Anime Potrayal of Japanese Women
Rafael Brown
>> >Why, then are many of the Anime heros women? Are any of the stories written
Japan is a very sexist society. Of course so is the US just less openly.
>> >by women? If the stories are written by men, all charachters of any gender
>> >will reflect the personality of the author, and macho-type aggression seems
>> >especially extreme when done by a woman.
>
There are a great many more male manga artists than female ones. As for why
anime heroines are so common, at least in boy's manga its because
the male adolescent Japanese fanboy likes to drool over "anime girls"
while watching the usual formulaic action video. There are still more
male hero dominated shows and manga (especially in the giant robot and
extreme blood and guts genres). But stuff like Sol Bianca, Mamono (Devil)
Hunter Yohko, BubbleHEAD Crisis, Silent Mobius, Dirty Pair, and Gall Force
shows how easily sex and violence are meshed together for phenomenal sales.
Hell look no farther than Wandering Kid (aka Legend of the Overfiend). It
is no wonder that fanboys on this side of the Pacific have been talking
about that piece of crap for quite a while. They are just as gullible for
any junk that is marketed as containing loads of sex and violence as their
Japanese counterparts. Never mind the fact that the movie is one of the
most misogynistic compilations of dreck to ever be seen in anime (as well
as having plot holes I could stick my arm through).
> Actually, in the Japanese household, it's the woman who controls
>anything. The men walk around real macho like trying to cover up the fact
>that they can't piss in a pot withour asking for the wife's permission.
>
Very wrong. I'm sorry but you don't know much about Asian societies other
than what you've seen in Urusei Yatsura and other anime (that's what your
statement points to). Yes, women run the household but men run the finances,
control the family structure, have the jobs, etc. Men in Japanese societies
as in many Asian societies are very patriarchal. Get your head out of anime
and look at the real world before you make such statements. Just as in the
US, Japanese women are physically and mentally abused, raped, have little
say in what happens in the family, are discriminated against in the job
market, are discouraged from seeking higher education, etc. Patriarchal
family structures are more pronounced in Japan than here due to the small
gains made by the feminist movement in the US and the more traditional
mentality of the Japanese to this day.
Where do I get my information? I get it from several sources. Books, articles,
etc. For ex. The New York Times has carried articles on job discrimination
against women in Japan and on the forced prostitution of Korean, Chinese, and
South East Asian women during WWII for japanese soldiers. Sorta like the
mass rape that happened in Bosnia except that since it involved two non-
white groups nobody cared. I also get my info from courses I've taken in
college on Japanese history, by talking to friends who are Japanese and
Japanese-American, and through conversations with my girlfirend who is
Taiwanese-American and has experienced firsthand Asian patriarchy. She's also
an Asian American Studies/Sociology major.
[the next statement refers to a story involving "bitchy" women.]
> Take it from her, she probably knows how bitchy women really are. :)
>
When women voice their opinions they are bitchy, when men do it they are just
being assertive? Then people internalize the double standard and don't
realize the inherent prejudice involved in such statements. Go figure.
And please don't say women are bitchy because of PMS. PMS has been found
to have no effect on moods and emotions of women, though it is perceived
to have that effect (from my Social Psychology coursework). Women are
always being blamed for being out of control, its one more way for a
patriarchal society to control them.
>> A lot of anime is written purely for the purposes of entertainment and
>> escapism. Violent characters tend to do things a lot of people would
>> want to do but can't (or won't). For example: how many times have you
>> gotten the urge to punt some idiot in orbit for whatever reason?
>>
It is written for the escapist fantasies of a very definite audience. It
then seeks out exactly what that audience wants and shamelessly exploits
it often at the loss of creativity and originality. Oh about violence in
anime as being a projection of something you want to do but can't or
won't what about the demonic rape sequences in Wandering Kid. Your hypothesis
gives good fuel for the Miyazaki murder case to be taken seriously as an
indictment of all otakus for their escapism. Make of that what you will.
>> Of course, there are a multitude of other explanations available. Perhaps
>> someone versed in sociology (sorry about the spelling) will get the urge to
>> reply to this...
>
As a Afro-American Studies major with a focus on Sociology and Social
Psychology I've been looking very critically at anime. There are things
I like and things I don't like and then there are things that I can't believe
others like; finally there are things that worry me. This is not to say
that anime will ever cause any act of opression just that it can be
symptomatic of some very troubling trends in American society. I'm
referring to the blind popularity of stuff like Beast City, Cream Lemon,
Wandering Kid, Guy, etc. and to a lesser extent the whole gamut of lolicon
and girls-with-guns genres.
> I am an anthropology major, so I kinda know about people and all that.
>I think you probably are right. Since it's usually the men running around
>being agressive, having a woman running around beating people up is even
>funnier. Plus, maybe it reflects the reality of social Japan?
>
The more common anime female is the giggly girl who may have mysterious
powers but is still dependent on the average joe male character. This
sort of storyline reinforces the adolescent male confidence that "girls" for
all their strangeness are still subordinate to "men". VGAi, Sazan 3x3 Eyes,
Ah! My Goddess, and Outlanders are four examples I can think of off the top
of my head. Of course Rumiko Takahashi has done wonders to subvert this genre.
Others like Takahata and Miyazaki are commendable in doing serious anime
and avoiding that stuff completely as they present truly powerful stories.
The social reality of Japan is about as far from Urusei Yatsura as it is
from the pink and green-haired women portrayed in anime. I guess I'm a
pessimist but I've seen too much of what groups of people can do wrong to
have much faith in good intentions and innocent "fun".
>Sarah (a.k.a The Fangirl)
Rafael Brown
st10...@brownvm.brown.edu
Anime Hasshin member
given to occasional ramblings of sociological discourse
And I hate Urotsukidoji/Wandering Kid/Overfiend!!!!!
Iain Sinclair
>Yes, women run the household but men run the finances,
>control the family structure, have the jobs, etc.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Plenty of Japanese women have
the final (or only) say in the purse-strings, and the upbringing
of their kids.
>Your hypothesis
>gives good fuel for the Miyazaki murder case to be taken seriously as an
>indictment of all otakus for their escapism. Make of that what you will.
Well, most otakus won't feel the need to go and butcher someone as
long as they have something sufficiently distracting. It's the same
everywhere, really.
>I'm referring to the blind popularity of stuff like Beast City, Cream Lemon,
>Wandering Kid, Guy, etc. and to a lesser extent the whole gamut of lolicon
>and girls-with-guns genres.
Well, that particular stuff is just filling a niche, much the same as
US splatter movies, porn, etc. do. There are important differences,
too.
>The more common anime female is the giggly girl who may have mysterious
>powers but is still dependent on the average joe male character. This
>sort of storyline reinforces the adolescent male confidence that "girls" for
>all their strangeness are still subordinate to "men". VGAi, Sazan 3x3 Eyes,
>Ah! My Goddess, and Outlanders are four examples I can think of off the top
>of my head.
They aren't very good examples. After all, the girls in those stories are
the ones with the real power. They're the ones who have the final say
in the relationships.
>The social reality of Japan is about as far from Urusei Yatsura as it is
>from the pink and green-haired women portrayed in anime.
Japan has plenty of girls with pink and green-dyed hair, I'm told. :-)
Takahashi is not a "subversive" by any stretch of the imagination,
either. She's just catering to a market, like 99.8% of the other
people in the industry. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Paul Siu
>> There are a great many more male manga artists than female ones. As for why
>> anime heroines are so common, at least in boy's manga its because
>> the male adolescent Japanese fanboy likes to drool over "anime girls"
>> while watching the usual formulaic action video. There are still more
>> male hero dominated shows and manga (especially in the giant robot and
>> extreme blood and guts genres). But stuff like Sol Bianca, Mamono (Devil)
>> Hunter Yohko, BubbleHEAD Crisis, Silent Mobius, Dirty Pair, and Gall Force
>> shows how easily sex and violence are meshed together for phenomenal sales.
I thought this was also partly due to a marketing thing, since there are more
male manga/anime fans than female manga/anime fans. Male fans does tend to
drool over female anime girls.
Still, some of the stories you have listed above have some merit. Besides,
if you remove all elements of anime girl from anime, you're basically left
with Rumic Takahasi, and Hayao Miyazaki stuff.
>> Hell look no farther than Wandering Kid (aka Legend of the Overfiend). It
>> is no wonder that fanboys on this side of the Pacific have been talking
>> about that piece of crap for quite a while. They are just as gullible for
Urg! Not Wandering Kid again. No one that I know of is a fan of this anime.
On the other hand, people talk about it is because it is so shocking, and
they see it for curiousity sake. It's sort of like Madonna marketing.
> [various things about Japanese society deleted, because I don't know
anything about Japanese culture]
>> [the next statement refers to a story involving "bitchy" women.]
> Take it from her, she probably knows how bitchy women really are. :)
>
>> When women voice their opinions they are bitchy, when men do it they are just
>> being assertive? Then people internalize the double standard and don't
>> realize the inherent prejudice involved in such statements. Go figure.
I don't find women in anime to be bitchy, just particularly violent.
Being assertive vocally is one thing, being assertive with mallets, and
guns is violent no matter who you are.
PMS induced mood swings are largely myth any way. If I remember correctly,
it's not even viable as a criminal defense.
>> A lot of anime is written purely for the purposes of entertainment and
>> escapism. Violent characters tend to do things a lot of people would
>> want to do but can't (or won't). For example: how many times have you
>> gotten the urge to punt some idiot in orbit for whatever reason?
>>
>> It is written for the escapist fantasies of a very definite audience. It
>> then seeks out exactly what that audience wants and shamelessly exploits
>> it often at the loss of creativity and originality. Oh about violence in
>> anime as being a projection of something you want to do but can't or
>> won't what about the demonic rape sequences in Wandering Kid. Your hypothesis
>> gives good fuel for the Miyazaki murder case to be taken seriously as an
>> indictment of all otakus for their escapism. Make of that what you will.
All entertainment is in some way escapism. Violence and sex can be creative
and original if used logically. This does not justify stuff like Wandering
Kid.
Miyazaki murder case should not be applied to all escapism. Every hobby
has its bad egg, and it only take one to label the entire hobbist as evil.
One similar example is the stink about 10 years ago about how D&D was
causing teenagers to become insane hack & slash individuals. There is a
distinct line between fantasy, and reality. Most people will not cross
it (often fantasy are best left unfulled due to the limitation of reality).
Those who cross the line are generally unbalanced individual to begin with.
Their "insanity" may have been caused by other factors, the hobby only gave
them an outlet or focus.
>> others like; finally there are things that worry me. This is not to say
>> that anime will ever cause any act of opression just that it can be
>> symptomatic of some very troubling trends in American society. I'm
>> referring to the blind popularity of stuff like Beast City, Cream Lemon,
>> Wandering Kid, Guy, etc. and to a lesser extent the whole gamut of lolicon
>> and girls-with-guns genres.
........
>> The more common anime female is the giggly girl who may have mysterious
>> powers but is still dependent on the average joe male character. This
>> sort of storyline reinforces the adolescent male confidence that "girls" for
>> all their strangeness are still subordinate to "men". VGAi, Sazan 3x3 Eyes,
>> Ah! My Goddess, and Outlanders are four examples I can think of off the top
>> of my head. Of course Rumiko Takahashi has done wonders to subvert this genre.
>> Other
You are partly right, Ah! My Goddess would probably not be as popular if
it were Ah! My God. I still enjoyed the manga because it was funny in a
funny in a clean sort of way. I kind of gotten the impression that the
male was subordinate to the female in Outlanders. I may be wrong since
I didn't read too carefully. I am not a fan of woman in brass bikini with
sword genre.
in Outlanders
>> Rafael Brown
>> st10...@brownvm.brown.edu
>> Anime Hasshin member
>> given to occasional ramblings of sociological discourse
>> And I hate Urotsukidoji/Wandering Kid/Overfiend!!!!!
Paul
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Def : Team H - an employee of Herman Sporting Good store. |
| -- The Mundane Dictionary |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Paul Siu up...@mcs.drexel.edu |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Iskandar Taib
>Miyazaki murder case should not be applied to all escapism. Every hobby
>has its bad egg, and it only take one to label the entire hobbist as evil.
>One similar example is the stink about 10 years ago about how D&D was
>causing teenagers to become insane hack & slash individuals. There is a
>distinct line between fantasy, and reality. Most people will not cross
>it (often fantasy are best left unfulled due to the limitation of reality).
>Those who cross the line are generally unbalanced individual to begin with.
>Their "insanity" may have been caused by other factors, the hobby only gave
>them an outlet or focus.
Sorry for being out of touch but what exactly happened? Did he get
murdered or did he murder someone?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NT...@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !
rmc
>The more common anime female is the giggly girl who may have mysterious
>powers but is still dependent on the average joe male character. This
>sort of storyline reinforces the adolescent male confidence that "girls" for
>all their strangeness are still subordinate to "men". VGAi, Sazan 3x3 Eyes,
>Ah! My Goddess, and Outlanders are four examples I can think of off the top
>of my head.
(Now, now, your fight with Battia is hardly serious.)
{Damn right it wasn't serious! Battia and i have been friends for
ever, of course we clown around! I fly the star ship, i heal my
friends, i confuse the enemy when they've got us surrounded, and i'm
just a "giggly girl", "subordinate to men"? Where would Tetsuya be
if i hadn't pushed him? He would have stuck with Aki; i decided
when we were ready to kiss, to go to bed, to... AARGH!}
(Which caters to another sort of wishful thinking. Lots of guys wish
someone wonderful would just pop into their lives and take them by
storm. Look at the popularity of Belldandy.)
{Hmm, i'm not sure we should comment on "Ah! Megami-sama". Chilenskas
no Baka has only picked up the first volume for us to read. But i'll
believe axolotl before i believe someone with a number for a name.
After all, Iain actually reads the stuph.}
<gomen nasai...>
(You'd better be sorry! Pai's an interesting case. She's an airhead,
and dependent on Yakumo. But she's also the Sanjiyan. So she's both
the real power and the dependent.)
{Miyu's another example of an "obviously subordinate female". She
certainly does giggle from time to time, so she must be subordinate
to Larva. And you. I guess you're dependent on Roy, right?}
(In his dreams! Let's think some more. Luna must be subordinate to
the prince, since there is a prince.)
{I don't know, they just get embarrassed around each other. Sort of
like Tetsuya in the early days. There's no actual relationship
established, just a strong hint that they want one when things quiet
down. How about the "Knight Sabres"? Mana and Yuuta? Akane?
Yawara? Yagame?}
<There are all sorts of wishes, and all sorts of wish fulfillment. I
suspect that trying to categorize anime as reinforcing "'girls' for
all their strangeness are still subordinate to 'men'" or fulfilling
only one kind of wish, or portraying only one kind of relationship,
will always be "refutable" by a deluge of counter-examples.>
(It's not even a matter of wish fullfilment, it's a matter of good
stories. If you don't want to be *any* of the character in a story,
it's probably not for you. Do you really think Raphael is arguing
that no women want to be in those positions? Or that the "anime
portrayal of women" is degrading or some such, so that they "ought
not" want to identify with any of the women characters in anime?)
<I don't know what he'd think about that. He only seems to be
arguing that anime provides a certain kind of bias, a certain kind of
wish fulfillment and a certain target audience. I don't agree, and i
think you two came up with plenty of counter examples.>
(Raphael would probably argue that the women all gave up a lot in the
relationships. Yawara-san wants a boyfriend, not a judo championship.
Priss won't get a relationship because she won't take second to
anyone, not even Sylia. Yagame-san, for all her aggressiveness wants to
cook and clean up for Godai-sensei. Yuuta-san goes to work for the
short periods he an Mana-san stay in one place, and he's constantly
saving Mana-san.)
<Gack! You're a better devil's advocate than i am!>
{And Raphael makes a really good devil. At least today. Besides,
Tetsuya cooks for me, not the other way around. Mana-san saves
Yuuta-san as often as the other way around. Muda-san is willing to
sacrifice his career (such as it is) for Yawara-san. There's give
and take, more in some relationships than in others.}
<Humph. How "real life": "Love is a silent surrender".>
{"Cheerful love is just a carp in the pond."}
<Dead horse?>
(Nah, Raphael will respond. Just temporarily out of comments.)
R Mark Chilenskas
r...@wang.com
rmc
(ST10...@BROWNVM.brown.edu) disagreed on whether four certain female
characters were "dependent" on the male character. Rafael's post is
earlier:
> >The more common anime female is the giggly girl who may have mysterious
> >powers but is still dependent on the average joe male character. This
> >sort of storyline reinforces the adolescent male confidence that
> >"girls" for all their strangeness are still subordinate to "men".
> >VGAi, Sazan 3x3 Eyes, Ah! My Goddess, and Outlanders are four
> >examples I can think of off the top of my head.
>
>They aren't very good examples. After all, the girls in those
>stories are the ones with the real power. They're the ones who
>have the final say in the relationships.
mh...@haverford.edu (Michael Han) then replies to Iain:
>your arguments that the _final_ empowerment of women is really weak. it
>is _not_ sufficient to be the, so to speak, power behind the throne, the
>one really in control in the background, unless it is by choice.
>...
>if women are relegated to this role, even if it is an empowered role, it is
>not equal. they cannot assume the role of being openly in control. it
>is one thing to willingly play the "silent manipulator." it is another
>thing to be forced into that role.
Now while i can partially agree with the statement of the above point,
it seems not to apply to the all of the four cases Iain and Rafael
originally discussed.
In particlular, Kahm-sama from Outlanders is not the "Power behind the
throne", she IS "the throne", with rights above anyone except her
father. She isn't a "silent manipulator", she's openly in control of
her relationship with Tetsuya-san and an equal partner with Battia and
Gebardi in planning and running "the rebellion".
While one can certainly argue for Pai-chan being a "giggly girl", i
still contend that the Sanjiyan is the one openly in control of the
relationship. After all, she decides to leave; Yakumo-san needs to go
after her. Yes, she gets tired after using magic and Yakumo-san has to
save her twice. I think she keeps him from frying more often than
that! The only real "behind the throne manipulator" here would seem
to be Yakumo-san's father, for setting them up in the first place.
Now with Belldandy-sama it's a harder call; i haven't seen near as
much of the manga, and haven't seen the OAV yet either. It is
certainly true that she is constrained to be with Morisato-san because
of his wish. And the "enforcing power of the wish" certainly puts
major constraints on what both characters can do about the
relationship. Beyond that, who is "in control"? Morisato-san gets
the two of them kicked out of his dorm room, and drags Belldandy-sama
around looking for a new place to crash. But she finds the place.
Morisato-san is embarrassed by her dress, and she changes it.
Belldandy-sama finds her own place at NIT, and builds the backup
documentation so she won't be hassled. Belldandy-sama is the one who
coaches Morisato-san's sister for the entrance exams. Despite having
made it into NIT, it seems that Morisato-san can't handle the exam any
more, and is probably not as sharp as his sister any who. So this
would seem a fairly even relationship, with a fair amount of sharing.
I can't argue at all for or against "Video Girl AI", having seen none
of either the manga nor the anime. From the summaries on the net, it
would seem the only case of the four where Rafael and Mike have a
point.
So we have Kahm-sama definitely the active partner in control, Ai-chan
probably not in control, and Belldandy-sama and the Sanjian in pretty
even relationships. I really, really just can't see this as
supporting a sterotype of what Japanese women can and cannot do. I'm
sure there are countless examples which could support a few
stereotypes. "Bitchiness", "in the background" and "nude" are three
which have been discussed recently in this group. But we can also
come up with a bunch of anime and / or manga to support stereotypes
that women are "smarter", "stronger", and / or "the real problem
solvers".
Anime and manga as entertainment are wish fullfilment vehicles. There
are lots of wishes in the world. The entertainment is correspondingly
diverse.
R Mark Chilenskas
r...@wang.com
Scott Henry
>>>>> In article <RMC.93Ma...@miyazaki.wang.com>, r...@wang.com (rmc) writes:
rmc> I can't argue at all for or against "Video Girl AI", having seen none
rmc> of either the manga nor the anime. From the summaries on the net, it
rmc> would seem the only case of the four where Rafael and Mike have a
rmc> point.
I'll just to add a brief description of Video Girl Ai. I've read most
of the manga, and seen none of the OAVs yet.
The video girls are supposed to be (at least somewhat) dependant,
submissive, wish-fulfilment "giggly-girls" -- that is (partly) their
purpose. They aren't supposed to have enough (or the right type of)
personality to keep a relationship going. However, Youta's VCR was
broken, so that when he played Ai's tape, Ai became "broken" -- she
got a real personality. But she still had the finite life of a video
girl, and much of the story is how that gets worked around.
=-=-=
--
Scott Henry <sco...@sgi.com> / Just Another Anime & Manga Fan
Michael Han
From: rmc, r...@wang.com
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 14:39:39 GMT
>Now while i can partially agree with the statement of the above point,
>it seems not to apply to the all of the four cases Iain and Rafael
>originally discussed.
my point concerning the "power behind the throne" or the "silent
manipulator" is a metaphor. i'm trying to get across a point concerning
the nature of the power wielded by women. the actual examples may or may
not bear out my claims, but what i am saying in a more general sense, is
that even when a woman is empowered in anime, my sense of the general
trend is that her holding of the power must be clothed in some sense of
powerlessness. even if she doesn have the real power, she doesn't fully
convey the sense of having that power, and if she does, she is "bitchy."
the "giggly girl" conceals her true power, her true worth, by acting in a
manner that is inconsistent with her ability. if she can obliterate you,
why doesn't she act it? i know this is a tough argument to swallow,
because until i found myself agreeing with it, i made the same arguments
that you are making now.
what i am trying to say though, is simply that perhaps a closer look
needs to be taken at the role of women, and not only in anime, although i
think that anime is interesting to examine for its nature as being
audience-directed and and as being from the japanese culture, which we in
america generally perceive as oppressive with regards to the role of
women.
again, to recapitulate, why must a woman in an anime, or in any media
role, hold a concealed power? and if she does not, what is our
perception of such her? just some things to consider.
mike han (mh...@haverford.edu)
Brett Barbaro
In regards to this ongoing dispute, there's lots of anime that I'm
surprised noone has mentioned. As long as were talking generalizations here,
I'd like to say that I like the way that anime portrays women, and for
almost the opposite reasons as those stated. Anime women have always been
attractive to me because they are _not_ weak and male-dependent. They are
strong characters - in general, even stronger than women in American media -
but they do not gain this strength at the price of their femininity. Yes,
they are often "giggly girls." And I do not deny that there is a strong
element of fantasy-fulfillment in them. But even the women that I've talked
to agree that anime portrays women in strong roles.
One example would be A-ko, who takes on a 4 mile long ship single-
handed and WINS. Now, of course, this is parody, and the contrast is part
of what makes it amusing. But I must point out that every character in the
movie (at least the first one) is female, and that includes the super-villian,
the captain of the invading ship, D, and the teacher, all in controlling,
powerful roles. While this movie might not be a pedestal for Women's rights,
it can hardly be said to downplay to role of women.
Moving on, I think Nausicaa has already been mentioned, but if she
hasn't, she ought to be. She fills the Luke Skywalker role in Japanese Anime
very well. At one with nature, princess and heir to the throne, subordinate
in spirit to no man, and in political power only to her father.
Also, there is the entire squad of Attacked Mystification Police,
where there is scarcely a love interest even. These are not "giggly" girls,
but strong, highly-skilled and highly organized women who kick some male butt
in the picture.
I've always thought of Madoka having the power in the KOR series -
for although Kyosuke is "burdened" with the right of choice, Madoka surely
has the strongest character. She overwhelms Kyosuke just as she overwhelms the
series.
Then there's Noe in PatLabor, a stand-alone female hero; Noriko in
Gunbuster, Fujiko in the Lupin series...I'm sure I could go on if I wanted to.
But the point is made. "Anime" does -not- generally portray females as
"giggly girls". Many movies might, but I think it would be useful, to restrict
the topic to these movies without calling the whole are form into question.
To cap it off - I have always liked anime women, and the ones I've
liked most have been strong characters with real personalities, but still
in touch with their femininity. As the French say - Vive la difference! (I'm
not sure of the spelling on that - the only one I have to corroborate with is
a Russian)
-Magic Otaku Barbaro