Female Otakus
Douglas Orlowski
bit. They're also not much into anime, most being into manga. Get
involved with Shojo manga more. Lots more women into mainstream SF and
TV though...go to Worldcon and find out yourself.
Genki
Hmmm... I guess this almost fits my girlfriend... she's definitely older
than me [though I must draw a veil on exactly how much older] and although
she's keen on Anime, she devours Manga like there's no tomorrow. She likes
the ones with homosexual storylines, I don't know if that's what "shojo"
means [probably put my foot right in it, but what's new] Mind you, she
doesn't have the language barrier that I have...
Edwin
--
"Manga is not cheese" - H.O. [who wishes to remain anonymous]
"Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?" - MPATQFTHG
"Work...? Now where did I put that dictionary?" - me.
Theodore Hua
Hope this helps! ^_^
Theo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M A C R O S S II | RANMA 1/2 - RANMA Addicts Need More Anime
L O V E R S A G A I N | "Ranma no BAKA!!!!!!" -Akane Tendo
------------------------
"Nene to Ranma-chan kawaii!!!!!"
(Nene & Ranma-chan is very cute, pretty, gorgeous, you get the idea!!)
- A devoted BGC & Ranma 1/2 fan ;)
Anime Nut - Theodore Hua "Resistance is fultile -
-President of the You will be otakunized!"
Anime Discovery Project a.k.a. _ADP_ -Gary Eng
-qu...@u.washington.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leung_Gerald
Being ordinary sure gives you no sense of attention!
GL (Now, let's start counting the responses!)
Alex Currier
ger...@baron.EECS.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>Wow! There's Female Otakus and then there's just Otakus!
I guess the difference between "female otaku" and "otaku" is kind of
like the difference between "nymphomaniac" and "boy". One uses a specific
term to define a female instantiation of what is a common state for
males.
I know a female otaku... she likes the ones with demons defiling young
school girls... go figure.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Currier | Who's a koochy little
myc...@mail.utexas.edu | bastich then?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
gail...@vax.sbu.ac.uk
Mmmm this sounds interesting does anyone know any other female Otakus. If you
do what are their characteristics?
Are they older than the normal male otaku? Myself I have not meet a female
Otaku. They seem rare.
Cleophas
james Steven Leek
Hmmm the only Female Otoku I know is 7 years old. ^_^
Freddy Chan
: Hmmm the only Female Otoku I know is 7 years old. ^_^
There are many girls in the Anime Expo, too.
KhChan
denizen of chaos
Well, there are female otaku, just as there are male otaku. The only
reason that we aren't more populous (and yes, I am female) is that
r.a.a. talks mainly about shonen stuff which isn't all that popular
with women.
And it isn't true that women like manga more than men. It is just
that there is more shoujo stuff (defined solely as "young girl"
with the connotation of relationship (though not necessarily romance))
available in manga form at this period of time.
Of course, there are good shoujo anime (if there can be such a thing...
lengthy argument about the definition of shoujo deleted) like Deimos
no Hanayome, Aries, Patalliro, Kaze to Ki no Uta, Tera e, etc. There
are even some shoujo that is popular on this list, like RG VEDA, X,
Arslan, and Vampire Princess Miyu/Yui.
We are not a mythical breed just rare on raa...every once in a while
a bunch of us show up...(Hiromi, Arcadia, Melinda, and a few others
spring to mind).
More appropriately, perhaps this thread should talk about why women
find the atmosphere of raa uncomfortable.
Just my 2 cents worth...
Arin Komins
ako...@midway.uchicago.edu
Paul 'Loony' Fenwick
>Mmmm this sounds interesting does anyone know any other female Otakus. If you
>do what are their characteristics?
>
>Are they older than the normal male otaku? Myself I have not meet a female
>Otaku. They seem rare.
I never thought of them as such... I never thought there would be a great
big hue and cry with messages floating around with "Colony of Female
Otaku discovered in remote tropical rainforest". :) I know a very large
number of females who are either casual fans (like anime, like subbed anime,
have their specific favorites and have seen a good deal), or casual fans
turning into otaku... True otaku aren't all that common for either
gender (although that brings up the question what makes an otaku, which
we've just had!). <shrug> Maybe it's just Melbourne...
The female otaku is somewhat like the male otaku, although has squishy
bits in different places.... :)
Have fun!
Paul
--
|Paul "Loony" Fenwick - Grand Order of the Pizza Cat |
|p...@ecr.mu.oz.au - Order of Otama-chan |
| - President of the Weekly Watchers of Wonderful Anime |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Freddy Chan
: >Mmmm this sounds interesting does anyone know any other female Otakus. If you
: >do what are their characteristics?
: >
: >Are they older than the normal male otaku? Myself I have not meet a female
: >Otaku. They seem rare.
In most Asian countries, like Japan or Hong Kong, there are a lot of female
otaku. On the other hand, in US, UK or AU, there are not too many female
otaku, simply because most of the titles that companies brought in here are
usually Science Fiction, action or H anime, etc. And there is extremely
few anime that is suitable for female, so the number of female otaku are
very small. Also, there is almost none female otaku reading this
newsgroup, so some of you just feel there is no female otaku existing.
KhChan
Enrique Conty
Data point:
- From personal experience, I'd say that the otaku with the biggest
anime collections with the most rare items tend to be females who
came into anime from TV show fandom. They already have the
experience with dubbing, trading, and storage/cataloguing of tapes.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
The Original
co...@mcs.com
denizen of chaos
>In most Asian countries, like Japan or Hong Kong, there are a lot of female
>otaku. On the other hand, in US, UK or AU, there are not too many female
>otaku, simply because most of the titles that companies brought in here are
>usually Science Fiction, action or H anime, etc. And there is extremely
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just a minute here...are you laboring under the assumption that women
in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
that matter ecchi stuff? I'd like to disabuse you of this notion. There
are many, many female sf/action fen out there. This isn't a reason.
The sf content has nothing to do with female viewership...(cruise
by one of the rec.arts.sf groups sometime to verify my statement)
>few anime that is suitable for female, so the number of female otaku are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Get a clue for a minute and live in the nineties...who in the seventeen hells
do you think you are that you can determine what is "suitable for female"...
growl...no wonder women don't tend to post to this group much...
>very small. Also, there is almost none female otaku reading this
>newsgroup, so some of you just feel there is no female otaku existing.
MegaZone
>In article <2v6hhr$n...@garuda.csulb.edu> khc...@csulb.edu (Freddy Chan) writes:
>>usually Science Fiction, action or H anime, etc. And there is extremely
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Just a minute here...are you laboring under the assumption that women
>in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
>that matter ecchi stuff? I'd like to disabuse you of this notion. There
Well, in general, he *is* right.
In the US the over-whelming majority of sci-fi, action, and 'adult'
themed movies, shows, etc are male. Look up some demographics for the
movie industry and see how the target markets are for such films. You
can do your own rough research by going to a few hard core action
movies. Everytime I've gone it is mostly males in the audience, and most
of the women there seem to be dates of some of the men.
That is not saying that all women don't like it, because obviously some
do. And some males like films that are 'tergetted' at women. It might
seem 'old fashioned' or something, but the fact is women and men have
different interests. Every study done shows this. Women and men tend to
notice different things, and they are attracted to different things. (this
is, of course, all in general. There are always exceptions.)
>by one of the rec.arts.sf groups sometime to verify my statement)
Yeah? Still mostly male. AND the nets are *NOT* a good indication.
Net users have traditionally been technology oriented and/or well
educated (college students and above) and those people, as a group, have
always shown a higher interest in science fiction. So it is no
surprise that women on the nets who an interest.
>>few anime that is suitable for female, so the number of female otaku are
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Get a clue for a minute and live in the nineties...who in the seventeen hells
>do you think you are that you can determine what is "suitable for female"...
Get a clue and welcome to the real world. Men and women *are* different.
That does *not* imply better or worse, and I believe in total equality in
rights, but that still doesn't change the market forces. Why do you think
every studio makes films with 'target audiences'? And why is the target
audience for every action and msot every sci-fi film teenage MALES? While
drama and romance films are FEMALES? Becuase studies and plain old
experience show that's who goes to those films. In Japan there are
different anime styles, and the audience for those too are divided based
on gender.
--
mega...@wpi.wpi.edu mega...@world.std.com mega...@hotblack.schunix.dmc.com
"I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!"
Moderator: WPI anime FTP site, 130.215.24.1 /anime, the anime FanFic archive;
rec.arts.anime.stories, questions to anime-dojin...@wpi.wpi.edu
GTW/HU d-- -p+ c++(++++) l u+ e+ m+(*)@ s++/+ !n h- f+ !g w+ t+@ r+@ y+(*)
Freddy Chan
: >In most Asian countries, like Japan or Hong Kong, there are a lot of female
: >otaku. On the other hand, in US, UK or AU, there are not too many female
: >otaku, simply because most of the titles that companies brought in here are
: >usually Science Fiction, action or H anime, etc. And there is extremely
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Just a minute here...are you laboring under the assumption that women
: in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
: that matter ecchi stuff? I'd like to disabuse you of this notion. There
: are many, many female sf/action fen out there. This isn't a reason.
: The sf content has nothing to do with female viewership...(cruise
: by one of the rec.arts.sf groups sometime to verify my statement)
I didn't say females don't like SF/action film. I know a lot of female
friends like Gundam, Yuu Yuu Hakusho, etc. What I mean is most of these
US companies are targeting at male audiences rather than female audiences,
in terms of advertising and the selection of anime.
: >few anime that is suitable for female, so the number of female otaku are
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Get a clue for a minute and live in the nineties...who in the seventeen hells
: do you think you are that you can determine what is "suitable for female"...
: growl...no wonder women don't tend to post to this group much...
I agree some of these sentences may be a little one-sided. When I
forward this message, I just woke up after an exhausting trip from Anime
Expo. So when I wrote that paragraph, I just didn't pay too much attention
for what I wrote, sorry about that.
KhChan
Akane Tendo
: Data point:
: - From personal experience, I'd say that the otaku with the biggest
: anime collections with the most rare items tend to be females who
: came into anime from TV show fandom. They already have the
: experience with dubbing, trading, and storage/cataloguing of tapes.
--
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( \ / ) Maison Ikkoku Fan!!
( \ / )
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/ / \ Preservation Society ^_^
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/\/----\/\ ) s Member of the Ataru Admirers
^^ ^^----------\| Association ^_^ ^_^
Enrique Conty
: in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
: that matter ecchi stuff?
Certainly not. But the large majority of
fans of such themes over here are male.
Celia Stingray
>denizen of chaos (ako...@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>:
>: Just a minute here...are you laboring under the assumption that women
>: in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
>: that matter ecchi stuff?
>Certainly not. But the large majority of
>fans of such themes over here are male.
CS- Well, when what does that make me? Chopped liver? Rare? A freak of
nature?
Celia Stingray
>Yeah? Still mostly male. AND the nets are *NOT* a good indication.
>Net users have traditionally been technology oriented and/or well
>educated (college students and above) and those people, as a group, have
>always shown a higher interest in science fiction. So it is no
>surprise that women on the nets who an interest.
CS- To repeat the previous post, what does that make me then? A freak?
I have NO college education, I have no academic ties or credentials at
all. I care very little about technology in general except for
theoretical studies about how it affects humans who interact with it. But
that's not the point. Yes, the Internet and r.a.a. in particular are
mostly male-oriented. But people shouldn't be making statements about
"women don't like the internet", or "women don't watch action
anime/films/movies", or "women only like shojo" or whatever.
When anyone makes such a comment, it not only insults the handful of
us who DO post from time to time, who DO "go against the norm", it
discourages and reinforces that attitude for other women who would wish
to break through and become active posters, or whatever. I post here very
rarely, but only because of netiquette (half the time I agree with what
is said) or because the topic simply does not suit my interests. I may
like You You Hakusho, but not enough to comment on it. And the staggering
amount of disinformation that floats through this and alt.fan.bgcrisis is
staggering.... (but that's also another issue and unrelated).
>audience for every action and msot every sci-fi film teenage MALES? While
>drama and romance films are FEMALES? Becuase studies and plain old
>experience show that's who goes to those films. In Japan there are
>different anime styles, and the audience for those too are divided based
>on gender.
CS- Okay, but you have heard of the concept of a "self-perpetuating
myth", haven't you? aka "Women don't go to these kinds of movies so we
won't sell it to them". "Men don't go to these kinds of movies so we
won't sell it to them." Of course women aren't going to go to action
movies if they are not advertised or solicited TO attend... and every
female friend I have is a big fan of the "Lethal Weapon" series, a very
hardcore, if comedic ACTION movie. Whether this relates to Mel Gibson
being involved is a different issue.... ;)
I don't live my life by other people's demographics, and I would
discourage others from doing the same.
Celia Stingray, Wizardess of Mega-Tokyo (AS): ce...@teleport.com
Makoto @ AnimeMUCK.....Priss @ Altered States...
Author of BGC: Tokyo Epoch and the Biased Review columns....
Unauthorized Critic, Scholar and OtaQueen of West Coast Fandom of BGC...
--
Enrique Conty
Rare.
Look around you, Carmen. How many other females do you know who
are big BGC fans, or anime fans for that matter? How many males?
I know it's not how things should be, but it's how things are.
I think we should do something about it, don't you agree?
MegaZone
>CS- To repeat the previous post, what does that make me then? A freak?
Frankly, yes, if you want to be strict. You are outside of the norm.
I don't care what anyone says, you have to use generalizations in life.
If you try to deal with everyone as an individual all the time you will
get no where. So business uses demagraphics.
Internet is mostly college students, followed by technical professionals,
then there is a growing number of users from commercial sites. But the
balance is still mostly technical/educated users, and mostly male. That
is in part because female attendance at technical schools (which had
net access long before liberal arts schools) is low. As an example WPI
had a 7:1 ratio (male:female) when I got there, and (partly due to an
effort on the schools part) it is now 4:1. Whereas most liberal arts
schools I know of are close to 1:1 or have more women than men. Of course
it is a complex issue, part of it is the way society influences things.
And part of it is that men and women *are* different. We learn differently,
we pick up on different things, and different approaches work better with
either group. That is based on every psychological study done, I have
yet to see one that contradicts that. (remember the big argument over
the SAT? Males routinely did better than females. In fact, the entire
thing was biased towards middle to upper class white males.)
>mostly male-oriented. But people shouldn't be making statements about
>"women don't like the internet", or "women don't watch action
>anime/films/movies", or "women only like shojo" or whatever.
Have you actually done any reading on the demagraphics or user response?
Even all the women I've seen writing on it take the same stance I do.
Women (in our society) don't respond to machines/computers as well as
men do. Men generall get into the tech and wantto make it work, they
refuse to give in to a machine. While women just want it to do what
they want it to and don't care how it works. That has the dual basis
of society and natural tendancies. And as I keep saying, just to
remind you, that is in general which is the only effective way to deal
with it. Which is why there are several studies and programs to
determine ways to get women more interested in techincal fields.
There was an article in Newsweek a while back, which, while rather
sensationalist, presents the points well. The style was written to sell
issues of course, but it is a basis. BTW, the authors were female. (and
they never missed a chance to make male net users look like perverted
scum... but...)
> When anyone makes such a comment, it not only insults the handful of
I say you're too sensitive then. It is currently the truth, deal with it
as you will.
>discourages and reinforces that attitude for other women who would wish
>to break through and become active posters, or whatever. I post here very
And that isn't likely to change over night, it never has in any other
field. *Every* study done to date has shown that women don't like the
way the nets are. They don't like the flames, don't like dealing with
the argumentative stance most users have, and don't like the impersonal
style of the nets. Those are the basic findings. the solution is
difficult, becuase you are not going to get the old users to change
their ways. the attitude (and I have it to) is that the societal standards
already exists, and if you want to join into the society you have to
adjust. It is like moving to a new country, you have to adapt to their
customs.
>amount of disinformation that floats through this and alt.fan.bgcrisis is
>staggering.... (but that's also another issue and unrelated).
So you correct them, that's what a lot of us do. Don't let it go when you
see it, you just make it worse.
>CS- Okay, but you have heard of the concept of a "self-perpetuating
>myth", haven't you? aka "Women don't go to these kinds of movies so we
yes, and it only goes so far. It is the same in every country, in
every entertainment medium. Not jsut demagraphic studies, but
psychological studies on what people like. Men and women *do* notice
different things, and are drawn to different things. (Again, as always,
those are the general finsings. Which, again, is the only way you can
really operate in the real world on a wide basis.)
>movies if they are not advertised or solicited TO attend... and every
How do they solicit men or women? The movie is full of gunfire and
explosions, that's all most of the ads are too. There is no sex bias
in the ads, but the men respond. The MOVIE itself is attracting the
men, and not as many women. How would *you* explain that?
>female friend I have is a big fan of the "Lethal Weapon" series, a very
>hardcore, if comedic ACTION movie. Whether this relates to Mel Gibson
>being involved is a different issue.... ;)
Lethal Weapon is not, to me, hardcore. And most of the women I know
say they are fans because of Mel, yes. But a few do like the action.
A few - not enough for the movie studios to bother with. And I know
guys who don't like them. (Well, I know some gys who like them because
of Mel too... I have a lot of gay friends...)
> I don't live my life by other people's demographics, and I would
>discourage others from doing the same.
No one really lives their lives by demagraphics, but we make the data
with our lives.
Yes, you are out of the ordinary. So am I (I really enjoy a lot of films
that are aimed are a female audience. Drama and romance. And I find a
lot of action movies just plain stupid. And so many of them can't
get their tech straight. Iron Eagle went WAY downhill, and it was bad
to start.)
MegaZone
*sigh*
Did you see the words 'large majority' up there?
Yes, you are a statisitcal abhoration. Welcome to the fringe.
S.G. Hagen
discussung the differences between male and female fans to this. I'm not
surprised, had to happen, always will when people start trying to use
generalizations for a certain group of people.
In article
<2va071$c...@bigboote.wpi.edu>, MegaZone <mega...@obsidian.WPI.EDU> wrote:
>ce...@teleport.com (Celia Stingray) shaped the electrons to say:
>>CS- To repeat the previous post, what does that make me then? A freak?
>
The minute you deviate slightly you are no longer normal, as if people
didn't have enough stress to deal with they need to worry about what is
supposedly normal for them?
>
>I don't care what anyone says, you have to use generalizations in life.
>If you try to deal with everyone as an individual all the time you will
>get no where. So business uses demagraphics.
Ah, generalizations, let's use the ugly word and call them what they
are. Stereotypes. Yes we do use them, it makes out lives easier if we can
pigeonhole people into tight little boxes of what we think they should be.
I took a psych course on human thinking about two years ago. We spent
most of the course covering the mistakes people make, why they can be
conned, why optical illusions fool them, that sort of thing. One of the
main reasons was that they use mental tools and processes that usually work
but don't in many cases.
Using stereotypes works sometimes but they often fail, and people get
hurt. Personally I believe humanity has the ability to be more than the
sum total of neural programming. You are going to use stereotypes, yes,
but if you actually take a moment to think about the fact that you are
using them you might hurt less people.
Really, would it be so bad if everyone in the world actually stopped
and thought before saying, doing or typing something?
[snip]
>And part of it is that men and women *are* different. We learn differently,
>we pick up on different things, and different approaches work better with
>either group. That is based on every psychological study done, I have
>yet to see one that contradicts that. (remember the big argument over
>the SAT? Males routinely did better than females. In fact, the entire
>thing was biased towards middle to upper class white males.)
Perhaps. I've seen those same studies, read some of them, discussed
them with my profferssors. I've also seen the attacks on them. One
thing which keeps coming up is that it probably has a lot to do with
how males and females are socialized. I mean look at it even today. Matel
is coming out with barbies that say they don't like math. SATs are biased
towards males, does tham mean females are inferior to males? No. It
means that the people who set up SATs are no doubt white, upper class
males.
I also have a problem with statements that claim things like males and
females learn differently. Even if it is true it is being used as an excuse.
Why are there more males in technology courses in the universities?
Becasue males and females learn differently.
It dosen't explain anything, but it makes a great excuse so things
don't have to change.
[snip, I think]
>
>
> When anyone makes such a comment, it not only insults the handful of
>
>I say you're too sensitive then. It is currently the truth, deal with it
>as you will.
I remember when I first started reading this new group. It was about
a month or two before I started posting, no doubt some people wished I
had waited longer. If in that time someone had written something that
insulted my race, my religion, my nationality or my sex I may have
decided that the group was full of jerks and unsubscribed. Yes, that is
being too sensative but then again why stay in an environment that is bad
for your health, mental, physical or otherwise?
Like I mentioned above, if people will take a moment to think before
writing something it might help. (I'm guilty of posting something before
thinking so this is a little hypocritical but I try and I apologize when
I'm wrong.)
>
>>discourages and reinforces that attitude for other women who would wish
>>to break through and become active posters, or whatever. I post here very
>
>And that isn't likely to change over night, it never has in any other
>field. *Every* study done to date has shown that women don't like the
>way the nets are. They don't like the flames, don't like dealing with
>the argumentative stance most users have, and don't like the impersonal
>style of the nets. Those are the basic findings. the solution is
>difficult, becuase you are not going to get the old users to change
>their ways. the attitude (and I have it to) is that the societal standards
>already exists, and if you want to join into the society you have to
>adjust. It is like moving to a new country, you have to adapt to their
>customs.
Ah, the melting pot theory. Give up your individuality, become part of
the whole. Makes glad to have learned the value of a cultural mosaic.
Though you would be hard pressed to tell we value that these day I'll admit.
>
>>amount of disinformation that floats through this and alt.fan.bgcrisis is
>>staggering.... (but that's also another issue and unrelated).
>
>So you correct them, that's what a lot of us do. Don't let it go when you
>see it, you just make it worse.
Yea, that one is bang on. As I mentioned above if I had been insulted
in any way I might have unsubscribed but if the next article had been one
attacking the first I would know two things.
1. Not everyone thinks like that on the news group.
2. I don't have to sit still and take that sort of crap.
>
>>CS- Okay, but you have heard of the concept of a "self-perpetuating
>>myth", haven't you? aka "Women don't go to these kinds of movies so we
>
>yes, and it only goes so far. It is the same in every country, in
>every entertainment medium. Not jsut demagraphic studies, but
>psychological studies on what people like. Men and women *do* notice
>different things, and are drawn to different things. (Again, as always,
>those are the general finsings. Which, again, is the only way you can
>really operate in the real world on a wide basis.)
>
>>movies if they are not advertised or solicited TO attend... and every
>
>How do they solicit men or women? The movie is full of gunfire and
>explosions, that's all most of the ads are too. There is no sex bias
>in the ads, but the men respond. The MOVIE itself is attracting the
>men, and not as many women. How would *you* explain that?
>
>>female friend I have is a big fan of the "Lethal Weapon" series, a very
>>hardcore, if comedic ACTION movie. Whether this relates to Mel Gibson
>>being involved is a different issue.... ;)
>
>Lethal Weapon is not, to me, hardcore. And most of the women I know
>say they are fans because of Mel, yes. But a few do like the action.
>A few - not enough for the movie studios to bother with. And I know
>guys who don't like them. (Well, I know some gys who like them because
>of Mel too... I have a lot of gay friends...)
>
>> I don't live my life by other people's demographics, and I would
>>discourage others from doing the same.
>
>No one really lives their lives by demagraphics, but we make the data
>with our lives.
>
>Yes, you are out of the ordinary. So am I (I really enjoy a lot of films
>that are aimed are a female audience. Drama and romance. And I find a
>lot of action movies just plain stupid. And so many of them can't
>get their tech straight. Iron Eagle went WAY downhill, and it was bad
>to start.)
>
Ever wondered why movie attendance is like that?
I suppose we could just say females don't like action films and
leave it at that but that would be one of those stereotypes and I'm not
going to be gulity of faulty thinking.
Let's look at one of them, Diehard, very represenative of the genre
these days. Bruce Willis, fighting, shooting, climbing through airducts,
up elevators shafts. Yea! What an adventure.
The leading female role, whose name I can't even remeber which
should say volumes, gets to, well what did she get to do? Oh yea, be a
hostage at the end of the movie.
It's not that females do not like action movies its that they do
not like them as they are currently presented. Strong male leads, weak,
ineffectual female roles. Little wonder they don't go to see them. IMHO.
One of the movies coming out in a few weeks, True Lies. Arnold
Schwarzeneger, being Arnie to the max, and the female lead, playing his
wife. A woman who never realized that her husband was a spy and from the
trailers I've seen gets to be pretty darn ineffctual. Yea, there's a
character most females will enjoy seeing, stupid and useless.
Any one know how the Alien movies did with female audiences?
As for why they like drama and romances, well most of those movies
will present strong female characters.
The same goes for Science Fiction and Fantasy. It only been fairly
recently that more females have begun to write in that genre and more
male authors have been willing to write female characters. As a result
more females are beginning to get into that type of literature.
But it is still slow.
Hopefully it will speed up.
People saying females are not into action movies or science fiction
on this news group is only going to slow it down though.
Remember. THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Hopefully I have.)
\hat w/ich\does /ot k\ll us /ust have
mi\s/d us. \ / \ /
/ \ /-\riedrich /\etzsche
/ \ / \ / \
SIG unavailable due to copyright infringement
S. Hagen u884...@muss.cis.McMaster.ca
Tomar
>Celia Stingray (ce...@teleport.com) wrote:
>
>Look around you, Carmen. How many other females do you know who
>are big BGC fans, or anime fans for that matter? How many males?
>
>I know it's not how things should be, but it's how things are.
>I think we should do something about it, don't you agree?
I don't think Conty was trying to offend you. He is just stating
a fact. We aren't being prejudice.
Is it right or wrong to have so few women in Anime?
I don't know and I am not sure that we should even try answer this.
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
My life quest: To find and watch all Ranma 1/2 episodes I can!!!!
The only obstacle is my limited funds!
Favorite Quote: "Any Anime is better than no Anime..."
Leung_Gerald
denizen of chaos <ako...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>We are not a mythical breed just rare on raa...every once in a while
>a bunch of us show up...(Hiromi, Arcadia, Melinda, and a few others
>spring to mind).
"Occasionally, the ever-elusive and endangered species, Female Otakus,
appears to make a comment."
>More appropriately, perhaps this thread should talk about why women
>find the atmosphere of raa uncomfortable.
Hmm . . . I guess I can't contribute, since I don't understand why
women find the atmosphere uncomfortable. I'm not a woman, I don't
find the atmosphere uncomfortable, and I don't see how the raa
atmosphere should be uncomfortable for women. Please enlighten!
Ten Queue!
GL
S.G. Hagen
S.G. Hagen <u884...@muss.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
[snip, rip, slash]
>
> It's not that females do not like action movies its that they do
>not like them as they are currently presented. Strong male leads, weak,
>ineffectual female roles. Little wonder they don't go to see them. IMHO.
> One of the movies coming out in a few weeks, True Lies. Arnold
>Schwarzeneger, being Arnie to the max, and the female lead, playing his
>wife. A woman who never realized that her husband was a spy and from the
>trailers I've seen gets to be pretty darn ineffctual. Yea, there's a
>character most females will enjoy seeing, stupid and useless.
Oooops. Talk about not thinking before you write something. There
may be an unfortunate line of thought here that might suggest that
females who presently like action films identify with this sort of character.
[Open mouth, insert foot]
There a plenty of other reasons for females to like action movies
that have nothing to do with identifying with said characters. THe two
most probable are that they like the genre, not really all that hard to
believe, or that they really like on of the actors or actresses, or even
the screen writer or producer.
Yea, this thinking before thing is a bit tough, but thinking
afterwards and correcting problems is much better than not thinking at all.
Chris Krolczyk
: Celia Stingray (ce...@teleport.com) wrote:
: : In <2v7th8$3...@Venus.mcs.com> co...@MCS.COM (Enrique Conty) writes:
: : >denizen of chaos (ako...@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: : >: Just a minute here...are you laboring under the assumption that women
: : >: in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
: : >: that matter ecchi stuff?
: : >Certainly not. But the large majority of
: : >fans of such themes over here are male.
: : CS- Well, when what does that make me? Chopped liver? Rare? A freak of
: : nature?
: Rare.
: Look around you, Carmen. How many other females do you know who
: are big BGC fans, or anime fans for that matter? How many males?
I hate to jump into this thread with a rather uncomfortable observation,
but...
A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
so much that they _hit_ on her, mind you, but they were displaying a distinct
lack of hormonal control. I've heard other stories of that sort of b.s.
going on at anime meetings, so it could be said that one reason why there are
a relatively small number of female otaku is because some of the male ones
are basically hopeless geekoids around women. 'Nuff said, I hope.
--
-Chris Krolczyk krol...@mcs.com
In the event you were offended by the preceding message, please don't
bother suing over it. There's better ways to waste tons of your own cash.
MegaZone
>The minute you deviate slightly you are no longer normal, as if people
>didn't have enough stress to deal with they need to worry about what is
>supposedly normal for them?
Why does a person ahve to worry about it? I'm not normal and I don't.
My arguments are from the business side, if you are dealing with the
marketplace you *have* to deal with the norms, you can't deal on an
individual basis. Or you will never do anything than minor business.
I think that is fairly obvious. Yes, they *ARE* stereotypes. Big deal.
The word doesn't have an automatic negative to me. And I still will
state that we all operate on them everyday, because trying to deal with
anything, whether it be an inanimate object or a person, on a totally
individual basis is futile.
The idea of a 'car' is a stereotype. You don't have ot think "I'd better
not step out in front of that 1989 red Dodge Daytona ES Turbo with grey
trim and racing stripes." You think "I'd better not step in front of that
car."
Yes, the first is mroe precise, but the second is simpler and more
efficient.
And yes I realise it can be taken to extremes, any extremes are bad. Going
to complete stereotypes or complete individual assestment are equally poor
choices.
>are. Stereotypes. Yes we do use them, it makes out lives easier if we can
>pigeonhole people into tight little boxes of what we think they should be.
You are taking it a few notches further by the negative spin you palce on
it.
When you walk into a bank to talk to a teller, you draw upon a
stereotype of 'bank teller' to allow you to communicate. We all do it.
The larger the target group, the broader the stereotypes. And therefore
the less 'normal' an individual member will be. But it is still the only
effective tool in dealing with large groups. A studio can't target Bob
over on Elm Street, they have to rely on statisical norms.
>conned, why optical illusions fool them, that sort of thing. One of the
>main reasons was that they use mental tools and processes that usually work
>but don't in many cases.
Yeah, to me that is common knowledge. It is due to the pattern matching
the human brain does to process information. The matching is based
upon the previously established database - your experience and learning.
It is what allwos us to deduce the function of new objects, but it is also
a trap that can mislead us.
> Using stereotypes works sometimes but they often fail, and people get
>hurt. Personally I believe humanity has the ability to be more than the
In business they work most of the time. And yes, part of that is self
fullfilment, but it is still effective.
> Really, would it be so bad if everyone in the world actually stopped
>and thought before saying, doing or typing something?
No, I encourage that. And I do it most of the time. I doubt anyon does
it all the time. I thought of what I said in my last post, and revised it
as I turned it over to best express my opinions.
>thing which keeps coming up is that it probably has a lot to do with
>how males and females are socialized. I mean look at it even today. Matel
Yes, the major problem in the field today is figuring out what is
responsible for what. Most experts agree that some of it is social and
some is 'built in'. (The latter is evidenced by similar findings in
different societies, as well as psychological studies.)
>towards males, does tham mean females are inferior to males? No. It
>means that the people who set up SATs are no doubt white, upper class
>males.
That was my point. Males and females have different approaches (for
whatever reason, as above) and the test favored the approach used by white
males. It was also biased on social position. If I recall upper clas
white males did best, followd by upper class white females, followed by
males from other ethnic backgrounds, followed by females from other
ethnic backgrounds.
>females learn differently. Even if it is true it is being used as an excuse.
>Why are there more males in technology courses in the universities?
>Becasue males and females learn differently.
It depends on your approach. Yes, it can be used as an excuse. But
would you ignore it due to that? That is dumb. You still need to address
the point in order to change the fact. Or it won't change.
>decided that the group was full of jerks and unsubscribed. Yes, that is
>being too sensative but then again why stay in an environment that is bad
>for your health, mental, physical or otherwise?
*shrug* I do it. But I tend to have a thicker skin. I also tend to be
bluntly honest.
I grew up being overweight, always taller, and with health problems. I'm
no stranger to verbal/emotional abuse, I know how cruel people can be.
>>their ways. the attitude (and I have it to) is that the societal standards
>>already exists, and if you want to join into the society you have to
>>adjust. It is like moving to a new country, you have to adapt to their
>>customs.
> Ah, the melting pot theory. Give up your individuality, become part of
>the whole. Makes glad to have learned the value of a cultural mosaic.
That is *NOT* what I said.
Yes, become part of the whole. But there is no need t othrow away your
individuality. BUt you can't expect to be wildly different and be accepted.
You should know that. And you can't join an existing group that has
millions of members (the nets) and expect all of them to change to make
you comfortable.
I never asked the people here before me to change to make it easier for
me to fit in, and neither did anyon else I know. And if anyone did they'd
probably be laughed off the nets. There are established rules for social
interaction on the nets, what we call 'netiquette', and new users have to
find a way to except that. Or expect nothing but flak from the existing
members.
Exeryone can add their own abilities, talents and opinions. But you still
have to find a way to deal with the people who are already here. The
people who have the most problems are those who come in with an attitude
that they're going to run the show, and then find out that no one will
listen to them because they're not operating within the rules of polite
society.
> The leading female role, whose name I can't even remeber which
>should say volumes, gets to, well what did she get to do? Oh yea, be a
>hostage at the end of the movie.
Yes, you do have a point to a degree. but...
> Any one know how the Alien movies did with female audiences?
yes. It didn't do much better than the average action movie. I believe
someon did a study on it, or some sort of survey, or something...
Because I recall reading interviews with some women. They're attitude
was that Ripley didn't appeal to them, she was 'acting like a man'. Now,
how much of that is societal conditioning? Probably a hell of a lot.
The point being that making an action movie with a woman as the star
wouldn't really attract more women.
But you know who it DOES attract? Males. Especially teenage males.
Just like the 'Beautiful Babes with Big Guns' anime genre. (Dirty Pair
for example.) The main audience is male, and, in fact, most women who
have been surveyed find it unapealing or even distasteful. Alien(s)(3)
all did rather well with a young male audience. I saw the latter two
in the theatre and at con showings. The audience was always overwhelmingly
male, high school and college age. That's were the movie was coming from.
And money is what the business is about.
So, making a formula action movie with a female lead isn't the answer
if you want to strike a balance. So what IS the answer?
Why is Thelma and Louise so popular with female audiences, but not so
popular with male audiences? (I happen to love it...) Would a similar
movie with 2 guys attract a male audience?
I don't have all the answers.
> As for why they like drama and romances, well most of those movies
>will present strong female characters.
Ok, so why does Joe Average Male NOT like them? In general such films
attract an older audience, families, and women. Age of Innocence (again,
a stunning film) certainly didn't do well with young males. However, I
know a number of women my age who went. And the theatre when I went
reflected that.
There are no simple answers.
> But it is still slow.
> Hopefully it will speed up.
Yes, and hopefully the same goes for the nets. As it is now women are
subject to mistreatment by a lot of jerks. I have a few friends who
had to change their accounts because of unwanted email. Every year
women get rashes of 'talk' requests. *I've* received 'wannafucks' after
posting on alt.sex from horny, immature guys who couldn't be bothered to
read long enough to realize I wasn't female. As it is now women are
conspicuous because of the numerical imbalance. The only solution for
that is an evening out of the numbers.
Or getting rid of all the jerks, which is no mean task.
Stainless Steel Rat
MegaZone> Yes, and hopefully the same goes for the nets. As it is now
MegaZone> women are subject to mistreatment by a lot of jerks. I have a
MegaZone> few friends who had to change their accounts because of unwanted
MegaZone> email. Every year women get rashes of 'talk' requests.
Just to add my own little annecdote to this one. A friend of mine has three
IDs on America On-line, his "regular" account and two "game" aliases. One
of the game aliases is male, the other female. And he routinely gets heaps
of mail in the "female" persona account just like this. Why? Because the
first three characters of the ID are "Mz."
MegaZone> *I've* received 'wannafucks' after posting on alt.sex from horny,
MegaZone> immature guys who couldn't be bothered to read long enough to
MegaZone> realize I wasn't female.
Nope, never happened to me :). But I've several female friends who don't
want their full names in their user names or gcos info, to avoid
harrassment.
[...]
MegaZone> Or getting rid of all the jerks, which is no mean task.
Ah, if it were only possible...
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | "Oh, did I mention that they're Howling,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | Flying, Righteous, Fire-breathing Berserk
this space intentionally left blank | Mammoths?" --Dixie
gail...@vax.sbu.ac.uk
I think so to! You have my vote.
Eric Tolle
>>>>>> "MegaZone" == MegaZone <mega...@obsidian.WPI.EDU> writes:
>Nope, never happened to me :). But I've several female friends who don't
>want their full names in their user names or gcos info, to avoid
>harrassment.
>[...]
>MegaZone> Or getting rid of all the jerks, which is no mean task.
>Ah, if it were only possible...
As an add to this, several of my female friends have had to deal with
assorted forms of harrassment at anime clubs (not to name any names)
ranging from guys talking (apparently) at the woments breasts, to sexual
jokes to outright 'offers' to go to bed with them.
It makes sense really. Part of the definition of 'Otaku' is having no
social skills and a view of women that's juvenile at best.
As the perfect example I quote from a woman friend:
"In one room the were watching Wandering Kid, in another, Cream Lemon, and
in the center they were wondering why the coulden't get more women to
go to their club."
A true story. Sheesh!
Eric Tolle Unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
"I'll make it _real simple_. 'Otaku' is an INSULT! Got it?"
Stainless Steel Rat
Eric> As the perfect example I quote from a woman friend:
Eric> "In one room the were watching Wandering Kid, in another, Cream
Eric> Lemon, and in the center they were wondering why the coulden't get
Eric> more women to go to their club."
I've seen that kind of thing, and not just recently, too. One of the
reasons I don't bother with the BJS anymore.
[...]
Eric> "I'll make it _real simple_. 'Otaku' is an INSULT! Got it?"
Heh. I like it.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | I don't care; I want the Green Ranger's
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | flute!
S.G. Hagen
MegaZone <mega...@obsidian.WPI.EDU> wrote:
[snip]
>
>Why does a person have to worry about it? I'm not normal and I don't.
But people do. They probably shouldn't but they do.
>
[snip]
>
>The larger the target group, the broader the stereotypes. And therefore
>the less 'normal' an individual member will be. But it is still the only
>effective tool in dealing with large groups. A studio can't target Bob
>over on Elm Street, they have to rely on statisical norms.
Yes, we automatically use stereotypes, we do it without thinking and
you are right, we have to, it would be nearly impossible not to. The
point I'm trying to make it that in the case of people perhaps we
shouldn't do it automatically but take a moment to think about it, to
decide if the people all do neatly fit within the stereotypes.
Business won't in all likelihood, we can.
[snip]
>
>>females learn differently. Even if it is true it is being used as an excuse.
>>Why are there more males in technology courses in the universities?
>>Becasue males and females learn differently.
>
>It depends on your approach. Yes, it can be used as an excuse. But
>would you ignore it due to that? That is dumb. You still need to address
>the point in order to change the fact. Or it won't change.
Okay, you are right, it shouldn't be ignored. On the other hand
whenever someone finds a difference between males and females in the
human species a big thing is made of it. It makes it seem like the
differences are huge when often they are quite small but people don't
appreciate that. The normal curves for males and females in many cases,
ahd who knows, perhaps all of them, almost completley overlap.
>
[snip]
>> Ah, the melting pot theory. Give up your individuality, become
part of
>>the whole. Makes glad to have learned the value of a cultural mosaic.
>
>That is *NOT* what I said.
My aplogies then. I'm sorry.
[snip]
>
>So, making a formula action movie with a female lead isn't the answer
>if you want to strike a balance. So what IS the answer?
>
>Why is Thelma and Louise so popular with female audiences, but not so
>popular with male audiences? (I happen to love it...) Would a similar
>movie with 2 guys attract a male audience?
Thelma and Louise showed two woman who were not this character's
wife, or this character's girlfriend or this character's mother. They
were themselves, not defined by anything else, especially not defined by
their relationship to a male character. Everything they did they did for
themselves or each other. It was a great movie. THe second time I saw it
I caught it at a double feature with La Femme Nakita, another great
female lead, IMHO.
As for a similar movie with male characters, it was called Butch
Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, and if I remember correctly it did fairly
well so I guess the male audience liked it a lot.
>
>I don't have all the answers.
Who does?
>
[snip]
>
>Or getting rid of all the jerks, which is no mean task.
That would be very nice, a pipe dream I think but still a nice one.
Okay, in an attempt to drag this back into familiar waters, perhaps
kicking a screaming all the way, it seems that anime has managed to
present strong female characters as the leads in the action adventure
genre rather sucessfully.
Shows like Bubblegum Crisis, Silent Mobius and Gall Force are examples.
Even those with out a cast of main characters who are all female often
present strong females.
I always liked the fact that in Riding Bean Rally was the more
mercenary and hard nosed of the two while Bean was the soft touch with a
soft spot for kids.
Also Lodoss Wars had Deedrit being a much better swordsperson than
Parn, at least at the beggining, (personally I feel at the end they were
both masters of their own weapons). Anyone else find it interesting that
where ever they went everyone want to practice with Parn but no one was
willing to go a few practice bouts with Deeerit? I guess they were afraid
of her.
Ja.
Myra Wong
>Look around you, Carmen. How many other females do you know who
>are big BGC fans, or anime fans for that matter? How many males?
I'll try to be real quiet about this. I'm female, I'm an anime fan.
Heck, I just had the best time at AnimeExpo. Among those attending,
about 5%-10% female. Not necessarily bad -- and hey, I'm used to
it by now.
--
--
Myra Wong : "Ayukawa Madoka" : mkw...@ucsd.edu : Secretary 1994-1995
Cal-Animage Beta Chapter, Japanese Animation Club at U. C. San Diego
"hitotsu no ai ni inochi sae nage-dasu toki ga hoshii no" --"JENIINA"
Myra Wong
>I hate to jump into this thread with a rather uncomfortable observation, but...
Well, I've got another observation to point out.
>A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
>some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
>towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
that they'll know how to deal with females?
That's really scary to think about.
I hope that most male anime fans are beyond the above described
activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
otaku who don't know.
Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
Phil Kamisama Yee
>james Steven Leek (jsl...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
>
>
>: Hmmm the only Female Otoku I know is 7 years old. ^_^
>
>There are many girls in the Anime Expo, too.
Tell me about it H_H
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I Phillip "Kamisama" Yee phi...@ranma.stanford.edu I
-----------------------------------------------------------
twi
>
>I'll try to be real quiet about this. I'm female, I'm an anime fan.
>Heck, I just had the best time at AnimeExpo. Among those attending,
>about 5%-10% female. Not necessarily bad -- and hey, I'm used to
>it by now.
>
I know what you mean, I am also a female anime fan. And I am used to it
too. In fact, I kinda like having the majority of the anime fans around be
male. A few years ago I went to the WonderCon in the San Francisco Bay Area,
(for comic books, alas it was before I was really into anime, though now when
I look through my programs from the event, I see they had anime screenings,
Including stuff like Ranma, etc. If only I knew!!) and the situation sounds
similar to that of AnimeExpo. Most of the people attending the event were male.
but I still had a great time, I mean hey, there were GUYS as far as the eye
can see! Kinda cool to see wall-to-wall guys =8v) *grin* Now if only I can
scrape up the money to go to an anime-based con *dreams* Or maybe get a LD
player... *wistful sigh*
Emily, and the big lizard she's attached to, Varuga.
<ifb...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Myra Wong
>james Steven Leek (jsl...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
>: Hmmm the only Female Otoku I know is 7 years old. ^_^
>There are many girls in the Anime Expo, too.
MANY? Hardly.
I was far outnumbered everywhere I went. Not to mention, the only
female in the karaoke contest.
--
Myra Wong : "Ayukawa Madoka" : mkw...@ucsd.edu : Secretary 1994-1995
Cal-Animage Beta Chapter, Japanese Animation Club at U. C. San Diego
"hitotsu no ai ni inochi sae nage-dasu toki ga hoshii no" --"JENIINA"
(I want a chance to sacrifice even my life for one love) Kimagure Orange Road
Enrique Conty
: In article <2v400r$k...@garuda.csulb.edu>, Freddy Chan <khc...@csulb.edu> wrote:
: >There are many girls in the Anime Expo, too.
: Tell me about it H_H
* Conty lets PhilYee have it with Priss's railgun from BGC: Grand Mal #4.
That is *exactly* the kind of behaviour we're complaining about here:
- See otaku.
- See otaku see human female anime fan.
- See otaku drool incontrobably.
Ryo-oh-ki Lee
:>A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
:>some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
:>towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
:
:And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
:that they'll know how to deal with females?
*confused* You're expecting anime to have educational value??? ^_^;
:That's really scary to think about.
A Japanese version of Barney is even scarier...! ^_^;;
:I hope that most male anime fans are beyond the above described
:activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
:worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
:otaku who don't know.
:
:Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
___/^_^\___ Eugene Lee ryo-...@tamu.edu
Chris Krolczyk
: I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
Apples and oranges, dude. Some otaku are just as obnoxious as frat brats,
albeit in a different fashion altogether.
Chris Krolczyk
: krol...@MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk) writes:
: >I hate to jump into this thread with a rather uncomfortable observation, but...
: Well, I've got another observation to point out.
: >A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
: >some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
: >towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
: And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
: that they'll know how to deal with females?
: That's really scary to think about.
Eh. The day anime is used to teach _anybody_ "social skills" will be a
strange day indeed...
: I hope that most male anime fans are beyond the above described
: activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
: worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
: otaku who don't know.
Yup. See, it's not so much that every single otaku is a yo-yo who insists
on making rude "homina homina homina" comments about attractive female
fans at cons. The problem is that when a group of fandom is so dominated
by male fans as anime is, it must get _real_ uncomfortable for the ones
who bother to show up at meetings or cons only to get harassed by some of
the scumbags. When I see attractive women at cons, I keep the comments
where they belong-i.e., to myself.
(Of course, I go to mainstream SF cons for the most part, so women are far
from being a small minority. It also might be noted that some of them
will whack you with something if you decide to get especially rude with
your public proclamations of lust. Whatever...)
: Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
I hate to tell you this, but anime fanboys are (for the most part) like
any other fanboy-they're so wrapped up in their little hobby-bag that
they don't understand (or even know the existence of) the consequences
of obnoxious social behavior. Not all do, mind you-let's not get too
stereotypical here-but some fanboys shouldn't be allowed in cons or
meetings. Some of 'em are that bad.
Leung_Gerald
>Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
<Quickly and efficiently, the male otakus march to the tune of the flute like
the lambs that they are, willingly sacrificing they're bubblegum brains to
the cause of their evil master . . .>
YES! We all want to be like this! HAHAHAHA! We are ignorant fools and the
time has come for our bells to toll!
Hmm . . . Some otakus were harassing a female? Bad . . .
I have found anime to be rather educational, well more indirectly than directly.
Concerning how to deal with females, anime hasn't taught me that much. Thus,
my behavior towards females hasn't changed that much. At best I learn about
what kinds of things they're interested in when I watch anime that target
female audiences. Actually, I learn about what the anime makers think females
are interested in when I watch anime that targets female audiences.
For the female otakus out there, do you really think that what is put into
for-females anime is what females are really interested in?
GL
Tony Chen
: In <2v7th8$3...@Venus.mcs.com> co...@MCS.COM (Enrique Conty) writes:
:
: >denizen of chaos (ako...@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: >:
: >: Just a minute here...are you laboring under the assumption that women
: >: in the United States do not like science fiction or action, or even, for
: >: that matter ecchi stuff?
:
Btw, could you post something, anything in the shoujo ML? It's in such
a sorry state now (meaning empty). For starter, what's the new shoujo
manga Viz are going to publish?
: >Certainly not. But the large majority of
: >fans of such themes over here are male.
:
: CS- Well, when what does that make me? Chopped liver? Rare? A freak of
: nature?
:
That makes you the minority, that's all.
Mind you, there's nothing wrong in being a minority.
Just like anime fan in US is a minority compared to the total population
in US. And that doesn't make anime fan a freak, right? Oh wait, maybe
that's not a good example afterall. :)
Reminded of all the strange posts in the Otaku thread, here's..
"ANIME-MANGA FOREVER!"
Tony.
Leung_Gerald
twi <ifb...@huey.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>similar to that of AnimeExpo. Most of the people attending the event were male.
>but I still had a great time, I mean hey, there were GUYS as far as the eye
>can see! Kinda cool to see wall-to-wall guys =8v) *grin*
Heh, heh!
If I'm going to be called hentai because one of the things I appreciate
about anime is the prettily-drawn girls, I'll reserve the right to say
this:
"Hentai onna!" ^_^
GL
Connie Cho
[lots of interesting dialogue deleted]
>present strong female characters as the leads in the action adventure
>genre rather sucessfully.
> Shows like Bubblegum Crisis, Silent Mobius and Gall Force are examples.
Many anime have female leads, and they tend to be strong. They also
tend to be 1)rather young 2)presented in a vaguely sexist manner.
Oh, sexist IMHO. But then, I was raised in the West, so the apparent
dichotomy is somewhat unsettling. I think it is the youth factor which
bothers me most, actually. Gratuitous shower scenes with very young teenagers
(16, 17? Lin Minmei and Nene) I find unsettling, whereas it didn't bother
me in the slightest, for example, when Chirien (sp?) cavorted in Battle Angel
(except that I pitied her desperation) This is esp. so considering
how young emotionally in many ways Minmei and Nene are characterized.
Granted, they are only dyes on celluloid, but they surely remind me of
flesh and blood units I know.
Incidentally, you forgot one tough female- Jeena Malso of AD Police Files.
Now that is a strong character, male or female; in fact, I rather thought
her gender somewhat incidental to her character. I also thought that
she most comfortably integrated the issues. But then, this is also a more
recent anime, no? Very interesting episode, #1, in these terms, considering
the treatment of the female boomers. AD Police Files is definitely a series
I could keep watching if they were availabe.
I am curious, though, what is 'anime for women' and 'anime for men'?
Sorry, I can't recall the Japanese terms. What are the genera themes?
I hope it isn't like the dreck they passed off as 'girl's cartoons' on
Saturday mornings. I hated Jem and her stupid crew with a passion, and
couldn't believe the sh*t they were filling into young girls; I would
vastly prefer my hypothetical daughter to watch anime with me than that
moose hockey. Urk, even thinking about it gives me hives.
Me- I personally like action films, sci-fi; I in fact don't like ones like
Thelma & Louise. But why stereotype movies? Action movies need emotion too;
one of my all time favorite movies is Blade Runner
(hmm, no wonder I like ADP Files! very similar in tone) precisely because
it was a action flick with pathos (Roy Batty's futile attempts to survive)
My closest female friends are the same, but then, we also played D&D
together :) And we were definitely in the minority.
Alan Ezust
Ryo-oh-ki Lee <eug...@cs.tamu.edu> wrote:
>In article <70...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, Myra Wong <mkw...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>:krol...@MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk) writes:
>:>A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
>:>some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
>:>towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
>:
>:And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
>:that they'll know how to deal with females?
>
>*confused* You're expecting anime to have educational value??? ^_^;
>
>:That's really scary to think about.
>
>:activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
>:worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
>:otaku who don't know.
SUBTLE? Hey, what about the very un-subtle messages you get from movies
like Fist of the North Star (Only the Strong can have women, as they have
to protect the ones they love), or maybe Legend of the Overfeind
("Excellent. It's been a long time since I had some good PUSSY!")...
I recommend that people who are only fully developed mentally and
emotionally start watching Anime films. Those that are too impressionable
should stick to saturday morning cartoons.
>:Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
>
>I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
yah, and imagine if all these "geeky" otaku start acting like Shin in
FotNS!
--
| Alan Ezust ez...@iro.umontreal.ca Montreal, Quebec, Canada |
|---------- Universite de Montreal Departement d'informatique -----------|
"Recursion is a lot like recursion, only a little simpler." -Alan Ezust
Melinda Miller
*sigh* Um, let's start with the above comment: I really don't like
being though of as a member of an "ever-elusive and endangered species."
It make me feel hunted.... (Ka-chan, kowai yo!) Honestly folks, there are
many females who both read and _post_ on this newsgroup. In fact, if
you poke around long enough, I'm sure someone can turn up a list complete
with e-mail addresses and "three sizes" lurking around here. Okay, the
"three sizes" comment may be going a little too far, but...
And as for why the atmostphere is uncomfortable, I can only drag out
the old example of a club a couple of friends of mine attended. At this
club they were showing _Wandering Kid_ in one room, and _Urutsukidouju_
in the other, and the few not drooling in one room or the other were sitting
around wondering why there weren't any girls in the club. Yeah, that's just
an anime club, but look at the subject lines sometime around here, and notice
just how many of them have to do with drooling over various anime "babes".
Not exactly something sure to attrack the female audience.
Oh, and pu-lease don't assume that only disucssions pertaining to
"shoujo" anime will interest females. The hentai stuff is a dead turn-off
(get serious-- if I wanted to see a naked girl, I'd stand in front of
the mirror with my clothes off) _most of the time_, but just about
anything else seems to be fair game.
And a small point of ettiquette: I cannot name a single female anime
fan I know who likes being called "otaku". Face it, it is slightly
deragatory in Japanese, and most of the female fans I know happen to know
enough Japanese to appreciate the difference.
And a last note from a female who does actually post semi-regularly, and
is getting tired of watching this sort of thread start up once every other
month or so: Can someone please just archive the next "where are the girls
on this group?" thread, and just mail it to the next guy who asks?
My question for the group is: What's the big deal if there are females
reading the group or not? Is this a boys' only club, are you making sure
that you don't say anything to offend the "weaker sex"'s feelings, or
what? I'm just curious, because I've been a long-time reader of this
group, and have noticed in the past couple of years this thread keeps
coming up again and again, about once every other month, and I wonder why.
--
Melinda Miller
sanj...@netcom.com
-------------------------
"He talks to demons. The demons talk back. ... Good guy to have with
you on your next trip to Hell. He speaks the language."
From _Shards_of_Honor_ by Lois McMaster Bujold
Melinda Miller
>Celia Stingray (ce...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: In <2v7th8$3...@Venus.mcs.com> co...@MCS.COM (Enrique Conty) writes:
>Look around you, Carmen. How many other females do you know who
>are big BGC fans, or anime fans for that matter? How many males?
>I know it's not how things should be, but it's how things are.
>I think we should do something about it, don't you agree?
I think the first thing to do about it is to stop this nonsensical idea
that there are almost no female fans, and what few there are do not like
the action/sci-fi/whatever stuff, and only like the romances. I am so
sick and tired of being told that most of the anime that is out or is
translated will not appeal to me because I am female. Excuse me, that is
just not even close. There are many things that appeal to me, and not
all of them are of the genre that is "supposed" to appeal to females.
And to answer your question about BGC, just about every female anime fan I
know likes the series, which is more than I can say about the males I know.
Yes, the number of males outnumber the number of females, but that is only
because the total number of females in anime is less than the total number
of males in anime.
And just as an aside, I would like to assert the odd point of view that
perhaps there would be more female anime fans if people would _stop_ asking
if there are any "girls" on this group, and if people would stop treating
them as if they were really rare, and either put them on a pedestal or
drool over them. Us. (this is not an abstract concept I'm discussing here,
is it? :) I get both attitudes on a regular basis, and both annoy me and
make me feel uncomfortable. And it's a basic fact of human nature (male
or felame, for all their touted differences) that no one is going to stick
around somewhere where they feel uncomfortabel unless they get something
they really want out of it.
Oh, and a subtle point on how to win the girls: If you want to impress
females, absolutely _DO NOT_ keep putting together lists of the "addresses of
the females on rec.arts.anime" (yes, I have seen such things floating around)
Seriously, think about stuff for a while folks, and think about how you
would want to be treated. Certainly don't go treating someone in a way
that you yourself would not want to be treated!
--
Melinda Miller
sanj...@netcom.com
***************************************************************************
"It's a wind reminicent of home, pleasant and calming. Hell's wind,
a mixture of putrefying flesh and blood." -Hiei, _Yuu*Yuu*Hakusho_
Melinda Miller
>>>>>> "MegaZone" == MegaZone <mega...@obsidian.WPI.EDU> writes:
>MegaZone> Yes, and hopefully the same goes for the nets. As it is now
>MegaZone> women are subject to mistreatment by a lot of jerks. I have a
>MegaZone> few friends who had to change their accounts because of unwanted
>MegaZone> email. Every year women get rashes of 'talk' requests.
>Just to add my own little annecdote to this one. A friend of mine has three
>IDs on America On-line, his "regular" account and two "game" aliases. One
>of the game aliases is male, the other female. And he routinely gets heaps
>of mail in the "female" persona account just like this. Why? Because the
>first three characters of the ID are "Mz."
Given this, would people believe me when I say that there are more females
on the net than a quick glance would reflect? Many females I know don't
post specifically *because* they get harrased on the net. In my own
personal experience, I pointedly choose login names that are fairly
ambiguous unless you know the context after getting a few too many annoying
fanboys bugging me when my login was "umadoka" (the 'u' was stuck there
by the school...). Stereotypes aside, this sort of behavior drives females
off the net faster than a greased banana peal.
Yuhsaku Godai [Ronin]
Not exactly sure what main themes are in shojo but it seems to include at
least some sort of romance in it, like unrequitted love or whatever. You
might wanna pick up the new (?) shojo manga released by Viz called Promise
which according to Protoculture Addicts #28 contains two stories which are
"a far stretch from the usual boys manga we have been exposed to so far
in North America. Both are sensitive, gut wrenching and touching, and
very little action does occur between the first and the last page. Both
are excellent reading material and will leave only the coldest hearts
unmoved."
"Since You've Been Gone" - some young lonely girl avoids relationships and
experiences family problems until a mysterious young man enters her life
and makes her realize that she, at least, has life, something her twin
brother, who died at birth, might envy her.
"Promise" - the tale of a man and his mistress spending time together behind
the man's wife's back, while the wife herself - a tragic character if
there ever was one - holds on to a purse her husband bought her, even at
the risk of her own life.
-Ben
--
Melinda Miller
>In article <70...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, Myra Wong <mkw...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>:
>:And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
>:that they'll know how to deal with females?
>*confused* You're expecting anime to have educational value??? ^_^;
Actually, yes. Take a look and you will find that there is a lot of
anime that is trying to teach social values. Ever wondered about the
predominence of the "giving one's all for one's friends" theme that shows
up all the time? What does that say about Japanese society? Seriously,
look around, and you will find a lot of educational themes, subtle or
otherwise.
>:That's really scary to think about.
>A Japanese version of Barney is even scarier...! ^_^;;
/me runs away in terror!
>:I hope that most male anime fans are beyond the above described
>:activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
>:worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
>:otaku who don't know.
>:
>:Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
>I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
Actually, in my experience, there is frequently little difference. Okay,
the "geeky" otaku may talk about something that I am a little more
interested in, but the "macho" frat boys usually have a littl better of
a come-on line (only a little better, mind...) Either way, you have someone
who is viewing you pretty much only as an easy lay, which does not make
one feel really great. Or appreciated. Or like they want to hang around
without an escort, or a large amount of automatic weaponry....
Melinda Miller
>For the female otakus out there, do you really think that what is put into
>for-females anime is what females are really interested in?
Like what? Sailor Moon? Vampire Princess Miyu? Koko wa Greenwood? What
are some other great shoujo series? (Arin, help me out! :) What I think is
put into for-females anime is more often than not what someone in business
*thinks* is what will appeal to females, and will not necessarily. I'll
tell you for me personally, *none* of the "magical girls" series appeal
to me, and I can't see how they would to just about any sane female over
the age of about 8. But that's just my opinion. Hey, my favorite series
is a shounen one!
My point being: I think this whole thing about certain genres appealing
only to certain genders is silly, and shows that someone has not woken up
and smelled the coffee yet this decade. There are for-female shows that
appeal to many males (tell me that in the US Greenwood doesn't have a larger
male than female audience!), and there are for-male shows that have big
female followings. So what's the deal with differentiating which "appeals"
to which gender?
Dennis Grant
In article <sanjiyanC...@netcom.com> sanj...@netcom.com (Melinda Miller) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]
> My question for the group is: What's the big deal if there are females
> reading the group or not? Is this a boys' only club, are you making sure
> that you don't say anything to offend the "weaker sex"'s feelings, or
> what? I'm just curious, because I've been a long-time reader of this
> group, and have noticed in the past couple of years this thread keeps
> coming up again and again, about once every other month, and I wonder why.
>
social life, can't relate to real people geek" Then they don't get a lot of
opposite sex contact/interaction. (Except "buzz off, nerd!) :)
A female counterpart would seem to be an otaku's dream come true.
Also, the net offers anonimity, so they can approach members of the opposite
sex without having to deal with a visual first impression.
I personally don't care what sex you are/are not, as long as you are
contributing to the discussion.
> --
> Melinda Miller
> sanj...@netcom.com
>
> -------------------------
> "He talks to demons. The demons talk back. ... Good guy to have with
> you on your next trip to Hell. He speaks the language."
>
> From _Shards_of_Honor_ by Lois McMaster Bujold
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Grant Amiga 4000/030/6/120/40Mhz '882/IDEK 17" monitor
dgr...@bud.peinet.pe.ca 1977 Trans Am SE 6.6l Slalom and drag king
Charlottetown, PEI, Canada There ain't no replacement for cubic displacement
Enrique Conty
: I think the first thing to do about it is to stop this nonsensical idea
: that there are almost no female fans
That is not what I said.
: Yes, the number of males outnumber the number of females, but that is only
: because the total number of females in anime is less than the total number
: of males in anime.
That is what I said. Now, I'm told that over "there" (Japan), the ratios
are more or less equal. I think that is the way things should be here as
well. After all, we have access to the same anime, do we not?
: Seriously, think about stuff for a while folks, and think about how you
: would want to be treated. Certainly don't go treating someone in a way
: that you yourself would not want to be treated!
*Exactly*. What women want is the same as what men want is the same as
everyone in the world wants: to be treated with *RESPECT*.
Now, the only thing left to do is find a way to teach this to one of those
slobbering otaku who think Urotsukidoji is the greatest anime ever made...
twi
Melinda Miller <sanj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>ger...@chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>
>>For the female otakus out there, do you really think that what is put into
>>for-females anime is what females are really interested in?
>
> Like what? Sailor Moon? Vampire Princess Miyu? Koko wa Greenwood? What
>are some other great shoujo series? (Arin, help me out! :) What I think is
>put into for-females anime is more often than not what someone in business
>*thinks* is what will appeal to females, and will not necessarily. I'll
>tell you for me personally, *none* of the "magical girls" series appeal
>to me, and I can't see how they would to just about any sane female over
>the age of about 8. But that's just my opinion. Hey, my favorite series
>is a shounen one!
> My point being: I think this whole thing about certain genres appealing
>only to certain genders is silly, and shows that someone has not woken up
>and smelled the coffee yet this decade. There are for-female shows that
>appeal to many males (tell me that in the US Greenwood doesn't have a larger
>male than female audience!), and there are for-male shows that have big
>female followings. So what's the deal with differentiating which "appeals"
>to which gender?
>
rather I mean the gender classing of anime fans in their tastes (ie female
anime fans should/only like shouho and males should/only like shonen)
of anime. As you can tell by the posts by various anime fans on here (otaku
and non-otaku alike) that tastes vary. While Melinda doesn't like the
"magical girls" series, I happen to really enjoy all of them. Last time I
checked, I was female, and I am over 8 (granted I'm only 19, but I'm feeling
older every day =8v) ) And I certainly hope I am sane! I also like most of
the mecha type anime as well as shoujo anime stories. Heck, I pretty much like
all types of anime except for the ultra-violent,bloody, sexually explicit
ones like Urotskidoji or Guy. (Though in my opinion Guy has to be one of the
most gorgeous male anime characters around! Too bad he's in those stories...)
And most of the female anime enthusiasts I know also like "magical girl" series
, etc. It is all just a matter of personal tastes. =)
__________\________
/ \
/ | Emily and her pet dinosaur Varuga.
/ | <ifb...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
| /\/ \/\/ \ \ \/ | "It's probably just some local fisherman
\ / \\ ^ ^ ||/ \ | out for a pleasure cruise...at night...
\ / | ( () || | | through eel-infested waters...."
\| / ||_/ | --_The Princess Bride_
| D \ | | /\
\ ___/ / | |___ ___ / \
\__________/ |// \ ___ / \/ /_
|_ ____| | |/ \| |\ /
______| V |_\___/| |\___/ \/
/ | | \___/
"Man, today was more hectic than the closing theme to _Dragon Half_."
S.G. Hagen
Alan Ezust <ez...@IRO.UMontreal.CA> wrote:
>
>SUBTLE? Hey, what about the very un-subtle messages you get from movies
>like Fist of the North Star (Only the Strong can have women, as they have
>to protect the ones they love), or maybe Legend of the Overfeind
>("Excellent. It's been a long time since I had some good PUSSY!")...
>
>I recommend that people who are only fully developed mentally and
>emotionally start watching Anime films. Those that are too impressionable
>should stick to saturday morning cartoons.
And saturday morning cartoons don't have un-subtle messages in them?
S.Hagen
Gordon Waters
>>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Tolle <unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu> writes:
>Eric> "In one room the were watching Wandering Kid, in another, Cream
>Eric> Lemon, and in the center they were wondering why the coulden't get
>Eric> more women to go to their club."
>I've seen that kind of thing, and not just recently, too. One of the
>reasons I don't bother with the BJS anymore.
Huh.
One thing I have always been proud of my compardres at Anime-X
here for is that we have _NEVER HAVE_, _WILL NOT_ and probably _NEVER WILL_
show anything like Cream Lemon, Urotsikidoji, Wandering kid, etc.
at a meeting! Way to go, Lloyd and Dave and all...
Anime-X... the Civilized anime club of the Lost Generation ^_^
Regards,
Gordon.
--
///THE CODE NAME IS / To Join DP Mail.List:lios!lovely-an...@cs.ubc.ca
//LOVELY ANGEL... // ~//~~\\ // //~\\ ~~//~ \\ / //~\\ /|| // //~\\
/Gordon Waters //// // // // //__// // \\/ //__// /--|| // //__//
gwa...@crl.com // _//__// // // \\ // // // / || // // \\
Christina Callihan
>>>>>> "MegaZone" == MegaZone <mega...@obsidian.WPI.EDU> writes:
>MegaZone> Yes, and hopefully the same goes for the nets. As it is now
>MegaZone> women are subject to mistreatment by a lot of jerks. I have a
>MegaZone> few friends who had to change their accounts because of unwanted
>MegaZone> email. Every year women get rashes of 'talk' requests.
>Just to add my own little annecdote to this one. A friend of mine has three
>IDs on America On-line, his "regular" account and two "game" aliases. One
>of the game aliases is male, the other female. And he routinely gets heaps
>of mail in the "female" persona account just like this. Why? Because the
>first three characters of the ID are "Mz."
Yep......I don't even answer talk requests anymore unless I recognize the
address of the person on the other end. It's kind of a shame, since most
of them are probably perfectly nice people, and I'm probably ignoring some
people whose addresses I have simply forgotten, but I've had enough twits
asking me about my bust size and "preferences" to cure me of accepting chat
requests from people I don't know. Not to mention the desperate local jerks
who want to meet in person. God, what a way to get a date......
To bring this back to anime, yes, I've been to one or two meetings of clubs
where the male members immediately start talking to my chest, and yes, it
is extremely off-putting. I can see where some woman new to anime would
run screaming away as a result. Now obviously, not _all_ male anime fans
are this bad (I should know, I'm dating one. :), but I have met a surprising
number who seem to think that women are these strange, incomprehensible
alien beings. Come _on_ guys, we're not that difficult to understand!
I have a favorite story on this subject; apologies to those of you who have
seen it before. :) A (female) friend and I were wandering through AnimeCon
'91's artist ghetto when we came upon a table full of _extremely_
suggestive and cheesecakey artwork. How cheesecakey? Let's just say that
Nadia _never_ had tits that big in the anime. We asked the artist (an
individual who embodied the worst qualities of the phrase *geeky fanboy*)
why there were no well-built males in his portfolio. In short, WHERE WAS
THE BEEF?
A patronizing look. "I _am_ a guy. Why would I want to draw men?"
"Maybe to attract some women customers to your table?"
He was thunderstruck. The idea had never occurred to him. We left him
pondering this strange new concept.
To sum up, a few tips for you guys who might like to see more women in this
hobby: Treat us like the fellow human beings we are. Don't try to
pigeonhole us, or "figure us out" as if we were some kind of different
species. Don't use the differences between men and women as an excuse to
ignore who we are. And if you want to know what kind of anime we would like
to see, ferchrissakes _ask_ us! Simple.
And adding a little beefcake to the lineups in con anime rooms and club
showings wouldn't hurt, either. ;)
Pax,
_______________________________________________________________________________
If You Know What | Christina M. Callihan | Doing STRANGE THINGS
You're Doing, | AKA C-chan, Bwee, Chrystal- | in the name of ART,
It's Not | Elf & Who Knows What Else | and STRANGER THINGS
Research! | c-c...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu | in the name of CHOCOLATE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When life gets weird, the weird get a life. :)
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U.C.S.B. doesn't even know that _I_ exist, let alone my opinions!
Christina Callihan
>Heh, heh!
>"Hentai onna!" ^_^
*chuckle* I think for this situation, "sukebe" is more accurate then
"hentai". YES, WOMEN HAVE HORMONES TOO, GUYS! Show less Cream Lemon and
more Yuu Yuu Hakushou or some of the cute-guys-in-armor shows (_guys_
naked in the shower! Rad concept! ;) at your club showings and who knows
what might happen?
Melinda Miller
>Melinda Miller (sanj...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Yes, the number of males outnumber the number of females, but that is only
>: because the total number of females in anime is less than the total number
>: of males in anime.
>That is what I said. Now, I'm told that over "there" (Japan), the ratios
>are more or less equal. I think that is the way things should be here as
>well. After all, we have access to the same anime, do we not?
"We" meaning the fans in the US as opposed to the fans in Japan, or "we"
males vs. females? Either way I would debate your point. I think I will
not bother to elaborate on how fans in the US don't have access to anime the
same way as fans in Japan; that observation is fairly obvious. But in the
US, most fans are stuck with watching what is either dubbed or subtitled.
At least half of what is being brought over by the professionals is trash
along the lines of Urutsukidouji. Not exactly likely to attract females
there... There are a few things such as BGC and Gunmm that would not
disgust a female audience (that statement is a generalization and I realize
it, by the way), but there are not that many. And of the specifically
shoujo series, the only ones I can think of that are professionally translated
are Miyu and Arslaan Wars. There is more variety in the fan subtitled stuff,
but the way to get ahold of that sort of stuff is to know someone who knows
how to get it (for the most part). And that involves dealing with some
annoying otaku. If I was new to the hobby, I might very well not even
bother. And I suspect given this, a lot of females *don't* bother.
>: Seriously, think about stuff for a while folks, and think about how you
>: would want to be treated. Certainly don't go treating someone in a way
>: that you yourself would not want to be treated!
>*Exactly*. What women want is the same as what men want is the same as
>everyone in the world wants: to be treated with *RESPECT*.
Yup. You got it! The less female fans have to deal with guys who talk
to their breasts, and the more they can actually talk to the male fans as
*people* rather than being objects of worship, then the more female fans
are likely to show up to meetings and cons, and even (horrors) post here!
I think in a way it is a little unfair to say that in order to attrack more
females to the hobby, some males must modify their behavior. On the other
hand, that's the way it is, and the only solution is for everyone to
deal with it.
Melinda Miller
>Shojo is manga for girls. Shonen is manga for boys.
>Not exactly sure what main themes are in shojo but it seems to include at
>least some sort of romance in it, like unrequitted love or whatever.
*sigh* This is an old debate that has been beaten to death in my
opinion, and I am only adressing it here because I think that thinking there
is a specific "boys genre" and "girls genre" just leads to more division
within the community, and in the end just drives females away more. Saying
that there is "girls anime" and that to get more females into anime we need
to discuss more "girls anime" is about like saying that girls only like dolls,
and so to get more girls on this group we need to sit down and discuss Barbie
dolls. It's an intertaining generalization, but it really doesn't have much
to do with reality (I have a friend who *beheaded* her Barbie, just to give
you a comparison...)
There are many ways to generalize shoujo vs. shounen manga/anime, but
when it comes right down to it, there is no good hard-and-fast rule to
classify a manga as either. Yes, there are a lot of shoujo series that
have romance as a theme. There are also a lot of shounen series that do
too (KOR, A!MG, VGAi). In general, the best horror I find is actually all
shoujo. So what does that tell you about the target audience?
Saying that there is manga for girls and manga for boys stems from the
same sort of thinking that says that girls don't like toy trains, or toy
cars, or whatever. It is old, outdated thinking that (in my opinion) tries
to re-assert an old, outdated class model that we are well rid of. I hate
seeing it in society at large, and I really hate seeing these sorts of
attitudes comming up in my favorite hobby. I have been seeing them
more and more in the past few years than I did when I first started in
watching anime. And that scares me. What does it say about the hobby, and
society at large?
Stainless Steel Rat
Gordon> One thing I have always been proud of my compardres at Anime-X here
Gordon> for is that we have _NEVER HAVE_, _WILL NOT_ and probably _NEVER
Gordon> WILL_ show anything like Cream Lemon, Urotsikidoji, Wandering kid,
Gordon> etc. at a meeting! Way to go, Lloyd and Dave and all...
Gordon> Anime-X... the Civilized anime club of the Lost Generation ^_^
Yup, one of the strongest reasons I've distanced myself from "mainstream"
anime fandom. Well, mainstream may not be the right word, but...
Anyway, a few years back, some rather nasty political shit happened to the
BJS (I was doing a lot of work on the newsletter at the time so I was privy
to the happenings), and a lot of the really cool people who made the BJS
(formerly the Greater Boston chapter of the Star Blazers Fan Club) a great
organization left. Things ran downhill rather quickly after that. I don't
know if they even hold regular meetings/showings anymore.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | I don't care; I want the Green Ranger's
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | flute!
twi
Christina Callihan <c-c...@mcl.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>In <2vhm52$h...@agate.berkeley.edu> ger...@chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>
>>In article <2vfjq4$d...@huey.cc.utexas.edu>,
>>twi <ifb...@huey.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>>>similar to that of AnimeExpo. Most of the people attending the event were male.
>>>but I still had a great time, I mean hey, there were GUYS as far as the eye
>>>can see! Kinda cool to see wall-to-wall guys =8v) *grin*
>
>>Heh, heh!
>
>>If I'm going to be called hentai because one of the things I appreciate
>>about anime is the prettily-drawn girls, I'll reserve the right to say
>>this:
>
>>"Hentai onna!" ^_^
>
>*chuckle* I think for this situation, "sukebe" is more accurate then
>"hentai". YES, WOMEN HAVE HORMONES TOO, GUYS! Show less Cream Lemon and
>more Yuu Yuu Hakushou or some of the cute-guys-in-armor shows (_guys_
>naked in the shower! Rad concept! ;) at your club showings and who knows
>what might happen?
>
Hmmm, can you tell me what "cute-guys-in-armor" shows there are? Or
for that matter Beefcake stuff? The closest thing to a male shower scene in
an anime that wasnt one of those "tentacles" or "guns used as sexual toys"
shows was in a show like Ranma (the first confrontation between Akane and
Ranma in the bath.. heheheheh) But just as there are a ton of pretty girls
in anime, there are also a lot of good looking guys. Granted they arent shown
off to the extent the ladies are (precious few gratuitous body shots of the
men- a bare chest occasionally would be nice =) ) the male characters have a
lot of handsome fellows in their ranks. (My favorite still being Guy, even
though I don't like the type of anime he is in -sexually violent)
Oh, btw, I was wondering if someone could help me out with my replies,
I dont really know how to work this editor yet, how do I edit out parts of the
message I am replying to, and how do i get my over-sized .sig at the end of
my replies? It keeps saying it is too long and aborts my message =( Any
email replies to this would be appreciated =8v) Thanks!
__________\__________
/ \
/ | Emily and her pet Dinosaur, Varuga.
/ | <ifb...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
| /\/ \/\/ \ \ \/ _ | "It's probably just some local fisherman
\ / \\ ^ ^ ||/ \ | out for a pleasure cruise...at night...
\| | ( () || | | through eel-infested waters..."
/ ||_/ | --_The Princess Bride_
| D \ | | /\
\ ___/ / |_|__ ___ / \
\___________/ |/ \ ___ / \/ /_ "Man, today was more
|_ ____|| |/ \| |\ / hectic than the closing
_______| V |\___/| |\___/ \/ theme to _Dragon Half_!"
/ | ---\ \___/
>
Leung_Gerald
>
>>For the female otakus out there, do you really think that what is put into
>>for-females anime is what females are really interested in?
>
> Like what? Sailor Moon? Vampire Princess Miyu? Koko wa Greenwood? What
>are some other great shoujo series? (Arin, help me out! :) What I think is
>put into for-females anime is more often than not what someone in business
>*thinks* is what will appeal to females, and will not necessarily. I'll
>tell you for me personally, *none* of the "magical girls" series appeal
>to me, and I can't see how they would to just about any sane female over
>the age of about 8. But that's just my opinion. Hey, my favorite series
>is a shounen one!
"Magical girls?" Whazzat? Are there any examples of these titles?
I'm not sure I've seen or know whether what I've seen any "magical girls"
stuff . . .
> My point being: I think this whole thing about certain genres appealing
>only to certain genders is silly, and shows that someone has not woken up
>and smelled the coffee yet this decade.
Well . . . the gender thing is not so silly. American business always tries
to figure out how to make the most money. For instance, the comic book
and video game industry realizes that most of its profits come from teenage
(and age fanning out) males buying their products. Thus, some big cheese
from the upstairs of the company will put out strange comics like Barbie
and such in some hopeful attempts to turn more profits by targeting the
else-audiences. (There are many fans of other ages and such, but the main
ones are, in fact, teenage boys)
>There are for-female shows that
>appeal to many males (tell me that in the US Greenwood doesn't have a larger
>male than female audience!), and there are for-male shows that have big
>female followings. So what's the deal with differentiating which "appeals"
>to which gender?
I'm a very strong fan of Greenwood. ^_^ \/ (this is supposed to be two fingers
in the v-shape, but I don't think it looks very obvious)
The thing that makes this really confusing is that the anime audiences (both
the ones that I see personally and the ones that I hear about from others)k
are mostly males. This makes it hard to tell whether males like for-female
stuff, or whether there's just more males so, of course, for-female stuff has
a larger male audience. It also makes it hard to tell whether females really
like for-male stuff, or that they just don't like the female stuff.
So, if females are more interested in male stuff than the supposedly female
stuff (are they really), then what is that females are really looking for?
Males fans, especially here in the US, will take anything from violence to
sex to love to relationships to comedy to horror to sci-fi.
One of the female otakus I know tries to shoot down everything that doesn't
appeal to her sense of equality of the sexes.
GL
And you thought the sexual revolution was over, while it hasn't even happened
in anime. ^_^
P.S. What is this sexual revolution stuff, anyways?!
Patrick James Conley
>Shojo is manga for girls. Shonen is manga for boys.
>Not exactly sure what main themes are in shojo but it seems to include at
>least some sort of romance in it, like unrequitted love or whatever. You
>might wanna pick up the new (?) shojo manga released by Viz called Promise
>which according to Protoculture Addicts #28 contains two stories which are
>"a far stretch from the usual boys manga we have been exposed to so far
>in North America. Both are sensitive, gut wrenching and touching, and
>very little action does occur between the first and the last page. Both
>are excellent reading material and will leave only the coldest hearts
>unmoved."
>
them. They were very accurate)
All I can say is, If you can find a copy of this, BUY IT!!!!!! Then, when
you're completely blown away by it, go pound on VIZ's door fore more of this
wonderful material!! They only way they're gonna give us what we want is if
we TELL them what we want, and I (for one) want more material of this type!
Simply wonderful!!!
Stainless Steel Rat
twi> Heh you'd get more girls showing up, or at least I would anyways =)
twi> Hmmm, can you tell me what "cute-guys-in-armor" shows there are?
Saint Seiya, Shurato, Samurai Troopers come to mind.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | "Odds don't matter when Humans want
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | something bad enough." --UHED series 507
Anand Chelian
>>Shojo is manga for girls. Shonen is manga for boys.
>>Not exactly sure what main themes are in shojo but it seems to include at
>>least some sort of romance in it, like unrequitted love or whatever.
I will give you this, reincarnation is a much more common theme in "shojo"
manga than it is in shonen manga. Of course, this is no hard and fast rule
either.
> *sigh* This is an old debate that has been beaten to death in my
>opinion, and I am only adressing it here because I think that thinking there
>is a specific "boys genre" and "girls genre" just leads to more division
>within the community, and in the end just drives females away more. Saying
>that there is "girls anime" and that to get more females into anime we need
>to discuss more "girls anime" is about like saying that girls only like dolls,
>and so to get more girls on this group we need to sit down and discuss Barbie
>dolls. It's an intertaining generalization, but it really doesn't have much
>to do with reality (I have a friend who *beheaded* her Barbie, just to give
>you a comparison...)
> There are many ways to generalize shoujo vs. shounen manga/anime, but
>when it comes right down to it, there is no good hard-and-fast rule to
>classify a manga as either. Yes, there are a lot of shoujo series that
>have romance as a theme. There are also a lot of shounen series that do
>too (KOR, A!MG, VGAi). In general, the best horror I find is actually all
>shoujo. So what does that tell you about the target audience?
Too true. The best stuff falls into no certain category. For example the
Ganmu and X manga series are two of my favorites. Ganmu(Gunnm) is supposed
to be a shonen manga (by someone's obscure classification), but it has a
*very* strong female lead, and romantic elements (at least in #2, #6, and #7).
X is supposed to be shojo (after all it is done by CLAMP), however, it has
a strong male lead, and there is more violence in it than in many other
series I have seen (with the possible exception of Utorusuki Doji and related
items). People of both sexes seem to like both manga.
It is more accurate to say that there is manga that targets females, and
there is manga that targets males. I am not entirely sure which is which,
I like what I like, and what I like goes all over the place.
I think it is a matter of education, that as people are shown "good" shows
(what these are is upto others to decide, I vote for Koko wa GreenWood,
Vampire Princess Miyu, KOR, and BGC), the basic virtue of these shows will
hopefully overcome the attraction to other silly anime. Hopefully, people
will start searching for a life outside anime-manga, and will learn things,
such as how to be polite.
However, I must say that Megazone is right to some degree. Stereotypes make
life easier and possible to live. If I had to go to everyone I meet and find
out who they were, I would have no time left to do anything else. Of course
overgeneralizations exist, and saying that girls absolutely do not like some
things, or that guys absolutely do not like some things is wrong. The world
is not black and white, it is all sorts of colors, not just gray.
> Saying that there is manga for girls and manga for boys stems from the
>same sort of thinking that says that girls don't like toy trains, or toy
>cars, or whatever. It is old, outdated thinking that (in my opinion) tries
>to re-assert an old, outdated class model that we are well rid of. I hate
>seeing it in society at large, and I really hate seeing these sorts of
>attitudes comming up in my favorite hobby. I have been seeing them
>more and more in the past few years than I did when I first started in
>watching anime. And that scares me. What does it say about the hobby, and
>society at large?
I really don't want to think about what it means, however, it seems to mean
that there are more and more drooling fanboys who rave over things like
Utorusuki Doji. It means that people mean less and less to society at large
(because that is where these new fanboys are coming from). It means that
respect is becoming rarer and rarer. It means that the stuff with plot and
other good things like character development will become ever more rare as the
masses start to demand what they think anime is like. ....I definetely do not
want to think about it.
>--
>Melinda Miller
>sanj...@netcom.com
>-------------------------
> "He talks to demons. The demons talk back. ... Good guy to have with
> you on your next trip to Hell. He speaks the language."
>
> From _Shards_of_Honor_ by Lois McMaster Bujold
--
Anand Chelian | ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu
"History is made by the few, and wielded over the many."
Royden Jones
>>naked in the shower! Rad concept! ;) at your club showings and who knows
>>what might happen?
>>
> Heh you'd get more girls showing up, or at least I would anyways =)
>Hmmm, can you tell me what "cute-guys-in-armor" shows there are? Or
ones, and rather popular among females(still...anytime i try to get a copy of
the manga i have to wait for a 9-12 year old female to be done reading it..)
Shurato is another(i like this one a little more)
Yoroiden Samurai Troopers(if it wasn't for the hats..)
on a related topic are Arslaan War Record and Legend of the Galactic
Heroes, as their art style is said to be more popular among females...
-RuneSaint
Enrique Conty
: In article <2vk5rc$e...@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu>,
: Christina Callihan <c-c...@mcl.ucsb.edu> wrote:
: > YES, WOMEN HAVE HORMONES TOO, GUYS! Show less Cream Lemon and
: >more Yuu Yuu Hakushou or some of the cute-guys-in-armor shows (_guys_
: >naked in the shower! Rad concept! ;) at your club showings and who knows
: >what might happen?
:
: Hmmm, can you tell me what "cute-guys-in-armor" shows there are?
Yuu Yuu Hakusho (no armor, but cute guys).
Saint Seiya (*the* cute-guys-in-armor anime).
Yoroiden Samurai Troopers.
Shurato.
That should be a start.
``gerald#chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald)`` Internet #4527 AT 506
R 34 07/08 17:01 Internet ->1
>Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
<Quickly and efficiently, the male otakus march to the tune of the flute like
the lambs that they are, willingly sacrificing they're bubblegum brains to
the cause of their evil master . . .>
YES! We all want to be like this! HAHAHAHA! We are ignorant fools and the
time has come for our bells to toll!
Hmm . . . Some otakus were harassing a female? Bad . . .
I have found anime to be rather educational, well more indirectly than directly.
Concerning how to deal with females, anime hasn't taught me that much. Thus,
my behavior towards females hasn't changed that much. At best I learn about
what kinds of things they're interested in when I watch anime that target
female audiences. Actually, I learn about what the anime makers think females
are interested in when I watch anime that targets female audiences.
For the female otakus out there, do you really think that what is put into
for-females anime is what females are really interested in?
GL
``krolczyk#MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk)`` Internet #4130 AT 506
R 34 07/08 17:01 Internet ->1
: Well, I've got another observation to point out.
: >A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
: >some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
: >towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
: And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
: that they'll know how to deal with females?
: That's really scary to think about.
Eh. The day anime is used to teach _anybody_ "social skills" will be a
strange day indeed...
: I hope that most male anime fans are beyond the above described
: activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
: worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
: otaku who don't know.
Yup. See, it's not so much that every single otaku is a yo-yo who insists
on making rude "homina homina homina" comments about attractive female
fans at cons. The problem is that when a group of fandom is so dominated
by male fans as anime is, it must get _real_ uncomfortable for the ones
who bother to show up at meetings or cons only to get harassed by some of
the scumbags. When I see attractive women at cons, I keep the comments
where they belong-i.e., to myself.
(Of course, I go to mainstream SF cons for the most part, so women are far
from being a small minority. It also might be noted that some of them
will whack you with something if you decide to get especially rude with
your public proclamations of lust. Whatever...)
: Is this what they want to be like? or are they unaware this is happening?
I hate to tell you this, but anime fanboys are (for the most part) like
any other fanboy-they're so wrapped up in their little hobby-bag that
they don't understand (or even know the existence of) the consequences
of obnoxious social behavior. Not all do, mind you-let's not get too
stereotypical here-but some fanboys shouldn't be allowed in cons or
meetings. Some of 'em are that bad.
--
-Chris Krolczyk krol...@mcs.com
In the event you were offended by the preceding message, please don't
bother suing over it. There's better ways to waste tons of your own cash.
``krolczyk#MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk)`` Internet #4130 AT 506
R 34 07/08 17:01 Internet ->1
: I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
Apples and oranges, dude. Some otaku are just as obnoxious as frat brats,
albeit in a different fashion altogether.
Ryo-oh-ki Lee
:>In article <70...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, Myra Wong <mkw...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu> wrote:
:>:
:>:And do we expect anime to teach these otaku any social skills so
:>:that they'll know how to deal with females?
:
:>*confused* You're expecting anime to have educational value??? ^_^;
:
: Actually, yes. Take a look and you will find that there is a lot of
:anime that is trying to teach social values. Ever wondered about the
:predominence of the "giving one's all for one's friends" theme that shows
:up all the time? What does that say about Japanese society? Seriously,
:look around, and you will find a lot of educational themes, subtle or
:otherwise.
I'm not quite sure of what you mean by "educational themes". Do you mean
educational like the 1-minute trailer moral messages following each episode
of He-Man or G.I. Goe? Some shows tend to place their main charactes in an
environment surrounded by "social norm" people, and thus these kinds of
anime may appear to have educational themes by showing that the people
around the main character are "good".
It is very true that a lot of Japanese social values are portrayed in
anime, but is this done to teach its viewers these very same values?
Anime sometimes reflect the problems of Japan's restrictive social norms,
as seen in Sailor Moon. Usagi (the *main* character of the show) is a
scholastic underachiever. Ami's super-intelligence makes her peers
unfortable, and she becomes a social outcast as a result; she was
friendless until she met Usagi and became a sailor senshi. Even Makoto,
who is unusually tall for a Japanese girl, has few friends and continues
to have the negative "beanstalk" stigma attached to her. The most popular
TV series in Japan exposes some of these problems in Japanese society
(usually in a humorous fashion), but leaves the solutions up to the minds
of the viewers.
Are there lessons to be learned from any anime? I think some anime can
help people become more aware of particular issues, like politics or war
or the environment. But except for the few children's anime on Japanese
TV for children, I don't believe that the majority of anime have any
educational value whatsoever --- especially the anime that makes it to
the American markets!
:>I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
:
: Actually, in my experience, there is frequently little difference. Okay,
:the "geeky" otaku may talk about something that I am a little more
:interested in, but the "macho" frat boys usually have a littl better of
:a come-on line (only a little better, mind...) Either way, you have someone
:who is viewing you pretty much only as an easy lay, which does not make
:one feel really great. Or appreciated. Or like they want to hang around
:without an escort, or a large amount of automatic weaponry....
I think you're right that both "geeky" otaku and "macho" frat boys tend
to objectify women. It is very dehumanizing to be thought of only in
sexual terms. I think most of the former tend to worship women from afar,
while the latter tend to regard women as potential sexual conquests. But,
playing Devil's advocate, society has cruel names for guys who DON'T show
an interest in girls. It would be nice if Greek organizations ceased to
exist, but I guess even they have their rights to their beliefs... :(
___/'_'\___ Eugene Lee ryo-...@tamu.edu
Connie Cho
females vs. that for males, but that made me wonder. In NA I think
the boundaries of girlstuff vs. boystuff are more indistinct, but what
about in Japan? Anime is created primarily for the Japanese audience, no?
Does that audience expect the distinct division between girlstuff and boystuff,
and more to the point, does that audience *want* that division?
What about a series such as KOR? Is it targeted at a general audience?
Such ratings, if you will, in a way would be similar to what Disney does,
with its animated divsion (read: kids ok) and with its Touchstone
(more adult material)
Melinda Miller
>>>more Yuu Yuu Hakushou or some of the cute-guys-in-armor shows (_guys_
>>>naked in the shower! Rad concept! ;) at your club showings and who knows
>>>what might happen?
> on a related topic are Arslaan War Record and Legend of the Galactic
>Heroes, as their art style is said to be more popular among females...
The manga for Arslaan War *is* shoujo-- it publishes on a shoujo title
(Asuka, if I recall correctly), and if you ever take a look at the character
designs in the manga, there will be no doubt in your mind what it is...
LoGH was originally a novel, and as such ends up not really fitting the
shoujo/shounen model (which most anime doesn't, actually...), but I
get the impression that the anime is meant to appeal more to a male audience
than a female one. I will admit that I don't know that much about the series,
though...
Melinda Miller
>In article <sanjiyanC...@netcom.com>,
>Melinda Miller <sanj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>ger...@chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>>
>"Magical girls?" Whazzat? Are there any examples of these titles?
>I'm not sure I've seen or know whether what I've seen any "magical girls"
>stuff . . .
Sailor Moon. Hime-chan no Ribbon (Hime-chan's Ribbon), Miricle Girls,
Akazukin Chacha (Red-hooded Chacha). Those are just a few of the recent
titles I can name off the top of my head. Basically, these shows have
at least one young female who somehow acquires some sort of magical
power (Usagi transforms into Sailor Moon by viture of her brooch, Hime-chan
can do all sorts of weird things with the gadgets she gets given, etc.).
Frequently there is some sort of romantic theme going on, but it is more
of a Jr. high- high school sort of "young" romance rather than being a
slightly more "mature" type, like KOR or VGAi (did I just say that?!)
>> My point being: I think this whole thing about certain genres appealing
>>only to certain genders is silly, and shows that someone has not woken up
>>and smelled the coffee yet this decade.
>Well . . . the gender thing is not so silly. American business always tries
>to figure out how to make the most money. For instance, the comic book
>and video game industry realizes that most of its profits come from teenage
>(and age fanning out) males buying their products. Thus, some big cheese
>from the upstairs of the company will put out strange comics like Barbie
>and such in some hopeful attempts to turn more profits by targeting the
>else-audiences. (There are many fans of other ages and such, but the main
>ones are, in fact, teenage boys)
Oh come on. The video game industry is more or less making a conciencious
effort *not* to appeal to the female market with their choice of games. The
statistics all agree that the type of games that most of the game companies
put out are not the type that appeals to a female audience. And then they
look at the demographics on their sales and notice that most of the people
buying the games are male and think "gee, video games must not appeal to
females." Females (for the most part) don't like the sort of games that are
being produced, so females must not like video games, right? Deductive
logic only takes you so far (that place usually being a self-fulfilling
loop).
And to relate all this to anime: The big companies seem to have (for the
most part) decided that anime doesn't appeal to females, so then they go
out of their way to bring over stuff that *doesn't* appeal to most females
(seriously guys, if I want to see a naked woman, I'll take my clothes off and
stand in front of a mirror...). That is changing somewhat now, but it
was not too long ago when the lists on new releases were dominated by
things like Monster City and Urotsukidouji.
>I'm a very strong fan of Greenwood. ^_^ \/ (this is supposed to be two fingers
>in the v-shape, but I don't think it looks very obvious)
>The thing that makes this really confusing is that the anime audiences (both
>the ones that I see personally and the ones that I hear about from others)k
>are mostly males. This makes it hard to tell whether males like for-female
>stuff, or whether there's just more males so, of course, for-female stuff has
>a larger male audience. It also makes it hard to tell whether females really
>like for-male stuff, or that they just don't like the female stuff.
The current popularity of Sailor Moon testifies to the fact that males like
for-female anime. If you look at the statisics in the fan polls from
Japan, you will find that *more* males vote in the polls than the females.
In my own experience, I know more males than females who like SM. I have
been very fortunate in that I have found an anime group that has a larger
number of females than seems to be the American "norm", so I would say
that my observations are thrown off a little less than some of the
surveys of fandom.
>So, if females are more interested in male stuff than the supposedly female
>stuff (are they really), then what is that females are really looking for?
Just about anything with a good story and character who I like/can get
emotionally invovled with. I'll watch just about anything, but will
leave the room if there is somethign that has large amounts of gratuitous
violence against females, or gratuitous nudity. I don't even care if
there is large amounts of violence or nudity, so long as it has some
connection to the plot. But if it is just put in to sell more, then I
figure I am not the audience it is aimed at. I believe in good stories,
not lots of tits.
>P.S. What is this sexual revolution stuff, anyways?!
I've always interpreted it as trying to get the concept across to everyone
that women are people too, and deserve to be treated equally, and get
the same respect that a man would. Not more, mind you, the _same_.
Ryo-oh-ki Lee
:>In article <sanjiyanC...@netcom.com>,
:>Melinda Miller <sanj...@netcom.com> wrote:
:>>ger...@chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
:
:>"Magical girls?" Whazzat? Are there any examples of these titles?
:>I'm not sure I've seen or know whether what I've seen any "magical girls"
:>stuff . . .
:
: Sailor Moon. Hime-chan no Ribbon (Hime-chan's Ribbon), Miricle Girls,
:Akazukin Chacha (Red-hooded Chacha). Those are just a few of the recent
:titles I can name off the top of my head. Basically, these shows have
:at least one young female who somehow acquires some sort of magical
:power (Usagi transforms into Sailor Moon by viture of her brooch, Hime-chan
:can do all sorts of weird things with the gadgets she gets given, etc.).
:Frequently there is some sort of romantic theme going on, but it is more
:of a Jr. high- high school sort of "young" romance rather than being a
:slightly more "mature" type, like KOR or VGAi (did I just say that?!)
Chacha barely fits into the magical-girl category. Yes, she aquires a
magical item, but it must be used in conjunction with two other items.
And all it does is transforms Chacha into Princess Holly-up to beat up
bad guys. Most magical girl shows involve an ordinary girl who somehow
acquires a "magical" item for some greater purpose, usually associated
with learning experiences gained from the use of the item. Chacha breaks
the mold in many cases, and is all the better for doing so, imho!
: Oh come on. The video game industry is more or less making a conciencious
:effort *not* to appeal to the female market with their choice of games. The
:statistics all agree that the type of games that most of the game companies
:put out are not the type that appeals to a female audience. And then they
:look at the demographics on their sales and notice that most of the people
:buying the games are male and think "gee, video games must not appeal to
:females." Females (for the most part) don't like the sort of games that are
:being produced, so females must not like video games, right? Deductive
:logic only takes you so far (that place usually being a self-fulfilling
:loop).
Honestly, what characteristics must a game embody in order to attract more
females than males? The video game industry is willing to pay big money to
the person who can answer this question.
: And to relate all this to anime: The big companies seem to have (for the
:most part) decided that anime doesn't appeal to females, so then they go
:out of their way to bring over stuff that *doesn't* appeal to most females
If more female anime fans let these companies know that female anime fans:
1) actually exist,
2) would like to see other titles (include examples),
3) are very willing to buy these titles,
then I'm sure they will broaden their selection. Right now, they have to
pay attention to who buys what more often.
:(seriously guys, if I want to see a naked woman, I'll take my clothes off and
:stand in front of a mirror...). That is changing somewhat now, but it
:was not too long ago when the lists on new releases were dominated by
:things like Monster City and Urotsukidouji.
No fair, you're addressing a world-wide problem. Erotica *always* sells.
: The current popularity of Sailor Moon testifies to the fact that males like
:for-female anime. If you look at the statisics in the fan polls from
:Japan, you will find that *more* males vote in the polls than the females.
"Sailor Moon" the anime is not for-female only. Recall that skirt length
is much short in the anime than the manga. Also note the number of panty
shots associated with certain characters. Finally, males will *always*
like cute anime girls, whether the show is for-female or for-male or
for-everyone. In a sense, the original manga was re-tailored to attract
male audiences.
___/^_^\___ Eugene Lee ryo-...@tamu.edu
Douglas Orlowski
as well as pseudonyms that could easily be hiding women. I've asked for
E-mail accounts from many of my female contacts with the understanding
that I won't post them to a general SIG. Sorry, but too many pests,
jerks, "little boys", etc. is just too much in the online community.
Douglas Orlowski
older women anime fen continues to slide as good ol' US of A TV fandom
continues to grow (as far as the female fen I know). Biggest series of
the last year in the Anime Janai APA have been: Brisco County Jr.,
X-Files, Lois and Clark, Forever Knight, etc. in short, no anime, which
is one of the biggest reasons that APA is folding and (I'd say) a good
reason why a lot of the fen are not going to be in a revived version.
There just isn't anything for them to watch from Japan. If however
you're talking Manga there is still lots there but even the women who
have access to that medium and can translate or offer translations is
pitifully small (and growing fewer each day). I don't know what can be
done about this...perhaps nothing...
Douglas Orlowski
*fan* activities like APA generation, etc. The Otakus in the club up
here I have been trying to organize are all male. Don't know how they'd
react to a female member...if I find one. Most are much younger than me,
probably by at least 15 years or so.
Eric Tolle
>ger...@peterson.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>>In article <1994Jul2.2...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>denizen of chaos <ako...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>"Occasionally, the ever-elusive and endangered species, Female Otakus,
>>appears to make a comment."
>>>More appropriately, perhaps this thread should talk about why women
>>>find the atmosphere of raa uncomfortable.
>>Hmm . . . I guess I can't contribute, since I don't understand why
>>women find the atmosphere uncomfortable. I'm not a woman, I don't
>>find the atmosphere uncomfortable, and I don't see how the raa
>>atmosphere should be uncomfortable for women. Please enlighten!
Actually, a _lot_ of people, not just females find the atmosphere in
most anime clubs repellent. Going into a dark, humid, stuffy place
to see a bunch of people with very poor social or hygene skills going
'oooh ahhh' over assorted hentai stuff...
I'm lucky: I belong to one of the beeter clubs, but on certain occaisons
(such as the guy who was yelling 'thank you thank you' during the 'fan
shots in Gunbuster) I really hope people don't see me entering the club.
at certain times anime clubs have all the charm and respectability of
an adult bookstore. And then I here people wondering why otaku's don't
get much respect from the rest of fandom...or society.
When I show my family and friends anime I show it to them in the privacy
of my home. I can then show them anime I think they would like - anime
that caan be shown to a wide non-otaku audience, and i can answer any
questions without having some self-important anime bigshot interrupt and
explain his version of the action. I also don't have to deal with otaku's
doing their best to make newbie's feel ignorent and like an outsider, or
just generally being antisocial.
Frankly, an anime club is the _last_ place I'd take someone to introduce
them to anime.
(a very succinct and accurate assessment deleated)
> Oh, and pu-lease don't assume that only disucssions pertaining to
>"shoujo" anime will interest females. The hentai stuff is a dead turn-off
>(get serious-- if I wanted to see a naked girl, I'd stand in front of
>the mirror with my clothes off) _most of the time_, but just about
>anything else seems to be fair game.
>
Frankly, a lot of the hentai people make me nervous, and they're _not_
the sort of people I'd introduce to my sister. I mean, getting all
excited over a naked _animated_ girl? yeah. right. And it bugs me a
little that hentai seems to be the major output of translating companies
today, and hentai seems to be sneaking into more and more of the mainstream
anime. Not that I really care, but it means there is fewer new anime I feel
comfortable showing to people who are new to anime.
And a small point of ettiquette: I cannot name a single female anime
>fan I know who likes being called "otaku". Face it, it is slightly
>deragatory in Japanese, and most of the female fans I know happen to know
>enough Japanese to appreciate the difference.
>
A lot of the people I know who are fluent in Japanese and are not otaku's
male and female hate the term otaku. I hate the term myself because I know
of the words origins and how non-fandom in Japan use the term.
>
> My question for the group is: What's the big deal if there are females
>reading the group or not? Is this a boys' only club, are you making sure
>that you don't say anything to offend the "weaker sex"'s feelings, or
>what? I'm just curious, because I've been a long-time reader of this
>group, and have noticed in the past couple of years this thread keeps
>coming up again and again, about once every other month, and I wonder why.
I just get tired of people with all the social skills of chimpanzii's and
using the excuuse of 'were otaku's'.
Eric Tolle Unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
"I'll put it REAL SIMPLY: Otaku is an INSULT dammit! got it?"
Elizabeth Horn
>krol...@MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk) writes:
>>I hate to jump into this thread with a rather uncomfortable observation, but...
>
>Well, I've got another observation to point out.
>
>>A friend of mine of the female persuasion told me in no uncertain terms that
>>some of the more socially unschooled otaku were acting just a wee lecherous
>>towards her in ways that defied both common sense and good taste. It wasn't
>
>that they'll know how to deal with females?
>
>
>activity, and know how to act/be towards females. It's just that I
>worry about what kind of subtle messages anime is imbedding in those
>otaku who don't know.
>
>
>--
>Myra Wong : "Ayukawa Madoka" : mkw...@ucsd.edu : Secretary 1994-1995
>Cal-Animage Beta Chapter, Japanese Animation Club at U. C. San Diego
>"hitotsu no ai ni inochi sae nage-dasu toki ga hoshii no" --"JENIINA"
Maybe anime is impressing the message that women are Ayukawa Madoka:
beautiful, omnicomptent, agressive and mysterious while men are Kasuga
Kyosuke: plain, bumbling, passive, and an open book. Maybe KOR is an
unhealthy influence in a manner more subtle than, say, Urotsukidoji.
You may have noticed that Animerica magazine makes a deliberate effort
to encourage female anime fans to express themselves, which I think is
a good idea. However, I've said it before: women may have only formed
a fraction of the anime community up to now, but their influence has
been fundamental (Jane E. McGuire), persistent (Trish Ledoux, Helen McCarthy)
radical (Pam Buck), and generous (Laurinne White, Ann Schubert).
Now that any woman with three and a half bucks can check out URUSEI
YATSURA or OTAKU NO VIDEO for the weekend at their local Blockbuster,
I expect we'll see some balancing of the old yin and yang. I certainly
hope so, as it might encourage otaku to dance more at social
gatherings.
--Carl "We've got ourselves tonight" Horn
P.S. "Jeniina" is probably my favorite song from KOR; like Eddie
Vedder says: delight in your youth, seishun shitemasu.
Elizabeth Horn
>One thing I have always been proud of my compardres at Anime-X
>show anything like Cream Lemon, Urotsikidoji, Wandering kid, etc.
>at a meeting! Way to go, Lloyd and Dave and all...
>
>
>Gordon.
>
You fellows are something of a time capsule when it comes to anime
clubs; reading LET'S ANIME (quarterly: subscriptions--$10/year sent to
Dave Merrill P.O. Box 724182 Atlanta, GA 31139-1182 buy his incredible
OZONE COMMANDOS manga today as well $3 postpaid correct me if I'm
wrong Gordon please) one finds people who still care about Matsumoto
(with a "Leiji"), Ishi (pre "no") mori, Nagai, and Tezuka. It's way
cool. However--at least three of the aforementioned four did material
that was considered hentai in its day. I was first exposed to porno
anime at a C/FO Dublin meeting; POP CHASER and it blew my little
fourteen-year-old mind. Anime is a big spectrum, and its forbidden
colors tend to bleed into more native hues with regularity. Everyone's
got a doujinshi in the closet. The first time I saw the English
version of Urotsukidoji (often held up as an example of what women
hate about anime, though both Trish Ledoux and Helen McCarthy have
publicly defended it) was with a crowd of non-anime fans of even gender
mix at LaVeau's bar on Alabama Street. Now, Urotsukidoji used to be
thought of, in the Perotian phrase, as the crazy aunt we kept locked
up in the attic; anime's dirty secret, nosir, wouldn't do to let
non-anime fans ever see it. Might give them the wrong ideas about our
happy little genre.
Well, the flip side of that is--maybe it's a good idea for them to see
the hardcore end of the spectrum *first,* and get it over with--that
intro to anime is like a jump into a cold pool: shocking at first, but
then you can get on with the depth. If the person wants to enquire
further into anime, they'll find that all anime *isn't* like the
Wandering Kid saga--the most cursory glance at the titles at
Blockbuster will tell them that.
The aitchstrain runs deep; if you ask Haruhiko Mikimoto what his
favorite chara design was, he's bound to say something about an active
heart. The thickest-ass fanzines I ever saw in my career as an anime
fan were from the femmes savantes--chock full o' bishonen. Enough
saints and Bancoraemon and Cipher and To-Y to stop to stop a hard,
thrusting, rigid katana.
Anime is a strange and wonderful world.
Iskandar Taib
Leung_Gerald <ger...@tatum.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <sanjiyanC...@netcom.com>,
>Melinda Miller <sanj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>ger...@chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>>
>>>For the female otakus out there, do you really think that what is put into
>>>for-females anime is what females are really interested in?
>>
>> Like what? Sailor Moon? Vampire Princess Miyu? Koko wa Greenwood? What
>>are some other great shoujo series? (Arin, help me out! :) What I think is
>>put into for-females anime is more often than not what someone in business
>>*thinks* is what will appeal to females, and will not necessarily. I'll
>>tell you for me personally, *none* of the "magical girls" series appeal
>>to me, and I can't see how they would to just about any sane female over
>>the age of about 8. But that's just my opinion. Hey, my favorite series
>>is a shounen one!
Not sure about anime, but supposedly the stereotypical shojo manga
deals with relationships. The Tenchi Muyo Special made fun of it. A
Japanese friend told me that she thought it was quite accurate - its
usually girl likes boy (usually a popular one) but cant tell him. It
usually ends up that he likes her, too, but can't tell her. (Hmm..
sounds like Orange Road, doesn't it?) Sort of akin to the Harlequin
Romance Novel (mind you, not all of these are really bad.. I read one
or two in high school and found them to be quite intelligent). I can
imagine that if Tenchi Muyo were made in the US the jokes would be
about Harlequin Romance novels.
Of course, theres quite a bit more to it than this - Hime-chan no
Ribon and Sailor Moon attest to that. But there definitely are
distinct shonen and shojo manga. Even the used book stores are
seperate.
That said, there are "shonen" romance stories (they show up in the
shonen bookstores and in shonen magazines) - KOR and Maison Ikkoku,
for instance. I can see where these would appeal to a large audience,
both male and female.
>"Magical girls?" Whazzat? Are there any examples of these titles?
>I'm not sure I've seen or know whether what I've seen any "magical girls"
>stuff . . .
Creamy Mami, Sailor Moon, Hime-chan no Ribon, Akazukin Chacha..
The only "shonen" equivalent I've ever seen was Lamune.
I don't at all find it surprising that many (perhaps most) women don't
like these. After all, they're meant for junior high school age girls
(the joshikosei we were talking about earlier). For what its worth,
around here _I'm_ the _only_ one who likes Sailor Moon! ^_^;;
>> My point being: I think this whole thing about certain genres appealing
>>only to certain genders is silly, and shows that someone has not woken up
>>and smelled the coffee yet this decade.
>
>Well . . . the gender thing is not so silly. American business always tries
>to figure out how to make the most money. For instance, the comic book
>and video game industry realizes that most of its profits come from teenage
>(and age fanning out) males buying their products. Thus, some big cheese
>from the upstairs of the company will put out strange comics like Barbie
>and such in some hopeful attempts to turn more profits by targeting the
>else-audiences. (There are many fans of other ages and such, but the main
>ones are, in fact, teenage boys)
I think the truth lies somewhere in between. There _are_ genres that
are _aimed_ at various groups (yes, I'll bring up Harlequin Romances
up again) but that doesn't mean that there isn't a huge crossover of
people from other groups who like said genres, or shows that transcend
the divide.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NT...@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !
Peter Jason Ward
>
>Apples and oranges, dude. Some otaku are just as obnoxious as frat brats,
>albeit in a different fashion altogether.
Hear, hear!!
About a year and a half ago I quit attending the local anime club
because of their obnoxious, immature behavior. (They also needed to do
some work on personal hygene) And as mentioned previously, whenever 'a
girl" (tm) would show up... well, it was just sad.
*****************************************************************************
Peter Ward "And the world awakenes me so hard, my values haven't changed.
Ironmarshal I make a promise to myself, never again.
+@CMU.EDU A dusty, Godforsaken path, endless to my dismay,
Pittsburgh I know these are the badlands, somehow I'll find my way...."
*****************************************************************************
Iskandar Taib
> And as for why the atmostphere is uncomfortable, I can only drag out
>the old example of a club a couple of friends of mine attended. At this
>club they were showing _Wandering Kid_ in one room, and _Urutsukidouju_
>in the other, and the few not drooling in one room or the other were sitting
>around wondering why there weren't any girls in the club.
Heheh..
Exactly the kind of stuff we've managed to avoid down here. Since I
provide the bulk of the tapes we _don't_ watch the tentacle stuff.
> And a small point of ettiquette: I cannot name a single female anime
>fan I know who likes being called "otaku". Face it, it is slightly
>deragatory in Japanese, and most of the female fans I know happen to know
>enough Japanese to appreciate the difference.
I think "slightly deragatory" is putting it mildly.
Peter Jason Ward
>most anime clubs repellent. Going into a dark, humid, stuffy place
>to see a bunch of people with very poor social or hygene skills going
>'oooh ahhh' over assorted hentai stuff...
>
>I'm lucky: I belong to one of the beeter clubs, but on certain occaisons
>(such as the guy who was yelling 'thank you thank you' during the 'fan
>shots in Gunbuster) I really hope people don't see me entering the club.
>at certain times anime clubs have all the charm and respectability of
>an adult bookstore. And then I here people wondering why otaku's don't
>get much respect from the rest of fandom...or society.
And here I was thinking I was the only one...
>When I show my family and friends anime I show it to them in the privacy
>of my home. I can then show them anime I think they would like - anime
>that caan be shown to a wide non-otaku audience, and i can answer any
>questions without having some self-important anime bigshot interrupt and
>explain his version of the action. I also don't have to deal with otaku's
>doing their best to make newbie's feel ignorent and like an outsider, or
>just generally being antisocial.
>
>Frankly, an anime club is the _last_ place I'd take someone to introduce
>them to anime.
Again, right on. All the people I've introduced to anime has been at
home where it can be appreciated without a room of smartass inbreds
trying to play Mystery Science Theater. Anime clubs are probably the
biggest deterent to new peoples' enjoyment of anime. I think the
'element' present in most anime clubs prefer being there for the social
interaction (barely) and comaraderie (in a twisted, sick way). I think
anime is just something they condense around. Much like that damn
'magic' game.
>Frankly, a lot of the hentai people make me nervous, and they're _not_
>the sort of people I'd introduce to my sister. I mean, getting all
>excited over a naked _animated_ girl? yeah. right. And it bugs me a
Yep, that was another big reason I quit showing up at that club. While
watching Akira, at the point the clown biker rips the shirt off of
Tetsuo's girlfriend, one of the 'fans' got so excited that he jumped up
and screamed, "Do it! Rape her!" This was also the guy who I
reluctantly started to spar with one day while working out; and I
quickly quit. He wasn't in any kind of control and would have bashed me
across the head if I hadn't been able to block and retreat. This guy
has problems, and he's just the tip of the iceberg in some of these
clubs.
Sorry I for quoting nearly every line, but it's so rare that I see
something in RAA that I agree with, I had to respond.
Adios!
Iskandar Taib
Elizabeth Horn <eh...@schadenfreude.mti.sgi.com> wrote:
>Well, the flip side of that is--maybe it's a good idea for them to see
>the hardcore end of the spectrum *first,* and get it over with--that
>intro to anime is like a jump into a cold pool: shocking at first, but
>then you can get on with the depth. If the person wants to enquire
>further into anime, they'll find that all anime *isn't* like the
>Wandering Kid saga--the most cursory glance at the titles at
>Blockbuster will tell them that.
Anime has a bad enough reputation already for being violent and
perverse among the general public. Showing something like this first
would turn off huge numbers of people, including me. How would anyone
know that the KOR tapes at Blockbuster _aren't_ like Urotsokidoji
without watching them? They'd even probably avoid the aisle!
Leung_Gerald
Eric Tolle <unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>Actually, a _lot_ of people, not just females find the atmosphere in
>most anime clubs repellent. Going into a dark, humid, stuffy place
>to see a bunch of people with very poor social or hygene skills going
>'oooh ahhh' over assorted hentai stuff...
I don't feel that most of my anime club is like that. Nor do I feel
that anime clubs should attract such unsavory behavior from people.
Whenever I go into my anime club, it is just like a movie theater
(except during our famous auctions). Going into a dark (the only
quality I've seen) place to see anime doesn't show that the people
there have poor social or hygiene skills. I meet just as many people
with poor social and hygiene skills in the club as I do anywhere in
campus or classrooms of my collegetown. I'd say the proportions of
poor social skilled people and everyone else are the same in and out
of the club. I don't understand why an anime club would be a collection
point for sickos and perverts.
Also, hentai stuff is supposed to be oooh-ed and ahhh-ed over. Don't
tell me that when someone sees hentai stuff, they're supposed to stick
their nose in the air and act totally apathetic. Social skills have
nothing to do with how hentai a person is.
>I'm lucky: I belong to one of the beeter clubs, but on certain occaisons
>(such as the guy who was yelling 'thank you thank you' during the 'fan
>shots in Gunbuster) I really hope people don't see me entering the club.
>at certain times anime clubs have all the charm and respectability of
>an adult bookstore. And then I here people wondering why otaku's don't
>get much respect from the rest of fandom...or society.
People, like the guy you described, are everywhere. These people do not
just all become otakus to go bug the hell out of other otakus. There in
the movie theaters, in school, and even out on the streets (especially
so in college towns, every college town, from Berkeley to Stanford to
any other place you can think of).
>When I show my family and friends anime I show it to them in the privacy
>of my home. I can then show them anime I think they would like - anime
>that caan be shown to a wide non-otaku audience, and i can answer any
>questions without having some self-important anime bigshot interrupt and
>explain his version of the action. I also don't have to deal with otaku's
>doing their best to make newbie's feel ignorent and like an outsider, or
>just generally being antisocial.
Most people are self-important bigshots. If you don't think so, you must
know a lot of nice people. These people are everpresent in society in all
aspects of life from family to work to school. I'm not saying, you can't
get angry at these people. They are fools. But the point is everyone
must deal with it. Hentai stuff isn't responsible for churning out sex
maniacs. It just gives them something to blow their hoots about. Don't
make hentai stuff a scapegoat that you can blame all your problems on.
If you were to rid the world of hentai stuff, it wouldn't be any better
a place. The people themselves are the problem and it takes a lot to
change their attitudes.
>Frankly, an anime club is the _last_ place I'd take someone to introduce
>them to anime.
Frankly, it's the first place I'd take someone to indtroduce to anime. It's
really hard to get anime shown so conveniently anywhere else.
>Frankly, a lot of the hentai people make me nervous, and they're _not_
>the sort of people I'd introduce to my sister. I mean, getting all
>excited over a naked _animated_ girl? yeah. right. And it bugs me a
>little that hentai seems to be the major output of translating companies
>today, and hentai seems to be sneaking into more and more of the mainstream
>anime. Not that I really care, but it means there is fewer new anime I feel
>comfortable showing to people who are new to anime.
I could be wrong (I'm not any more righteous than you are), but I think
you're really referring to sickos and perverts. If I had a sister, I
wouldn't introduce her to those sort of people, either. Hentai means
exactly people who are into "that" kind of stuff. Watching hentai anime
doesn't make someone sick, which means it doesn't make someone hentai.
Humans have sex. Thus, they have hormones and get excited. If someone
doesn't get excited, I'd think something was wrong with them, not right.
People getting excited for no reason are sick (also, getting excited
over a naked animated girl doesn't mean that they're getting excited
for no reason, hentai anime is SUPPOSED to get that kind of reaction,
even if at least a little snicker). If the animation is really good
quality, then such a reaction should be normal. Jumping up and howling
like mad then panting and letting the tongue flap around is a little
overkill and is sick. But don't stereotype otakus like that.
>A lot of the people I know who are fluent in Japanese and are not otaku's
>male and female hate the term otaku. I hate the term myself because I know
>of the words origins and how non-fandom in Japan use the term.
Well, I myself am EXTREMELY lazy and otaku is just slightly easier to
write and type than anime fan.
>"I'll put it REAL SIMPLY: Otaku is an INSULT dammit! got it?"
Are you sure that's not just a lot of historical connotation?
More importantly, do you think otakus will stop using the word because
you or twenty people say so?
Think.
GL
Leung_Gerald
Melinda Miller <sanj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>ger...@tatum.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>
>>In article <sanjiyanC...@netcom.com>,
>>Melinda Miller <sanj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>ger...@chet.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Leung_Gerald) writes:
>>Well . . . the gender thing is not so silly. American business always tries
>>to figure out how to make the most money. For instance, the comic book
>>and video game industry realizes that most of its profits come from teenage
>>(and age fanning out) males buying their products. Thus, some big cheese
>>from the upstairs of the company will put out strange comics like Barbie
>>and such in some hopeful attempts to turn more profits by targeting the
>>else-audiences. (There are many fans of other ages and such, but the main
>>ones are, in fact, teenage boys)
> Oh come on. The video game industry is more or less making a conciencious
>effort *not* to appeal to the female market with their choice of games. The
>statistics all agree that the type of games that most of the game companies
>put out are not the type that appeals to a female audience.
Who said that the video games DO appeal to the female audience? They DON'T,
because females still do not care for what the producers produce. This doesn't
mean that the producers are deliberately sticking to male audience products.
Otherwise, they wouldn't keep coming out with games like Beauty and the Beast
or The Little Mermaid. These types of games are the pathetic attempts of the
producers to try and get more people involved in their products and buy more
from them (I never said that female audiences like what the producers put out).
I said that what they put out is TARGETED at female audiences (whether they like
it or not is a different point, which, by the way, you covered very thoroughly).
>And then they
>look at the demographics on their sales and notice that most of the people
>buying the games are male and think "gee, video games must not appeal to
>females." Females (for the most part) don't like the sort of games that are
>being produced, so females must not like video games, right? Deductive
>logic only takes you so far (that place usually being a self-fulfilling
>loop).
That particular viewpoint IS rather naive (not that you are). First of all,
video games are just graphics coordinated with a lot of button pushes.
Electronics is ignorant of gender and don't care whether you're male, female,
or else. The producers can easily figure all this. These producers are, however,
mostly male (business is still heavily male-dominated, even more so in Japan),
thus they know almost exactly the kinds of values to put in their games:
aggression, violence, blood. For the most part, it works (even though, the
producers don't really have as good a grasp on the mindsets of teenage males
as they think or would like to believe they do). When they want to make
for-female stuff, they find themselves in a rut. Then they naively conjure
up values from stereotypical images of what they believe girls want (for
instance, some will just try to put all the values that are exactly opposite
of what they put in male stuff).
When a boy and a girl both look at a blank machine, and neither give a care
for computers, then they pretty much react the same way: confused and uncaring.
When they both see that the computer can get them what they want, they'll start
admiring the computer. The producers know what the boy wants but they don't
know what the girl wants. So the boy will think that the machine is rather
interesting, while the girl won't care. Of course, there are a lot more
details involved, but this is just a very basic and simple conceptual image.
> And to relate all this to anime: The big companies seem to have (for the
>most part) decided that anime doesn't appeal to females, so then they go
>out of their way to bring over stuff that *doesn't* appeal to most females
>(seriously guys, if I want to see a naked woman, I'll take my clothes off and
>stand in front of a mirror...). That is changing somewhat now, but it
>was not too long ago when the lists on new releases were dominated by
>things like Monster City and Urotsukidouji.
Anime exhibits the same patterns in what is produced and what it apparently is
targeted at.
>>So, if females are more interested in male stuff than the supposedly female
>>stuff (are they really), then what is that females are really looking for?
After all, it's obvious that females don't like the stereotypical female stuff
being produced. That's why I asked what they do like.
> Just about anything with a good story and character who I like/can get
>emotionally invovled with. I'll watch just about anything, but will
>leave the room if there is somethign that has large amounts of gratuitous
>violence against females, or gratuitous nudity. I don't even care if
>there is large amounts of violence or nudity, so long as it has some
>connection to the plot. But if it is just put in to sell more, then I
>figure I am not the audience it is aimed at. I believe in good stories,
>not lots of tits.
I agree with EVERY word of what you just said (wrote, whatever).
Hmmm . . . I guess males' and females' tastes are not really that different,
after all.
Much of the mindless violence (as opposed to violence that adds to the story)
and sex (same) is just another stereotype of what males like. Males have a
historical image of being like that. It's actually hard for a guy to try to wipe
out that kind of image while withstanding the onslaught of females beating him
over the head with it.
>>P.S. What is this sexual revolution stuff, anyways?!
> I've always interpreted it as trying to get the concept across to everyone
>that women are people too, and deserve to be treated equally, and get
>the same respect that a man would. Not more, mind you, the _same_.
I agree that everyone should be treated equally, but it's much easier to say
than do.
Do men really get that much respect when women, who are roughly half our
population, think men are domineering and controlling?
It's sort of like the thing with blacks getting more respect. A black man can
accuse a white man of racism more easily than the other way around. Does that
mean that white men are much more racist than blacks? Blacks DO deserve more
respect, even more than what some are getting now. But that doesn't mean that
blacks are pure angels.
I was once walking through a mall. A group of four or so kids, who were black,
wearing black clothes, shoes, you-name-it, walked by me. As they did, one kid
looked at me and said "chee ching chong, etc." while the rest laughed. I told
this to a black friend of mine later on who promptly said that he would have
punched those kids' teeth out. One individual never speaks for an entire group.
One individual never represents an entire group. Unless every person of a group
says the group believes so, the group has not been proven to believe so.
GL
Eric Tang Williamson
Iskandar Taib <nt...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>> And as for why the atmostphere is uncomfortable, I can only drag out
>>the old example of a club a couple of friends of mine attended. At this
>>club they were showing _Wandering Kid_ in one room, and _Urutsukidouju_
>>in the other, and the few not drooling in one room or the other were sitting
>>around wondering why there weren't any girls in the club.
>
>Heheh..
>
>Exactly the kind of stuff we've managed to avoid down here. Since I
>provide the bulk of the tapes we _don't_ watch the tentacle stuff.
I agree. Having just started an anime club on campus myself, by
controlling the supply and what is shown, one can hopefully control the
atmosphere as well. Despite all that, some idiots _do_ still show up at
showings. The first thing we showed was Akira, hoping to attract people
to the show, but we got an equal number of people that made rude comments
as didn't. The next showing the rude people didn't show up and the
showing went much better.
Also, having obtained the facilities to project the anime on the screen
from VCR, we _have_ to have the room as dark as possible for it to show
well. The atmosphere itself (stuffy, humid...) is a result of the school
and the rooms you can obtain, not the anime itself!! ^_-
Lastly, while I understand how the Japanese mean Otaku, the meaning has
been changed by American fandom. Like trekkie was originally derogatory
term that the community itself adopted. We Americans have a long history
of taking the derogatory names, etc that our detractors use and using it
ourselves, thus taking the bite out of their insults. Two more prime
examples are how African-Americans today often us niggah/nigger/niggaz
themselves when talking to each other ("Yo, niggah! Was'sup?") and how
in the Revolutionary War we took the "Yankee Doodle Dandy" song that the
Redcoats sang in derision and made it our own marching song. Language
_is_ mutable and the word Otaku here now has a new meaining that isn't
bad.. although I still wouldn't use it to refer to myself when in Japan.
I guess the point is that I wouldn't be so uptight about it.. ;-)
Overall, I agree that I wouldn't go to some of the anime clubs around and
I would definitely be intimidated by the atmosphere as newbie/female; but
that's up to the people who show the anime to change and the members of
the club to take charge and change it for the better (or worse :( ... ).
<Climbs down _off_ the soapbox, dons abestos suit>
This is your brain, this is your brain on fanaticism...
Any questions?
--
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
--- Eric Tang Williamson: ewi...@umbc.edu Finance Senator, UMBC SGA
7726 Baggins Rd/P.O. Box 522 Hanover, MD 21076-1606 (410) 455-2220/3894
President and Co-Founder of the NEW!!! UMBC Anime Society. Come Join Us ^_^
Chris Krolczyk
: >: I'd rather be surrounded by "geeky" otaku than "macho" frat boys... ^_^;;;
: >
: >Apples and oranges, dude. Some otaku are just as obnoxious as frat brats,
: >albeit in a different fashion altogether.
: Hear, hear!!
: About a year and a half ago I quit attending the local anime club
: because of their obnoxious, immature behavior. (They also needed to do
: some work on personal hygene) And as mentioned previously, whenever 'a
: girl" (tm) would show up... well, it was just sad.
Yeesh.
I judge that you're posting from Central Michigan, but it sounds like you've
attended some of the clubs I used to attend. The similarities of behavior
displayed by some of the more serious basket-cases is unpleasant, to say
the least.
Chris Krolczyk
(text deleted)
???
Y'know, I've heard of weird crosspost techniques and all, but who reposted
this from the above address? Gerald Leung got the same treatment. What
gives?
Elizabeth Horn
Blockbuster _aren't_ like Urotsukidoji without watching them?'
I was just going along with the way things are set up at my
Blockbuster--the original cases for each tape are displayed on the
rack, empty, with Blockbuster's own case containing the tape itself
behind the original if it has not been checked out yet. Looking at the
two cases in comparison, on the LEGEND OF THE OVERFIEND case we have a
guy exploding, blood, tentacles, and the legend "Warning: Absolutely
Not For Children." On the KOR case, we have a girl standing in front
of a vanity, holding a lipstick--on the back we read "Next, in
'Message In Rouge,' Madoka's father returns to give a concert, but
when Madoka finds out he's being unfaithful to her mother, she runs
away from home. Will Kyosuke and Hikaru be able to find her?" Don't
sound too much like an Overfiend sequel to me.
I don't mean to be a wise-ass; maybe the display situation in the
Bloomington Blockbuster(s) is different; for instance, if the original
case isn't around and only the Blockbuster case, than it might indeed
be more difficult to determine the true nature of the tape.
twi
>Peter Jason Ward (ironma...@CMU.EDU) wrote:
>: About a year and a half ago I quit attending the local anime club
>: because of their obnoxious, immature behavior. (They also needed to do
>: some work on personal hygene) And as mentioned previously, whenever 'a
>: girl" (tm) would show up... well, it was just sad.
>
>Yeesh.
>
>I judge that you're posting from Central Michigan, but it sounds like you've
>attended some of the clubs I used to attend. The similarities of behavior
>displayed by some of the more serious basket-cases is unpleasant, to say
>the least.
>--
Hmm, in regards to the atmosphere in anime clubs in response to females, I
must say that I have been lucky. The club that I belong to (UT Anime Club)
seems to be ok. In fact, when I go to club meetings, I am pretty much ignored.
(hmm sometimes I wonder if this is a good or bad thing, ego-wise =8v) )
I have only seen one person that had a little personal hygiene (sp?) problem
(and that was at the first meeting I went to, but it wasn't enough to scare
me away!), and only a couple people there needed a good thrashing by the
Fashion Police. I enjoy myself at the meetings. It is a good place for me to
see anime for free. Though there are many video stores in town that have anime
selections (6 of the blockbusters I have been to have had animation sections,
and I know of 6 other independent video stores that also rent anime) I much
prefer seeing it for free, I am a poor student, ya know! =Bv) I haven't noticed
any extremely hentai-like responses to any of the anime shown (or H-anime
being shown at all) but then again, maybe I have just been too wrapped up in
watching the anime to notice =) Or maybe strange things go on there during
the meetings I can't attend <g>.
Oh, to go off subject a bit, could someone possibly tell me *where* y'all
get your NewType magazines, and the like? Thanks a lot!
_________\_________
/ \
/ | Emily, the Lovely Soldier Sailor Io
/ |
| /\/\ \ \ \/\ \/ _ | <ifb...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
\ / \\ ^ ^ || \ | "It's probably just some local fisherman
\| | ( () || | | out for a pleasure cruise...at night...
/ ||_/ | through eel-infested waters...."
| D \ | | /\
\ ___/ / | |__ ___ / \ "Man, today was more hectic
\_________/ |/ \ ___ / \/ /_ than the closing theme to
|_ ____|| |/ \| |\ / _Dragon Half_!"
_______| V |\___/| |\___/ \_/
/ = \___/
Ryo-oh-ki Lee
Eric Tang Williamson <ewi...@umbc.edu> wrote:
:
:Lastly, while I understand how the Japanese mean Otaku, the meaning has
The correct term among fans is "Trekker". Non-fans use the word "Trekkie".
:term that the community itself adopted. We Americans have a long history
:of taking the derogatory names, etc that our detractors use and using it
:ourselves, thus taking the bite out of their insults. Two more prime
:examples are how African-Americans today often us niggah/nigger/niggaz
:themselves when talking to each other ("Yo, niggah! Was'sup?") and how
:in the Revolutionary War we took the "Yankee Doodle Dandy" song that the
:Redcoats sang in derision and made it our own marching song. Language
:_is_ mutable and the word Otaku here now has a new meaining that isn't
:bad.. although I still wouldn't use it to refer to myself when in Japan.
:I guess the point is that I wouldn't be so uptight about it.. ;-)
Careful. There are some American anime fans who would strongly *object* to
being labeled as "otaku".
And as for African-American racial slurs, the "N" word is used among
themselves mostly in a friendly nature. But let a WASP say it, and
he/she/it becomes accused of racial prejudice.
If society labels a group with a derogatory term, and the group instead
uses that term amongst themselves as a form of empowerment, it does not
mean that the term is no longer derogatory. Maybe in 10-20 years will
this change...
Eric Tolle
>
>> And to relate all this to anime: The big companies seem to have (for the
>>most part) decided that anime doesn't appeal to females, so then they go
>>out of their way to bring over stuff that *doesn't* appeal to most females
>>(seriously guys, if I want to see a naked woman, I'll take my clothes off and
>>stand in front of a mirror...). That is changing somewhat now, but it
>>was not too long ago when the lists on new releases were dominated by
>>things like Monster City and Urotsukidouji.
>Anime exhibits the same patterns in what is produced and what it apparently is
>targeted at.
Unfortunatly, it's not even the japanese companies that are showing that
pattern. In Japan they have _all_ the varied demographics down, so there are
animes on every subject from romance to action, to cooking to baseball.
It is the choice of a few _American_ companies to limit themselves to
Otaku-ish stuff, because they see a limited demographic of tean-aged and
college aged males.
As an aside, I have a friend who is a male in his early thirties who is
slowly dropping out of anime fandom because he, (quote) "is tired of seeing
films about Junior High school students".
>> Just about anything with a good story and character who I like/can get
>>emotionally invovled with. I'll watch just about anything, but will
>>leave the room if there is somethign that has large amounts of gratuitous
>>violence against females, or gratuitous nudity. I don't even care if
>>there is large amounts of violence or nudity, so long as it has some
>>connection to the plot. But if it is just put in to sell more, then I
>>figure I am not the audience it is aimed at. I believe in good stories,
>>not lots of tits.
I agree. I am also tired of violence and nudity, and 'fan service' shots
that have no plot function at all. Not that I'm a prudist, but sex and
violence should be subservient to a good plot.
>Much of the mindless violence (as opposed to violence that adds to the story)
>and sex (same) is just another stereotype of what males like. Males have a
>historical image of being like that. It's actually hard for a guy to try to wipe
>out that kind of image while withstanding the onslaught of females beating him
>over the head with it.
Uh-huh, the only thing worse then the steriotyping of females in anime
as sex-kittens is the stereotype
of men as being sexually immature letchers with no self control or ability
to handle relationships in a mature way....(I _knew_ there was a reason I
diden't like Orange Road!)
>I agree that everyone should be treated equally, but it's much easier to say
>than do.
Hmmm....the sexual drive _is_ powerful, and it can definatly color many
relationships, but I think that sexual interest should be separated
from the idea of domination. Try as we might, men and women will often
think of each other in a sexual light, but now most of the time that's
inappropriate.
>Do men really get that much respect when women, who are roughly half our
>population, think men are domineering and controlling?
It's a fact of life that throught almost all of history, and in all
cultures men had higher status then women. It doesent make it any more
right though then slavery. Fighting human nature is a large part of
what modern civilization is about.
Eric Tolle unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
learning from our mistakes is painful, which is why recently the same
mistakes are made over and over again.
Eric Tolle
>>Exactly the kind of stuff we've managed to avoid down here. Since I
>>provide the bulk of the tapes we _don't_ watch the tentacle stuff.
>I agree. Having just started an anime club on campus myself, by
>controlling the supply and what is shown, one can hopefully control the
>atmosphere as well. Despite all that, some idiots _do_ still show up at
>showings. The first thing we showed was Akira, hoping to attract people
>to the show, but we got an equal number of people that made rude comments
>as didn't. The next showing the rude people didn't show up and the
>showing went much better.
I have to wonder if dictatorship is tyhe natural form for anime clubs.
everywhere I go it seems to be a small core group that actually get things
done. Bringing democracy to clubs either slows things down or results
in the clubs being disbanded.
not that freedom of choice isn't important: At the club I go to the
programmer gives a long list of films she has to be shown and we decide
on whats going to be added to the schedule
Amazing though how Wandering Kid and Urutsukidoji never get on that list
though...;)
>Lastly, while I understand how the Japanese mean Otaku, the meaning has
>been changed by American fandom. Like trekkie was originally derogatory
>term that the community itself adopted. We Americans have a long history
>of taking the derogatory names, etc that our detractors use and using it
>ourselves, thus taking the bite out of their insults. Two more prime
>examples are how African-Americans today often us niggah/nigger/niggaz
>themselves when talking to each other ("Yo, niggah! Was'sup?") and how
>in the Revolutionary War we took the "Yankee Doodle Dandy" song that the
>Redcoats sang in derision and made it our own marching song. Language
>_is_ mutable and the word Otaku here now has a new meaining that isn't
>bad.. although I still wouldn't use it to refer to myself when in Japan.
>I guess the point is that I wouldn't be so uptight about it.. ;-)
As an Anthro major, I'd say it's an in-group out-group sort of thing...
a white guy calling a black man 'nigger' is still being insulting...I could
go into the psychology of that for now, but right now I have to wonder
if my objection to otaku's calling me an otaku is that I don't want to
be in their in-group?
\
>Overall, I agree that I wouldn't go to some of the anime clubs around and
>I would definitely be intimidated by the atmosphere as newbie/female; but
>that's up to the people who show the anime to change and the members of
>the club to take charge and change it for the better (or worse :( ... ).
At the good clubs, there's a quietness, politness, 'shut-up while the film
is on policy'. It works real well to keep the jerkyness down. I guess
it ties into the respect issue.
>This is your brain, this is your brain on fanaticism...
> Any questions?
Eric Tolle unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
this is your brain, if you want it back, it'll cost you...
Melinda Miller
[discourse on how the meaning of "otaku" has been changed munched]
While I agree on the mutability of the language, I personally
object to the use of "otaku" simply because it does mean what it
does in Japanese. I get the impression that part of what the anime
conventions are trying to do is impress the Japanese that there is
a market for _quality_ anime in the US, and that anime fans here
are not all drooling perverts who only want to watch the etchi stuff.
American anime fans calling themselves by a derisive term in Japanese
is certianly not the best way to go about achieving this goal.
Also, it confirms to the Japanese that gaijin cannot learn the
"subtle" nuances of their language, a point which I personally _cannot_
believe in.