Angel Cop: JEW BASHING???
pickle
here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I have
not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
Anyone have a clue let me know.
thanks Rodney
Andrew John Brewer
: Some time ago I was asking about Angel Cop and quite a few people on irc and
The American version was heavily edited to remove the blatantly
anti-Semetic plot of its Japanese predecessor.
(Spoilers!)
Here's some of the "lost" pieces of Angel Cop dialogue that you won't
find in the dubbed version:
(From Angel Cop 3)
Kuwata: According to it, within the past five years, two-
thirds of Touwa Electricity's stock has been bought
by American Jewish capitalists.
Kuwata: In short, the Jewish capitalists are trying to make
Hokkaido a nuclear waste dump by buying Hokkaido in
the name of Touwa Electricity.
Taki: So, it's Jews...
----
(From Angel Cop 6)
Taki: When God's three keys to a nation's survival --
information, transportation, and energy -- are
placed in the hands of others, the nation becomes the
equviliant of a castle whose moats are filled in.
Taki: The Jews took over America first, now they already
control Japan's power industry. Even now, 80% of Japan's power
comes from nuclear energy.
Taki: If a terrorist rigs the right accident, Japan could be
contaminated by fallout for 20,000 years, rendering
the country effectively useless.
Taki: Except for one use, not as Carrier Japan, the
insurmountable nuclear aircraft carrier...
Taki: ...of America's 7th Fleet, but as Asia's, no, the
world's nuclear waste dump.
...
Lucifier: Listen carefully.
Lucifier: I came here to preserve this nation's future
instead of trying to safeguard the present as
you're trying desperately to do.
Lucifier: This is the only way I can help save what remains of
my land, the United States, a nation now at the mercy
of the Jews.
Lucifier: But I can't do that unless I first save this one
from them before it's too late.
Lucifier: That includes first destroying a government that
has already decided to sell Japan to them!
Lucifier: I won't let that happen! Never!
Enrique Conty
>Some time ago I was asking about Angel Cop and quite a few people on irc and
>here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I have
>not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
In the *original* episode 3, the villains behind The Evil Plot were...
Jewish American Industrialists.
For the US release, this was changed to be something else.
I don't know what, since I've yet to see it (no LD release).
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
NuVista+ Mac genlock/video capture board for sale. | Wargame stuff for sale.
Read AMPlus, the Anime and Manga webzine - http://www.jurai.net/amplus/
Valentine's Day, like Ed Mc Mahon, is something that happens to other people.
Antaeus Feldspar
Andrew John Brewer <ajbr...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>pickle (rr1...@nyssa.swt.edu) wrote:
>: Some time ago I was asking about Angel Cop and quite a few people on irc and
>: here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I have
>: not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
>: thanks Rodney
>
>The American version was heavily edited to remove the blatantly
>anti-Semetic plot of its Japanese predecessor.
>
>(Spoilers!)
>
>Here's some of the "lost" pieces of Angel Cop dialogue that you won't
>find in the dubbed version:
[pretty vicious stuff deleted]
Jaysus! And I thought the emphasis on race in the original
"Castle of Cagliostro" was a bit much...
-jc
TReed10
the Japanese culture in their anime, who want exactly what was in the
Japanese version. They claim that with enough liner notes (probably a
half-inch-thick paperback book glued to each tape) they can explain away
any cultural peculiarities that Americans wouldn't understand.
If they put this original dialog into the American tapes, how long before
there was a serious move to ban anime? ALL anime?
Mind you, I'm not faulting the Japanese people at large for such
intolerant ideas expressed in entertainment - Americans are also
intolerant of a lot of things. But it just goes to show that
"authenticity" and "being true to the source" can be overrated.
---------------------------------------------------
Thomas E. Reed:AOL [TReed10], CompuServe[72337,234]
Gaming info and fun at the SunQuest Web Site...
http://www.sundial.net/~sunquest
Ken Arromdee
>So much for the purists who want absolutely authentic representation of
>the Japanese culture in their anime, who want exactly what was in the
>Japanese version. They claim that with enough liner notes (probably a
>half-inch-thick paperback book glued to each tape) they can explain away
>any cultural peculiarities that Americans wouldn't understand.
>If they put this original dialog into the American tapes, how long before
>there was a serious move to ban anime? ALL anime?
Actually, when a dub Angel Cop was announced, there _were_ people on here who
said that because it can't be accurately released, it shouldn't be released at
all (and that money spent on it eventually makes its way to the creators and
thus supports anti-semitism even if the dialog was changed in the dub.)
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"An alien invader has entered our galaxy! It has now entered our universe,
clearing Saturn... radial velocity KMS minus 8. It is now orbiting directly
for Earth." --Bad American Dubbing #2 (quoting ???)
Jonathan M. Obien
In article <4fgkuc$8...@newdelph.cig.mot.com> co...@rtsg.mot.com wrote:
>In article <1996Feb...@nyssa.swt.edu> rr1...@nyssa.swt.edu (pickle) writes:
>>
>>here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I have
>>not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
>
>
> Jewish American Industrialists.
>
>For the US release, this was changed to be something else.
>I don't know what, since I've yet to see it (no LD release).
I got Vol.4 as a gift this past Christmas (she complains that it's hard to
find an anime gift for somebody who's got almost everything
anime-related; her words, not mine! ^_^). In it, Lucifer (leader of the
Hunters) referred to those elements as "communist terrorists".
Yeah, right. PC blows!
*************************************************************************
___________ * * ____________
/____ ___/ * Jonathan M. Obien * |____ ____|
____| |____ * jmo...@hal.physics.wayne.edu * | |
/____ ___/ * Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu * ____| |____
/ . \ * * |____ ____|
/ / \ \ . * "Beneath my skin, there lies * | |
__/ / \ \_/! * my savage heart, and it is * ____| |____
/___/ \__/ * where I draw my power." * |____________|
* - Ushio to Tora *
*************************************************************************
Ryan Mathews
writes:
>In the *original* episode 3, the villains behind The Evil Plot were...
>
> Jewish American Industrialists.
>
>For the US release, this was changed to be something else.
>I don't know what, since I've yet to see it (no LD release).
I take it that means you're going to buy if it comes out on LD? I have
no plans to. Edited or not, your purchase of this video supports the
racist bastards who produced this crap. The fact that the anti-
semitism was edited out doesn't keep the anti-semites from getting
their royalty money.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com "I like you! You wanna be a
SnailMail: 401 Mortimer Drive #410 guinea pig for my experiments?"
Bedford OH, 44146 -- Washuu-chan
Andrew John Brewer
: no plans to. Edited or not, your purchase of this video supports the
: racist bastards who produced this crap. The fact that the anti-
: semitism was edited out doesn't keep the anti-semites from getting
: their royalty money.
: --
If I remember right, the studio that originally put Angel Cop out went
under for some time; hence the delay between the release of episode 3
and episode four -- two years.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Douglas Leo Eckhart
: Some time ago I was asking about Angel Cop and quite a few people on irc and
: here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I have
: not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
Yes.
D. Eckhart // dlec...@eos.ncsu.edu - Aspiring Ronin
http://www4.csc.ncsu.edu/~redwolf (Na-chan, keeper of the Meiko shrine)
Enrique Conty
>
>So much for the purists who want absolutely authentic representation of
>the Japanese culture in their anime, who want exactly what was in the
>Japanese version.
Since this is a follow-up to the my article, I can only infer you're
referring to me.
<deep breath>
WHAT IN *BLAZES* are you talking about????
I thought I had made my point abundantly clear. I'm strongly opposed to
changing things *without good reason*. But sometimes, it can't be helped.
Sexton Furnival
>Mind you, I'm not faulting the Japanese people at large for such
>intolerant ideas expressed in entertainment - Americans are also
>intolerant of a lot of things. But it just goes to show that
>"authenticity" and "being true to the source" can be overrated.
this it's probably crap anyway, which i'm sure angel cop is, even though i've
only ever glanced at the front cover of it in the shops. i mean, it's called
"angel cop" for christ's sake. what did you expect? if something's good it's
good and smart to be true to it. if something's crap it's good to toss it, not
cover up the crapness with a nice shiny dub.
Ming Yau So
Mathews ) wrote:
>In <4fgkuc$8...@newdelph.cig.mot.com> co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty)
>writes:
>>
>>In the *original* episode 3, the villains behind The Evil Plot were...
>>
>> Jewish American Industrialists.
>>
>>For the US release, this was changed to be something else.
>>I don't know what, since I've yet to see it (no LD release).
>
>I take it that means you're going to buy if it comes out on LD? I have
>no plans to. Edited or not, your purchase of this video supports the
>racist bastards who produced this crap. The fact that the anti-
>semitism was edited out doesn't keep the anti-semites from getting
>their royalty money.
And what's even worse is Manga tried to hide this fact from their dub
releases by replacibg the original dialogue.
--
==============================================================================
Ming Yau So Internet: min...@netcom.com
AOL: Ming So
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Andrew John Brewer
: i think you're looking at this the wrong way. if something's got content like
: this it's probably crap anyway, which i'm sure angel cop is, even though i've
: only ever glanced at the front cover of it in the shops. i mean, it's called
: "angel cop" for christ's sake. what did you expect? if something's good it's
: good and smart to be true to it. if something's crap it's good to toss it, not
: cover up the crapness with a nice shiny dub.
Actually, it's a pretty good flick. The animation is slick (and much
better than most of the crap out there); and the dialogue of the Japanese
version flows well and doesn't strike me as being stilted.
What's wrong, however, is the overall premise of the show. It's too bad
Studio 808 ruined such a good film noir with an anti-Semetic bent.
Enrique Conty
>
>>For the US release, this was changed to be something else.
>>I don't know what, since I've yet to see it (no LD release).
>
>I take it that means you're going to buy if it comes out on LD?
Allow me to explain:
I'll buy any anime LD released in the US, as long as it contains the
Japanese soundtrack in some form. Regardless of content or quality.
A number of people would point to this as a structural failure in my
moral makeup. So be it.
TReed10
you directly; excuse me if you took it that way.
I was pointing out that there are things that simply cannot be explained
in context, and therefore should be changed. This assumption of
"International Jewish Conspirators" (which, by the way, was one of auto
manufacturer Henry Ford's personal manias) is so far beyond the pale that
it should be eliminated.
In the same way, the old American sitcom "McHale's Navy" was very
unpopular when its first few seasons were shown - the ones showing the
crew fighting against the Japanese, and referring to them as "Nips." The
only shows that worked in Japan were the later "Voltafiore" episodes set
in Italy, where they fought against Germans.
My point is, anyone claiming that anime should be PURE (as if anything
is!) have to take the bad with the good, even those things that the
original creators didn't necessarily see as being evil.
so...@singe.com (Sexton Furnival): I don't know if "Angel Cop" is "crap" or
not. And especially in genre entertainment, the definition of "crap" is
personal and highly variable.
Dwayne Gregory
Re: Angel Cop and Jews
> I take it that means you're going to buy if it comes out on LD? I have
> no plans to. Edited or not, your purchase of this video supports the
> racist bastards who produced this crap. The fact that the anti-
> semitism was edited out doesn't keep the anti-semites from getting
> their royalty money.
I've heard it said that the Japanese are the most racist people on the
face of the earth. That is, of course, a generality, and generalities
are never 100 percent correct about everyone, but I've seen nothing to
dispute the statement. On a recent trip to Tokyo, I was ready to leave
after 7 days. You were not made to feel comfortable there and it occurred
to me that this must be how some blacks in America must feel, with no one
willing to sit beside them on public transits.
Anime in general is laced with racism, often subtle racism where bad guys
have foreign names, blacks usually are put in a bad light, etc. Many times
it isn't even noticable unless you really understand the film or you are
sensitive to a particular form of racism. If you don't buy anime that could
be considered by some sensitive person as being racist, then you are really
limiting your choices, and that's a shame.
Mayeen Alam
Dwayne Gregory <dog...@cbvcp.com> wrote:
>Ryan Mathews wrote:
>
>Re: Angel Cop and Jews
>
>> I take it that means you're going to buy if it comes out on LD? I have
>> no plans to. Edited or not, your purchase of this video supports the
>> racist bastards who produced this crap. The fact that the anti-
>> semitism was edited out doesn't keep the anti-semites from getting
>> their royalty money.
>
>I've heard it said that the Japanese are the most racist people on the
>face of the earth. That is, of course, a generality, and generalities
>are never 100 percent correct about everyone, but I've seen nothing to
>dispute the statement. On a recent trip to Tokyo, I was ready to leave
>after 7 days. You were not made to feel comfortable there and it occurred
>to me that this must be how some blacks in America must feel, with no one
>willing to sit beside them on public transits.
I wouldn't say most racist (though certainly up there). Chinese
are pretty racist (more than everybody's bad guys: whites). Arabs are
pretty racist. Jews are pretty high up on that ladder too. Blacks in places
like Zambia, etc. are pretty racist. Heck, African Americans are pretty
racist too!
Heck, I know my race (Indian subcontinental) is pretty racist.
I'm not, but I remember when I was really young, I was a little scared of
white people because I thought they had a skin disease (baring my soul
here ^^;). I got over that pretty quickly (though I still personally find
lightly colored skin to be more eastheticaly pleasing to me than "white"
i.e. non pigmented skin... Sorry, can't get over that no matter how hard
I try).
I would say that, yes, they (Japanese) are very racist, but
that's not uncommon... In fact, of all the countries I've been in (not
that many) America seems to be the least racist country (and we all know
about it's history). When my family first came to America, our first
friends were Japanese. In fact, they (no matter where they come in US)
still find a way to come visit us whenever they return to visit America.
In jr. high, a Japanese girl had a crush on me. I have met some
racist Japanese, but on the whole most Japanese people I met in the
academic setting were very happy to know me.
I think higher class educated Japanese people are mostly not
racist according to my experience. I also guess I'm too arrogant to
really care what the lower class thinks of me.
>Anime in general is laced with racism, often subtle racism where bad guys
>have foreign names, blacks usually are put in a bad light, etc. Many times
>it isn't even noticable unless you really understand the film or you are
>sensitive to a particular form of racism. If you don't buy anime that could
>be considered by some sensitive person as being racist, then you are really
>limiting your choices, and that's a shame.
There are stuff that puts foreigners in a very good light (not a
great example, but an example of a gaijin being the overlord of coolness:
Kanuka Clancy in Patlabor). Look at Macross! In Macross 7, even the main
character isn't Japanese (part French if I recall). It's all a grab bag.
One thing I can't understand is why Angel Cop was even picked for
import. The animation sucks. The leading lady is not someone *I* really
cared about (in fact, I wished she would die and give some relief from an
otherwise dreadful storyline involving her mysanthropic machismo). The
whole setup from the beginning was cheesy, contrived, and cliche. The
action was dull. Gratituos, soul-less, and even stratigicaly nonsensical
violence abounded. All in all, a really cheap, forgettable piece of tripe.
On top of that it was racist.
Really, why bother?
-M.
Chris Ferrar
japanese versions for myself to believe it!
Spanky
* OLX 2.1 TD * The heart is not a logical organ.
--
|Fidonet: Chris Ferrar 1:133/2611
|Internet: Chris....@anjhurin.atl.ga.us
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
Chris Ferrar
RR|>here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I h
RR|>not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
RR|>Anyone have a clue let me know.
RR|>thanks Rodney
I've got all the episodes through #5 and have watched them all
several times. I have never seen anything even slightly
resembling anti-semetic themes. I'd like to hear where these
people ever got such a ridiculous idea!
Spanky
* OLX 2.1 TD * The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.
M.Ba...@greenwich.ac.uk
> ...someone else wrote:
>
> >> I take it that means you're going to buy if it comes out on LD? I have
> >> no plans to. Edited or not, your purchase of this video supports the
> >> racist bastards who produced this crap. The fact that the anti-
> >> semitism was edited out doesn't keep the anti-semites from getting
> >> their royalty money.
No, you've got it all wrong. He said he would only buy it on LD if it
*didn't* have the anti-semitism edited out. (I.e. Only if it had the
original soundtrack.) Racism is apparently far less offensive to some
than bad dubbing...
[Sad, but true remarks about racism in anime deleted.]
> The racism in "Angel Cop," from what has been quoted here in the
> last few weeks, is not only blatant and unmissable -- I did not think
> that such viciousness existed *ANYWHERE* anymore but in the dreams of the
> Aryan Nations and a few other such deluded groups with no lives of their
> own to get on with. It's not a question of subtle racism that some
> *sensitive* person would notice or perceive; it's a question of absolute
> racism that any normal person would be unable to miss. Even people I
> know who hold some unfortunate stereotypes about certain races being
> lazier, or oversexed, or pushier, would be taken aback at the suggestion
> that Jews are directly in league with Lucifer.
Lucifer, in Angel Cop, is the chief baddie and doesn't refer to the one
down below, so to speak. It's also referring to a small group of
Jewsish conspirators and not the race as a whole. Thidly, it's fiction
and in no way represents the real world.
I don't think that they deliberately set about to make something that
was offensive. Well, not in that manner at least, it does go a bit OTT
with the gore though. What probably happened was that they wanted some
secret underground society for their bad guys, and went down the list
something like this:
Nazis - Already booked solid.
Communists - Past it.
Illuminati - Been done to death.
International Jewish Conspiracy - Could be?
I suppose it amounts to laziness rather than blatant racism. I much
prefer to see properly motivated characters, rather than stock heroes
and villains. The fact that they've landed their collective feet in
the brown sauce only serves them right for being so unimaginative.
Matt Barber (M.Ba...@greenwich.ac.uk)
PS - Please read this post with tongue firmly in cheek. I believe that
the best response to anything offensive is humour.
Andrew John Brewer
: RR|>Some time ago I was asking about Angel Cop and quite a few people on irc an
: RR|>here informed me that there was an obvious Anti jew theme in the movie. I h
: RR|>not seen this in any of the US release..... Was I fooled? Was it editted?
: RR|>Anyone have a clue let me know.
: RR|>thanks Rodney
: I've got all the episodes through #5 and have watched them all
: several times. I have never seen anything even slightly
: resembling anti-semetic themes. I'd like to hear where these
: people ever got such a ridiculous idea!
: Spanky
Maybe it's because you're watching THE EDITED AMERICAN VERSION?
Mark Shetterly
SO|>>Mind you, I'm not faulting the Japanese people at large for such
SO|>>intolerant ideas expressed in entertainment - Americans are also
SO|>>intolerant of a lot of things. But it just goes to show that
SO|>>"authenticity" and "being true to the source" can be overrated.
SO|>i think you're looking at this the wrong way. if something's got content l
SO|>this it's probably crap anyway, which i'm sure angel cop is, even though i'
SO|>only ever glanced at the front cover of it in the shops. i mean, it's call
SO|>"angel cop" for christ's sake. what did you expect? if something's good i
SO|>good and smart to be true to it. if something's crap it's
SO|>good to toss it, not
SO|>cover up the crapness with a nice shiny dub.
I don't understand what's supposed to be so bad about the Angel
Cop videos (other then the originals being anti-semetic, which
I couldn't care less about anyway). I've heard people
bad-mouthing those for a while now. My roommate and I have
episodes 2-5 and I'll probably get the rest of them. I thought
the story was allright, the art was kinda cool and the dub
wasn't too terrible. If there's some hidden racist message
there, I don't see it. Heck, everybody already picks on the
jews anyway, they're an easy target...
* OLX 2.1 TD * The man on top walks a lonely street.
--
|Fidonet: Mark Shetterly 1:133/2611
|Internet: Mark.Sh...@anjhurin.atl.ga.us
Ming Yau So
>So much for the purists who want absolutely authentic representation of
>the Japanese culture in their anime, who want exactly what was in the
>half-inch-thick paperback book glued to each tape) they can explain away
>any cultural peculiarities that Americans wouldn't understand.
>
>If they put this original dialog into the American tapes, how long before
>there was a serious move to ban anime? ALL anime?
So you think it's better to hide away the truth than to let the buyers know
that the money that they spend going to support such kind of racist crap ?
If people thinks the original content will upset people her, why are they
still importing this into US ? Is it because they think they can fool the
customers by hide away the original dialogue ?
>Mind you, I'm not faulting the Japanese people at large for such
>intolerant ideas expressed in entertainment - Americans are also
>intolerant of a lot of things. But it just goes to show that
>"authenticity" and "being true to the source" can be overrated.
What I prefer is nobody is going to import and support this kind of junk
in US. But if somebody do import it, I would like to see them didn't hide
the racist dialogue away, and thus people can see the true intention behind
the production of this piece of junk, and hence would not support this
kind of production.
Dwayne Gregory
>
> One thing I can't understand is why Angel Cop was even picked for
> import. The animation sucks. The leading lady is not someone *I* really
> cared about (in fact, I wished she would die and give some relief from an
> otherwise dreadful storyline involving her mysanthropic machismo). The
> whole setup from the beginning was cheesy, contrived, and cliche. The
> action was dull. Gratituos, soul-less, and even stratigicaly nonsensical
> violence abounded. All in all, a really cheap, forgettable piece of tripe.
> On top of that it was racist.
>
> Really, why bother?
> -M.
Why has a lot of anime been brought over? The Humanoid, The Crystal Triangle,
others too numberous to remember. Probably because they are cheap to get. I borrowed
a straight Japanese version of Angel Cop once. I got maybe 5 minutes into it before I
turned it off. Blatent violence and gore doesn't appeal to me.
Dwayne Gregory
> I won't argue with your characterization of the Japanese people (although
> I've never been to Japan, so I won't pretend to know for sure), but I
> disagree with your assertion that there's a lot of racist anime out
> there. Claudia and Roy in Macross/Robotech was the best example of a
> black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
> ever came out of Hollywood. In many shows, the hero and/or the bad guy
> have Western names. I've noticed very few instances of racial
> sterotyping in most anime. There are a few exceptions (such as the
> anti-semetic Angel Cop), but they are most definetely the exception, not the
> rule.
>
> Geo
Then you haven't seen a lot of anime. Have you seen Bubblegum Crisis?
Are the gay cops Japanese or foreigners? How many gay Japanese males have you seen
in popular, non-shojo, anime? Why are the three thugs in the 2nd episode of DNA squared
the only people in the show that don't look Japanese? In Kimba or Simba the White Lion,
forget which, blacks are jigaboos and all the villians are blond, blue eyed. In a lot
of shows the villians are Caucasian. Again, BGC. Brian J. Maison, Quincy. Yet Priss
has a Japanese surname. I could think of tons more if it wasn't so late at night.
Racism isn't really important, however, unless YOU make it important. I notice subtle
forms of racism but I ignore them just like I would have ignored the blatant racism
of Angel Cop. I consider BGC racist in some form but it is a good film and I'm adult
enough to separate out the good from the bad. When racism is blatant like Angel Cop
it is even easier to separate out the good from the bad.
Racist statements should never be banned or hidden away. They should be lured out into
the open and attacked in public so all can see how stupid the statement was. Therefore
Angel Cop should have been brought over with 100 percent accuracy in translation. Afterall,
if there is no truth behind a statement, it has no power unless you decide to give it
power yourself.
Neil Scott Nadelman
: I don't understand what's supposed to be so bad about the Angel
: Cop videos (other then the originals being anti-semetic, which
: I couldn't care less about anyway). I've heard people
: bad-mouthing those for a while now. My roommate and I have
: episodes 2-5 and I'll probably get the rest of them. I thought
: the story was allright, the art was kinda cool and the dub
: wasn't too terrible. If there's some hidden racist message
: there, I don't see it. Heck, everybody already picks on the
: jews anyway, they're an easy target...
--
You know, this is the scariest thing I've seen since I saw
the Pat Buchanan rally in New Hampshire last night.
----------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Neil Nadelman...@user1.channel1.com| The blood still pulses in my veins.
----------------------------------------| The sun, still at its zenith.
I fear nothing in life because | And I... I, Antonius Block...
I've already survived Theta-G! | Am playing chess with Death.
----------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Dwayne Gregory
>
> In article <31216D...@cbvcp.com>,
> Dwayne Gregory <dog...@cbvcp.com> wrote:
> >Anime in general is laced with racism, often subtle racism where bad guys
> >have foreign names, blacks usually are put in a bad light, etc. Many times
> >it isn't even noticable unless you really understand the film or you are
> >sensitive to a particular form of racism. If you don't buy anime that could
> >be considered by some sensitive person as being racist, then you are really
> >limiting your choices, and that's a shame.
>
> True, but there are several issues here. One is whether there is
> subtle racism, or blatant, absolutely unmissable racism. One is whether
> that racism exists in the final product, or whether it exists in the
> original but is edited out of the product that gets to us. Another is
> whether we boycott to avoid supporting products that we find
> objectionable, or to avoid supporting producers that we find objectionable.
I don't consider subtle racism to be any different from blatant absolute "Unmissible"
racism in that racism is racism. I take your message to imply that racism is more acceptable
if it is difficult to detect. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your
post. I would take the opposite view. Blatant, unmissible racism is also usually
blatantly stupid racism and is therefore far more "dismissible" and laughable than subtle
racism. Blatant racist remarks impact on the conscious level while subtle
racist remarks or portrayals impact on the subconscious level and is therefore
far more damaging.
>
> The racism in "Angel Cop," from what has been quoted here in the
> last few weeks, is not only blatant and unmissable -- I did not think
> that such viciousness existed *ANYWHERE* anymore but in the dreams of the
> Aryan Nations and a few other such deluded groups with no lives of their
> own to get on with. It's not a question of subtle racism that some
> *sensitive* person would notice or perceive; it's a question of absolute
> racism that any normal person would be unable to miss. Even people I
> know who hold some unfortunate stereotypes about certain races being
> lazier, or oversexed, or pushier, would be taken aback at the suggestion
> that Jews are directly in league with Lucifer.
You are obviously the proof of the pudding. You are very sensitive to the
particular form and content of the racist remarks. Would you happen to be
Jewish? I'm not. I'd have dismissed the racist content as the works of an idiot
and not let it affect me. You are sensitive enough to let it affect you.
Angel Cop is not the World and News Report. It does not present a factual
report. It is a rinky dink anime show.
> The boycott issue is trickier. Traditionally, the goal of a
> boycott is to make a statement of protest, or to achieve some alteration
> of policy. The question is, do we buy our copies of the tampered-with
> and non-objectionable movie? If we do, then the original producers rake
> in money for having made a viciously racist movie. What is the goal of
> the boycott? To stop such racist movies from being made, in Japan or
> here?
It's even more trickier. Where do you draw the line on what is and isn't
acceptable content and should we allow ANYONE to dictate acceptable content?
You dictate what content you accept by what you purchase. If you go beyond
that you are talking censorship and censorship is far more insidious than
any racial comment can ever be.
> Will the loss of a percentage of the US market be sufficient
> incentive to alter their ways?
You got to be kidding. The loss of the entire US market wouldn't affect their
bank accounts to the 5 significant digit.
> To be honest, I don't know enough
> historically about boycotts to know how well they succeed in changing
> policies, but I have my doubts about this one having much of an effect --
> especially as it has, apparently, such fertile home soil to flourish in.
>
> -jc
Angel Cop is a garbage movie. You don't need a boycott to kill this one.
Dwayne Gregory
>
> Dwayne Gregory (dog...@cbvcp.com) wrote:
> : Anime in general is laced with racism, often subtle racism where bad guys
> : have foreign names, blacks usually are put in a bad light, etc. Many times
> : it isn't even noticable unless you really understand the film or you are
> : sensitive to a particular form of racism. If you don't buy anime that could
> : be considered by some sensitive person as being racist, then you are really
> : limiting your choices, and that's a shame.
>
> I won't argue with your characterization of the Japanese people (although
> I've never been to Japan, so I won't pretend to know for sure), but I
> disagree with your assertion that there's a lot of racist anime out
> there. Claudia and Roy in Macross/Robotech was the best example of a
> black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
> ever came out of Hollywood. In many shows, the hero and/or the bad guy
> have Western names. I've noticed very few instances of racial
> sterotyping in most anime. There are a few exceptions (such as the
> anti-semetic Angel Cop), but they are most definetely the exception, not the
> rule.
>
> Geo
Now that I'm fully awake.
> Claudia and Roy in Macross/Robotech was the best example of a
> black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
> ever came out of Hollywood.
What has this got to do with Japanese racist attitudes? Was Roy Fokker Japanese?
Was Claudia? Not likely with those names. Who got the "white" girl and had the
chance at the "Chinese" girl? Hikaru, the Japanese chap. Now had Hikaru kissed
Claudia I'd have been more impressed.
Show me where the black dude "gets" the Japanese girl, and more than one example
thereof to prove it's not the fluke that just proves my "nothing is 100 percent correct"
statement and I'll agree with your point.
As it is, you have Roy with Claudia. White with black. Nadia and Jean. Black with
white. Cleopatra DC who doesn't show interest in anyone. The black female character from
Sol Bianca who is interested in everyone.
The closest I've seen is Yuri flurting with a black officer for a second in 005.
Later
Mayeen Alam
Dwayne Gregory <dog...@cbvcp.com> wrote:
>Geoffrey Scott wrote:
>
>> I won't argue with your characterization of the Japanese people (although
>> I've never been to Japan, so I won't pretend to know for sure), but I
>> disagree with your assertion that there's a lot of racist anime out
>> there. Claudia and Roy in Macross/Robotech was the best example of a
>> black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
>> ever came out of Hollywood. In many shows, the hero and/or the bad guy
>> have Western names. I've noticed very few instances of racial
>> sterotyping in most anime. There are a few exceptions (such as the
>> anti-semetic Angel Cop), but they are most definetely the exception, not the
>> rule.
>>
>> Geo
>
>Are the gay cops Japanese or foreigners? How many gay Japanese males have you seen
>in popular, non-shojo, anime? Why are the three thugs in the 2nd episode of DNA squared
>the only people in the show that don't look Japanese? In Kimba or Simba the White Lion,
>forget which, blacks are jigaboos and all the villians are blond, blue eyed. In a lot
>of shows the villians are Caucasian. Again, BGC. Brian J. Maison, Quincy. Yet Priss
>has a Japanese surname. I could think of tons more if it wasn't so late at night.
I don't know how the black people were origionally potrayed in
Jungle Taeitei (Jungle King-- Kimba BTW). Maybe you're basing your
impression on the dubs. As for Bubble Gum Crisis, well, that's one of the
worse examples anybody can pick. Consider the leader of the good guys:
Silya Stingray. Then the good foreigners in the show are Nene Romanova,
Leon McNichols, and Dailey Wong. Priss is half and half if I remember
right. Linna appears to be the only pure blood Japanese who is a good
guy.
Now then, Daily is gay, but he's also cool. Same for Sylvie (yet
another gaijin ^_^;). Anri is bi it seems, but all this certainly didn't
hurt the popularity of these characters in Japanese viewers eyes.
There are tons of inuendo and red herrings in BGC about the
sexuality of some of the other characters... I won't waste my time on
anything other than the truly blatant stuff (The reason I'm mentioning
Sylvie and Anri is because that was supposedly official, and a lot of
Japanese fans also saw it that way... From what I remember anyway, sorry
didn't compile sources).
You could mention racist Japanese shows, but you really should
try harder. BGC doesn't come close unless you are willing to chase a
vapor trail.
Now lets mention a few where the main characters are immensely
popular, but gaijins: Porco Rosso, Nausicaa, Laputa (these last two are
sorta arguable), partly for Dirty Pair, Legends of Galactic Heroes, Rhea
Gall Force(it seems Japanese people might have been wiped off the face of
the earth for all the ones that appear), Lenseman, Cobra... etc. Those
are all I can think up off the top of my head. There are not that many
Hollywood movies with non-caucasian heroes let alone non-American. Almost
*no* cartoons or animated features with foreigners headlining.
Now you could label those Swartzenager (sp???) and other action
hero movies as racist. Arab/Irish/Columbian drug/Japanese
businessmen/Russians/etc. villians appear on those all the time. Heck,
Denis Franz gets away with saying stuff like: "My experience is that you
guys are mostly involved in some way with drugs" to some Columbian guy in
NYPD Blue.
If you are looking for the mild type, it's there all over the
place. Part of the reason people were shocked that Americans bombed the
Federal Bld. was the conditioning they got from Hollywood.
It's there, the japanese aren't special in this thing. Japanese
*are* racist BTW... so is the rest of the world.
>
>Racism isn't really important, however, unless YOU make it important. I notice subtle
>forms of racism but I ignore them just like I would have ignored the blatant racism
>of Angel Cop. I consider BGC racist in some form but it is a good film and I'm adult
>enough to separate out the good from the bad. When racism is blatant like Angel Cop
>it is even easier to separate out the good from the bad.
It's not as blatant as say... American Ninja, or Hot Shots part
Deux, or oh... hell... I could go on and on and on... You can't pick up a
cheap action flick in America without it spewing crap racism.
Angel Cop is just plain sucky. Is it bad that it was made? Only
for the people who made it, and only because it sucks in story,
animation, errr... practically everything. If they make more like that,
they will go under racism or not.
>Racist statements should never be banned or hidden away. They should be lured out into
>the open and attacked in public so all can see how stupid the statement was. Therefore
>Angel Cop should have been brought over with 100 percent accuracy in translation. Afterall,
>if there is no truth behind a statement, it has no power unless you decide to give it
>power yourself.
Exactly... My point is this: Why risk a publicity backlash over
something that's not going to earn you that much money anyway?
BTW I'd suggest all those people who think that the world's
ending because Angel Cop is anti-semitic should get a life. Almost all
the races have been suffering this kind of potrayal for a long time. Go
defend the races outside your pet preffered defendants if you think you
aren't hypocrites. It's bad, and everybody gets socked with it.
-M.
Enrique Conty
>
> I've got all the episodes through #5 and have watched them all
> several times. I have never seen anything even slightly
> resembling anti-semetic themes. I'd like to hear where these
> people ever got such a ridiculous idea!
From the *JAPANESE* release. The offending lines were rewritten in the
Manga Entertainment version to something else altogether.
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
NuVista+ Mac genlock/video capture board for sale. | Wargame stuff for sale.
Read AMPlus, the Anime and Manga webzine - http://www.jurai.net/amplus/
Anime Central, the first anime convention of the Midwest, coming in 1998!
Enrique Conty
>
> Heck, everybody already picks on the
> jews anyway, they're an easy target...
Does that make it right?
TReed10
such viciousness existed *ANYWHERE* anymore but in the dreams of the
Aryan Nations and a few other such deluded groups with no lives of their
own to get on with."
The nature of racism in societies is such that being a racist doesn't feel
bad. It is taken as part of the environment, as much as sidewalks or mail
boxes. That's the scary part.
I don't feel competent to proclaim the Japanese "one of the most racist
people on earth," but I have heard things about how foreigners are
treated. I've heard that the word "gaijin", which nominally means
"stranger," actually has a connotation closer to the infamous English
"n-word." And "gaijin" is commonly applied to any non-Japanese, even other
Asians.
mi...@muddy.kesmai.com (Steve Miale): You got it! I do tie the "absolute
translation of Japanese, even the racist parts" with the "subs-only"
bigots in various threads. BOTH items come out of racism. Except with the
"subs-only" racists, it's their OWN culture against which they're
prejudiced.
min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So): My preferred solution would be this.
Someone in a dusty old film magazine article could mention, "Oh, by the
way, in the original Japanese, the evil creatures are called Jews. But
it's not REAL Jews they're talking about, and there are no visual
caricatures of Jews with huge noses or anything. So, we just left that out
in the English translation. The Jew line was just a
stream-of-consciousness thing added to the dialog; it wasn't like
Anti-Semitism is a big thing."
Now, if they DID caricature Jewish people visually - show men wearing the
Star of David chopping up Japanese babies with circumcision tools or
something - that would obviously be unacceptable and would never be
imported.
Actually, the people to really ask would be any Jewish anime fans. I have
the feeling that their opinions will be diverse, too. (Any volunteers?)
Mayeen Alam
>
> > : Anime in general is laced with racism, often subtle racism where bad guys
> > : have foreign names, blacks usually are put in a bad light, etc. Many times
> > : it isn't even noticable unless you really understand the film or you are
> > : sensitive to a particular form of racism. If you don't buy anime that could
> > : be considered by some sensitive person as being racist, then you are really
> > : limiting your choices, and that's a shame.
> >
> > I've never been to Japan, so I won't pretend to know for sure), but I
> > disagree with your assertion that there's a lot of racist anime out
> > there. Claudia and Roy in Macross/Robotech was the best example of a
> > black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
> > ever came out of Hollywood. In many shows, the hero and/or the bad guy
> > have Western names. I've noticed very few instances of racial
> > sterotyping in most anime. There are a few exceptions (such as the
> > anti-semetic Angel Cop), but they are most definetely the exception, not the
> > rule.
> >
> > Geo
>
>
>
> > black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
> > ever came out of Hollywood.
>
>Was Claudia? Not likely with those names. Who got the "white" girl and had the
>chance at the "Chinese" girl? Hikaru, the Japanese chap. Now had Hikaru kissed
>Claudia I'd have been more impressed.
The thing it has to do with Japanese racist attitudes is that the
movie was made by the Japanese. It had a Japanese audience. And it had
Japanese people critiquing it. Any of those people could have shot down
the idea of having a black character you were supposed to respect and
feel for any of the times. They didn't.
Now about Claudia having a romantic involvement with Hikaru. She
just wasn't that kind of character because she was the strong mother
figure of the show. She was the "in control and mature" character. There
was nothing to say that she wasn't attractive (Roy certainly thought so,
and he had a lot of female fans). It just wasn't her role.
>Show me where the black dude "gets" the Japanese girl, and more than one example
>thereof to prove it's not the fluke that just proves my "nothing is 100 percent correct"
>statement and I'll agree with your point.
Most romance in any film is a sort of vicarious wish fulfillment.
The Japanese could have the romantic male lead be black as well as a film
in Nigeria could have a Japanese romantic lead male. It just doesn't
occur to them. Most people aren't oriented in their thought patterns to
be including non-representative people (as far as the country is
concerned) as romantic leads. It doesn't show racism. In America it's
another story because the black population here *is* significant.
I'm Asian subcontinental, do I complain that there are no movies
in America where the Indian lead gets the white American girl?
I will admit there is one show I know of in anime where the
Indian lead gets the Japanese girl: Prefectural Defence Force....
errrrr... or is it the Japanese guy gets the Indian girl.... errrrrr....
Naw can't be that.... Damn that is confusing ^_^; Isn't Gus, the villian
in Patlabor an Indian? Maybe I should boycott! (hehehehehehe)
Now consider this: If you are black, and can't feel with the
Japanese main character when they go through heart pangs. Ask yourself
why.
The Japanese at least have an excuse (no significant exposure).
Do you?
>As it is, you have Roy with Claudia. White with black. Nadia and Jean. Black with
>white. Cleopatra DC who doesn't show interest in anyone. The black female character from
>Sol Bianca who is interested in everyone.
Well, if you are willing to bring aliens into the fray simply
because they look black (I like to think Nadia is an Indian... Heck, she
has an Indian name!), then I'll say how about: Umibozo (City Hunter) I
have no idea what his nationality is, but he looks black and man are the
Japanese women of the show all over him!!!
Then there is the black looking guy in Slam Dunk (I don't know
his nationality either, but I think he's just Japanese). He has a
Japanese love interest I think (haven't seen enough to know if they get
together or not).
Then there's Appleseed, admittedly Deunan isn't Japanese, but
she's the lead female. She's in love with a black guy (admittedly he
doesn't look black now that he's a cyborg...).
Wasn't Iria (Zeram) in love with a black guy named Bob? I'm not
totally sure of this.
Also remember a manga somewhere about this black boxer with a
Japanese girlfriend. Can't give the name though, saw it a long time ago.
>The closest I've seen is Yuri flurting with a black officer for a second in 005.
Honestly, I don't look for it. I'm too busy feeling for the
Japanese lead guy when he goes through love induced angst to suddenly go:
Wait a second! But he's Japanese! I can't sympathise with him!
-M.
Mark Shetterly
MI|>From: min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So)
MI|>Organization: Hen na Hen na Uchuu !
MI|>What I prefer is nobody is going to import and support this kind of junk
MI|>in US. But if somebody do import it, I would like to see them didn't hide
MI|>the racist dialogue away, and thus people can see the true intention behind
MI|>the production of this piece of junk, and hence would not support this
MI|>kind of production.
MI|>--
What EVER! I thought it was pretty cool...
Fat Bastard
fat.b...@813.sunshine.com
* OLX 2.1 TD * The sight of death frightens them [Earthers].
Dwayne Gregory
Never seen the dubs. The impressions come from the original Japanese version that a
friend has.
> As for Bubble Gum Crisis, well, that's one of the
> worse examples anybody can pick. Consider the leader of the good guys:
> Silya Stingray. Then the good foreigners in the show are Nene Romanova,
> Leon McNichols, and Dailey Wong. Priss is half and half if I remember
> right. Linna appears to be the only pure blood Japanese who is a good
> guy.
Hmmm. Nene is an airhead clutz, Leon is bisexual, Dailey Wong is an out and out fag.
Priss is at least half Japanese and kicks butt, Linna may be pure Japanese and
she kicks butt. Miss Stingray looks every bit Japanese. Was it ever stated what
her fathers name was? She doesn't mention his last name in her conversations with
her father in the first OAV. The tape that is sent to her says "For Silia only".
It doesn't mention last name. When is her last name first mentioned? Is it an
absolute that she didn't change her name to protect herself from her fathers
enemies?
> Now then, Daily is gay, but he's also cool.
You're missing the point. In Japan gays are never portrayed as Japanese in anime.
You will find live shows with gay, Japanese people in them, but not in anime. Any
anime character that is gay is a foreigner. The point is not whether he is cool
or a jerk, the point is his origin. To have a policy of gays being foreigners
implies that foreigners are not as good as Japanese or else there would be gay
Japanese in anime. Hence, the racism.
> Same for Sylvie (yet
> another gaijin ^_^;).
Are you sure she is gaijin? Can you name a source of this information? What is
her nationality?
> Anri is bi it seems, but all this certainly didn't
> hurt the popularity of these characters in Japanese viewers eyes.
Anri is the android, right?
> There are tons of inuendo and red herrings in BGC about the
> sexuality of some of the other characters... I won't waste my time on
> anything other than the truly blatant stuff (The reason I'm mentioning
> Sylvie and Anri is because that was supposedly official, and a lot of
> Japanese fans also saw it that way... From what I remember anyway, sorry
> didn't compile sources).
There is more than just inuendo in BGC. People have been arguing for years
about Dailey Wong and Leon. A friend brought his Japanese girlfriend over once to
watch BGC. She listened to Dailey speak for less than 10 seconds before exclaiming
in an embarrassed voice that Dailey Wong spoke like a woman. To an English speaker
like myself Dailey sounded no more faggy than anyone else. However, the girl
stated that his word usage was that of a woman, not of a man, something that the
subtitles never got across. An English speaker watching BGC is going to say that
nothing blatant occurred in the shows. Dailey and Leon "kidded" about gay activities
but nothing was shown. But to that Japanese person Dailey's gayness was quite
obvious.
> You could mention racist Japanese shows, but you really should
> try harder. BGC doesn't come close unless you are willing to chase a
> vapor trail.
I could indeed, but I don't need to. Racism in BGC is obvious unless your knowledge
base is insufficient. But don't get carried away with it. I could care less if
subtle racism exists in anime. I get upset with people who overreact to racism
that racism itself.
>
> Now lets mention a few where the main characters are immensely
> popular, but gaijins: Porco Rosso, Nausicaa, Laputa (these last two are
> sorta arguable), partly for Dirty Pair, Legends of Galactic Heroes, Rhea
> Gall Force(it seems Japanese people might have been wiped off the face of
> the earth for all the ones that appear), Lenseman, Cobra... etc. Those
> are all I can think up off the top of my head. There are not that many
> Hollywood movies with non-caucasian heroes let alone non-American. Almost
> *no* cartoons or animated features with foreigners headlining.
Your point? Are you trying to imply that just because not all gaijins are
portrayed in a bad light that I'm incorrect? I said that not every statement
is 100 percent correct. Not everyone is racist, not every anime show is racist.
Also, in shows where is appears that 100 percent of the characters are gaijin,
SOMEONE has to be put in a good light.
However, it goes a little deeper than that. I've asked my half Japanese friend
why the anime characters look the way they do, why do they make shows with no
Japanese in it? The answer was that Japanese think of themselves as being very
cosmopolitan. Ask a Japanese about characters like Nausicaa, Sheeta, Dirty Pair,
etc, and they will tell you that they see them as Japanese. I've argued in the
past that characters couldn't be Japanese, not with the physical characteristics
that they possess. I've been assured by tons of people, including Japanese that
they are. The fact that they don't look Japanese, they don't have Japanese names
is just as insignificant as the fact that Japanese characters with Japanese names
have blue eyes, blond hair, etc. Now you are arguing the opposite view. I gave up
my stance long ago on the nationalities of Nausicaa, Yuri and tons of other
characters. Don't use my original opinion against me here.
> Now you could label those Swartzenager (sp???) and other action
> hero movies as racist. Arab/Irish/Columbian drug/Japanese
> businessmen/Russians/etc. villians appear on those all the time. Heck,
> Denis Franz gets away with saying stuff like: "My experience is that you
> guys are mostly involved in some way with drugs" to some Columbian guy in
> NYPD Blue.
The fact that other shows by other people in other countries could be considered
racist in NO WAY changes whether or not Japanese shows are racist. The argument
above implies that it is alright "because everyone else does it." You are almost
conceeding the point by putting in the above.
> If you are looking for the mild type, it's there all over the
> place. Part of the reason people were shocked that Americans bombed the
> Federal Bld. was the conditioning they got from Hollywood.
> It's there, the japanese aren't special in this thing. Japanese
> *are* racist BTW... so is the rest of the world.
Let's not get too far from my original intent of my post. I'm not in any way saying
that Japanese are rotten people or that I'm condemning them. Japanese will treat
you wonderfully once they accept you. The original postings concerned condemning
an individual act of racism because that act was blatant. I'm simply asking where
do individuals set the limit? Is racism ok if it is not blatant? Why boycott this
one show? These other aspects that are coming up are interesting to talk about but
not part of my personal intent.
But since you mentioned it, the Japanese are special. What nation
really likes them? They bombed Pearl Harbor, raped China, sneak attacked Russia
a time or two, ravaged their neighboring countries such as Korea, the Philippines,
and Vietnam, even gave the Aussies problems. They turned 13 year old girls from
neighboring countries into sex slaves and didn't apologize in any way until recently.
What nation respects Japan? What nation have they not fucked over in the past?
I've talked with immigrants from Korea and Vietnam. The Japanese have reason to be
scared shitless about Korea getting a nuke.
Kevin L. Knoles
I believe I've read at least two comments about the animation in Angel Cop
being bad. It is not. This has been one of the more intelligent posts I've
seen in r.a.anime, but people, *Please*, hold the animation to objective
criteria. When you say that you feel Angel Cop is bad, give genuine reasons
(I'll agree with them - I think Angel Cop is a pretty bad anime too.), but
don't go bashing something irrelevent to your argument and truthfully good or
you risk losing your credibility.
Kevin L. Knoles klk...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Boris Molodyi
>(I like to think Nadia is an Indian... Heck, she
>has an Indian name!)
Wait a minute. Nadia is Russian name, and for a change purely Russian, not a
"Christian" name as many of them are...
The above does not necessarily represent views of my employer,
my educational institution, or of myself.
-Amon Duul
Dwayne Gregory
>
> In article <312626...@cbvcp.com>,
> Dwayne Gregory <dog...@cbvcp.com> wrote:
> >Geoffrey Scott wrote:
> > >
> > > Dwayne Gregory (dog...@cbvcp.com) wrote:
> >Now that I'm fully awake.
> >
> > > Claudia and Roy in Macross/Robotech was the best example of a
> > > black/white interracial couple I've ever seen, better than anything that
> > > ever came out of Hollywood.
> >
> >What has this got to do with Japanese racist attitudes? Was Roy Fokker Japanese?
> >Was Claudia? Not likely with those names. Who got the "white" girl and had the
> >chance at the "Chinese" girl? Hikaru, the Japanese chap. Now had Hikaru kissed
> >Claudia I'd have been more impressed.
>
> The thing it has to do with Japanese racist attitudes is that the
> movie was made by the Japanese. It had a Japanese audience. And it had
> Japanese people critiquing it. Any of those people could have shot down
> the idea of having a black character you were supposed to respect and
> feel for any of the times. They didn't.
Let's say I made a film about a Chinese boy kissing a Japanese girl. Would that
prove that I'm not racist, since I'm neither Chinese nor Japanese? If you want
to prove that you are not racist, then you have to show that having a member of
your race interested in a member of another race, one which is typified by your society
as being inferior, doesn't bother you. Film is supposed to mirror reality to some
degree, doesn't it? Well, in Japan, Japanese girls go out with blacks. They
rarely marry them, and it's more of a status symbol than anything else, but sex
between them is common and indeed usually the only reason that they are together.
Yet I don't remember one instance in anime of a Japanese girl with a black, and
I've seen a lot of anime. More than I should have.
However, this thread is getting too far from the subject matter I'm personally interested
in discussing. Racism is embedded in anime because anime follows Japanese traditions.
In Japan you don't show Japanese gays in anime. If a character must be gay, he is
a foreigner. If you need a couple of thugs in an all Japanese casted show, then bring
in some foreign looking dudes as in DNA. You want to show mixed couples, show a white
and a black. Macross, Macross Plus, Nadia. If you watch enough anime, you will see the
trends time and time again.
But don't get me wrong. I want to say this time and time again in every message. I'm
not down on the Japanese. They are a wonderful people once they accept you. I love their
customs, traditions, and share many of the views they hold. But their society is a
fairly rigid society and things are simply done in certain ways. The subtle racism
inherent in some of their views doesn't bother me nor should it bother anyone else.
Every race and every country has its racist facets. But the conversation started with
Angel Cop and censorship. If you are going to try to censor a show because of racism,
how far do you go? At what level do you say it's ok and not ok?
> >Show me where the black dude "gets" the Japanese girl, and more than one example
> >thereof to prove it's not the fluke that just proves my "nothing is 100 percent correct"
> >statement and I'll agree with your point.
>
> Most romance in any film is a sort of vicarious wish fulfillment.
> The Japanese could have the romantic male lead be black as well as a film
> in Nigeria could have a Japanese romantic lead male. It just doesn't
> occur to them.
It just doesn't occur to them? Give me a break. And it does just occur to
them to have couples of other mixes? That's about as lame an excuse as it gets.
> Most people aren't oriented in their thought patterns to
> be including non-representative people (as far as the country is
> concerned) as romantic leads.
Then why show a white and black at all, since neither is representative?
> Now consider this: If you are black, and can't feel with the
> Japanese main character when they go through heart pangs. Ask yourself
> why.
Oh, I'm not black at all. I'm just using black as an example. In some parts
of America, a black kid risks getting beat up if he is found with a white
woman. Blacks with white women has always been a sensitive subject in the
south. That's why showing a black/white couple in the states can be controversial.
It can also be taken as an insult by the Japanese to the part of the white population that
doesn't share the enlightened view that race isn't relevant. Which is why I question
such scenes in a Japanese film. If the Japanese want to show themselves as
enlightened, then they have to include Japanese in the equation.
> The Japanese at least have an excuse (no significant exposure).
> Do you?
Excuse for what? Racism?
> Then there is the black looking guy in Slam Dunk (I don't know
> his nationality either, but I think he's just Japanese).
Then he doesn't count. Umibozi isn't black, just big.
> Then there's Appleseed, admittedly Deunan isn't Japanese, but
> she's the lead female. She's in love with a black guy (admittedly he
> doesn't look black now that he's a cyborg...).
But Deunan is part black herself and not Japanese. Even in this case,
there isn't a Japanese element.
> Wasn't Iria (Zeram) in love with a black guy named Bob? I'm not
> totally sure of this.
Bob was her boss. Nothing more.
> Also remember a manga somewhere about this black boxer with a
> Japanese girlfriend. Can't give the name though, saw it a long time ago.
You may find blacks in manga with Japanese girls but very rarely and again,
it isn't anime. Manga is comics, not video. I've only seen one such instance
and the black guy was very cliche'd, the manga was not mainstream.
>
> >The closest I've seen is Yuri flurting with a black officer for a second in 005.
>
> Honestly, I don't look for it. I'm too busy feeling for the
> Japanese lead guy when he goes through love induced angst to suddenly go:
> Wait a second! But he's Japanese! I can't sympathise with him!
Who said anything about not sympathising with a Japanese? That isn't the subject
of the post.
Tze-yau Huang
> Show me where the black dude "gets" the Japanese girl, and more than one example
> thereof to prove it's not the fluke that just proves my "nothing is 100 percent correct"
> statement and I'll agree with your point.
A year or two back, I saw an article on Newtype magazine on animated
version of Amy Yamada's(sp??) novel, "Soul Music, Lovers only". I post an
inquery into it. But no body resonded. If you are interested in the
subject, this may be worth it to dig out. For people who are not
familiar with Japanese pop culture, Amy Yamada is one of the famous
"younger" Japanese writer. She build her fame during mid-80s by dipicting
releationship between Japanese female and African-American male,
mostly G.I.s. Her latest worked was written in English and published
late last year, but the title escaped me. Personally, I think her
writing is good, but exploitive.
> The closest I've seen is Yuri flurting with a black officer for a second in 005.
Males, regardless of race, would likely to be killed before they get
closer to those two.
> Later
Jim Huang
Jonathan M. Obien
In article <763_960...@anjhurin.atl.ga.us>
>
> I've got all the episodes through #5 and have watched them all
> several times. I have never seen anything even slightly
> resembling anti-semetic themes. I'd like to hear where these
> people ever got such a ridiculous idea!
Sure, you have five of six episodes of AC but those are dubbed, I
take it? Watch the original and you'll find out.
To everyone, chew on this (rhetorical question/s coming up):
If the word "Jewish" in Angel Cop is replaced by "Arab", do you
expect the series to be labeled as racist? Would it create the same
uproar if the villains are "Arab industrialists" (instead of Jewish)?
I just thought it's time to throw the proverbial monkey wrench into this
discussion.
WARNING: If you want to email me privately, do NOT autoreply to this post.
I'll ignore you if you do.
*************************************************************************
___________ * * ____________
/____ ___/ * Jonathan M. Obien * |____ ____|
____| |____ * jmo...@hal.physics.wayne.edu * | |
/____ ___/ * Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu * ____| |____
/ . \ * * |____ ____|
/ / \ \ . * "Beneath my skin, there lies * | |
__/ / \ \_/! * my savage heart, and it is * ____| |____
/___/ \__/ * where I draw my power." * |____________|
* - Ushio to Tora *
*************************************************************************
Dwayne Gregory
> > Dwayne Gregory <dog...@cbvcp.com>
>
> > Show me where the black dude "gets" the Japanese girl, and more than one example
> > thereof to prove it's not the fluke that just proves my "nothing is 100 percent correct"
> > statement and I'll agree with your point.
>
> version of Amy Yamada's(sp??) novel, "Soul Music, Lovers only". I post an
> inquery into it. But no body resonded. If you are interested in the
> subject, this may be worth it to dig out.
I'm not particularly interested in it. I was told Japanese girl/black male anime didn't exist
and I've never seen any myself despite the fact that in real life Japanese girls will date black
servicemen. Sounds like Amy Yamada is a free thinker. Thanks for the info.
Jourdan M. Bickham
> Dwayne Gregory <dog...@cbvcp.com>
>
> > Show me where the black dude "gets" the Japanese girl, and more than one example
> > thereof to prove it's not the fluke that just proves my "nothing is 100 percent correct"
> > statement and I'll agree with your point.
>
> A year or two back, I saw an article on Newtype magazine on animated
> version of Amy Yamada's(sp??) novel, "Soul Music, Lovers only". I post an
> inquery into it. But no body resonded. If you are interested in the
> subject, this may be worth it to dig out. For people who are not
> familiar with Japanese pop culture, Amy Yamada is one of the famous
> "younger" Japanese writer. She build her fame during mid-80s by dipicting
> releationship between Japanese female and African-American male,
> mostly G.I.s. Her latest worked was written in English and published
> late last year, but the title escaped me. Personally, I think her
> writing is good, but exploitive.
>
> > The closest I've seen is Yuri flurting with a black officer for a second in 005.
>
> Males, regardless of race, would likely to be killed before they get
> closer to those two.
>
> > Later
>
>
> Jim Huang
>
>
If you can remember the title to that Novel or any others by her (some
hopefully that has been translated, due to my fledgling skills in
japanese), please post, email, and etc. them. I would be very intereted
in reading it. Doumo arigatou
Ichiro