[Industry] Are licensing costs too high or is our imagination too low?
Philip Yff
Rumors abound that the reason the best series do not make it over here
is that licensing costs are too high. There are even more ominous rumors
about the demise or bankruptcy of one company or another.
Japan is famous for its business partnerships. Companies that share
an interest form a strong mutual bond. Yet, I haven't seen much evidence
of such partnerships in the world of anime. It seems to me that its time
to redefine the relationships that we have been operating under for the
mutual benefit of anime fans, Japanese companies, and companies
that license anime for release outside of Japan.
Oh, sure, there have been some collaborative efforts, but we've barely
touched the surface. Another issue is the perception that price is the
only variable. The Japanese have a reputation for respecting quality.
Artists the world over are very picky about how their creations are
dealt with. There are business people in the world of anime, but there
are also creative artists. Companies that have a reputation for superior
quality should be able to get an edge.
I think that companies should form strong partnerships. While a new TV
series, OAV, or movie is in the conceptual stage, companies that have an
interest in licensing a product outside of Japan should invest and become
involved. If the translators and dubbing staff and cast are able to
follow the creative process in Japan, the translation will be of much higher
quality.
Of course, the counter argument is "What about the huge risk we're taking?
What if the show fails to be popular?" My only answer is that by waiting
to see if a show is popular, there is no uncertainty. There is certainty
that the cost will be sky high and there is still risk--there is a cost
risk and there is the risk that other companies will outbid you.
My feeling also that if partnerships are formed, Japanese companies will be
much better disposed to non-Japanese companies that are willing to share
their risks. The fans will benefit from getting quicker releases. I also
think there is an advantage in releasing anime in translation while it is
still showing in Japan. I feel the cross country interchange will boost
popularity and increase sales both in and out of Japan.
Mata ato de,
Phil Yff
Netto wa koudai da ne ......
The net is vast, right ......
Major Kusanagi, Ghost in the Shell
Invid fan
> Rumors abound that the reason the best series do not make it over here
> is that licensing costs are too high. There are even more ominous rumors
> about the demise or bankruptcy of one company or another.
>
> Japan is famous for its business partnerships. Companies that share
> an interest form a strong mutual bond. Yet, I haven't seen much evidence
> of such partnerships in the world of anime. It seems to me that its time
> to redefine the relationships that we have been operating under for the
> mutual benefit of anime fans, Japanese companies, and companies
> that license anime for release outside of Japan.
snip
> I think that companies should form strong partnerships. While a new TV
> series, OAV, or movie is in the conceptual stage, companies that have an
> interest in licensing a product outside of Japan should invest and become
> involved. If the translators and dubbing staff and cast are able to
> follow the creative process in Japan, the translation will be of much higher
> quality.
>
I've thought for years that American anime companies should should get
together and go after certain titles. Yes, no one company can afford
Gundam, but if all of them pooled their money, then divided the various
series up among them according to what they do best, it'd be win-win for
everyone.
As for American/Japanese partnerships, that exists already. Pioneer and Viz
are arms of a Japanese Parent. ADV and Manga Ent. have helped fund Anime.
AnimEigo had a working agreement with Artmic/AIC, and was shopping BGC TV
around various cable stations last year to provide AIC the financial
incentive to start production. Macross II was only finished because the
American dubs were making money, while the Japanese wouldn't touch it :)
--
Chris Mack "...any occult ritual ought to involve
'Invid fan' (a) nudity
(b) wearing a bad hat, and
In...@localnet.com (c) assuming an uncomfortable and ludicrous
position"
-Penn and Teller
John Sirabella
Hi Philip,
Philip Yff <yf...@wizard.net> wrote in article <62aoc7$3...@drn.zippo.com>...
> Rumors abound that the reason the best series do not make it over here
> is that licensing costs are too high. There are even more ominous rumors
> about the demise or bankruptcy of one company or another.
On the most part these rumors are true. Also there are other factors which
most fans do not understand. To sum it up, the Japanese companies can not
understand why Americans like Japanese anime. They feel the cultural
difference is too great. In addition the companies are making so much
money in Japan that given our limited sales they do not feel it is worth
there while. Tell me the last time you have seen a Shueshia title relaed
in the USA!!!!
>
> Japan is famous for its business partnerships. Companies that share
> an interest form a strong mutual bond. Yet, I haven't seen much evidence
> of such partnerships in the world of anime. It seems to me that its time
> to redefine the relationships that we have been operating under for the
> mutual benefit of anime fans, Japanese companies, and companies
> that license anime for release outside of Japan.
Nice idea and in some ways has been done with Viz and Urban Vision which
have very strong ties with Japanese counter parts but in general not
likely. You may see though in the future more co-productions if the market
continues to expand.
>
> Oh, sure, there have been some collaborative efforts, but we've barely
> touched the surface. Another issue is the perception that price is the
> only variable. The Japanese have a reputation for respecting quality.
> Artists the world over are very picky about how their creations are
> dealt with. There are business people in the world of anime, but there
> are also creative artists. Companies that have a reputation for superior
> quality should be able to get an edge.
>
This fact in general is true but also true is that the Japanese see this as
a business. If the business is not profitable enough it does not make a
difference. There are very few exceptions.
> I think that companies should form strong partnerships. While a new TV
> series, OAV, or movie is in the conceptual stage, companies that have an
> interest in licensing a product outside of Japan should invest and become
> involved. If the translators and dubbing staff and cast are able to
> follow the creative process in Japan, the translation will be of much
higher
> quality.
>
This is already happening such dubbing studios as Zero G has office in the
USA and Japan. When they do their dubs they always ask for the advice of
the Japanese counter parts.
> My feeling also that if partnerships are formed, Japanese companies will
be
> much better disposed to non-Japanese companies that are willing to share
> their risks. The fans will benefit from getting quicker releases. I
also
> think there is an advantage in releasing anime in translation while it is
> still showing in Japan. I feel the cross country interchange will boost
> popularity and increase sales both in and out of Japan.
>
I see your point but I think you should see what the Japanese feel about
the market for anime in the USA. In general they feel it is growing but
still very small. You would be surprised US companies try like heck to get
the hot titles. Most of the time are just ignored because the Japanese
companies feel the market is too small and not worth the time of the paper
work.
In the future as things get larger this may change. Ghost in the Shell is a
very good example of a show hitting it big but that was only one video.
- John Sirabella
Mr. Groovy
In article <01bcdc23$be5d8fa0$89ea77ce@john-blast>, "John Sirabella"
<ki...@iac.net> wrote:
> On the most part these rumors are true. Also there are other factors which
> most fans do not understand. To sum it up, the Japanese companies can not
> understand why Americans like Japanese anime. They feel the cultural
> difference is too great. In addition the companies are making so much
> money in Japan that given our limited sales they do not feel it is worth
> there while. Tell me the last time you have seen a Shueshia title relaed
> in the USA!!!!
Since you work within the industry yourself, I really can't argue
against that. However, what about titles that've been co-financed by
foreign companies, like Ghost in the Shell and M.D. Geist II? It hardly
seems reasonable that Japanese companies don't think the American market
is important AT ALL, Shueshia nonwithstanding...
That's all I have to say related to the argument. However, I do have
one question: Mr. Sirabella, when will your company release something
non-pornographic? Many of the Kitty Media releases I've seen have been
interesting-- Ogenki Clinic is nothing short of hilarious-- but hentai
anime isn't really my favorite.
I remember people talking about how you announced some upcoming
"normal" releases at Otakon... what are these, and when can we expect to
see them?
Chomping at the bit for more new stuff,
Mike Toole
--
|------>Michael "mr. groovy" Toole.
email:mazi...@tiac.net<------------------|
|-------------------->http://www.tiac.net/users/mazinger
ska music and japanese cartoons!<------------------------|
Jim Huang
In article <01bcdc23$be5d8fa0$89ea77ce@john-blast>, "John Sirabella" <ki...@iac.net> wrote:
>difference is too great. In addition the companies are making so much
>money in Japan that given our limited sales they do not feel it is worth
>there while. Tell me the last time you have seen a Shueshia title relaed
>in the USA!!!!
Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z? Before that FoNS.
Jim Huang
Philip Yff
In article <01bcdc23$be5d8fa0$89ea77ce@john-blast>, "John says...
>Hi Philip,
>Philip Yff <yf...@wizard.net> wrote in article <62aoc7$3...@drn.zippo.com>...
>> Rumors abound that the reason the best series do not make it over here
>> is that licensing costs are too high. There are even more ominous rumors
>> about the demise or bankruptcy of one company or another.
>On the most part these rumors are true. Also there are other factors which
>most fans do not understand. To sum it up, the Japanese companies can not
>understand why Americans like Japanese anime. They feel the cultural
>difference is too great. In addition the companies are making so much
>money in Japan that given our limited sales they do not feel it is worth
>there while. Tell me the last time you have seen a Shueshia title relaed
>in the USA!!!!
[much good discussion snipped]
There are many impediments. I agree with all the points you make. If the
things I suggest are easy, they would be in wide practice. What I'm
suggesting is that if you go in with the mindset that it's too difficult
then naturally you will fail. However, if you say to yourself, "I'm going
to inspire the Japanese industry to want to penetrate the US market," I
suggest there's a good chance for success. I've done a lot of contracting
work in the east (none of it in the entertainment business)--here's what
I've found:
The person is always more important than the business deal.
A personal relationship must be established before there is a business
partnership.
You strive for agreements in principle--not hard commitments. If you fail
in a hard commitment, you lose face, so you avoid putting yourself at risk.
Big conferences and meetings accomplish little. You can't make any decisions
of impact at these large gatherings. Again, the reason is there is too
much of an opportunity to lose face if things go awry.
Quick decisions are the exception not the rule. Patience is of the essence.
If I were in the entertainment business, this is what my strategy would be.
I would go to Japan and plan to spend at least three months just circulating
in the right circles. I would make my products available for viewing. I
would spend a lot of time talking philosophically about cultural exchanges
and why Americans like anime. I would wait for people to come to me with
ideas. I would build relationships based on the common ground between my
company and the Japanese. I would never for an instant doubt that my
venture would end in failure.
I know the opposing view. This is a cutthroat business. Profit margins
are small. We can't afford to send someone on a wild goose chase. All
I can say is that many people who have tried to do the safe thing have
failed. That's why I say, let's do the imaginative thing.
Dave Menendez
> If I were in the entertainment business, this is what my strategy would be.
> I would go to Japan and plan to spend at least three months just circulating
> in the right circles. I would make my products available for viewing. I
> would spend a lot of time talking philosophically about cultural exchanges
> and why Americans like anime. I would wait for people to come to me with
> ideas. I would build relationships based on the common ground between my
> company and the Japanese. I would never for an instant doubt that my
> venture would end in failure.
Is that a typo? It doesn't seem worth it to go to all that trouble if you
know you're going to fail....
The rest is certainly worth thinking about though.
-- Dave Menendez
Philip Yff
In article <Pine.UW2.3.95.971019233244.27550E-100000@cyber2>, Cernovog says...
>On 18 Oct 1997, Philip Yff wrote:
[snip]
;> I would argue that this is innacurate. There most certainly is
;>uncertainly and risk in bringing even the most successful anime to North
;>America. A good (though, admittedly, not perfect) example is Sailor Moon.
;>This was the #1 TV show in Japan. It spawned millions of dollars in
;>merchandise. It has won fans the world over. Yet it has proven to be a big
:>disappointment for DiC. It has done poorly on U.S. television (although
:>the Canadians are going CRaZy over it) and it's merchandise has done even
;>worse.
:> I admit, that most of this is the fault of DiC and their own bungling
;>poor business practices and cheap, cheap, cheap way of doing things.
DIC, in my view, certainly made some bad moves. I think, also, there were
impediments outside DIC's control. Ever on the positive side, I would
argue that considering the obstacles that Sailor Moon did quite well here
and that it's popularity considering its atrocious time slots was an
indication that the US TV market is hungry for shows of this nature.
sean broderick
philip yff:
your last posting on this seems the most relevant. anyone might wonder why
american anime companies do not leverage japanese-style business
relationships to negotiate lower initial licensing fees (thereby
increasing the likelihood of profitable release) for popular (among fans)
titles.
#### (* quote *)
A personal relationship must be established before there is a business
partnership.
(* omit other comments *)
If I were in the entertainment business, this is what my strategy would
be. I would go to Japan and plan to spend at least three months just
circulating in the right circles. I would make my products available for
viewing. I would spend a lot of time talking philosophically about
cultural exchanges and why Americans like anime. I would wait for people
to come to me with ideas. I would build relationships based on the common
ground between my company and the Japanese. I would never for an instant
doubt that my venture would end in failure.
I know the opposing view. This is a cutthroat business. Profit margins
are small. We can't afford to send someone on a wild goose chase. All I
can say is that many people who have tried to do the safe thing have
failed. That's why I say, let's do the imaginative thing.
#### (*quote ends *)
reminds me of the bloom county cartoon where bedraggled teacher ruins a
junior ingenious ploy for saving the earth with an "ugly fact" (something
like that, sigh).
personally had a similar discussion with robert thompson at otakon 97. he
reminded me of the ugly fact: japanese do not accept gaijin who speak the
language freely. dealing in the language of the realm alienates the people
you are working with, whereas dealing through an interpreter plays into
the perception of a vast cultural divide.
long-term partnership obviates the problem, but *three months* cannot make
the grade today. three months may be fine for a japanese business seeking
welcome in a new community, but we can only imagine when this might be
workable for international licensing agreements.
for a more scholarly reference regarding the ethnocentric (or xenophobic)
aspects of japanese language use in japan, see lent, john a., editor,
*asian popular culture*, westview press, 1995.
sincerely, sean broderick
<no spam please: dire...@world.std.com>
bu anime/editor anime nation (boston-based fan magazine)
Joe Perez
On 21 Oct 1997 04:34:41 GMT, math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan Mathews)
wrote:
>In <01bcdc23$be5d8fa0$89ea77ce@john-blast> "John Sirabella"
><ki...@iac.net> writes:
>>
>>In addition the companies are making so much money in Japan that given
>>our limited sales they do not feel it is worth their while.
>
>Boy, that's not what I've been hearing. First off, deals like
>EVANGELION and GHOST IN THE SHELL have many Japanese companies hoping
>for "the big American score". They're holding back rights to their
>titles in hopes of getting a high price for one or two.
>
>Secondly, American money has saved at least two Japanese productions.
>PLASTIC LITTLE would never have been completed if ADV's money hadn't
>provided a cushion for their going over budget, and BURN-UP W was
>partially funded by ADV.
Add to this the fact that helping to save the Burn-Up OAVs kept the
series alive allowed it to become popular enough for a TV series to be
started. All this thanks to ADVs OAV-saving money cushion. This
example alone should open the eyes of japanese companies to the
positive side of partnerships with American companies
>All this comes from the mouths of representatives of AnimEigo, Viz, and
>ADVision at anime cons. I never miss an industry panel. It's amazing
>what you can learn.
Joe Perez
Philip Yff
In article <62hbd1$b...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, math...@ix.netcom.com
says...
>Boy, that's not what I've been hearing. First off, deals like
>EVANGELION and GHOST IN THE SHELL have many Japanese companies hoping
>for "the big American score". They're holding back rights to their
>titles in hopes of getting a high price for one or two.
>Secondly, American money has saved at least two Japanese productions.
>PLASTIC LITTLE would never have been completed if ADV's money hadn't
>provided a cushion for their going over budget, and BURN-UP W was
>partially funded by ADV.
You are absolutely correct. Kentaro Onizuka who runs the literal translation
series website posted an article some time ago about his experiences
at a convention. Among other things, he described talking to the creators
of Plastic Little. The discussion talked about the huge risks of
producing anime--most anime is not successful. The huge market successes
often overshadow the plight of the majority of projects that have a hard
time breaking even.
What I am suggesting is that the path to acquiring the huge successes runs
through a bunch of good but less successful productions. If we help the
industry as a whole, then we will have earned the right to share in its
treasures. If we follow a strategy of going only after the most popular
shows, then we can expect to pay through the nose for them. And we can
also expect to be treated with a distinct lack of respect because we have
not paid our dues.
Bruce Tomlin
In article <zednenem-201...@dmm264.rh.psu.edu>, zedn...@psu.edu
(Dave Menendez) wrote:
> In article <62d1j4$4...@drn.zippo.com>, Philip Yff <yf...@wizard.net> wrote:
>
> > If I were in the entertainment business, this is what my strategy would be.
> > I would go to Japan and plan to spend at least three months just
circulating
> > in the right circles. I would make my products available for viewing. I
> > would spend a lot of time talking philosophically about cultural exchanges
> > and why Americans like anime. I would wait for people to come to me with
> > ideas. I would build relationships based on the common ground between my
> > company and the Japanese. I would never for an instant doubt that my
> > venture would end in failure.
>
> Is that a typo? It doesn't seem worth it to go to all that trouble if you
> know you're going to fail....
Philip Yff and Sean Broderick have it right. This is Japan we are talking
about here. If you *don't* go to all that trouble, you *will* fail. If
you don't understand Japanese business culture, they'll just politely
ignore you, neither saying no nor saying yes. Going in like a bloody
yabanjin under the assumption that every anime has a "just sign here"
contract available is certain doom when doing business with the Japanese.
And it just might make them less willing to deal with the next guy who
*does* have a clue.
Philip Yff
In article <62jom9$o60$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, a...@spam-me-and-die.best.com
says...
[snip]
>>The financing is the easy part. The hard part is making the necessary
>>inroads and cultivating the right partnerships. :)
>Believe it or not, that would be the easy part if you had the financing.
>:) You seem to pooh-pooh the idea that money would be a barrier to
>operating the way you think things should be operated. Let me tell you:
>money is a barrier. If you don't agree, then I guess we're at a
>stalemate.
Money is always a barrier--I agree with you completely. The point is if
you do not have a solid concept and a cohesive plan no one will back you.
On the other hand, if you have a great concept, a strong implementation
plan, respected business partners, and a solid market in the States, there
are many financial institutions that would jump at the chance of giving
you backing--that's their mission in life--lend money to make money.
There are also many avenues of assistance for small businesses trying to
get out the starting gate.
Mata ato de,
Phil Yff
starting gate