[SPOILER] Macross Plus 4 question

[alj...@gems.vcu.edu]

All righty then. April 16th has come and gone and much to my
amazement, the fourth installment of Macross Plus DID come out. I must say
that, yes I did enjoy it. It was nice to have some sort of closure after what
seems like a year's worth of waiting. Nice characterization, beautiful usage
of computer animation and definetly some of the best music featured in
animation. But of course everyone already knew this. My only concern was
this: I'm a little sketchy on what it was that happened between
Guld/Isamu/Myung those many years ago. After replaying the scene a few times,
it seems like Guld was coming over to visit Myung and became enraged when he
saw her with Isamu. In the heat of a Zentradi-rage, it appears he raped
Myung, but being a traumatic experience, Guld seemed to block this part out
and instead became fixated on the fact that Isamu was in the room with Myung
that day. Isamu and Myung felt some kind of sympathy for Guld, who was at the
mercy of his genes and I guess vowed a)never to mention the event again or
b)keep the truth from Guld. Of course they don't come right out and tell you
this in the story (one of the things I loved about it), and I was wondering if
anyone could tell me if I'm way off base on this one. I need closure.

aj

[Sean M. Sullivan]

alj...@gems.vcu.edu wrote:
: animation. But of course everyone already knew this. My only concern was

: this: I'm a little sketchy on what it was that happened between
: Guld/Isamu/Myung those many years ago. After replaying the scene a few times,
: it seems like Guld was coming over to visit Myung and became enraged when he
: saw her with Isamu. In the heat of a Zentradi-rage, it appears he raped
: Myung, but being a traumatic experience, Guld seemed to block this part out

You aren't off base but...

It didn't seem like rape to me... Guld attacked Myung but stopped. He
lost his temper because she seems to have told Isamu that she loved him.
In all of Guld's earlier memories Isamu is holding an attacked Myung.
Guld had made up the memory that Isamu tried to force himself on Myung
and had caused her to leave... the truth was that Guld had caused her to
leave Eden.

And personally, I loved part four. It was the best so far. For those whom
wanted Isamu and Myung together at the end... wait for the movie. There
some extra footage shown in the Macross Plus Movie Book I recently
purchased. Either way though, I thought the ending was perfect.

Sean sull...@mercury.interpath.com

[yf...@ndu.edu]

> alj...@gems.vcu.edu writes:
>
>
> All righty then. April 16th has come and gone and much to my
> amazement, the fourth installment of Macross Plus DID come out. I must say
> that, yes I did enjoy it. It was nice to have some sort of closure after what
> seems like a year's worth of waiting. Nice characterization, beautiful usage
> of computer animation and definetly some of the best music featured in

> animation. But of course everyone already knew this. My only concern was
> this: I'm a little sketchy on what it was that happened between
> Guld/Isamu/Myung those many years ago. After replaying the scene a few times,
> it seems like Guld was coming over to visit Myung and became enraged when he
> saw her with Isamu. In the heat of a Zentradi-rage, it appears he raped
> Myung, but being a traumatic experience, Guld seemed to block this part out

> and instead became fixated on the fact that Isamu was in the room with Myung
> that day. Isamu and Myung felt some kind of sympathy for Guld, who was at the
> mercy of his genes and I guess vowed a)never to mention the event again or
> b)keep the truth from Guld. Of course they don't come right out and tell you
> this in the story (one of the things I loved about it), and I was wondering if
> anyone could tell me if I'm way off base on this one. I need closure.
>

You're right. Myung, though, was also traumatized as we infer from some of
Sharon's subsequent comments to Myung. In part, this was due to Guld having
proclaimed he would be her eternal protector. So she felt betrayed. But it was
also due in part that her immersion in the virtuoid project robbed her of much of
her will. Her normal feelings were absorbed by the computer and when Sharon
got the emotion chip, it was Sharon who actualized the emotions Myung had
repressed.

When Guld remembers the past, he incorrectly assumes Myung was aware of
what happened. I think that's why you conclude that Isamu and Myung
conspired to keep the truth from Guld. Instead, I think Isamu felt guilt about the
whole affair. Remember, it was not just that he was there and triggered Guld's
jealousy, but just previously he wrecked Guld's creation. He couldn't avoid the
temptation to take it out on a spin, and crashed it.

It's interesting to note, Myung was more awkward around Isamu than she was
around Guld. She even sleeps with Guld after he rescues her from the fire.
Without either of them knowing it because of their blocked memories, this was
the atonement on Guld's part and forgiveness on Myung's part for the past.
Clearly, though, she is still enamored with Isamu, but is hesitant around him, I
think for three reasons. First, she intuited Isamu had become more distant to
her after the incident. He had become distant because of the guilt he felt, but
Myung didn't know this she only perceived that he had become more withdrawn
towards her. Second, she considered herself damaged goods and perhaps (like
many rape victims unfortunately do) blamed herself to some extent. She,
Isamu, and Guld were a threesome. Picking one man over the other destroyed
the balance and invited disaster, especially since the rejected one was a
Zentradi. Myung would also not know that much of Guld's emotional state was
not caused by her but by Isamu's destruction of Guld's machine. Of course, all
of these recriminations were internal since Myung had repressed much if not all
of her recollection. Third, she perceived Isamu's first love to be flying and living
on the edge. We know this for a fact, because it is this perception she
communicated to Sharon.

Remember, their home planet was Eden. Myung, Guld, and Isamu lived an
idyllic innocent existence. Innocence was shattered, and seven (a significant
number in religion and mythology) years later there is a reunion to resolve the
turmoil created by the intrusion of evil in paradise. Isamu, Myung, and Guld
much each face their own demons. Myung becomes whole again, symbolized
by her being able to sing the simple song of innocence. Isamu does so by
choosing the real Myung over Sharon who is committed to satisfying Isamu's
dreams as a reckless pilot. Remember, it was the reckless pilot in Isamu that
wrecked Guld's plane and started the downward cycle. Guld does so by
destroying the ghost ship. His comment when he leaves to do so is very
significant and is inaccurately translated in the sub (I haven't seen the dub of this
episode). He says, "Saki ni itte iru ze" "[Excuse me] for going on ahead.
Isamu had accuse him of always tagging along. At the crucial time it is Guld
who takes the lead. (Language note: 'saki ni' means 'on ahead'. In this
context, there is an implied apology).

Sharon is less a villain than she is a symbol of the discord created between the
three young people. To make amends for the past, each of the three must
renounce her. (Remember, it was Sharon controlling the ghost plane that Guld
attacked.

I will stop rambling. It's interesting to view all the flashback scenes in quick
succession. They all provide clues that are better understood after you see
episode 4. The scenes cover the various significant emotional events that
occurred on Eden seven years ago.

Phil Yff <yf...@ndu.edu>

Watashi wa jiuu na no yo.
Jiuu...

Indeed, I am free!
Free...
--Sharon Apple

[David Christain Wuensche]

Supposedly the movie version clears this up a bit. Ah, well. Yet another long
wait ahead of us.

[Ian Kim]

In article <1996Apr17....@gems.vcu.edu>, alj...@gems.vcu.edu writes:
>
>> animation. But of course everyone already knew this. My only concern was
> this: I'm a little sketchy on what it was that happened between
> Guld/Isamu/Myung those many years ago. After replaying the scene a few times,
> it seems like Guld was coming over to visit Myung and became enraged when he
> saw her with Isamu. In the heat of a Zentradi-rage, it appears he raped
> Myung, but being a traumatic experience, Guld seemed to block this part out
> and instead became fixated on the fact that Isamu was in the room with Myung
> that day.

That's about right. Of course, now that they've proven that the blockage of
horrible memories is impossible, all these stories with that stuff is fake :)

Isamu and Myung felt some kind of sympathy for Guld, who was at the
> mercy of his genes and I guess vowed a)never to mention the event again or
> b)keep the truth from Guld. Of course they don't come right out and tell you
> this in the story (one of the things I loved about it), and I was wondering if
> anyone could tell me if I'm way off base on this one. I need closure.

I don't know. I have a question is return though: When Isamu (in ep. 3) is
in the simulation saying "Shut up! I can almost see it...it's right there in
front.." and then crashes...what the heck was he doing? What was he striving
for, and why did he leave Myung behind to go into space?

--
@@@@@@@@@@@@ IAN KIM - ik...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca @@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@ [1;5m"Exams really suck"[0m @
@ - Yours truely - @
@@@ EMIKO'S GENESIS - http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ikim @@@

[ho clarence]

yf...@ndu.edu wrote:

: Phil Yff <yf...@ndu.edu>

Very eloquently stated, Phil, but I must disagree on several points.

You mistook Isamu's clothing for Myun and/or Guld's and assume the
latter two slept together. After what Guld did, how can anyone possibly
think Myun would put herself in that position? That's insane and
would be completely ludicrous to take the story in that direction.

Sharon (upon receiving dangerously flawed AI) continued to develop
into a sentient creature working with the deepest emotional baggage
inheirited from Myun; things Myun had long repressed and were now
coming to the forefront after her reunion with her high school pals.
Logically (even fuzzy logically) Sharon was rationalizing these
emotions for two men she (herself) had never known but were now
close at hand and very prominent in her newly acquired feelings.
The AI Sharon is lost touch with reality. She believed with all her
heart (?) that to express her 'love' for Isamu she must give him
what he wants most in life: to die pushing the envelope, living his
life to the fullest. She attacks him to fulfil this dream of his.
She's insane! She hasn't thought of what her 'life' will be like
afterwards if she succeeds in expressing her love for him.

It is only when Isamu realizes it's Myun he loves that he can
resist Sharon's influence.

That's a separate point. I hope in the movie that Sharon's ability
to control people is better explained. Ever wonder *why* those two
guards simply locknload when Myun escapes? Harken back to v2 when
Yan was hacking Sharon... Isamu asks him why he likes her music.
Yan says, "She makes me feel... good." It is my opinion that Sharon's
tunes have the ability to control a person's thoughts and actions
and thus she is able to do so much more than simply invade the
Macross intranet, control the Ghost, or interface with Isamu's fighter.
She's been sentient a lot longer than most Macross Plus fans know.

But I digress. My Sharon-brainwash theory has nothing to do with
the fact I found myself doing 110mph on I-95 while listening to
Info High... ;) ;) ;) ;)

Sco

(posted with permission of the account holder)

[Mike Yoshida]

Ian Kim wrote:

> for, and why did he leave Myung behind to go into space?

I think the whole thing with Isamu is that he'd do anything to follow his
dreams. An example is in ep.3 where the giant pterasaur flies over...
He chases after the pterasaur, leaving Myung behind despite Myung's
protest. Thats just like how Isamu wanted to be a UN Spacy pilot and did
so even though he had to leave Myung. It seems Isamu is just an impulsive
kinda guy.

Hope this helps...
Mike

[Charles Hagmaier]

Ian Kim <ik...@legendre.uwaterloo.ca> writes:

>That's about right. Of course, now that they've proven that the blockage of
>horrible memories is impossible, all these stories with that stuff is fake :)

How odious of you to allow actual psychological research interfere with
literary license. Jungian archtype theory has been discredited hoo-ha
since the seventies, but authors are still allowed to dabble in such
things. The reason is... Jungian and NeoFreudian concepts make for
grand and wonderful drama. Just because they don't work in the real
world doesn't mean that they can't work in fiction.

Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Psychoanalytic Artifice

[Gilles Poitras]

In article <4l5qnk$s...@lal.interserv.net>, yf...@ndu.edu wrote:

>It's interesting to note, Myung was more awkward around Isamu than she was
>around Guld. She even sleeps with Guld after he rescues her from the fire.

There is no actual evidence that they slept together, just that they had
gotten closer. Guld could have assumed from Myung's willingness to be held
by him as her accepting him as more than a friend. (now if this was US
made they would have slept together)

Her awkwardness could be from stronger feelings towards Isamu. Such could
easily by a natural response.

>Remember, their home planet was Eden. Myung, Guld, and Isamu lived an
>idyllic innocent existence. Innocence was shattered, and seven (a significant
>number in religion and mythology) years later there is a reunion to resolve the
>turmoil created by the intrusion of evil in paradise.

Don't read too much western symbolism in a Japanese work. Such symbolism
may seem natural to us but may not be the case in Japan which has its own
number symbolisms. Interesting point tho' on the symbolism of Eden which
would be more familiar to many Japanese who have been exposed to the book
of Genesis.

You other points are excellent.

[yf...@ndu.edu]

This is getting to be quite long, so I'll put the most recent comments
first and move the rest of the article to the bottom if anyone's
interested in wading through it.

< ch...@umbc.edu (ho clarence) writes:
< Very eloquently stated, Phil, but I must disagree on several points.

Please do so. There is much I said that was conjecture. I think that
is one of Macross Plus's strong points. They don't hit you over the
head with a two by four but leave a lot open to interpretation.
Where we disagree on interpretation rather than fact, I am quite
willing to admit I don't have a monopoly on hypothesizing. You
may, in fact, have the better analysis.

< You mistook Isamu's clothing for Myun and/or Guld's and assume the
< latter two slept together.

I'm actually not that non-observant. I remember the switch to
Isamu's room. Being the type he is, it's not surprising he had strewn
his clothes across the room. If, in fact, Myung and Guld did sleep
together, I would imagine they would have proceeded slowly and
cautiously. This was not a moment of extreme passion, but a tender
reunion after an arduous ordeal.

I based my conclusion on Guld's reactions the following morning,
the fact that the opportunity had been there, and that there was the
suggestion of intimacy in the scene in Myung's room.

< After what Guld did, how can anyone possibly
< think Myun would put herself in that position? That's insane and
< would be completely ludicrous to take the story in that direction.

This is not a story about sanity. Guld and Isamu inflicting wanton
destruction while playing tag is evidence of that. Remember, part of
my argument was Myung had blocked her memories of the rape,
assuming that the rape did take place, because there is an element of
conjecture in that as well.

I got an E-mail on this subject as well where the author told me
there was no proof Myung and Guld had slept together. He is
correct. It is not a fact, but conjecture on my part based on some
intimations in the series. He states that sleeping together under the
circumstances of the occassion would be more the American
response than the Japanese.

It's true American and Japanese view sex differently. Sex, love, and
marriage are not as closely associated in Japan as they are in our
culture. So, it is quite possible an intimate occassion would be less
likely to lead to sex with Japanese than with Americans. On the
other hand, Japanese often approach sex more casually, so it could
be argued that sex might be more likely under the circumstances. If
Tanakasan from soc.culture.japan gets ahold of this, he'll flame me
royally for casting aspersions on the Japanese culture. It is not my
intent to denigrate Japanese culture, but to dicuss differences without
making any value judgements.

So far, nobody's agreed with me on the issue of Myung and Guld
sleeping together, and I may very well be wrong. My critics do
seem to agree with me that this is a moment of atonement, even if
neither Myung nor Guld remembers the incident that precipitated the
need for atonement.

I still think there is the suggestion they may have slept together. To
me, it makes sense from a unity of theme perspective. Myung's rape
was so traumatic to Guld that he repressed the memory. It would be
nice to give him the opportunity to express his true emotions to
Myung without the interference of the Zentradi rage.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the movie. I wonder how this whole
issue is handled there? If anyone knows...

< Sharon (upon receiving dangerously flawed AI) continued to develop
< into a sentient creature working with the deepest emotional baggage
< inheirited from Myun; things Myun had long repressed and were now
< coming to the forefront after her reunion with her high school pals.
< Logically (even fuzzy logically) Sharon was rationalizing these
< emotions for two men she (herself) had never known but were now
< close at hand and very prominent in her newly acquired feelings.
< The AI Sharon is lost touch with reality. She believed with all her
< heart (?) that to express her 'love' for Isamu she must give him
< what he wants most in life: to die pushing the envelope, living his
< life to the fullest. She attacks him to fulfil this dream of his.
< She's insane! She hasn't thought of what her 'life' will be like
< afterwards if she succeeds in expressing her love for him.

Agree. Sharon is a creature of emotion, not rational thought. It
could be argued also that her emotions are very immature. After all,
she had only recently been given the emotion chip and may not have
been able to assimilate everything and put them in the right
perspective. Actually, we don't really understand what her final
objectives were since she was never allowed to accomplish them.
Your explanation is quite plausible.

< It is only when Isamu realizes it's Myun he loves that he can
< resist Sharon's influence.

Strongly agree.

< That's a separate point. I hope in the movie that Sharon's ability
< to control people is better explained. Ever wonder *why* those two
< guards simply locknload when Myun escapes? Harken back to v2 when
< Yan was hacking Sharon... Isamu asks him why he likes her music.
< Yan says, "She makes me feel... good." It is my opinion that Sharon's
< tunes have the ability to control a person's thoughts and actions
< and thus she is able to do so much more than simply invade the
< Macross intranet, control the Ghost, or interface with Isamu's fighter.

Strongly agree. If Sharon can force Yang to try to kill Isamu, she
should have no trouble with a couple of guards.

< She's been sentient a lot longer than most Macross Plus fans know.

Agree on this point, though I'm sure a lot of viewers would disagree.
I think Sharon played a part in seeking Isamu out in episode 2.
Some would argue it was all Myung's doing and Sharon was passive.
I think Sharon was sentient, she was just underdeveloped
emotionally. She needed the special chip. I think Marje realized
this also. That's why he went to such great lengths to get the chip.

< But I digress. My Sharon-brainwash theory has nothing to do with
< the fact I found myself doing 110mph on I-95 while listening to
< Info High... ;) ;) ;) ;)
<
< Sco
<
< (posted with permission of the account holder)

Phil Yff <yf...@ndu.edu>

Mada aru n' ja nai no ka?
What about the other stuff?
--Guld Goa Bowman

________________________________________________________

This is the original post and my comments on it:

< : < alj...@gems.vcu.edu writes:

< : < All righty then. April 16th has come and gone and much to my
< : < amazement, the fourth installment of Macross Plus DID come out. I must say
< : < that, yes I did enjoy it. It was nice to have some sort of closure after what
< : < seems like a year's worth of waiting. Nice characterization, beautiful usage
< : < of computer animation and definetly some of the best music featured in
< : < animation. But of course everyone already knew this. My only concern was
< : < this: I'm a little sketchy on what it was that happened between
< : < Guld/Isamu/Myung those many years ago. After replaying the scene a few times,
< : < it seems like Guld was coming over to visit Myung and became enraged when he
< : < saw her with Isamu. In the heat of a Zentradi-rage, it appears he raped
< : < Myung, but being a traumatic experience, Guld seemed to block this part out
< : < and instead became fixated on the fact that Isamu was in the room with Myung
< : < that day. Isamu and Myung felt some kind of sympathy for Guld, who was at the
< : < mercy of his genes and I guess vowed a)never to mention the event again or
< : < b)keep the truth from Guld. Of course they don't come right out and tell you
< : < this in the story (one of the things I loved about it), and I was wondering if
< : < anyone could tell me if I'm way off base on this one. I need closure.

[Ben Kosse]

(Post directed to r.a.a.misc to help the transition, everyone please start
using r.a.a.misc instead of this newsgroup).

[snip]

>Remember, their home planet was Eden. Myung, Guld, and Isamu lived an
>idyllic innocent existence. Innocence was shattered, and seven (a significant
>number in religion and mythology) years later there is a reunion to resolve the
>turmoil created by the intrusion of evil in paradise. Isamu, Myung, and Guld
>much each face their own demons. Myung becomes whole again, symbolized
>by her being able to sing the simple song of innocence. Isamu does so by
>choosing the real Myung over Sharon who is committed to satisfying Isamu's
>dreams as a reckless pilot. Remember, it was the reckless pilot in Isamu that
>wrecked Guld's plane and started the downward cycle. Guld does so by
>destroying the ghost ship. His comment when he leaves to do so is very
>significant and is inaccurately translated in the sub (I haven't seen the dub
>of this episode). He says, "Saki ni itte iru ze" "[Excuse me] for going on
>ahead. Isamu had accuse him of always tagging along. At the crucial time it is
>Guld who takes the lead. (Language note: 'saki ni' means 'on ahead'. In
>this context, there is an implied apology).

How did it get improperly translated? I haven't seen the commercial sub,
only a fansub, so I'm a little curious.
Now, to the important stuff. I was more inclined to believe that it was
Guld who started the downward spiral, and much before the Myung/Guld incident.
Guld was always stubborn, and physical (it kinda goes with the race), and
refuses to talk anything through. While Isamu is partly to blame (for wrecking
Guld's machine), when Guld's machine is wrecked, Guld starts blaming Isamu
without forgiveness. He continues doing so until the Guld/Myung incident, where
he then blames his mistakes on Isamu as well. Isamu becomes Guld's scapegoat and
excuse: Isamu always destroys what Guld tries to accomplish. Or that's how Guld
views it.
Isamu, and, to a lesser extent, Myung (only because she doesn't have as
much contact with Guld), are trying to protect Guld from insanity. At least
that's my impression. Guld has repressed his memory of hurting Myung, and
shifted blame onto Isamu. That is why he is to be "Myung's protector". Only he
can protect her from Isamu, who he believes was the one to rape Myung. The
exchange between Isamu and Guld after Guld realizes what happened 7 years ago is
a key point in the relationship of the two. Guld had always been on the scene to
help Myung before Isamu arrived. He kept trying to say that Isamu wasn't trying
to help Myung, but, in reality, Isamu was at least as intense in his desires,
but was always beat to the punch by Guld. Guld finally realizes that Isamu loves
Myung, and also knows that only Isamu can win the fight through Macross'
defenses. Guld may be good, but remember that Isamu was able to take the
old-series veritech through the missles that Guld passed through in testing.
However, the YF-21, with Guld's revenge behind it, was the only machine which
could out maneuver the Ghost ship.
And then we have Myung. She gives up singing because she believes her
singing, her emotions (Mac: DYRL and Mac+ make a strong connection between song
and emotions) were the cause of the break-up of Guld and Isamu's friendship. She
can't stand living like that (as the one with the power to break up such good
friends), and stops singing, sort of as a repentence. But, she knows that she
can't stop her emotions and as such, gives them an outlet through Sharon. Isamu
picked up on this in ep. #1 when he's driving along with the girl from his team.
He notices how familiar the music sounds. Why? Because the feeling behind the
music, the emotion behind it, is all Myung, and he knows that feeling.

>Sharon is less a villain than she is a symbol of the discord created between
>the three young people. To make amends for the past, each of the three must
>renounce her. (Remember, it was Sharon controlling the ghost plane that Guld
>attacked.

Well, that one I'm not too sure about. Sharon was built using the same AI
chip that the plane had. The plane was the original version, and it was the
self-preservation instinct that the plane had which caused Sharon to try to win
Isamu. She was, emotionally, Myung, and her feelings were for Isamu.

>I will stop rambling. It's interesting to view all the flashback scenes in
>quick succession. They all provide clues that are better understood after you
>see episode 4. The scenes cover the various significant emotional events that
>occurred on Eden seven years ago.

That is quite true.
Enough of my rambling as well. I get to see Mac+ tonight (all 4 eps), so I
should be able to better answer questions tomorrow.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Kosse bmk...@cs.rit.edu
Homepage for programming and anime. (http://www.rit.edu/~bmk7411)
Biggest BGC otaku on the RIT campus (especially Priss).
Anime, RPG's, computers, poetry (read/write), music (listen/compose).
Author of the Bubblegum Crisis theme pack

[Paul K Soo]

Uz,

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well, the world is a horrible place, but sometimes,
you can't help but laugh at your defiance.."

[Andrew John Brewer]

Paul K Soo (so...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Uz,

: "Sex and Drug Twenty double X..."

: Well, that's the opening for the new Music Video that I will be
: putting up on Psycho Shonen Zetsuai Page, no later than Midnight Friday.

: The New music video is called 20XX ZETSU-AI.

: please come and check it out if you have time, and if you like the pgae,
: please drop a line, good or bad or any way I can make the page better!

This is one of the best anime sites out there, bar none. Go check it out!

-- AjB

(In No Way Affiliated With Psycho Shonen Zetsuai)

[PsychoKick]

In article <4l88r5$k...@lal.interserv.net>, yf...@ndu.edu wrote:

>This is not a story about sanity. Guld and Isamu inflicting wanton
>destruction while playing tag is evidence of that. Remember, part of
>my argument was Myung had blocked her memories of the rape,
>assuming that the rape did take place, because there is an element of
>conjecture in that as well.

I don't think Guld raped her. In his "complete" flashback in the last
episode, he was about to, but then he saw himself in the mirror and realized
what the hell he was doing and stopped out of horror at his actions.

>I got an E-mail on this subject as well where the author told me
>there was no proof Myung and Guld had slept together. He is
>correct. It is not a fact, but conjecture on my part based on some
>intimations in the series. He states that sleeping together under the
>circumstances of the occassion would be more the American
>response than the Japanese.

True, there is no proof, but the imagery used (the keys) is pretty darn
strong and provocative. @_@ Just a thought from an American...

-PsychoKick

http://crescent.resnet.cornell.edu
School of Hard Nox and other chaos...

[Innpchan]

In article <4l88r5$k...@lal.interserv.net>, yf...@ndu.edu writes:

>So far, nobody's agreed with me on the issue of Myung and Guld
>sleeping together, and I may very well be wrong. My critics do
>seem to agree with me that this is a moment of atonement, even if
>neither Myung nor Guld remembers the incident that precipitated the
>need for atonement.
>
>

Consider this a 100% agreement. Besides-

Good lord folks, if Myung's reaction to Guld's declaration in the space
port wasn't a classic "Ohmigod I slept with him and now he won't leave me
alone" I don't know what is. (And having been on Guld's end of it... I
do.)

the pig

[dma...@forest.drew.edu]

In article <cowpunk-1904...@ppp011-sf1.sirius.com>, cow...@sirius.com (Gilles Poitras) writes:
> In article <4l5qnk$s...@lal.interserv.net>, yf...@ndu.edu wrote:
>

>>It's interesting to note, Myung was more awkward around Isamu than she was
>>around Guld. She even sleeps with Guld after he rescues her from the fire.
>

> There is no actual evidence that they slept together, just that they had
> gotten closer. Guld could have assumed from Myung's willingness to be held
> by him as her accepting him as more than a friend. (now if this was US
> made they would have slept together)

Are you sure? I was under the impression that they HAD slept
together from the line Guld gave to Isamu in the cafateria after the
incident. I can't remember the exact quote of it, but it was something to
the effect of Guld telling Isamu they no longer had to fight over Myung AND
the project....just the project, now. To me that sounds like they did
more than just hold one another.
Also the visual tie-in (when you see clothes scattered on the floor
and you THINK they're Guld's and Muyng's but they're really Isamu's) leads
me to believe they spent the night together. Though it's a pretty damn
clever way of making you think you're going to see Guld and Muyng in bed,
but instead see Isamu, the sheer fact that it was THERE seems to me to be
the scriptwriters saying, "We're not going to SHOW you Guld and Myung in
bed -- but we're gonna hint they're there merely by association."

Of course, they could've done that on purpose so it would spark
debates just like this. (those crafty bastards.....) :)

---Dmambu

[lc...@cornell.edu]

In article <4l94hm$o...@amy10.Stanford.EDU>, ajbr...@leland.Stanford.EDU
(Andrew John Brewer) wrote:

> Paul K Soo (so...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
> : Uz,
>
> : "Sex and Drug Twenty double X..."
>
> : Well, that's the opening for the new Music Video that I will be
> : putting up on Psycho Shonen Zetsuai Page, no later than Midnight
Friday.
>
> : The New music video is called 20XX ZETSU-AI.
>
> : please come and check it out if you have time, and if you like the
pgae,
> : please drop a line, good or bad or any way I can make the page
better!
>
> This is one of the best anime sites out there, bar none. Go check it
out!

Debateable, in my opinion, but in any case, it has nothing to do with
buying or selling, so why do they keep posting to the marketplace?

--
Chris Hindall
lc...@cornell.edu

[Matsuura-kun]

dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>In article <cowpunk-1904...@ppp011-sf1.sirius.com>, cow...@sirius.com (Gilles Poitras) writes:
>> In article <4l5qnk$s...@lal.interserv.net>, yf...@ndu.edu wrote:
>>

>>>She even sleeps with Guld after he rescues her from the fire.
>>

>> There is no actual evidence that they slept together
>

> Are you sure? I was under the impression that they HAD slept
>together from the line Guld gave to Isamu in the cafateria after the
>incident.

I wouldn't say that there was NO evidence that they slept together.
There isn't a scene where both were in bed. In fact, I thought it was
incredibly inappropriate for Gald to sleep with Myun while she was
crying... not the right mood... but I think the hints for sleeping
together was everywhere.

Like you said, Gald's little smile at the cafeteria when Isamu joked
about the 21st finger... Then the affectionate hand holding with the
dimmed light and minimum clothing on both... Gald was going to leave
grabbing for his car keys but she stopped him... and then the scene right
after, with clothes lying everywhere, though they were Isamu's seemed to
hint that it was the case for Gald and Myun as well...

IMO, I thought they slept together...
And I will believe it that way... makes more sense to me that way =)

=========================================================================
Lawrence Wan |Brown Japanese Culture Association Anime Coordinator
PO Box 3054 |
Brown University | A Dedicated Member Of The
Providence, RI 02912| *** Arimi Fan Club ***
tel. (401) 863-6884 | ****************
=========================================================================

[David Christain Wuensche]

If you ask me, this entire film seems a little more "American". Remember, the
original singer recorded the English version of "Voices". It seems to me that
someone had us in mind when they created it.

[Gilles Poitras]

In article <1996Apr20.194913.140579@forest>, dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:

>In article <cowpunk-1904...@ppp011-sf1.sirius.com>,
cow...@sirius.com (Gilles Poitras) writes:

>> There is no actual evidence that they slept together, just that they had
>> gotten closer. Guld could have assumed from Myung's willingness to be held
>> by him as her accepting him as more than a friend. (now if this was US
>> made they would have slept together)
>

> Are you sure? I was under the impression that they HAD slept
>together from the line Guld gave to Isamu in the cafateria after the

>incident. I can't remember the exact quote of it, but it was something to
>the effect of Guld telling Isamu they no longer had to fight over Myung AND
>the project....just the project, now. To me that sounds like they did
>more than just hold one another.

In Japan hold each other is considered very intimate.
However I did not check the clothes Guld was wearing in the cafeteria, but
he could have changed them.

One of the good things about the way Macross Plus is done is that you
don't always know. Kinda like life.

> Also the visual tie-in (when you see clothes scattered on the floor
>and you THINK they're Guld's and Muyng's but they're really Isamu's) leads
>me to believe they spent the night together.

Or just a paly on film convention to get a laugh from the viewers after a
tense moment.

> Of course, they could've done that on purpose so it would spark
>debates just like this. (those crafty bastards.....) :)

More than likely ;^)

[Gilles Poitras]

In article <4lfr7f$b...@larry.rice.edu>, David Christain Wuensche <ottavio>
wrote:

>If you ask me, this entire film seems a little more "American". Remember, the
>original singer recorded the English version of "Voices". It seems to me that
>someone had us in mind when they created it.

Could be. But I could see this as being only done for Japanese audiences.
Remember English songs are not unknown there.

Thene there are all of the visual reeferences to California in the first
tape, down to a local garbage companies truck going by on the street.

Perhaps time to start a Spot the California references thread?

[Joe Gerardi]

David Christain Wuensche wrote:
>
> If you ask me, this entire film seems a little more "American". Remember, the
> original singer recorded the English version of "Voices". It seems to me that

> someone had us in mind when they created it.If you check the credits at the end of the tape, you'll see Manga
Entertainment is mentioned. I saw this on an original Japanese Mac +
tape and it blew my mind. I think that they actually helped finance the
project...

[Brian Fujino]

On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Gilles Poitras wrote:

> In article <4lfr7f$b...@larry.rice.edu>, David Christain Wuensche <ottavio>

> wrote:
>
> >If you ask me, this entire film seems a little more "American". Remember, the
> >original singer recorded the English version of "Voices". It seems to me that
> >someone had us in mind when they created it.

Yes, Shoji Kawamori had American audiences specifically in mind when he
made Macross Plus. He even came to America to do research. He got to fly
in fighters at Edwards Air Force Base(hence the name New Edwards for the
base). One of the reasons Macross is alive today is because of the
American audience. Most of the people exposed to Robotech enjoyed the
Macross saga. This grew into a separate liking for Macross.

>
> Could be. But I could see this as being only done for Japanese audiences.
> Remember English songs are not unknown there.
>
> Thene there are all of the visual reeferences to California in the first
> tape, down to a local garbage companies truck going by on the street.

Brian Fujino
bafu...@uci.edu
"Ore no uta wo kike!" Nekki Basara, Macross 7

[yf...@ndu.edu]

> cow...@sirius.com (Gilles Poitras) writes:
> In article <4lfr7f$b...@larry.rice.edu>, David Christain Wuensche <ottavio>
> wrote:
>
> >If you ask me, this entire film seems a little more "American". Remember, the
> >original singer recorded the English version of "Voices". It seems to me that
> >someone had us in mind when they created it.
>

> Could be. But I could see this as being only done for Japanese audiences.
> Remember English songs are not unknown there.

Good point. All songs in AD Police are in English. Quite a few anime
have English songs in them. Macross Plus also has a French song and
Santi U. I think the different languages are to point out the universal
appeal of the virtuoid, Sharon Apple.

Phil Yff <yf...@ndu.edu>

Watashi wa jiuu na no yo.... jiuu
Indeed I am free.... free
--Sharon Apple

[Mousse]

yf...@ndu.edu wrote:
: have English songs in them. Macross Plus also has a French song and

: Santi U. I think the different languages are to point out the universal
: appeal of the virtuoid, Sharon Apple.

This pointless to the thread, but does anyone else think Sharon seem too
much like HAL in 2001: A Space Odysse?

--Mousse who calls his PowerMac "Sharon Apple" and pronounces SCSI as 'sexy'
"Sakaki-san's First Rule: 'No matter how good it sounds, never bet on a
first release'" --Shige *Patlabor 1*

[Ryo-oh-ki]

Mousse <vhv6...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:

:yf...@ndu.edu wrote:
:: have English songs in them. Macross Plus also has a French song and
:: Santi U. I think the different languages are to point out the universal
:: appeal of the virtuoid, Sharon Apple.
:
:This pointless to the thread, but does anyone else think Sharon seem too
:much like HAL in 2001: A Space Odysse?

HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^

___/^_^\___ Eugene Lee Ryo-oh-ki Muyo! Tenchi
zan...@netcom.com The Memory of Trees

[Peter Evans]

Dragonmaster Lou wrote:

>
> zan...@netcom.com (Ryo-oh-ki) wrote:
>
> > HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^
>

> Isn't as attractive either, hehe.
> Sharon Apple has better earrings too.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
o Peter Evans \o/
/|\ ev...@NETural.com |
/ \ http://home.netural.com/~evans/anime.html / \
Shut up! All you care about is being
happy with Aya!
----------------------------------------------------------

[Dragonmaster Lou]

zan...@netcom.com (Ryo-oh-ki) wrote:

> HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^

Isn't as attractive either, hehe.

---

+------------ http://techhouse.brown.edu/~tech/lou/index.html ---------+
|Dragon...@brown.edu|"Searching for a distant star, heading off to |
|"Dragonmaster Lou" |Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows|
|Technology House |what dangers we'll find..." |
+-------------------ftp://yamato.techhouse.brown.edu-------------------+

Save Our Sailors: Please help keep "Sailor Moon" on the air in the US by
signing the SOS petition at http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~daffy/sos/

[Matsuura-kun]

Dragon...@brown.edu (Dragonmaster Lou) wrote:
>zan...@netcom.com (Ryo-oh-ki) wrote:
>
>> HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^
>
>Isn't as attractive either, hehe.

Ahh... but which version of Sharon...

[dma...@forest.drew.edu]

In article <4lmj0j$q...@masala.cc.uh.edu>, vhv6...@Bayou.UH.EDU (Mousse) writes:

> yf...@ndu.edu wrote:
> This pointless to the thread, but does anyone else think Sharon seem too
> much like HAL in 2001: A Space Odysse?

Actally, yes. I'm glad someone else noticed that, too.

"Open the pod bay doors, please, Sharon"
"I'm sorry, Myung, I can't do that"

---dmambu

[David Christain Wuensche]

Supposedly one of the designers or writers of the series is a fan of 2001.
Ever notice Guld's last name? Bowman.

[PsychoKick]

In article <4m5v3h$e...@larry.rice.edu>,

David Christain Wuensche <ottavio> wrote:

>Supposedly one of the designers or writers of the series is a fan of 2001.
>Ever notice Guld's last name? Bowman.
>

There's a fair amount of sci-fi/science references in Mac+:

Isamu Dyson = the Dyson sphere
Yan Neumann = Neumann was some great physicist (I don't recall why)
Guld Bowman = David Bowman from 2001 (as previous poster indicated)

I'm sure there are some more, these are just off the top of my head.

[Dragonmaster Lou]

Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:

>Dragon...@brown.edu (Dragonmaster Lou) wrote:
>>zan...@netcom.com (Ryo-oh-ki) wrote:
>>
>>> HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^
>>
>>Isn't as attractive either, hehe.
>
> Ahh... but which version of Sharon...

The holographic version. :)

[Innpchan]

In article <4m5v3h$e...@larry.rice.edu>, David Christain Wuensche <ottavio>

writes:

>Supposedly one of the designers or writers of the series is a fan of
2001.
>Ever notice Guld's last name? Bowman.
>
>

Sharon's "eye" is rather reminiscent of HAL's too. And as far as names
go, how about Isamu's? Isamu Alva Dyson.

Alva, rather obviously, a reference to Thomas Alva Edison, and this would
indicate that Dyson is probably a reference to the American physicist
Freeman Dyson, who postulated the "Dyson Sphere."

Although I can't help wondering, given Mac+'s subject matter, if Dyson is
also a reference to the name of the final test pilot on Have Blue-- the
Stealth Fighter prototype.

the pig

[Matsuura-kun]

Dragon...@brown.edu (Dragonmaster Lou) wrote:
>Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
>>Dragon...@brown.edu (Dragonmaster Lou) wrote:
>>>zan...@netcom.com (Ryo-oh-ki) wrote:
>>>
>>>> HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^
>>>
>>>Isn't as attractive either, hehe.
>>
>> Ahh... but which version of Sharon...
>
>The holographic version. :)

Ahh... but which holographic version of Sharon...
I like the one with short orange hair... especially when she's
sitting on a stool listening to the phone wearing the short black
one-piece with design same as the space and stars in the background
during the concert in episode two, ne...

[Rik/Hikaru]

In article <318447...@netural.com>, ev...@netural.com says...

>
>Dragonmaster Lou wrote:
>>
>> zan...@netcom.com (Ryo-oh-ki) wrote:
>>
>> > HAL doesn't sing as well as Sharon Apple. ^_^
>>
>> Isn't as attractive either, hehe.

>> Sharon Apple has better earrings too.

I dunno, HAL looks pretty cute with that hamster on his head (Mac7 Trash)
^_^;;
(I sure hope no-one takes this seriously!)

-Rik/Hikaru

--
***********Macross********Patlabor**************Gundam****************
Richard (Rik) Newman Co-founder Anime Anonymous(Sheffield)
Acting President for Anime Anonymous Sheffield
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~aas/
DOLFAN in UK!
"Is he following in the footsteps of Lynn Minmay?"
email: R.D.N...@Sheffield.ac.uk
***********Lodoss*********Miyazaki**************Gainax****************

[Dragonmaster Lou]

Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:

> Ahh... but which holographic version of Sharon...
> I like the one with short orange hair... especially when she's
>sitting on a stool listening to the phone wearing the short black
>one-piece with design same as the space and stars in the background
>during the concert in episode two, ne...

Hmm, good point. To be honest, I kind of liked them all, but I guess
my favorite was the one at the end.

[Ian James Abbott]

In article <4m6llv$u...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, wt...@cornell.edu

(PsychoKick) writes:
>In article <4m5v3h$e...@larry.rice.edu>,

> David Christain Wuensche <ottavio> wrote:
>>Supposedly one of the designers or writers of the series is a fan of 2001.
>>Ever notice Guld's last name? Bowman.
>>
>

>There's a fair amount of sci-fi/science references in Mac+:
>
> Isamu Dyson = the Dyson sphere
> Yan Neumann = Neumann was some great physicist (I don't recall why)

That would be a reference to the Hungarian/American mathematician John
von Neumann, whose work led to the development of the electronic
computer.

> Guld Bowman = David Bowman from 2001 (as previous poster indicated)
>
>I'm sure there are some more, these are just off the top of my head.

--
Ian James Abbott (Play: ja...@spuddy.mew.co.uk) | ^,@ RASPBERRY
(Work (also play): i...@perfect.airtime.co.uk) | U \ "Biida!" CORNER
B-Ko: It's an anti-submersible skimmer. | A big raspberry to HMV
A-Ko: Really? Looks like a toilet to me! | for charging >RRP

<<Go Go Flower Rangers!>> "We need Pansy Power now! Flower up!"

[David Christain Wuensche]

Not really. Remember the series' dedication: To all Pioneers. Bowman,
Edison, and Dyson were all pioneers in one fasion or another.