THIS IS RUMOR CONTROL - HERE ARE THE FACTS
C Sue Shambaugh
Having perused the "Viz vs Anime Clubs" threads for the past
couple of days, I thought it might be time the "the horse's mouth" to
step in and set things straight.
On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
English any products owned by Shogakukan.
In her words, "Vis *is* Shogakukan."
This includes, I presume, every title they ever did or ever will
release, whether Viz has any intentions of marketing it or not.
She then asked me if I would go on the 'Net and ask all the fan
translators to please stop posting translations, take them off the
FTP sites, and (basically) quit doing that nasty stuff.
She said that she doesn't care if people charge money for fan
translations or not, and stated their intention to "go after" people who
post at or carry translations on FTP sites.
If Trish says this conversation never happened, then Trish is a liar.
We have more than one phone on my house. Tom listened in on the
extension, so there is a witness. Also, her own partner (Toshi)\
confirmed the occurrrence in a conversation with a friend of mine.
I will have Viz's phone records subpoenaed if necessary to prove that
they called me.
There's a lot more that I was told by Lopa, but I have neither
the time nor the inclination to repeat it all here.
I have prepared a statement for my customers about this situation, and
it was a portion of this letter that Laurine White (get her name right,
people!) reprinted in her newsletter without my knowledge. I have no
knowledge that Laurine has any particular grudge against Viz. But then,
until 6 weeks ago, neither did I.
One statement that Lopa made to me on the phone, I will quote for you
in its entirety:
" Sue, you can translate any of Shogakukan's works you want to, as long
as it's just for your personal pleasure. But the minute you show it to
another living soul, that is a violation of our trademark."
Infer what you will, fan-subbers. Also, fan artists.
Sorry if this message is a bit messy; Delphi's net-poster
and phone lines are both a bit cluttered and full of noise :-)
Anyway, I think I flatter myself I have a good enough reputation that
I need not be branded an hysteric NOR a liar on this Net.
You may expect a full accounting from me of this matter in Anime UK;
Helen McCarthy has solicited an article from me
on this very topic.
Don't bother replying to me here, or by e-mail; I'm sure with the
number of responses I'm likely to get, I won't have time for either.
- C Sue Shambaugh
12-year fan translator
R. Bain
>On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
>Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
>that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
>English any products owned by Shogakukan.
>
>In her words, "Vis *is* Shogakukan."
they'd begrudge the generous souls who share with others the riches they've
found? Sad.
(Yes, I know perfectly well that fan-subbing/copying is illegal. I don't
regard it as immoral, if the anime in question's not being sold in the US,
or _is_ being sold by Streamline. :)
Am I making any sense?
C Sue Shambaugh
Lopa said that she and other companies whom they have contacted are
forming a non-profit group called something like the "Japanese Animation
Legal Defense Fund," whose purpose it will be to track down and prosecute
Illegal, immoral, and until now largely impervious fan translation. She
claimed that the companies she had contacted were all for the idea and
for participating. I suppose this will be something like the S/W group
that got formed to try to stamp out disk copying.
Also, because I did not agree to go out of the translation business altogether,
and despite the fact that I offered to not translate anything by Shogakukan
if they would just send me a list of the verboten titles, she has deemed that
I have a "bad attitude" and is said to be contemplating going to Tokuma
Shoten to tattle to them about the fact that I have translated a portion of
the Legends of Galactic Heroes series.
If this is not petty, I don't know what is.
This has all been confirmed through Toshi via a friend of mine. If that
friend would be so kind as to step forward, identify himself publicly,
and tell what he knows, I think this would be the appropriate time. It
would also provide the good folks here at r.a.a with a confirming source
that they already know and trust.
- Sue
Enrique Conty
>
[Lopa from Viz fired a nastygram to Sue Shambaugh]
Sobering information indeed.
>If Trish says this conversation never happened, then Trish is a liar.
It is to my understanding that this was never claimed. She only said
that there was no grand plan orchestrated by Viz to rid the world of
fan scripts. And, for the time being, this is correct.
Even so, I recommend to Jay Harvey to stop distributing the fan subbers
list he maintains, and to all fan script writers to stop posting their
scripts to the net. Steve Pearl may want to remove Sue's mention in the
r.a.a. FAQs, and so on.
>You may expect a full accounting from me of this matter in Anime UK;
>Helen McCarthy has solicited an article from me on this very topic.
Well, you just lit the fuse. Might as well send the article.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@mcs.com
http://www.mcs.net/~conty/
Looking for Heavy Metal July 1983 issue. Top dollar offered.
Andrew John Brewer
: paid, so money is not the issue. Viz &co. might be able to stop large outfits
: like Nexus & NT Anime, but the "four kids in a basement with an Amiga" can't
: really be touched, not for legal reasons (what they are doing _is_ against the
: law), but practical ones (are you going to search every basement?).
Actually, NT-Anime is practically 4 kids and an Amiga. The only thing
that makes any fansubber group "big" is their distribution network --
again, usually two or three people willing to make the copies.
: It will be harder for subtitlers and translators to communicate over the
: Internet, and Venice might have to shut down...
Most translators/subtitlers have taken their business off RAA to avoid
the noise and have shifted to mailing lists that are far more exclusive
(and have far more posts that are worth reading). Fan translators being
kicked off of RAA is no big deal -- after all, with the exception of
myself and my group, maybe one or two people, tops, release scripts here
publically.
What's going to hurt the "common folk" most is getting rid of the fan
subbers. I mean, where else are you going to bum off your free Japanese
anime from?
: believe that they will succeed at eliminating fansubs, or bootlegs for that
: matter--just drive everything a bit more underground.
Once the fan subbers go (that will be relatively easy -- most, if not all
of them are on here), so will the bootleggers -- where else are the
latter going to get their free scripts and/or free anime tapes to bootleg
off of from? With the exception of S. Baldric Productions and AVP
Productions, most bootleggers grab fan subs and sell copies of them at
conventions.
-- AjB
Group Leader, AXIS
Associate, NT-Anime
Geoffrey Scott
1. Did you ever consider that the person calling was NOT from Viz, but just
somebody had a grudge against them?
2. It is within their legal right to go after you. If Shogakukan owns
any of the copyright of an anime (like it was licensed from one of their
manga titles or whatever), they have EVERY RIGHT to go after you. You
are doing something that is illegal. Now, this is obviously NOT in Viz's
best interests, and it really, really bites, but they still have the
right to tell you to knock it off. I believe international copyrights
are civil crimes only, not criminal, so you won't go to jail, but they
have the right to tell you to stop it, and sue you for damages.
3. Supeonaing their phone records is dumb if you aren't sued, and
pointless if you are, because they have the law on their side.
I'm not saying that fansubs aren't a good thing, I think they are, but
they are (at one level or another) illegal. So if Shogakukan/Viz wanna
be assholes, they can be assholes. You can't do anything about it.
Unfortuantly. But, first, I think you should confirm it was Viz calling
and not someone pretending to be Viz.
Geo
Matthew E. Grossman
>From: C Sue Shambaugh <cs...@delphi.com>
>Subject: THIS IS RUMOR CONTROL - HERE ARE THE FACTS
>Date: Thu, 11 May 95 20:03:34 -0500
>Hello -
>
>Having perused the "Viz vs Anime Clubs" threads for the past
>couple of days, I thought it might be time the "the horse's mouth" to
>step in and set things straight.
>
>On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
>Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
>that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
>English any products owned by Shogakukan.
>
I've been steering clear of this thread because a) I thought it was just a
rumor, and b) whether to copy fansubs or buy is IMHO a religious issue, and
not really one worth arguing about. But now that it's real, I guess I'll toss
in my two cents (~1.5 yen, now, right?).
International copyright law is a big thing now, (I believe GATT contained a
number of articles strengthening it, and recently there was a bit of a fuss
about a treaty with China to control bootlegging there). It's possible that
the new emphasis on copyright law is what sparked this "crackdown".
Stricter copyright/intellectual property law is usually presented to the
public as being about protecting artists rights, but this is only part of the
story. The main point is that the entertainment industry is huge business,
and the people in charge of it feel that they are losing money to unlicensed
copying. Realistically, they probably are, but not as much as they say they
are. I'm not going to touch whether or not it's a good thing for the
entertainment industry to lose money, except to note that relatively little of
this money goes to the artists themselves (how much do grunt animators get
paid?). Of course, a few superstars make a lot of money (in our case, a
Miyazaki or Takahashi); but this is usually peanuts by comparison w/the money
that the companies themselves are making. (A Michael Jackson or Madonna
perhaps approaches the scale of a small corporation, but certainly not a
Bandai or Warner Brothers).
Of course, the really big losses to the
entertainment industry are in the countries like China (at least until
recently), where foreign goods are bootlegged, and the authorized releases are
never seen (because of course the bootleggers can sell their stuff cheaper).
Nexus is really small potatoes on this scale.
The other big force pushing for stronger intellectual property laws (and
this one is not being talked about so much) is biotechnology. A lot of
research is going on into studying genetic engineering, and it is believed
that this will make a lot of money (as far as I know, it hasn't yet, at least
not in significant way). The problem is, suppose you isolate a cure for
cancer from the genes of a Bolivian tree frog (or whatever)...who gets the
money? The country where the frog lives, where the original DNA came from, or
the company that isolated the cure? The DNA of the animals and plants that
live in a country is a major natural resource of that country...and under
these intellectual copyright laws, countries that do not have the wealth to
develop this themselves (like the countries where most of the worlds
population lives) are basically screwed, as foreign corporations can move in,
get rich off the DNA of a country's wildlife, and pay the country at most a
pittance. Of course, these companies say that since they are doing the work,
they should get paid...opinions differ.
Wow, that was a bit of a tangent, but I think it's important to have some
background in this debate.
So, back to the point, we can see that the current "crackdown" (really, not
much of a crackdown yet) is just part of a global trend. Now the point: I'm
sure that we all know exactly how effective the ongoing campaign against
software piracy has been. Software is easy to copy, and for many people (I've
seen the figure of half of all computer users, it's probably higher) the
temptation of being able to get it for free ("And anyway, it's not like
Microsoft is going to go bankrupt just 'cause I copy this one program.")
overcomes respect for the law.
For anime it's the same, (finally, a mention of anime) and copying of
U.S. commercial releases and Japanese imports will continue, as long as there
are two VCRs and a length of coax. There's really no way to stop this, unless
everyone suddenly developed a respect for copyright, which, realistically,
most people don't have, and are unlikely to have in the future.
So now we come to the question of fan-subbing. *How
do these companies think they can stop this?* A Genlok card is what, a few
hundred bucks (not unreasonable for a computer thingie), a LD player or VCR
player, another VCR...this is cheap (well, not really, but affordable for a
substantial chunk of the U.S. population). Fan-subbers are already not being
paid, so money is not the issue. Viz &co. might be able to stop large outfits
like Nexus & NT Anime, but the "four kids in a basement with an Amiga" can't
really be touched, not for legal reasons (what they are doing _is_ against the
law), but practical ones (are you going to search every basement?).
It will be harder for subtitlers and translators to communicate over the
Internet, and Venice might have to shut down...but realistically, I don't
believe that they will succeed at eliminating fansubs, or bootlegs for that
matter--just drive everything a bit more underground. And I don't think
that their sales will improve because of this...IMHO the damage to their
sales is coming from people copying _their_ tapes. The money that Viz &co are
going to spend on this could probably be better spent on something else...I
really wonder what they've been smoking.
*********************************************************************
Matt Grossman "He's a Leningrad Cowboy
meg...@hamp.hampshire.edu Raising cattle on the Net..."
http://hamp.hampshire.edu/~megF91
Tomar
>
>Having perused the "Viz vs Anime Clubs" threads for the past
>couple of days, I thought it might be time the "the horse's mouth" to
>step in and set things straight.
>
>On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
>Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
>that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
>English any products owned by Shogakukan.
This is kind of silly because you can't sue someone for knowldge of a
language. What if I did own a legit copy only in Japanese?
Can't I tell the people next to me what they are saying?
BTW, exactly what is Lopa's job in Viz's market department?
How long has she been working for Viz? I haven't heard of this
person until today. It's really hard to hear in the middle of Iowa. :-)
>In her words, "Vis *is* Shogakukan."
>
>This includes, I presume, every title they ever did or ever will
>release, whether Viz has any intentions of marketing it or not.
>
>She then asked me if I would go on the 'Net and ask all the fan
>translators to please stop posting translations, take them off the
>FTP sites, and (basically) quit doing that nasty stuff.
>
>She said that she doesn't care if people charge money for fan
>translations or not, and stated their intention to "go after" people who
>post at or carry translations on FTP sites.
This is highly "prickish" of them, but far from absurd. They are
entilted to there own opinion. A person can ask anyone do to anything
(well almost anything) to do something...it doesn't meen they have to.
>If Trish says this conversation never happened, then Trish is a liar.
>We have more than one phone on my house. Tom listened in on the
>extension, so there is a witness. Also, her own partner (Toshi)\
>confirmed the occurrrence in a conversation with a friend of mine.
>
>I will have Viz's phone records subpoenaed if necessary to prove that
>they called me.
I don't think that flamming Trish would be the wise thing here.
Afterall, she might not even know that Lopa talked to anyone.
>There's a lot more that I was told by Lopa, but I have neither
>the time nor the inclination to repeat it all here.
>
>I have prepared a statement for my customers about this situation, and
>it was a portion of this letter that Laurine White (get her name right,
>people!) reprinted in her newsletter without my knowledge. I have no
>knowledge that Laurine has any particular grudge against Viz. But then,
>until 6 weeks ago, neither did I.
>
>One statement that Lopa made to me on the phone, I will quote for you
>in its entirety:
>
>" Sue, you can translate any of Shogakukan's works you want to, as long
>as it's just for your personal pleasure. But the minute you show it to
>another living soul, that is a violation of our trademark."
This is still highly "prickish", but quite within the boundries of
the law. Why should you be upset at that?
>Infer what you will, fan-subbers. Also, fan artists.
>
>
>Sorry if this message is a bit messy; Delphi's net-poster
>and phone lines are both a bit cluttered and full of noise :-)
>
>Anyway, I think I flatter myself I have a good enough reputation that
>I need not be branded an hysteric NOR a liar on this Net.
>
>You may expect a full accounting from me of this matter in Anime UK;
>Helen McCarthy has solicited an article from me
>on this very topic.
>
>Don't bother replying to me here, or by e-mail; I'm sure with the
>number of responses I'm likely to get, I won't have time for either.
Sobering news indeed. I think it's about time that Viz make an
offical statement.
"God help us" if this is false. It will be even more tragic if
this is true. :-(
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
<http://helser14.res.iastate.edu>
My life quest: To find and watch all Ranma 1/2 episodes I can!!!!
Favorite Quote:
"Finals are coming, I'm almost out of money, and a
project is due. Is there anything else that could
go wrong?"
"Yes...Tenchi 8/9 are delayed..."
Tomar
Kagemusha <kage...@athena.mit.edu> wrote:
>well, after this letter and unless everyone's lying to everyone else, looks
>like Viz is full of it after all- so much for the peaceful cooperation and
>mutual existence idea- and no, I don't care that fansubbing is officially
>illegal- cheating on your taxes and jaywalking are illegal too and how many
>of you folks out there do it too?
I don't cheat on my taxes(afterall I can't understand them anyways :-)
and I would plead guilty to jaywalking. I would also plead guilty
to copyright infringement if I were caught. What would my defense
be? None. What would your defense be?
I fully realize I break the law and realize that if I get caught
the penalites that go with it.
Bradley Louis Kovacs
Subject: Re: THIS IS RUMOR CONTROL - HERE ARE THE FACTS
In article <3ouft9$8...@Mercury.mcs.com>, Enrique Conty <co...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>In article <Ja2frK...@delphi.com>, C Sue Shambaugh <cs...@delphi.com> wrote:
>>
>[Lopa from Viz fired a nastygram to Sue Shambaugh]
>
>Sobering information indeed.
>
>>If Trish says this conversation never happened, then Trish is a liar.
>
>It is to my understanding that this was never claimed. She only said
>that there was no grand plan orchestrated by Viz to rid the world of
>fan scripts. And, for the time being, this is correct.
I shudder to think that r.a.a will become a forum where fan translators
will have to post their scripts from anon accounts just to make
them available to other fans (which I can bet will most certainly
happen if Viz carries out their, may I say diabolical plan?)
I still don't understand Viz's motivation for this other then simple
greed..
>
>Even so, I recommend to Jay Harvey to stop distributing the fan subbers
>list he maintains, and to all fan script writers to stop posting their
>scripts to the net. Steve Pearl may want to remove Sue's mention in the
>r.a.a. FAQs, and so on.
These measures seem a bit extreme. I think until we learn more a wait
and see attitude is more appropriate.
>
>>You may expect a full accounting from me of this matter in Anime UK;
>>Helen McCarthy has solicited an article from me on this very topic.
I don't suppose you could post it to r.a.a for those of us who don't
get Anime UK could you? Just kidding.... ^_^
>
>Well, you just lit the fuse. Might as well send the article.
>--
Did you and I read the same article? It seems to me Viz lit the fuse
After all they contacted Sue....now I would like to hear from Viz
directly to see what they have to say, but I have no reason not
to trust what Sue has said.
> E n r i q u e C o n t y
> co...@mcs.com
> http://www.mcs.net/~conty/
> Looking for Heavy Metal July 1983 issue. Top dollar offered.
Brad "lacking a snappy sig" Kovacs
bra...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
John A. Kilpatrick
>If Trish says this conversation never happened, then Trish is a liar.
>We have more than one phone on my house. Tom listened in on the
>extension, so there is a witness. Also, her own partner (Toshi)\
>confirmed the occurrrence in a conversation with a friend of mine.
I don't think the existence of this phone call is in question. What was
confusing was that Laurine made it sound like Viz sent YOU a letter.
>Infer what you will, fan-subbers. Also, fan artists.
What I was told from an anonymous viz source *grin* was that their complaint
was that you were selling scripts of Ranma things that they hadn't gotten
to yet. The rights for all of ranma are owned in the u.s. and if you
are selling scripts, then I think that goes beyond a 'fan translation'.
>Don't bother replying to me here, or by e-mail; I'm sure with the
>number of responses I'm likely to get, I won't have time for either.
Uh...you can't exactly drop something like this and just walk away... :-)
--
******************************John A. Kilpatrick*******************************
* "Tsuki ni kawatte...oshiokiyo!" | I do not speak for ACS, UC Davis, or *
* Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon | anyone else. You have been warned. *
***************************jaki...@engr.ucdavis.edu***************************
Tony Yip
>Oh, yes! I forgot to mention one salient fact.
>Lopa said that she and other companies whom they have contacted are
>forming a non-profit group called something like the "Japanese Animation
>Legal Defense Fund," whose purpose it will be to track down and prosecute
>Illegal, immoral, and until now largely impervious fan translation. She
>claimed that the companies she had contacted were all for the idea and
>for participating. I suppose this will be something like the S/W group
>that got formed to try to stamp out disk copying.
I don't know what it stands for, but the acronym for it is "J.A.I.L." and
yes, this organization is being set up or is set up already.
Tony
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| I-CON XV |
| DATE: APRIL 14 - 16, 1996 |
| PLACE: STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AT STONY BROOK |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| What is I-Con? I-Con is East Coast's largest science fiction, anime, |
| comics, gaming, art, literature, movie, furry, and television convention. |
| For the latest update on ICON 15, call the ICON office at 516.632.6045 or |
| finger ty...@ic.sunysb.edu | Tony Yip, Vice President Animation |
|-----------------------| c/o ICON 15, PO Box 550, Stony Brook, NY 11790-0550 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Tony Yip
>to...@iastate.edu (Tomar) writes:
>
>>In article <Ja2frK...@delphi.com>, C Sue Shambaugh <cs...@delphi.com> wrote:
>>>On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
>>>Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
>>>that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
>>>English any products owned by Shogakukan.
>>This is kind of silly because you can't sue someone for knowldge of a
>>language. What if I did own a legit copy only in Japanese?
>>Can't I tell the people next to me what they are saying?
>should not photocopy their notes and distribute to their friends. Never
>mind that the script is useless if not used with the original Japanese
>feature and if the feature is an illegal copy then that is where the
>infringement is. Now Fan subbing, I can really understand if they
>decided to shut down Fan Subbers. But translations sans the feature?
Kill the head and the rest of the body will fall....
...or something like that....
Tony, he who nearly failed philosophy.... ^_^;
Tony Yip
> Well, I would like to suggest all fan subtitlers to pull together and
>figure out a way to thwart Viz's insolence. Whatever happens, don't stop
>subtitling anime. You wonder-workers are the backbone of anime fandom.
>The more there are of you, the more expensive it will be for Viz to take
>action. Pray Pioneer remains as humble as they have been.
Beware of "sleeping" giants (with big pockets)....
Tony
Andre A. Nurwono
>Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
>that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
>English any products owned by Shogakukan.
What a move. Whoever this Lopa is, he/she's gotta be downright STUPID.
First of all, she STEPS OVER their PUBLIC RELATIONS department to go on
a babbling spree, tarninshing everything that Viz ever worked for.
With an attitude like that, I am surprised Viz has not yet fired Lopa yet.
Moreover this guy does not seem to have the least knowledge of respectable
business. IMHO, they have no right to be doing business in that manner.
(But who knows Lopa might be just a pawn in the game. She gets the heat,
but some exec gets away with it... ^_^ heh heh 'been reading to much
Sanctuary conspiracies for my own good ... then again Viz might've
learned from it too.. :)
In any case, this blunder from Lopa has got to ruin Viz's image among
all anime fans.
The worst case scenario is a bloody battle between fans and Viz's legal
group. If it escalates that far, it will look bloody ugly, and will not
benefit any side. But if it does get that ugly, I am willing to make it
spread so that every anime fan knows they shouldn't be buying from Viz.
Heck, if they have an anti-anime fan attitude like that, anime fans around
the world should boycott them back. Let's see wether their products is
already as mainstream as their bungling idiot marketing dept. thought.
It's so clever, isn't it.
1. They're getting rid of fans who criticize their work and spreading
negative criticism towards their products, especially those who
have seen better through fan translated material.
2. They are forcing other anime companies to get along with them
to alienate true anime fans. Just think, what 'decent' clueless exec
would refuse something that has 'legal' backing, is 'non-profit',
and allegedly would 'boost their sales' ?
3. Finally, with the real fans gone, they won't have to worry about
catering to the 'real' fan market which means less cost for them.
The only flaw in that move is that they are totally wrong on benefitting
from it. And to think someone in their midst is smirking with glee to
see fandom go down the trash. Just clueless. Truly plain ignorance.
>In her words, "Vis *is* Shogakukan."
Here, I am going to BREAK THE LAW and DARE anyone to sue me.
I am going to reprint (quote), without permission, part of an article
from Anime UK no. 14: an interview with Toren Smith :
"How does the process of bringing a manga to the West work ?"
The first thing that happens is I go into a comic store in Japan
and see something I like; I look at the spine of the book and see
who the publisher is - if it's Shogakukan, things end right there.
If not...the next step is if this is a pain in the ass publisher or
not...some of the publishers over there should be shot! As Han Solo
says, 'No reward is worth this!' - that's true for Sunrise and
Bandai... I then ...
<bunch of lines deleted>
"What do you find the best part of the job is ?"
Going to Japan and getting blind drunk with people on their money!
"What's the worst part ?"
Dealing with lawyers!
^_^
>" Sue, you can translate any of Shogakukan's works you want to, as long
>as it's just for your personal pleasure. But the minute you show it to
>another living soul, that is a violation of our trademark."
Legal mumbo jumbo. Say, whoever invented any laws allowing this crap
deserves the worst possible life ever. I'm sorry, but these are NOT
Shogakukan's works. They're just distributing it. And so is Viz.
And so far, they're not doing a good job on anime.
And wether I run around doing stuff with what I have, including showing
copies to my friends is none of Viz's business. They have no right to
control someone's life like that. That sort of totalitarian, uncompromising
and threatening attitude has got to be the worst I've heard. I can't
believe any corporation would allow their employees to behave like that.
I thought one principle of a corporation is to satisfy their customers.
I see Lopa is doing the exact opposite. Just where did she get her degree
anyway ?
And don't worry about the title. I don't think that having a war on our
hands would do anyone any good. If worse comes to worse, I'd just pack
my bags and quit worrying about being an anime fan altogether. I guess
anime in the US was just not meant for us fans.
Blah.
<sulking somewhere and trying to find an outlet to vent my rage>
-a
--
Andre Nurwono | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
and...@cs.utexas.edu | thrust... (BOINNNG!)" - Daffy Duck
VINCENT B HO
than once to understand the wordings...
Re: Shambaugh vs. Viz
I am *not* going to comment extensively on what I think, but here is Section
107 of the Copyright Act:
"Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, the fair use of a copyrighted
work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by
any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism,
comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom
use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
fair use the factors to be considered shall include -
1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of
a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work."
If you guys still have some problem determining it, here is the
supreme court decision on "Sony Corp v. Universal City Studio"
(Supreme Court of the United States, 1985. 464 U.S. 417, 104 S.Ct. 774,
78 L.Ed.2d 574)
<Sony was sued by Universal, because Sony made VCRs which helped widespread
tape-recording of Universal owned TV shows by the general public. By the
time it reached the supreme court, Sony was appealing...>
<Decision: Supreme Court decided that Sony was NOT liable...>
"The Court concluded that to challenge a noncommercial use of a copyrighted
work, proof is required that either 1.the particular use is harmful or
2. if such a use should become widespread, it would adversely affect the
market for the copyrighted work. Balancing these factors, the Court found
that home taping of the copyrighted programs is a "fair use""
My rational:
1. Sue published and sold her "notes" on Shogakkukan titles
which were not published here....commentary/criticism/education of Japanese
language.
2. Fans who have the Japanese version of these titles bought the notes.
3. Sue did not earn a single penny, her fees only cover the mailing cost
and paper cost...it is a non-profit educational benefit for "students".
4. Fans learn Japanese by reading Sue's notes and correspond back to
their Japanese mangas....for educational purposes.
5. Since the titles were not published here, there was no financial
damaged done to Viz...there is no market in the first place to be adversely
affected.
6. In fact, even if Sue were to published and sell translation of
published mangas by Viz, it can be argued as "criticism"....since
fans will presumed to be buying the original Viz copies to understand
the original Viz translation better...Sue herself was not liable for
contributory infringement.
Copyright protection does not "accord the copyright owner absolute
control over all possible uses of his work."
Draw your conclusion. If you are not sure, re-read the Copyright Act,
section 107 again.....about fair uses.
BTW, if someone actually dub a Viz copy, that's a violation all the way.
If someone draw a T shirt of Ranma and sell it for profit, it will be
called "Appropriation"...equally illegal.
Mass copying a US publication of "Divina Comedia (Italian)" and sell
them is illegal, but copying your own translation of that book (from
italian into English) and sell them to your students for minimal fees
is OK. Otherwise most of you students will be all having cramps from
copying notes from the teacher when he writes on the blackboard...^_^
I'm not a lawyer, so my idea is worthless....
keke
--
[9C [0;5;35m* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * [35m* [0;35m
Vince B. Ho * Forza Fiorentina! 7-5: Roma2 Viola0
San Francisco State Univerisity * 14-5: a Foggia
MBA Student * Club Viola Signorelli Firenze
(415)345-9977 * Scuderia Minardi: Martini e Badoer
h...@sfsu.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Hail to the Redskins! * Shoujo, CLAMP, Seiyuu, MG, H & ACO ML
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[0m [255D
Kagemusha
like Viz is full of it after all- so much for the peaceful cooperation and
mutual existence idea- and no, I don't care that fansubbing is officially
illegal- cheating on your taxes and jaywalking are illegal too and how many
of you folks out there do it too?
K
I gave you my Music
Made your Song take Wind
And now how you've repaid me
Denied me and Betrayed me - Phantom
KAGEMUSHA
Tomar
Stephen Willaman <ez04...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> Hi, it's me, the guy who started the Viz vs Anime Clubs thread. Well, I
>guess my "bogus rumor" isn't so fictitious afterall, hmm....
>
> Well, I would like to suggest all fan subtitlers to pull together and
>figure out a way to thwart Viz's insolence. Whatever happens, don't stop
>subtitling anime. You wonder-workers are the backbone of anime fandom.
>The more there are of you, the more expensive it will be for Viz to take
>action. Pray Pioneer remains as humble as they have been.
My god...you are starting to rant and rave as if this is a holly
war.
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
<http://helser14.res.iastate.edu>
My life quest: To find and watch all Ranma 1/2 episodes I can!!!!
Favorite Quote:
"Leave me alone...I'm watching Anime!"
Stephen Willaman
guess my "bogus rumor" isn't so fictitious afterall, hmm....
Well, I would like to suggest all fan subtitlers to pull together and
figure out a way to thwart Viz's insolence. Whatever happens, don't stop
subtitling anime. You wonder-workers are the backbone of anime fandom.
The more there are of you, the more expensive it will be for Viz to take
action. Pray Pioneer remains as humble as they have been.
-Stephen
C Sue Shambaugh (cs...@delphi.com) wrote:
: One statement that Lopa made to me on the phone, I will quote for you
: in its entirety:
:
: " Sue, you can translate any of Shogakukan's works you want to, as long
: as it's just for your personal pleasure. But the minute you show it to
: another living soul, that is a violation of our trademark."
: - C Sue Shambaugh
: 12-year fan translator
Matt Seitz
>
>Lopa said that she and other companies whom they have contacted are
>forming a non-profit group called something like the "Japanese
Animation
>Legal Defense Fund," whose purpose it will be to track down and
prosecute
>Illegal, immoral, and until now largely impervious fan translation.
Trish Ledoux of Viz also mentioned an anime legal defense fund to me in
an e-mail note some months ago. I sent a reply asking for more
information, thinking that such an organization might help me in
obtaining permissions for our monthly anime screening. Unfortunately,
I never received a reply.
--
----------
Matt Seitz
No-Name Anime
se...@ix.netcom.com
Christopher Taylor Oates
THis is all very nice, but I thought we would finally find out, once and
for all, exactly WHO is a boomer....... :)
~Chris
--
__ /\ __
__\/__\/__
\_||_/
/__||__\
// \ | \\
\|
John A. Kilpatrick
>Oh, yes! I forgot to mention one salient fact.
>
>Lopa said that she and other companies whom they have contacted are
>forming a non-profit group called something like the "Japanese Animation
>Legal Defense Fund," whose purpose it will be to track down and prosecute
>Illegal, immoral, and until now largely impervious fan translation. She
>claimed that the companies she had contacted were all for the idea and
>for participating. I suppose this will be something like the S/W group
>that got formed to try to stamp out disk copying.
>
>Also, because I did not agree to go out of the translation business altogether,
>and despite the fact that I offered to not translate anything by Shogakukan
>if they would just send me a list of the verboten titles, she has deemed that
>I have a "bad attitude" and is said to be contemplating going to Tokuma
>Shoten to tattle to them about the fact that I have translated a portion of
>the Legends of Galactic Heroes series.
>
>If this is not petty, I don't know what is.
>
>This has all been confirmed through Toshi via a friend of mine. If that
>friend would be so kind as to step forward, identify himself publicly,
>and tell what he knows, I think this would be the appropriate time. It
>would also provide the good folks here at r.a.a with a confirming source
>that they already know and trust.
Yeah, but this is what Lopa said. If she forms official policy for Viz, then
fine. But if Trish were to deny these statements, what would that mean?
Sharon Westfall
: In article <3ouqp4$5...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
: John A. Kilpatrick <jaki...@jalisco.engr.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Yeah, but this is what Lopa said. If she forms official policy for Viz, then
: >fine. But if Trish were to deny these statements, what would that mean?
: That the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing?
Oh Tri-ish.... Are you here? Can you provide us with the "official"
word from Vis. Who is this Lopa person and what position is she is she
at Vis?
A couple of things to add (My 2 cents):
1. Had it not been for fan subs, my impression of anime would have
stopped at Speed Racer and those silly kids in costumes called Power Rangers.
2. Hayao Miyazaki would be an unknown name, and I would have never
dreamed of picking up *any* copies of a cartoon called My Neighbor Totoro.
3. Anime is getting popular, but by no means, mainstream. With out
fan works providing "free" publicity, it would remain small potatoes.
Arcadia, The Pirate Queen
> >On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
> >that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
> >English any products owned by Shogakukan.
There's not much they can do about it. If I want to translate something,
there's nothing they can do to stop me. Besides, how would they even
know? I suppose if I posted one of my scripts to an FTP site or
something, they could eventually find out who did it, but it seems like
alot of trouble. Even if this is true, I doubt we have much to worry about.
> This is kind of silly because you can't sue someone for knowldge of a
> language. What if I did own a legit copy only in Japanese?
> Can't I tell the people next to me what they are saying?
Like I said before, how would they even know? Assuming they had the legal
rights to go after translators (which I doubt they do), they can't do
anything to you unless they know you're doing it.
> >She then asked me if I would go on the 'Net and ask all the fan
> >translators to please stop posting translations, take them off the
> >FTP sites, and (basically) quit doing that nasty stuff.
Uh, yeah. Sure. I'll stop right now *wink*.
> >She said that she doesn't care if people charge money for fan
> >translations or not, and stated their intention to "go after" people who
> >post at or carry translations on FTP sites.
Heh. Good luck.
-Arcadia
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|e-mail: |Phatt's 2nd law of culinary numerology: |
|cka...@knox.edu|All calories in chocolate can be ignored. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Douglas Leo Eckhart
It looks like Anime Expo and Anime America will be very interesting this
year...
Well, I guess I've only been into anime for a year... Not too much of a
loss... I suppose I should start looking for a new hobby... After
watching the America's Cup this year I've been really inspired by
Sailing. :-) The sun, the ocean, what more could you ask for... Maybe
I'll finally get a good suntan, something that doesn't come easy with
anime fandom. :-)
Sorry, I don't mean to downplay the gravity of the situation. I think
we'll just have to wait and see where Viz and the other companies go from
here. With half of the Viz organization speaking of this plan to stamp
out fansubbers and the other half denying it, it is hard to know what to
think. Hopefully there will be something that covers it in the next
Animerica. If Viz is really out to stop fansubbing and translation, one
would think that they would not be ashamed to make a clear statement...
..............................................................................
. D. Eckhart ."... the WWWA always functions in the interests .
. red...@raz.csc.ncsu.edu . of all mankind. It's guiding philosophy is the .
. dlec...@eos.ncsu.edu . 'enrichment of life.' ... " - Kei, Lovely Angel.
..............................................................................
Anthony J Carmen
then before. I can't stand people who do something and don't
have the guts to stand on the fire line for doing it. Some
people just make me sick. I would like to hear Trish's response
to this topic, but I won't hope for much.
My opinion of fansubtitling is if it for free - do it, if not then
don't. Too much laws and regulation make my stomach wrench.
----------------------------
If I hear that 'Life like a box of cholates' line AGAIN, then I'm going to
come out of retirement. <over heard from conversation in a burger
joint after the mysterious death of Forest Gump by lead poisoning>
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
TheBaron http://www.pitt.edu/~ajcst10 & http://www.pitt.edu/~wrbst6
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
Markmeister
> For the time being, yes, but I don't think I am alone in thinking that it is
> only a matter of time before they DO go after fan scripts and fan subbers.
> I think it is time to start organizing a boycott of Viz products. If we can
> people to stop buying their products, and (even better) stores to stop carrying
> them, maybe we can nip this in the bud.
There is no &^%$@@ing need for this. Will everyone just think a thought here?
It's a false rumor, just meant to start a stupid, useless flamewar against VIZ.
And no matter which way you put it, fansubs are, and always will be, illegal.
This boycott talk is absurd. How the hell can you propose of doing this to VIZ
when they have not done anything wrong?
....C'mon, enough of this bull.....
M. Mckenzie
St. Peter's College
"Sorry...I was, ah, staring at your breasts."
---Duckman
"Get in the fight or get out of the way!!"
Anthony J Carmen
because they Dub and Sub at the same time....but after I save up
enough for that Pioneer LD (too damn expensive )
Walter M. Amos
Matt Seitz <se...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Trish Ledoux of Viz also mentioned an anime legal defense fund to me in
>an e-mail note some months ago. I sent a reply asking for more
>information, thinking that such an organization might help me in
>obtaining permissions for our monthly anime screening. Unfortunately,
>I never received a reply.
I think this is possibly indiciative of my theory that all this is nothing
more than a scare tactic to choke off fan subtitles at the source to keep
them out of the hands of bootleggers. They have no real intention of
seriously going after anybody by legal means. I mean, if they haven't
dragged genuine, honest-to-goodness, known bootleggers into court yet do
you really think they're gonna do it to nonprofit fans doing translations
for which a very serious case can be made that their work is for
educational purposes and thus nonpresecutable? No way. cf. this
discussion, I append a copy of my argument posted a few days ago in case
you haven't seen it. If you have, ignore what follows:
Subject: A NEW perspective on the Viz fan translator crackdown
Well, I last night received a lengthy letter detailing the negative
contacts Viz has had with a few individuals over their apparent "cease and
desist" policy toward fan translators such as Sue Shambaugh.
This topic has been touched on before in this forum, some weeks ago. I
believe this is a different phenomenon than the "crackdown on clubs"
discussion which is going on in another thread and which, as far as I know,
is an unsubstantiated rumor. The direct threats against several fan
translators is however real and confirmed. Whether this is truly a company
wide policy on Viz's part directed by its head leadership or the actions of
an overzealous employee are not entirely clear, however.
In any case, in discussion of this matter with some very knowledgeable
people, a new idea was raised as to why this may be happening which has not
yet been discussed here as far as I've seen. To me this seems like the
most plausible explanation I have yet heard, and I felt it bore sharing
with the rest of the anime fan netters...
It is well known that unfortunately numerous for-profit tape bootleggers
continue to exist in many areas. Viz, AnimEigo, and other companies have
made many requests to the concerned fans to report the actions of these
people. This has been done. But what happens after this? In general, the
response so far on the part of genuine anime importers like these has been
to send legal "cease and desist" orders to all the proven illegal
bootleggers that could be found.
But what exactly is a "cease and desist" order? It is a legal document,
prepared by a lawyer, notifying the recipient that his actions are in
violation of another's copyrights and trademarks, and demanding he cease
illegal activity. Most people, especiually law-abiding fans, find such
letter quite frightening and try to comply for fear of evil lawyers. But
these documents actually carry *no* legal weight whatsoever. They are not
warrants nor subpoenas. For illegal bootleggers, who are already
unconcerned about flouting the law to begin with, these things are meaning
less. I have heard reports of bootleggers who actually paper their walls
with cease and desist orders.
Thus far no one, not Viz, not Animeigo, no one, has actually taken the next
step and hauled one of these illegal bootleggers into court after continued
violation of the cease and desist order. The reason is simple - court
proceedings of this nature are very expensive and the damages won from the
bootlegger will likely not even be enough to cover court costs, if that.
But if they are unwilling to actually prosecute the bootlegger, how then to
stop him from selling his ill-gotten tapes? Simple. By stopping his
acquisition of tapes at the source - the fan translators and subtitlers.
Now a simple cease and desist order issued against a fan has no more weight
than it does against a bootlegger *except in the mind of the fan*. Most
fan translators and subtitlers, attempting as best they can to stay on the
right side of the law while at the same time spreading awareness of anime
they enjoy which hasn't made it over here yet, stop distribution of any
titles once they are commercially licensed here. This indicates a repsect
for the law and a genuine desire not to work against the interest of the
professional companies. As a result, people such as those at Viz issuing
these threats against fan groups know that they can be cowed into
submission with only a minimum of effort, and thus the flow of anime into
the subsequent dirty hands of bootleggers will be slowed or stopped.
To my mind this explanation is by far the most plausible I have heard. I
am sure that Viz et al. are well aware that they can't possibly drag fan
translators into court; they will have an even more shaky case than against
the bootleggers and even less to gain in compensation. The only possible
rationale for this activity then has to be to simply frighten fans into
towing the party line and not viewing any anime which does not come
through the professional companies.
If this turns out to be the case, I think it is an extremely bad idea.
Not merely for being extremly hurtful and disingenuous to the very people
who created the niche market they are now trying to exploit, but also
because this will slow the growth of anime aficionados and thus hurt their
own future sales in the long run. I also believe that fan translators and
subtitlers should not be cowed by baseless threats, but should continue to
pursue a policy of co-existence and co-operation with professional
companies and continue to support the licensed releases of anime as they
become available in the US.
Well, I leave these ideas for discussion and debate. I welcome any
response from fans or industry professionals. In closing I should state
that this should not be construed as an anti-Viz or anti-anybody post.
I am not recommending that people write angry letters nor that they stop
buying Viz products. I am merely trying to encourage some understanding of
these issues which have many people in fandom concerned.
==============================================================================
"Zu jeder Zeit, an jeder (sic) Ort, bleibt das Tun | Walter Amos
der Menschen das gleiche..." - Galactic Heroes II | am...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Anthony J Carmen
will take them out (hopefully real soon)...
VIZ dying would not make me cry after the damn selection of voices for
the Ranma 1/2 dubs. I wish I had more money then I know what to
do with then I would do it right for anime....
Anthony J Carmen
big time...
Steve Pearl
>In article <ZC7eTm...@delphi.com> C Sue Shambaugh <cs...@delphi.com> writes:
>>Oh, yes! I forgot to mention one salient fact.
>>Lopa said that she and other companies whom they have contacted are
>>forming a non-profit group called something like the "Japanese Animation
>>that got formed to try to stamp out disk copying.
>I don't know what it stands for, but the acronym for it is "J.A.I.L." and
>yes, this organization is being set up or is set up already.
>Tony
I was under the Impression it was pronounced Jailed F - Japanese
Animation Legal Defence Fund (JAILD F)
Steve
---
Stephen Pearl (Starbuck)
Internet: star...@cybercom.com
QUOTES: "What is Starbuck-ing?" -Adultress 19
"Works for me!" -Rick Hunter (The Cop, not the Robotech Defender)
Steve Pearl
>In article <3ounou$n...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
>>figure out a way to thwart Viz's insolence. Whatever happens, don't stop
>>subtitling anime. You wonder-workers are the backbone of anime fandom.
>>The more there are of you, the more expensive it will be for Viz to take
>>action. Pray Pioneer remains as humble as they have been.
>My god...you are starting to rant and rave as if this is a holly
>war.
TO many people it is. FAWOL.
Stainless Steel Rat
Arcadia> There's not much they can do about it. If I want to translate
Arcadia> something, there's nothing they can do to stop me.
If you do it for yourself, there is no problem. Making a translation for
your own personal use falls under fair use.
The moment your translation reaches someone else's hands, you are in
violation of international copyright law. It is not they who did the
translation, it was not their original materials used. Therefore, you
would be completely in the wrong, and so would they. You may not agree
with it, but THAT'S THE LAW.
Arcadia> Besides, how would they even know?
Did you stop to think that people like Trish and Trebor are themselves
fans? Did you stop to think that they might have contacts in the
fansubbing arena? Of course you didn't. You didn't stop to think at all.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Sei J. Lee
>THis is all very nice, but I thought we would finally find out, once and
>for all, exactly WHO is a boomer....... :)
> ~Chris
Well, obviously, everyone at VIZ is a boomer:)
Sei Jin Lee
Kevin Alexander
with PGP keys... I already hate using it, but it's the safest way to get
things through the 'net.
--
Kevin Alexander HF Society C H I L L
red...@aloha.net 'Anyone for a game of BOX?' T O W N P
"I'm crazy mad in love with you!" - Kudo Shizuka R O D U C
----> Redhook ESB is the BEST! <---- T I O N S
"Get the picture?" "Even got the frame."
Enrique Conty
John A. Kilpatrick <jaki...@jalisco.engr.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>
>Yeah, but this is what Lopa said. If she forms official policy for Viz, then
>fine. But if Trish were to deny these statements, what would that mean?
That the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing?
Given recent developments, I'm willing to believe this.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@mcs.com
http://www.mcs.net/~conty/
Looking for Heavy Metal July 1983 issue. Top dollar offered.
Enrique Conty
Bradley Louis Kovacs <kova...@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
>In article <3ouft9$8...@Mercury.mcs.com>, Enrique Conty <co...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>
>>Even so, I recommend to Jay Harvey to stop distributing the fan subbers
>>list he maintains, and to all fan script writers to stop posting their
>>scripts to the net. Steve Pearl may want to remove Sue's mention in the
>>r.a.a. FAQs, and so on.
>
>These measures seem a bit extreme. I think until we learn more a wait
>and see attitude is more appropriate.
It doesn't seem extreme to me, not at this point. The last thing we need
right now is to give easy targets to anyone who's aiming for us.
Anthony J Carmen
something....which seems to be going on here.... If I do some
thing for free (NO profit or at a lost), then be nice enough to
remove it from release when the company plans to release it. I
understand the companies are in it for the buck, but money is not
everything.
I have not read all posts on this and related subjects, so If I
missed anything, then oh well(I skim through because of time
restrictions).
Stephen Willaman
: My god...you are starting to rant and rave as if this is a holly
: war.
Sorry. I was a *little* excited. Now that I've calmed down, I'd like to
rationalize.
1) What is at stake if Viz does cripple the fansubbing network?
2) Even if Viz doesn't accomplish Operation Death Star(^_^), fandom will
collapse anyways!
3) Widespread distribution of anime (trans/non-trans) isn't RIGHT in the
first place.
My thoughts,
1) The number of video pirates will increase either out of dissention or
necessity. Unless you have connections, plan on spending more money for
your favorite titles.
2) Anime is going to become very popular in the States. This means huge
revenues for those companies involved. Sooner or later, the acquisition
effeciency of these companies will be so high, no fansubber will be able
to translate and distribute very much before a commercial version of the
anime is out in the market.
3) It was nice while it lasted. Give the companies a chance. They'll get
better and eventually everyone will be happy. Ahhh...
Don't forget that fansubbed titles will always be available. It'll just
be a pain in the ass to find.
-Stephen
aki...@cris.com
In article <3ouua6$p...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com>, <g...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com>
writes:
> Without quoting the entire message, here are some comments.
>
> 1. Did you ever consider that the person calling was NOT from Viz, but just
> somebody had a grudge against them?
In Sue's defense, Lopa does have a distinctive voice. OTOH, this is plausible.
Snip>
> 3. Supeonaing their phone records is dumb if you aren't sued,
Sue said she would subpeona their records to prove she was -called-, not to sue
them.
Gilles Poitras
<rat...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> The moment your translation reaches someone else's hands, you are in
> violation of international copyright law. It is not they who did the
> translation, it was not their original materials used. Therefore, you
> would be completely in the wrong, and so would they. You may not agree
> with it, but THAT'S THE LAW.
Not quite, this is a grey area in copyright law.
If you sell a translation it is illegal.
If you give a few away its legal for educational or research purposes.
If you give copies away on a mass basis such as making them available on
FTP, well that's another matter & probably illegal.
Now I'm dealing with translation here, the issue of attaching a
translation to a video as in fan subbing and then distributing it without
permission is illegal.
It is also the way in which most folks have been exposed (at club showings
etc) to anime. Fan subbing has been a major method of promotion of anime
out side of Japan. Now with more companies seeing the value of the
U.S./U.K. market the need for fan-subs will decrease.
I have been an anime fan since the late 70s, but I would not have bought a
VCR and spent the amount of money I do on commercially available tapes if
I had not seen so many fan subbed anime at club meetings.
Sonya Choi Lee
>One statement that Lopa made to me on the phone, I will quote for you
>in its entirety:
>
>" Sue, you can translate any of Shogakukan's works you want to, as long
>as it's just for your personal pleasure. But the minute you show it to
>another living soul, that is a violation of our trademark."
^^^^^^^^^
Given that Lopa can't even tell the difference between trademark law and
copyright law, I wouldn't give her legal threats much credulance.
Although you guys might be scared about a legal crackdown, I don't think
you should be that worried. Think about it this way:
- Translator X does a fan translation in Nevada.
- It gets posted in an FTP site in Alaska.
- Fansubber Y uses the script to sub it in Florida.
- Distributor Z makes copies of it in North Dakota.
- Fans 1,2, and 3 receive it in all different states.
Now, if you were Viz's lawyer, you'd tell them that court costs would be
in the tens of thousands of dollars to bring down any of those people.
It just ain't worth it.
You'd have to fly out the lawyers to the proper venues (in this case, any
of the different states). You'd have to hire legal experts (high tech
law is in it's infancy and bringing suit against a fan-subber is pretty
much new territory). These experts cost upwards of $5,000 *per day.*
Hell, they could be sitting in their hot tub reading over the case and
Viz would still get charged for a day's work. Not to mention legal fees,
court costs, wasting Viz manpower, etc.
Actually my graduation writing requirement at law school is on law on the
Internet. From this experience I can assure you that any fansubber on
the net case would be *so* complex that Viz would go bankrupt in legal
fees before it even gets to court.
Disney on the other hand...
Bell-chan
Steven E Barnes
Ryan Mathews <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Isn't it? Or at least as holy as anything gets in anime fandom? I
>mean, an attack on fan-translating strikes at the very heart of anime
>fandom, at one of the fundamental bricks the whole house is built on.
>their mouths.
[...]
>What gets me is not that this action by Viz is "wrong". They have
>every right to protect their assets. What gets me is the implicit
>ingratitude. If it wasn't for fan-translators and fan-subbers, there
>would *be no* anime fandom in the U.S., and no market for their
>stinkin' tapes.
Kids these days... I remember watching grainy fifth-generation
tapes of Macross DYRL in Japanese, and being *damn glad* too ^_^
Anime fans were around before fan-subtitling; we will persist
even if "evil corporations" shut fan-subtitlers down. They cannot
stop you from buying the original material from Japan, and they
cannot stop the flow of anonymously produced scripts over the internet.
We will just have to wake up to the fact that tape duplication is
illegal. Unsanctioned public showings of anime for hundreds of people
is illegal.
As Macek loves to point out, we otaku are a small percentage of
the potential viewing audience. Viz may have to please us now,
but when anime really goes mainstream, we will become irrelevant
to their marketting plans.
-steve
Enrique Conty
Steven Miale <smi...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>In article <greyD8I...@netcom.com>,
>
>> i know Trish Ledoux personally, and there's _NOTHING_ that i've
>>been informed of EVER which IN ANY WAY suggests that Viz is planning
>>ANYTHING about actively stopping fan scripts or subs.
>
>So why did Viz call Sue Shambaugh and threaten her and other fan
>translators?
Trish is not Viz.
Tomar
Geoffrey Scott <g...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com> wrote:
>Without quoting the entire message, here are some comments.
>
>1. Did you ever consider that the person calling was NOT from Viz, but just
>somebody had a grudge against them?
Another I've been worried about is exactly which questions did they
ask Lopa? I can get people to say lots of things and quote it back
to others saying "Look! They said it!" when all I did was entrap
them or ask them 'half truths'. What exactly did you ask her?
>2. It is within their legal right to go after you. If Shogakukan owns
>any of the copyright of an anime (like it was licensed from one of their
>manga titles or whatever), they have EVERY RIGHT to go after you. You
>are doing something that is illegal. Now, this is obviously NOT in Viz's
>best interests, and it really, really bites, but they still have the
>right to tell you to knock it off. I believe international copyrights
>are civil crimes only, not criminal, so you won't go to jail, but they
>have the right to tell you to stop it, and sue you for damages.
Yes...it's totally there perogrative. If they want to persue, they
can. What bothers me is the fact that they might crush psuedo-legit
fansubbing groups with this action.
>3. Supeonaing their phone records is dumb if you aren't sued, and
>pointless if you are, because they have the law on their side.
I don't think anyone will doubt that there was a phone call.
It proves nothing either way. What's more important is the content
of the conversation, not the time and place.
>I'm not saying that fansubs aren't a good thing, I think they are, but
>they are (at one level or another) illegal. So if Shogakukan/Viz wanna
>be assholes, they can be assholes. You can't do anything about it.
>Unfortuantly. But, first, I think you should confirm it was Viz calling
>and not someone pretending to be Viz.
I've asked Viz to make an offical statement....so far nothing.
The longer they wait, the more confused this issue will become.
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
<http://helser14.res.iastate.edu>
My life quest: To find and watch all Ranma 1/2 episodes I can!!!!
Favorite Quote:
"Leave me alone...I'm watching Anime!"
Tomar
Steven Miale <smi...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>In article <greyD8I...@netcom.com>,
[trimming]
>> i know Trish Ledoux personally, and there's _NOTHING_ that i've
>>been informed of EVER which IN ANY WAY suggests that Viz is planning
>>ANYTHING about actively stopping fan scripts or subs.
>
>So why did Viz call Sue Shambaugh and threaten her and other fan
>translators? And remember, a fan sub *is* a translation, so anyone
>distributing fansubs will be just as guilty in their eyes as someone
>who distributes the actual paper script.
Wrong...Lopa called Sue not Viz.
Something that has been bothering me from the start has been
why did Lopa call Sue? It wasn't mentioned in the posting.
There is something that doesn't feel right here.
>> If you care about Japanese animation and comics soooo goddamned
>>much, learn the fucking language! ... Buy the originals!
>
>I am, and I have.
>
>> Stop being so innane. Boycotting Viz is about the dumbest thing
>>i've ever heard.
>
>I don't see any other company taking such a heavy handed approach on the
>very people who helped them get started in the first place.
I'd been anoyed too if anyone was acting ungreatfull to me, but you
shouldn't let it rule your life.
Grey Death - Digital Target
: only a matter of time before they DO go after fan scripts and fan subbers.
: I think it is time to start organizing a boycott of Viz products. If we can
: people to stop buying their products, and (even better) stores to stop carrying
: them, maybe we can nip this in the bud.
: Steve
Uh... hello? Paranoia? If it weren't for Viz 50+% of the
translated anime and manga wouldn't even be _availible_ for you to peruse.
i know Trish Ledoux personally, and there's _NOTHING_ that i've
been informed of EVER which IN ANY WAY suggests that Viz is planning
ANYTHING about actively stopping fan scripts or subs.
Get a grip... the industry has GAINED more from Viz in the past
decade than anyone could take away. Take it from someone who's been
watching/reading anime & manga for over ninteen years, there isn't going
to be any more of a crack-down on fansubs than there has been in the past.
Just a reminder... distribution of fan subs IS illegal. It
always has been, and it likely always will be.
Not that i care, but then, when i first got into anime just about
everything to be found in the U.S. was illegally duped tapes. ;) And i'd
still rather show my friends a copy of my fan subbed Nausica`a' than my
legal copy of Warriors of the Wind.
My personal recommendation:
If you care about Japanese animation and comics soooo goddamned
much, learn the fucking language! {And yes, that what i've been doing
for the past five years} Buy the originals! If you can't afford them,
then don't complain to me! Free and illegal distribution of fan sub
works, even if they are more accurate to the original story-line than
Company X's dub/sub, doesn't justify not actually purchasing the
original. You are not re-embercing the creators of the original
work by distributing copies of your fan sub to those not actually owning
the original work yourselves. How do i justify owning fan subs? i buy
the originals! It's a little less hypocritical, don't you think?
Stop being so innane. Boycotting Viz is about the dumbest thing
i've ever heard.
Flame on, i haven't read r.a.a. on a regular basis since over
three years ago.
-Grey
Grey Death, Digital Target
"They scream into my ears, but what they say only makes me deaf."
-Claus Larsen
gr...@netcom.com
Wes Harrell
: My thoughts,
: 3) It was nice while it lasted. Give the companies a chance. They'll get
: better and eventually everyone will be happy. Ahhh...
But in the logic of buisness.....
Currently we have the 'fandom' able to criticize the quality of a
company's works on the basis that they have seen the original material
and can recognize flaws and inconsitancies with their product- thus
complain/comment about it. Thus there is pressure to 'fix' and
improve their product. If there were no fansubbing, translating,etc
widely available, 'Joe Viewer' then probably would not recognize faults
and complain as much. Logically, without as much complaints, a company's
liable to just ignore and not improve as much or change anything.
Get rid of the capability for the users to truly judge the
product, you lessen the need to change/correct it.
As it takes quite a bit of resources for getting the 'original'
material (due to availability,language barrier,etc) - the fans have
turned to the fansubs to enjoy the art for quite some time. What
is happening now is that having this around does increase the
'pickyness' of the fans and has helped create/maintain the anime
'purist' crowd. Obviously, their voices are 'heard' on the net
a lot when new stuff is produced. I'm sure some of the people
at the video companies would like less complaints on "That voice
doesn't match the original character" or that "Why did they change
that joke around".
A lot of new anime fans do get into recognizing the actual
'art' of anime thru clubs and seeing the fansubs of shows.
Unfortunately, this also somewhat educates them in how
what's released here can get changed around, thru translation
or dubbing. Then they can be more discriminating against a
product. With limited access to the original material
and without any fansubs around whatsoever, a new fan wouldn't
have as much of a chance to really learn or appreciate the
detail of the changes, and would tend to create another
group of fans technically not knowing what the best of an
anime could be-who would take anything put to the market
more at face value - a 'controlled' group.
:Don't forget that fansubbed titles will always be available. It'll just
:be a pain in the ass to find.
Oh yeah, I don't think that current fansubs will really go away
much. If major legal actions were taken, it may cause some probs
with current distribution,etc (like net availability,etc) but
they'll be around somewhere. Fansubs started/maintained the
appreciation of anime outside of Japan. Just because companies
want to cut off the fan's source of knowledge of the art,
doesn't mean it'll succeed. Too many people have been involved
for too long in the hobby to be able to just shut it off totally.
Now most of all this is basically one viewpoint from one angle
on this. The examples above are really more of an extreme case
of the reasons and results- so take whatever thoughts with
a grain of shio....
(Hey, doing this w/o any sleep....
I can probably think up a few more scenarios ^_^ )
(Maybe even end up with this thread in an alt.conspiracy
newsgroup??? ^_^ )
I can definitely understand the other sides of it-
the fact that the bootleggers are _selling_ the fansubs has
always been a bit of a problem. I am definitely against that
part of the problem. Destroying the production of
fansubs would definitely stop 1 major source of material for
them to sell. I also see how this could be good against
bootleggers who would sell copies of the tapes already
distributed by the video companies (VIZ,Animeigo,etc)
- although that part seems it should be handeled more thru the
FBI,etc and be able to be handled easier....
But stopping fansubs/translations of anime not being currently
distributed here isn't going to help ether side in the long run.
-Wes
(Why the heck do I always end up trying to write meaningful,
understandable news when I'm barely awake? ^_^. If I offended
anyone by the above, Gomen.)
----
Wes Harrell Wes_H_ (#Anime!) |w...@hurl.eng.wayne.edu/w...@ic.net
Lum Worshipper... | "Umeboshi......UMEBOSHI!!!!!!!
Ventura Ventura, Space People... | ...hic! "
Gotta work sometime, ne? ^_^;; | -----A pickled Lum.....^_^
Eric T. Cheng
: In Hong Kong at least, the Japanese companies came up with a
: revolutionary solution....they found they biggest & most successful of
: the video pirates & hired them as subtittlers & distributors! According
: to the last Dr. Lent had heard, the new Hong Kong distributor was
: making a killing by beating his competition with the latest releases &
: by using other pirates in his organization.
: See what happens when your first thought isn't to sue the pants off
: somebody?
If you can't beat them, buy them! ;) Now maybe a company should get
Nexus Studios to do their subtitling for them (I've found that the Nexus
fansubs of Tench Muyo were better than Pioneer's subs...).
--
Eric "money talks" Cheng
UofO Anime Club's Founder and Former-President
s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca
e...@capitalnet.com
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/ (my own homepage)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/animeclub.html (UofO Anime Club's homepage)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/adp.html (ADP Files homeapge)
http://www.capitalnet.com/~etc/nene.html (Nene-chan Shrine homepage)
Justin
>In article <3ov99b$q...@news.csus.edu>, h...@sfsu.edu (VINCENT B HO) wrote:
>{3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
>{copyrighted work as a whole; and
>I think this one kills it. The Ranma translations were of the entire work,
>not just parts for scholarly discussion. Educational fair use exists to allow
>people to write articles about copyrighted material without clearing quotes.
>Not translating entire works.
If you ever go to a bookstore, take a look at 'cinema' section or something
equivalent to it. Often it has translations of foreign language movies.
Some of it have only one copyright mentioned: that of the translator's.
For example, there are at least two different versions of Eng. translation
of "Shoot the Piano Player"in book form.
One is a thin book with translation and original dialogue in French with
some pictures. This one had two copyright mentioned: that of translator
and that of original script writer(Francois Truffaut).
The other one is about twice as thick with translation and commentaries.
It mentions only one copyright that of the translator's who is also the
commentator as well. (no original french dialogue, but had extensive scean
descriptions) The author thanked some film archive for lending him the film,
and mentions what a great director Mr.Truffaut is. ^_^
So it seems, at least for the educational purpose, it is possible to
'quote' entire work.
PS: For those of you who may not know about it, if you translate anything,
you have copyright on that translation, regardless whether you have
the permition from the original creator or not.
------
* PSME * Meiko Akizuki * Gunbuster * Maison Ikkoku * Kiseiju * Oyuki(UY)*
* Macross Movie * Akazukin Cha Cha * Sailor Moon * Sailor Senshi * Nene *
* Plastic Little * Mamalade Boy * Char's Counter Attack * Chen Agi *Luna*
* Belldandy * Spirit of Wonder * Iria * OEDO 808 * Kyoko (MI) * Presence*
* Mihoshi's Cube * Holy Up * Ah! My goddess! * Nuku Nuku*Sol Bianca*Jiji*
Justin j...@panix.com
Jeff Alexander
> "What do you find the best part of the job is ?"
> Going to Japan and getting blind drunk with people on their money!
> "What's the worst part ?"
> Dealing with lawyers!
>
Yeah, yeah yeah...it sounds great but what if the peoples money you're
getting drunk on >ARE< lawyers! brrrr.
Actually, I'm fairly surprised that Shogakukan would take this
approach to dealing with the situation.
Back in January I attended a Manga Symposium at Georgetown
University, one of the speakers was Professor John Lent, who's speech
went into the affect manga has on the rest of the asian world. Part of
this speach covered the rampant piracy of anime in Hong Kong, Taiwan,
Vietnam..etc.
In Hong Kong at least, the Japanese companies came up with a
revolutionary solution....they found they biggest & most successful of
the video pirates & hired them as subtittlers & distributors! According
to the last Dr. Lent had heard, the new Hong Kong distributor was
making a killing by beating his competition with the latest releases &
by using other pirates in his organization.
See what happens when your first thought isn't to sue the pants off
somebody?
Mr. Fun
kova...@cs.purdue.edu (Bradley Louis Kovacs) wrote:
{I shudder to think that r.a.a will become a forum where fan translators
{will have to post their scripts from anon accounts just to make
{them available to other fans (which I can bet will most certainly
{happen if Viz carries out their, may I say diabolical plan?)
{
{I still don't understand Viz's motivation for this other then simple
{greed..
Huh? What other motivation would anyone have for starting a business in the
USA? Simple or complex, greed is a primary motivation for doing business. If
they weren't greedy they would donate their time to charity.
Mr. Fun
{In article <Ja2frK...@delphi.com>, C Sue Shambaugh <cs...@delphi.com>
wrote:
{>Hello -
{>
{>Having perused the "Viz vs Anime Clubs" threads for the past
{>couple of days, I thought it might be time the "the horse's mouth" to
{>step in and set things straight.
{>
{>On March23, 195, Viz's marketing rep, Lopa, gave me a nasty phone call.
{>Basically, the gist was that fan translators (oh, excuse me,
{>that's "unlicensed translators") have no right to translate into
{>English any products owned by Shogakukan.
{
{This is kind of silly because you can't sue someone for knowldge of a
{language. What if I did own a legit copy only in Japanese?
{Can't I tell the people next to me what they are saying?
Yes, but you can't (legally) put what they say on an FTP site (in any
language) without permission from the copyright holder. They aren't
threatening suit over knowledge of a language. They are threatening suit over
copyright violation.
Mr. Fun
Ryan Mathews
>In article <3ounou$n...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
>> Well, I would like to suggest all fan subtitlers to pull together
>>and figure out a way to thwart Viz's insolence. Whatever happens,
>>don't stop subtitling anime. You wonder-workers are the backbone of
>
>My god...you are starting to rant and rave as if this is a holly
>war.
Isn't it? Or at least as holy as anything gets in anime fandom? I
mean, an attack on fan-translating strikes at the very heart of anime
fandom, at one of the fundamental bricks the whole house is built on.
Yeah, I know fan-subbing is illegal. But I'd thought that, after so
much time, that the fans and the companies had reached an unofficial
"understanding":
-- You don't sub or translate something that someone has the rights to.
-- As soon as you learn someone does have the rights to it, you yank it
off the distribution list.
I've been proud of the fact that every fan I've ever met understands
and adheres to this code, with the additional non-fan-sub item "Thou
shalt not copy a pro tape". Sure, there's some bad apples, but I
thought that, as a whole, anime had one of the most honarable fandoms
in existence.
But I guess not. I guess we're just taking precious crumbs out of
their mouths.
What gets me is not that this action by Viz is "wrong". They have
every right to protect their assets. What gets me is the implicit
ingratitude. If it wasn't for fan-translators and fan-subbers, there
would *be no* anime fandom in the U.S., and no market for their
stinkin' tapes.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com "I like you! You wanna be a
SnailMail: 786 High Street guinea pig for my experiments?"
Bedford OH, 44146 -- Washuu-chan
Matt Seitz
My first thought also was that point 3 would rule out translations.
However, on second thought, the fact that the original artwork is not
included might allow a translation to pass this point. One possible
intent of point 3 is to prevent the derived work from substituing for
the original. Since it is likely that anyone using the translation
will also buy a copy of the Japanese comic (in order to see the
artwork), the translation would not displace sales of the original.
I think Vincent wrote a very good, convincing article. I say that as
someone who is very concerned about protecting copyright. Until now, I
was convinced that a translation script must be an illegal derived
work. Now, I think a good case can be made for fair use. Not a
bulletproof case, but a very good one.
--
----------
Matt Seitz
No-Name Anime
se...@ix.netcom.com
Mr. Fun
"Steven Miale" <smi...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
{In article <3p1dgd$i...@uuneo.neosoft.com>,
{Mr. Fun <astr...@neosoft.com> wrote:
{>In article <3ouvp7$o...@lab10.cs.purdue.edu>,
{Once again, we are NOT talking about distributing stuff which anyone else
{already distributes commercially. We are talking about stuff that hasn't had
{the rights acquired to it in the US yet.
So? The existence of fan subs may decrease sales for material not yet
translated. We know that C-Ko won't rent anime she hasn't seen on fansub
first. Thats one rental denied for each title she doesn't like. Whether the
increased interest generated by fan subs offsets that effect is unknown.
{
{Are we 'stealing' from the Japanese companies? Do you really believe that
{people are going to go out and buy the original untranslated japanese videos
{for $$$ without having seen any of the series? Take Maison Ikkoku. AA and
{NT have been subbing it, and it's been tremendously popular. So popular that
{Viz started translating the manga, so popular that many MI fans have bought
{the CDs, LDs, and manga (or all three, like myself), etc. I don't think
{fansub penetration had anything to do with Viz deciding not to pick up the
{MI anime, but I suspect it will be picked up eventually, hopefully by someone
{who will do a decent job (are you reading this, Woodhead-san?)
You can't see how the existence of fan subs would make an official release
less appetizing? Many anime fans who already own the fan sub may be reluctant
to plop down hard earned cash for the legal version. So I think we are
stealing (no quotes) from the Japanese companies.
{
{Fansubs are good in that they give these companies free market research.
{What's popular? Read rec.arts.anime, see what is being talked about a lot,
{or which series are the most popular, and purchase it. They'll make plenty
{of money, since both the mainstream and loyal fans with purchase the videos.
{(I only have one fansub for something that has been released in the US that
{I _don't_ have the commercial release of, and that is Totoro. I'm waiting
{for widescreen.)
And you will never see it. I, however, bought Totoro on LD. This is a
perfect example of the damage fan subs can do to a title. You had a fan sub
and didn't buy it. I didn't have a fan sub and I bought it.
As far as "free market research", this is a crock. I don't see any anime
companies asking us to do their research for them. You don't have the right
to make business decisions for those companies.
Andre A. Nurwono
Walter 'LoGH' Amos very informatively wrote:
>But if they are unwilling to actually prosecute the bootlegger, how then to
>stop him from selling his ill-gotten tapes? Simple. By stopping his
>acquisition of tapes at the source - the fan translators and subtitlers.
This discussion has me interested in the real bootlegger market.
How big a problem are they actually ? Maybe I am just blind to them since
I have been spoiled by my local club, filled by respectable fan efforts.
But I have NEVER seen any actual bootleggers trying to sell _fansubs_.
The closest thing to a bootlegger which I have seen is a sorry attempt by
someone to sell me his used tapes of 10th or so generation copies for $25
a tape!
In fact, I am willing to argue that fansub distribution actually push
away bootleggers. If fansubbers/distributors make themselves more accessible
to potential fans, the black bootlegged anime market would naturally go
away.
>Now a simple cease and desist order issued against a fan has no more weight
>than it does against a bootlegger *except in the mind of the fan*. Most
>fan translators and subtitlers, attempting as best they can to stay on the
>right side of the law while at the same time spreading awareness of anime
>they enjoy which hasn't made it over here yet, stop distribution of any
>titles once they are commercially licensed here. This indicates a repsect
>for the law and a genuine desire not to work against the interest of the
>professional companies. As a result, people such as those at Viz issuing
>these threats against fan groups know that they can be cowed into
>submission with only a minimum of effort, and thus the flow of anime into
>the subsequent dirty hands of bootleggers will be slowed or stopped.
Hmm... maybe some people feel we are not doing enough.
Maybe we could do more to discourage people to sell off fansubs.
Maybe Arctic's practice to stuff anti-bootleg messages is right
after all. Maybe we should have people who receive stuff from fan distributors
to sign a paper stating they won't use the tapes for profit purposes
or in any way which would hurt anime market sales, and also signing
that they should try their best to support the shows they like.
Then again, maybe no amount of effort would budge those overzealous
corporate types. Perhaps they think it is the same as blatant piracy,
thus their oh-so narrow minded, stubborn attitude (something like
how religious fundamentalists would act ^_^ )
If someone like that were to start a 'legal defense fund' then
I have no doubt in my mind that they think it will do them good,
however wrong they may be. I doubt people like these can see a grayscale
image. I'm almost convinced all they see is monochrome (absolute
black and white, if you mind the pun ^_^ )
>towing the party line and not viewing any anime which does not come
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>through the professional companies.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So they'd monopolize the market ? What a bad idea, as you said.
Not only will this not work, it will be detrimental to the health
of the market as well.
Just think. If fansubs were to die out, the demand for good anime
will still be as strong as ever! This could only result in a growth
in the black market for anime, since people cannot get what they want
from the grey side. Bootleggers will flourish, because now they can
actually SELL illegal copies for profit money. Eventually the overall
market share will shrink, not only for the black market, but also
for the white market as well, and all due to them eliminating the grey
market. And without volunteers to suppress the black market, we'll see
how much the white market gets hurt from the war it waged by itself.
>own future sales in the long run. I also believe that fan translators and
>subtitlers should not be cowed by baseless threats, but should continue to
>pursue a policy of co-existence and co-operation with professional
>companies and continue to support the licensed releases of anime as they
>become available in the US.
So, what should the fans do ?
What could be the fans' plan of action ?
How can fans show more goodwill towards the companies ?
How can they help suppress bootleggers ?
I already made several suggestions above, what do you think of these ?
1. Fan distributors be more careful not to put their stuff
in the hands of bootleggers.
They could have people who requests stuff to sign 'anti-bootleg' contracts
and / or spreading the information of the situation of the fans and their
goals, i.e. helping anime spread, supporting the industry, etc.
2. Anime clubs could offer more advertising campaigns for the companies,
i.e. ordering advertising material from companies to their showings,
and making it easier for their members to purchase stuff.
3. Maybe Lopa was right ? If translations were not be made so publicly
available, bootleggers who subtitle to sell would have to personally
request for the translations. It won't be less available for fandom's
peruse, but it will make bootleggers take an extra step if they want to
gain the confidence of the fans distributing translations.
i.e. Maybe something like what SouthWestern Bell is doing: ask a confidante
to vouch for you :)
But then again, I've never heard of any such bootleggers @_@
4. I understand many have done these already, but then they are
also doing it by themselves, and not making it public knowledge.
The fourth suggestion is an awareness campaign. Just tell people
what you know. Print it in leaflets in clubs, etc, when members join.
Thus the clubs' mission is tripled: to provide awareness of the
potentials of animation, to provide awareness of the issues of
'enjoying anime', and its situation.
>I am not recommending that people write angry letters nor that they stop
>buying Viz products. I am merely trying to encourage some understanding of
>these issues which have many people in fandom concerned.
5. Just a spoonful of goodwill from each of us, and we could make
the world a better place. <twinkle, twinkle, beady eye glimmer> :P
-a
--
Andre Nurwono | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
and...@cs.utexas.edu | thrust... (BOINNNG!)" - Daffy Duck
Marco van Loon
and...@cs.utexas.edu (Andre A. Nurwono) wrote:
[munch]
> (But who knows Lopa might be just a pawn in the game. She gets the heat,
> but some exec gets away with it... ^_^ heh heh 'been reading to much
> Sanctuary conspiracies for my own good ... then again Viz might've
> learned from it too.. :)
Hmm, sounds a bit like Genom to me. :)
I was already starting to doubt if it was a coincidence that the Viz thread
and the "... is a boomer" threads started at about the same time.
Now the fact that Manga Video Europe changed boomers to voomers in
ADPolice files starts to make sence! It was a subtle hint of them:
VOOMERS = Viz bOOMERS !
I've uncovered the masterplan! Viz will in a few years rename itself to
Genom and...
Huh?
Er, Conty, are you pointing that laser in your mouth at me???!!?
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRg... [insert animation that looks like the beginning of BGC3
(you know, the part where a ADP trooper literally gets shot to pieces) here]
Marco van Loon For pc-utils, qtflat, animeDOOM, JIS utils,
the anime pocket guide and
valk...@charm.il.ft.hse.nl anime fanzines on internet:
veri...@stack.urc.tue.nl http://www.stack.urc.tue.nl/~veritech
I'm NOT a boomer
Steve Pearl
>PS: For those of you who may not know about it, if you translate anything,
> you have copyright on that translation, regardless whether you have
> the permition from the original creator or not.
Yes, you hold a copyright on the original work. But the distribution
part is kinda wierd. You cannon publish it, you probably cannot post
it. (Considered publishing) But making xeroxes(tm) of it to those
people who write to you for a copy is probably not considered
publishing. (Especially when you just charge to cover your materials &
postage) I am not a lawyer, though I find copyright law facinating.
Steve
Xerox is a registered trademark of the Xerox corporation.
---
Stephen Pearl (Starbuck)
Internet: star...@cybercom.com
QUOTES: "What is Starbuck-ing?" -Adultress 19
"Works for me!" -Rick Hunter (The Cop, not the Robotech Defender)
Chae Ho An
Mr. Fun <astr...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>So? The existence of fan subs may decrease sales for material not yet
>translated. We know that C-Ko won't rent anime she hasn't seen on fansub
>first. Thats one rental denied for each title she doesn't like. Whether the
>increased interest generated by fan subs offsets that effect is unknown.
The tape is already paid for, rented or not. A single case
means nothing in overall picture. While this argument may have some
weight in the video store's standpoint, as far as anime companies are
concerned the tape is already accounted for.
Of course, you ignore the fact that if C-ko does like a tape,
she will likely buy a commercial release which is much more lucrative
for the anime companies. The flipside is that if C-ko buys something
outright that she doesn't like, she'll be less willing to gamble
on the next title. If I had to guess on quality of a release every time
I buy, I would end up buying less because I wouldn't want to get 'burned'.
And I think this may apply to a lot of people. I would buy up all
the Ranma releases but wouldn't have given MI a second thought.
(come on "wacky hijinks cant ruin a great romance"? who came up with that
crap?)
>{
>{Are we 'stealing' from the Japanese companies? Do you really believe that
>{people are going to go out and buy the original untranslated japanese videos
>{for $$$ without having seen any of the series? Take Maison Ikkoku. AA and
>{NT have been subbing it, and it's been tremendously popular. So popular that
>{Viz started translating the manga, so popular that many MI fans have bought
>{the CDs, LDs, and manga (or all three, like myself), etc. I don't think
>{fansub penetration had anything to do with Viz deciding not to pick up the
>{MI anime, but I suspect it will be picked up eventually, hopefully by someone
>{who will do a decent job (are you reading this, Woodhead-san?)
>
>You can't see how the existence of fan subs would make an official release
>less appetizing? Many anime fans who already own the fan sub may be reluctant
>to plop down hard earned cash for the legal version. So I think we are
>stealing (no quotes) from the Japanese companies.
Fansub is much less pervasive than you may think. I'm a relative
newcomer to this hobby, having only been in it for two months. But
I did have a casual association with anime and manga for around 5 years.
This includes rentals, friends, some people I knew at U of M
Animania, etc. But it's only been around three weeks ago that I had a
clue what a fansub was and only through this newsgroup. If anime
companies do target the general public, those who aren't likely to have
access to neither clubs nor r.a.a., then the fansubs shouldn't pose
much of a threat. Also, I think there are amply demonstrated tendencies
in fandom (fans who are apart from the general public and who are also
likely to have access to clubs and/or fansubs to collect everything.
Fans in Japan collect all the released copies, in Japanese, English,
and in French. From what I gather in several MLs, fans here do
much the same if only because they're impatient for US release. And
if US release becomes available, I would think a good percentage may
purchase those too. As for me, a packrat that I am, I buy everything
associated with whatever is my favorite at the time. I even have
(official Viz released, BTW) Lum t-shirt that I actually wear.
>{Fansubs are good in that they give these companies free market research.
>{What's popular? Read rec.arts.anime, see what is being talked about a lot,
>{or which series are the most popular, and purchase it. They'll make plenty
>{of money, since both the mainstream and loyal fans with purchase the videos.
>{(I only have one fansub for something that has been released in the US that
>{I _don't_ have the commercial release of, and that is Totoro. I'm waiting
>{for widescreen.)
>
>And you will never see it. I, however, bought Totoro on LD. This is a
>perfect example of the damage fan subs can do to a title. You had a fan sub
>and didn't buy it. I didn't have a fan sub and I bought it.
I think your case would be more compelling if you could
quote more than one person. Tooro was packaged and promoted
as a kid's movie in US and I think that may have had larger
effect in overall sales, rather than any fansub penetration.
Before you blithely dismiss Totoro's chance of being released
widescreen (and what source do you have on that anyway?), the previous
poster has the right idea. If you don't have to get _everything_,
like myself, get what you like. This covers subs vs. dubs, VHS
vs. LDs, normal screen vs. widescreen. A bit later you write that
fans don't do market research for the anime companies but here, I think,
is a way we can at least make our feelings known. A hard sales
figure comparing subs vs. dubs, VHS vs. LD, normal screen vs. widescreen
would be given much more credence that any overblown threads in this
newsgroup. I personally don't make any qualitative comparisions
of those three pairs however. I get whatever I can get my hands on.
>
>As far as "free market research", this is a crock. I don't see any anime
>companies asking us to do their research for them. You don't have the right
>to make business decisions for those companies.
You completely miss the point. Of course no anime companies are
asking the fans to do market research. For one thing, that would
be a highly irregular (but not unheard of) action on the anime companies'
part and if they did want some input, simply counting threads in
r.a.a etc will give them a general idea. We don't presume to do
any market research but some data, if not the analysis, are there
for the companies if they want to use it. Of course, I think this
takes backseat, if a seat at all, to their own inhouse market research
(maybe tied to sales figure like in my previous paragraph) and surveys.
--C h a e
--
pala...@p.imap.itd.umich.edu, cha...@delphi.com
http://www.cris.com/~chaean
"I'm strangely attracted to Camille Paglia..."
"Is that wrong?"
David Williams
"Steven Miale" <smi...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>Once again, we are NOT talking about distributing stuff which anyone else
>already distributes commercially. We are talking about stuff that hasn't had
>the rights acquired to it in the US yet.
>
Yes.
>Do you really believe that
>people are going to go out and buy the original untranslated japanese videos
>for $$$ without having seen any of the series?
Yes I do. I have been for years and so have almost every fan I know. We
bought the original Japanese LDs, sometimes with as little as a couple of
pictures from a magazine to go on. And before you ask, no I don't have a lot
of money to throw around. But, I like the LD format, the original video and
voices. I was watching the original videos long before the explosion of fan
subbers when you REALLY had to WATCH a video to learn what was going on.
Sometimes I picked up something I found I didn't like but was generally able
to find someone who did who I could sell it to.
Oh and BTW, just to position myself, I am a fansubber AND have close
connections to the U.S. anime industry.
>What makes me POed is that Viz is taking such a heavy hand to the very people
>who made anime a marketable item in the US.
With the exception of AA, most of the major fansubbers distribution that I
know of now came along AFTER companies like AnimEigo and US Renditions started
releasing videos. I'm not saying the fansubbers don't help now, just that
they didn't make anime a marketable item.
The Feddie Punk of Solomon
ak...@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) wrote:
>Anime fans were around before fan-subtitling; we will persist
>even if "evil corporations" shut fan-subtitlers down. They cannot
>stop you from buying the original material from Japan, and they
>cannot stop the flow of anonymously produced scripts over the internet.
Careful, those import LDs are technically not supposed to be sold outside of
Japan.
-----
Albert "The Sirloin Spider" Wong
alb...@best.com
http://www.best.com/~albertw
Mike Tatsugawa
#1) Most of the fans subbers are NOT in California. This means that a
civil suit probably cannot be tried in any of California's superior
courts. The case now gets remanded to the Federal courts.
A) Federal trials take FOREVER.
B) Lawyers cost a lot of money (Unless Seiji tries it himself. But in
this case, there is a loss in opportunity costs in his time.)
C) Not only would they have to pay a lawyer a lot of money for a long
trial, but they would have to pay the costs for the lawyer to operate
in each of the jurisdictions that the fansub trail went through.
D) The damages are nil. (Which incidentally gets them booted out of the
superior court, or if they claim high damages, the federal courts don't like
high damages.)
E) The potential for recovery of damages is not very high. This makes
the probability of a trial quite low.
G) It's more cost effective to simply have a circuit court judge for
northern California to issue injunctions against certain groups. Try
to get injunctions in each location where they suspect illegal
activity is being done. (This is the current strategy that Saban is
using to protect the Power Rangers from copyright infringement.) A
violation results in a good case for damages and also for Contempt of
Court. Both of which are stronger cases than the original one.
In the end, legal action will probably be taken, but trials are quite
unlikely.
Mike
--
Mike Tatsugawa, AKA shogun: The busiest anime fan in the world!
President, SPJA: 2425 B Channing, Suite 684, Brk, CA 94704
Publicity Coordinator, Anime Expo '95
Bruce Duffy
copyright the English translation. But woe be unto you if you try to
sell it to anyone! All your copyright does is protect you from Viz
using YOUR translation. Which I SERIOUSLY doubt they would ever do.
The main problem is that Lopa has said that they plan to stop ALL
fan subbers, even if they are not Shogakukan works. This is a bunch of
BS as only the copyright holder has the right to tell you to stop.
However, I STRONGLY urge any fansubbers out there NOT to distribut
ANYTHING that is owned/licensed by any US company UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCES!
We owe the US companies our support. They are doing us a service in
providing what they have licensed. However, I will NEVER buy a VIZ
product again, considering their statement that they have the right to
act for EVERY company in Japan and that they know that they want them
to restrict the fansubbers.
If the Japanese companies cared all that much, they'd begin by
shutting down the Comic Market in Tokyo. It draws over 1/4 million fans
each time, and everything being sold is unauthorized. If that doesn't
bother them, I doubt that a few subtitled tapes here are going to mean
much to them.
A final message though. Shogakukan has indicated that it does NOT
want any of it's products fan release here. We should comply with their
wishes.
Bruce
Isaac Ji Kuo
>Mr. Fun <astr...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>>So? The existence of fan subs may decrease sales for material not yet
>>translated. We know that C-Ko won't rent anime she hasn't seen on fansub
>>first. Thats one rental denied for each title she doesn't like. Whether the
>>increased interest generated by fan subs offsets that effect is unknown.
> The tape is already paid for, rented or not. A single case
>means nothing in overall picture. While this argument may have some
>weight in the video store's standpoint, as far as anime companies are
>concerned the tape is already accounted for.
That's nonsense. If a video rental outlet buys an anime tape and notices
it never gets rented, then that outlet is unlikely to ever buy another
such tape.
> Of course, you ignore the fact that if C-ko does like a tape,
>she will likely buy a commercial release which is much more lucrative
>for the anime companies.
That's not a fact--indeed, it's untrue. C-ko has already said many times
that he won't buy any tape he can rent, and he will always make a copy
of a rented tape for himself.
>And I think this may apply to a lot of people. I would buy up all
>the Ranma releases but wouldn't have given MI a second thought.
>(come on "wacky hijinks cant ruin a great romance"? who came up with that
>crap?)
Someone at Viz, probably Trish.
> As for me, a packrat that I am, I buy everything
>associated with whatever is my favorite at the time. I even have
>(official Viz released, BTW) Lum t-shirt that I actually wear.
This is only feasible for those who don't like/don't know about much
of the anime/anime merchandise that's out there. Even if you're wealthy,
there's not enough hours in the day...
--
_____ Isaac Kuo (isaa...@OCF.berkeley.edu)
__|_>o<_|__ As the world looked on ... Earth's fate hung in balance ...
/___________\ The fight for survival ... now begins! ... FINAL BATTLE IN ...
\=\>-----</=/ TOMOBIKI-CHO!
aki...@cris.com
In article <95051413...@chemek.com>, <bruce...@chemek.com> writes:
> If the Japanese companies cared all that much, they'd begin by
> shutting down the Comic Market in Tokyo. It draws over 1/4 million fans
> each time, and everything being sold is unauthorized.
Yes, everything is unauthorized. BUT, the companies 'look the other way' as it
were. They see it as free advertising of a sort.
And they HAVE shut down some people in Comiket, if they make to much money, or
begin to rely to heavily on one company's product.
Japanese tend to be on the retiring side when it comes to conrontations like
this.
The Feddie Punk of Solomon
>The Feddie Punk of Solomon <alb...@best.com> wrote:
>>In article <akumaD8...@netcom.com>,
>>
>>Careful, those import LDs are technically not supposed to be sold outside of
>>Japan.
>
>over at your place ^_^
>
They'll never take me alive! Get away youz coppa's! Get away! Top of the world
ma! Top of the world! ;)
Sharon Westfall
: This discussion has me interested in the real bootlegger market.
: How big a problem are they actually ? Maybe I am just blind to them since
: I have been spoiled by my local club, filled by respectable fan efforts.
I'd guess big enough to get Viz and other commercial sources concerned.
Every once in a while we see posts here of someone renting a tape with
AA's "NOT FOR RENT OR SALES" written all over it and wondering what that
was about. Then there's the S. Baldric debate about his quality vs
legality. There's also the "Why shouldn't I buy the SM CD's if they
still sound good" attitude.
There are quite a few good "anime cops" always educating us about what's
wrong about bootlegging. But they're usually countered attacked by those
"I don't give a rip about your goody-good attitude - what's wrong with
trying to make a buck?"
: In fact, I am willing to argue that fansub distribution actually push
: away bootleggers. If fansubbers/distributors make themselves more accessible
: to potential fans, the black bootlegged anime market would naturally go
: away.
Hmmmm.... remember the SFII bootlegger selling his tape a few months
back? It rallied up a few guys out to become temporary free-traders. I
think they got overwhelmed with tape requests, though. The intention was
good - results questionable.
: Maybe we could do more to discourage people to sell off fansubs.
: Maybe Arctic's practice to stuff anti-bootleg messages is right
: after all. Maybe we should have people who receive stuff from fan distributors
: to sign a paper stating they won't use the tapes for profit purposes
: or in any way which would hurt anime market sales, and also signing
: that they should try their best to support the shows they like.
: Then again, maybe no amount of effort would budge those overzealous
: corporate types. Perhaps they think it is the same as blatant piracy,
: thus their oh-so narrow minded, stubborn attitude (something like
: how religious fundamentalists would act ^_^ )
IMHO, we've done the best we can, self-policing, removing newly
commercialized stuff from lists, etc. A bootlegger will bootleg no
matter what's discussed honorably here. And they'll always find a market
to buy their stuff, unsuspecting or not.
I don't hold anything against Viz or the others. Yes, they're in the
business to make money, but I'll bet a lot of them got in to the business
because they are fans, just like us. Maybe even had/enjoyed a fan-sub or
two once upon a time......
Steven E Barnes
The Feddie Punk of Solomon <alb...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <akumaD8...@netcom.com>,
>
>Careful, those import LDs are technically not supposed to be sold outside of
>Japan.
Hmm... So the customs dudes could make a major haul by stopping
over at your place ^_^
-steve
Mr. Fun
pala...@umich.edu (Chae Ho An) wrote:
{In article <3p44b8$a...@uuneo.neosoft.com>,
{Mr. Fun <astr...@neosoft.com> wrote:
{>So? The existence of fan subs may decrease sales for material not yet
{>translated. We know that C-Ko won't rent anime she hasn't seen on fansub
{>first. Thats one rental denied for each title she doesn't like. Whether
the
{>increased interest generated by fan subs offsets that effect is unknown.
{
{ The tape is already paid for, rented or not. A single case
{means nothing in overall picture. While this argument may have some
{weight in the video store's standpoint, as far as anime companies are
{concerned the tape is already accounted for.
Nope. If the tape won't rent, the video store won't buy it in the first
place. So the anime company DOES care about rentals.
I won't comment on the rest because you are operating under the assumption
that small = none. Even though the fan sub collector population is small, it
is not zero. You may consider a small number of dollars lost to
fansubbing negligible, but I don't, and I imagine that the anime companies
don't either.
Don Kreipke
Stainless Steel Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
>The moment your translation reaches someone else's hands,
>you are in violation of international copyright law.
This, I assume, means a direct word-for-word translation of the original
Japanese script.
What about a synopsis that describes the action, but relies mostly on indirect
quotes, with an occasional direct translation of a particularly dramatic line
from a character?
Would a detailed synopsis be a violation of copyrights?
Regards,
Don Kreipke
Chae Ho An
Peter Ronaszeki <pred...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>Yes. The time has come for a boycott. Even Manga Entertainment, in the
>peak of their fan-enemy status in Australia/Europe never did anything so
>blatantly aggressive as actively going after fantranslators and
>fansubbers.
Oh please. Switch to decaf. :)
>What we need to be most effective is for all of us on r.a.a. to tell ALL
>of their friends that Viz is now the enemy, and to tell them to tell all of
>their friends too. If anyone has any access to community media networks
>then all the better.
For one thing, I don't believe this can reach a critical mass where
its effects can be felt at the corporate level. But if you do have friends
who'll just believe you because you said so, then I have some ocean front
property in Oklahoma for sale.
Serious, that is the last thing anyone should really do. Like
I said before, it's largely futile. Secondly, while it may not reach
the head honchos at Viz, it'll get some good mid-level people at
Viz ticked. Still, it would be nicer if someone at Viz clarified
the matter.
I think several posters already pointed out how unlikely
any court action from Viz is going to be. If it is then mostly
posturing to discourage fansubbers etc, I think the hysterics will
do more damage overall than the so-called policy at Viz.
>I would very much like this all to be a false rumour, but it seems it is
>not. If it were, Trish or someone else at Viz would have eased our minds
>long ago, as obviously Viz would not want an unnecessarily bad image.
>
>For all those who still believe that Viz is a friendly group that works
>in the interests of anime, just remember the editorial in a past issue of
>Animerica: "All anime is dubbed." This alone will tell you a lot about
>the kind of company Viz is.
Well, it is. :) But unlike refried beans, redubbing a dub can
result in something quite vile, although probably not as gaseous.
>
>Let us all remember from now on that Viz is the Enemy. Our efforts are
>probably futile anyway, but we cannot be idle while something we care
>about is destroyed, and those who have provided us all with quality
>fansubbed anime are attacked.
Would you like a Sieg with your Heil?
>We must not treat this matter lightly.
Chae Ho An
Mr. Fun <astr...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>{ The tape is already paid for, rented or not. A single case
>{weight in the video store's standpoint, as far as anime companies are
>{concerned the tape is already accounted for.
>
>place. So the anime company DOES care about rentals.
Aw, come on. The tapes will get rented. Let's try to stay away
from the extremes here since we seem to agree that fansubs are 'small'.
I'm sure you're not stating that without fansub, all the anime tapes
in video stores will be continually out.
>I won't comment on the rest because you are operating under the assumption
>that small = none. Even though the fan sub collector population is small, it
>is not zero. You may consider a small number of dollars lost to
>fansubbing negligible, but I don't, and I imagine that the anime companies
>don't either.
Defnitely not 'none'. Negligible? Yes. But negligible in what
context and scale whoever? The concept of lost revenue is fairly
nebulous too, since people may get fansub of something they would
never consider buying outright.
Given the situational context of mountainous legal fees and
small (as we apparently agreed in the previous paragraph) scale of the
fansub operations, I can see how this can be negligible. Of course, that
doesn't make fansubbing 'right' or 'lawful'. But that never was my
point anyway.
As for asking the anime companies whether or not they
consider fansubbing negligible, they'll probably say 'No'. But ask
them what they'll do about it and they'll probably shrug. The 'leak' from
Viz may be a shot across the bow of the fansubbing community but more than
likely, Viz only has a couple of shells.
Matthew E. Grossman
>From: tjg...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu (GRIESENBROCK)
>Subject: Re: THIS IS RUMOR CONTROL - HERE ARE THE FACTS
>Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 14:23:10 GMT
<snip>
> You folks have to understand, yes fansubs brought us here, but
>fansubs should not be the sole thing that brings us to the next point,
>the actual mainstream. If we want to see anime to succeed here in the
>US and to see anime shows on prime time TV and cable and so on forth, we'll
>have to reduce our hobby that we relied on too much for our pleasure and
>start helping the commerical companies by adocating their quality to the
>mass media. We should help by getting the origional companies to follow
>the steps that Pioneer had done with their anime shows and to see our best
>loved medium being accepted by parents here.
We've already seen anime on tv in the US. We'll be seeing more in the future.
In fact, there was anime on tv in the US before anime fandom really
existed.
This should not surprise anyone. I honestly don't think that success of tape
sales has much to do with whether or not anime will be on tv. (Can someone
come up with a counterexample?) The mass media do not care about a tiny
market of anime fans who will buy tapes on more than a casual basis. Right
now asian more-or-less-popular culture is seen as being a potential source of
product to "import" (exploit) because of the Power Rangers thing. But I don't
think that it will last. For many people in the US anime is just too strange
and foreign, and if it just comes at them cold they will be turned off. (I
was, until it was repackaged as "Japanese science fiction". Of course, now
I'm watching Maison Ikkoku...but I wouldn't have five years ago.)
> It's now 1995, and I see that by the year 2000, everyone who watch
>TV would have known about this 'anime' thing, and that we'll see at least
>a 5% rating point on a primetime anime show.
Flee! Flee while you can! :-)
Seriously, I think this is possible. I also think that by 2005 anime on US tv
will have gone the way of hula hoops, disco, and grunge.
<snip>
*********************************************************************
Matt Grossman "He's a Leningrad Cowboy
meg...@hamp.hampshire.edu Raising cattle on the Net..."
http://hamp.hampshire.edu/~megF91
Roger P. Ang
David Williams <d...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>With the exception of AA, most of the major fansubbers distribution that I
>know of now came along AFTER companies like AnimEigo and US Renditions started
>releasing videos. I'm not saying the fansubbers don't help now, just that
>they didn't make anime a marketable item.
This is a *very* misleading statement. Yes, many fansubbers
did come out after AnimEigo and US Renditions started releasing
videos. But to say they did not have an effect of making anime a
marketable item is to ignore the to obvious parallel between fan
translations and how they *preceded* their commercial U.S. release.
Titles like Lodoss Wars, Sazan 3x3 Eyes, and Ah Megamisama (Oh My
Goddess) were popular with fans at least several months before
companies even announced they acquired their license because of the
fansubs. Note, how those are not AA titles! I claim that the current
fansubbers are still generating demand for new unlicensed titles, and
that companies are picking these titles up to meet that demand. Just
to make my point on this, I'll post a list of titles I know were fan
translated at some time. My claim: the majority of commercial U.S.
anime releases were preceded by a fan translation.
Roger P. Ang (ra...@laputa.ics.uci.edu)
Irvine? Where's Irvine? Grad student at the
In the heart of the Orange Curtain. Dept. of Information & Computer Sci.
Oh no! The poor fool. Univ. of California, Irvine. USA
Geoffrey Scott
: In article <3p3ugd$dq8...@vip.best.com>, The Feddie Punk of Solomon <alb...@best.com> wrote:
: >In article <akumaD8...@netcom.com>, ak...@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) wrote:
: >>Anime fans were around before fan-subtitling; we will persist
: >>even if "evil corporations" shut fan-subtitlers down. They cannot
: >>stop you from buying the original material from Japan, and they
: >>cannot stop the flow of anonymously produced scripts over the internet.
: >Careful, those import LDs are technically not supposed to be sold outside of
: >Japan.
: What?
: Is there some obsolete, unenforced Japanese law that prohibits anime
: from being exported?
: Agitator
: #->
Actually, this statement *could be* true. It depends on how the
licenseing agreement between everybody is set up. For example, if, say,
Gainax sold Sony the rights to Sailor Mecha Five Team to be released
on videotape. Sony would (depending on how the contract was written)
only have the rights to release it in Japan. All foreign sales would
remain under Gainax's domain, and if Sony sells tapes to Planet Anime in
Texas, Sony would be violating their contract, especailly if Gainax sold
the US rights to, say AnimEigo. But in reality, no gives a crap about
this type of "grey market goods". Similiar things used to happen in the
early eighties with cameras, they were purchased in Japan for less than
they could be purchased in the US, and then brought over here and sold.
(This was when the yen/dollar ratio favored the dollar.)
Geo
j.chieng
pred...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Peter Ronaszeki) writes:
>
>Yes. The time has come for a boycott. Even Manga Entertainment, in the
>peak of their fan-enemy status in Australia/Europe never did anything so
>blatantly aggressive as actively going after fantranslators and
>fansubbers.
> (more interesting fanatical stuff deleted)
>
>Let us all remember from now on that Viz is the Enemy. Our efforts are
>probably futile anyway, but we cannot be idle while something we care
>about is destroyed, and those who have provided us all with quality
>fansubbed anime are attacked.
>
>We must not treat this matter lightly.
>
Wow, you know, I read your post, and it really scared me...umm.. you
don't happen to belong to one of those private militias I keep seeing
news reports about lately, do you?
John "Viz is the Enemy" Chieng :)
>
>
>
jpre...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
GRIESENBROCK <tjg...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> wrote:
>
> Okay, it's time to say my piece about the "Viz vs. The Fans" debate.
Ok.. that's your right.
> Basically, what Viz is upset about is the sole fact that they can't
>bring some good series here (Maison Ikkoku) and expect to see some money
>returned from it just because too many people have a fansub. Sure there are
>plenty of people who are saying that it'll be better to ahve a Viz subbed
>tape of Maison Ikkoku but... You know.
I'm not sure I know anyone who would think a Ziv sub is a good thing. I mean
let's face it, their subs are almost as pathetic as their dubs. Of course,
if you had the money and the equipment, I suppose you could overdub the
subs audio track over the dubs, but that seems a little excessive to me.
As far as I can tell, Ziv is scared that the more people see fansubs, the
more informed the public will be in recognizing their products as the
horrendous garbage it is.
> So what Viz probably plans to do is just simply raise some smoke and
>scare the fan subbers underground, where it would be _MORE_ difficult to get
>a fansub of say something like Bobby Ni Kubiittake (?) which is already
>difficult to get in the first place. It's just basically too easy to get
>a fan sub of the popular show here.
Well, it's not _that_ easy... fansubbers and their distribution networks
are swamped, and unless you like to have a copy of a copy of a copy of a...
You get the picture? Fansubbers don't have the resources to produce
in quantity like Ziv. But they consistently do a better job. Even
AA can produce something on par with Ziv, once picture quality is taken
into account. Why is this?
I mean, if people doing this on a limited scale, on a limited budget,
can put out a quality product, why can't Ziv? Let's face it, if the
big anime companies wanted to put out a good product, they could. And
release on LD as well. How long do you think NT would last if one of
the major players in the market a) put out a product as good as Nexus'
b) with better video quality c) on LD ? Answer: Not fucking long.
The fact is, fans prefer a product which is faithful to the original
series, not some Macek slash job. If Ziv wanted to put fansubbers
out of business with minimal trouble, they could just put out a
competitive product. Until they do, they are going to lose the
business of those who love anime.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I ever add a dub to my collection,
that's for sure. And I'm about as likely to buy a dub as anything
of the 'quality' that Ziv puts out.
>Even I've seen several people on IRC
>asking for a Nexus copy of Tenchi Muyo, even though Pioneer did a damn good
>job on the dubbing (even though it was their _FIRST_ effort!) Unless you
>know this, they actually subs the first two LDs on repressing (got 2 vhs
>tapes with the first 2 episodes, and they have the CC of the songs (yes, it
>was a dubbed tape but the CC was exact...) even though #3 & 4 didn't have
>one). Pioneer does try their best to listen to the collective fanbase to
>provide the best service/quality/etc... and look where it got them! #1 in
>the mind of many anime fans in quality/value (at least before Manga
>Entertainment came along)... but people are still looking for the Nexus sub
>of Tenchi Muyo because they want the prettiest sub around? That's the
Pioneer has how much money?
Do you believe if they wanted to, they couldn't do as good a job as
Nexus? Just because some people have recognized that Pioneer doesn't
seem to really care, and as such are unwilling to support that particular
company until they show they do care, I'm not convinced by your argument.
>problem of the fandom. We're too hooked to fansubs to admit it. However,
>I'm gladly replacing all of my fansubs with any commericals that I could
>get (still looking for Nuku Nuku #1 & 2).
I should probably point out that the fansubs in my collection are
outnumbered by commercial releases on about a 15:1 basis. Just
all of my commercial releases are either USMC or AnimEigo, and only
those on which they did a good job.
> Viz obviously is appaled by our addiction of fansubs and any lack of
>remorse for getting them (like "I know Macross Plus is coming out but I would
>rather get a fansub of that..." kind of attitude). That why they want to
>make sure that ONLY the TRUELY hardcore anime freak would be digging around
>for the fansubs (it's impossible to stop those kind of people) and to get the
>casual anime lovers to focus on the commerical tapes for their collections.
Well, actually they probably just don't want for there to be any real
standard of comparison available, since this would show their work for
the garbage it is. (I know, I'm repeating myself, but it's not the
shortest of posts, and someone might have forgotten.)
>To do that Viz is getting what they want, everyone is going underground,
>the fansub lists is being removed/deleted, fan subbers are trusting only
>those who they know, and all that jazz. If the quality of the fansubs had
>gone to a point where we would see a Nexus Studio tape compete with Pioneer
>tapes, something is wrong here.
It isn't a matter of the quality of the fansubs. I don't know that it has
gotten any better. It's just that the quality of the commercial releases
isn't currently equal to that of a fansub. And yes, something is wrong
here... but it's something wrong with Ziv. Let's put the blame where
it belongs, shall we?
>If the quantity of the fansubs had gone to
>a point where a company wouldn't sub a series cuz Arctic Animation
>already threw around hundreds of copies, something is wrong here.
Well, companies subbing a series is usually a bad bet. I'm not sure
AnimEigo actually profits off of UY directly, or if it's just that
it keeps enough of the hardcore market happy enough with them to
buy other AnimEigo releases. And I shudder to think of the only other
lengthly series currently in commercial North American release.
> You folks have to understand, yes fansubs brought us here, but
>fansubs should not be the sole thing that brings us to the next point,
>the actual mainstream.
Actually, I wasn't aware that this was the accepted ideal. If, in
order for anime to become mainstream, we have to settle for a drop
in quality, or (even worse) dubs, I for one am willing to let anime
stay out of the mainstream indefinitely.
>If we want to see anime to succeed here in the
>US and to see anime shows on prime time TV and cable and so on forth, we'll
>have to reduce our hobby that we relied on too much for our pleasure and
>start helping the commerical companies by adocating their quality to the
>mass media.
In other words, we should lie, and pretend Ziv puts out something which
can actually be referred to as anime? I don't think so.
>We should help by getting the origional companies to follow
>the steps that Pioneer had done with their anime shows and to see our best
>loved medium being accepted by parents here.
Why don't we instead try and convince them to compete with the fansubs
directly, by putting out something just as good, if not better. It is
within their abilities. If nothing else, Ziv could subcontract out their
work to Nexus, provide equipment and masters, and let their main
competition do their job for them. Ziv certainly seems unable to do a good
job on their own, maybe this sort of partnership would fix that.
> It's now 1995, and I see that by the year 2000, everyone who watch
>TV would have known about this 'anime' thing, and that we'll see at least
>a 5% rating point on a primetime anime show. Could it happen? Not if we
>embrace fansub too much.
Let's just remember what kind of shows get ratings in the US. I like
anime because it is so much better than that which appeals to the
masses. If all we accomplish by making anime go mainstream is to
improve the quality of cartoons on TV, we have failed. And this, sadly,
is what you seem to be advocating.
> I'm not saying drop it 100%, because there's plenty of classics that
>no commerical companies would touch but the fansubbers would love to tackle,
>and there's plenty of anime clubs that have their own studio to show subs
>of shows outside the market that commerical companies had brought in (such
>as Shojo anime...)
Actually, Ziv always gives clubs a hard time when it comes to showing
Ranma subs. Just look at their release form some time.
As for the other series... well let's just say that if the fansubbers
are persecuted severely enough, it's not going to happen. And if the
fans let Ziv think that they can get away with trying to bury NT or
Nexus, then no fansubber is going to be safe, and Ziv will never give
up.
> I'm just simply saying that if you want a show, at least ask the
>commerical companies to sub it instead of running to your nearest list and
>bug someone to sub it.
Well, as much as I'd like to see it, and as would many others I know,
VGAi and KOR have not as yet been subbed. If AnimEigo were to sub
VGAi, I would undoubtedly buy from them, even if I were able to get
a fansub. Why? Because a commercial release will have better video
quality, and is probably available on LD. And if the subbing job
is as good or better, I'll choose to pay for quality rather than
settle for dropout, no matter how low my bank balance goes.
>-T.J.
>Flames are welcome if it's constructive.
I'm not sure if you could really call this a flame, and how
constructive you think it is is entirely up to you.
Later.
--
Just one more wannabe Otaku | Jason Prentice: jpre...@napier.uwaterloo.ca
(and recovering Madokist) | or jpre...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
| President, Founding Member, Madokists Anonymous
I need anime now, dammit. | Founding Member, Red-Head Anime Girls Fanclub
Profess'nal Agitator
>In article <akumaD8...@netcom.com>, ak...@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) wrote:
>>Anime fans were around before fan-subtitling; we will persist
>>even if "evil corporations" shut fan-subtitlers down. They cannot
>>stop you from buying the original material from Japan, and they
>>cannot stop the flow of anonymously produced scripts over the internet.
>Careful, those import LDs are technically not supposed to be sold outside of
>Japan.
What?
Is there some obsolete, unenforced Japanese law that prohibits anime
from being exported?
Agitator
#->
* Now there are two reasons to boycott Island Records / Corporate SST Still*
* 1. the Negativland incident 2. Manga Video // Sucks Rock*
*------------- R E M E M B E R B E I J I N G --------------//------------*
*IBM PC - Who wants a politically correct computer? \\ // Only AMIGA!*
*================================= Bring Back the Caltech \X/ Cannon!! ====*
*Roderick Lee, HMC '91 "The Professional Agitator" agit...@kaiwan.com*
Len Lekx
> What we need to be most effective is for all of us on r.a.a. to tell ALL
> of their friends that Viz is now the enemy, and to tell them to tell all of
> their friends too. If anyone has any access to community media networks
> then all the better.
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but what I'll be doing is:
I do the Anime program for a con in Toronto. I considered asking Viz for
promotional material to distribute... I even called them once. (With no repsonse
yet - five days. ^_^) I was considering calling them again, but now, I won't.
The con will have an Anime discussion which I'm taking part in. I will
mention this in the discussion, and recommend AGAINST buying Viz-produced anime
titles (subbed OR dubbed).
On a personal level, I was going to plunk down the money for all six
subtitled Ranma tapes. This debacle has changed my mind.
Trish - if you're following this ... not only have you lost a customer but,
until this is cleared up, I'm working to convince my friends to go elsewhere for
their tape purchases.
--
Len Lekx IRC Nick: Nammo | Television does not honour tradition.
InterNet: LFL...@Booster.Tor.HookUp.NET | Most times, it does not recognize it.
FidoNet: 1:250/74...@fidonet.org | Therefore, it can only destroy.
Robotech_Master
but I think that Viz does Ranma, while Ziv did things like that horrible
Captain Harlock series dub. You seem to be referring to them as though they
are one and the same entity.
--
Chris Meadows | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.,
CHM...@NIC.SMSU.EDU | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
ROBOTECH@ | Check out the Superguy WorldWideWeb homepage:
EYRIE.STANFORD.EDU | http://www.halcyon.com/superguy/superguy.html
David Williams
ra...@khepri.ics.uci.edu (Roger P. Ang) wrote:
>In article <3p5hko$j...@uuneo.neosoft.com>,
>David Williams <d...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>>I'm not saying the fansubbers don't help now, just that
>>they didn't make anime a marketable item.
>
> This is a *very* misleading statement.
Note I said above, "I'm not saying the fansubbers don't help now,..."
I think that fansubbers can and do help in many ways. (Remember, I said I'm a
fansubber myself.) The post I was replying to though implied that the U.S.
anime companies wouldn't even have a market if it wasn't for the fansubbers
and *that* was a "...*very* misleading statement...". I began collecting
anime in the early 80's and at that time you didn't have all the fansubs. It
was something if you had 1 or 2 subtitled videos. Many fans at that time
didn't want subs because "the text interfered with the art." Then things
began to change about the same time the anime companies started testing the
waters in the states and we had the beginnings of the wide scale distribution
of both fan and commerical subs.
It would be like saying that RAA built the anime market and although I happen
to be in a position to know just how useful RAA is turning out to be for
several of the anime companies, I'd never give it sole credit for the current
level of fandom. You can't discount the affect of conventions, anime related
magazines and one of my favorites, the anime fan club.
>Titles like Lodoss Wars, Sazan 3x3 Eyes, and Ah Megamisama (Oh My
>Goddess) were popular with fans at least several months before
>companies even announced they acquired their license because of the
>fansubs.
That's true but don't forget all the titles that were never fan subbed that
have been released in the U.S. How many fan subs of Gunbuster and Dangio
where out there before US Renditions released them? Not to mention many of
the titles released by CPM. I'm sure we can both pull up many titles to
support either side here when, in my mind at least, we really don't have a
disagreement.
Bruce Lewis
before a firing squad--they're not MY
enemy. The people that work there have
always been nice to me and have helped
me a great deal in my career. If you disagree
with some policy of theirs, that's fine,
but let's not go off on some fanboy
crusade and start calling people "the
enemy." It's not just inaccurate, it's
stupid.
Bruce Lewis
Studio Go! Multimedia
Los Angeles
bc...@deltanet.com/stud...@aol.com
( ^_^ ); My opinions are not necessarily those of Studio Go!, folks.
________________________________
"A proud member of the
International Jewish Conspiracy®‹
since 3760 BCE, the original
FAMILY-OWNED international conspiracy."
_________________________________
zione...@ijc.org
Tomar
>
>>In article <3ouvp7$o...@lab10.cs.purdue.edu>,
>>Bradley Louis Kovacs <kova...@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
[stuff cut]
>Yes. The time has come for a boycott. Even Manga Entertainment, in the
>peak of their fan-enemy status in Australia/Europe never did anything so
>blatantly aggressive as actively going after fantranslators and
>fansubbers.
[rest of the rhetoric deleted]
Did I mentioned that this sounded like a holly war?
Sheesh.
For the love of goddess, there is nothing wrong with they have done
so far. If they want to protect their property, they MOST certainly
can! If they want to be pricks and ignore fandom, they MOST certainly
can do that also. They are entitled to an opinion just like you and
me.
Honestly, I don't see why people are dwelling on this so much.
I wonder if some other company would have said this, would there
have been as much traffic on it?
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
<http://helser14.res.iastate.edu>
My life quest: To find and watch all Ranma 1/2 episodes I can!!!!
Favorite Quote:
"Leave me alone...I'm watching Anime!"
jpre...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
Steven E Barnes <ak...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <D8n8...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> <jpre...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Actually, Ziv always gives clubs a hard time when it comes to showing
>>Ranma subs. Just look at their release form some time.
>
>their movies to your 300+ member sci-fi club. Oh, and you don't want
>to have to pay for the privilege, since after all, you are "giving them
>free publicity..."
This wasn't to what I was refering. Ziv's attitude is basically "You
want to show Ranma, you show our dubs, no matter how shitty they are."
Even if everyone in your club bought a copy of the dub, they still won't
let you show a subtitled version (unless it's one of theirs, and we all
know how bad Ziv subs are......)
If they wanted clubs to pay before being allowed to show Ranma, but in
exchange allowed the clubs to show Ranma that they haven't butchered,
I think, so long as they kept the price within reach (if the club isn't
charging for the show, it'll be fairly hard to justify spending major
money) that most clubs would rather pay than show the dubs.
Of course, maybe i just have too high an opinion of some of the clubs
out there, I don't know.
>-steve
Stephen Willaman
: Did I mentioned that this sounded like a holly war?
Yes. You said it to me. And yes, I do believe many people are
overreacting. However I wish to comment:
A boycott is not the answer. Distributing copies of Viz's products
freely among your friends and family will REALLY open their eyes to their
true enemies, bootleggers. I however will not do this. I'm just too nice
of a guy.
Have a nice day
C-ko Kotobuki
>That's not a fact--indeed, it's untrue. C-ko has already said many times
>that he won't buy any tape he can rent, and he will always make a copy
>of a rented tape for himself.
I won't buy *any* tape. End of story. LD's maybe, tapes never.
C-ko
Roger P. Ang
David Williams <d...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>In article <3p8rsg$o...@khepri.ics.uci.edu>,
> ra...@khepri.ics.uci.edu (Roger P. Ang) wrote:
>>In article <3p5hko$j...@uuneo.neosoft.com>,
>>David Williams <d...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>>>I'm not saying the fansubbers don't help now, just that
>>>they didn't make anime a marketable item.
>>
>> This is a *very* misleading statement.
>
>Note I said above, "I'm not saying the fansubbers don't help now,..."
>I think that fansubbers can and do help in many ways. (Remember, I said I'm a
>fansubber myself.) The post I was replying to though implied that the U.S.
>anime companies wouldn't even have a market if it wasn't for the fansubbers
>and *that* was a "...*very* misleading statement...".
[clip clip]
The thing is in some ways that statment (fan translations generating a
market) is true and false. As you mentioned below, there are many
titles fans never translated any part of. Also, IMO, fan
subs/transaltions didn't really do anything for UY or Ranma since so
little of those series were translated. Lots of fans were weened on
untranslated Ranma.
But for series like Orange Road and Patlabor, I think lots of U.S.
fans would never have bothered with them without translations. The
action in these is few and far between, and character and plot
development is heavily dependent on the dialogue. Try watching these
"raw" and see. This is especially true with the Patlabor movies
(which have been licensed now, right?).
>It would be like saying that RAA built the anime market and although I happen
>to be in a position to know just how useful RAA is turning out to be for
>several of the anime companies, I'd never give it sole credit for the current
>level of fandom. You can't discount the affect of conventions, anime related
>magazines and one of my favorites, the anime fan club.
We've gone tangential. Recall that the start of this whole thread was
the Viz rumor. The issue of the controversy is whether fan
translation/subtitling hurts or helps anime companies more. I'll
argue they generate more market than they take away. But only if fan
subbers support the companies by discontinuing distribution of
fanssubs of commercially licensed titles!!!
>>Titles like Lodoss Wars, Sazan 3x3 Eyes, and Ah Megamisama (Oh My
>>Goddess) were popular with fans at least several months before
>>companies even announced they acquired their license because of the
>>fansubs.
>That's true but don't forget all the titles that were never fan subbed that
>have been released in the U.S. How many fan subs of Gunbuster and Dangio
>where out there before US Renditions released them? Not to mention many of
>the titles released by CPM. I'm sure we can both pull up many titles to
>support either side here when, in my mind at least, we really don't have a
>disagreement.
Eek, bad example. CPM is responsible for such titles as MD Geist, the
Humanoid, Wannabes, and Crystal Triangle. But to their credit they
did bring out There Were 11, a decent video that didn't even get
mentioned on r.a.a. before its release.
Still, I'd be interested to know which commercial titles (subbed or
dubbed) are generating the most revenue. It'd be interesting to see
if there's any correlation to the fan translations.
Roger P. Ang
Andre A. Nurwono <and...@cs.utexas.edu> wrote:
>This discussion has me interested in the real bootlegger market.
>I have been spoiled by my local club, filled by respectable fan efforts.
>But I have NEVER seen any actual bootleggers trying to sell _fansubs_.
>The closest thing to a bootlegger which I have seen is a sorry attempt by
>someone to sell me his used tapes of 10th or so generation copies for $25
>a tape!
Well, if you guys travel to L.A. early for the anime convention, you
may be able to catch a monthly(?) comic "convention" held near USC.
It will educate you. There are several dealers openly selling copies
of imported anime LDs on tape at $20-$30 a pop, some are selling
copies of fansubs, some are selling copies of commercial titles. Let
me make it clear, they are duping these. They are openly displaying
blank tapes you buy at the store with labels they obviously printed
themselves. There's no way to confuse these with a legit release.
They only clean up their act a little if one of the companies (e.g.,
L. A. Heroes, Streamline) is actually there for a preview screening.
Sometimes not even then.
Profess'nal Agitator
>I would very much like this all to be a false rumour, but it seems it is
>not. If it were, Trish or someone else at Viz would have eased our minds
>long ago, as obviously Viz would not want an unnecessarily bad image.
Viz does not read this group.
Toshi reads this group *very* intermittently. It's a safe bet that he
isn't reading it right now. Trish has not read this group since the
unfortunate incident in 1993. I seriously doubt Lopa (who is
evidently the cause of all this) reads the group. And I seem to
remember Trish saying that Julie doesn't read the group either.
With no one to read this group, it's disingenuous to interpret a
non-response as a refusal to respond.
>For all those who still believe that Viz is a friendly group that works
>in the interests of anime, just remember the editorial in a past issue of
>Animerica: "All anime is dubbed." This alone will tell you a lot about
>the kind of company Viz is.
You obviously didn't get the message of that treatise. All anime *is*
dubbed. Think about it some more.
>Let us all remember from now on that Viz is the Enemy. Our efforts are
Take a chill pill. Until Viz actually sues a fan subber or
translator, this is all a bunch of hot air.
Agitator "I prefer my anime dubbed ... in Japanese
#-> with English words across the bottom of the screen." --Me
The rec.arts.anime God is Steve. The r.a.a. Goddess is Teri-sensei.
Agitator Productions Int'l \\\ Does that make New Jersey holy ground?
------------------------------------------------//-----------------------
HardKOR Vision-ary Publications // The Fashionable Church
Sera-Mun Opposition, Gunhed FAQ Only \\ // of the Anison Megami
KOR ML CD and Seiyuu Consultant AMIGA! \X/ REMEMBER BEIJING!!
============================== Bring Back the Caltech Cannon!! ==========
Geoffrey Scott
: Pardon me, but aren't Ziv and Viz two different companies? I may be wrong,
: but I think that Viz does Ranma, while Ziv did things like that horrible
: Captain Harlock series dub. You seem to be referring to them as though they
: are one and the same entity.
Uh, I thought he was jokingly calling Viz "Ziv". There is actually a
company named Ziv? Weird.
Geo
Geoffrey Scott
: In article <3p9kb6$j...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com>, <g...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com>
: writes:
:
: > Steven Miale (smi...@cs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: > : In article <greyD8I...@netcom.com>,
:
: >
: > : Viz hasn't produced even close to 50+% of translated anime and manga.
: > : _Maybe_ 20%, and even that is a bit high.
: >
: > Well, for anime, it's about 10%. For manga, it's 70% or higher.
: You talking 70% in terms of -titles- or -volume-? There's a difference: titles
: produced, no matter how long the run; or number of individual issues -total-.
: I have a hard time believing Viz has put out 70% of all manga in any case.
I would say both, plus total sales, in both dollars and issues. I calculate
that Viz has released at least 40 different titles over it's six year
lifespan. How many has Dark Horse or Antartic released (Ameri-manga
doesn't count)? Much less than that, combined. Plus, Viz gets much
higher sales than Anartic, who's print runs are almost always sub-5000
for their manga releases, and they have the bestselling manga title
ever, Ranma 1/2 in their lineup. During a typical month, Dark Horse
releases three or four titles. Viz typically releases ten or so.
Geo
Geoffrey Scott
: >I would very much like this all to be a false rumour, but it seems it is
: >not. If it were, Trish or someone else at Viz would have eased our minds
: >long ago, as obviously Viz would not want an unnecessarily bad image.
: Viz does not read this group.
: Toshi reads this group *very* intermittently. It's a safe bet that he
: isn't reading it right now. Trish has not read this group since the
: unfortunate incident in 1993. I seriously doubt Lopa (who is
: evidently the cause of all this) reads the group. And I seem to
: remember Trish saying that Julie doesn't read the group either.
: With no one to read this group, it's disingenuous to interpret a
: non-response as a refusal to respond.
Exactly what happened that caused Trish to disappear? I've only been here
since January.
Geo
Mark L. Neidengard
Iskandar Taib <nt...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>In article <95051413...@chemek.com>,
>Bruce Duffy <bruce...@chemek.com> wrote:
>
>> If the Japanese companies cared all that much, they'd begin by
>>shutting down the Comic Market in Tokyo. It draws over 1/4 million fans
>>each time, and everything being sold is unauthorized. If that doesn't
>>bother them, I doubt that a few subtitled tapes here are going to mean
>>much to them.
>
>I've often wondered about the Doujinshi market in Japan. If you tried
>that with a Disney product in the US you'll have The Rodent coming
>down on your head like a ton of bricks. Some of these doujinshi are
>pretty eye-opening. Where else would you find an ecchi Hime-chan no
>Ribon story?
Just another difference between Japan and the US, I guess....and a point
in Japan's favor I think, for freedom of information. The fact of the
matter is that it is hardly detrimental for doujinshi to be coming out....the
fans get more of what they want, and it's perhaps more publicity for the
originals. Although with the proliferation of the Internet, there seems to
be at least some forum for fanart in some of the alt.binaries groups.
--
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"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/System Administrator, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
David Williams
I was one of them. :-)
>But for series like Orange Road and Patlabor, I think lots of U.S.
>fans would never have bothered with them without translations. The
>action in these is few and far between, and character and plot
>development is heavily dependent on the dialogue. Try watching these
>"raw" and see. This is especially true with the Patlabor movies
>(which have been licensed now, right?).
I watched, enjoyed, and purchased all the Orange Road and Patlabor series
along with my friends long before any of us saw a subtitled version and no we
don't speak Japanese. The Orange Road TV episodes were fairly easy to
determine what was going on as were the Patlabor TV eps. The Patlabor movies
were another matter but with a little effort one could figure out the basic
plot. Of course we enjoyed them even more after seeing them subtitled and
thank those who posted the scripts. I think this is a difference between older
fans and the newer ones. Many of the fans I meet these days won't consider a
non-subbed video and I think they are missing out on a lot because of that.
Sure it takes some effort to follow the story but it can be worth it at times.
>We've gone tangential. Recall that the start of this whole thread was
The point I was trying to make is that no one facet made the current market,
it was a combined effort of clubs, cons, and fans.
>Still, I'd be interested to know which commercial titles (subbed or
>dubbed) are generating the most revenue. It'd be interesting to see
>if there's any correlation to the fan translations.
So would I but just try and pry that info loose from the anime companies. I
could get some of it but I don't deal with all the companies so I couldn't
look at all. Still it would be nice to know wouldn't it. Maybe I'll see
about doing a little research.
Steve Pearl
>In article <3pege1$3...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> nt...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
>>In article <akumaD8...@netcom.com>,
>>Steven E Barnes <ak...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>even if "evil corporations" shut fan-subtitlers down. They cannot
>>>stop you from buying the original material from Japan, and they
>>>cannot stop the flow of anonymously produced scripts over the internet.
>>importers of Japanese LDs not ordering any more Sailor Moon LDs
>>because DIC now has the rights..
>... quite possibly because they figured that people won't bother to get the
>LDs if they can tape the show off TV. Nothing to do with getting blocked
>or anything like that. Jeez, don't be so *paranoid*.
BZZZZZT! Thank you for playing. These American companies have been
raiding small specialty import toy stores to remove such things as
Zyurangers models (from Japan), Godzilla toys (from Japan). I'm not
surprised that Sailor Moon was being pulled from the shelves for the same
reason. (And I heard that DIC was the reason Mikado pulled their Sailor
Moon LDs) Face it Conty, the people who are likely to buy the original
LDs are not the ones who are willing to tape aznd live with the American
version.
Steve
---
Stephen Pearl (Starbuck)
Internet: star...@cybercom.com
QUOTES: "What is Starbuck-ing?" -Adultress 19
"Works for me!" -Rick Hunter (The Cop, not the Robotech Defender)
Michael Studte
In article <3oupp3$m...@news.iastate.edu> to...@iastate.edu writes:
> >" Sue, you can translate any of Shogakukan's works you want to, as long
> >as it's just for your personal pleasure. But the minute you show it to
> >another living soul, that is a violation of our trademark."
>
> This is still highly "prickish", but quite within the boundries of
> the law. Why should you be upset at that?
How far does this limitation apply, anyway? What if someone on this
newsgroup posts a synopsis for an anime and happens to include a few
translated lines?
I think companies like Viz would do better to step on bootleggers
first. A rep from Kiseki Australia last week said that the bootlegging
problem in some towns (in Australia most notably Melbourne) is so bad
that it's REALLY eating into their profits.
> "God help us" if this is false. It will be even more tragic if
> this is true. :-(
Ditto.
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+--Orikasa Ai--Orikasa Ai-/
Michael Studte
In article <megF91.35...@hamp.hampshire.edu> meg...@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>
> So now we come to the question of fan-subbing. *How
> do these companies think they can stop this?* A Genlok card is what, a few
> hundred bucks (not unreasonable for a computer thingie), a LD player or VCR
> player, another VCR...this is cheap (well, not really, but affordable for a
> substantial chunk of the U.S. population). Fan-subbers are already not being
> paid, so money is not the issue. Viz &co. might be able to stop large outfits
> like Nexus & NT Anime, but the "four kids in a basement with an Amiga" can't
Nexus and NT-Anime are VERY small fry even compared to the big
underground distribution outfits.
> It will be harder for subtitlers and translators to communicate over the
> Internet, and Venice might have to shut down...but realistically, I don't
And if it comes down to that level, then god help Viz because they're
going to have very few friends left.
Without fan subs, Maison Ikkoku (their manga release) wouldn't exist
either. And Ranma would STILL be unknown to most fans.