Is "Goddess" a sexist term? (Was Re: Ah/Oh! My Goddess)
John A. Kilpatrick
>In this day of sensitivity about political correctness, I'm wondering
>whether or not the term "Goddess" is sexist or not.
>
>After all, most occupations which have the suffix "ess" attached to it is
>deemed sexist these days. Ex: actress, waitress, stewardess etc.
>
>So, any thoughts on this?
I don't think it's sexist...I think it's simply a holdover from many of the
romance languages that DO have gender for various nouns. Like French, for
example. And, if you wanted to REALLY get rid of it, megami shows up as
angel in my dict.... :-)
--
******************************John A. Kilpatrick*******************************
*"I gotta fly like a duck.......... | Alternate lyrics for "Back to Paradise" *
* I gotta run like a wounded badger"| from Gundam 0083: StarDust Memory *
*************************jaki...@taco.engr.ucdavis.edu************************
Alan Boyd
I think something might be lost on some people if you just called it "Oh
my God!"
--
-Grosporina
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
"That sure is a biiig tuna-fish"
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
> In this day of sensitivity about political correctness, I'm wondering
> whether or not the term "Goddess" is sexist or not.
The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
take issue with. And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
> After all, most occupations which have the suffix "ess" attached to it is
> deemed sexist these days. Ex: actress, waitress, stewardess etc.
-ess (and -ette) words reinforce the idea that men are the norm and
women the exception.
In the 1600's, when women were allowed the English stage, they were
called "actors" like everybody else. A few decades later, "actress"
was coined to distinguish women who were actors. No similar word was
invented for men. Actors were men, unless they were actresses.
> So, any thoughts on this?
"Goddess" is necessary to the title, playing on the phrase "Oh My
God". This use of "Goddess" isn't a major sin.
What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
point of having no will of her own. Fortunately, Keiichi is too
wishy-washy to take advantage of her.
--
Being called a "poetess" brings out the terroristress in me.
-- Adrienne Rich
Howard J. Browning
>The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
>take issue with. And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
>goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
Sigh. Many, if not most of the primative dieties were `earth mother`
godesses. Besides, the godess is the english word for a deity with a
female personality/form. It isn`t sexist to use proper English....
>What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
>because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
>point of having no will of her own. Fortunately, Keiichi is too
>wishy-washy to take advantage of her.
Well, PC can take a jump. I think that she is 'perfect' as she
fulfills all of Keiichi's ideas about a perfect woman. And remember,
we are talking about Japan......
HOWARD
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
> Sigh. Many, if not most of the primative dieties were `earth mother`
> godesses.
That's true. Perhaps i should have said "in most western
mythologies", where agrarian earth mothers have often been
replaced by patriarchal all-fathers.
> Besides, the godess is the english word for a deity with a
> female personality/form. It isn`t sexist to use proper English....
"Wench" is proper English. But using it can be quite sexist.
>> What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
>> because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
>> point of having no will of her own.
> Well, PC can take a jump. I think that she is 'perfect' as she
> fulfills all of Keiichi's ideas about a perfect woman. And remember,
> we are talking about Japan......
I'm not attacking Belldandy fans. I just said the show is sexist.
Personally, i think Video Girl Ai is a better magical girl than
Belldandy. Tho she also lives for one boy's pleasure, she has a
personality, with her own desires and the will to get what she wants.
Ai is a person. Belldandy is a living doll.
Roger P. Ang
In article <1994Mar28....@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl! <teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>I'm not attacking Belldandy fans. I just said the show is sexist.
>Personally, i think Video Girl Ai is a better magical girl than
>Belldandy. Tho she also lives for one boy's pleasure, she has a
>personality, with her own desires and the will to get what she wants.
>Ai is a person. Belldandy is a living doll.
(A Personal Theory) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
I think an elite commando team of Kasumi-worshippers (from
Ranma) infiltrated the animation studios of said program. They then
proceeded to initiate an insidious plot to convert the world, based on
the belief that all otakus are latent Kasumi-worshippers. Fashioning
a psuedo-diety with the personality of their object of worship, they
will use her to subtly seduce the otakus of the world into
Kasumi-worshipping. Note how Belldandy has already donned an apron,
become the "goddess-about-the-house", and mastered that vacuous smile
that are trademarks of Tendou Kasumi.
Can these events be far behind (Signs of the coming of the Goddess Kasumi)?
- More plot devices will be used to alter Belldandy's appearance
slightly to bring her closer in appearance to Kasumi.
- A Tofu-clone (wearing glasses, a serious klutz around Belldandy)
will appear and become a competitor for Belldandy's attention, the
only one that Keiichi seriously is worried about.
(A Psuedo-Freundian Theory) :-) :-) :-) :-)
The popularity of Belldandy may actually be a convoluted Video
Oedipal complex. Instead of looking for figures that resemble
actually living mothers, the subject is seeking the mother figure as
defined by video programming. This is the mother figure (like Aunt
Bea and June Cleaver) who puttered about the kitchen, consoled Opie
whenever he thought he'd never become a major star, and kept Ward from
actually "clobbering" the Beaver when the kid really deserved a smack
upside the head. However, while most otakus get mushy over girls that
act like June Cleaver, they'd rather have an inflatable date than
think about someone who looked like June Cleaver. Thus, we see these
characteristics packaged in the firm, nubile, young body (oops, I'm
digressing ...) of a female typically 16-21 years old.
[*** Guy Secret Alert ***]
(The following is privileged male information. Females who read this
should know that I risk retribution from the Brotherhood of Machismo
for revealing this information.)
All ... *ALL* males latently do/will have this complex.
Though they will refuse to admit, at some point in their lives, all
males get "warm-and-fuzzy" when they see a scene like the one in KOR
where Madoka is making curry rice for Kyosuke and he starts thinking
"It's almost like we're married ...". Men/boys: when this happens,
you know you're doomed. Girls stopped being "icky" years ago, and
it's all downhill from here. Start thinking minivans and mowing
lawns.
"I've got the problems of an adult on my head and my shoulders.
I'm an adult now."
- Pursuit of Happiness
Roger P. Ang (ra...@laputa.ics.uci.edu)
Irvine? Where's Irvine? Grad student at the
In the heart of the Orange Curtain. Dept. of Information & Computer Sci.
Oh no! The poor fool. Univ. of California, Irvine. USA
daniel frankovitch
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl! <teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
ugly head.......PC. I guess referring to a female god by "Goddess" is now
a sin..:}
And I don't think that being "docile" deems the series non-PC,
remember the Japanese are probably the most sexist race on the planet but
they keep putting women in places of power. Belldandy is a goddesss, Kahm
was heir to an empire, Madoka had a wicked slap...so on.
now to kill myself for getting political....pow pow
--
==============================================================================
dfra...@nyx.cs.du.edu = If it wern't for anime I'd have no life at all
Otokokumi on IRC ============================================ :}
==============================================================================
Hitoshi Doi
| [Psuedo-psychology alert and warning for the humor-impaired]
Veny nice posting. (^_^;)
| In article <1994Mar28....@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
| Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl! <teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
| >I'm not attacking Belldandy fans. I just said the show is sexist.
What's wrong with a sexist show?
| (A Personal Theory) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
| I think an elite commando team of Kasumi-worshippers (from
| Ranma) infiltrated the animation studios of said program. They then
| proceeded to initiate an insidious plot to convert the world, based on
| the belief that all otakus are latent Kasumi-worshippers.
Of course.
I'll try to post the Tofu meets Kasumi event report later today. (^_^;;)
| Fashioning
| a psuedo-diety with the personality of their object of worship, they
| will use her to subtly seduce the otakus of the world into
| Kasumi-worshipping. Note how Belldandy has already donned an apron,
| become the "goddess-about-the-house", and mastered that vacuous smile
| that are trademarks of Tendou Kasumi.
Too bad Kasumi never sang the egg-song.
| Can these events be far behind (Signs of the coming of the Goddess Kasumi)?
|
| - More plot devices will be used to alter Belldandy's appearance
| slightly to bring her closer in appearance to Kasumi.
The "young Belldandy" is VERY cute!
--
Hitoshi Doi, Toshi Nibunnoichi d...@jrd.dec.com
half a UFO catcher doll, half a cel [from Japan: d...@jrd.dec-j.co.jp]
Tomar
Herbert Fung <herb...@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
>In this day of sensitivity about political correctness, I'm wondering
>whether or not the term "Goddess" is sexist or not.
>
>deemed sexist these days. Ex: actress, waitress, stewardess etc.
>
>
First:
You should do things that you believe are right, not because some else wrote
that is correct. Polticial Correctness is blind and people should learn to
think for themselves.
Second:
Why would Goddess not be a sexist term? In it's very nature, it refers to
a female god, which I don't think is insulting at all. Just because you
differentiate between two groups doesn't mean that you are sexist.
>
>
>One of the Legendary 19! ^_-
>
>--
>Herbert Fung herb...@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
>Edmonton Remote Systems Serving Edmonton/Northern Alberta since 1982
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
My life quest: To find and watch all Ranma 1/2 episodes I can!!!!
The only obstacle is my limited funds!
Favorite Quote: Ranma: My, life yes...My manhood is another story!
The Fool Eternal
a fashionable translator girl!)
said:
>The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
>take issue with. And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
>goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
Words have what meaning we bring to them. There are no meanings
except what is assigned to them in the isolation of ourselves.
Political correctness is nothing more than an unfortunate and
misguided surrender of the fight for the soul. Once we turn to the
effects of our failures, rather than their actualities, we are
merely fighting over moldering corpses.
Sorry, Terri. It's just that this sort of thing rankles me. Words
mean what we mean them to. AMG's faults lie in it's characterisations,
not in it's labels.
Mitch Hagmaier ...a bushel of sexually aroused cucumbers
Quest Laboratories is not quite as menacing an enemy...
H.R. Division -Curtis H. Hoffmann
Iain Sinclair
>Sorry, Terri. It's just that this sort of thing rankles me. Words
>mean what we mean them to. AMG's faults lie in it's characterisations,
>not in it's labels.
Words mean what they have evolved to mean. Do you deny the "male as
default" characteristic of most English speech? If so, on what basis?
What the hell is wrong with AMG's characterisations?
Have you bothered to read the manga?
--
Iain Sinclair axo...@socs.uts.edu.au
"Who are all you people and why are you in my computer?"
Iain Sinclair
>Belldandy. Tho she also lives for one boy's pleasure, she has a
>personality, with her own desires and the will to get what she wants.
>Ai is a person. Belldandy is a living doll.
Belldandy is merely doing her job - to perfection. She's a consummate
professional. Therefore, she is a feminist icon.
Markus Rantanen
>brow...@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Howard J. Browning) writes:
>> Sigh. Many, if not most of the primative dieties were `earth mother`
>> godesses.
>That's true. Perhaps i should have said "in most western
>mythologies", where agrarian earth mothers have often been
>replaced by patriarchal all-fathers.
True enough..
>> Besides, the godess is the english word for a deity with a
>> female personality/form. It isn`t sexist to use proper English....
>"Wench" is proper English. But using it can be quite sexist.
Depends how, where and in what context it's used in.
It's sexist only if it's meant to be...
>>> What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
>>> because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
>>> point of having no will of her own.
>> Well, PC can take a jump. I think that she is 'perfect' as she
>> fulfills all of Keiichi's ideas about a perfect woman. And remember,
>> we are talking about Japan.....
>I'm not attacking Belldandy fans. I just said the show is sexist.
I don't agree with this. I do not see AMG as 'Sexist'.
Belldandy IS a *goddess* who grants Keiichi one wish: that she will
stay with him *forever*.
>Personally, i think Video Girl Ai is a better magical girl than
>Belldandy. Tho she also lives for one boy's pleasure, she has a
>personality, with her own desires and the will to get what she wants.
>Ai is a person. Belldandy is a living doll.
No, not a doll, devoted etc. yes, but she is defenitely a person
with her own desires and etc. And she is DIFFERENT; it'd be boring
if she was like everybody else.
Markus Rantanen
E. Kontei
>
> The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
> take issue with.
Like it or not, "God" in Judeo-Christian mythology *is* male. Why
do you think we get all these references to "Him" and "His"?
> And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
> goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
That's the *mythology* which is sexist, not the word itself!
The current use of the word "goddess" by itself does not have any
such implications, and that *was* the original question asked.
For a counter-example, I submit to you the various modern-day Earth
Mother cults.
I argued this issue with Trish, and I'll argue it with you. I *strongly*
dislike the idea of changing the language to suit some political agenda,
no matter how noble the intent. It reeks of NewSpeak...
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
"Conty is overrated" -- Various people
co...@cbnewsl.att.com jes...@ihlpm.att.com
Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Briareos
> In this day of sensitivity about political correctness, I'm wondering
> whether or not the term "Goddess" is sexist or not.
>
> After all, most occupations which have the suffix "ess" attached to it is
> deemed sexist these days. Ex: actress, waitress, stewardess etc.
>
> So, any thoughts on this?
goddess is not a sexist term. If anything god is sexist term, because it is
so in grained in society. But anyway she is a goddess so...
+**********************************************+
* ukkyo rules! * guile%vik...@bts.com *
+**********************************************+
S. Lee
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl! <teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>> What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
>>> because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
>>> point of having no will of her own.
>
>> Well, PC can take a jump. I think that she is 'perfect' as she
>> fulfills all of Keiichi's ideas about a perfect woman. And remember,
>> we are talking about Japan......
>
Read the manga.
BTW, if K1 is the kind of person who take advantage of others,
Belldandy would not come to him in the first place...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah! Megami-sama _||___ _||___ _||___ _||_ ||_ __||__ _||___
_ ! _ ||__ ||__ || : / :|| : || _||__
`^ ^' /||, \ /||, \ ===. || : ,||.+||-+ __|| _||__ ===.
Stephen Lee : ||, : ||, ) : \' || :||_: : : || : :
sl...@cornell.edu \|/ / \|/ / --' / \ || || `---- \|' ' --'
"That person... that person... is *MY* Keiichi!!" - Belldandy, manga #8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
u894...@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au
edu (daniel frankovitch) writes:
> In article <1994Mar28....@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
> Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
<teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>Herbert Fung writes:
>>> In this day of sensitivity about political correctness, I'm wondering
>>> whether or not the term "Goddess" is sexist or not.
Some people will say that just about anything is sexist. It is a matter of
opinion.
>>The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
>>take issue with. And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
>>goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
>>
>>> After all, most occupations which have the suffix "ess" attached to it is
>>> deemed sexist these days. Ex: actress, waitress, stewardess etc.
>>-ess (and -ette) words reinforce the idea that men are the norm and
>>women the exception.
I don't agree. A waitress is just as common as a waiter, and I don't think
that people assume that the waitress is any less competant. It is
unfortunate that we are told tobelieve that any word that merely
distinguishes between sexes is bad, or that it shows women to be inferior.
>>In the 1600's, when women were allowed the English stage, they were
>>called "actors" like everybody else. A few decades later, "actress"
>>was coined to distinguish women who were actors.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Is that so bad?
>>No similar word was invented for men. Actors were men, unless they
were actresses.
>>> So, any thoughts on this?
>>
>>"Goddess" is necessary to the title, playing on the phrase "Oh My
>>God". This use of "Goddess" isn't a major sin.
>>
>>What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
>>because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
>>point of having no will of her own. Fortunately, Keiichi is too
>>wishy-washy to take advantage of her.
Perhaps if anyone is offended by the series they should try BGC or
Dirty Pair for some women with attitude. Just try to ignore the "cute"
costumes at times.
> Well here it creeps....slowly and quietly, until it raises its
> ugly head.......PC. I guess referring to a female god by "Goddess" is now
> a sin..:}
> And I don't think that being "docile" deems the series non-PC,
> remember the Japanese are probably the most sexist race on the planet but
> they keep putting women in places of power. Belldandy is a goddesss, Kahm
> was heir to an empire, Madoka had a wicked slap...so on.
What about Nausica, surely a reasonable role model, and Lum's electric
shock is enough to mend most men of thier evil ways I'm sure (especially
one in particular ).
> now to kill myself for getting political....pow pow
Agreed :)........Click....BANG!!
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \\\/// / / / / / / /
S c o t t P f a f f .... u894...@csdvax.csd.unsw.oz.au
\ /
"He talks too much" .. Confucius' brother.
\/
michael hopkins
You can view goddess as an sexist term by the fact that my culture and
religion (american and christian) view God as an entity with an male
personality, and since he's #1 in my book (the Bible) goddess can be
viewed as an lower-class entity. But remember in christianity there is
only one God and that is God there is no Goddess (I think) in christian
religions.
Now if you put Goddess in terms aslower gods and goddesses (as in Greek
Mythology) I do belive that they are on equal terms
(BTY I don't have much Knowledge on Greek Mythology so I could be wrong).
Gosh I should go to bed now and say my prayers. sheeeh!!
*******************************************************
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* 1 2 3 4 UNITED STATES CYBER-CORE!!!! *
* MICHAEL HOPKINS BITNET <CWPSCMH@PACEVM> *
* INTERNET <CYBE...@PHANTOM.COM *
*********************************************************
The Fool Eternal
>You can view goddess as an sexist term by the fact that my culture and
>religion (american and christian) view God as an entity with an male
>personality, and since he's #1 in my book (the Bible) goddess can be
>viewed as an lower-class entity. But remember in christianity there is
>only one God and that is God there is no Goddess (I think) in christian
>religions.
Actually, there's a seminary movement right now, to de-polarize the
gender references to the deity. Various sects have feminist sections that
have taken to randomly scrambling the personal pronouns used to describe
god, he, she or it. The point is, that only the more reactionary
and biased theologians insist that the deity has a gender. The agreed
position is that the creator is sexless, as he has no need for sexual
reproduction, and also the fact that Adam was said to be made in god's
image before eve was split off- clear room for arguing that Adam was
androgenous before that event, therefore, God does not have gender,
QED.
Mitch Hagmaier Making the World
Quest Laboratories a Better Place
H.R. Division to Dominate
O T A K O N ' 9 4
Convention of Otaku Generation
July 29th - 31st, Days Inn Penn State
State College, PA
Richard Meesters
>What makes this series non-PC is that Belldandy is the perfect girl
>because she's pretty, docile, subservient, and utterly devoted to the
>point of having no will of her own. Fortunately, Keiichi is too
>wishy-washy to take advantage of her.
>
stereotypes of class, gender, social standing, etc. From what I've seen (the
first 3 episodes - fan subbed), there's nothing in AMS that's particularly
non-PC. No stereotype is particularly attacked. Do you think that there are
no women who are pretty, docile, subservient and devoted in the world? And
I'd debate the point of her not having any will of her own anyway.
>--
>Being called a "poetess" brings out the terroristress in me.
> -- Adrienne Rich
ROFL .... I like it.
Regards,
--
Richard Meesters | THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR....
Systems Software Specialist | ...someone else.
AT&T Global Information Solutions |
EMAIL: richard....@canada.ncr.com CSERVE: 71055,2771
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
>> Ai is a person. Belldandy is a living doll.
> Read the manga.
Watch the anime. Belldandy in the manga is another story, but
in the anime she's another Tendo Kasumi.
The Fool Eternal
> `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean
>so many different things.'
>
> `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -
>- that's all.'
Wise man, Carroll.
>
>>Political correctness is nothing more than an unfortunate and
>>misguided surrender of the fight for the soul. Once we turn to the
>>effects of our failures, rather than their actualities, we are
>>merely fighting over moldering corpses.
>
>I'm afraid that whatever meaning you assign to these words has
>eluded me.
What I mean is, when we start disecting *words* to find our faults
rather than ourselves, we've mistaken the finger for the moon. "Person
of color" means the same thing as "Nigger" (sorry folks) in the mouths of
bigots, and no matter where you shift the battlefield, the people will remain
the same. Did PC make the LA riots any less vicious, or the King trial any
less of a tragedy? If David Duke uses politically correct phrases, and
weasel words stolen from less vile, more sane politicians, is he any less
a menace and a monster?
>> Sorry, Terri. It's just that this sort of thing rankles me. Words
>> mean what we mean them to.
>
>A word's meaning should exceed its definition, or what's a meta phor?
A metaphor is a pointer, just as a word is a pointer. Definition is which
way they point. They mean only which way they're aimed. Like weapons, it
is the man you must fight, not the powder.
>Have you never said anything you didn't mean to say? Never rephrased
>yourself so your audience won't infer the wrong thing? Words have
>many meanings, and more connotations. Take care that your words mean
>what you mean them to.
Exactly. Or redefine your words by your context, and your usage. Language
is our slave, not our master.
>> AMG's faults lie in it's characterisations, not in it's labels.
>
>In the message you followed up, I wrote that the title of AMG isn't
>what makes it sexist, but the character of Belldandy. So you agree?
Yes. However, from your original post:
>The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
>take offence with. And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
>goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
So, by this statement, is the word sexist, or is the context. The point
is confused. It doesn't help it that your supporting evidence,
>-ess (and -ette) words reinforce the idea that men are the norm, and
>women the exception.
Supports the "word is sexist" position. Furthermore, this bit of radicalism:
>Being called a "poetess" brings out the terroristress in me.
> -Adrienne Rich.
Doesn't help clarify your point. And really, the only rational response to
Milady Rich's quote is, "Would you rather that they snigger, 'the poet Adrienne
Rich', or that they respectfully describe you 'the poetess Adrienne Rich'".
Denying the biased the use of trigger words will only transform neutral terms
into new trigger words, as "colored", "negro", and "black" were in turn.
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
> Well here it creeps....slowly and quietly, until it raises its
> ugly head.......PC. I guess referring to a female god by "Goddess" is now
> a sin..:}
No, it's not a sin.
> And I don't think that being "docile" deems the series non-PC,
> remember the Japanese are probably the most sexist race on the planet but
> they keep putting women in places of power.
The Japanese still openly discriminate against women in business,
though there has been some progress. Women traditionally run the
household, while men run the country.
The Japanese aren't the most sexist culture on earth. (It's unfair to
condemn the Japanese as a race, particularly when many members of that
race have never even been to Japan.) There are countries where women
are denied human rights, where husbands have a right to beat their
wives but wives can be punished severely for raising a hand to their
husbands, and where women have been arrested for having the temerity
to drive a car.
> Belldandy is a goddesss, Kahm was heir to an empire, Madoka had a wicked
> slap...so on.
Animated women in power don't count. ^_)
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
fool>> Political correctness is nothing more than an unfortunate and
fool>> misguided surrender of the fight for the soul. Once we turn to the
fool>> effects of our failures, rather than their actualities, we are
fool>> merely fighting over moldering corpses.
fool> What I mean is, when we start disecting *words* to find our faults
fool> rather than ourselves, we've mistaken the finger for the moon.
That's a very good point.
fool> "Person of color" means the same thing as "Nigger" (sorry folks) in the
fool> mouths of bigots, and no matter where you shift the battlefield, the
fool> people will remain the same. Did PC make the LA riots any less vicious,
fool> or the King trial any less of a tragedy? If David Duke uses politically
fool> correct phrases, and weasel words stolen from less vile, more sane
fool> politicians, is he any less a menace and a monster?
Rioters and racists will still be rioters and racists.
But this isn't the kind of prejudice i was talking about.
teri> A word's meaning should exceed its definition, or what's a meta phor?
fool> A metaphor is a pointer, just as a word is a pointer. Definition is which
fool> way they point. They mean only which way they're aimed. Like weapons, it
fool> is the man you must fight, not the powder.
You should have said "the person you must fight". ^_) I don't think
you intended to be sexist, but it's insidious. Because it's the way
we speak, it becomes part of the way we think.
We can't fight the reality of sexism, racism, and prejudice on a
battlefield of language. At least, not the kind rooted in hatred and
hysteria. But we can reform the inherent bias in our language by
using words more fairly.
Using occupation words like "waiter" for both sexes is not a difficult
habit to get into. In time, "waiter" will probably be as genderless
as "writer".
teri> Words have many meanings, and more connotations. Take care that your
teri> words mean what you mean them to.
fool> Exactly. Or redefine your words by your context, and your usage. Language
fool> is our slave, not our master.
Yes and no. Our thoughts can shape language, but language can also
shape our thoughts. Language is a virus.
teri>> The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
teri>> take offence with. And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
western
teri>> goddesses are in most mythologies, of course it's sexist.
^
fool> is the word sexist, or is the context. The point is confused.
teri> -ess (and -ette) words reinforce the idea that men are the norm, and
teri> women the exception.
fool> Supports the "word is sexist" position.
"Goddess" is a mildly sexist word. The sexism is indirect, because
it rests in the default-male assumption of "god". If we had a male
word and a female word, like "goddeur and goddess", then "god" would
be gender-free and it wouldn't be a problem. Since we don't, it's
fairer to use "god" to refer to male and female gods alike.
teri> Being called a "poetess" brings out the terroristress in me.
teri> -Adrienne Rich.
fool> doesn't help clarify your point.
I put the quote in the .signature block as a peripherally-related
witticism.
fool> And really, the only rational response to Milady Rich's quote is,
fool> "Would you rather that they snigger, 'the poet Adrienne Rich', or
fool> that they respectfully describe you 'the poetess Adrienne Rich'".
I think Ms. Rich made her preference clear.
It may be that the word "poetess" was coined to emphasize the femaleness
of the poet, to admire a woman being a poet as a special achievement.
But when "poetess" becomes common currency and "poet" means "male poem
writer", then sexism has crept in.
fool> Denying the biased the use of trigger words will only transform neutral
fool> terms into new trigger words, as "colored", "negro", and "black" were
fool> in turn.
Trigger words are another issue, which i'd rather not discuss in this
newsgroup.
Ken Arromdee
Iain Sinclair <axo...@socs.uts.edu.au> wrote:
> >Personally, i think Video Girl Ai is a better magical girl than
> >Belldandy. Tho she also lives for one boy's pleasure, she has a
> >personality, with her own desires and the will to get what she wants.
> >Ai is a person. Belldandy is a living doll.
>Belldandy is merely doing her job - to perfection. She's a consummate
>professional. Therefore, she is a feminist icon.
I don't think the story makes sense when interpreted that way. It's a boy
meets girl story, and both the boy and girl are pretty wimpy. That's why
Belldandy's that way, not because she's a stereotype. And _certainly_ not
because she's just faking it.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"You, a Decider?" --Romana "I decided not to." --The Doctor
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
teri> The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
teri> take issue with.
conty> Like it or not, "God" in Judeo-Christian mythology *is* male. Why
conty> do you think we get all these references to "Him" and "His"?
The word for "God" in Greek and Hebrew is gender-neutral. God's
supposed maleness in English versions of the Bible is not a strictly
accurate translation. Many people view God as not having a specific
gender. Whether it is meaningful to say God is either male or female
is debatable.
teri> And when "goddess" implies a "lesser god", which
teri> goddesses are in most [western] mythologies, of course it's sexist.
conty> That's the *mythology* which is sexist, not the word itself!
conty> The current use of the word "goddess" by itself does not have any
conty> such implications, and that *was* the original question asked.
There are some instances where "goddess" does imply that, but that's
secondary.
conty> For a counter-example, I submit to you the various modern-day Earth
conty> Mother cults.
I should have said "most western mythologies", this was discussed
elsewhere in this thread. Western mythologies started out as Earth
Mother cults, too, until they were supplanted by all-father mythos.
conty> I argued this issue with Trish, and I'll argue it with you. I
conty> *strongly* dislike the idea of changing the language to suit some
conty> political agenda, no matter how noble the intent. It reeks of
conty> NewSpeak...
Language evolves and changes with culture. Social and political
changes have always shaped language. Women have only gained the
rights of man relatively recently, and the English language is still
catching up. The language is changing to reflect the broadening of
our perspective from "mankind" to "humanity". It's hardly an
Orwellian purging of concepts like "freedom" from the language; it's
a mirror of the expasion of freedom to include all people regardless
of gender, race, or sexual preference.
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
> So what's your point....It seems to me that all of the charachters in AMS are
> stereotypes of class, gender, social standing, etc. From what I've seen (the
> first 3 episodes - fan subbed), there's nothing in AMS that's particularly
> non-PC.
All in all, AMS is pretty inoffensive.
> No stereotype is particularly attacked.
If it broke stereotypes, then that would be good, right?
> Do you think that there are no women who are pretty, docile, subservient
> and devoted in the world?
I know there are. Unfortunately, since my mother was one of them, she
put up with a lot of abuse.
> And I'd debate the point of her not having any will of her own anyway.
Belldandy does get motivated by major crises like Keiichi having a
fever, Keiichi almost drowning, and Keiichi being under the spell of a
love potion.
Ken Arromdee
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl! <teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Belldandy does get motivated by major crises like Keiichi having a
>fever, Keiichi almost drowning, and Keiichi being under the spell of a
>love potion.
Is Keiichi any better? That is, is it a show with a stereotypical weak woman,
or a show with wishy-washy _people_ of both sexes?
Amir Milo
Though I haven't actually seen AMG! (ack... my remaining vcr broke down
Saturday :/) yet... IMO Ai would be the better choice in the long run.
After all, which situation would encourage more personal growth? The
show portrays a sexist role (the subservient woman as an ideal); but that
doesn't say the show is or isn't worth watching. (That judgement I'll
reserve until after I've seen it.) One can appreciate a work without
having to accept everything it implies carte blanc.
Joseph L Petrow
In article <1994Apr3.2...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>, teri...@venice.mps.ohio-state.edu (Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!) writes:
> co...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei) writes:
> teri> The use of "Goddess" implies that "God" is male, which many would
> teri> take issue with.
>
> conty> Like it or not, "God" in Judeo-Christian mythology *is* male. Why
> conty> do you think we get all these references to "Him" and "His"?
>
> The word for "God" in Greek and Hebrew is gender-neutral. God's
> supposed maleness in English versions of the Bible is not a strictly
> accurate translation. Many people view God as not having a specific
> gender. Whether it is meaningful to say God is either male or female
> is debatable.
I'm not the world's foremost authority on the Bible, but I do remember
that story in Genesis in which man was created in God's image, and that
woman was created from man (hence "woman" is a superset of "man"). This
may or may not have been the intent of the original authors, but most
denominations of the Judeo-Christian nonetheless hold this to be so.
--
\ " | ____ /\ o | ____ Joseph Petrow
\ / _ _|___ | / \ | | | _____ joe...@engin.umich.edu
/ | | / / . \ |\ | |
/ O_ \___ / \ | |____| Anime ga suki nan desu yo!
Starbuck
> Watch the anime. Belldandy in the manga is another story, but
> in the anime she's another Tendo Kasumi.
In more ways than one!!!
Steve
---
Stephen Pearl (Starbuck) Work: (908)932-3465 Home: (908)566-6842
Internet: pe...@remus.rutgers.edu FidoNet: I need a local node!
US MAIL: 359 Lloyd Rd, Aberdeen, NJ 07747-1826 GEnie: S.Pearl6
QUOTES: "What is Starbuck-ing?" -Adultress 19
"Works for me!" -Rick Hunter (The Cop, not the Robotech Defender)
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
> Is Keiichi any better? That is, is it a show with a stereotypical weak
> woman, or a show with wishy-washy _people_ of both sexes?
You're right, Keiichi is no better. Maybe that makes them a perfect match.
Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!
> Is Keiichi any better? That is, is it a show with a stereotypical weak
> woman, or a show with wishy-washy _people_ of both sexes?
You're right, Keiichi is no better.
Does this make them a perfect match or a disastrous one? ^_)
Julian Fong
Ideally, a perfect couple would be made of two people whose
personalities fill in each other's gaps perfectly. I don't really think
this is the case with Keiichi and Belldandy. What did he see in her to
begin with? He wished someone like her would stay with him forever simply
on the basis of her not thinking that his being short should stand in the
way of his getting a girlfriend. And aside from the restrictions of the
wish, what does she see in him? (I hope the last two parts of the OAV
series make an effort toward answering this question.)
--
"The light works; the gravity works. Anything else _____
we have to take our chances with." -- Dirk Gently |_____|_____
_____| |
Julian Fong: fon...@sunset.bph.jhu.edu
Ken Arromdee
Julian Fong <fon...@sunset.uucp> wrote:
>>> Is Keiichi any better? That is, is it a show with a stereotypical weak
>>> woman, or a show with wishy-washy _people_ of both sexes?
>>You're right, Keiichi is no better.
>>Does this make them a perfect match or a disastrous one? ^_)
> Ideally, a perfect couple would be made of two people whose
>personalities fill in each other's gaps perfectly. I don't really think
>this is the case with Keiichi and Belldandy. What did he see in her to
>begin with? He wished someone like her would stay with him forever simply
>on the basis of her not thinking that his being short should stand in the
>way of his getting a girlfriend.
He wished someone like her would stay with him forever on the basis of not
believing she was anything more than a prankster and that this was a setup by
his roommates, as far as I can tell.
Wishing for her to stay with him is is an excuse for "boy meets girl". Of
course he didn't see anything in her at the beginning; they hadn't really
come to know each other yet, they just met....
Hitoshi Doi
| In article <1994Apr9.0...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> teri...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Lovely and cute Miss THERESA MARTIN is a fashionable translator girl!) writes:
| >Ken Arromdee writes:
| >> Is Keiichi any better? That is, is it a show with a stereotypical weak
| >> woman, or a show with wishy-washy _people_ of both sexes?
| >
| >You're right, Keiichi is no better.
| >
| >Does this make them a perfect match or a disastrous one? ^_)
|
| Ideally, a perfect couple would be made of two people whose
| personalities fill in each other's gaps perfectly. I don't really think
| this is the case with Keiichi and Belldandy. What did he see in her to
| begin with? He wished someone like her would stay with him forever simply
| on the basis of her not thinking that his being short should stand in the
| way of his getting a girlfriend. And aside from the restrictions of the
| wish, what does she see in him? (I hope the last two parts of the OAV
| series make an effort toward answering this question.)
The current anime magazines give away some of the story of the final
episode.. I want to see it!!!
There's a VERY CUTE picture of Bell-chan in the May Newtype.
slight spoiler..
That wasn't the first time Belldandy and Keiichi met..
Think of the song "Boku to Ikiru Koto ga Kimi no Shiawase".
--
Hitoshi Doi, Toshi Nibunnoichi d...@jrd.dec.com
half a UFO catcher doll, half a cel [from Japan: d...@jrd.dec-j.co.jp]
Tony Chen
:
: Ideally, a perfect couple would be made of two people whose
~~~~~~~
: personalities fill in each other's gaps perfectly. I don't really think
That's ideally. However, in this world I don't think a couple has to do
that. I've seen couples that very much alike. I've seen couples that's
like fire and water. I've seen couples that were not either (not similar
to each other yet not opposite each other).
"ANIME-MANGA FOREVER!"
Tony.
Julian Fong
Ah, -- I mean, oh -- but we're not talking about the real world
here: we're talking about the plot of AMS. The point is that I don't
believe Keiichi and Belldandy make a perfect couple because Keiichi is never
sure what he wants from Belldandy, or what he's willing to do for her, and
Belldandy is completely beyond caring about this issue. What do they need
from each other, and what are they willing to give that can make the other
happy? Shouldn't Keiichi want something more from Belldandy besides the
devotion she's always willing to give him? And what, really, does she want
from him aside from his willingness to keep her around? Why should their
situation be so devoid of complexity?
Or is it?
Here's hoping the series works its flaws out by the time it finishes.
Tony Chen
: In article <2obkun$3...@pace1.cts> toc...@mtu.edu (Tony Chen) writes:
: >Julian Fong (fon...@sunset.uucp) wrote:
: >:
: >: Ideally, a perfect couple would be made of two people whose
: > ~~~~~~~
: >: personalities fill in each other's gaps perfectly. I don't really think
: >
: >That's ideally. However, in this world I don't think a couple has to do
: >that. I've seen couples that very much alike. I've seen couples that's
: >like fire and water. I've seen couples that were not either (not similar
: >to each other yet not opposite each other).
:
: Ah, -- I mean, oh -- but we're not talking about the real world
: here: we're talking about the plot of AMS. The point is that I don't
Love in AMS is simply a reflection of the many possibilities of love in
this world. Same goes for every other anime.
: believe Keiichi and Belldandy make a perfect couple because Keiichi is never
: sure what he wants from Belldandy, or what he's willing to do for her, and
: Belldandy is completely beyond caring about this issue. What do they need
: from each other, and what are they willing to give that can make the other
: happy? Shouldn't Keiichi want something more from Belldandy besides the
: devotion she's always willing to give him? And what, really, does she want
: from him aside from his willingness to keep her around? Why should their
: situation be so devoid of complexity?
:
Don't ask me, I haven't watched A!MS anyway.
"ANIME-MANGA FOREVER!"
Tony.
Roger P. Ang
>>Ken Arromdee writes:
>>> Is Keiichi any better? That is, is it a show with a stereotypical weak
>>> woman, or a show with wishy-washy _people_ of both sexes?
>>You're right, Keiichi is no better.
>>Does this make them a perfect match or a disastrous one? ^_)
> Ideally, a perfect couple would be made of two people whose
>personalities fill in each other's gaps perfectly. I don't really think
>this is the case with Keiichi and Belldandy.
Or as Dear Abby once put it:
"The rocks in his head fits the holes in holes in her's."
I think that intrepretation may be apropo here.
Roger P. Ang (ra...@laputa.ics.uci.edu)
"Hey, Dyna-Pink. Nice tattoo." Grad student at the
Mr. Wonderful - DynaMan Dept. of Info. & Comp. Sci.
Univ. of California, Irvine. USA