You call Ranma and UY sexist show?
MinJae Sheen
> I actually had a similar discussion with a woman at a party. She had
> taken the stance that anime was sexist, and being the devil's advocate, I
> pointed out that Rumiko Takahashi who made Uresei Yatsura and Ranma 1/2
> was a woman. She rebutted by saying that just because the creator is a
> woman doesn't mean that she can't create sexist anime. I think UY is
> aimed at young men because I find it hard to get a woman to have any
> prolonged interest in UY anime.
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Sang J. Moon Email: sm...@clark.net |
> | DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent the views of the |
> | email provider. |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------+
I had to erase two of included massage cuz NNTP wouldn't send it.
I hate the contents of this typical bullshit argument with no
logic or evidence behind them.
First, who said Ranma 1/2 is a kids' Saturday morning cartoon?
Fuck! I don't even want to explain. Although it's not my favorite, it's
absolutely the most popular showing in my school's(not a primary school,
it is a university) Anime club right now.
If you don't believe me, check out
http://cec.wustl.edu/~jc8/html/voteall.html
Second, I'm fucking sick and tired of those whining female sexist who
claims
all female butt on every single movie is sexist thing.
Has it ever occured to them that there are male butts on many movies and
Anime? No males I know complain that male butts are shown by female
sexist. Taking shower scene is everyday life of everybody. Why should it
be
so wierd or so important? You posted Ranma as an example, there are many
male butts in the show. There are even panther butts. What the hell is
wrong with that? Takahashi Rumiko would be a Lesbian if Ranma is a sexist
show.
Third, I know more female UY fans then male UY fans. I didn't especially
like the show but some girls recommended me UY because they know I like
Anime.
I wanna say, STOP CALLING EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD "SEXIST" It comes from
inferior complex or dick envy.
JASON GRUNDY
MinJae Sheen <mj...@cec.wustl.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I actually had a similar discussion with a woman at a party. She had
>> taken the stance that anime was sexist, and being the devil's advocate, I
>> pointed out that Rumiko Takahashi who made Uresei Yatsura and Ranma 1/2
>> was a woman. She rebutted by saying that just because the creator is a
>> woman doesn't mean that she can't create sexist anime. I think UY is
>> aimed at young men because I find it hard to get a woman to have any
>> prolonged interest in UY anime.
>>
>> +--------------------------------------------------------------+
>> | Sang J. Moon Email: sm...@clark.net |
>> | DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent the views of the |
>> | email provider. |
>> +--------------------------------------------------------------+
>claims
>all female butt on every single movie is sexist thing.
Ummm. I'd agree it isn't a sexist thing, but it is a sex thing. It sells
movies, it sells comic books, it sells all forms of media. If Ranma turned
into a parrot, the show would have gone nowhere. But, RT is smart enough to
know that if she were to make the main character turn into a luscious chick...
He DOES seem to spend a lot of time in female form after all...
Some people confuse sex with sexist. Thats [hopefully only] their problem.
>Has it ever occured to them that there are male butts on many movies and
>Anime? No males I know complain that male butts are shown by female
>sexist. Taking shower scene is everyday life of everybody. Why should it
>be
>so wierd or so important? You posted Ranma as an example, there are many
>male butts in the show. There are even panther butts. What the hell is
>wrong with that? Takahashi Rumiko would be a Lesbian if Ranma is a sexist
>show.
Lesbian? Why? Because she knows what sells, and panders to it? Nope.
It is kinda funny all the people that have a problem with nudity. Do they
make sure they don't have mirrors in their bedrooms for fear of seeing a breast
or butt when they change? Silliness.
>Third, I know more female UY fans then male UY fans. I didn't especially
>like the show but some girls recommended me UY because they know I like
>Anime.
Maybe its because the female has the power, and the male is like any other
male, a despicable, lecherous twit. Errr... Sorry, don't know where that
came from.
Still, a babe in a tiger skin bikini floating around would sell it to most
males. It sure did me. LUM!!!! [I guess the comedy helped as well :]
>I wanna say, STOP CALLING EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD "SEXIST" It comes from
>inferior complex or dick envy.
Snigger. Probably not. Everyone wants power, at least in one form or
another, and to reasonable point. Sometimes things are sexist, but its a lot
rarer than people make it out to be. Partly because a lot of times something
isn't sexist [often its perfectly fair], but someone will call it that to get
or keep more power.
I find it hard to believe dick envy is rampant, no matter what Freud may
have liked to believe.
--
--------------
Jason Grundy
Arondell Hoch
>
>>
>> I actually had a similar discussion with a woman at a party. She had
>> taken the stance that anime was sexist, and being the devil's
advocate, I
>> pointed out that Rumiko Takahashi who made Uresei Yatsura and Ranma
1/2
>> was a woman. She rebutted by saying that just because the creator
is a
>> woman doesn't mean that she can't create sexist anime. I think UY
is
>> aimed at young men because I find it hard to get a woman to have any
>> prolonged interest in UY anime.
I find it difficult to believe this woman has seen a very wide range
of Japanese animation. How about "Ah! My Goddess!", "Kiki's Delivery
Service","Please Save My Earth", "The Tale of Genji","Patlabor",
"Vampire Princess Miyu",etc. She seems to have a created a stereotype
in her head of what Japanese animation is. Her rebuttal to your
example of Rumiko Takahashi seems to indicate to me that she has taken
a position and will defend it unto death. No matter how much evidence
you gather against it. You should also ask her what she means by
"sexist".
Arondell
aron...@ix.netcom.com
Douglas Jacobs
: I had to erase two of included massage cuz NNTP wouldn't send it.
: I hate the contents of this typical bullshit argument with no
: logic or evidence behind them.
: First, who said Ranma 1/2 is a kids' Saturday morning cartoon?
: Fuck! I don't even want to explain. Although it's not my favorite, it's
: absolutely the most popular showing in my school's(not a primary school,
: it is a university) Anime club right now.
: If you don't believe me, check out
: http://cec.wustl.edu/~jc8/html/voteall.html
As I've mentioned before, 'Saturday morning cartoon' is a bit of a misnomer
since kids in Japan go to school on Saturdays... However, Ranma 1/2 was
popular mostly with folks in jr. high and high school. American anime
clubs don't really give you a good idea of what's popular in Japan.
: Second, I'm fucking sick and tired of those whining female sexist who
: claims
: all female butt on every single movie is sexist thing.
: Has it ever occured to them that there are male butts on many movies and
: Anime? No males I know complain that male butts are shown by female
: sexist. Taking shower scene is everyday life of everybody. Why should it
: be
: so wierd or so important? You posted Ranma as an example, there are many
: male butts in the show. There are even panther butts. What the hell is
: wrong with that? Takahashi Rumiko would be a Lesbian if Ranma is a sexist
: show.
: Third, I know more female UY fans then male UY fans. I didn't especially
: like the show but some girls recommended me UY because they know I like
: Anime.
: I wanna say, STOP CALLING EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD "SEXIST" It comes from
: inferior complex or dick envy.
You know, you're almost as bad as the people you're attacking. Learn to
accept the fact that _no matter_ what, they'll always view the world as
being sexist, racist, or whatever conspiracy they happen to subscribe to.
Best to simply ignore them...allow them to have their opionions, and they'll
let you have yours.
MEL...@argonet.co.uk
»of Japanese animation. How about "Ah! My Goddess!",
Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
Mel-chan
--
|\ /| |¬¬ | |\ /| |¬|¬|¬ | | Now that my ginseng consumption has reached an
| | | |__ | | | | | | | |_| all-time high of 750mg a day, everything seems
| | | | | | | | | | | | | somehow... fluffier. Anyone like a cuddle?
| | | |__ |__ | | | |_| |_ | | Mel...@argonet.co.uk
Les
>晶I find it difficult to believe this woman has seen a very wide range
>晶of Japanese animation. How about "Ah! My Goddess!",
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
>Mel-chan
I can't quite agree with this. Belldandy is subserviant because she
wants to be (Urd found out what happens when Belldandy doesn't choose
to be so nice). Urd does whatever she wants in whatever way she wants,
and Skuld also pretty much determines her own actions. Of the entire
cast of main characters, the one most weak-willed is Keiichi. Sayoko
has the most complex personalities of the bunch (she opposes Belldandy,
but works according to her rules), but her brother is pretty much a
shallow degenerate.
Also, it is usually the women who determine the course of events. It
is Belldandy who finds a new home for Keiichi and herself after his
rash decision gets him kicked out of his dorm. It is Urd who dictates
the pace in OVA2, Skuld in OVA3, and all three goddesses in OVA's 4
and 5. Keiichi's strongest characteristic is not any ability to
change the situation, but to adapt to it in the best way he can.
This reminds me of a statement Frank Miller made a long while back
(I paraphrase) "...to get the hard-core, extreme feminist contingent
mad, all I had to do was write a female character. If she is dominent,
they'll say is a man with boobs. If submissive or secondary, they'll
say I'm enforcing a stereotype..."
--
Rebel, n. A proponent of a new misrule who has failed to establish it.
--Ambrose Bierce
Douglas Jacobs
: 晶I find it difficult to believe this woman has seen a very wide range
: 晶of Japanese animation. How about "Ah! My Goddess!",
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
What's wrong with "Ah! My Goddess!"? The fact that Belldandy is making
herself utterly subservient to Keichi? If Keichi were female, and Belldandy
was male, but the story was the same (with male Belldandy serving female
Keichi), would it still be sexist?
Actually, I would imagine an animated 'Tale of Genji' would be extremely
sexist to modern Western society....but that's the way that era of Japanese
society operated.
Sigurdur Hrafn Gislason
: claims
: all female butt on every single movie is sexist thing.
: Has it ever occured to them that there are male butts on many movies and
: Anime? No males I know complain that male butts are shown by female
: sexist. Taking shower scene is everyday life of everybody.
O.k. time to get real for a minute. I am not a fan of Anime but I have a
couple of friends who have thrust their videos on me and I have watched
out of sheer curiousity, simply to see what all the hoopla is about.
Let愀 see, I have seen:
Dominion Tank Police
Project A-ko
Akira (of course)
3x3
and some others which I just don愒 remember the names of.
How can anybody who has seen these movies refuse that there is a great
tendency to highlight the young nubile bodies of the heroines? I refer
mostly to Dominion and Project A-ko. The fight scenes were choreographed
to enhance every crotch-butt-cleavage shot available. How about the
outfit of B-ko? This is sexism.
On the other hand there are movies which absolutely do not sell out, or
at least not as obviously. Akira was great.
Znugget
--
B.C. Dictionary: cheap
- The entire vocabulary of a low priced parrot.
Eric T. Dorn
Rumiko is a woman, She is Goddess Takahashi,
She is a WOMAN in the sexist nation of JAPAN,
^^^^^
She can do what she pleases, she should be an inspiration,
She is world famous and loved by millions of fans.
Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
-Roadbuster
Knight of the Black Rose
>> aimed at young men because I find it hard to get a woman to have any
>> prolonged interest in UY anime.
I have not encountered that problem.
Follows my typical repsonse to all this sexist garbage:
I am a sexist pig nazi skinhead democrat eskimo, and I like it!
So there! Ha! :P
Of course,
If something is actually sexist I might agree with that person.
--
--I--am--- \ / I just content myself dancing to the \ /
Darksphere (|) laughter of gods on fire (|)
----------
Soaring to the sun <> Dirty Pair * Ranma * Nadia * U.Y. * M.I.
With blood upon my wings <> * Lady Death * Gold Digger * Razor * Shi
Darkworld / Grandis / Ran / Etc: http://miavx1.muohio.edu/~aefigueroa/
Douglas Jacobs
: : Second, I'm fucking sick and tired of those whining female sexist who
There's just one small problem...Project Ako is a spoof about anime. This
is why there's all those gratuitous close-ups and what not. I can't really
call Project Ako sexist because its merely poking fun at a genre.
I won't say there isn't sexist anime out there, but I also won't call
every show that features a female character in it sexist either.
David Aldridge
> Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
When you think about it, UY really is sexist... against guys. Look at how
laughable Ataru is, the vainness of Mendou, and how the other guys act
around Lum. If I was the type who was constantly looking for an excuse
not to enjoy something, I could call this show sexist and whine about the
unfair portrayal of men.
Douglas Jacobs
: In article <4a7d95$6...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
: Douglas Jacobs <dja...@umich.edu> wrote:
: >: Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
: >herself utterly subservient to Keichi?
: Right.
I still have trouble saying AMG is sexist because of this...
For one thing, its not the product of my society or culture. If Disney were
to have produced AMG, that'd be different.
Second, given the context of society, Belldandy is simply doing her best to
be the ideal girlfriend to Keichi...is it sexist, or merely a difference in
between cultures about what the ideal SO is?
: >If Keichi were female, and Belldandy
: >was male, but the story was the same (with male Belldandy serving female
: >Keichi), would it still be sexist?
: Since there's no stereotype of subservient males to which that variation would
: pander, it wouldn't be sexist. But for the exact same reason, it wouldn't
: be _made_.
Darn...I would think "Oh my god!" would be popular among the women in Japan ;)
Guess that means there'll be no "Video Boy" story either, eh? ;)
: Though I think part of the problem is that the anime tries to compress several
: volumes worth of manga into a few hours.
A fair point. I haven't read the manga. Are there any significant
differences between the OAV & the manga?
Ken Arromdee
Douglas Jacobs <dja...@umich.edu> wrote:
>: Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
>What's wrong with "Ah! My Goddess!"? The fact that Belldandy is making
>herself utterly subservient to Keichi?
Right.
>If Keichi were female, and Belldandy
>was male, but the story was the same (with male Belldandy serving female
>Keichi), would it still be sexist?
Since there's no stereotype of subservient males to which that variation would
pander, it wouldn't be sexist. But for the exact same reason, it wouldn't
be _made_.
Though I think part of the problem is that the anime tries to compress several
volumes worth of manga into a few hours.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"Any creature who would disguise itself as a bone, obviously has no sense of
fair play!" -- Superboy Annual #1
peter lane
Isn't that the majority of anime romantic/comedies? The guys are
perverts, the girls are georgous, throw in a otherworldly aspect, couple
goof ball characters to sharpen the fact the guys are idiots and the
girls are beautiful, and there you have it! You just got to love them
though!!!!! ^_^
Pete
Douglas Jacobs
: Eric T. Dorn (eric...@omnifest.uwm.edu) writes:
: > Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
: When you think about it, UY really is sexist... against guys. Look at how
: laughable Ataru is, the vainness of Mendou, and how the other guys act
: around Lum. If I was the type who was constantly looking for an excuse
: not to enjoy something, I could call this show sexist and whine about the
: unfair portrayal of men.
*pin pon pin pon*
I think that's one of the central themes in UY. I think UY is an attempt
by Ms. Takahashi to show how stupid men can be and delivers it in a pretty
tiger-stripped bikini wrapper. You'll notice that only competent and
authoritarian characters are female (or not human).
In short, she's telling us that men are scum...but women like us anyways. ;)
Doug (who doesn't think he's scum...)
Tzehua Tung
forget the difficulties in the real world? Look at what you guys are
doing...trying to bring the real world values into the world of
manga/anime....
So what if a manga is sexist? I personally haven't noticed anything
sexist in Ranma & UY mangas. If the attention paid to female traits is
sexist and unwelcome, the human race would probably be extinct by now,
right?
By the way, I'm a girl so don't fire all those big-man-ego or whatsoever
theories at me. (You can probably call me insensetive, though...)
M.Ba...@greenwich.ac.uk
> >I find it difficult to believe this woman has seen a very wide range
> >of Japanese animation. How about "Ah! My Goddess!",
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
Damn right it is. All the guys are incompetent fools and all the women have
superhuman powers. :-)
Matt Barber (M.Ba...@gre.ac.uk)
Rial Fletcher
a silly geejar:
The real dilemma here is this:
Ranma 1/2 is sexist.
Takahashi (a woman) is perfectly capable of creating sexist anime, and
does quite often, but that is not all she does.(rumic world, for
instance)
...
the problem stems from not having a word meaning: Illustrative, or
based upon the differences between the male and female sexes.
the word does not exist, because there is supposedly no
differencebetween these sexes, other than genderequipment.
thus anything that illustrates these dfferencesand uses them for the
purpose of humor, or drama, or whatever, is labeled stereotypical...
and of course, stereotypes are the basis of all entertainment... te
secret is revealing them in a way that encourages people to laugh at
themselves... and not hurt them... this is not a problem that is
specific to any aspect of our culture... it is something that stems
from the consant state of the human race.. for thousands of years
women were regarded as inferior due to their comparative phsical
weakness... now they are considered exactly alike, which is not so...
similar dilemmas can be found in the arenas ofracism and such...
america was supposed to be a melting pot... too many people insist on
treating it like a blender.
"Shame on you. Selling out your own daughter for an order of Eel
Teriyaki" - Akane
"Hey! i have at *least* as good a sense of direction as Ryouga!" - Rial
"Oh God." - Correct response to anything said by Rial
Mark Mark
(Ken Arromdee) says:
>Douglas Jacobs <dja...@umich.edu> wrote:
>>: Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
>>What's wrong with "Ah! My Goddess!"? The fact that Belldandy is making
>>herself utterly subservient to Keichi?
>Right.
Which neglects the way in which all the other female characters are _not_
subservient to anyone in particular. And, in fact, tend to be a lot more
intelligent and capable than the male characters (I don't see Tamiya and
Otaki as especially impressive role models...) One can reasonably conclude
the reason Belldandy is written as a subservient character is because
that is what she's supposed to be _like_ -- not because of a sexist
culture. And even that aspect is in the background of the story most of
the time, not the foreground.
A lot of anime can be validly charged with sexism, but I don't think the
accusation sticks with A!MG. At least unless it changes a _heck_ of
a lot as the manga goes on...
--
I've gone to build the Supercollider.
<*> mbs...@psuvm.psu.edu: Mark Sachs, Itinerant Graphicist and Webmaster <*>
The Pennsylvania State Data Center Home Page! http://www.hbg.psu.edu/psdc/
JRDelirious
Urusei Yatsura - sexist???? A series in which virtually every
single important *male* character is an absolute *FOOL*? ... Oh,
but I see -- never mind that the women are the only ones thinking
beyond immediate gratification, or aware of the consequences of
actions, or who know what they want and what to do about it, or
who hold a great deal of power over the boys' lives: it's all
sexist because (a) the way they dress and (b) some actually
*want* to have these men in their lives. I guess these people
would have ended the series about ep. 1, with Lum (dressed
in baggy dungarees) killing Moroboshi with a full-lethal-force
zap the instant he touched her.
Oy!
--
-JRDelirious, San Juan, Puerto Rico, US (well, kindof) Caribbean-
--7511...@compuserve.com--The Unknown Government Technocrat---
--Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, y'know?--
David Aldridge
peter lane (pl...@ub.d.umn.edu) writes:
> : > Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
>
> : When you think about it, UY really is sexist... against guys. Look at how
> : laughable Ataru is, the vainness of Mendou, and how the other guys act
> : around Lum. If I was the type who was constantly looking for an excuse
> : not to enjoy something, I could call this show sexist and whine about the
> : unfair portrayal of men.
>
> perverts, the girls are georgous, throw in a otherworldly aspect, couple
> goof ball characters to sharpen the fact the guys are idiots and the
> girls are beautiful, and there you have it! You just got to love them
> though!!!!! ^_^
That's exactly my point. I think this thread started out with someone
mentioning a conversation they had with someone who insisted that all
anime was sexist against women. When titles like Ranma and UY were
brought up, the "all anime is sexist against women" person said that those
titles were examples that proved her point.
As a fellow idiot I don't mind anime a bit. :)
Enrique Conty
>
>Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
UY *is* sexist, at first glance. Lots of well-endowed girls
running around in either body-hugging outfits or swimwear.
But when you start thinking about it, you realize how Takahashi is bending
the stereotypes of the genre around. UY women are not rebellious girls
who get "put in their place" at the end of the story. These are *powerful*
females, who flaunt their power as much as their bodies. The guys, on the
other hand, are self-important fools who have to be taught a lesson by the
girls...
Ranma... well, I'm not much of a Ranma fan, so I'll stop before I put my
foot in my mouth.
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Watch Key The Metal Idol! | 3DO games for sale! | Watch Evangelion!
Want to see Giant Robo subbed? Write to ma...@manga.com!
NuVista+ Mac genlock/video capture board for sale, $1000.
PsychoKick
>
>In article <4a801v$7...@omnifest.uwm.edu> eric...@omnifest.uwm.edu (Eric
T. Dorn) writes:
>>
>>Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
>
>UY *is* sexist, at first glance. Lots of well-endowed girls
>running around in either body-hugging outfits or swimwear.
>
>But when you start thinking about it, you realize how Takahashi is
>bending the stereotypes of the genre around. UY women are not rebellious
>girls who get "put in their place" at the end of the story. These are
>*powerful* females, who flaunt their power as much as their bodies. The
>guys, on the other hand, are self-important fools who have to be taught a
>lesson by the girls...
Usually rather painfully :) Lum's electric shock and Shinobu's
flying furniture o' doom come to mind... among many others.
-PsychoKick
Tomar
>晶of Japanese animation. How about "Ah! My Goddess!",
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
If you are refering to the seemingly subserviant attitude that
Belldandy has, then that's only sexists if Belldandy is feeling
repressed and wants something more in her life. You see, some people
like living a life where all they do is help another. There is
nothing wrong with this. If the person happens to be female, then
other people try to step in and "help her out" by accusing
people of being sexist. By suggesting "Ah! My Godess!" is sexists
because of Belldandy's attitude, then you are trying to create a
problem that doesn't really exists.
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu
The Return: <http://helser14.res.iastate.edu/tomar/anime/anime.html>
<http://129.186.76.14/tomar/anime/anime.html>
General observation about Anime...
"Cuteness will prevail...Oh yes it WILL!!!"
Dennis Orr
stupid in UY. YOU'RE RIGHT except for Mendou(he's just egotistical) and
Ten(a little kid) all the guys are pretty much stupid idiots with no
morals!!!! I remember a quote from the UY 2:Beautiful Dreamer Movie when
Sakura tells Mendou "Looks like you're the only intellegent one left"(See
movie). As for Ranma the only real stupid guys are Genma, Kuno, and
Happosai!!! All the other males are mostly normal or just weird!!!
DO
Caroline Ann Seawright
I totally agree with you. I don't really know what is sexist about all
of this stuff, though I guess people do see girls dressing up in sexy
outfits as sexist... but girls do that by themselves, RL, not guys forcing
them at gunpoint to do it. *shrug* It's wierd, all this over-the-top
feminist stuff.
Kun-chan...
David L Burkhead
[ 8< UY women "showing their power" >8 ]
>
> Usually rather painfully :) Lum's electric shock and Shinobu's
>flying furniture o' doom come to mind... among many others.
Isn't it interesting that no one comes screaming out of the
woodwork in protest to Ataru being trapped in an abusive relationship,
where he is both physically and emotionally abused. If the sexes were
reversed, we'd see every feminist in the country up in arms.
Sexist? You bet. It just happens the sexist gun is pointed in
the other direction.
David L. Burkhead
r3d...@dax.cc.uakron.edu
d.l....@ix.netcom.com
PsychoKick
>
>In article <4af8m5$q...@news.iastate.edu>, Tomar <to...@iastate.edu>
wrote:>[Megamisama]
>>>Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
>>If you are refering to the seemingly subserviant attitude that
>>Belldandy has, then that's only sexists if Belldandy is feeling
>
>Honestly, I fail to see how Belldandy could have been anything OTHER than
>unfailingly polite, subservient, and ultra-demure. Think about this:
>she's a GODDESS. A god or goddess is, in a mythological sense, the
>ultimate personification of a particular virtue or vice: the purest
>essence of a concept. Belldandy is the goddess of the Home. Of COURSE
>she acts like that -- what were you expecting? It's in her job
>description ^_^
>
>(Besides, if you look at the manga, you'll see that she's not really so
> "demure" as the anime portrays her to be. More like a punk-grrl-goddess
>:)
True. I like the manga much more, because the characters are less
watered-down and act more interesting. In the anime, almost the entire
OMG cast seems to suffer a kind of "Kasumi Tendo" illness or something. I
wish the anime Skuld would chuck those cute little bombs of hers more
often like her manga counterpart. :)
-PsychoKick
Enrique Conty
>
>Honestly, I fail to see how Belldandy could have been anything OTHER than
>unfailingly polite, subservient, and ultra-demure.
Read the manga.
Gautama Buddha
wisdom gushes from Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com>'s fingers:
>Read the manga.
Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
verbose, Conty? I think I see why people are starting to drop you into
their killfiles ...
--
| DBZLF/DRA: Dragonball Z Liberation Front/Dubbing Resistance Army /-/\-\
| Dragonball Hunter Rockear | suk...@netcom.com | Trunks@AnimeMUCK /-/--\-\
| "Don't be mean ... the fates are cruel enough." -- BB, MD, PhD /-/----\-\
-`- -'-
Gautama Buddha
>In article <internews...@argonet.co.uk>, <MEL...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
[Megamisama]
>>Except that this is one of the most sexist anime ever made, of course.
>If you are refering to the seemingly subserviant attitude that
>Belldandy has, then that's only sexists if Belldandy is feeling
>repressed and wants something more in her life. [...]
Honestly, I fail to see how Belldandy could have been anything OTHER than
unfailingly polite, subservient, and ultra-demure. Think about this: she's
a GODDESS. A god or goddess is, in a mythological sense, the ultimate
personification of a particular virtue or vice: the purest essence of a
concept. Belldandy is the goddess of the Home. Of COURSE she acts like
that -- what were you expecting? It's in her job description ^_^
(Besides, if you look at the manga, you'll see that she's not really so
"demure" as the anime portrays her to be. More like a punk-grrl-goddess :)
--
Enrique Conty
>Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
>verbose, Conty?
Why? The point got across, and I'm not Carl Horn.
Enrique Conty
>
>I've been reading this debate and people are saying all the guys are
>stupid in UY.
Mrs. Moroboshi raised no fool. Ataru may be a cad, and obsessed with girls,
but he's not stupid.
No, what I mean here is that most of the male cast of UY let their own
follies lead them into foolishness, and it's up to the females to set them
straight, by force if neccesary. Take a stereotype and turn it over with
a good whack to the head.
Roy Rim
is sexist in general cause everything thats being brought into America is
stuff that the distributers think are going to sell in America (i.e. tits
and violence.) Of course thats what makes things sell in most countries
but I'd definitely would like to force some people to watch Grave of the
Fireflies and some other cool films.
RR [Geen no Baka]
Douglas Jacobs
: In article <4ahm8v$9...@newdelph.cig.mot.com>,: >Read the manga.
: Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
: verbose, Conty? I think I see why people are starting to drop you into
: their killfiles ...
You cut out some important context from that post...here's the whole
thing:
--Begin quote of article--
In article <sukebeDJ...@netcom.com> suk...@netcom.com (Gautama Buddha) writes:
>
>Honestly, I fail to see how Belldandy could have been anything OTHER than
>unfailingly polite, subservient, and ultra-demure.
Read the manga.
--End quote of article--
Why say more than is needed?
(Either that, or our dear Conty is a Vorlon ^_^)
Eric Hodges
eric...@omnifest.uwm.edu (Eric T. Dorn) wrote:
>When I begin to think this I just remember:
>
>Rumiko is a woman, She is Goddess Takahashi,
>She is a WOMAN in the sexist nation of JAPAN,
> ^^^^^
>She can do what she pleases, she should be an inspiration,
>She is world famous and loved by millions of fans.
>
>
>Then tell me Ranma and LUM*UY are sexist.
OK, Ranma and Urusei Yatsura are sexist.
They are some of my favorite shows, but I still find them sexist. They
reflect a deep sexism in Japanese culture. One of the central themes of UY is
that men are scum, and therefore not responsible for their actions. The women
around them have to accept this because the only hope they have of happiness
is to get married to one of these lame men.
I'd love to see a UY where Lum snaps out of it and realizes Ataru has nothing
to offer her.
--
The views expressed in this post are entirely mine and have no connection to TeleCheck, Inc.
Ryo-oh-ki
Eric Hodges <hod...@telecheck.com> wrote:
:In article <4a801v$7...@omnifest.uwm.edu>,:
:OK, Ranma and Urusei Yatsura are sexist.
:
:They are some of my favorite shows, but I still find them sexist. They
:reflect a deep sexism in Japanese culture. One of the central themes of UY is
:that men are scum, and therefore not responsible for their actions. The women
Men are foolish. Not all men are scum --- and vice versa.
:around them have to accept this because the only hope they have of happiness
:is to get married to one of these lame men.
If you think that the theme of UY is "happiness through marraige",
then you don't understand what UY is all about.
:I'd love to see a UY where Lum snaps out of it and realizes Ataru has nothing
:to offer her.
Lum isn't the the kindest, gentlest, meekest, or sweetest of all the
female crowd either. Yet she is pursued vigorously by almost every
member of the male cast.
Except Ataru.
___/^_^\___ Eugene Lee Ryo-oh-ki Muyo! Tenchi
zan...@netcom.com
Enrique Conty
> Isn't it interesting that no one comes screaming out of the
>woodwork in protest to Ataru being trapped in an abusive relationship,
>where he is both physically and emotionally abused.
Ah, but in this case Ataru *deserves* the misfortune that falls his way.
Note in just how many episodes Ataru gets into trouble because he acted
on his impulses instead of his brains...
Mike Breen
>How can anybody who has seen these movies refuse that there is a great
>tendency to highlight the young nubile bodies of the heroines? I refer
>mostly to Dominion and Project A-ko. The fight scenes were choreographed
>to enhance every crotch-butt-cleavage shot available. How about the
>outfit of B-ko? This is sexism.
But the magazine cover when Braveheart was released that proudly declared
"MEL GIBSON WITHOUT PANTS" _wasn't_ sexist? What about all those Mel 'his
butt is so sexy' Gibson articlestargeted at women? How 'bout Kevin
Costner's "butt shot" in "Robin Hood?" Aren't these sexist? Maybe I'm
missing the old double standard yet again. That's right. All men are
sexist, but no woman in the world is sexist. That's right. I'm sorry. I
forgot.
---Mike (THIS SPACE UNDER CONSTRUCTION)
Check out the Other Days home page at http://www1.usa1.com/~mikeb/odays.html
James Nicoll
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>In article <4ahghh$h...@kira.cc.uakron.edu> r3d...@dax.cc.uakron.edu (David L Burkhead ) writes:
>> Isn't it interesting that no one comes screaming out of the
>>woodwork in protest to Ataru being trapped in an abusive relationship,
>>where he is both physically and emotionally abused.
>
>Ah, but in this case Ataru *deserves* the misfortune that falls his way.
>Note in just how many episodes Ataru gets into trouble because he acted
>on his impulses instead of his brains...
Heh. In _Beautiful Dreamer_ I got the impression that when
Ataru says he doesn't care about consequences, he is *proud* of that
aspect of his personality.
James Nicoll
--
"No ball team wants a dead or paralyzed critter for its mascot."
Danny Boles, in _Brittle Innings_ by Michael Bishop
Enrique Conty
>
>(Either that, or our dear Conty is a Vorlon ^_^)
I've been taking lessons. ^_^;
Crawling back into his enviromental suit, tongue-equivalent firmly planted
on cheek-equivalent, this was...
Gautama Buddha
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>>>Read the manga.
>>Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
>>verbose, Conty?
I hate to tell you this, but no -- it didn't. I still don't have any idea
why you wasted 700 bytes to dismiss my opinion with three words. If you're
going to pull that kind of a stunt, the least I want is an explanation.
>and I'm not Carl Horn.
You sure ain't.
Douglas Jacobs
: In article <4aiuuu$f...@newdelph.cig.mot.com>,
: Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
: >>>Read the manga.
: >>Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
: >>verbose, Conty?
: >Why? The point got across,
: I hate to tell you this, but no -- it didn't. I still don't have any idea
: why you wasted 700 bytes to dismiss my opinion with three words. If you're
: going to pull that kind of a stunt, the least I want is an explanation.
I dunno...you seem to be in the minority here. Conty's original post
had enough context and his response was short and to the point. Someone
stated they couldn't imagine Belldandy being anything but the way she is in
the anime. Conty's statement to read the manga would imply that there's
considerable difference between the anime & manga in regards to Belldandy's
character. Did you need him to say all that? Or, did you want explicit,
detailed examples? Surely you're not the type that relies on Usenet posts
as a replacement for real world experiences such as reading.
Richard W. Walker
: I'd rather have a concise, grammatically correct statement than a
: stream-of-consciousness exercise in adjective abuse. Pretentiousness says
: more about the lack of content in a post than it does about content proper.
:
: -----
: Douglas L. Erickson - CS/English Major and ECN Stoogeboy
Hey! Now don't you know that what we are really engaged in is a
systematic, thorough, and completely interesting and unuseful, but
occassionally entertaining, willful destruction of the
English language? After all, this is email and I can type 60 words
a minute, so why say it in 10 words, when a 1000 will do!
--
"My sister tends to think the end justifies the means;
But then she gets so wrapped up in the means, she forgets
what the end was!"
- Kosuke Fujishima's "Oh my Goddess" [Japanese Manga]
Doug Erickson
>In article <sukebeDJ...@netcom.com> suk...@netcom.com (Gautama Buddha) writes:
>>
>>>Read the manga.
>>Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
>>verbose, Conty?
>Why? The point got across, and I'm not Carl Horn.
You're missing the point. :) What Mr. Buddha wishes is that you
couch all future responses to him in flowery euphemism and metaphor, so
he can delude himself into taking you out of context as often as possible
for purposes his ego only knows. :)
I'd rather have a concise, grammatically correct statement than a
stream-of-consciousness exercise in adjective abuse. Pretentiousness says
more about the lack of content in a post than it does about content proper.
-----
Douglas L. Erickson - CS/English Major and ECN Stoogeboy
Mail: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu URL: http:\\www.ecn.ou.edu\~douglas
Disclaimer: ECN does not endorse the rabid blathering I call my opinions.
Liquid seeps into your lungs, but your eyes look so serene...
Enrique Conty
>>>Think you could find it within yourself to be just a TEENSY bit more
>>>verbose, Conty?
>>Why? The point got across,
>
Oh.
Well, in the manga Belldandy has more spine than the living
floormat she is in the anime. She's still gentle and kind and
what not, but she can get angry, and take action when need be.
I like her better this way.
Anything else I should explain? ^_^
Gautama Buddha
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>In article <sukebeDJ...@netcom.com> suk...@netcom.com (Gautama Buddha) writes:
Well, people are starting to jump on me, so it seems like you continue to
be the sacred cow of RAA. :P Doesn't mean I still don't think I have a bone
to pick with you.
>>I hate to tell you this, but no -- it didn't.
>Oh.
>Well, in the manga Belldandy has more spine than the living
>floormat she is in the anime. She's still gentle and kind and
>what not, but she can get angry, and take action when need be.
(Didn't I say this, in as many words? The second paragraph, not the first.)
>I like her better this way.
In humans, Kasumi-behavior DOES get tiresome pretty quickly. But it
strikes me as perfectly logical that, as the goddess of her position, she
should play the perfect-homemaker role to the hilt. She's *not human*.
Acting as if she were sounds a bit false.
>Anything else I should explain? ^_^
Yeah. Was that "Read the manga" quote directed at me, or at the world in
general? If you weren't trying to tear me down, then sorry, my mistake.
But I'm not going to stop defending myself because other people think
you're Kami's Gift to the net.
Enrique Conty
>
>In article <4as91a$5...@newdelph.cig.mot.com>,
>Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>>In article <sukebeDJ...@netcom.com> suk...@netcom.com (Gautama Buddha) writes:
>
>Well, people are starting to jump on me, so it seems like you continue to
>be the sacred cow of RAA.
No, no, you have a point. If you didn't understand my reply, I should have
spelled things out for you. My bad.
>>Anything else I should explain? ^_^
>Was that "Read the manga" quote directed at me,
>or at the world in general?
At you, and at everyone else reading. Simply put, the OMG manga is much
better than the anime. (IMO, natch...)
Gautama Buddha
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>>Was that "Read the manga" quote directed at me, or at the world in
>>general?
>At you, and at everyone else reading. Simply put, the OMG manga is much
>better than the anime. (IMO, natch...)
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. OK, general misunderstanding. My sincere apologies
for taking it the wrong way. We can all be friends again now :)
Blade
>couple of friends who have thrust their videos on me and I have watched
>out of sheer curiousity, simply to see what all the hoopla is about.
>Let愀 see, I have seen:
>Dominion Tank Police
>Project A-ko
>Akira (of course)
>3x3
>and some others which I just don愒 remember the names of.
>
>How can anybody who has seen these movies refuse that there is a great
>tendency to highlight the young nubile bodies of the heroines? I refer
>mostly to Dominion and Project A-ko. The fight scenes were choreographed
>to enhance every crotch-butt-cleavage shot available. How about the
>outfit of B-ko? This is sexism.
>
>at least not as obviously. Akira was great.
>
>Znugget
I'll admit that ther _is_ a lot of that in Dominion and A-ko, but I don't
think you've seen enough anime to justify calling it sexism. At least
not in A-ko, for, in my personal opinion, I consider Dominion crap.
However, one of the major attractions of the A-ko series is that it makes
fun of other animes. I would wager that the fan-service shots of A-ko
getting dressed and B-ko in the bath are at least partly devoted towards
that. And I might be prejudiced here, but because of the fact that the
fight between A-ko and B-ko is one of the best fight scenes in anime, I
wasn't really concerned about what might have been shown. I didn't see
anything pornographic in it, but then again, I didn't go through it frame
by frame looking, so I might have missed something...however, if I have
to go through frame by frame to find it, then I'd hardly be concerned
anyway. As for sexism, I don't think A-ko is very sexist at all. Sure,
there was B-ko's suit. That doesn't preclude the fact that 99% of the
cast of the movie was female, and the only woman I saw that was as
good-looking as B-ko was...B-ko. A-ko is realistically built for a 16
year old, and as for C-ko...well, anyone who got a charge out of her gets
the Happy Award For Hentaism. I won't even talk about D. The point is,
just because _one_ woman in the movie runs around indecently-although she
does so for less than half the movie-does not mean that it's sexist.
This particularly holds true when there isn't a single guy in the movie
that does anything important whatsoever. Now, if some guy had come along
and saved the day, with the girls only being around to show off their
assets, _that_ would be sexist. The movie, as it stands, is not, and
when shown, I've actually found theat girls tended to like it more than
guys did. One more thing, though I may get flamed for this...Akira?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I may have offended some people with
that, but let's face it...super animation, when hampered with a confusing
plot and boring characters, does not make a good movie. In addition, I'd
just like to point out that Akira is a wonderful example of a movie where
almost every single role is played by a male. The one important girl(the
rebel, I forget her name), doesn't even really do anything. All she
does, as I recall, is hang around and get rescued by Kaneda-twice, even!
Blade
"The world...is a dark and lonely place..."-Ryouga
Douglas Jacobs
: guys did. One more thing, though I may get flamed for this...Akira?
: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I may have offended some people with
: that, but let's face it...super animation, when hampered with a confusing
: plot and boring characters, does not make a good movie. In addition, I'd
: just like to point out that Akira is a wonderful example of a movie where
: almost every single role is played by a male. The one important girl(the
: rebel, I forget her name), doesn't even really do anything. All she
: does, as I recall, is hang around and get rescued by Kaneda-twice, even!
Akira the anime condenses some 6 thick volumes of manga into 2+ hrs. I
like to call it the 'Dune' of anime. Dune the novel was _wonderful_.
Dune the movie, while "ok" for folks who hadn't read Dune, left most who had
feeling gypped due to all the omissions.
Try the Akira manga. Kei (the rebel who's name you forgot), does a lot
more than just hang around.
I don't think I'd call Akira sexist...sure, some of the characters aren't
exactly the fine up-standing hero-types you see in most works...perhaps
that's one reason why I like it.
The Whispering Shade
Welcome! to the Other Side!
Ok. I admit it. There is a lot of sexism in anime. Then again
this is a culture that a hundred years ago deformed womens feet so
they couldn't run away. Enough of that. However, you are looking
at a small collection and from an outsiders view. Take the time to
view some recomended anime. If you view a wide enough selection
your going to find that there are different catagories of anime.
Hentai => naughy bits to down right perversion. Usual telltale
signs: Nasty Tentacle Sex (if ya gotta ask... DON'T); Bondage
sequenses; ect. Examples: Legend of the Overfiend; Twin Dolls;
Anything by SoftCell or Pink Pinaple Productions.
Little boy anime => named such because the mojority of characters
are or resemble young men. Anime where the lead character is male
of 14 - 18 or a masculine femme. Usual telltale signs: Lead women
will generally have small breasts, barley perceptible hips and
waist, and a muscular build (body by Sigourney Weaver). Lead males
will be boyish, usually at some point in time be naked from the
waist up (to better show off the musculature). Either male or
female, the character will usually have several flaws in character
that the story is based around (Ranma's Pride, Duunan's inexperiance
and temper, ect.). Examples: Ranma 1/2; Appleseed (the manga will
be easier to follow as the anime is a poor compilation of four books
into one 45 min episode); Speed Racer.
Romantic Comedy => Examples: Tenchii Muyo; Ah! My Goddess; Lum
(notice Lum wears a tiger striped bikinni throught the movie, yet I
wouldn't call it either sexist, or revealing for that matter).
Action/Adventure => Examples: Bean Bandit; GunSmith Cats (not out
yet).
Horror/Adventure/Drama => Examples: Vimpire Hunter D; Ninja Scroll.
Drama => Macross Plus.
*Note: Ranma1/2, Tenchii Muyo, Ah! My Goddess, Lum and Speed Racer
aside I would recomend none of these for children of unsuitible age.
Unsuitible age is any child who is not capable of understand plot
twists, graphic violence and/or full frontal nudity. In the cases
of frontal nudity anything in the Hentai section will have graphic
sex, Ninja Scroll has full frontal nudity and graphic sex, but it is
to further advance the story, not for gratuitus sex's sake.
There are as many catagories as there are live action movies. You
may also find that while it seems that there is the obligatory
cheesecake in just about all of the anime, you will find that this
is true for the Japanese television as well. The obligitory shower
scene is common to everything from anime to soap operas to perfume
comercials.
Don't dismiss it yet, you still have much to see.
Arondell Hoch
>>O.k. time to get real for a minute. I am not a fan of Anime but I have a
>>couple of friends who have thrust their videos on me and I have watched
>>out of sheer curiousity, simply to see what all the hoopla is about.
>>Let愀 see, I have seen:
>>Dominion Tank Police
>>Project A-ko
>>Akira (of course)
>>3x3
>>and some others which I just don愒 remember the names of.
>>
>>How can anybody who has seen these movies refuse that there is a
great
>>tendency to highlight the young nubile bodies of the heroines? I
refer
>>mostly to Dominion and Project A-ko. The fight scenes were
choreographed
>>to enhance every crotch-butt-cleavage shot available. How about the
>>outfit of B-ko? This is sexism.
If you took ANYTHING in project A-ko seriously you missed the point.
It was pretty much a parody of japanese animation up to that point.
B-ko's combat suit was meant to be a joke. Remember that all the
characters initial reaction to it was. Get real! That looks
ridiculous! Aren't you cold in that?
Arondell
aron...@ix.netcom.com
Arondell Hoch
(Douglas Jacobs) writes:
>
>Akira the anime condenses some 6 thick volumes of manga into 2+ hrs.
I
>like to call it the 'Dune' of anime. Dune the novel was _wonderful_.
>Dune the movie, while "ok" for folks who hadn't read Dune, left most
who had
>feeling gypped due to all the omissions.
>
Another thing you must consider is that Dune was originally six(6)
hours long. The studio took one look at the final product and
immediatly decided to chop off over 3 hours of footage. That was one
of the reasons it was such a big flop.
Arondell
aron...@ix.netcom.com
Pedro Colman
<Shawn_M...@GlobalVillag.com> writes:
>
>And now, it's another issue of:
>Welcome! to the Other Side!
>
>Ok. I admit it. There is a lot of sexism in anime. Then again
>this is a culture that a hundred years ago deformed womens feet so
>they couldn't run away. Enough of that. However, you are looking
-cut-
That's the wrong culture you're talking about there. Japanese
culture, while definitely sexist, did not include foot-binding. This
was practiced in China only and as for as I know this was no longer
practiced a hundred years ago, though I may be wrong about that.
--
Pedro Colman | Every sweet hath its sour;
hissatsu@.ix.netcom.com | every evil its good. - R.W. Emerson
Douglas Jacobs
: >
: >>O.k. time to get real for a minute. I am not a fan of Anime but I have a
Actually, the poster admitted to not of seeing much anime. I know if I
was shown Project Ako as my first exposure to anime, I'd of gotten a very
different idea about what anime is. Project Ako is not the sort of thing
I'd show a newbie to anime per se...at least it wouldn't be the first thing
I'd show. When I did show Ako to a couple of female friends of mine, they
liked it...though they didn't think much of B-ko's fighting outfit. So,
his response to anime after seeing Project Ako is understandable.
Lum
Anime is positive sexism
Why always think of things as bad or negative
Their is nothing wrong with highlighting the human body, male or female
All females I've shown Anime to think it's good females are used more as
the heroines and main characters, if not for anime where would we find this.
Negative sexism I think is seen best where women are slapped around as
servants and sex objects and inferior. Anime glorifies the good.
Got it
Gregory Zimlich
: >tendency to highlight the young nubile bodies of the heroines? I refer
: >mostly to Dominion and Project A-ko. The fight scenes were choreographed
: >to enhance every crotch-butt-cleavage shot available. How about the
: >outfit of B-ko? This is sexism.
Bah! That's not sexism. Somebody called it "fan service". Sexism
is when the female characters are all whiny and incompetent. Or my
personal favorite -- the female character who appears to be capable
and independent, but in the end has to get rescued/swept away by the
male lead. Ugh.
Why is T&A considered sexist anyway?
Besides, you just can't lump A-ko with the rest of them. I just
loved the scene in the second movie where A-ko changes into her
bathing suit. Blatant fan disservice. ^_^ (If you haven't seen
it...well, you had to be there.)
-greg
Harry W Reed II
always been my observation the the most interesting and powerful
characters in anime have been women. Belldandy and her sisters; the
Knight Sabers; Hikaru, Umi and Fuu; the pilots of the 801st TTS; all of
the women in "Ranma 1/2"; the Sailor Senshi; Miyuu and Himiko; Lipumira
and her fellow ships; the women of "Tenchi Muyou!"; the entire Solnoid
race; Rally Vincent and Minnie May Hopkins; Kisaragi Ayaka; Cutey Honey;
Lum and her companions; I could go on and on. I would dare say that
women are better represented in anime than they are in Hollywood movies
or on US television. In fact, in "Megami Paradise" there isn't a single
male character. You need to check the genre you're looking at before
condemning anime as having a single viewpoint on anything.
Kyle
Ender Wiggin
[You call Ranma and UY sexist show?]:
Unless of course, the targeted audience is male...
Then, you have a good idea of the driving force behind all
these women/girls. In almost all of the examples that you list,
there's quite a bit of "tightness", if you get my meaning. How about
the girls of Burn-Up? Combat armor with stays...Yep empowering.
Anthony "Are..." "Are..." Ender
Lau "ARE..." Wiggin
/***************************\/===========================================\
|en...@starbase.neosoft.com | "Demo, atashi no hoo ga niatte wa ne"-Yuri |
\***************************/| Animedia special on Project Eden. ========/
\==================================/
Still Searching For Intelligent Life
Albert Tanone
: or on US television. In fact, in "Megami Paradise" there isn't a single
: condemning anime as having a single viewpoint on anything.
I doubt there're any 'male characters' in any of Playboy's playmate video
or calendar video or whatever the hell they call'em.
...Pascal the devil's advocate
Harry W Reed II
: Unless of course, the targeted audience is male...
: Then, you have a good idea of the driving force behind all
: these women/girls. In almost all of the examples that you list,
: there's quite a bit of "tightness", if you get my meaning. How about
: the girls of Burn-Up? Combat armor with stays...Yep empowering.
Anime certainly shows more than enough appreciation of the female body,
but it gives considerable credit to female minds as well. Where is it
written that women have to be presented as either competent or sexy but
not both? Western culture has the unfortunate view of any woman capable
of asserting herself has being anything from "bitch" to "butch". You
look at women in american movies and TV programs and it would appear than
no woman born in North America could find her way to the bathroom without
male intervention. In anime there is a fair amount of "fan service",
tight clothing and "Gainax Jiggles (TM)", but this does not make the
woman any less capable. In plenty of anime it's the women who wind up
pulling the men's cojones out of the fire. "Sailor Moon" dared to show
the intervention of Tuxedo Kamen as being more of a hinderance than a
help and it was ultimately a woman (Sailor Venus) who saved the rest of
the Sailor Senshi from Kunzite's trap. Who's to say that Ryouko can't
run around naked in an onsen and yet still be a dangerous and competent
warrior? Why can't the Sailor Senshi enjoy thinking about relationships
and shopping between bouts with the latest threat to Earth? Why can't
Priss slide into something slinky and sexy when she climbs out of that
hardsuit? Why can't Belldandy have a sexual edge to her soft and benign
personality? We already saw that when pushed Bell-chan can destroy real
estate with the best of them. The insult to women doesn't come from
admiring their bodies in various states of undress. Hell, art has been
doing that for millenia. Anime (at least that which I've seen) never
really insults the intelligence of the women portrayed in it. Even
Mihoshi can be incredibly competent in a pinch. She certainly knows how
to use all of those heavy weapons issued her by the Galaxy Police. In
the OVAs she never missed anything she fired at. On top of this she also
happens to be a cute, well-meaning character. So don't apply the western
dichotomy between competence and sex appeal to anime. It comes from a
different world where that standard is not observed.
Kyle
Ken Arromdee
Harry W Reed II <harr...@crl.com> wrote:
>Who's to say that Ryouko can't
>run around naked in an onsen and yet still be a dangerous and competent
>warrior? Why can't the Sailor Senshi enjoy thinking about relationships
>and shopping between bouts with the latest threat to Earth?
Tenchi Muyou is made for a male audience. Sailor Moon for a female audience.
There is a big difference in the reasons why Ryouko is shown naked in the
onsen and why the Senshi worry about boyfriends.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"Any creature who would disguise itself as a bone, obviously has no sense of
fair play!" -- Superboy Annual #1
Ender Wiggin
[You call Ranma and UY sexist show?]:
>
>: Unless of course, the targeted audience is male...
>: Then, you have a good idea of the driving force behind all
>: these women/girls. In almost all of the examples that you list,
>: there's quite a bit of "tightness", if you get my meaning. How about
>: the girls of Burn-Up? Combat armor with stays...Yep empowering.
>
>Anime certainly shows more than enough appreciation of the female body,
>but it gives considerable credit to female minds as well. Where is it
>written that women have to be presented as either competent or sexy but
>not both? Western culture has the unfortunate view of any woman capable
>of asserting herself has being anything from "bitch" to "butch".
Okay, I'll take your word about the "butch"/"bitch" thing. I
usually consider such a woman "bad-ass."
So the Japanese (anime) people separate the mind and body...so
why don't we have a super capable UGLY girl out there in a slinky body
suit battling the bad guys? Heck, not even the evil villianesses are
UGLY.
>You
>look at women in american movies and TV programs and it would appear than
>no woman born in North America could find her way to the bathroom without
>male intervention.
So the Japanese can portray "beauty and brains" together in on
"package" while the west can't. What about Geena Davis in Cutthroat
Island? She's empowered and beautiful at the same time. There are
always exceptions. For averages, we can't tell since we cannot watch
and see all movies/TV shows/books/comics/manga. Look at "shoujo" manga.
I haven't seen many titles, but the ones I have seen (X by CLAMP), the
male lead is a macho "pretty boy" and the female lead is a fragile flower.
>In anime there is a fair amount of "fan service",
>tight clothing and "Gainax Jiggles (TM)", but this does not make the
>woman any less capable.
But it does make them more of a sex object.
>In plenty of anime it's the women who wind up
>pulling the men's cojones out of the fire. "Sailor Moon" dared to show
>the intervention of Tuxedo Kamen as being more of a hinderance than a
>help and it was ultimately a woman (Sailor Venus) who saved the rest of
>the Sailor Senshi from Kunzite's trap.
Maybe in the manga Tuxedo's role was more of a hindrance, but
from what I saw of the first series of SM (which is all but 2 eps of
the US dub), TK seemed to pull Usagi's butt out of the fire alot more
often then the other way.
>Who's to say that Ryouko can't
>run around naked in an onsen and yet still be a dangerous and competent
>warrior? Why can't the Sailor Senshi enjoy thinking about relationships
>and shopping between bouts with the latest threat to Earth? Why can't
>Priss slide into something slinky and sexy when she climbs out of that
>hardsuit? Why can't Belldandy have a sexual edge to her soft and benign
>personality? We already saw that when pushed Bell-chan can destroy real
>estate with the best of them.
Why do they HAVE to have a sexy side?
>The insult to women doesn't come from
>admiring their bodies in various states of undress. Hell, art has been
>doing that for millenia. Anime (at least that which I've seen) never
>really insults the intelligence of the women portrayed in it. Even
>Mihoshi can be incredibly competent in a pinch. She certainly knows how
>to use all of those heavy weapons issued her by the Galaxy Police. In
>the OVAs she never missed anything she fired at. On top of this she also
>happens to be a cute, well-meaning character. So don't apply the western
^^^^^^
>dichotomy between competence and sex appeal to anime.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The west does not hold a patent on THAT trait, I assure you.
>It comes from a
>different world where that standard is not observed.
It also comes from one of the most sexist countries in the
world. It's changing, but I wouldn't say that women are on equal
footing over there (or here for that matter).
Anthony Lau I G en...@neosoft.com
Graduate Student N M U O al69...@bcm.tmc.edu
Developmental Biology A E IS S I!
Harry W Reed II
: So the Japanese (anime) people separate the mind and body...so
: why don't we have a super capable UGLY girl out there in a slinky body
: suit battling the bad guys? Heck, not even the evil villianesses are
: UGLY.
I refer you to an adorable bit of fluff called "Metal Fighter Miku".
Many of the opponents the Pretty Four face in the ring are far from
kawaii. Also the mother figure to the girls is not presented as gorgeous
and yet she is a guiding hand to the girls on the team.
: But it does make them more of a sex object.
Possibly. But this is not in and of itself a bad thing. Sexuality is
part of who we are whether we're male of female. Anime incorporates
sexuality into its characters because sexuality is incorporated into us.
It wouldn't be a realistic portrayal without it. To regard the
appreciation of someone's sex appeal as insulting is something of an
overreaction promoted by trial attorneys.
: Maybe in the manga Tuxedo's role was more of a hindrance, but
: from what I saw of the first series of SM (which is all but 2 eps of
: the US dub), TK seemed to pull Usagi's butt out of the fire alot more
: often then the other way.
Tuxedo Kamen never took the fight out of Sailor Moon's hands. He fought
with her in the tennis episode but for the most part he provides her with
a brief respite to gather herself and then Sailor Moon ends the fight.
In the final confrontation with Jadeite TK could have taken him out or at
least put up more of a struggle before being "killed" but he didn't. He
left the fight with Jadeite to the Senshi.
: Why do they HAVE to have a sexy side?
Because women have a sexy side to them. So do men. The endearment anime
characters earn from their fans is due to their depth as people. Yes, I
said people. Mizuno Ami isn't someone who just runs around in a
miniskirt squirting bubbles at monsters. She is a teen-aged girl with
hopes, dreams, aspirations, insecurities and (dare I say it) desires.
The more of these things we learn about our favorite characters the more
we love them. Without this depth of personality anime would never have
gotten past "Astro Boy".
: The west does not hold a patent on THAT trait, I assure you.
I didn't say it did. But good anime pushes beyond that where character
development is concerned. If real women can flirt and show a little skin
then their anime counterparts are certainly able to as well.
: It also comes from one of the most sexist countries in the
: world. It's changing, but I wouldn't say that women are on equal
: footing over there (or here for that matter).
True. But the top slot in japanese manga is held by a woman. And I
suspect Takeuchi Naoko and Clamp aren't far behind.
Kyle
Arondell Hoch
>It wouldn't be a realistic portrayal without it. To regard the
>appreciation of someone's sex appeal as insulting is something of an
>overreaction promoted by trial attorneys.
>
>Kyle
I vaguely remember a case about 1-2 years ago about some female
American actor suing a european actor when he complemented her on her
attractive breasts. His response was something like this.
(Paraphrased) In Europe complements on ones physical appearance are
just that.(Complements) America is quite possibly the most uptight
country in the world when it comes to sex and sexuality. Stop worrying
about it and just take the stories on there own merit rather than how
much skin you can see between ankle and waist.
Arondell
aron...@ix.netcom.com
Ender Wiggin
>: why don't we have a super capable UGLY girl out there in a slinky body
>: suit battling the bad guys? Heck, not even the evil villianesses are
>: UGLY.
>
>Many of the opponents the Pretty Four face in the ring are far from
>kawaii. Also the mother figure to the girls is not presented as gorgeous
>and yet she is a guiding hand to the girls on the team.
I'll take a look.
>: But it does make them more of a sex object.
>
>Possibly. But this is not in and of itself a bad thing.
Strange camera positions, panty shots, breast shots,
wiggle*wiggle*jiggle*jiggle only "possible" makes the viewed object a
sex object? I hate to see your definition of "positively" (sex slaves
of the Overfiend, maybe?)
>Sexuality is
>part of who we are whether we're male of female. Anime incorporates
>sexuality into its characters because sexuality is incorporated into us.
>It wouldn't be a realistic portrayal without it. To regard the
>appreciation of someone's sex appeal as insulting is something of an
>overreaction promoted by trial attorneys.
Sexuality is one thing, but "fan service" is inherently sexist
since it is not a part of the character. It's something "extra" the
animators put in. "Fan service" is not part of the character.
>: Maybe in the manga Tuxedo's role was more of a hindrance, but
>: from what I saw of the first series of SM (which is all but 2 eps of
>: the US dub), TK seemed to pull Usagi's butt out of the fire alot more
>: often then the other way.
>
>Tuxedo Kamen never took the fight out of Sailor Moon's hands. He fought
>with her in the tennis episode but for the most part he provides her with
>a brief respite to gather herself and then Sailor Moon ends the fight.
Without those "brief respite"s, SM would be a dead senshi.
>: Why do they HAVE to have a sexy side?
>
>Because women have a sexy side to them. So do men. The endearment anime
>characters earn from their fans is due to their depth as people. Yes, I
>said people. Mizuno Ami isn't someone who just runs around in a
>miniskirt squirting bubbles at monsters. She is a teen-aged girl with
>hopes, dreams, aspirations, insecurities and (dare I say it) desires.
>The more of these things we learn about our favorite characters the more
>we love them. Without this depth of personality anime would never have
>gotten past "Astro Boy".
But we don't have male "fan service."
>: The west does not hold a patent on THAT trait, I assure you.
>
>I didn't say it did. But good anime pushes beyond that where character
>development is concerned. If real women can flirt and show a little skin
>then their anime counterparts are certainly able to as well.
Well, it sure seemed be what you were saying about North
American women not being able to go to the bathroom without male
intervention.
>: It also comes from one of the most sexist countries in the
>: world. It's changing, but I wouldn't say that women are on equal
>: footing over there (or here for that matter).
>
>True. But the top slot in japanese manga is held by a woman. And I
>suspect Takeuchi Naoko and Clamp aren't far behind.
Huh? I have no idea of market share between the various manga
artists since a Japanese "comic book" is an anthology. Nakayoshi, in
which Takeuchi Naoko is published in, may be the top the shoujo manga,
but I don't think Nakayoshi is near the top of manga sales in general.