that piece of flash was created by a tribesman in a style
relating to his tribal culture or copied from such a person, it cannot
be tribal.
If the flash was created in the style of, or taken and expanded upon
tribal art, then it could be labeled neo-tribal or tribalesque, but
that is still not tribal.
neo-
Main Entry: ne-
Variant(s): or neo-
Function: combining form
Etymology: Greek, from neos new -- more at NEW
1 a : new : recent <Neogene> b : new and different period or form of
<Neoplatonism> : in a new and different form or manner <Neoplatonic> c
: New World <Neotropical> d : new and abnormal <neoplasm>
2 : new chemical compound isomeric with or otherwise related to (such)
a compound <neostigmine> (8)
-esque
Main Entry: -esque
Pronunciation: 'esk
Function: adjective suffix
Etymology: French, from Italian -esco, of Germanic origin; akin to Old
High German -isc -ish -- more at -ISH
: in the manner or style of : like <statuesque> (9)
>Until then, it's just your opinion and
>I'll be reading books about r/c vehicles and OpenBSD and firewalls as they're
>the current topics of interest to me.
I'll be reading religious texts, books on spiritual philosophy and
books on the paranormal are they're the current topics of interest to
me.
:D
>>Context _is_ important, but so is comprehension.
>And, believe you me, I have no trouble with comprehension. I don't have to
>agree with what I'm comprehending, but I can still comprehend.
I should hope you could. As for agreeing, it doesn't matter what you
agree or disagree with, I just wanted to offer up the information to
those who wonder what the facts are in this debate and actually care
if they are mistaken in their perceptions. Too allow the spread of
false information as fact and not speak up when I know how wrong that
information is goes against my personal ethical standards.
>>*smooch*
>>
>Rub my belly?
*puuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*
reference list
(1)Ocvirk Stinson Wigg Bone Cayton, "Atr Fundamentals : Theory and
Practice" 8th ed., (1998) Chapter 4, section title: The Definition of
Shape pp. 95-98.
(2,3,6,7,8,9) http://www.m-w.com
(4)John Ellison Kahn MA DPhil,"Illustrated Reverse Dictionary : Find
the Words on the Tip of Your Tongue", (1990) p. 36.
(5)Richard G. Tansey and Fred S. Kleiner, "Gardner's Art Through the
Ages" 10th ed. vol. 2, (1996) p.1023.
Tabaqui
Angela Kuhns wrote:
<snip huge, extremely interesting post with definitions of
tribal, etc...>
Yay, Angie, you ROCK!!
:)
TQ
CatBones
> No, it would be an educated conclusion not an opinion. I stated facts.
We've already been through "facts vs. opinions," and the oponents in
this discussion can't conceed that there can even be factual viewpoints
with regard for interpreting (and labeling) artistic styles.
Even with the VERY GOOD evidence you delivered in defining geometric vs.
biomorphic elements of design, I'm sure that the oponents will stand by
their notion that they're "inventing their own language" (well, they
call it the evolution of language) and all our historical references or
academic definitions aren't going to stop them from clinging to sloppy
linguistic form.
It ALL goes into the neo-tribal melting pot, fuck the academics and the
history of the elements in question.
Good effort, though, Angie. I admire you for trying. ;)
scott bock
> I never stated that it had to come from 'a valid old-world
recognized
> tribe.' By definition, it just has to come from ANY tribe.
>
> tribal-
> Main Entry: trib·al
> Pronunciation: 'trI-b&l
> Function: adjective
> Date: 1632
> : of, relating to, or characteristic of a tribe <tribal
customs>
> - trib·al·ly /-b&-lE/ adverb (6)
>
> tribe-
> Main Entry: tribe
> Pronunciation: 'trIb
> Function: noun
> 2 : a group of persons having a common character,
occupation, or
> interest
are the french a tribe then? ART NOUVEAU ARTISTS ARE A
TRIBE!!!!!
Angela Kuhns
wrote:
*blush*
thanks.
Glad it didn't come across as overly ostentatious.
Corine
news:3b02ad5f$0$327$6536...@news.bitstream.net...
> are the french a tribe then? ART NOUVEAU ARTISTS ARE A
> TRIBE!!!!!
>
*No!!!!
We're plain individualistic bastards!
We never agree on anything.
There's no way you can make us a tribe or create a group feeling unless
there's an international soccer game going on...Then we're, at most, one
nation ;)
Corine
Angela Kuhns
wrote:
>Even with the VERY GOOD evidence you delivered in defining geometric vs.
>biomorphic elements of design, I'm sure that the oponents will stand by
>their notion that they're "inventing their own language" (well, they
>call it the evolution of language) and all our historical references or
>academic definitions aren't going to stop them from clinging to sloppy
>linguistic form.
Oh, I was fully aware of that particular dismissal argument before
posting the original post in this second thread on the subject.
>It ALL goes into the neo-tribal melting pot, fuck the academics and the
>history of the elements in question.
sad, isn't it?
Ignorance is no excuse, especially if it is not innocent lack of
knowledge but rather a stubborn refusal to concede after information
to the contrary has been presented.
That said, each person will choose their own response.
Free-will-- what a kicker. ;)
>Good effort, though, Angie. I admire you for trying. ;)
Just adding my voice to the Fine Arts representation here on RAB.
Angela Kuhns
<sc...@saintsabrinas.com> wrote:
>are the french a tribe then? ART NOUVEAU ARTISTS ARE A
>TRIBE!!!!!
>
hahahaha
cute.
but... in case anyone takes that seriously, no.
There was no French tribe that I am aware of in France during the
1890's. I doubt that all frenchmen shared all that much in common
outside of geography. Same as Americans today do not all have a common
thread other than the fact that they live in the United States.
Tabaqui
Angela Kuhns wrote:
> Glad it didn't come across as overly ostentatious.
*I* didn't think so - they wanted 'proof', they got it.
Can't ask for more.
TQ
Judith Grunberger
> On Wed, 16 May 2001 11:28:54 -0500, CatBones <catb...@acid.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Even with the VERY GOOD evidence you delivered in defining geometric vs.
> >biomorphic elements of design, I'm sure that the oponents will stand by
> >their notion that they're "inventing their own language" (well, they
> >call it the evolution of language) and all our historical references or
> >academic definitions aren't going to stop them from clinging to sloppy
> >linguistic form.
>
> Oh, I was fully aware of that particular dismissal argument before
> posting the original post in this second thread on the subject.
What you all have to realize is that nobody is dismissing your arguments
or calling them invalid.
I'm just telling you the way things are.
You are free to make value judgments on this; I am not even touching it.
--
Judith Grunberger
jcoo...@io.com
http://grunberger.net/
Angela Kuhns
<jcoo...@fnord.io.com> wrote:
>What you all have to realize is that nobody is dismissing your arguments
>or calling them invalid.
actually, some people were doing just that.
If you don't see it that way, that's fine for you.
>I'm just telling you the way things are.
Sometimes you need to take a stand when "the way things are" are not
the way you believe they should be.
This was a fairly unimportant subject. That much I'll give you.
For me, it's not the degree of intensity, it touches one of the major
priciples I live by. *shrug*
Judith Grunberger
> On Wed, 16 May 2001 16:24:56 -0500, Judith Grunberger
> <jcoo...@fnord.io.com> wrote:
>
> >What you all have to realize is that nobody is dismissing your arguments
> >or calling them invalid.
>
> actually, some people were doing just that.
> If you don't see it that way, that's fine for you.
OK.
Well.
*I* wasn't.
> >I'm just telling you the way things are.
>
> Sometimes you need to take a stand when "the way things are" are not
> the way you believe they should be.
Oh, yes, this is a given. Kudos to you.
I'm just informing you of the "losing battle" status of your... battle.
> This was a fairly unimportant subject. That much I'll give you.
> For me, it's not the degree of intensity, it touches one of the major
> priciples I live by. *shrug*
~judy
John McGrail
(snip wonderful references)
So, I've distilled the references ... here's the conclusions I glean:
o biomorphic and geometric are different.
o art nouveau is a decorative art style from the late 19th century
o art nouveau is very organic
o I need to learn more about some interesting art
o my definition of tribal is valid.
The last you'll disagree with. I think the 2nd and 3rd defintions for tribe
give me a little wiggle room. If we were sticking strictly to book
definitions. Which I'm not. Also, I think there's a lot of grey area in my
first conclusion.
Consider the following webpage of Trevor Marshall's work:
http://www.oceanictatau.com/Gallery1.html
These all fit within my definition of tribal (although, the fish and octopus
are not completely tribal, they only contain tribal bitsies). Clearly the work
is geometricly based. At the same time they flow with the body. I'm
wondering, are they (the works in general, not the fish and octopus)
discounted as organic or biomorphic simply because they don't represent or
suggest nature?
And, what about the swirly negative backgound image in the fish leg? Or the
swirls in the first three pictures? There's little difference between them
(the negative-space swirly bits) and the negative background swirlies in
Saram's arm.
>
>I should hope you could. As for agreeing, it doesn't matter what you
>agree or disagree with, I just wanted to offer up the information to
>those who wonder what the facts are in this debate and actually care
>if they are mistaken in their perceptions. Too allow the spread of
>false information as fact and not speak up when I know how wrong that
>information is goes against my personal ethical standards.
>
This is where the conversation breaks down for me. Specifically "if they are
mistaken in their perceptions" and "to allow the spread of false information
as fact". Those statements bother me in the same way as "Of course some
people will always say what they want even if evidence of the mistake is shown
to them" did. They give me the impression you look down on me for my views of
popular culture in the same way several of Cat's statements did. Since we're
talking about definitions and interpretation I think my views are no less
valid than yours.
You've provided a bunch of EVIDENCE to support your claims. But, you haven't
provided FACTS that prove I can't call the negative swirlies on the background
of Saram's arm tribal. All I have to do is go to BME and look at the tribal
net section for tons of pictures with black swirly shit. That's just as
factual as the stuff you serving up.
I don't believe either interpretation is wrong. I also don't think my view is
disrespectful to native tribes and their art. Perhaps that's because, despite
my label, I understand the differences between the various styles I roll into
the generic label "tribal."
>>>*smooch*
>>>
>>Rub my belly?
>
>*puuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*
>
Wait a minute! Aren't I supposed to be the purring one?
xoxo
--
CatBones
> These all fit within my definition of tribal (although, the fish and octopus
> are not completely tribal, they only contain tribal bitsies). Clearly the work
> is geometricly based. At the same time they flow with the body. I'm
Which tribe?
> And, what about the swirly negative backgound image in the fish leg? Or the
> swirls in the first three pictures? There's little difference between them
> (the negative-space swirly bits) and the negative background swirlies in
> Saram's arm.
True, there's little differece.
That's why when I look at them I don't think they are derrived from
tribal art.
That guy has a jazzy triskalion on his buttcheek. Wonder what tribe
that's drawn from?
> You've provided a bunch of EVIDENCE to support your claims. But, you haven't
> provided FACTS that prove I can't call the negative swirlies on the background
> of Saram's arm tribal. All I have to do is go to BME and look at the tribal
> net section for tons of pictures with black swirly shit. That's just as
> factual as the stuff you serving up.
Does that tribal net section explain which tribes? I've never looked at
it.
How do you know it's tribal and not "tribalesque"?
> I don't believe either interpretation is wrong. I also don't think my view is
> disrespectful to native tribes and their art. Perhaps that's because, despite
> my label, I understand the differences between the various styles I roll into
> the generic label "tribal."
Which Tribe is it once yuo roll it all up?
Do you think up customs and titles and holidays for the tribe too?
This is Angie's thread and her debate now, mine seemed to taper away.
(and I'm GLAD heheh..)
Now I'm just being obnoxious. =P
cheers!
John McGrail
>
>> And, what about the swirly negative backgound image in the fish leg? Or the
>> swirls in the first three pictures? There's little difference between them
>> (the negative-space swirly bits) and the negative background swirlies in
>> Saram's arm.
>
>True, there's little differece.
>That guy has a jazzy triskalion on his buttcheek. Wonder what tribe
>that's drawn from?
See if you knew _anything_ about tribal art, you'd know it's a pagan symbol
frequently found in celtic art. But, it doesn't really fit in with all the
other triskalion's I've seen as the balls are at the center and the ends are
pointy.
>
>Does that tribal net section explain which tribes?
It doesn't have to.
>How do you know it's tribal and not "tribalesque"?
'Cause its my definition. Which I share only with those I deem worthy.
>Now I'm just being obnoxious. =P
So am I. And, if experience is any guide, I'm hellabnoxios.
<obvious dig>
That's a nice tribal wolf you worked into Tabbie's backpiece!
</obvious dig>
--
CatBones
> >True, there's little differece.
> Woohoo! I win!
"There's little difference" meant that THAT was no more tribal than
Saram's swirles. =P
> See if you knew _anything_ about tribal art, you'd know it's a pagan symbol
> frequently found in celtic art. But, it doesn't really fit in with all the
> other triskalion's I've seen as the balls are at the center and the ends are
> pointy.
I DO know that triskalions are celtic in origin.
So we lump celtic into tribal too, with your definition, right?
Actually that's a lot closer to being tribal=from_a_tribe than parisian
and slavic art. =)
> >Does that tribal net section explain which tribes?
>
> It doesn't have to.
Well it does if they're claiming it's tribal!
> >Now I'm just being obnoxious. =P
>
> So am I. And, if experience is any guide, I'm hellabnoxios.
H0h0h0h0..
I only wish I could be as obnoxious in ascii as I can be in person,
Muahahahaha..
> <obvious dig>
> That's a nice tribal wolf you worked into Tabbie's backpiece!
> </obvious dig>
I suppose your definition for a "wolf tattoo" now also may include any
quadraped that looks in any way similar to a wolf? Heck yeah, bears
should easily qualify.. what's the difference if one is from the Ursa
family and one from Canus, It's your own variation on the language! I
mean if you're keeping your methods for defining things consistent. =P
John McGrail
>I DO know that triskalions are celtic in origin.
I didn't. I had to look it up on the net and plagiarize *cough* I mean
paraphase.
>So we lump celtic into tribal too, with your definition, right?
I suppose if one uses the current definition from mirriam webster, celtic art
would technically be a subset of tribal. But, no, I consider celtic
separately.
>> >Does that tribal net section explain which tribes?
>>
>> It doesn't have to.
>
>Well it does if they're claiming it's tribal!
>
Ok. I poked around on BME and found the tribe name ... It's the myagodsursan
tribe.
>> >Now I'm just being obnoxious. =P
>>
>> So am I. And, if experience is any guide, I'm hellabnoxios.
>
>H0h0h0h0..
>I only wish I could be as obnoxious in ascii as I can be in person,
>Muahahahaha..
It takes years of practice. Most of the time, I barely rise above the general
clammer of obnoxiousness around me. Occasionally though, I come up with a
doozy that makes Dad proud.
>> <obvious dig>
>> That's a nice tribal wolf you worked into Tabbie's backpiece!
>> </obvious dig>
>
>I suppose your definition for a "wolf tattoo" now also may include any
>quadraped that looks in any way similar to a wolf? Heck yeah, bears
>should easily qualify.. what's the difference if one is from the Ursa
>family and one from Canus, It's your own variation on the language!
They both eat and shit in the woods, right?
>I mean if you're keeping your methods for defining
>things consistent. =P
Where do the rules say I have to be consistent?
--
Keith Alexander
wrote:
>I DO know that triskalions are celtic in origin.
*** Plenty in Asian art, too.
---
k e i t h . a l e x a n d e r
http://www.modernamerican.com
http://www.nootrope.net
-- e n d . t r a n s m i s s i o n --
CatBones
> >I DO know that triskalions are celtic in origin.
>
> *** Plenty in Asian art, too.
True. Egyptian too. I guess a fundamental design like a three armed form
probably pops up here and there throughout the world. Hmmm. I've seen
then somewhere else and I'm trying to remember.
Nina Baltes
> o biomorphic and geometric are different.
Are they really?
http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
Geometric living organisms. Like many others.
Nina
--
http://chaotropic.net
C'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.
Louis Pasteur
CatBones
> > o biomorphic and geometric are different.
>
> Are they really?
> http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
> Geometric living organisms. Like many others.
Ehehehe..
The Art Nouveau movement would have had a whole different appeal if
they'd had electron microscope photos to draw their influences from,
rather than just flowers and butterflies seen from the naked eye. =)
You should get some of those tattooed on *yourself*, Nina!
I think they're YOU! =)
Cheers!
Cat
Nina Baltes
> Nina Baltes wrote:
>
> > > o biomorphic and geometric are different.
> >
> > Are they really?
> > http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
> > Geometric living organisms. Like many others.
>
> Ehehehe..
> The Art Nouveau movement would have had a whole different appeal if
> they'd had electron microscope photos to draw their influences from,
> rather than just flowers and butterflies seen from the naked eye. =)
And even flowers are geometric in their principle. Feed Google with
"golden rule" and "biology" and be amazed :).
> You should get some of those tattooed on *yourself*, Nina!
> I think they're YOU! =)
What, pale and spiky? :D
I've been thinking about that of course. There are myriads of different
forms, too.
I do have sort of a past-to-present tattoo in mind with ammonites,
trilobites, and a nautilus or two, which are all pretty geometric. I
can't deny a certain faible for order, only that it doesn't translate
to everyday life :D.
Nina
--
C'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.
Louis Pasteur
myrrh
>>
>> Are they really?
>> http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
>> Geometric living organisms. Like many others.
>
> they'd had electron microscope photos to draw their influences from,
In which case, you might be interested in turn-of-the-century architecture
that *was* inspired by drawings of diatoms:
http://bmeworld.com/myrrh/influence.html
Someone, help me with this handtruck.
myrrh
(strike strike.)
psychy
ElizaU4ea <eliz...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> Of course, I think acronyms catch on best if easier to pronounce . . .
>
i heared somewhere that it's only an acronym if it is spoken as a word as
in:
RAM vs ISP isp being said "I ess pee", and ram being er, ram.
'course rab(bit) would be a better example.
but maybe that was a different word
~psychy..
/me wanders of muttering "acronym, acronym?"