DBZ: Rank the Z Fighters, please
Depressed
Please, he deserves much more than this!!
*********************************
^_^Depr...@aol.com^_^
(now availible in Super Seyaijin form)
davi...@imap1.asu.edu
know what the power heirarchy is among the good guys. I'm not much for
Dragonball myself, so could someone put the gang in rank order?
For completeness's sake, include:
Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, little Trunks, Future Trunks, Tenshinhan,
Chaos, #18, Krillin, Yamcha and Vegita.
And if anyone is feeling ambitious, put in people's power-ups, so we see
how strong they were at various points in their careers. Thanks.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe You'll find yourself saying
"This issue is HOT alright...
'cos its a LIVING HELL!"
-Adam Warren on writing comics
Tass1ehoff
the most powerful fighter but he is the best fighter amonst the group.
1.Gohan: for pure power you can't compare to him.Even Goku admitted
this.Think about it as a child he beat cell. Now he's grown up and so
would his power.
2.Goku: Gohan had to get from somewhere.He is very powerful and seems
to be able to upgrade himself all the time.( here's a little note: I
wonder if Goku can SSJ in his young form in DBGT. Does this mean he will
be evn more powerful than ever when he grows up again.).
3.Trunks:Like Gohan the son is always more powerful than the father(
more powerful doesn't mean a better fighter).He's on up his dad.
4.Vegita: This guy has power and knows how to use it.In a fair fight
without going SSJ I think he would be either #1 or 2.But like in the cell
saga ability sometimes just can't compare to pure power.
5.Piccolo:A great fighter with great endurance.An ability to recover
from serious damage.He is powerful but just can't compare with the Saiyan
group.Maybe if he fuses with another fighter he'll be up there.
6.Ten Shin: Most powerful enhanced human.( don't tell me a guy with
3 eyes is normal.
7.#18( that is the right #? ): Anyways, a powerful semi-cyborg.When
with her twin they made a deadly group, but still dangerous by herself.
8.Kurrian: second most powerful enhanced human.He has no nose that
ain't human.Pretty power but nothing compared to the others.
9.Trunks( baby ): just that still a baby.
10.Goten: only one year behind Trunks.
11.Yamcha: okay most powerful regular human( no third eye and he's
got a nose.)
Well that's in my ranking and everbody knows that about as good as
the nexts guy.Everybody has their favs. and will most definity have their
own way of ranking this. This is a good thing.Without disagreements life
would be boring.Lets see the next list
about............................NOW!!!
Tass
" Judge me not by my address but by my actions."
NKJem
power-ups, but here's my guess as to people's approximate rankings (if
anyone disputes this, please let me know---I just got into DBZ a few
months ago and admit freely to being no expert). =) This is as of the
Buu saga, which is as far as I've seen of the TV series, and the ranking
is from most to least powerful.
>>Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, little Trunks, Future Trunks, Tenshinhan,
Chaos, #18, Krillin, Yamcha and Vegita.<<
1. Gohan (however, he rarely gets mad enough to show his real power, so
he's really like a #2)
2. Gokuu/Vejiita--Tied
3. Future Trunks
4. #18 (She beat Goten & Trunks in the world tournament)
5. Little Trunks (although I've only seen him at age 8)
6. Goten
7. Piccolo (you know, I really can't rank him. What he lacks in power, he
makes up for in fighting genius; anyway, I haven't seen him fight in quite
a few episodes)
8. Tenshinhan
9. Yamucha
10. Kililyn
11. Chaouzu (haven't seen him fight in a long time, either)
Let the debate begin!! =D
NKJem
Gautama Buddha
Hmmmm ... gotta disagree with some of your positions here. I generally try
to avoid ranking the characters outright when this question comes up --
it's just so damn *fuzzy* -- but this time I think a clarification is in
order. :)
>1. Gohan (however, he rarely gets mad enough to show his real power, so
>he's really like a #2)
Not a chance. He was the man of the hour during the Cell story, but Chichi
has turned him into 100% wimp by now. Oh, how the mighty have fallen ...
In much the same way as a Smith and Wesson beats four aces, SSJ^3 beats all
comers. ^_^ Goku wins the #1 spot, even if it is only by virtue of primary-
character syndrome.
At the end of the story, my opinion:
#0: BUBBLES! You KNOW he's been running the show all this time! ^_^
#1: (OK, seriously now) SSJ3 Goku
#2: Vejito -- Goku/Vejita permafusion (can you imagine what they'd have
been like if they BOTH had been SSJ3?!)
#3: Ultimate Buu
#4: Gotenks -- Goten/Trunks tempfusion
#5: Vejita (Vej and Goku were NOT equal. I'm going to catch hell for this :)
#6: Future Trunks
#7: Juu-hachi gou
#8: Chibi Trunks
#9: Chibi Goten
#10 and up: don't even bother. They all just sorta smear together from here
on out.
No, Piccolo's not on the list. Wasp-kun would have you believe the Man in
Green engineered the whole thing and could have stepped in at any time, but
once again it's a matter of opinion. Really, ranking /anybody/, especially
the Saiyajin, is an exercise in futility; the show just keeps pumping
everybody up at different rates ...
--
| DBZLF/DRA: Dragonball Z Liberation Front/Dubbing Resistance Army /-/\-\
| Dragonball Hunter Rockear | suk...@netcom.com | Trunks@AnimeMUCK /-/--\-\
| Reality plays no significant role in this mess. /-/----\-\
-`- -'-
Depressed
wonder if Goku can SSJ in his young form in DBGT. Does this mean he will
be evn more powerful than ever when he grows up again.).<<
Goten will became the #1 as he gets older, because he is more powerful and
a better fighter than Gokuo or Gohan at his age
Dr. Briefs
>[Freeza Saga]
>I can't comment on this, having seen very little of it, but I do know of
>several powerups that occurr:
>--Gokuu first achieves Super Saiyajin 1.
>--Kuririn given powerboost by Namekseijins.
>--Gohan given yet more training.
>--Vegita recieves a powerboost from Kuririn (sorta)
> (In that case, Vegita rationalized that since Saiyajin get major boosts if
>they almost get killed, he asked Kuririn to blast him. Kuririn did so, and
>Vegita recovered and gained at least some more power -- "That which does not
>kill you will make you stronger.")
At the same time, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaozu were training under
Kaiou-sama. Piccolo also merged with Nail, making him more powerful than
Vegeta for a short while, until his powerup as you mentioned.
>[Return to Earth; Red Ribbon androids and Cell Game]
It's a whole big mess. Let's just say that at the end of this part, Gohan is
the head hancho, Perfect Cell in for a close second.
The rest--
Goku
Cell Junior
Vegeta
Trunks
Piccolo
#16
#17
#18
[below this point, no one really cares anymore...]
#19 & #20
Kuririn & Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Yajirobe
Chaozu
Kamesennin
Chichi
Gyuumaoh
Then we basically go to the end of DB (manga)...
--
Glenn Wang <br...@ix.netcom.com>
"I want peace on earth, and good-will toward men."
"We are the United States government--we don't do that sort of thing!"
-Sneakers
Katrina Spencer
Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
> reasons that they might not be showing all they have (Piccolo is a
> Macchiavellian manipulative bastard who's quite capable of letting
> other people get killed if it will acheive some goal of his; Kuririn
Dah-ling...another unsubstantiated claim. *sigh* Not only did
Piccolo-chan voluntarily become a good guy (unlike Vejiita-sama, who did
it very reluctantly), he did resorb Kami-sama, thus tempering his (already
relatively mellowed) temper *ahem*.
Again, I accuse you of being a Gokuu-fanboy =P
Katrina [official keeper of the Vejiita/Piccolo/Trunks Shrine] Spencer
--
If only you could put your mind to something worthwhile! You're like
Lex Luthor!
-- Jerry Seinfeld, to Kramer
Isaac J. Sher
davi...@imap1.asu.edu writes:
>A friend of mine just got into Dragonball Z in a big way and wants to
>know what the power heirarchy is among the good guys. I'm not much for
>Dragonball myself, so could someone put the gang in rank order?
>
>For completeness's sake, include:
>
>Chaos, #18, Krillin, Yamcha and Vegita.
>
>how strong they were at various points in their careers. Thanks.
Well, this has been done before, but what the hell. I'll state my opinions.
Beginning of DBZ:
Gokuu and Piccolo about even.
Gohan a small deus ex machina, able to damage Raditz, but not fatally.
[Gokuu dies]
[Vegita and Nappa appear]
Top to bottom:
--Vegita (not yet a good guy)
--Piccolo
--Tenshinhan and Kuririn tied (IMHO, although Ten seems to have more firepower,
he died, and Kuririn DIDN'T.)
--Gohan (Trained by Piccolo for a year, and still able to become were-monkey)
--Yamcha
--Chaoz
Once Gokuu reappears, now with the Genki Dama and Kaiou-Ken techniques, place
him above Vegita, but barely.
[Freeza Saga]
I can't comment on this, having seen very little of it, but I do know of
several powerups that occurr:
--Gokuu first achieves Super Saiyajin 1.
--Kuririn given powerboost by Namekseijins.
--Gohan given yet more training.
--Vegita recieves a powerboost from Kuririn (sorta)
(In that case, Vegita rationalized that since Saiyajin get major boosts if
they almost get killed, he asked Kuririn to blast him. Kuririn did so, and
Vegita recovered and gained at least some more power -- "That which does not
kill you will make you stronger.")
[Return to Earth; Red Ribbon androids and Cell Game]
Top to bottom:
--Gokuu (control of SS1, instant teleporting from training at Yardrat)
--Future Trunks (2nd person to manifest SS1, I believe)
--Vegita (eventually learns SS1, and becomes on par with F.Trunks)
--Piccolo (Merges with Kami-sama and Nails for MAJOR boost)
--Gohan (learns SS1, skyrockets to top of list at end of Cell Game when he
reaches Super Saiyajin 2, the first person to do so)
--#18 (still a baddie at this point)
--Kuririn (able to at least hold his own against Not-Quite-Perfect Cell)
--Tenshinhan
--Yamcha
--Chaoz (but who cares? :)
[Trunks born]
[Gokuu dies]
[Future Trunks returns to own time]
[End of Cell Game, gap of many years]
[Goten born (conceived right before Cell game, apparently]
Power levels at this point get a little excessive, and begin to vary WILDLY.
I've not seen all of these episodes, but I'll do what I can.
--Gojita/Vegito (Fusion of Gokuu/Vegita)
--Gokuu (Learns SS*3*, Fusion technique)
--Vegita (Allows self to be possessed by the Majins to get powerboost, on par
with Gokuu before SS3 revealed, attains SS2 before suicide)
--Gohan (lots of training by Kaioushin, still able to reach SS2)
--Gotenks (Goten/Trunks fusion. Lots o' power, next to ZERO ability to utilize
it all due to internal goten/trunks debate. Reaches SS3.)
--Piccolo (you'll get LOTS of debate as to where he actually fits in. This is
my take on it.)
--Trunks (SS1)
--Goten (SS1, Trunks has slight edge on him in power and fighting chutzpah)
--#18 (not that we see much of her)
--Kuririn
--Yamcha (not a factor at this point)
(Tenshinhan and Chaozu gone, Ten presumably eloping with Lunch... :)
Trunks and Goten may be above Piccolo, and #18 might be above the kiddies,
depending on who you ask.
Does that help? :) Friendly debate on this more than welcome!
--Isaac Sher
Earlham College
Richmond, Indiana
Dr. Briefs
>In article <4dg4gq$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, NKJem <nk...@aol.com> wrote:
>>1. Gohan (however, he rarely gets mad enough to show his real power, so
>>he's really like a #2)
>Not a chance. He was the man of the hour during the Cell story, but Chichi
>has turned him into 100% wimp by now. Oh, how the mighty have fallen ...
>In much the same way as a Smith and Wesson beats four aces, SSJ^3 beats all
>comers. ^_^ Goku wins the #1 spot, even if it is only by virtue of primary-
>character syndrome.
I would put Goku in the #1 spot, too, but I think you're not giving Gohan
enough credits...
True, SSJ3 is very powerful, but Gohan's powerup from Dai Kaioushin seems to
have made him more powerful. This is still somewhat up for debate, though.
By the end of the entire series, however, I would think Goku has surpassed
Gohan greatly, since Gohan stopped training, while Goku continued.
>At the end of the story, my opinion:
>#0: BUBBLES! You KNOW he's been running the show all this time! ^_^
^_^
>#1: (OK, seriously now) SSJ3 Goku
>#2: Vejito -- Goku/Vejita permafusion (can you imagine what they'd have
> been like if they BOTH had been SSJ3?!)
>#3: Ultimate Buu
>#4: Gotenks -- Goten/Trunks tempfusion
>#5: Vejita (Vej and Goku were NOT equal. I'm going to catch hell for this :)
Keep a sword with yourself at all times, as you may need to cut off Katchan's
tail if she decides to wait for the next full moon... ;)
>#6: Future Trunks
>#7: Juu-hachi gou
Is this No. 18? No. 17 and Piccolo are way stronger than she is..
>#8: Chibi Trunks
>#9: Chibi Goten
>#10 and up: don't even bother. They all just sorta smear together from here
> on out.
>No, Piccolo's not on the list. Wasp-kun would have you believe the Man in
>Green engineered the whole thing and could have stepped in at any time, but
>once again it's a matter of opinion.
While I don't agree with Sea Wasp's theory with Piccolo, I don't think
Piccolo rates that low, either. Remember, after he remerged with Kamisama,
he because tied power-wise to #17 (who was stronger than #18), and
afterwards, he also went training in the Room of Spirit and Time, and even
Goku has commented that Piccolo has had a signifigant increase in power from
that (even though he was still no match for Perfect Cell).
>Really, ranking /anybody/, especially
>the Saiyajin, is an exercise in futility; the show just keeps pumping
>everybody up at different rates ...
Too true, too true.
Dr. Briefs
>>>Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, little Trunks, Future Trunks, Tenshinhan,
>Chaos, #18, Krillin, Yamcha and Vegita.<<
>1. Gohan (however, he rarely gets mad enough to show his real power, so
>he's really like a #2)
>2. Gokuu/Vejiita--Tied
By the end of the series, Goku should be #1..
>3. Future Trunks
>4. #18 (She beat Goten & Trunks in the world tournament)
>5. Little Trunks (although I've only seen him at age 8)
>6. Goten
>7. Piccolo (you know, I really can't rank him. What he lacks in power, he
>makes up for in fighting genius; anyway, I haven't seen him fight in quite
Piccolo is much stronger than #18. For reasons stated in my last post.
>a few episodes)
>8. Tenshinhan
>9. Yamucha
>10. Kililyn
Yamcha was NEVER stronger than Kuririn (well, maybe BEFORE Kuririn was
trained by Kamesennin, but ever since then, he's been trailing). I think
Tenshinhan and Kuririn are probably at about the same level; Kuririn might
even be a bit stronger than Tenshinhan.
>11. Chaouzu (haven't seen him fight in a long time, either)
Yajirobe would probably be stronger than Chaozu.
I think Kaioushin is probably around the same power range as #18... Piccolo
over-estimated him too much, just because he thought "Dai Kaiou" should be
much stronger.
Hey, has everyone forgotten about Ubuu? Power-wise, he is way up there...
He just doesn't know how to use his power.
Katrina Spencer
"Dr. Briefs" (br...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
> Gautama Buddha wrote:
>>#1: (OK, seriously now) SSJ3 Goku
>>#2: Vejito -- Goku/Vejita permafusion (can you imagine what they'd have
>> been like if they BOTH had been SSJ3?!)
>>#3: Ultimate Buu
>>#4: Gotenks -- Goten/Trunks tempfusion
>>#5: Vejita (Vej and Goku were NOT equal. I'm going to catch hell for this :)
> Keep a sword with yourself at all times, as you may need to cut off Katchan's
> tail if she decides to wait for the next full moon... ;)
If the Prince himself can admit it, *I* can admit it. But anyone who says
it with even a HINT of contempt can, as you mentioned, wait for the next
full moon...
>>#6: Future Trunks
>>#7: Juu-hachi gou
> Is this No. 18? No. 17 and Piccolo are way stronger than she is..
#17 is on the same level as #18, only he died and somewhere along the line
became reasonably benevolent after his resurrection. I would say that
Piccolo, with Nail and Kami absorbed into him, could kick their respective
butts.
Katrina
Dr. Briefs
>>Is this No. 18? No. 17 and Piccolo are way stronger than she is..
>#17 is on the same level as #18, only he died and somewhere along the line
>became reasonably benevolent after his resurrection. I would say that
>Piccolo, with Nail and Kami absorbed into him, could kick their respective
>butts.
Well, okay, #17 wasn't _way_ stronger, but Piccolo should be by now.
It is an agreed upon fact that #17 is slightly stronger than #18, which #18
acknowledges. When Piccolo re-merged with Kami-sama, he became at the same
power level as #17. However, #17's power source is infinite, so in a long
fight, Piccolo will eventually lose.
Later on, after Cell reached his "perfect" level, Piccolo also went into the
Room of Spirit and Time, and has made a signifigant power-up, which Goku
immediately noticed. I'd definately say that this puts Piccolo somewhere on
the map here...
Ian Kelley
> >#3. SSJ3 Gotenks: Comparing Gotenks with Goku is tough since they're
> > about on the same level but Gotenks seemed to be able to stand up to Super
> > Buu better.
> >#4. Goku: He's tough and may still be the main character but he ain't
> > the most powerful anymore. Still, he can kick some major butt.
>
> You have to remember who they were fighting. While SSJ3 Gotenks fought with
> "Super Buu," SSJ3 Goku fought with "Ultimate Buu". Super Buu still had Fat
> Buu inside of him, who had two Kaioushins inside of him, down-grading his
> power. Ultimate Buu is much stronger than Super Buu, who is probably
> slightly stronger than Fat Buu.
>
Hmm, I have to disagree with you here, Original Buu (Super Buu w/o Fat Buu
absorbed) is not as powerful as Super Buu, but the fact that he has no
form of restraint whatsoever makes him the most dangerous. Keep in mind
that Goku was very worried when he was about to be attacked by Super Buu,
yet had less problems fighting against Original Buu. Also keep in mind
that Fat Buu did fairly well against Original Buu, but got his butt kicked
by Skinny Buu (the guy who came out of his head via smoke), who was even
weaker than Super Buu. So my guess is that Original Buu is the second
weakest Buu form we see, Fat Buu being the weakest. Not that any of them
are weak in any sense. I wish Toriyama gave some set names to all of the
many Buu forms, it starts getting difficult to explain!
> And since Goku has been training while Goten and Trunks haven't...
>
> >#5. Buu: He was able to hold out against Original Buu a lot longer than
> > Vegita, plus he's almost impossible to kill with that putty-body.
>
> Which Buu? I think ten years after Ultimate Buu was killed, Vegeta is
> probably stronger. While Fat Buu ate normal food and faked Mr. Satan's
> victory at the Budokai, Vegeta has been training relentlessly.
>
Whoops, maybe I should have clarified better; Fat Buu was holding off
Original Buu (the one that looks like a kid) while Goku was powering up
his Super Genki-dama. As for Vegita surpassing Buu, this is quite possibly
true; I forgot to mention when I gave my list that I was stating it before
the 2-manga installment "10 years later" saga, but after Original Buu got
killed. At that point it's just too nebulous. For all we know Vegita or
even Trunks could have gained the ability to go SSJ3; we never really
learn exactly what has happened in terms of power levels in the past 10
years.
--Ian
Ian Kelley
Well here's my $.02 on the subject
#1. Vegito: Able to beat up Buu even with Gohan absorbed, this guy is TOUGH!
#2. Gohan: With Old Kaioshin's powerup, he even surpasses SSJ3 Goku.
Too bad he doesn't have the fighter attitude as well.
#3. SSJ3 Gotenks: Comparing Gotenks with Goku is tough since they're
about on the same level but Gotenks seemed to be able to stand up to Super
Buu better.
#4. Goku: He's tough and may still be the main character but he ain't
the most powerful anymore. Still, he can kick some major butt.
#5. Buu: He was able to hold out against Original Buu a lot longer than
Vegita, plus he's almost impossible to kill with that putty-body.
#6. Vegita: He really, really wants to be #1, but can't cut it. Still,
he's pretty tough and even has a conscience somewhere way down there.
#7. Future Trunks: Too bad bad we don't get to see him after the Cell
saga, I bet he'd be even better than Vegita given the proper training.
#8. Piccolo: With Kami and Nail fused with him, he's even stronger than
default Super-Saiyajin level. Maybe he's even tougher, he is a real
introverted type guy, maybe he just doesn't choose to fight real tough.
#9. Chibi Trunks/Goten: Eventually they will surpass Piccolo but they
are just learning to use their power and can only go Super-Saiyajin 1. In
the future they will probably be much better.
#10. #18: Just a little less powerful than Piccolo, she's still pretty
tough and could probably hold her own against the more powerful crew.
#11. Kulilin: He may have no self-confidence, but he's always pitted
against the nastiest bad guys (Freezer, the Ginyu team, Nappa, etc.) and
could still do pretty well. He did a whole lot better against Nappa than
Tenshinhan did.
#12. Tenshinhan: Considering he used to be second only to Goku, he's
dropped a whole lot down the list! He's tough, but spent a good deal of
the series dead while everyone else was getting lots tougher.
#13. Yamucha: Never was much of a contender except in the few first
episodes and has always been trailing behind everyone else ever since.
#14. Chaozu: Considering the only times we've seen him fight was when
he blew himself up and when fought Kulilin waaay back when, now he's not
much more than a moving target if he fought the bigger bad guys.
Well, that's my list of who I think would be the toughest. Just my opinion.
--Ian
Alexander Chen
Not necessarily. Goten did reach SSJ1 at a younger age than any of the other
Saiyajins, but this doesn't necessarily mean that he will be able to attain the
other SSJ stages.
If you look at the last chapter of DBZ, we see that he has not been training
anywhere near as hard as Goku or Gohan did when they were young. He was also
very worried about facing Buu in the Tournament, indicating that his power
level wasn't anywhere near Buu's. This is when he was about 17 or so.
Just because Goten reached a more powerful level when he was young doesn't
necessarily mean that he has more potential. Perhaps he had less potential, but
was just able to realise it ealier?
Alex Chen.
Dr. Briefs
>Well here's my $.02 on the subject
>#1. Vegito: Able to beat up Buu even with Gohan absorbed, this guy is TOUGH!
Well, arguably, he could be #1, but remember, ten years have passed since the
Buu saga. Who knows what Goku's trainings in these ten years have taken him?
If he ever goes through the same rate of powerup in these ten years as he did
the previous ten, I'd say he's probably much better than Vegeto was. And
since Vegeta refuses to re-fuse with Kakaroto again...
>#2. Gohan: With Old Kaioshin's powerup, he even surpasses SSJ3 Goku.
> Too bad he doesn't have the fighter attitude as well.
Similar argument as the one above..
>#3. SSJ3 Gotenks: Comparing Gotenks with Goku is tough since they're
> about on the same level but Gotenks seemed to be able to stand up to Super
> Buu better.
>#4. Goku: He's tough and may still be the main character but he ain't
> the most powerful anymore. Still, he can kick some major butt.
You have to remember who they were fighting. While SSJ3 Gotenks fought with
"Super Buu," SSJ3 Goku fought with "Ultimate Buu". Super Buu still had Fat
Buu inside of him, who had two Kaioushins inside of him, down-grading his
power. Ultimate Buu is much stronger than Super Buu, who is probably
slightly stronger than Fat Buu.
And since Goku has been training while Goten and Trunks haven't...
>#5. Buu: He was able to hold out against Original Buu a lot longer than
> Vegita, plus he's almost impossible to kill with that putty-body.
Which Buu? I think ten years after Ultimate Buu was killed, Vegeta is
probably stronger. While Fat Buu ate normal food and faked Mr. Satan's
victory at the Budokai, Vegeta has been training relentlessly.
[snip]
The rest I pretty much agree with you. But remember, Yamcha, Tenshinhan,
Chaozu, and Piccolo were all training under Kaiou-sama while Kuririn was
fighting Dodoria.. and got a powerup from Saichourou. Since the whole lot,
with the exception of Piccolo, didn't fight much more after this, we don't
know if Tenshinhan has trained to become stronger than Kuririn w/ the
powerup..
Adrian Y Hsiah
>
>Chaos, #18, Krillin, Yamcha and Vegita.
>
list but here is my personal list :
DB Fighters TOP 20 !!
#0 Bulma/Chichi
Having command over the most powerful being on the planet, they are the
ultimate in the power hierachy ;P !!!
#1 Vejito or Gogeta (depends on either the cartoon or movie.)
Anyway, he beat up Final Boo badly, no one else could. Case closed.
#2 Gohan
He is not the same after he becomes the Great Saiyaman but after the powerup
in the Boo saga, he kicked his ass.
#3 Final Boo
He kicked everyone, destroyed all Earthlings and soundly trounced the Z
fighters. Need I say more ?
#4 Gotunks
He was having the time of his life until he got absorbed. Seriously injured
Final Boo and gave him a run for his money.
#5 Gokou
Despite what I have read, SS3 is powerful but he was having a decent fight
with the original Boo... would stand a chance against Final Boo.... for about
10 seconds....
#6 Original Boo
More powerful than Vegeta, less than Gokou.....
#7 Vegeta
He gets kicked in by Orig. Boo.... great...
#8 Future Trunks
He is low mainly because he left before the Boo saga. He was nowhere near
Perfect Cell and never even managed to get to SS2.... may have been better
than his dear father when he left but Vegeta has been working hard and finally
reached SS2...
#9 #18
Still the most deadly of the non Alien fighters.
#10 Kaiohshin merged form
Well, they never fought a lot but they WERE the Kaioh Shins....
#11 (tied.) Goten/Trunks (Young)
Well, despite being SS and having the suicidal enthusiasm for a fight, these
two kids are close to being ineffective when not merged. Trunks will get
better but only because he gets to be in DBGT. Also, remember they were beaten
by #18.... although in their support, they did defeat a crapped up Broly.
#13 Piccolo
Having no particular use, no particular ability, this guy has taken a
signifigant dive in power ratings ever since the Cell saga. Except for the
volleyball move, did absolutely nothing to aid the defeat of Boo.
#14 Tenshinhan
Being left in the dust by the rest, he mantains as the most powerful of the
now backup cast. He is good for the occasional energy dispersion and maybe a
diversion but useless towards the end... will NEVER even come close to beating
Gokou like he wanted so long ago.....
#15 Kliliyn
Losing the edge to TSH, he used to be tied with Gohan and even TSH, he is now
the comic relief that DBZ needed so much.
#16 Yamucha
He was beaten by a plant creature thing, #20 and then by Final Boo. This guy
hasn't done anything useful since original DB. Never won anything, don't
expect him to do anything anymore.
#17 Videl
Having gained power from training with Gohan and Goten, she is a powerful
fighter (relative to the average person)....
#18 Gohan and Videl daughter (name ?)
Being so young I have no idea how powerful she is except she could possibly
turn to SS one day.....
#19 Mr Satan
Ultimate comic relief.. saviour of the world.... ego the size of a Genki
Dama...
#20 Mr Satan's Dog
Been thru the Boo saga and survived... makes him a winner in my book..
Well, there's my list.... 10 secs after I send this, about 7 people will
pounce on it and tell me how ridiculous this list is....
Feel free to comment.
Aidz.
/-----------------------------------------------------------------\
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| Name : Adrian Y Hsiah E-mail : aidz-...@nwu.edu |
| Nick-name : Aidz Homepage : Not quite yet |
| |
| School : Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA |
| Tel : (708) 332-7655 |
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|o o|
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/
Depressed
BTW, my rankings are on fighting ability, not potential power.
1 Vejito/Gogeta - No match for Gokou and Vegita combined. Example, in
movie 12 (viewing it as a possible occurance, not an alternative one),
He(they) destroyed the creature that Gokou and Vegita both almost died at
the hands of, without any amount of effort. Appartently, this creature was
about 100000X more powerful than, say, Freeza, whom Gohan destroyed with a
single hit in that same movie. Watching the fight at the end between these
two(three?) was like watching Gokou vs. Mr Satan or something. Amazing!
Plus, he smacked Buu around pretty damn badly!
2 Gokou - He has pretty much been #1 for most of the series. Some may
argue Gohan is better, but without the will to use his power, he's not.
Gokou is a true fighter who go all the way anytime.
3 Gohan - Even though Chi chi has wussed him out, he is a damn good
fighter.
4 Trunks (adult) - As the second to obtain Super Saiya-jin status, he's
had plenty of time to improve more than daddy. Besides, the way of the
Saiya-jin is the son surpasses the father.
5 Vegita - Prince of the Saiya-jin, too proud to just let himself lose a
fight.
6 Gotenks - I'd say within a few years, they'll be # 1.
7 Piccolo - I think maybe he could be even as high as # 2, but his current
power level is unknown.... BTW, most rate him far too low, he's a true bad
ass, but he just hasn't really shown it. I think he is far more powerful
than any think.
8 Trunks-chan - He's a fighter and a the king of smart-asses. A bit better
than Goten, but only a little. I think mooning people is a newly
discovered special attack.
9 Goten - He will be better than Gohan, he will be better than Gohan....
10 #18 - Scary!
11 Kirlyn - Stupid! But still a little scary! (seriously, he just has bad
luck)
12 Viedal - Who would have known? Mr Satan's daughter a good fighter!
Katrina Spencer
NKJem (nk...@aol.com) writes:
>>>>#17 is on the same level as #18, only he died and somewhere along the
> line<<<
Oh, you must be thinking of all those Mirai-Trunks / #17 doujinshi, ne,
darling?
*blink*
*blink*
*duck flying anvil*
Katchan [laughing evilly]
Nick
>>he's really like a #2)
royal at full power, Gohan would have wiped the floor with anyone....
except Pan :>
>>2. Gokuu/Vejiita--Tied
>By the end of the series, Goku should be #1..
>Hey, has everyone forgotten about Ubuu? Power-wise, he is way up
there...
>He just doesn't know how to use his power.
At this point in the series, who really cared anymore?
--
Nick aka Mael
--
Proud member, DBZLF. Death to the dub.
--
Bora Lee
1. Vegito
2. SSJ 3 Goku
3. Gohan
4. Gotenks
5. Vegita
6. Trunks
7. Goten
8. Piccolo
9. #18
10. Kuririn
11. Tenshinhan
12. Yamucha
13. Chaoz
14. Videl <--- Not positive about this.
15. Yajirobe
16. Kamesenin
Now we can post about a million article arguing about this. :)
--
#define NAME "Bora Lee - graduated from U of W in CS / Econ major"
#define EMAIL "b2...@cayley.uwaterloo.ca"
#define PLAN "Find primodial black holes to prove Universe will shrink someday"
#define QUOTE "Holes? Hmmm... Donuts... - Homer"
Dr. Briefs
>Hmm, I have to disagree with you here, Original Buu (Super Buu w/o Fat Buu
>absorbed) is not as powerful as Super Buu, but the fact that he has no
>form of restraint whatsoever makes him the most dangerous. Keep in mind
>that Goku was very worried when he was about to be attacked by Super Buu,
Yes, but at that time, Super Buu had absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, and later
Gohan... so you can't really compare that to the true original Buu.
>yet had less problems fighting against Original Buu. Also keep in mind
>that Fat Buu did fairly well against Original Buu, but got his butt kicked
>by Skinny Buu (the guy who came out of his head via smoke), who was even
>weaker than Super Buu. So my guess is that Original Buu is the second
>weakest Buu form we see, Fat Buu being the weakest. Not that any of them
Remeber that the Fat Buu we first see and the Fat Buu who got eaten by Skinny
Buu have very different power levels. The Fat Buu who got eaten had much
less than half of his original powers, because Skinny Buu had most of it. I
think the Fat Buu who later fights with Original Buu is probably more on the
level of the original Fat Buu..
(This means that Super Buu is probably only about as strong as the original
Fat Buu. He is more dangerous than Fat Buu because he is not so naive.)
>are weak in any sense. I wish Toriyama gave some set names to all of the
>many Buu forms, it starts getting difficult to explain!
>Whoops, maybe I should have clarified better; Fat Buu was holding off
>Original Buu (the one that looks like a kid) while Goku was powering up
>his Super Genki-dama. As for Vegita surpassing Buu, this is quite possibly
>true; I forgot to mention when I gave my list that I was stating it before
>the 2-manga installment "10 years later" saga, but after Original Buu got
>killed. At that point it's just too nebulous. For all we know Vegita or
>even Trunks could have gained the ability to go SSJ3; we never really
>learn exactly what has happened in terms of power levels in the past 10
>years.
SSJ3, Vegeta, maybe; Trunks, not likely... Since based on Vegeta's comments,
Trunks hasn't been training much, either.
Ian Kelley
(Katrina Spencer) wrote:
>
> And what you just said kind of contradicts what you said about him being a
> manipulative bastard, ne? Macchiavellian I would have to agree with, in
> the purest sense of the word. But he *is* a good guy...and I can't agree
> with you that he does everything solely for his own benefit. Naturally
> he's still #1 in his books, but he does have other interests in mind =)
> I don't think Dende would have let Piccolo-chan sit next to him at the
> budoukai if Piccolo was as evil as you depicted him in your original post
> ;P
>
I have to agree that Piccolo is not manipulative and self-centered; in
fact I'd say he cares more about the fate of the earth more than the
majority of the other Z fighters, maybe because he fused with Kami-sama, I
don't know. When he sees Majin-Buu running around on Earth killing people
right and left he is very distressed, and we see that he is willing to
sacrifice his life to save the earth when he destroys the entrance to the
Seishin to Toki no Heya in an attempt to seal up Buu. He certainly cares
more about what happens to the Earthlings than Goku does; yes, Goku
sacrificed his life to save Earth during the Cell saga, but he's also
willing to play with the lives of the weaker Earthlings if it means he can
get a good fight or watch a good fight. Waaay back when after Trunks makes
his first appearance, he won't let anyone kill Dr. Gero so he can fight
the Artificial Humans. Note how Piccolo keeps silent through all this.
Plus when he first goes SSJ3 he could have easily killed Fat Buu, but
chooses not to so that Goten/Trunks can do it instead. When Piccolo asked
Goku if he'd be able to kill Fat Buu as SSJ3 Goku says "Well, I don't
know, he's really tough," when he knew perfectly well he could win, which
he admits to Vegita later on. Although Piccolo wasn't always such a great
guy, he became a character who really demands respect, at least more than
Goku or Vegita. Piccolo's not my favorite character but he sure ranks up
there; at least he has a conscience. Just MHO.
--Ian
--
Sea Wasp
Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
>> reasons that they might not be showing all they have (Piccolo is a
>> Macchiavellian manipulative bastard who's quite capable of letting
>> other people get killed if it will acheive some goal of his; Kuririn
>Dah-ling...another unsubstantiated claim. *sigh* Not only did
>Piccolo-chan voluntarily become a good guy (unlike Vejiita-sama, who did
>it very reluctantly), he did resorb Kami-sama, thus tempering his (already
>relatively mellowed) temper *ahem*.
>
>Again, I accuse you of being a Gokuu-fanboy =P
Actually, Piccolo is my favorite character. I chose to dress up
as Goku because making a Piccolo costume was entirely beyond my ability.
Now everyone associates me with Goku-chan.
During the Cell game, Piccolo comes out and TELLS them that he's
just using them for his own purposes. No one believes him, of course,
but isn't that one of the classic tactics -- say something true in an
outrageous manner, no one believes you, and so later on they can't even
said that you lied?
Look at how Piccolo operates. How do you train someone who is
basically peaceful (Gohan) to become a warrior? Why, you drop them
into a sink or swim situation. Now, he came to care for Gohan; I don't
think anyone would dispute that. However, even if he did, that doesn't
mean that he can't still be manipulative. Piccolo is by far the smartest
member of the Z-team; oh, Gohan may have a higher intelligence, but he
hasn't got the observation and strategy that Piccolo does; Gohan's
inherited some of his father's lack of clues.
Examine Piccolo's history. At the end of his first battle with
Goku, he gets killed. The new "Piccolo-chan" has to re-learn everything
the old Piccolo had. He does this in five years. When he shows up, he
is now equal to the NEW Goku, who is far more powerful than the Goku
that beat him those five years ago -- Goku's been training all that
time. With Kami, no less. Yet Piccolo has managed to go from 0 - Goku
in five years. That's a learning curve you DON'T want to think about.
Even if his inherited memories gave him a LARGE leg-up in the relearning
process, he still lost SOME of that time and yet stayed essentially
equal to Goku in the end. At worst, that means that he learns fighting
techniques just as fast as Goku; at best, it means he learns a hell of
a lot faster than Goku does.
Moreover, what does Piccolo DO all the time? We see him, outside
of battles, about 1/10 the time we do anyone else. All those years
that pass, the mean green machine is meditating and training. His
dedication makes Goku look like a weekend warrior. He could easily be
dozens of times stronger than all of them. Why then, you ask, doesn't
he save their butts?
Because, I say, it would WEAKEN the others. Look at Kuririn;
Goku has so overawed him that Kuririn feels small and puny. He has
so little confidence in himself that he probably will NEVER reach
his full potential. If Goku is always there to save your butt, aren't
you going to relax, slack off that tiny bit, because you know that
somehow Goku will pull a Hat out of the Rabbit? ;)
Piccolo saves Gohan, but usually gets TOASTED immediately
thereafter. This helps INCREASE Gohan's motivation. Checking a
Namek for death or not-death also is probably problematic; these people
have bizarre biologies. Piccolo is a magician, a former god, and
a Namek. Faking near-death, or even death, is probably not at all
beyond him. He regenerates, so being blown to bits isn't even a
guarantee that he's finished. He can shoot out an egg/seed pod that
will grow into another him in extremity. Maybe now that he's stronger
and united with Kami-sama, such eggs grow up even faster.
If Piccolo is indeed stronger than he appears to be, you can
interpret his holding back in two ways; one, he simply wants his friends
to become as strong as possible, and knows that if they realize what
he's capable of they will never reach their highest level. The second
possibility is that he wants one of them to become an opponent worthy
of his full power. He fought Goku, realized that Goku had immense potential,
so eventually let Goku win, after bringing Goku close to death (which
increases Goku's power). He did the same in the Budoukai. Since then,
he's been watching the changing ranks of the Z fighters and waiting.
One day, he will find the being that will give him a worthy challenge...
training Gohan, encouraging Fusion-waza... perhaps a fusion of all
the other Z-fighters?...
MEHA! KAMEH Sera-Fuku Bishonen Senshi
EHA AME Sailor Wasp
M ^@_____@^ H Sailor Suited Beautiful
"Trust me. A / / Sea \ \ A Box-Jelly Warrior
You don't have K / / Wasp \ \ !
much choice!" T ; /_________\ ; ! "For Love and Justice,
' ;|;;|;;|; N my .sig will give you
X | | | I a spanking!"
EDO ; ; ; D Z
KAMEN NEBLO Keeper of the Saint Seiya FAQ
Katrina Spencer
Raymond Wain-Kit Wong (rw...@columbia.edu) writes:
> Can someone explain why Gohan can't (or doesn't have to) go super-saiyajin
> after Dai-Kaiou-Shin's power-up? (HEY KAT-CHAN! Watch for this in your
> story, and explain it to me!)
*innocent blink*
Did *I* ever say he was SSJ?? I think not. Japhia has just seen this guy
surrounded by energy and a power level the likes of which she's never seen
-- naturally she assumes this is the Super Saiyajin (which she has never
seen, and no one has ever told her that just about everyone she's come in
contact with is a Super Saiyajin...). Don't make me spoil my own story =P
Katrina
NKJem
line<<<
Ah, but are you sure? <<eg>>.
NKJem
Raymond Wain-Kit Wong
Why don't we use sentou-ryouko (battle power rating) as a measurement of
the fighter's abilities? It seems pretty quantitative to me. For
reference, I think Freezer said he was a million at full strength.
Can someone explain why Gohan can't (or doesn't have to) go super-saiyajin
after Dai-Kaiou-Shin's power-up? (HEY KAT-CHAN! Watch for this in your
story, and explain it to me!)
Future Trunks is only stronger than his father during the Cell Game;
afterwards, Vegeta gets a whole lot stronger than Trunks.
Chibi Trunks and Goten are stronger than Kuririn by a lot; he fears them
in the Tenchikai-Budokai.
Ultimate Buu, or Little Buu, is less strong than Super Buu, that's why
Goku can still stand up to him.
By the end of the series, Goku probably has problems going to SSJ3, it's
not good for his body, after all. The only reason that Gotenks can do it
without problems is that the damage that SSJ3 does to you is probably
equally distributed to the two fusees. And Goku could do it before
because he was dead. That does not mean that he could not have refined
the technique in the meantime, or surpassed it; I just want to point out
that he could not reach full power in this form while he is alive.
That's enough for now. Any comments are gratefully accepted.
-Ray
Katrina Spencer
> In article <DLB1y...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
> Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
>>> reasons that they might not be showing all they have (Piccolo is a
>>> Macchiavellian manipulative bastard who's quite capable of letting
>>> other people get killed if it will acheive some goal of his; Kuririn
>>Dah-ling...another unsubstantiated claim. *sigh* Not only did
>>Piccolo-chan voluntarily become a good guy (unlike Vejiita-sama, who did
>>it very reluctantly), he did resorb Kami-sama, thus tempering his (already
>>relatively mellowed) temper *ahem*.
> interpret his holding back in two ways; one, he simply wants his friends
> to become as strong as possible, and knows that if they realize what
> he's capable of they will never reach their highest level. The second
> possibility is that he wants one of them to become an opponent worthy
> of his full power. He fought Goku, realized that Goku had immense potential,
> so eventually let Goku win, after bringing Goku close to death (which
> increases Goku's power). He did the same in the Budoukai. Since then,
> he's been watching the changing ranks of the Z fighters and waiting.
> One day, he will find the being that will give him a worthy challenge...
> training Gohan, encouraging Fusion-waza... perhaps a fusion of all
> the other Z-fighters?...
Well, forget the Training Gohan part, that's a lost cause. And most of
the fighters are old men now. So Fusion is likely out as well.
And what you just said kind of contradicts what you said about him being a
manipulative bastard, ne? Macchiavellian I would have to agree with, in
the purest sense of the word. But he *is* a good guy...and I can't agree
with you that he does everything solely for his own benefit. Naturally
he's still #1 in his books, but he does have other interests in mind =)
I don't think Dende would have let Piccolo-chan sit next to him at the
budoukai if Piccolo was as evil as you depicted him in your original post
;P
Katchan [keeper of the Vejiita/Piccolo/Trunks Shrine]
NKJem
Oh, you must be thinking of all those Mirai-Trunks / #17 doujinshi, ne,
darling?
*blink*
*blink*
*duck flying anvil*
Katchan [laughing evilly]<<<<
*WHAM!!* Katchan is pegged by the cinderblock flying immediately behind
the anvil. >=D
NKJem (a.k.a. Official Protector of Future-Trunks' Virile Image) =D
Andy Paulinski
: >>.( here's a little note: I
: wonder if Goku can SSJ in his young form in DBGT. Does this mean he will
: be evn more powerful than ever when he grows up again.).<<
: I never tjought of that. If so, he'd be really really powerful. If not,
: Goten will became the #1 as he gets older, because he is more powerful and
: a better fighter than Gokuo or Gohan at his age
Iie, I don't think so. =) Though darling Goten was more powerful and
schtuff than the other two at his age, he's also very lazy. =) (Just like
Alex-san said..)
In my opinion, I think Pan is the strongest... There's that thing with
being firstborn, ne?? Of course, I could be wrong.. <sweat>
But who's to say that maybe Shuu isn't the strongest? How about
Snow-chan? Bubbles and Pilaf would be at the top of my list. <grin> =)
(Gomen..gomen..)
: *********************************
: ^_^Depr...@aol.com^_^
: (now availible in Super Seyaijin form)
<giggle> Achan (now available in Half-Neko and Neko)
Depressed
Could Piccolo be dampening his use of power so he can stay in
control of his "Demon Lord" dark side? I had to ask.
^_^Depr...@aol.com^_^
(now availible in Super Saiya-jin form)
KAME(dramatic pause)HAME(dramatic pause)HA!(the villian laughs)
Nick
>increases Goku's power). He did the same in the Budoukai. Since then,
>he's been watching the changing ranks of the Z fighters and waiting.
>One day, he will find the being that will give him a worthy challenge...
>training Gohan, encouraging Fusion-waza... perhaps a fusion of all
>the other Z-fighters?...
>
this all sounds vaguely reminscient of certain skit..........
Seriously, Piccol is not as powerful as say, Gohan. He is without a doubt
a lot smarter (or at least a lot WISER) than most everybody, but not as
powerful.
Why would Piccolo hold back in these situations:
Furiiza killing everyone on Namekkusei?
He had no idea Gokuu could become a Super Saiyajin, and it was
getting pretty apparent that Gokuu wasn't going to win this one. Bejiita
was dead, Kuririn was way outclassed, and Gohan was still 5 years to
young to be able to kick any real ass. Also, his choice to push Gokuu out
of the way and take that bolt from Furiiza shows that if he is as wise as
he seems, he knew Gokuu had more of a chance.
Cell Game:
Piccolo could not beat the Jinzouningen outright, otherwise he
would have. He had no idea that Bejiita and Trunks would come out as
powerful as they did, and with Cell showing up half-way through it.....
Buu:
Buu is destroying the whole universe here. Who the hell cares if
these snotty little brats can fuse, ok maybe I'll let Gohan take him, but
hell, this is the whole UNIVERSE on the line....
Piccolo fused with Kamisama, but that doesn't make him
omniscieant (sp).
Raymond Wain-Kit Wong
>
> Raymond Wain-Kit Wong (rw...@columbia.edu) writes:
> > Can someone explain why Gohan can't (or doesn't have to) go super-saiyajin
> > after Dai-Kaiou-Shin's power-up? (HEY KAT-CHAN! Watch for this in your
> > story, and explain it to me!)
>
> *innocent blink*
>
> Did *I* ever say he was SSJ?? I think not. Japhia has just seen this guy
> surrounded by energy and a power level the likes of which she's never seen
> -- naturally she assumes this is the Super Saiyajin (which she has never
> seen, and no one has ever told her that just about everyone she's come in
> contact with is a Super Saiyajin...). Don't make me spoil my own story =P
>
> Katrina
>
Fine, I grant that you never said that he was SSJ, but you do say that he
is surrounded by a golden glow (if I remember correctly). Now DBZ is not
canon (and neither is your fan-fiction), but the anime clearly shows him
to have a golden aura when he is Super Saiyajin, and he only has a white
aura in his Dai-Kaiou-Shin power-up form. You still didn't answer my
question, though nicely enough you responded, "can he still go SSJ?" Which
would completely prove you right anyway. Also, does he lose the power-up
after he gets healed by Dende? Buu says (in the anime) that Gohan
doesn't seem as powered-up as he was before Buu kicked the crap out of him.
Sorry to nitpick, though I know you wanted comments. You can always
ret-con (that is, retro-active continuity) the whole situation by saying
he glowed like the sun, not necessarily golden. Or you can just edit it.
-Ray
William Geiger
Cell,
Brojack and Buu! Of course He did have some help from the Z fighters.
After
all, Even a hero needs sidekicks 8)
Seperated at birth?
Hikaru-Chan:"Happy! Happy! Lucky! Lucky!"
Stimpy-kun:"Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy!"
Nick
>
>Why don't we use sentou-ryouko (battle power rating) as a measurement of
>the fighter's abilities? It seems pretty quantitative to me. For
>reference, I think Freezer said he was a million at full strength.
Also, Saikyou no senshi Gohan and Bejiito would be giving calculators
overflow errors.
>Can someone explain why Gohan can't (or doesn't have to) go
super-saiyajin
>after Dai-Kaiou-Shin's power-up? (HEY KAT-CHAN! Watch for this in your
>story, and explain it to me!)
Because he didn't need to. The power-up drew out his current MAXIMUM of
power, which is why he could kick SSJ 3 Gokuu's ass while still "normal".
It only lasted 20 hours though (which is why saving mr satan instead of
Gohan was REALLY REALLY dumb)
>Future Trunks is only stronger than his father during the Cell Game;
>afterwards, Vegeta gets a whole lot stronger than Trunks.
Betsu no mirai Trunks was a lot cooler than his younger conterpart, so
lets forget the brat version :>
>Chibi Trunks and Goten are stronger than Kuririn by a lot; he fears them
>in the Tenchikai-Budokai.
Excuse the gripes here... but seriously:
super saiyajin was THE legendary power level. The Super Saiyajin could
destroy a planet. I think its a sign of SEVERE plot degradation when two
dinky little kids under 8 have the power to blow up a planet. It
certainly didn't show. The whole Buu section actually seemed to LESSEN
the power of the characters. IE, Gohan goes SSJ2 in a stadium and the
blast wave doesn't kill anyone, Juuhachigou had trouble fighting Goten
and Trunks (while she had really wailed on Trunks, Bejiita, Piccolo, etc
earlier), SSJ2 Bejiita exploding himself only does about as much area
damage as Gokuu's Anti-Furiiza Genkidama, etc
Sea Wasp
Andy Paulinski <andp...@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>Depressed (depr...@aol.com) wrote:
>: >>.( here's a little note: I
>: wonder if Goku can SSJ in his young form in DBGT. Does this mean he will
>: be evn more powerful than ever when he grows up again.).<<
>: I never tjought of that. If so, he'd be really really powerful. If not,
>: Goten will became the #1 as he gets older, because he is more powerful and
>: a better fighter than Gokuo or Gohan at his age
> Iie, I don't think so. =) Though darling Goten was more powerful and
>schtuff than the other two at his age, he's also very lazy. =) (Just like
>Alex-san said..)
> In my opinion, I think Pan is the strongest... There's that thing with
>being firstborn, ne?? Of course, I could be wrong.. <sweat>
If Goku can go Super-Saiyan as a young boy now, he will undoubtedly
remain #1. If not, it is POSSIBLE (though in my opinion, unlikely) that
either Pan or Goten will surpass him eventually.
Goten is lazy because he has more clues than his father and
posesses his father's talent to learn anything he sees once. So why
practice? He doesn't HAVE to! "Wow, that's the New Ultra-Super-Mega
Killer Attack That Can Beat Anything Else! You must've worked really
hard to invent that! Thanks for teaching to me!" He apparently can also
apply this talent to book study, so he doesn't even have to work in
school; "Oh, so THAT'S how calculus works." "Thanks for showing me
nuclear physics, Bulma."
Goku LIKES practicing, but if he wanted to HE could be a
lazy bum and do only the work necessary to keep himself in shape
(probably not much for a Saiyajin, since they're natural warriors).
Dr. Briefs
>"Dr. Briefs" <br...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>Is this No. 18? No. 17 and Piccolo are way stronger than she is..
>was supposed to be stronger than #16, remember?
That was only an assumption on #17's part. Both #16 and Dr. Gero it was the
other way around. ("If we're not careful, we may all die!" "'We may all
die'? What a joke... I'm stronger than him, aren't I?") You see, #17 had a
false perception of himself, that he is the ultimate cyborg that Dr. Gero
created. But the truth was, Cell was the most powerful creation from Dr.
Gero, followed by #16, then #17, and then #18. We know #17 is stronger than
#18 for several reasons:
1. Both #17 and #18 acknowledge it.
2. Vegeta fought with #18 (who, at his request, used her full power), and
was about evenly matched with her, but would eventually lose, because
#18 has an infinite power source.
3. Piccolo, after re-merging with Kami-sama, was stronger than a level one
Super Saiyajin, but was ONLY evenly matched with #17.
>And it was #16 who kicked (stage 1 cell) around. #16 is sadly no more. I
>agree Piccolo would be stronger than she is, after merging with kami-sama,
>but I believe she's well matched, with #17 and would kick his childish ass,
>being faster, smarter and filled to the brim with magic.
This is, of course, coming from your personal affections for the lovely (and
might I add--married!! You gonna take on Kuririn's personality, Steve? He
can still kick any of our butts, you know) cyborg. Methinks this may be
clouding your judgement, so that you think she is not less in strength
compared to #17, even if the difference is not that great..
Sea Wasp
>this all sounds vaguely reminscient of certain skit..........
Sure. It worked good in the skit, though I take the ideas
seriously (well, as seriously as you can take ANYTHING that has to
do with Dragonball...).
>Why would Piccolo hold back in these situations:
>Furiiza killing everyone on Namekkusei?
> He had no idea Gokuu could become a Super Saiyajin, and it was
>getting pretty apparent that Gokuu wasn't going to win this one. Bejiita
>was dead, Kuririn was way outclassed, and Gohan was still 5 years to
>young to be able to kick any real ass. Also, his choice to push Gokuu out
>of the way and take that bolt from Furiiza shows that if he is as wise as
>he seems, he knew Gokuu had more of a chance.
Why couldn't he know Gokuu would become the Super-Saiyajin? The
legend had been mentioned many a time (and for all we know, it may
have been common knowledge amoung the educated Namekians before Piccolo
even left); he had great experience with Gokuu and by now probably
KNEW what Goku's power level not only was, but what it COULD be.
Remember that he knows at this point probably more than anyone else about
what those powers are and how they are attained; I wouldn't be at all
surprised if he knew that Goku could become "Densetsu no Super-Saiyajin",
but ONLY if pushed to the right level. And remembering what drove
Goku even as a child, there's a good chance that Piccolo would even
have been able to tell you WHEN he'd go Super: when his oldest and
dearest friend, Kuririn, died.
As for taking blows meant for others, remember that if you
take my point of view, such blasts mean very little to Piccolo in
the real sense; he got himself hit to make sure people "knew" he was
out of the ball game.
>Cell Game:
> Piccolo could not beat the Jinzouningen outright, otherwise he
>would have. He had no idea that Bejiita and Trunks would come out as
>powerful as they did, and with Cell showing up half-way through it.....
Again, he knows these people. He knows (no one better) what
training in the Room of A Year in a Day can do. He knows that in much
LESS than a year Vegita went from what he was when he landed to
what he was when he fought Freezer. He has already seen and therefore
sensed Trunks, and has a good idea of what HE can really do (Piccolo
is a magician as well as a Ki warrior, though he very rarely demonstrates
his non-ki abilities, so he could well be able to sense more than
the rather thuggish Ki warriors). Add in the psychological situations
respecting Vegita and Trunks, and the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
>
>Buu:
> Buu is destroying the whole universe here. Who the hell cares if
>these snotty little brats can fuse, ok maybe I'll let Gohan take him, but
>hell, this is the whole UNIVERSE on the line....
> Piccolo fused with Kamisama, but that doesn't make him
>omniscieant (sp).
Makes him able to be damn near omniscient, given the right
conditions. I view him more like a Moriarty with a good streak --
the deductive abilities of Sherlock Holmes and almost no scruples.
A good actor, too, but he doesn't have to be Academy Award material
to fool Goku and company; much as I love Goku, he's absolutely
clueless. If my theory is correct, most of the people in that
universe wouldn't be able to even THINK of someone playing that
deep a game.
As for wiping out the universe, so what? If, in the end, Buu
bumps everyone off, THEN Buu is an adversary worthy to fight Piccolo.
If he doesn't, a Wish on the Dragon Balls and everything's fixed up.
Either way, Piccolo wins from his own point of view.
Of course, maybe it's really Kame-senin who's running the
show...
;}
Dr. Briefs
> If Goku can go Super-Saiyan as a young boy now, he will undoubtedly
>remain #1. If not, it is POSSIBLE (though in my opinion, unlikely) that
>either Pan or Goten will surpass him eventually.
Yeah... Goku starting over as a kid again, AND has the same amount of power
he did when he's in his 40s? He now has more potential to grow again... even
more than Goten or Pan, since they are now both physically older than he
is...
> Goten is lazy because he has more clues than his father and
>posesses his father's talent to learn anything he sees once. So why
Well, all except flying.... He picked up Kamehameha and other sorts of
ki-blasts really quickly, but I guess he was too young to think out how to
use his ki to fly without others telling him...
>practice? He doesn't HAVE to! "Wow, that's the New Ultra-Super-Mega
>Killer Attack That Can Beat Anything Else! You must've worked really
>hard to invent that! Thanks for teaching to me!" He apparently can also
>apply this talent to book study, so he doesn't even have to work in
>school; "Oh, so THAT'S how calculus works." "Thanks for showing me
>nuclear physics, Bulma."
I don't know where you got that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were all
true.
> Goku LIKES practicing, but if he wanted to HE could be a
>lazy bum and do only the work necessary to keep himself in shape
>(probably not much for a Saiyajin, since they're natural warriors).
Good point.
Dr. Briefs
>she...@yin.earlham.edu (Isaac J. Sher) writes:
>>Trunks and Goten may be above Piccolo, and #18 might be above the kiddies,
>>depending on who you ask.
>>Does that help? :) Friendly debate on this more than welcome!
>Does that make #18 stronger than Piccolo? Sorry, but no.
>Trunks and Goten are below Piccolo
>Trunks and Goten are below #18
>Gotenks, well, can (sadly) waste them both (maybe not Piccolo, 'specially if
>Katrina does the fanfic for that...
I don't think Piccolo can stand against SSJ3... Unless you agree with
Wasp-san's theory.
>And while I am taking this power out of context, do not for get that #18 was
>designed with a drive of infinte power (or something like that)
Very true. So unless someone was strong enough (or had the remote) to
disable her easily, she would eventually win the fight.
Dr. Briefs
^^^^^
(Oops, forgot to change that in my last post... Steve, I knew it was you,
and not your father, who posted..)
><br...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>It's a whole big mess. Let's just say that at the end of this part, Gohan
>>is the head hancho, Perfect Cell in for a close second.
>I think super-perfect cell was stronger than Gohan. Who knows how it would
>have turned out weren't it not for the courageous and most excellent Prince
>who blasted Cell in the head allowing the runt to finish him off
All Vegeta did was distract Cell a little. Gohan still needed to muster up a
stronger ki-level than Cell in order to have him obliterated. If Gohan
hadn't been stronger than Cell in final blow, all he would've been able to do
would've been just give Cell another somewhat serious injury (like he did
earlier, before Cell got another upgrade), to which Cell would just
regenerate again.
>(come on! We know who the strongest REALLY is don't we? Why else was Cell
>such a wimp after he coughed up #18?)
There you go again, Steve, letting your emotions cloud your judgement :)
Dr. Briefs
> Of course, maybe it's really Kame-senin who's running the
>show...
> ;}
Yes! Finally, someone sees this, too! ^^;
Kamesennin has always been trying to get his disciples to get stronger and
more mature.. He must've somehow planned everything out, so that his top
disciple, Goku, would appear to be #1 (while Kamesennin is actually still the
strongest)!! -_^
John Wallace
>From: she...@yin.earlham.edu (Isaac J. Sher)
>Trunks and Goten may be above Piccolo, and #18 might be above the kiddies,
>depending on who you ask.
>Does that help? :) Friendly debate on this more than welcome!
Does that make #18 stronger than Piccolo? Sorry, but no.
Trunks and Goten are below Piccolo
Trunks and Goten are below #18
Gotenks, well, can (sadly) waste them both (maybe not Piccolo, 'specially if
Katrina does the fanfic for that...
And while I am taking this power out of context, do not for get that #18 was
designed with a drive of infinte power (or something like that)
Steve Wallace
John Wallace
>From: "Dr. Briefs" <br...@ix.netcom.com>
>It is an agreed upon fact that #17 is slightly stronger than #18, which #18
>acknowledges.
So, #16 didn't argue with him either. Who stood up better vs Cell, hmm?
When Piccolo re-merged with Kami-sama, he became at the same
>power level as #17. However, #17's power source is infinite, so in a long
>fight, Piccolo will eventually lose.
#17 is too slow. #18 is speed and magic, toned down 'cause you don't see her
do anything anymore. From the time she wins the money from Satan to the point
where Kuririn (in the anime) goes after Buu when they're all turned to
chocolate she says not a word. Half the time she spoke before the tournament
all she said was "baka", anyways...
She'd do best to dodge anything big and powerful and maneuver herself best out
of the Green machine's way. Or she's toast. Fortunately, it takes time for
Piccolo to ever come up with anything really nasty...
>Later on, after Cell reached his "perfect" level, Piccolo also went into the
>Room of Spirit and Time, and has made a signifigant power-up, which Goku
>immediately noticed. I'd definately say that this puts Piccolo somewhere on
>the map here...
Hmmmm....
Steve Wallace
Katrina Spencer
John Wallace (Jo...@JohnW.seanet.com) writes:
>>From: she...@yin.earlham.edu (Isaac J. Sher)
>>Trunks and Goten may be above Piccolo, and #18 might be above the kiddies,
>>depending on who you ask.
>>Does that help? :) Friendly debate on this more than welcome!
> Does that make #18 stronger than Piccolo? Sorry, but no.
> Trunks and Goten are below Piccolo
> Trunks and Goten are below #18
> Gotenks, well, can (sadly) waste them both (maybe not Piccolo, 'specially if
> Katrina does the fanfic for that...
*GAH* How come it's always *my* responsibility?? =P But a teenaged
Gotenks, I have to admit, would be absolutely droolable...quite tempting,
I assure you =) But too nasty tempered for Ja-chan =)
> And while I am taking this power out of context, do not for get that #18 was
> designed with a drive of infinte power (or something like that)
Just means that while everyone else is stuffing their faces full of food,
#18 sits at the table with a drink in front of her which I doubt she fully
ingests =)
Katrina
NKJem
>>Granted, he [Future Trunks] was incredibly cool (everyone -- 1-2-3-
DROOL =P~~~). The
reason the present-timeline Trunks is such a brat is because he grew up
with Vejiita =) Not that there's anything wrong with that -- he just
isn't the gentle-hearted, somewhat effeminate guy we all learned to love
first. [oh, come on, a guy with a bolero jacket? if that's not
effeminate...]<<
That doesn't mean he's effeminate. It just means he has a better sense of
style than anyone else in DBZ. =P
NKJem (Defender of Future Trunks' Virile Image!!)
Katrina Spencer
Nick (ni...@eden.com) writes:
>>Why don't we use sentou-ryouko (battle power rating) as a measurement of
>>the fighter's abilities? It seems pretty quantitative to me. For
>>reference, I think Freezer said he was a million at full strength.
> Because after a while it stopped making sense.
> Also, Saikyou no senshi Gohan and Bejiito would be giving calculators
> overflow errors.
Even those two aside, Gokuu can cause a Scouter to shatter just by
powering up, and that's not even at SSJ3 =)
>>Can someone explain why Gohan can't (or doesn't have to) go
> super-saiyajin
>>after Dai-Kaiou-Shin's power-up? (HEY KAT-CHAN! Watch for this in your
>>story, and explain it to me!)
> Because he didn't need to. The power-up drew out his current MAXIMUM of
> power, which is why he could kick SSJ 3 Gokuu's ass while still "normal".
> It only lasted 20 hours though (which is why saving mr satan instead of
> Gohan was REALLY REALLY dumb)
In retrospect, yes; though Satan would have died, he would have been
resurrected later on. I think that had they been given a few moments to
think about it, they might have saved Gohan et al instead =)
>>Future Trunks is only stronger than his father during the Cell Game;
>>afterwards, Vegeta gets a whole lot stronger than Trunks.
> Betsu no mirai Trunks was a lot cooler than his younger conterpart, so
> lets forget the brat version :>
Granted, he was incredibly cool (everyone -- 1-2-3- DROOL =P~~~). The
reason the present-timeline Trunks is such a brat is because he grew up
with Vejiita =) Not that there's anything wrong with that -- he just
isn't the gentle-hearted, somewhat effeminate guy we all learned to love
first. [oh, come on, a guy with a bolero jacket? if that's not effeminate...]
> Excuse the gripes here... but seriously:
> super saiyajin was THE legendary power level. The Super Saiyajin could
> destroy a planet. I think its a sign of SEVERE plot degradation when two
> dinky little kids under 8 have the power to blow up a planet. It
But they're Super Saiyajin, right? =P
Katchan
John Wallace
>>#7: Juu-hachi gou
>Is this No. 18? No. 17 and Piccolo are way stronger than she is..
Are you kidding? Piccolo maybe, but as far as #17 is concerned, well, he was
supposed to be stronger than #16, remember? And it was #16 who kicked (stage
1 cell) around. #16 is sadly no more. I agree Piccolo would be stronger than
she is, after merging with kami-sama, but I believe she's well matched, with
#17 and would kick his childish ass, being faster, smarter and filled to the
brim with magic.
Heh, heh, heh.
>Glenn Wang <br...@ix.netcom.com>
>"I want peace on earth, and good-will toward men."
>"We are the United States government--we don't do that sort of thing!"
> -Sneakers
Steve Wallace
Kick ass cuties never die, they just have their voice actresses go on
sabbatical while they sit around for months staring and galring at everything.
(whoops!)
Change to: Kick ass cuties DO die, but they're ALWAYS wished back afterwards
Sea Wasp
Depressed <depr...@aol.com> wrote:
> b2...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Bora Lee) wrote:
>>16. Kamesenin
>No, he's way past being a factor anymore. He's way too old.
Too old? That's not relevant. He's immortal -- when we meet
him, he's over 300. The extra 15-30 years aren't going to make any
difference.
Powerwise, he does seem to have fallen behind the times, however.
But skill-wise he's probably still better than ANY of them. Except,
possibly, Piccolo, who was ancient when Kame-Senin was a young man.
The rest of them aren't OLD enough to have spent 300 years training.
I'd also point out that Kame-Senin's power level is not
quite as wimpy as people make out. He's a clown much of the time
and stays out of the major fights. But consider this: he *was* able
to blow up the Moon. Despite the fact that the Moon is considerably
smaller than Earth, the amount of energy necessary to pulverize
the Moon is still IMMENSE -- far, far more than either Goku or
Vegita released during their first battle (if even a thousandth that
much power was released on Earth, it would devastate entire
continents); in fact, that power level wasn't surpassed until Freezer.
Kame-Senin is a SENSEI. That means that he does not FIGHT
very often; he just trains OTHER people to fight.
Sea Wasp
Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
>> If Piccolo is indeed stronger than he appears to be, you can
>> interpret his holding back in two ways; one, he simply wants his friends
>> to become as strong as possible, and knows that if they realize what
>> he's capable of they will never reach their highest level. The second
>> possibility is that he wants one of them to become an opponent worthy
>> of his full power. He fought Goku, realized that Goku had immense potential,
>> so eventually let Goku win, after bringing Goku close to death (which
>> increases Goku's power). He did the same in the Budoukai. Since then,
>> he's been watching the changing ranks of the Z fighters and waiting.
>> One day, he will find the being that will give him a worthy challenge...
>> training Gohan, encouraging Fusion-waza... perhaps a fusion of all
>> the other Z-fighters?...
>Well, forget the Training Gohan part, that's a lost cause. And most of
>the fighters are old men now. So Fusion is likely out as well.
Old men? KAME-SENIN is an old man -- well over 300 -- and
he ain't rolling over and dying yet, m'dear. 45 isn't old. Especially
for Saiyajin, who are immortal (see Bulma's comment in the last manga
installment).
>And what you just said kind of contradicts what you said about him being a
>manipulative bastard, ne?
No. Please re-read. I said, you can interpret it TWO ways.
One makes him a Machiavellian "hero", the other makes him a manipulative
bastard.
Macchiavellian I would have to agree with, in
>the purest sense of the word. But he *is* a good guy...and I can't agree
>with you that he does everything solely for his own benefit.
I didn't say he did. I said it's one possibility -- one that
he publicly espoused, mind you.
Naturally
>he's still #1 in his books, but he does have other interests in mind =)
>I don't think Dende would have let Piccolo-chan sit next to him at the
>budoukai if Piccolo was as evil as you depicted him in your original post
>;P
Why? Dende trusts him. Piccolo could wipe the floor with Dende
in any contest you care to name -- physical or mental. If Dende tries
to sense Piccolo's "true motives", he'll sense precisely what Piccolo
WANTS him to sense -- no more and no less. So naturally Dende believes
Piccolo is a good guy -- Piccolo's his sensei and part of him is
Nail as well, so he can switch on the "see, I'm your old friend" bit
whenever he want to also.
Note again, *I AM NOT SAYING THAT PICCOLO IS A BAD GUY.* I'm
just pointing out that if he IS more powerful than he appears (for which
I believe there's some circumstantial evidence), then he could be
EITHER good or bad and NO ONE WOULD KNOW until *HE* let them.
My personal PREFERENCE is to say that the Mean Green Machine
is overall a good guy now, redeemed for the most part by Gohan-chan...
but still very capable of playing a deep game to ensure that he
doesn't become the cause of his friends' weakness by being a crutch
that they lean on (like Goku).
Joan Lau
On 21 Jan 1996, NKJem wrote:
> isn't the gentle-hearted, somewhat effeminate guy we all learned to love
> first. [oh, come on, a guy with a bolero jacket? if that's not
> effeminate...]<<
>
> That doesn't mean he's effeminate. It just means he has a better sense of
> style than anyone else in DBZ. =P
Hey, I have a jacket that looks almost the same as Trunk's, which I
brought it in purpose.
Joan
Wei-Hwa Huang
>Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
>> reasons that they might not be showing all they have (Piccolo is a
>> Macchiavellian manipulative bastard who's quite capable of letting
>> other people get killed if it will acheive some goal of his; Kuririn
>Dah-ling...another unsubstantiated claim. *sigh* Not only did
>Piccolo-chan voluntarily become a good guy (unlike Vejiita-sama, who did
>it very reluctantly), he did resorb Kami-sama, thus tempering his (already
>relatively mellowed) temper *ahem*.
To add to this, don't forget that the reason Piccolo was created was that
the nameless Namek wanted to purge himself of all evil so that he could
become the new Kami-sama. Hence, we would expect the recombined
"Kamecollo" to be basically good.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@cco.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reality only works when you use it. -- Instruction booklet, Reality
Wei-Hwa Huang
> b2...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Bora Lee) wrote:
>>16. Kamesenin
>No, he's way past being a factor anymore. He's way too old.
But he's gotten new shades! That must account for something! ^_^
Nick
would
>have turned out weren't it not for the courageous and most excellent
Prince
>who blasted Cell in the head allowing the runt to finish him off
only HALF POWERED kamehameha was able to overwhelm him once he had a
chance to muster thanks to Bejiita's distraction. Key part:
"But Otousan, my kamehameha will only be at half power because I can only
use one hand." <Not an exact quote>
--
Nick
--
Dragonball(z) FAQ http://www.eden.com/~nickm/db.html
Proud member, DBZLF.
--
Hell is for very bad people, and the lawyers that defend them.
Andy Hall
I'm looking for Magic Knight Rayearth scripts. For eps. 5-20. I already
have the ones for 1-4. Any and all help is appreciated. Please E-mail me
if you have any information. Thanks!
Andy
Katrina Spencer
Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
> Powerwise, he does seem to have fallen behind the times, however.
> But skill-wise he's probably still better than ANY of them. Except,
> possibly, Piccolo, who was ancient when Kame-Senin was a young man.
> The rest of them aren't OLD enough to have spent 300 years training.
>
True enough; but I think Gokuu could likely kick his butt if he wasn't so
respectful =)
> I'd also point out that Kame-Senin's power level is not
> quite as wimpy as people make out. He's a clown much of the time
> and stays out of the major fights. But consider this: he *was* able
> to blow up the Moon. Despite the fact that the Moon is considerably
Well, sure, he blew up the moon -- but that drained all his power (however
temporarily). He couldn't muster the power for a tiny Kame-Hame-Ha. He
had to win the budoukai by an actual physical attack =P (and the fact that
he managed to get to his feet and stay there =P)
Katrina
NKJem
for Saiyajin, who are immortal (see Bulma's comment in the last manga
installment).<<
Immortal? Whaddayamean? I thought they just had extra-long primes, or
something. *Unless . . .* (thoughtful look) . . . did they use the
Dragonballs to wish for immortality? (They might as well; they never stay
dead anyway. ;) )
NKJem
Dr. Briefs
>I suspect it'd be beyond even Porunga's ability to grant immortality for an
>/entire race/. ^_-
Makes me kinda wonder... if Saichourou (or Porunga) dies, and someone has
wished for eternal life, does that cancell the effects of the wish?
>I don't think the Saiyajin are naturally immortal, despite their apparent
>physical longevity. Consider: if they were, Vejita wouldn't have been so
>interested in grabbing the Namek balls, would he?
Too true..
>(I know what you're thinking. DON'T SAY IT. DON'T!)
Well, you should have brought it up, should you? >:)
--
Glenn Wang <br...@ix.netcom.com>, #SAS# member--Real men appreciate Sasami.
Veg...@nomad.net
#1 Vejito fusion
#2 Gogeta fusion
#3 Super Sayan 3 Son Gokou
#4 Gotenks (Super Sayan 3)
#5 Vegeta (I have very strong reasons for believing this, too)
#6 Gohan (probably tied with gokou after the power-up)
#7 Piccolo (I really want to believe he's more powerful than trunks)
#8 #18 (sorry, she's just too cool to be a wuss)
#9 Trunks (Remember, more ki then Goten)
#10 Goten
- Sayajin no ojii, Vegeta sama
Depressed
> Too old? That's not relevant. He's immortal -- when we meet
>him, he's over 300. The extra 15-30 years aren't going to make any
>difference.
> Powerwise, he does seem to have fallen behind the times, however.
>But skill-wise he's probably still better than ANY of them. Except,
>possibly, Piccolo, who was ancient when Kame-Senin was a young man.
>The rest of them aren't OLD enough to have spent 300 years training.
> I'd also point out that Kame-Senin's power level is not
>quite as wimpy as people make out. He's a clown much of the time
>and stays out of the major fights. But consider this: he *was* able
>to blow up the Moon. Despite the fact that the Moon is considerably
>smaller than Earth, the amount of energy necessary to pulverize
>the Moon is still IMMENSE -- far, far more than either Goku or
>Vegita released during their first battle (if even a thousandth that
>much power was released on Earth, it would devastate entire
>continents); in fact, that power level wasn't surpassed until Freezer.
>
> Kame-Senin is a SENSEI. That means that he does not FIGHT
>very often; he just trains OTHER people to fight.
I still gotta disagree. I've heard people in the anime & manga say that he
was once the strongest man on earth, but he's an old man now. Plus, what
do 300 years of training amount to when other can train a fraction of the
time and become more skilled. Remember, Gokou gained the Chouseisui in 3
days, it took Kame senin
3 years! And that was when Gokou was a little kid!
^_^Depr...@aol.com^_^
(now availible in Super Saiya-jin form)
KAME(dramatic pause)HAME(dramatic pause)HA!(the villian laughs)
Sea Wasp
As I recall, the dialogue went something like:
Goku: "Bulma-san, you look old!"
Bulma: (very annoyed) "That's because we HUMANS age, UNLIKE you
stupid Saiyans!"
This indicates to me that Saiyajin are either immortal or
effectively so -- so long-lived that human lifespans don't mean much to
them. Of course, most Saiyajin get KILLED before their lifespan becomes
relevant...
Depressed
if using the term Z fighters, enemies wouldn't count......
NKJem
Bulma: (very annoyed) "That's because we HUMANS age, UNLIKE you
stupid Saiyans!"
This indicates to me that Saiyajin are either immortal or
effectively so -- so long-lived that human lifespans don't mean much to
them. Of course, most Saiyajin get KILLED before their lifespan becomes
relevant...<<
I don't know if it means that they're immortal/effectively immortal.
There's a big difference between being long-lived and *immortal*.
Considering that we have seen *some* aging occur among the Saiyajin
(although I usually ignore the OAV's)--- I notice that Paragas [Brolly's
pop] aged quite a bit over his son's lifetime; in a flashback he looks a
good 10-15 years younger than he does throughout the rest of the movie.
I'd say he's hit the Saiyan equivalent of middle age. Vejiita's father
may have also---maybe that's why he had a beard and moustache, and his
hair (although that could just be artistic variances) seemed more
bluish/greyish than Vejiita's. The fact that they *can* age, and that the
rates seem to vary (at age 12, Gokuu looks 6. Then at age 40-something,
he looks 20) lends some credence to the idea that Saiyajin just linger
longer in the peak of their physical development. They take longer to get
there and stay there longer, and probably age slower once they're past it,
but they're not remotely immortal. At most, I'd guess, they probably live
twice as long as humans. Maybe 150 years or so on average. Again, you're
right---most of them get killed long before they reach that point.
NKJem
Dr. Briefs
>In article <4e5971$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, NKJem <nk...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Immortal? Whaddayamean? I thought they just had extra-long primes, or
>>something. *Unless . . .* (thoughtful look) . . . did they use the
>>Dragonballs to wish for immortality? (They might as well; they never stay
>>dead anyway. ;) )
> As I recall, the dialogue went something like:
> Goku: "Bulma-san, you look old!"
> Bulma: (very annoyed) "That's because we HUMANS age, UNLIKE you
>stupid Saiyans!"
> This indicates to me that Saiyajin are either immortal or
>effectively so -- so long-lived that human lifespans don't mean much to
>them. Of course, most Saiyajin get KILLED before their lifespan becomes
>relevant...
Ahh, it is truly dangerous to quote a part and not the whole... You have to
quote Vegeta's reply to Bulma's statement, too!!
"We Saiyajin are a warrior race, and to be better fighters, we stay in our
primes much longer."
There. Proof positive that Saiyajin are not immortal, only stay in their
primes longer, so it only looks like they haven't aged.
Ian Kelley
(Depressed) wrote:
> I noticed a lot of people putting Cell and Buu in their lists. I thought,
> if using the term Z fighters, enemies wouldn't count......
>
Cell, yeah, I guess he wouldn't count. But since (Fat) Buu becomes a good
guy and saves all their butts at the end of the manga while Goku tries to
power up, I think that he could be considered a Z fighter.
--Ian
--
Ian Kelley
> >> Goku: "Bulma-san, you look old!"
> Bulma: (very annoyed) "That's because we HUMANS age, UNLIKE you
> stupid Saiyans!"
>
> This indicates to me that Saiyajin are either immortal or
> effectively so -- so long-lived that human lifespans don't mean much to
> them. Of course, most Saiyajin get KILLED before their lifespan becomes
> relevant...<<
>
> I don't know if it means that they're immortal/effectively immortal.
> There's a big difference between being long-lived and *immortal*.
> Considering that we have seen *some* aging occur among the Saiyajin
> (although I usually ignore the OAV's)--- I notice that Paragas [Brolly's
> pop] aged quite a bit over his son's lifetime; in a flashback he looks a
> good 10-15 years younger than he does throughout the rest of the movie.
> I'd say he's hit the Saiyan equivalent of middle age. Vejiita's father
> may have also---maybe that's why he had a beard and moustache, and his
> hair (although that could just be artistic variances) seemed more
> bluish/greyish than Vejiita's. The fact that they *can* age, and that the
> rates seem to vary (at age 12, Gokuu looks 6. Then at age 40-something,
> he looks 20) lends some credence to the idea that Saiyajin just linger
> longer in the peak of their physical development. They take longer to get
> there and stay there longer, and probably age slower once they're past it,
> but they're not remotely immortal. At most, I'd guess, they probably live
> twice as long as humans. Maybe 150 years or so on average. Again, you're
> right---most of them get killed long before they reach that point.
>
> NKJem
I don't really buy anything from those movies; Toriyama didn't make 'em,
you know. :) You're right about remaining longer in their peak; Vegita
makes a comment after Bulma gets mad at Goku: "We Saiyajins are a fighting
race, so our youth is long." I.E. they get old, they can't fight. Also
keep in mind that Goku is going to be 8 years younger than he is, even in
Saiyajin years; he mentions that you don't age when you die, so that means
that Goku never aged the eight years total he spent dead during the
series.
--Ian
--
Gautama Buddha
>(thoughtful look) . . . did they use the Dragonballs to wish for
>immortality? (They might as well; they never stay dead anyway. ;) )
I suspect it'd be beyond even Porunga's ability to grant immortality for an
/entire race/. ^_-
I don't think the Saiyajin are naturally immortal, despite their apparent
physical longevity. Consider: if they were, Vejita wouldn't have been so
interested in grabbing the Namek balls, would he?
(I know what you're thinking. DON'T SAY IT. DON'T!)
--
| DBZLF/DRA: Dragonball Z Liberation Front/Dubbing Resistance Army /-/\-\
| Dragonball Hunter Rockear | suk...@netcom.com | Trunks@AnimeMUCK /-/--\-\
| Reality plays no significant role in this mess. /-/----\-\
-`- -'-
Katrina Spencer
Gautama Buddha (suk...@netcom.com) writes:
> In article <4e5971$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, NKJem <nk...@aol.com> wrote:
>>(thoughtful look) . . . did they use the Dragonballs to wish for
>>immortality? (They might as well; they never stay dead anyway. ;) )
> I suspect it'd be beyond even Porunga's ability to grant immortality for an
> /entire race/. ^_-
But considering that there are technically only two of them left...why
not? Count the kids, you've got five more (if Pan even counts, we don't
know that she even had a tail). I think ol' Polunga could pull it off =P
> I don't think the Saiyajin are naturally immortal, despite their apparent
> physical longevity. Consider: if they were, Vejita wouldn't have been so
> interested in grabbing the Namek balls, would he?
> (I know what you're thinking. DON'T SAY IT. DON'T!)
I know you meant it for me. I won't =) But even if -- you know -- would
*you* want to be the one to grab Namek balls???
This is what you get when you post these naughty things while I'm under
the influence of medication *koff koff* [pathetic plea for sympathy]
Katchan
mwahahahaha! i didn't have to say it!
Gautama Buddha
Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Gautama Buddha (suk...@netcom.com) writes:
>> I suspect it'd be beyond even Porunga's ability to grant immortality for
>> an /entire race/. ^_-
>But considering that there are technically only two of them left...why
>not? Count the kids, you've got five more (if Pan even counts, we don't
>know that she even had a tail). I think ol' Polunga could pull it off =P
Welllllllllll, yeah, I guess that wouldn't be TOO hard. But on a larger
population, think of the hell there'd be to pay when Enma-daiou-sama finds
out about it :) Even Kamisama was afraid of *him* ...
>This is what you get when you post these naughty things while I'm under
>the influence of medication *koff koff* [pathetic plea for sympathy]
So THAT'S the reason why the next chapter isn't out yet? NO SYMPATHY!
NONE! BACK TO THE SALT MINES YOU GO! ^_^
Nick
>
>Katrina (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
>
>>>Granted, he [Future Trunks] was incredibly cool (everyone -- 1-2-3-
>DROOL =P~~~). The
>reason the present-timeline Trunks is such a brat is because he grew up
>with Vejiita =) Not that there's anything wrong with that -- he just
>first. [oh, come on, a guy with a bolero jacket? if that's not
>effeminate...]<<
>
>That doesn't mean he's effeminate. It just means he has a better sense
of
>style than anyone else in DBZ. =P
>
Seriously though, how many straight men that you know have any sense of
fashion :>
Depressed
>But considering that there are technically only two of them left...why
>not? Count the kids, you've got five more (if Pan even counts, we don't
>know that she even had a tail). I think ol' Polunga could pull it off =P
You can't count Trunks, either, if you use that as a guideline. He was
born without a tail, remember!
Matthew Sommer
well, if you wanna get technical, Cell *IS* made up of "cells" from most
of the most powerful Z fighters of that time period... oh well, it's all
so subjective... i mean, for each super powerful villain, they seem to be
of the same level of "un-beatable-ness"... i guess by this point in the
series cell would be creamed in seconds flat... kind of like how Trunks
took out freeza with a few simple sword strokes!! think of all the hard
work goku had to go through to beat him ;)
enough rambling... prepare ye now mere mortals, for the unveiling of my
new super-delux sig file!!
(i know it's too long, but i got bored this afternoon, ok? ^_^;)
+)===============================================================)+
_ _ _ _______ _____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
| |\\\\ |_______||____ ~\\\\_ | | ___| |__\\\\ | | | |
| | ~ ~ _______ | .~ \ \ | ||___ ___| ~ | | | |
| | |_____ | | | \ \ | | _ | | _ ____ | | | |
| `. ' ' | | ~~ ' ' | || || | |____| | | | | __
| |`.`. / / | | / / / / | | \ \ | | | | / .'
| | `-' .'.' ____| | .'.' / / | | \ \ .'.' | |' /
|_| .'.' |______| .'.' ~~ |_| ~~ / / |__.'
~ ~ ~~
+-================++=============================================)+
Matthew R. Sommer || )Member: Dragon Ball Z Liberation Front
ma...@execpc.com || )disciple of the works of Toriyama Akira,
"Kuririn" on IRC || Katsura Masakazu, and Miyazaki Hayao
+-================++=============================================)+
"Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity" )) Dr. Niles Crane
+-===============================================================)+
ok, so it has some bugs in it still... :)
ja
-matt-
--
Gautama Buddha
Depressed <depr...@aol.com> wrote:
>You can't count Trunks, either, if you use that as a guideline. He was
>born without a tail, remember!
Sorry friend, not true. Vejita cut Trunks's tail off as a preventive
measure very very early -- it just wasn't shown. Didn't want a giant
uncontrollable weremonkey stomping around, tearing up the landscape :)
Matthew Sommer
>Gautama Buddha (suk...@netcom.com) writes:
>> In article <4e5971$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, NKJem <nk...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>(thoughtful look) . . . did they use the Dragonballs to wish for
>>>immortality? (They might as well; they never stay dead anyway. ;) )
>> I suspect it'd be beyond even Porunga's ability to grant immortality for an
>> /entire race/. ^_-
>But considering that there are technically only two of them left...why
>not? Count the kids, you've got five more (if Pan even counts, we don't
>know that she even had a tail). I think ol' Polunga could pull it off =P
well, yeah... i'm sure he could... he's pretty buff for a dragon, you
know... :P sheesh katchan-- you and your constand mixing up of "r" and
"l" ;) anyway, i've always found it interesting that the nameksejin
could create something infinitely MORE powerful that they are..
>> I don't think the Saiyajin are naturally immortal, despite their apparent
>> physical longevity. Consider: if they were, Vejita wouldn't have been so
>> interested in grabbing the Namek balls, would he?
>> (I know what you're thinking. DON'T SAY IT. DON'T!)
>I know you meant it for me. I won't =) But even if -- you know -- would
>*you* want to be the one to grab Namek balls???
neeee, i thought it was clearly stated that nameks didnt have any ^_-;
well, they dont except in very lemony doujinshi anyway...
i'm proud of you for restraining yourself there katrina :)
but getting serius for a minute, i dont think goku would ever wish
himself to be immortal... that would take away the risk, and be seen as
an unfair advantage to him the next time he fought someone? he lives to
fight, and make himself stronger through hard work... he wants to prove
himself the best, and if he couldnt die, i don't think he would think it
was a fair fight... notice how he gave senzu to cell, etc, so that it
WOULD be a fair fight?
what i'd like to see is kuririn, yamcha, and tenshinhan sneaking off,
gathering the dragon balls, and wishing themselves to be able to BEAT
someone for a change ^_-
KURIRIN: "please dragon-sama, don't let us die AGAIN next time..."
ah, the sad life of the DB second stringers...
>This is what you get when you post these naughty things while I'm under
>the influence of medication *koff koff* [pathetic plea for sympathy]
[pathetic attempt at sympathy tendered]
get better you!!
ja ne
-matto-
uhhhhh... buddha-san? about that virgin sacrifice...?
--
Katrina Spencer
Gautama Buddha (suk...@netcom.com) writes:
> Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>This is what you get when you post these naughty things while I'm under
>>the influence of medication *koff koff* [pathetic plea for sympathy]
> NONE! BACK TO THE SALT MINES YOU GO! ^_^
*sob* it's true! Actually, chapters 10 & 11 are done; I'm working with my
respected pre-readers to mmake part 10 perfect for you before I post it
but one of them is sick as well =) I haven't been slacking, honto desu yo!
Katchan
*sniffle* nobody loves me i might as well just die right now penniless and
homeless ...
Alexander Chen
>Gautama Buddha wrote:
>>I suspect it'd be beyond even Porunga's ability to grant immortality for an
>>/entire race/. ^_-
>
>wished for eternal life, does that cancell the effects of the wish?
I wouldn't have thought so. It seems that once a wish is granted, it stays.
People that are resurrected don't become dead again. And besides, being
immortal for the rest of a Namekian's natural lifespan is hardly eternal!
>>I don't think the Saiyajin are naturally immortal, despite their apparent
>>physical longevity. Consider: if they were, Vejita wouldn't have been so
>>interested in grabbing the Namek balls, would he?
>
>Too true..
>
>>(I know what you're thinking. DON'T SAY IT. DON'T!)
>
>Well, you should have brought it up, should you? >:)
I didn't think Picollo had any! ;-)
Alex Chen.
Katrina Spencer
Gautama Buddha (suk...@netcom.com) writes:
> Depressed <depr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>You can't count Trunks, either, if you use that as a guideline. He was
>>born without a tail, remember!
> Sorry friend, not true. Vejita cut Trunks's tail off as a preventive
> measure very very early -- it just wasn't shown. Didn't want a giant
> uncontrollable weremonkey stomping around, tearing up the landscape :)
Speak for yourself, darling. I would LOVE to see the kids with their
tails =) *katchan hums and imagines lovely boys with tails* Anyway, if
Vejiita had been thinking straight when Trunks had been born he might have
left his tail on and taught him to be coherent in Oozaru form...
Katrina
Ian Kelley
Buddha) wrote:
> In article <4ebf91$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Depressed <depr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >You can't count Trunks, either, if you use that as a guideline. He was
> >born without a tail, remember!
>
> Sorry friend, not true. Vejita cut Trunks's tail off as a preventive
> measure very very early -- it just wasn't shown. Didn't want a giant
> uncontrollable weremonkey stomping around, tearing up the landscape :)
>
You know, now that I think about it...why would he cut off Trunks' tail in
the first place? After all, since Piccolo destroyed the moon, there'd be
no way for him to turn into a big monkey anyway. Hmm....
--Ian
--
Katrina Spencer
My theory is just that he's covering his ass -- just in case Kami (who
hadn't been resorbed into Piccolo yet) decided to restore the moon or
anything suchlike. V-sama wasn't exactly home to be a doting father and
thus train the boy in his oozaru form (which is too bad).
Katchan [mwahahahahaha! the possibilities here...]
Depressed
measure very very early -- it just wasn't shown. Didn't want a giant
uncontrollable weremonkey stomping around, tearing up the landscape :)<<
Ok, that's right, was I thinking of Goten?
Sea Wasp
Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Ian Kelley (ike...@mail.sas.upenn.edu) writes:
>>> Depressed <depr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Sorry friend, not true. Vejita cut Trunks's tail off as a preventive
>>> measure very very early -- it just wasn't shown. Didn't want a giant
>>> uncontrollable weremonkey stomping around, tearing up the landscape :)
>> You know, now that I think about it...why would he cut off Trunks' tail in
>> the first place? After all, since Piccolo destroyed the moon, there'd be
>> no way for him to turn into a big monkey anyway. Hmm....
But Kame-Senin had destroyed the moon about 15 years before.
Someone (Kami-sama or maybe Capsule Corp) had re-created or rebuilt
it in that intervening period. You couldn't be sure that the moon wouldn't
come back. What puzzles me is why Trunks and Goten NEVER regrew
theirs, unlike Goku and Gohan, who used to regrow them under stress
regularly.
>My theory is just that he's covering his ass -- just in case Kami (who
>hadn't been resorbed into Piccolo yet) decided to restore the moon or
>anything suchlike. V-sama wasn't exactly home to be a doting father and
>thus train the boy in his oozaru form (which is too bad).
>Katchan [mwahahahahaha! the possibilities here...]
Two words:
GRAPE APE! GRAPE APE!
Trunks as a huge lavender ape would be too silly for words.
But we do explore these possibilities in one of our later
fanfics; when the DBZ crew ends up in the same universe as the
combined Saint-Trooper group... for certain reasons, the Saiyajin
ALL have their tails back.
Wei-Hwa Huang
> Bulma: (very annoyed) "That's because we HUMANS age, UNLIKE you
>stupid Saiyans!"
> This indicates to me that Saiyajin are either immortal or
>effectively so -- so long-lived that human lifespans don't mean much to
>them. Of course, most Saiyajin get KILLED before their lifespan becomes
>relevant...
It indicates to me that Bulma could have been exaggerating. All it shows
is that Saiyans don't show their age as much as humans do.
While we're on the subject, Vegeta definitely looks older than when he and
Nappa learned about Raditz' death...
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@cco.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reality only works when you use it. -- Instruction booklet, Reality
NKJem
Trunks as a huge lavender ape would be too silly for words.<<
*GACK!!* (Falls to floor, one leg up in air. Bead of sweat rolls down
back of head.) =)
NKJem
Katrina Spencer
Sea Wasp (sea...@wizvax.wizvax.net) writes:
Katchan writes:
>>My theory is just that he's covering his ass -- just in case Kami (who
>>hadn't been resorbed into Piccolo yet) decided to restore the moon or
>>anything suchlike. V-sama wasn't exactly home to be a doting father and
>>thus train the boy in his oozaru form (which is too bad).
>>Katchan [mwahahahahaha! the possibilities here...]
> Two words:
> GRAPE APE! GRAPE APE!
> Trunks as a huge lavender ape would be too silly for words.
One word:
BLASPHEMY! BLASPHEMY! If the Prince heard you talking about his son in
such a manner -- oh, the PAIN! ;P
I will be exploring the possibilities myself in my own fanfic, 'Saiyajin :
A Dragonball Withdrawal Whim' =)
Katchan
Bryon Miller
Gokou
Gohon
Vegita
Begito
Gotenks
the list goes on, no time.