[Q] Spray primer woes...
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
deezaster after another. Latest snag? Getting a smooth coat of !@#$%?
primer on the thing.
History: My first attempt used Plasti-Kote spray primer, which I'd heard
good things about. Though the day was reasonably warm and the can
well-shaken, the paint came out as a thick, gummy, orange-peeled mess,
and it NEVER DRIED. Scratch the Plasti-Kote.
Next, Krylon. After ruining one side of the part with the aforementioned
Plasti-Kote, I sprayed a couple of exceedingly casual coats with my old
can of Krylon sandable primer. Somehow it went on looking really good:
smooth, small drops, thin coats, dried quickly, very nice. Today I tried
to do a real coat with the stuff. Again, thick, spattery, orange-peely
and nasty, and again it seemed reluctant to dry. It was maybe ten
degrees warmer today than it was the first time. Does temp really have
THAT much of an effect? And if so, should I take up knitting as a hobby
instead?
So here I am, seemingly incapable of getting a decent primer coat on my
damn model. At this point I don't know what brand to use, how far away I
should be holding the damn can, how long to let the paint dry, or any of
it. I feel this model is doing everything it can to melt my brain, and I
would sincerely appreciate some HELP!
J.E.D.
Giuliano Moschini
-Giuliano
"James E. 'ZEE' Doyle" <s*p*rw*mb*t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:s*p*rw*mb*t-9F0A4E.04...@nnrp02.earthlink.net...
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
"Giuliano Moschini" <giulian...@moschini.org> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, in what kind of a location are you storing those
> spraycans?
They are in the garage currently. It gets really bloody hot out here in
the desert, so they may have cooked a little over the summer, but to my
knowledge they haven't sat out in exposed sunlight or anything.
Picked up a fresh can of Krylon, will use that for the next attempt.
J.E.D.
Hiroaki Fukuda
Even though it would cost more, you could have used Tamiya or Gunze or
even Dupli-Color from the first place, so that you didn't have to
suffer. ;)
--
Hiroaki Fukuda
Y! Japan Auction - I bid on your behalf.
Sports and Race Car Modeling Page
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xr2h-fkd/scalemodels/index.html
Giuliano Moschini
it was out of sunlight.
Try keeping your fresh can of Krylon indoors for storage, where I'd imagine you have air
conditioning of some sort.
Conversely, I wouldn't recommend storing your spraycans in the fridge either. ;-)
-Giuliano
"James E. 'ZEE' Doyle" <s*p*rw*mb*t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:s*p*rw*mb*t-0F9612.06...@nnrp02.earthlink.net...
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
Hiroaki Fukuda <hir...@din.or.jp> wrote:
> Even though it would cost more, you could have used Tamiya or Gunze or
> even Dupli-Color from the first place, so that you didn't have to
> suffer. ;)
I tried Tamiya primer on a spare model this morning. It goes on a little
thinner than the Krylon, but I'm still getting that rough, sandpapery
texture.
I tried the new can of Krylon too. This one is sending out much stronger
and wetter coats, but the texture has been somewhat better than
yesterday's attempt (and no cracking so far, touch wood). Still a
somewhat sandpapery finish though, and the thickness of the paint is
beginning to mute the tiny bevels along the edges of the leg (kit in
question is the HGUC RX-78-2, BTW). Indeed, since they're on the edges,
these bevels are getting the worst of the grainy-flocky overspray.
Sanding these areas makes me extremely nervous, but is wet-sanding
primer just a given? Am I asking the impossible in my hunt for a
glassy-smooth coat straight from the can?
I'm spraying anywhere from 5 to 10 inches from the part, reasonably fast
strokes. Any slower and the paint goes on wet and thick. Am I using the
wrong technique? Or do the paint gods just hate me? I suspect the latter.
P.S. turns out I have a can of Dupli-Color dk. grey sandable, so I just
tried that too... worst results yet. The coat is not just orange-peel,
it looks downright crazed.
What in Jebus' name am I doing WRONG?
J.E.D.
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
"Giuliano Moschini" <giulian...@moschini.org> wrote:
> The ambient temperature even in your garage may have been a bit too warm for
> the cans, even though it was out of sunlight.
So being stored in ambient heat of 100° or so can screw up paints? I'm
assuming this goes for the several dozen bottled acrylics I had stored
out there too?
This project is going to "relax" me to death at this rate. Might be time
to take up macaroni sculpture or something.
But, onward... what's a good mail-order source for Mr. Surfacer in the
can?
J.E.D.
John Hwang
>Okay, I'm REALLY trying to finish a kit here, and it's just been one
>deezaster after another. Latest snag? Getting a smooth coat of !@#$%?
>primer on the thing.
Sorry to hear it...
Nothing like having to strip a brand-new model because the primer coat is
mucked up... Been there, done that, not excited to do-over.
>History: My first attempt used Plasti-Kote spray primer, which I'd heard
>good things about. Though the day was reasonably warm and the can
>well-shaken, the paint came out as a thick, gummy, orange-peeled mess,
>and it NEVER DRIED. Scratch the Plasti-Kote.
If thick, you're probably too close -- try spraying from farther back, about a
foot?
>Next, Krylon. After ruining one side of the part with the aforementioned
>Plasti-Kote, I sprayed a couple of exceedingly casual coats with my old
>can of Krylon sandable primer. Somehow it went on looking really good:
>smooth, small drops, thin coats, dried quickly, very nice. Today I tried
>to do a real coat with the stuff. Again, thick, spattery, orange-peely
>and nasty, and again it seemed reluctant to dry. It was maybe ten
>degrees warmer today than it was the first time. Does temp really have
>THAT much of an effect? And if so, should I take up knitting as a hobby
>instead?
If it's not the temperature, I'd guess you're getting killed by humidity.
Usually, you want it warmer and drier, so that the primer dries faster and
doesn't run. But you don't want it so warm and dry that the paint starts to
dry in the air and then lands on whatever you're spraying. So there's a range
of temperatures and humidity which works well. If you're comfortable, then you
should be able to spray.
I hear good things about Krylon, so I don't know what's going on with your can.
I'd try to get a replacement can.
>So here I am, seemingly incapable of getting a decent primer coat on my
>damn model. At this point I don't know what brand to use, how far away I
>should be holding the damn can, how long to let the paint dry, or any of
>it. I feel this model is doing everything it can to melt my brain, and I
>would sincerely appreciate some HELP!
I'll cover the obvious -- you're washing your plastics in detergent to remove
any mold release agents, letting them dry thoroughly before spraying, shaking
the can of primer thoroughly before spraying, etc, etc. Right? Right.
FWIW, I primarily use hobby primers, on both plastic and metal.
My main primer is Games Workshop / Citadel black primer, which is a primer for
acrylics. It usually goes on smooth and black as night. But I did get one
bad can, which fuzzed immediately, and I pitched right away. It's *very*
expensive, so I've been looking to switch down to something cheaper, like
Krylon or the Plasti-Kote you've tried. --sigh-- GW/Citadel also makes a
white primer, which I generally hear good things about, for a white primer.
My secondary primer is Armoury "black" primer. This is also formulated for
acrylics, and goes on nicely. But it's not as black, being a dark grey.
Sometimes, this is better than a true black. Armoury also makes/made a grey
primer, which I found to be acceptable. Their white primer was *not* found to
be acceptable, so I pitched that right away.
I've tried Testor's grey primer, and didn't like it. The surface wasn't
smooth, it felt thick and rubbery, and took forever to dry. I think it was
formulated for enamels. In any case, I pitched that right away.
Recommendation: spend $20 on different kinds of primer, and another $20 on BB
Senshi / SD Gundam. Start spraying and hope you find a good one. Then
immediately switch over to the main model.
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
Norm Dresner
news:s*p*rw*mb*t-9F0A4E.04...@nnrp02.earthlink.net...
I hope your experiences are an indication that it will always happen
that way. I've been searching for years for a dependable method to
simulate certain fabrics in car models. (In other words, Lemonade!)
Norm
Norm Dresner
news:Wkit8.23744$QC1.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Seriously, I've found that I get this at least sometimes if I don't
shake the can sufficiently to completely break up the paint particles
inside the can.
Norm
John Hwang
> Hiroaki Fukuda <hir...@din.or.jp> wrote:
>
>> Even though it would cost more, you could have used Tamiya or Gunze or
>> even Dupli-Color from the first place, so that you didn't have to
>> suffer. ;)
Geez -- kick him a bit harder next time... :)
>I tried Tamiya primer on a spare model this morning. It goes on a little
>thinner than the Krylon, but I'm still getting that rough, sandpapery
>texture.
Spraying from too far?
>I tried the new can of Krylon too. This one is sending out much stronger
>and wetter coats, but the texture has been somewhat better than
>yesterday's attempt (and no cracking so far, touch wood). Still a
>somewhat sandpapery finish though, and the thickness of the paint is
>beginning to mute the tiny bevels along the edges of the leg (kit in
>question is the HGUC RX-78-2, BTW). Indeed, since they're on the edges,
>these bevels are getting the worst of the grainy-flocky overspray.
Spraying from too close?
>Sanding these areas makes me extremely nervous, but is wet-sanding
>primer just a given? Am I asking the impossible in my hunt for a
>glassy-smooth coat straight from the can?
No. My experience with hobby primer is that it is possible to get a smooth
coat of primer straight from the can. Sanding is not necessary.
But it takes a bit of practice with a particular brand of primer to get this
result, the right distance, the right speed, etc.
>I'm spraying anywhere from 5 to 10 inches from the part, reasonably fast
>strokes. Any slower and the paint goes on wet and thick. Am I using the
>wrong technique? Or do the paint gods just hate me? I suspect the latter.
>
>P.S. turns out I have a can of Dupli-Color dk. grey sandable, so I just
>tried that too... worst results yet. The coat is not just orange-peel,
>it looks downright crazed.
IIRC, Dupli-Color is another flavor of Krylon, right?
>What in Jebus' name am I doing WRONG?
Jeepus hates you!
Seriously, I'd go with the other suggestion of not storing paint in the garage.
Keep it indoors, under A/C and heat. If I were you, I'd pitch all of my
existing primer stock (how old is it???) and buy new.
Giuliano Moschini
> In article <a944m9$h...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
> "Giuliano Moschini" <giulian...@moschini.org> wrote:
>
> > The ambient temperature even in your garage may have been a bit too warm for
> > the cans, even though it was out of sunlight.
>
> So being stored in ambient heat of 100° or so can screw up paints? I'm
> assuming this goes for the several dozen bottled acrylics I had stored
> out there too?
Yes, I could imagine that storage in 100 degree temperatures can mess up paints, spray-can or
bottle.
Check the label - most will have instructions for proper storage.
> This project is going to "relax" me to death at this rate. Might be time
> to take up macaroni sculpture or something.
>
> But, onward... what's a good mail-order source for Mr. Surfacer in the can?
You spray-paint in your bathroom? *boggle* ;-)
Seriously, though...
HLJ has them, Rainbow Ten has them..
On this side of the ocean, I know www.phoenix-model.com has them.
I, of course, am completely out of Surfacer, and have been for quite some time.
I'll probably start ordering some more in bottles & cans once I'm employed again... whenever that
happens.. ;-)
-Giuliano
Scott Truesdell
well agitated. My Krylon primer regimen is:
mist
wait half hour
mist
wait one hour
lightly dry sand with 600 to remove any dust specs or orange peel
wet coat <----------------------------------------------+
wait one hour |
examine for any holidays; if found, do another wet coat ---+
wait two days
wet sand with 600 in preparation for color coats.
Krylon primer's pigments are platelets and settle down flat against the
subject during the drying process. The overlapping platelet paint is good
for high cover with minimum buildup. I have had success with Krylon NOT
obscuring details.
--scott
--
Thanks to the spammers, you will need to remove the hot dog in my address to send me email.
Andrea Annibale
derive from this.Remember that you should shake continuously,with vigorous
strokes the can for ONE MINUTE before use.Don't understimate this aspect of
painting.
Bye
"James E. 'ZEE' Doyle" <s*p*rw*mb*t...@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:s*p*rw*mb*t-9F0A4E.04...@nnrp02.earthlink.net...
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
true...@uci.weener.edu (Scott Truesdell) wrote:
> mist
> wait half hour
> mist
> wait one hour
> lightly dry sand with 600 to remove any dust specs or orange peel
> wet coat <----------------------------------------------+
> wait one hour |
> examine for any holidays; if found, do another wet coat ---+
> wait two days
> wet sand with 600 in preparation for color coats.
This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. My approach so far
has been light coat, immediately followed by light coat, followed by
oops it's getting kinda thick, and so on. I figured there must be a
better method, but I really had no idea how to proceed. Doesn't help
that I'm exceedingly damn impatient.
Couple questions: by "mist", do you mean not-quite complete coverage, or
a dry but fairly even thin coat? And what is the optimum spraying
distance/pass time for a "wet" coat?
At any rate, I will try this method. Thanks again.
J.E.D.
John Hwang
>Shake Krylon VERY WELL. It has fairly high solids content and needs to be
>well agitated. My Krylon primer regimen is:
>
> mist
coat 1
> wait half hour
> mist
coat 2
> wait one hour
> lightly dry sand with 600 to remove any dust specs or orange peel
> wet coat <----------------------------------------------+
coat 3
> wait one hour |
> examine for any holidays; if found, do another wet coat ---+
coat 3.5
> wait two days
> wet sand with 600 in preparation for color coats.
>
>Krylon primer's pigments are platelets and settle down flat against the
>subject during the drying process. The overlapping platelet paint is good
>for high cover with minimum buildup. I have had success with Krylon NOT
>obscuring details.
Egad -- three and a half coats of primer, and you still have to wet sand!
Anyhow, I just ran out of GW/Citadel Black primer, so I needed to get new
primer.
On the advice of the guys at the hardware store, I just got a can of "premium"
Rustoleum automobile primer "for the ultimate finish", fast drying, wet
sandable. Cap is dark grey, says "Primer, quick-easy!, fast drying, wet
sandable!".
They recommended Rustolemum primer over Krylon grey sandable primer ($3.79 vs
$2.99).
I took it back and did a couple of test figs -- a SD Sandrock and a metal
miniature which needed priming.
Fine particles, no obscuring of detail, and indeed, it is fast-drying. Which
is a major plus. I'm thinking that this is acrylic-based, rather than
enamel-based.
But the SD Sandrock is showing a bit of orange peel... Will try again later on
SD Quin-Mantha...
More tomorrow, after they've had more time to finish drying
Mark Wilson
<s*p*rw*mb*t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I tried Tamiya primer on a spare model this morning. It goes on a little
>thinner than the Krylon, but I'm still getting that rough, sandpapery
>texture.
Yes...
>I tried the new can of Krylon too. This one is sending out much stronger
>and wetter coats, but the texture has been somewhat better than
>yesterday's attempt (and no cracking so far, touch wood). Still a
>somewhat sandpapery finish though, and the thickness of the paint is
>beginning to mute the tiny bevels along the edges of the leg (kit in
>question is the HGUC RX-78-2, BTW). Indeed, since they're on the edges,
>these bevels are getting the worst of the grainy-flocky overspray.
>Sanding these areas makes me extremely nervous, but is wet-sanding
>primer just a given? Am I asking the impossible in my hunt for a
>glassy-smooth coat straight from the can?
Dude--primer is supposed to be a bit rough and sandy. That is how the
color coats get their grip. If you really want a smooth primer coat,
hit the model with an old tee shirt and lightly buff.
>I'm spraying anywhere from 5 to 10 inches from the part, reasonably fast
>strokes. Any slower and the paint goes on wet and thick. Am I using the
>wrong technique? Or do the paint gods just hate me? I suspect the latter.
For the mega can of Krlyon 1318, I usually hold the can a good 12-15
inches from the parts and literally tap the trigger while sweeping.
If I do it right, I get the part in a primer "cloud". The object is
to initially dust the part and let the coats build up. Yes, you will
waste a lot of paint, but with the "magnum" sized can, you have a ton
to waste.
Again, the smooth coat is the color coat. A smooth primer will cause
the color coat to run, just like painting bare plastic.
>P.S. turns out I have a can of Dupli-Color dk. grey sandable, so I just
>tried that too... worst results yet. The coat is not just orange-peel,
>it looks downright crazed.
>
>What in Jebus' name am I doing WRONG?
Your models are cursed. Send them to me for an immediate exorcism. I
can't promise curing all of them....
>J.E.D.
Mark Wilson
The Sleeping Giant has awoken....
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/
RAAM FAQ:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmwilson2/RAAMFAQ/index.html
Mark Wilson
<s*p*rw*mb*t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
My take:
>> mist
wait 2-3 minutes--basically prime another part in the batch.
>> mist
wait 2-3 minutes
>> mist
wait 2-3 minutes--basically prime another part in the batch.
>> mist
wait 2-3 minutes
Is it gray? If so...
>> wait two days
I have never had any reason to sand Krylon, unless I found a defect. I
also do not do "wet coats"--once it is gray, it is primed enough to
put on the color. But then again, I'm not trying to get a car
show-room glass finish.
>This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. My approach so far
>has been light coat, immediately followed by light coat, followed by
>oops it's getting kinda thick, and so on. I figured there must be a
>better method, but I really had no idea how to proceed. Doesn't help
>that I'm exceedingly damn impatient.
Replace "light coat" with "mist"
>Couple questions: by "mist", do you mean not-quite complete coverage, or
>a dry but fairly even thin coat? And what is the optimum spraying
>distance/pass time for a "wet" coat?
Distance: 200-1500 m (or 12-15 in if you don't do metric;)
Time? I usually have about 5 -10 pieces ready to prime when i do it.
I rotate through, doing one side of a part at a time, slowing down if
the previous coat looks "wet".
One other note--when i prime, I usually end up setting the parts aside
for weeks. the final dry time isn't a huge issue for me.
>At any rate, I will try this method. Thanks again.
>
>
>J.E.D.
Mark Wilson
Al Superczynski
<mmwi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Distance: 200-1500 m...
Man, that would *really* be a mist coat..... ;-p
--
Al Superczynski, MFE, IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968
My "From" address is munged - click "Reply To" to respond via email.
Check out my want and disposal lists at "Al's Place":
http://apollo.up-link.net/~modeleral
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."
Mark Wilson
<mode...@deadspam.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 01:52:39 GMT, Mark Wilson
><mmwi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Distance: 200-1500 m...
>
> Man, that would *really* be a mist coat..... ;-p
You should see the scope I have mounted on that puppy.....;)
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
fresh Krylon. This did indeed give the best results so far, but the
surface is still so.... ROUGH. I mean, this is a 1/144 kit, so every
little flaw stands out like crazy in my view... and we're not just
talking a slightly toothy surface,we're still talking a deep grainy
texture roughly akin to 600 grade sandpaper. Short of sanding every
sprayed surface before the real painting begins, I just don't see how
this is ever going to be acceptable on such small models. In my
experience, color sprayed on top of rough paint will multiply that
roughness with each coat.
So I'm gonna empty my wallet some more and order some Mr. Surfacer and
some Games Workshop Satin Black, and cross my fingers. I did a lot of
research last night, and I found out some interesting things about
industrial primers vs. hobby primers... basically the former sound
totally inappropriate for anything with fine small-scale detail, so I'm
just gonna cross my fingers that the (very expensive) latter will cure
my painting ills.
More as it comes.
J.E.D.
Dan
"James E. 'ZEE' Doyle" <s*p*rw*mb*t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:s*p*rw*mb*t-88EA23.06...@nnrp02.earthlink.net...
Er, why use primer at all? I generally don't use it, and my kits turn out
fine.
>
John Hwang
[SNIP]
>Er, why use primer at all? I generally don't use it, and my
>kits turn out fine.
The main reason is so that the paint job is more durable. You can get
absolutely *beautiful* paint jobs without primer, just as you can with primer.
However, without primer, paint is much more susceptible to chipping and flaking
and other wear-related problems. Primer forms a "glue" of sorts keeping the
paint in place on whatever is being painted.
In addition, your color balance will be much more strongly affected by the
underlying color of the surface. By using a neutral base, the color balance is
not affected and colors are consistent from part to part. This effect can be
done by spraying the entire model in a neutral grey before painting "for real".
But if one goes this route, one might as well prime in a neutral grey at the
start.
Finally, primer tends to fill in scratches to some extent, depending on the
primer and the size of the scratch. But to do this right, you really want a
dedicated surfacer.
John Hwang
>some Games Workshop Satin Black, and cross my fingers. I did a lot of
>research last night, and I found out some interesting things about
>industrial primers vs. hobby primers... basically the former sound
>totally inappropriate for anything with fine small-scale detail, so I'm
>just gonna cross my fingers that the (very expensive) latter will cure
>my painting ills.
For example, Google brought this up [my notes]:
"When these primer problems began to be reported, someone on a 40K [miniatures
wargaming] e-list asked why we needed to be buying expensive Citadel [Games
Workshop brand] Primer in the first place. Couldn't a cheap department store
primer work just as well, at about a third the price? Someone posted this
excellent advice below. Unfortunately, I saved the advice, but not the poster's
name. If you know who wrote this, please let me know and I'll give him proper
credit. Sorry in advance for this oversight.
[quote within quote]
GW and other modelling primer is formulated specifically to shrink when it
dries. This allows the fine details of the model to show up. GW primer is also
formulated to dry to a satin finish. This semi-smooth surface is rough enough
to accept and adhere paint, yet smooth enough to leave behind a nice crisp
finish. Recently, GW has changed the formulation of their primer and I believe
it is actually manufactured by Krylon in North America. I could be wrong, but
it smells like Krylon at least. Due to FAA regulations and complicated
shipping, propellant paints are manufactured continentally, so these
manufacturers may differ around the world.
I mentioned Krylon -- also known for their industrial primers. You may believe
that this is a good substitute, but it isn't, and here's why: Industrial
primers (any available at a home hardware store is considered industrial
primer) are designed to fill imperfections, cracks, scratches and blisters,
etc. The paint is formulated to coat thickly, and some actually expands as it
dries in order to fill those imperfections. The side affect of this is that all
that fine detail on those miniatures which you so love will be filled up with
paint and ruined. Worse, most industrial primers leave a rough, chalky finish,
which further ruins the finished look of a model. The reason for this is
because industrial primers are typically sanded before the application of the
overcoat to provide better bite, and ultimately, a smoother surface, so they do
not require a satin finish. This actually allows the primer to fulfil the first
goal of filling the scratches. Obviously you can't sand miniatures, so you're
forced to deal with this rough chalky finish when painting.
I think the choice is clear that the best primers to use on miniatures are
those specifically formulated for arts, crafts and modelling. GW is not the
only game in town in this regard, and there are actually several suppliers of
spray primer available, some cheaper, some more costly. I use GW because I find
it's the best I've used. Of course, opinions will vary. This new formulation is
even better, though I find it lacks some bite if the model has not been washed
beforehand with soap and hot water. "
The initial note is on how GW primer needs to be "swirled around" in addition
to being shaken "up and down".
Ron
filling? I have used Rustoleum and other enamel based spray paints
and found out that the seams reappear when I spray on these types of
spray paints. The paints seem to swell up the plastic and recreate
the seam on the model.
Ron
On 11 Apr 2002 21:44:57 GMT, johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang)
wrote:
WolfKeeper
news:20020412144229...@mb-bj.news.cs.com:
> I think the choice is clear that the best primers to use on miniatures
> are those specifically formulated for arts, crafts and modelling. GW
> is not the only game in town in this regard, and there are actually
> several suppliers of spray primer available, some cheaper, some more
> costly. I use GW because I find it's the best I've used.
And everyone wonders why my miniature paint jobs look so good when they're
all out buying automotive or other primers from their local Wally World or
elsewhere.
Yes, you pay a few more bucks for Citadel primer or Mr. Surfacer, but it's
worth the final results.
- WK
Andrew Ryan Chang
>For example, Google brought this up [my notes]:
>[quote within quote]
>that this is a good substitute, but it isn't, and here's why: Industrial
>primers (any available at a home hardware store is considered industrial
>primer) are designed to fill imperfections, cracks, scratches and blisters,
I seem to recall reading that this was one benefit of Mr Surfacer
as a primer, that it filled in minor seams and scratches...
--
Skinner: Oh, relax, kids, I've got a _gut_ feeling Uter is around here
somewhere. [chuckles] After all, isn't there a little _Uter_ in all
of us? [chuckles] In fact, you might even say we just _ate_ Uter and
he's in our _stomachs_ right now! [laughs] Wait...scratch that one.
WolfKeeper
news:a97mjk$np$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca:
> I seem to recall reading that this was one benefit of Mr Surfacer
> as a primer, that it filled in minor seams and scratches...
Depends which "grade" you get. Yes, Mr. Surfacer 500 does that. OTOH, Mr.
Surfacer 1000 and 1200 do much less to practically nil.
- WK
John Hwang
>Do you guys use superglue when assembling your kits and
>for gap filling?
Sometimes.
>I have used Rustoleum and other enamel based spray paints
>and found out that the seams reappear when I spray on
>these types of spray paints. The paints seem to swell up the
>plastic and recreate the seam on the model.
I haven't noticed this on the one model. Primer is mysterious stuff.
Well, the plastic kit hasn't seemed to tighten down any further. But the metal
mini seems to be OK, with less grain than the plastic kit.
John Hwang
Long enough spam trap?
>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote :
>
>> I think the choice is clear that the best primers to use on miniatures
>> are those specifically formulated for arts, crafts and modelling. GW
>> is not the only game in town in this regard, and there are actually
>> several suppliers of spray primer available, some cheaper, some more
>> costly. I use GW because I find it's the best I've used.
>
>And everyone wonders why my miniature paint jobs look so good when they're
>all out buying automotive or other primers from their local Wally World or
>elsewhere.
Actually most people swap down to Krylon, which seems to be the "best" (least
unsuitable) of the non-hobby primers.
However from my quick Google search, it's becoming abundantly clear that the
"professionals" prefer Floquil, Citadel/GW, and Armoury spray primers
*exclusively* for miniatures, plastic, and resin kits.
>Yes, you pay a few more bucks for Citadel primer or Mr. Surfacer, but it's
>worth the final results.
One would think that one of the paint companies would figure this out and make
a hobby primer, simply selling directly whatever GW/Armory/whomever is
relabeling. Hook it in with Hobbytown USA, that sort of thing.
Stan Mallory
throught the trouble of painting. Filling the gaps only make sense.
"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote in message
news:20020413130820...@mb-fa.news.cs.com...
John Hwang
[my comments]:
Subject: Re: Spray Primer
From: Myrmidon Im...@home.com
Date: 4/12/2002 5:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <MPG.17211bb84...@news-server.woh.rr.com>
In article <20020412163706...@mb-bj.news.cs.com>,
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com, John Hwang shouted out the following words
of wit...
> Question on this, has also come up on Rec.Arts.Anime.Models and
> Rec.Models.Scale
>
> I just ran out of Citadel Black primer, and am looking into alternatives,
along
> with another fellow who's been having trouble getting a smooth coat.
>
> With Krylon, he's getting a rough surface, no matter how he sprays it, tho
> "mists" seem to give the best result. Is he doing something wrong?
>
First off he needs to make sure he's washing his minis - esp. the
plastic stuff - with a degreaser (like 'Dawn' dish soap or 'Clorox
Household Cleaner') to get mold release and oils from your fingers off
the plastics. These sorts of films on the plastic can cause the 'orange
peel' effect to some degree.
Second - temperature does indeed make a difference in how smooth a
primer will dry on a mini - heat tends to speed up rates of reactions in
chemical processes which means a warm mini will tend to dry faster and
smoother as the acetone (which tends to cause the orange peel or rough
surface) is removed from the surface of the mini faster. When primering
while it's cold - I tend to heat the plastic with a hair dryer, while
letting the paint can soak in a bath of warm water. Shake the can, warm
the plastic to be painted, take it all out into the garage (or wherever)
to be painted, and bring it all right back in to let the paint dry where
it's warm. Tell him to try warming his plastics before painting to see
if that improves the smoothness of the coat.
Third - always test on a piece of plastic sprue BEFORE going on to
the good plastic models. I live by this rule and have yet to be
'fooled' by a can of paint that caused something to 'orange peel' after
doing ok on the test sprue if it was from the same plastics as I was
about to paint.
Four - always do light 'misting' coats on a mini. The thinner
(generally acetone IIRC) will take a lot longer to dry on the surface of
the mini when done in heavy coats which means it has a lot more of a
chance to melt the surface on a plastic mini.
I use all of these methods as it were to primer my minis due to
the fact that different batches of the same model plastic may have a
slightly different chemical make up, just as the amount of thinner
(which is what causes the orange peeling - or the thinner reacting with
mold release, etc.) varies from one can of primer to the next.
Tell your friend to warm his primer, and to warm some clean
plastic sprue and do a couple of light misting coats on it to see if
resolves his 'rough texture' surface problem. Also suggest he try that
with more than one kind of primer to see if he can find one with a lower
thinner content.
> So I got a can of Rustoleum "fast drying" automotive primer, as a trial, and
it
> was fine for a metal mini, but I got a rough finish on a plastic mini.
Automotive primer tends to have a higher concentration of thinner
from what I have seen, so it isn't a surprise that the metal mini faired
ok, but the plastic one not so well.
[Bingo! I think I'll save the rustoleum for my metal minis, but not touch it
to plastic again.]
I use "Premium Decor"
interior/exterior Decorative enamel (It's by Krylon I think..) It's
the sort of stuff people use to paint household items like small
shelves, etc. I get it at the local 'True Value' Hardware store, but
I'd bet you can find it or and equivalent just about anywhere in the
States. I use the PDS-6 Flat Black. I use the flat colors as they tend
to have less thinner than the gloss colors and better meet my primering
needs.
[Ahh... Another useful pointer to keep in mind for my next batch of plastics.]
Hope that helps,
Myrmidon
[I'm now guessing that the thinner content is what's causing the problems with
the plastics. I had something like this happen to another plastic mini, but
didn't make the thinner connection at the time. Sadly, it likely means the
surface is ruined, and needs to be totally resurfaced. - JH]
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> I haven't noticed this on the one model. Primer is mysterious stuff.
Actually, I had this happen on the very kit I've been working on.
Sprayed on a too-thick coat of Krylon, and the seam immediately swelled
up all along the length of the part.
I think I used too much cement on it. The thing took a long time to dry
enough to the point where the seam didn't sink after sanding. The HGUC
Gundam has some fit issues, believe it or not. I'm thinking of switching
over to Zap-A-Gap for the rest of the assembly work. Not thrilled with
the idea, but I'm running out of time here, and I can't afford to wait a
month while the glue dries.
And actually, the part I've been working on has just been retired from
service. Had to sand that fuzz just a little too much, and the leg is
just a little too messed-up now to meet my diabolicially anal standards.
Mebbe I'll use it for an FA-78-1 conversion someday. Fortunately, I have
a spare. Live and learn.
I am going to finish this thing, dammit. Or it is going to finish me.
One of the two.
J.E.D.
John Hwang
> johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>
>> I haven't noticed this on the one model. Primer is mysterious stuff.
>
>Actually, I had this happen on the very kit I've been working on.
>Sprayed on a too-thick coat of Krylon, and the seam immediately swelled
>up all along the length of the part.
Ahh... Perhaps that's it, I didn't spray thickly enough.
>I think I used too much cement on it. The thing took a long time to dry
>enough to the point where the seam didn't sink after sanding. The HGUC
>Gundam has some fit issues, believe it or not. I'm thinking of switching
>over to Zap-A-Gap for the rest of the assembly work. Not thrilled with
>the idea, but I'm running out of time here, and I can't afford to wait a
>month while the glue dries.
Why don't you just use "regular" liquid or gel cement for plastic models?
That's what I use, and I've never had a problem with it. Currently, I'm using
Testor's liquid cement, and am getting good results.
>And actually, the part I've been working on has just been retired from
>service. Had to sand that fuzz just a little too much, and the leg is
>just a little too messed-up now to meet my diabolicially anal standards.
Usually, if something is poorly-primed, I'll just throw the lot in
(plastic-safe) solvent (e.g. Castrol Super Clean) and let it do its magic. The
primer will come off, and I can prime again. However, if the plastic itself
has crazed due to too much thinner, well, that'll show up, too. :(
>Mebbe I'll use it for an FA-78-1 conversion someday. Fortunately, I have
>a spare. Live and learn.
>
>I am going to finish this thing, dammit. Or it is going to finish me.
>One of the two.
Hope it's the former....
Anyhow, more from Rec.Games.Miniatures.Warhammer:
>> He lives in the desert. I think it's actually "hot" where he lives.
>
>What desert does he live in?
I don't know. Sorry.
>I used to live in the Sonora Desert and
>occasionally had problems due to low humidity (temperature didn't seem to
>matter). The primer would dry before hitting the mini resulting in a rough,
>chalky texture, especially if there was any kind of breeze. Making very
>quick passes with the primer at about 6" worked best.
Hmm... I guess I'll forward this, too.
James E. 'ZEE' Doyle
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> The primer would dry before hitting the mini resulting in a rough,
> >chalky texture, especially if there was any kind of breeze. Making very
> >quick passes with the primer at about 6" worked best.
Too much humidity, too little humidity, oy...and the breeze knows
exactly when I'm about to press that button and will almost always kick
up on my behalf.
Where's my air-conditioned studio? Where's my anonymous benefactor?
Where's my PILL?
Anyway, thanks fer yer continued efforts on my behalf.
J.E.D.
John Hwang
>
>> The primer would dry before hitting the mini resulting in a rough,
>> >chalky texture, especially if there was any kind of breeze. Making very
>> >quick passes with the primer at about 6" worked best.
>
>Too much humidity, too little humidity, oy...and the breeze knows
>exactly when I'm about to press that button and will almost always kick
>up on my behalf.
You have the same darn cross-breezes I do!
>Where's my air-conditioned studio? Where's my anonymous benefactor?
>Where's my PILL?
>
>Anyway, thanks fer yer continued efforts on my behalf.
You're quite welcome, tho, it's not totally altruistic.
I'm also looking into primers now. :)