How pervasive is anime in Japan, really?
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
I used to think that anime was very much a part of Japanese culture and
that a very large percentage of their TV and film was animated. However, I
was recently talking with a friend of mine who had recently lived in Japan
for a year and he tells me that the only people who watch anime (aside from
Miyazaki films, which is comparable to Disney) are otaku (and _not_ in the
North American sense!). So much so that if I were to tell anyone in Japan
that I liked anime, they would automatically assume that I was an otaku
'cause no one else watches anime (besides kids).
So, can somene who knows clear this up for me? This has totally
shattered my image of anime since I had believed very different for a long
time now (shows how much I know).
Thanks!
Uiler
know there are exceptions esp. hentai but in *general*). Basically it is
perfectly acceptable for adults to read manga but not really acceptable for
them to watch most anime. Basically as one Japanese girl told me, if you
are an adult in Japan and tell people that you watch anime a lot then
you'll be given very funny looks. However if you are an adult in Japan and
go to a manga store and buy manga to read on the way to work, well that's
considered pretty normal. However anime **imagery** is considered fine for
adults as well. For example a business man is not going to be embarrassed
to have an anime character on his Visa card.
I think one of the reasons for this is that most anime (excepting things
like hentai) are made from manga series that target younger audiences. For
example I read a lot of manga that is aimed at the older teenage female
audience and not a lot of that is made into anime besides a couple of OAVs
here and there if one is lucky.
Uiler
The Skeleton Man
"Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain>
wrote in message
news:q1Tk9.122744$U_.1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
It should be noted that just because someone is Japanese doesn't mean they
know everything about every facet of their country, and it certainly doesn't
mean that their response won't be colored by their own personaly bias. Ask
someone in the states who is not into Star Trek about the people who watch
it and more than likely they will niether paint the show or the fan base in
a positive light. ask someone who isn't into sports about football etc...
Anime is generally considered for kids and teenagers as was said, but
contrary to popular belief there are adults and business men who watch
broadcast anime. This is not to say you'll find them in stores buying OVA
and the like. The market would be huge if they did. Remember, even in Japan
a anime which does spectacular might sell 30,000 copies MAX.Usually 5-10,000
is considered doing great. Call them casual watchers. A lot of this is
younger generation adults of the tech age. Computers, multimedia, video game
and web design etc. This audience numbers in the millions. Are they otaku?
Not even in the sense that it is used here in this group. More than likely
they will know only about the most popular stuff and mostly only in theatres
or on television. They also don't go out of their way to find stuff.
It seems like everyone I ran into has seen a little Bebop and of course
Miyazaki works and other major films. These "casual" watchers are also a
high spending demographic. You can tell by what is advertised.
Still it's becming more common in the tech age to find adults with cross
platform interests in media. Far from the unshaven, filthy otaku image
commonly referred to, but a new net saavy business class of consumer.
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I changed my sig?
Wyvern
"Uiler" <uil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d94...@clarion.carno.net.au...
> Generally anime in Japan is considered to be for kids and teenagers (Yes I
> know there are exceptions esp. hentai but in *general*). Basically it is
> perfectly acceptable for adults to read manga but not really acceptable
for
> them to watch most anime.
Which if you think about it, makes no sense whatsoever. Aren't most anime
just animated versians of one manga or another? Why the distinction then?
It's the same story, same charecters, same everything (mostly) just with
color, sound and motion.
Basically as one Japanese girl told me, if you
> are an adult in Japan and tell people that you watch anime a lot then
> you'll be given very funny looks. However if you are an adult in Japan
and
> go to a manga store and buy manga to read on the way to work, well that's
> considered pretty normal.
However anime **imagery** is considered fine for
> adults as well. For example a business man is not going to be embarrassed
> to have an anime character on his Visa card.
Again, seems like a silly distinction to me. Then again, I guess if you have
Vash the Stampede on your Visa card, you can always say you're just a fan of
the Trigun manga reguardless of weather or not that's true.
> I think one of the reasons for this is that most anime (excepting things
> like hentai) are made from manga series that target younger audiences.
For
> example I read a lot of manga that is aimed at the older teenage female
> audience and not a lot of that is made into anime besides a couple of OAVs
> here and there if one is lucky.
>
> Uiler
This is true; most of the more mature anime seems to be original stories
with no manga origins (Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, Lain, Big O,
yada yada yada)
Question though-if anime is considered just for kids, why the new influx of
anime shows that come on late at night? (Excel Saga, for example, aired at
two in the morning) Do they get alot of kids and teens even at those hours,
or are late-night anime considered "okay" to like?
All in all this isn't too surprising, because here in America we have a bit
of a screening process-a show has to be liscened and/or popular enough for
someone to fansub before most of us can enjoy it. And shows that are
explicitly for kids tend not to make the cut (unless they're being dubbed
for US TV) There are *alot* of kiddie shows out there we never see, and
these make up the majority of the stuff on japanese TV.
-Wyvern
Ethan Hammond
more since it is like $70 per DVD/LD/Tape.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
> All in all this isn't too surprising, because here in America we have a bit
> of a screening process-a show has to be liscened and/or popular enough for
> someone to fansub before most of us can enjoy it. And shows that are
> explicitly for kids tend not to make the cut (unless they're being dubbed
> for US TV) There are *alot* of kiddie shows out there we never see, and
> these make up the majority of the stuff on japanese TV.
Of course a lot of stuff that makes it to US that we consider adult anime is
still considered teenager of kid stuff in Japan. They just don't freak out
as much over violence and nudity as we do in the US. I mean even Bastard
was in Shonen Jump until 2001 and it had some pretty hardcore violence and
sex. Now it is in Ultra Jump which is targeted at men.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Generally anime in Japan is considered to be for kids and teenagers (Yes I
> know there are exceptions esp. hentai but in *general*). Basically it is
> perfectly acceptable for adults to read manga but not really acceptable for
> them to watch most anime. Basically as one Japanese girl told me, if you
> are an adult in Japan and tell people that you watch anime a lot then
> you'll be given very funny looks. However if you are an adult in Japan and
Yes, like comic books in America, anime in Japan
is considered something you're expected to grow out of.
(And expectations are big in Japanese society.)
> go to a manga store and buy manga to read on the way to work, well that's
> considered pretty normal. However anime **imagery** is considered fine for
Yet even that is fading away.
The oft-seen scene of salarymen reading manga while going to work
is being replaced by cell-phones that can text, web-surf, play games, etc.
> adults as well. For example a business man is not going to be embarrassed
> to have an anime character on his Visa card.
>
> I think one of the reasons for this is that most anime (excepting things
> like hentai) are made from manga series that target younger audiences. For
> example I read a lot of manga that is aimed at the older teenage female
> audience and not a lot of that is made into anime besides a couple of OAVs
> here and there if one is lucky.
>
You got it.
Ratings and merchandise sales are more lucrative
for the teens and kids demographics with free money
(since they don't have any mortgages to pay, tuition, etc).
Laters. =)
STan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
S.SubZero
I think that in the USA, the general belief is that any animated program is
by default geared towards kids. In Japan though, they don't make that
distinction the same way, so an animation can be designed for an adult crowd
and adults will understand and appreciate it. They don't have anime
broadcasts at 2am hoping to score big with the kid demographic.
Anime also has it's categories like anything else. Someone may like
Chobits, but not like Gundam stuff. The drama, the comedy, the sci-fi..
It's all there. If you're 25 and you tell your hip Japanese 25-year old
friends that you're a huge Pokemon fan.. yeah, it's gonna be a little weird.
But they may love Record of Lodoss War, or Bubblegum Crisis. Asking about
those things is like here asking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer or COPS or
something. Many of my friends have no issues with saying how much they love
that Buffy show. To me personally, it's excrutiatingly bad, and I consider
most shows like it to be similarly bad. Then again, it's just my opinion.
There's nothing wrong with liking anime. They don't have stores in
Akihabara which *specialize* in hentai stuff because they think people will
be too ashamed to walk in the door (That was a pretty intense hurdle for me
the first time actually). You like what you like, and as long as you aren't
hurting anyone, they'll be glad to sell you whatever you want.
I read a long time ago that anime was a good alternative to live action
because alot of times, to make a really good movie, it requires a crazy
budget and alot of on-location shooting, which in Japan can be tricky if
it's not a movie about Japan. The minute you want to film a desert, you
gotta pack up, get on a plane, and GO to a desert. You want tropical
jungles, you gotta go there. If you're a Japanese scriptwriter, and you
want to make an Indiana Jones clone, you'll probably seriously consider just
animating the thing, cuz you can knock it out without alot of overhead and
without having to leave town. You'll notice that the number of anime with
wacky sci-fi fantasy settings and characters outweighs anime where everyone
is just normal and living in downtown Kyoto or something.
-SSZ
Uiler
>
> "Uiler" <uil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3d94...@clarion.carno.net.au...
>> Generally anime in Japan is considered to be for kids and teenagers (Yes
>> I
>> know there are exceptions esp. hentai but in *general*). Basically it is
>> perfectly acceptable for adults to read manga but not really acceptable
> for
>> them to watch most anime.
>
> Which if you think about it, makes no sense whatsoever. Aren't most anime
> just animated versians of one manga or another? Why the distinction then?
> It's the same story, same charecters, same everything (mostly) just with
> color, sound and motion.
First of all when something makes the transition from manga to anime it
gets toned down a lot eg. X. The second thing is that as I said most of
the manga that gets made into anime tend to be the manga that targets kids
and teens. There is a lot more manga than shoujo and shounen. There's
stuff for seinen - young men, stuff for housewives, stuff for businessmen
etc. That stuff tends not to be made into anime. I have no hard proof but
the impression I get at looking at the manga in Japan is that the
proportion of manga that gets made into anime is a small proportion of the
overall manga market and it tends to lean to the youngish side.
>
> Basically as one Japanese girl told me, if you
>> are an adult in Japan and tell people that you watch anime a lot then
>> you'll be given very funny looks. However if you are an adult in Japan
> and
>> go to a manga store and buy manga to read on the way to work, well that's
>> considered pretty normal.
>
> However anime **imagery** is considered fine for
>> adults as well. For example a business man is not going to be
>> embarrassed to have an anime character on his Visa card.
>
> Again, seems like a silly distinction to me. Then again, I guess if you
> have Vash the Stampede on your Visa card, you can always say you're just a
> fan of the Trigun manga reguardless of weather or not that's true.
I think it would more likely to be a picture of Doraemon on the Visa card
than Trigun. As I said the impression I get of the Trigun manga is that it
is aimed at young teens.
>
>> I think one of the reasons for this is that most anime (excepting things
>> like hentai) are made from manga series that target younger audiences.
> For
>> example I read a lot of manga that is aimed at the older teenage female
>> audience and not a lot of that is made into anime besides a couple of
>> OAVs here and there if one is lucky.
>>
>> Uiler
>
> This is true; most of the more mature anime seems to be original stories
> with no manga origins (Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, Lain, Big O,
> yada yada yada)
>
> Question though-if anime is considered just for kids, why the new influx
> of anime shows that come on late at night? (Excel Saga, for example, aired
> at two in the morning) Do they get alot of kids and teens even at those
> hours, or are late-night anime considered "okay" to like?
I don't know - maybe the stuff aimed at late at night is aimed at an older
age group. But I also think we must remember that the stuff that gets
imported over to America is but a small fraction of what shows in Japan and
they probably choose the stuff that is more likely to appeal to the
American anime fan taste. The fact that these shows show late at night in
Japan probably indicates that they don't expect them to have a wide appeal
to the general anime watching Japanese audience. For example there are
cartoons in America that aren't just "kiddie" stuff but they form a small
proportion of the overall American animation market and so the general
impression that people get in America is that American animation in general
is "kiddie" stuff.
Uiler
Uiler
I would be suspicious if it was just one person. However I have talked to
several Japanese people, a couple of whom are really into anime (they *are*
otakuish BTW) and one who is really into manga and my friends when they've
come back from Japan and all of them agree with this - that generally in
Japan anime is considered "kiddie" stuff. They also tell me Disney is
considered anime in Japan.
>
> Anime is generally considered for kids and teenagers as was said, but
> contrary to popular belief there are adults and business men who watch
> broadcast anime. This is not to say you'll find them in stores buying OVA
> and the like. The market would be huge if they did. Remember, even in
> Japan a anime which does spectacular might sell 30,000 copies MAX.Usually
> 5-10,000 is considered doing great. Call them casual watchers. A lot of
> this is younger generation adults of the tech age. Computers, multimedia,
> video game and web design etc. This audience numbers in the millions. Are
> they otaku? Not even in the sense that it is used here in this group. More
> than likely they will know only about the most popular stuff and mostly
> only in theatres or on television. They also don't go out of their way to
> find stuff.
>
> It seems like everyone I ran into has seen a little Bebop and of course
> Miyazaki works and other major films. These "casual" watchers are also a
> high spending demographic. You can tell by what is advertised.
>
> Still it's becming more common in the tech age to find adults with cross
> platform interests in media. Far from the unshaven, filthy otaku image
> commonly referred to, but a new net saavy business class of consumer.
Probably, but that is like how a lot of the tech-savy 20 something single
males with high disposable income in America today are into anime as well.
However it doesn't change the opinion of the general populace in America
that anime is "kiddie" stuff (or violent porn). For example if we look at
the top 10 anime shows in Japan you are not going to find one which is not
aimed at either the kiddie market, the family market, or the lower teen
market. If this trend you describe holds true perhaps in a decade or so
but that's like saying that in ten years or so anime in America might be
mainstream. It doesn't mean that it is now.
Uiler
Lee Ratner
Japan is not a nation of anime fans and most people view as just
another form of entertainment. Manga reading is a very common habit
though for people of all ages but older readers are mainly men and not
women.
There is a much larger devote fan community though in Japan and it
is this community that buys OAVs and DVD releases of TV series and the
rest of the merchandise. Basically think of it as a large trekkie like
community.
Animeg3282
>Which if you think about it, makes no sense whatsoever. Aren't most anime
>just animated versians of one manga or another? Why the distinction then?
>It's the same story, same charecters, same everything (mostly) just with
>
>color, sound and motion.
>
There's a difference between Hime-chan's Ribbon and Dance til Tommorow(I don't
remember the Japanese title Asatte Dance? maybe?) Like Hime-chan is a fun
bouncy manga for girls and Dance Til Tommorow is more adult with some sexual
situations, but it's not like porn or anything. You know..I like stuff like
Maison Ikkoku and Dance Til Tommorow(someone says they are both seinen 'young
men's manga) I wonder if we'll get more of that kind of stuff, and I wonder if
there are any 'josei' (women's manga) gonna be released here?
Hana no Kaitou
http://peachcoloredsky.keenspace.com <--- Archives up.
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282/ <---Fancy Lala Club! Back to
original page.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fancy_lala <mailing list for Lala fans
Uiler
> Japan is not a nation of anime fans and most people view as just
> another form of entertainment. Manga reading is a very common habit
> though for people of all ages but older readers are mainly men and not
> women.
> There is a much larger devote fan community though in Japan and it
> is this community that buys OAVs and DVD releases of TV series and the
> rest of the merchandise. Basically think of it as a large trekkie like
> community.
Hmmm...This reminds of the statement someone once made about how a lot of
the shounen DVDs and videos in Japan were probably bought by female yaoi
doujinshin artists. No, I have absolutely no idea how true that statement
is, but it's still a funny thought. Ranks up there in my opinion with the
tale of the female yaoi mangaka who went on a tour of sex shops and S&M
clubs of New York which resulted in lots of bemused sex shop operators
watching a group of nicely dressed polite young Japanese ladies giggling
over ahem "accessories". Probably just a myth, but still funny. Actually
I CAN imagine them doing that though ^_^
Uiler
Isaac Kuo
>There's nothing wrong with liking anime. They don't have stores in
>Akihabara which *specialize* in hentai stuff because they think people will
>be too ashamed to walk in the door (That was a pretty intense hurdle for me
>the first time actually).
They do. Well, off of the main street, if you want to get technical,
but not as far off as Gamers.
Isaac Kuo
Chris Kern
Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain> posted the following:
>
> I used to think that anime was very much a part of Japanese culture and
>that a very large percentage of their TV and film was animated.
Not really. There are more animated shows running in Japan than in
the US (usually 3 or 4 a day on the networks). But they're pretty
much all intended for kids
There are a few animated shows that have a wider audience, most
notably Crayon Shin-Chan, Sazae-san, Meitantei Conan, and Chibi
Maruko-chan (which are all on either Friday or Sunday around the same
time IIRC)
Manga is different, plenty of people read those regardless of age
group.
> So, can somene who knows clear this up for me? This has totally
>shattered my image of anime since I had believed very different for a long
>time now (shows how much I know).
> Thanks!
As someone else said, anime is "not ok" and manga is "ok". Of course,
these are just generalizations; depending on who you are talking to or
with, your experience may vary. Remember, there are otaku in Japan as
well.
-Chris
Tiger Feet
> Question though-if anime is considered just for kids, why the new influx of
> anime shows that come on late at night? (Excel Saga, for example, aired at
> two in the morning) Do they get alot of kids and teens even at those hours,
> or are late-night anime considered "okay" to like?
ISTR reading in the Anime Encyclopedia that "late-night anime" are
actually the last resting place of what used to be known as OAVs.
Nobody is expected to stay up and watch them, but fans are expected to
record them. In other words, the network pays for the series, and the
fans supply their own tape, saving the producers a few bucks per
"sale".
I do remember seeing an article in Newtype a couple of years which
confirmed all the above.
Tiger Feet
Uiler
> It's an art form, like anything else.
>
> I think that in the USA, the general belief is that any animated program
> is
> by default geared towards kids. In Japan though, they don't make that
> distinction the same way, so an animation can be designed for an adult
> crowd
> and adults will understand and appreciate it. They don't have anime
> broadcasts at 2am hoping to score big with the kid demographic.
>
> Anime also has it's categories like anything else. Someone may like
> Chobits, but not like Gundam stuff. The drama, the comedy, the sci-fi..
> It's all there. If you're 25 and you tell your hip Japanese 25-year old
> friends that you're a huge Pokemon fan.. yeah, it's gonna be a little
> weird.
> But they may love Record of Lodoss War, or Bubblegum Crisis. Asking about
> those things is like here asking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer or COPS or
> something. Many of my friends have no issues with saying how much they
> love
> that Buffy show. To me personally, it's excrutiatingly bad, and I
> consider
> most shows like it to be similarly bad. Then again, it's just my opinion.
Err. Lodoss Wars and Bubblegum Crisis as examples of anime that are made
for adults? I can definitely see Cowboy Bebop for example as an anime made
for more mature adult audiences or perhaps MI, but Lodoss Wars and
Bubblegum Crisis? Those are made for the young teenage male audience. We
aren't talking about being adult and saying you like Pokemon not being
looked at kindly in Japan but being an adult and saying you like well anime
like Lodoss Wars and Bubblegum Crisis that isn't looked too kindly at in
Japan.
Uiler
Blade
The real truth is somewhere inbetween those two extremes, and depends a lot
on which anime you're talking about and how you define "children" (since
there are lots of shows aimed at teenagers).
Only hard-core fans are going to pay the prices Japanese companies charge
to own anime (like OAVs), but there are theatrical movies (especially but
not limited to Miyazaki ones) that many, many people see. Also, a lot of
(not all) people read manga even if they don't watch anime.
I expect a lot of the "adults don't watch anime" syndrome comes from the
fact that after they leave university, a lot of Japanese never have TIME to
watch anime. The men (archetypically) work all day and drink until late,
and their days off are the only time they can spend with their family. The
women are (again, archetypically) preoccupied with being full-time mothers.
Not a whole lot of time for catching anime.
Which doesn't stop a lot of anime from being watched anyway. The hoopla
over, say, Evangelion didn't come up because onl;y otaku were watching it.
Blade
The Skeleton Man
Very good points. I did however say that anime was aimed at kids and
teenagers. I guess what I was going against was because of this tech saavy
young adult casual watching audience being so large, the stigma that an
adult viewer of anime would be looked upon as an otaku (in th enegative
sense) is fading. This is not to say the stuff they watch would be aimed
directly at them, at least not originally. Bebop for example ran twice
before skyrocketing success. It found an audience because of themes the tech
saavy young adult crown could latch onto.
Adam Haun
Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
<snip>
For comparison, the top 25 grossing American movies of all time[1]:
Total Year
Gross Movie Released
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1. $601 Titanic 1997
2. $461 Star Wars 1977
3. $435 E.T. 1982
4. $431 Star Wars: The Phantom Menace 1999
5. $404 Spider-Man 2002
6. $357 Jurassic Park 1993
7. $330 Forrest Gump 1994
8. $318 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone 2001
9. $313 The Lord of the Rings:
The Fellowship of the Ring 2001
10. $313 The Lion King 1994
11. $309 Return of the Jedi 1983
12. $306 Independence Day 1996
13. $302 Star Wars: Attack of the Clones 2002
14. $293 The Sixth Sense 1999
15. $290 The Empire Strikes Back 1980
16. $285 Home Alone 1990
17. $268 Shrek 2001
18. $260 Jaws 1975
19. $260 How the Grinch Stole Christmas 2000
20. $256 Monsters, Inc. 2001
21. $251 Batman 1989
22. $250 Men in Black 1997
23. $246 Toy Story 2 1999
24. $242 Raiders of the Lost Ark 1981
25. $242 Twister 1996
Note that nearly every single one of these is directly aimed at
children or teenagers(maybe all, haven't seen Gump or Sense). Things
aimed at teenagers will still sell to older adults here, although from
the others posts in the thread it seems that this is not true in
Japan. Interesting.
Does anyone know of any anime(or even U.S. movies) that *are*
targetted at a much older audience? I have trouble coming up with even
one. Maybe some of the "chick flicks"?
--
Adam Haun
ad...@infinity.idleplay.net
Uiler
so concerned over whether the anime they are watching is considered "adult"
or not. If someone says "Hah, it's kids stuff" to me I just blink and go
"And so". "How can you watch that kids' stuff?" "Because I like it.
Isn't that all it matters? You watch those stupid action movies where the
hero always wins and can't act." OTOH I like being different and weird so
maybe it's just me. I think it basically comes down to this - you
shouldn't watch something simply because for some reason you think it is
"superior" or not. So most people in Japan consider anime in the same way
a lot of Americans consider cartoons (though not quite to as such an
extreme level). So if you are an adult in Japan who really likes anime
they'll look at you the same way as most Americans will look at an adult
who is really into say comic books. Maybe I'm mistaken but I do get the
impression that a lot of people think anime is "superior" to American
animation because it is more "adult" and so watching anime is "adult". I
think it just seems more adult because the Japanese are not so concerned
with putting mature themes/violence/sex in stuff aimed at kids and also
because the oriental idea of morality is of a different form from the good
vs evil kind and is much more flexible and practical which is why you often
get "mature" things like sympathetic villains. I'm sure there are a lot
more reasons but I doubt that the villains in Rurouni Kenshin were so
brilliant because the mangaka was thinking his audience consisted mainly of
20 something salary men and so he shouldn't write "kiddie" stuff (esp
considering it was published in a magazine with "shounen" ie. young boy in
the title...). But seriously some of the stuff in a lot of anime is rather
aimed at a younger way of thinking.
For example recently I decided not to watch Marmelade Boy. I didn't reject
it because I thought "Aha, it's just a kids show." I rejected it because I
don't like soap operas too much and though the boys in it are cute, I'm 22.
I feel more like going and tousling their hair rather than going "They're
hot." So the show just didn't appeal to me, though I do suppose it did
come down somewhat to the fact that I am an adult. I'm sure that if I was
say 7 years younger...However I'm sure there are adults it does appeal to
and that's fine. A lot of shounen shows I used to like as a kid or would
have liked a few years ago I don't really like anymore because I roll my
eyes at the teenage hero's "courage" and "spirit" (which I like to
personally call stupidity myself - "Oh yeah in the real world..." ). But
that's just because over the years I've changed and become much more
cynical. So in a way I did reject it because I had become more mature but
I didn't reject it because it was a "kid's show" but because it no longer
appealed to me. However the thing is each person matures in a different
way and a lot of people probably mature in such a way as to still allow
them to enjoy such shows. If it is a kid's show I like I'll watch it just
like I'll reject "adult" shows if they don't appeal to me.
Basically who cares if the Japanese think anime is kid's stuff anyway? If
you like it then watch it. If you don't like it then don't.
Uiler
Chris Kern
the following:
There are a couple of stores where the front of the store is normal
games, but then as you go farther back into the store there is more
and more hentai stuff until you get to the back, which is all hentai.
-Chris
Chris Kern
Also, I think that most people would react strangely if you suggested
that there was a difference between Japanese and American animation
(or if you tried to use the word "anime" to refer to Japanese
animation alone).
-Chris
Raymond Chuang
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.0209270504270.26178-100000@roundtable...
> Yet even that is fading away.
> The oft-seen scene of salarymen reading manga while going to work
> is being replaced by cell-phones that can text, web-surf, play games, etc.
Actually, Shueisha's SHOUEN JUMP still sells about 5 million copies per
week. The manga anthology is by far the most popular in Japan--and it has a
readership that transcends both age and gender (there's a huge adult
readership for Shounen Jump by both men and women that far exceeds all but a
very few adult-oriented manga anthologies).
One serial in Shounen Jump (Osamu Akimoto's series about the antics of a
group of police officers at a police box in Tokyo) has been running non-stop
since 1976 (it's up to 130 volumes of collected tankoubon volumes). I love
that series for its constant potshots at contemporary Japanese pop culture.
^_^
--
Raymond Chuang
Mountain View, CA USA
Animeg3282
I don't get it either. I *like* kid's stuff. I *like* cartoons, and anime is
just an excuse to watch very interesting cartoons. Like we wouldn't have
created say, (you guys all know what I'm going to say) Fancy Lala(you knew it!)
here, because "A girl, becoming a model? Isn't that a poor role model?". Also,
anime has continunity and that is good. I like TV shows w/ continutity but
don't like to watch Tv, so needto get them on DVD...
Uiler
Something I forgot to add in my last message. Firstly a lot of people seem
to be judging whether and anime show is for adults or for children on the
standard set in **America**. Hmm, shows for children in America don't
allow these kind of things, therefore this show from Japan which does allow
these things must be adult. However what we are talking about here is the
**Japanese** perception of what things a child should be allowed to see,
not what the American standards are. So if you want to judge who a show is
considered for in Japan you will have to judge it by Japanese standards,
not American standards. And the impression I get is what Japanese consider
suitable for children and young teens is very different from what is
considered suitable in America.
Geez. I think I'll probably get a lot of flames now ^_^. Well, off to
find the asbestos suit...
Uiler
The Skeleton Man
> children or teenagers(maybe all, haven't seen Gump or Sense). Things
> aimed at teenagers will still sell to older adults here, although from
> the others posts in the thread it seems that this is not true in
> Japan. Interesting.
>
> Does anyone know of any anime(or even U.S. movies) that *are*
> targetted at a much older audience? I have trouble coming up with even
> one. Maybe some of the "chick flicks"?
>
> --
> Adam Haun
> ad...@infinity.idleplay.net
Well in The US you will look mostly to older movies.. Bogie, Cagney and
those guys..
Still there's stuff like Chinatown, Butch Cassidy
Newer stuff maybe Unforgiven or What Lies Beneath, The Gift, The Banger
Sisters?
In anime it would be a lot more difficult. Only Sanctuary, Perfect Blue,
Millenium Actress and Silent Service come to mind. Those are a few that I
would think wouldb over kids heads or just plain boring. (The realistic
politics of sanctaury or the realisitic Navy technical BS of SS) Although
the manga may be more adult targetted than the anime version for SS.
When I was in Japan I saw an anime,and was told is was very popular, about
three office women in their 30's. Very soap opera like. Almost wonder why it
was animated, but they kind of did things like Omohide Poro Poro or Whisper
of th Heart and show what they are thinking and stuff. It was interesting,
though not likely the type of show to ebver make it over here.
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I made a childrens movie?
Chris Kern
the following:
>Basically who cares if the Japanese think anime is kid's stuff anyway? If
>you like it then watch it. If you don't like it then don't.
It possibly comes from a need to justify one's hobbies. While some
people may enjoy having an eccentric or unusual hobby, most people
don't like having a ridiculed hobby. Perhaps they think that if
Japanese people are accepting of anime and otaku, that somehow makes
their own hobby have worth.
-Chris
S.SubZero
news:acc26c07.02092...@posting.google.com...
No, I am saying they have them there because it's not a big deal. The first
time I saw one, it wasn't like some kind of seedy hidden back alley place,
it was right on the main street, between a fast food place and an
electronics store. And the agenda wasn't hidden either, there were all the
typical "this place is all hentai" themed posters and scrolls decorating the
front. The place was packed too. Not that I uh.. went in there.. uh.. no..
didn't spend thousands of yen there.. no sir. Nope.
-SSZ
S.SubZero
> for adults? I can definitely see Cowboy Bebop for example as an anime
made
> for more mature adult audiences or perhaps MI, but Lodoss Wars and
> Bubblegum Crisis? Those are made for the young teenage male audience.
We
> aren't talking about being adult and saying you like Pokemon not being
> looked at kindly in Japan but being an adult and saying you like well
anime
> like Lodoss Wars and Bubblegum Crisis that isn't looked too kindly at in
> Japan.
>
That's why I used a 25-year old person as my example. If you take the
number "25" and subtract based on the year the particular anime in question
was shown, you get a number in the "teenage" range. The fact you like an
anime they may have seen and liked when they were young can be a GREAT
conversation starter. Heck, if someone in Japan asked me "hey, you like
Star Wars, the original trilogy?" then that person and I will be discussing
the Empire and Leia's metal bikini over many cups of sake.
-SSZ
Ethan Hammond
> > They do. Well, off of the main street, if you want to get technical,
> > but not as far off as Gamers.
>
> No, I am saying they have them there because it's not a big deal. The first
> time I saw one, it wasn't like some kind of seedy hidden back alley place,
> it was right on the main street, between a fast food place and an
> electronics store. And the agenda wasn't hidden either, there were all the
> typical "this place is all hentai" themed posters and scrolls decorating the
> front. The place was packed too. Not that I uh.. went in there.. uh.. no..
> didn't spend thousands of yen there.. no sir. Nope.
Its not that hentai isn't a big deal so much as a lot of salarymen will
buy the stuff and keep it secret. Its the same as adult themed stores in
the US, which aren't all that seedy or hidden anymore.
Ethan Hammond
>
> It's an art form, like anything else.
>
> I think that in the USA, the general belief is that any animated program is
> by default geared towards kids. In Japan though, they don't make that
> distinction the same way, so an animation can be designed for an adult crowd
> and adults will understand and appreciate it. They don't have anime
> broadcasts at 2am hoping to score big with the kid demographic.
I hate to say it but I think Americans have become more open minded on
animated programs than Japan. In America it isn't a big deal to be
25 and watching anime, but in Japan you could not openly enjoy anime
as a hobby. I think if the Japanese realized that Americans were okay
with older people watching anime then they would be too. Or at least
that is my theory. As for the anime broadcasts at 2am those are really
few and far between and usually score fairly awful ratings.
Ethan Hammond
> I don't get it either. I *like* kid's stuff. I *like* cartoons, and anime is
> just an excuse to watch very interesting cartoons. Like we wouldn't have
> created say, (you guys all know what I'm going to say) Fancy Lala(you knew it!)
> here, because "A girl, becoming a model? Isn't that a poor role model?". Also,
> anime has continunity and that is good. I like TV shows w/ continutity but
> don't like to watch Tv, so needto get them on DVD...
Exactly I collect Transformers, watch wrestling, read manga, watch anime, play
videogames and I don't care who knows it. A lot of people are closet fans
and will talk about these things when they realize other people like them.
Especially once you get to college and away from the klique high school bs.
Ramen Junkie XP
news:q1Tk9.122744$U_.1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> I used to think that anime was very much a part of Japanese culture
and
> that a very large percentage of their TV and film was animated. However,
I
> was recently talking with a friend of mine who had recently lived in Japan
> for a year and he tells me that the only people who watch anime (aside
from
> Miyazaki films, which is comparable to Disney) are otaku (and _not_ in the
> North American sense!). So much so that if I were to tell anyone in Japan
> that I liked anime, they would automatically assume that I was an otaku
> 'cause no one else watches anime (besides kids).
> So, can somene who knows clear this up for me? This has totally
> time now (shows how much I know).
You should probably know most of your "image of anime" is probably massibly
inaccurate if it is even remotely like most of the people here.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Wyvern wrote:
>
> >
> > "Uiler" <uil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:3d94...@clarion.carno.net.au...
> >> Generally anime in Japan is considered to be for kids and teenagers (Yes
> >> I
> >> know there are exceptions esp. hentai but in *general*). Basically it is
> >> perfectly acceptable for adults to read manga but not really acceptable
> > for
> >> them to watch most anime.
> >
> > Which if you think about it, makes no sense whatsoever. Aren't most anime
> > just animated versians of one manga or another? Why the distinction then?
> > It's the same story, same charecters, same everything (mostly) just with
> > color, sound and motion.
>
> First of all when something makes the transition from manga to anime it
> gets toned down a lot eg. X. The second thing is that as I said most of
>
That's the general feeling even among manga readers
- that the anime version is usually a "kiddified" version.
So even a lot of manga readers of a series
don't feel like watching its anime version.
> the manga that gets made into anime tend to be the manga that targets kids
> and teens. There is a lot more manga than shoujo and shounen. There's
> stuff for seinen - young men, stuff for housewives, stuff for businessmen
> etc. That stuff tends not to be made into anime. I have no hard proof but
> the impression I get at looking at the manga in Japan is that the
> proportion of manga that gets made into anime is a small proportion of the
> overall manga market and it tends to lean to the youngish side.
Yep, a lot of people may read manga
but may not care about anime.
> >
> > However anime **imagery** is considered fine for
> >> adults as well. For example a business man is not going to be
> >> embarrassed to have an anime character on his Visa card.
> >
> > Again, seems like a silly distinction to me. Then again, I guess if you
> > have Vash the Stampede on your Visa card, you can always say you're just a
> > fan of the Trigun manga reguardless of weather or not that's true.
>
> I think it would more likely to be a picture of Doraemon on the Visa card
> than Trigun. As I said the impression I get of the Trigun manga is that it
> is aimed at young teens.
Some shows are more acceptable than others.
Like classic Disney and WB toons can be OK paraphernalia design,
but anything else could be considered childish.
Laters. =)
STan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
Since they have shops for used sailor fuku and soiled panties,
I don't think anything is too shameful.
Fata Morgana
"Chris Kern" <ke...@grinnell.edu> wrote in message
news:3d94a1ab...@news.newsguy.com...
>
> It possibly comes from a need to justify one's hobbies. While some
> people may enjoy having an eccentric or unusual hobby, most people
> don't like having a ridiculed hobby. Perhaps they think that if
> Japanese people are accepting of anime and otaku, that somehow makes
> their own hobby have worth.
>
I think that to a certain degree, it's a kind of excuse people give
themselves so that they don't have to be ashamed of liking animation. Like
when I lent a friend of mine some of the Ranma 1/2 manga. Her brother
teased her about reading comics and she said, "It's not a comic, it's a
_graphic novel_" Many people do the same thing with the words "anime" and
"cartoons" -- "It's not a cartoon, it's an _anime_" As if there were any
difference!
All that it goes to show is that there's a stigma attached to animation and
comics in this country, and as a consequence people try to find a way to
rationalize their attraction to these things.
Fata Morgana
--
http://www.jazzmess.com/ - The Jazz Messengers: a viewers' guide to Cowboy
Bebop
http://www.cowboybebop.org/ - archive of Cowboy Bebop.com: "wow, you did
the good job!" - Kengo Watanabe, original webmaster commenting on the
archive
Uiler
>
> That's why I used a 25-year old person as my example. If you take the
> number "25" and subtract based on the year the particular anime in
> question
> was shown, you get a number in the "teenage" range. The fact you like an
> anime they may have seen and liked when they were young can be a GREAT
> conversation starter. Heck, if someone in Japan asked me "hey, you like
> Star Wars, the original trilogy?" then that person and I will be
> discussing the Empire and Leia's metal bikini over many cups of sake.
>
> -SSZ
Oh, I see what you mean now. Gotcha.
Uiler
Uiler
This reminds me of how in Japan you do not tell people that you cosplay.
Lots of people cosplay but it's not something you'll tell your workmates
and your non-cosplaying non-anime friends because it's kindof embarassing
because it's too "kiddie". I think they look the same way at dressing up
on Halloween. Whilst in America generally people are quite open about it
even if it is frowned upon. I think perhaps in Japan there is much more
pressure to "conform" than in the West. Being individualistic and snubbing
convention is often looked upon as a strength here whilst in Japan it is
not so easy. However Japan is changing, though slowly.
Uiler
Ethan Hammond
I am in concurrance.
Uiler
It is a statement attributed to Nov Takahashi from a panel at "Nan Desu Kan
Go!"
> Besides the history of Cosplaying in Japan, he also enlightened us on the
> restrictions on costuming in Japan. Costuming and Fandom in general is
not
> generally viewed well by the general public. Even at the conventions,
> cosplayers are often restricted to a small area where the contests are
> held. Photographs may only be taken in a specific area. Also, cosplayers
> may not have any part of their costume that projects more than 12² from
> their body, including wings, wands, or armor. Costumes that do not meet
> this restriction may only be shown in the contest and oversized pieces may
> not be worn/carried in the cosplay area. Some of these restrictions have
> arisen as the result of media influences. There were cases in the past
> where crimes have been attributed to fans. Also, when photography was not
> restricted, people were taking pictures of young girls in costume and
> publishing them in adult magazines, without consent. These connections
> between fandom and criminal activities have led to the current
restrictions
> on costuming in Japan. Many fans in Japan do not let their
> friends/family/coworkers know that they are fans. SF/Fantasy/Anime are
> seen as the pursuits of children and to admit that you engage in such
> activities is admitting that you are still a child.
Uiler
Jules Dubois
@aol.compelsia says...
> >Basically who cares if the Japanese think anime is kid's stuff anyway? If
> >you like it then watch it. If you don't like it then don't.
>
> I don't get it either.
We all have to decide what we like and what we don't. Some, myself
included, also decide what we think is not worth watching, even for
others.
> I *like* kid's stuff.
I like intelligent kid's stuff; I'll have to exclude things like The
Smurfs.
> I *like* cartoons [...]
I love cartoons.
> [...] anime is
> just an excuse to watch very interesting cartoons.
My opinion is it's easier to find, in the U.S. at least, a good Japanese
cartoon than it is to find a good American cartoon.
This is not to say Americans are incapable of producing excellent animated
products. I like Batman: The Animated Series. I think The Simpsons, even
if the in-betweeners are Korean, is a world-class American cartoon. Walt
Disney's Fantasia...
> [...] Fancy Lala [...]
Fancy Lala is a charming series.
> (you knew it!)
We all have our favorites.
> I like TV shows w/ continutity [...]
TV has to be really good to make it worthwhile to put up with commercials.
Betty Lee
+ It seems like everyone I ran into has seen a little Bebop and of course
+ Miyazaki works and other major films. These "casual" watchers are also a
+ high spending demographic. You can tell by what is advertised.
I read something that said, for the United States, the "high spending
demographic" (for entertainment) is supposed to be young (kids and
teenagers). If that's the case in Japan, saying that the high spending
demographic watches anime might coincide with (rather than contradict)
the perception that anime is for kids and teenagers.
--
Betty Lee
bett...@Stanford.EDU
Betty Lee
+ Does anyone know of any anime(or even U.S. movies) that *are*
+ targetted at a much older audience? I have trouble coming up with even
+ one. Maybe some of the "chick flicks"?
*boggle* "Chick flicks" are generally aimed at teenage or young-adult
girls. That's why they're "chick flicks". Maybe it's pointless to aim
at anyone older than 22? Maybe our tastes in video entertainment stop
maturing at 22? What would be considered appropriate for (or aimed at)
a 60-year-old that isn't appropriate for a 22-year-old? I mean, things
like soap operas make great trashy nursing-home fare as well as great
trashy college dorm fare.
--
Betty Lee
bett...@Stanford.EDU
The Skeleton Man
"Betty Lee" <bett...@Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
news:an2u9l$744$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
That is certainly the largest demographic in both markets. I was generally,
in that post, talking about the tech saavy net surfing adult crowd which is
likely next in line or soon will be. They can be anywhere from 25 -40 years
old. They often work in new companies and don't have to wear suits and
stuff. Same as in the US really.
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I changed my sig?
Chibi-Light
Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
> I used to think that anime was very much a part of Japanese culture and
>that a very large percentage of their TV and film was animated. However, I
>was recently talking with a friend of mine who had recently lived in Japan
>for a year and he tells me that the only people who watch anime (aside from
>Miyazaki films, which is comparable to Disney) are otaku (and _not_ in the
>North American sense!). So much so that if I were to tell anyone in Japan
>that I liked anime, they would automatically assume that I was an otaku
>'cause no one else watches anime (besides kids).
> So, can somene who knows clear this up for me? This has totally
>shattered my image of anime since I had believed very different for a long
>time now (shows how much I know).
> Thanks!
I dunno... I had a Japanese exchange student look at my CDs once and I
had some Yoko Kanno and supposedly"The Most Famous Seiyuu" Megumi
Hayashibara in there, she didn't know who either of them were. It
does not bode well!!
CL
"Outrageous song, I love it."
-Mike Keneally on Yoko Kanno's "Tank!"
To reply by email, remove "YUM-SPAM" from address.
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> Since they have shops for used sailor fuku and soiled panties,
> I don't think anything is too shameful.
Okay, I've got to ask. What's fuku?
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"S.SubZero" <n...@spam.pls> wrote in message
news:3d942898$1...@nntp2.nac.net...
is
> by default geared towards kids. In Japan though, they don't make that
> distinction the same way, so an animation can be designed for an adult
crowd
> and adults will understand and appreciate it. They don't have anime
> broadcasts at 2am hoping to score big with the kid demographic.
Actually, didn't Sailor Moon premiere in North America in a timeslot of
2:00am? I remember reading about that back in early '96. A lot of hardcore
North American fans (however that happened...) were complaining about it,
saying that of course it had poor ratings with a time slot like that...
Ethan Hammond
> I dunno... I had a Japanese exchange student look at my CDs once and I
> had some Yoko Kanno and supposedly"The Most Famous Seiyuu" Megumi
> Hayashibara in there, she didn't know who either of them were. It
> does not bode well!!
I used to hang out on the Japanese servers on PSO and most of the
Japanese players knew who Megumi was. They would say things like,
"She is the most popular actress," and what not. The best was one
guy was really into Bastard so he was fun to talk too. I suspect
the exchange student you met is just not into anime or jpop.
The Skeleton Man
"Chibi-Light" <chibiw...@YUM-SPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d95208c...@news.earthlink.net...
I don't know, I've had Japanese look at my collection which has Toshinobu
Kubota, S.E.S., Baho and Pysche Char in it. They didn't know who they were
either. These artists have no connection to anime.
How many people here know Jonathan Butler, Goerge Howard or Stanley Clarke?
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I listend to Psyche 2 Char?
Uiler
perhaps Western anime fans tend to think that all the Japanese are anime
crazy. So Megumi Hayabashari for example has the same status as say Celine
Dion in America. No I am not saying Megumi Hayabashari is anything like
Celine Dion but rather that even if they hate her they will still have
heard of her and know who she is even if they are 60 years old and hate
anything not written 200 years ago. So of course you know a Japanese
student in America in his/her twenties, I mean of course they've been
watching Inu Yasha and HunterxHunter and well all the latest anime out.
Whereas the impression I get is that the Japanese are a lot more like us
and while there is a definite group of hardcore anime fans which is
probably much larger than the group in the West most adult Japanese at
least probably are casual watchers, going to see the latest Miyazaki film,
maybe seeing Bebop, picking up a DVD here and there they might find
interesting or of a show they were fond of as kids (much like we would do).
Whilst the bulk of the anime watching is probably done by teens and kids.
So ask a hardworking Japanese student in their twenties about the most
popular seiyuu currently in Japan or J-pop or whatever and they might go,
"Huh?" simply because it's no longer stuff that they keep up with, just
like we in America may not know about the actors in the latest TV shows or
bands popular amongst the teenage crowd. One thing about growing up is
that even if the shows for the younger crowd still appeal to you, you
simply don't have the time anymore to keep up with things anyway. So you
might buy a DVD here, catch a theatrical release here and there etc.
Thinking that all Japanese are anime crazy may be the same as thinking that
all Chinese know how to do martial arts and martial art TV and movies
occupy some "special" place in Hong Kong. Yes, martial arts is much bigger
in China than in the West, martial arts shows and muhop shows are shown
much more on Hong Kong TV than they are in the West and martial arts has
permeted all types of Chinese media just like you see manga and anime
imagery anymore but you know an adult unless they really are dedicated
simply won't have the time anymore to follow things. Not to mention a lot
of muhop shows on TV and action films have the latest teen idols who you
know older audiences might not connect with. Older audiences may prefer to
read the original novels (which at some schools is becoming required
reading though some literati still dimiss them as not "proper" literature)
and of course real martial artists are very much respected as well as the
philosophy behind martial artists, but martial arts TV shows and movies.
Hmmm, well a lot of Chinese adults I know, especially women don't really
like them all that much perfering to watch dramas instead (It is just "da
da sak sak" - fighting and killing, they say) and well the adult men still
do but they are content to you know watch a bit here and there. Of course
there is a huge community of adult muhop fans who will religiously follow
any TVB release but they aren't the norm.
Uiler
Wyvern
"Tiger Feet" <tiger...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:8f9d4ddb.02092...@posting.google.com...
> "Wyvern" <lu...@pirate.ship> wrote in message
news:<deVk9.2447$t6.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>
> > Question though-if anime is considered just for kids, why the new influx
of
> > anime shows that come on late at night? (Excel Saga, for example, aired
at
> > two in the morning) Do they get alot of kids and teens even at those
hours,
> > or are late-night anime considered "okay" to like?
>
> ISTR reading in the Anime Encyclopedia that "late-night anime" are
> actually the last resting place of what used to be known as OAVs.
> Nobody is expected to stay up and watch them, but fans are expected to
> record them. In other words, the network pays for the series, and the
> fans supply their own tape, saving the producers a few bucks per
> "sale".
>
> I do remember seeing an article in Newtype a couple of years which
> confirmed all the above.
>
> Tiger Feet
Wow. Now that's an odd marketing stratedgy, but with OAV's seemingly going
the way of the dodo it makes a weird kind of sense (also helps explain why
late-night shows tend to be shorter)
-Wyvern
Uiler
the series vs. where it is placed, this does make some kind of sense.
For example DiGiCharat is on at Sunday at 12:50AM in the morning. Anyone
telling me that is an adult show must be joking.
Kiddie stuff like Digimon is on at 8am in the morning to catch the little
kids.
Captain Tsubasa, One Piece, Sazae San, Inu Yasha, Detective Conan, Prince
of Tennis etc. all big shows sometimes with many episodes are on at 6-8pm.
Other shows on at past 12am include Azumanga Daioh, .//hack sign etc.
Other shows I know which have been on at past 12am are Chobits and Trigun.
However compare Chobits to something like G-On Riders which is on at prime
time of 6:30pm - is the ecchiness factor of Chobits really that much worse
than G-On Riders? Compare the "adult" factor of Trigun to something like
Saiyuki which had a large number of episodes (around 50) and was on at
prime time. Is Trigun really that much more "adult" or "mature" than
Saiyuki? Also note that the shows on in the early morning tend to average
a shorter number of epsiodes than those on earlier and since things like 13
episode TV shows are pretty much standard replacements for OAVs nowadays,
26 episode ones might also be verging on that.
The other point is, I don't know about in Japan, but in Australia, if a
mainstream show for mature audiences is to be shown on TV (and it is not
some special pay TV porn channel or something), the latest it would be
scheduled would be 10:30-11pm. Most "mature" movies have their start time
delayed to 9:30pm. Anything past 12am is almost certainly stuff that the
broadcasters don't really expect people to watch. Also, do most adults
with steady jobs really stay up to 2am in the morning watching TV? Most of
the time they have to go to work in the morning/drive the kids to
school/make breakfast etc.
Uiler
The Skeleton Man
I don't know... last time I was in China it seemed that all anyone could
talk about was Zhang Yimou and they couldn't wait for his next film.
(starring Jet Li and Donnie Yen) Movies in general were huge there. Not just
people talking about them often but the theatres blew away the stuff we had
out in vegas (not that it's a movie town) and even the places I've been to
in LA so far. It would be hard to match the theatres I saw there though.
and they hated Crouching Tiger... I get the impression they consider
mainland filmmaking above Hong Kong stuff... (which what little I've seen,
so do I)
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I watched some Yen?
The Skeleton Man
"Wyvern" <dragonkeepREMOVETHISPEONS!@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Lhcl9.4330$t6.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Since when were OVA's going the way of the dodo? I was pretty taken aback by
the sheeer amount of crap on shelves in stores when I was there. (I will
admit I haven't seen the stuf so I can't really judge but the boxes do say a
lot) The more mainstream stores seemed to carry stuff that had been
broadcast or in theatres, but some of these shops just had no end of the
original stuff. I literally had to keep asking "Is this new" because I just
assumed some of it had to be old. Alas it was all recent stuff, some out the
week I go tthere! There were far too many titles.
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I changed my sig?
Uiler
>
> I don't know... last time I was in China it seemed that all anyone could
> talk about was Zhang Yimou and they couldn't wait for his next film.
> (starring Jet Li and Donnie Yen) Movies in general were huge there. Not
> just people talking about them often but the theatres blew away the stuff
> we had out in vegas (not that it's a movie town) and even the places I've
> been to in LA so far. It would be hard to match the theatres I saw there
> though.
>
> and they hated Crouching Tiger... I get the impression they consider
> mainland filmmaking above Hong Kong stuff... (which what little I've seen,
> so do I)
>
> --
> Skeleton Man
>
> Is it time I watched some Yen?
I get the feeling that big movies like that might be different esp. if has
old favourites like Tony Leong and Jet Li and by a famous "real" director.
What I was talking more about is the kind of martial art and muhop shows
that get shown on TV a lot or perhaps the less big budget and less arty
movie stuff - the stuff that gets made most often for general consumption.
For example a lot of the Jin Yong adaptations, esp. the 90 ones. The
Chinese adults I know, esp. the women borrow them from those rental stores
for sure, but that's more for their kids to watch than for themselves. And
well those shows take ages to watch anyway and really a lot of Chinese
adults work very long hours and so only have time to watch late at night
after work and well you'd have to really like the stuff to want to watch 50
episode serials at 12am at night. I know people who will read the novels
but won't touch the shows. And I also know people who think even the
novels are crap because they aren't "real" literature (the bastards!). BTW
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is not really a Hong Kong film. Some of the
stars were from Hong Kong, some from Taiwan and the mainland, the director
was from Taiwan and they all spoke Mandarin...Just a disclaimer, a lot of
the Chinese adults I know tend not to be very educated - you know the type
who work in stores and restaurants and such and tend to be 30s and older -
so maybe the younger and more educated generations are different.
Uiler
Lee Ratner
Here, here. My Japanese friends are sligtly amused that I like
anime so much amd think its rather charming in a way. I dare say their
reaction would be different I were Japanese.
Lee Ratner
> Lee Ratner wrote:
>
>
> > Japan is not a nation of anime fans and most people view as just
> > another form of entertainment. Manga reading is a very common habit
> > though for people of all ages but older readers are mainly men and not
> > women.
> > There is a much larger devote fan community though in Japan and it
> > is this community that buys OAVs and DVD releases of TV series and the
> > rest of the merchandise. Basically think of it as a large trekkie like
> > community.
>
> Hmmm...This reminds of the statement someone once made about how a lot of
> the shounen DVDs and videos in Japan were probably bought by female yaoi
> doujinshin artists. No, I have absolutely no idea how true that statement
> is, but it's still a funny thought. Ranks up there in my opinion with the
> tale of the female yaoi mangaka who went on a tour of sex shops and S&M
> clubs of New York which resulted in lots of bemused sex shop operators
> watching a group of nicely dressed polite young Japanese ladies giggling
> over ahem "accessories". Probably just a myth, but still funny. Actually
> I CAN imagine them doing that though ^_^
>
Fromer's guide book to Japan its just as common to see giggling
OLs in gay sex clubs as gay men.
Ethan Hammond
> Since when were OVA's going the way of the dodo? I was pretty taken aback by
> the sheeer amount of crap on shelves in stores when I was there. (I will
> admit I haven't seen the stuf so I can't really judge but the boxes do say a
> lot) The more mainstream stores seemed to carry stuff that had been
> broadcast or in theatres, but some of these shops just had no end of the
> original stuff. I literally had to keep asking "Is this new" because I just
> assumed some of it had to be old. Alas it was all recent stuff, some out the
> week I go tthere! There were far too many titles.
The OAV market crapped out when the bubble burst in the mid 90's and
has never recovered.
Ethan Hammond
> > I am in concurrance.
>
> Here, here. My Japanese friends are sligtly amused that I like
> anime so much amd think its rather charming in a way. I dare say their
> reaction would be different I were Japanese.
Whoa its Lee, its been years guy. Or it seems like it anyway.
Unless I just haven't been paying attention. ^_^;;
Kurt Bernhard Pruenner
> I dunno... I had a Japanese exchange student look at my CDs once and I
> had some Yoko Kanno and supposedly"The Most Famous Seiyuu" Megumi
> Hayashibara in there, she didn't know who either of them were. It
> does not bode well!!
Yeah, well... don't ask me who the most popular Austrian singers/pop
stars/whathaveyou are - I couldn't tell you, either. ^_^
Then again, I guess Joe/Jane Random Sixpack would also have a hard time
recognising anything in my CD collection, even though it's mostly
German/US/UK music... :)
--
Kurt Bernhard Pruenner --- Haendelstrasse 17 --- 4020 Linz --- Austria
.......It might be written "Mindfuck", but it's spelt "L-A-I-N".......
np: Farben - Track 4 (Auch - Remix Tomorrow Goodbye)
Chris Kern
Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain> posted the following:
Probably nothing as interesting as you might suspect, "sailor fuku"
are the sailor suit-style school uniforms that girls wear.
-Chris
Chris Kern
I think basically the attitude of Japanese people towards anime is the
same as the attitude of American people towards cartoons. Mostly they
are for kids, but there's the big studio (Disney, Ghibli) whose movies
are considered acceptable for adults to watch. In addition, there are
a few cartoon series which adults do watch (Simpsons,
Flintstones/Sazae-San, Crayon Shin-chan), and there are a group of
people who still like all the kids cartoons even though they're not
supposed to be for adults.
-Chris
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 06:38:14 GMT, "Just Another Victim of the Ambient
> Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
> >
> > I used to think that anime was very much a part of Japanese culture and
> >that a very large percentage of their TV and film was animated. However, I
> >was recently talking with a friend of mine who had recently lived in Japan
> >for a year and he tells me that the only people who watch anime (aside from
> >Miyazaki films, which is comparable to Disney) are otaku (and _not_ in the
> >North American sense!). So much so that if I were to tell anyone in Japan
> >that I liked anime, they would automatically assume that I was an otaku
> >'cause no one else watches anime (besides kids).
> > So, can somene who knows clear this up for me? This has totally
> >shattered my image of anime since I had believed very different for a long
> >time now (shows how much I know).
> > Thanks!
>
>
> I dunno... I had a Japanese exchange student look at my CDs once and I
> had some Yoko Kanno and supposedly"The Most Famous Seiyuu" Megumi
> Hayashibara in there, she didn't know who either of them were. It
> does not bode well!!
>
Because they're not famous pop stars.
One works mainly in providing music,
the other as a seiyuu, and both mainly for anime.
Laters. =)
STan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
The Skeleton Man
Yeah I must point out that the crowd I was with are once again, very
educated. Artists, business types, entreprenuers (yeah they got 'em) and of
course Univ. students. Also, all very tech saavy, net surfing, cel phoning,
hair dyeing, cotact lense wearing, G.Q./Comso latest fashion types.
To them however, Crouching Tiger IS a Hong Kong film, (and they hate the
fact of Hong Kong stars "who can't act" trying to speak mandarin) and that's
the problem. They also say it doesn't show any real Chinese Gongfu. (which
it doesn't actually)
--
Skeleton Man
They're talking about me in China huh? Yeah
well, word gets around once you get to my level.
Robert Hutchinson
> Actually, didn't Sailor Moon premiere in North America in a timeslot of
> 2:00am? I remember reading about that back in early '96. A lot of hardcore
> North American fans (however that happened...) were complaining about it,
> saying that of course it had poor ratings with a time slot like that...
I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S., Sailor Moon was syndicated.
So it probably showed up at all sorts of times during the day.
--
Robert Hutchinson | "[Destiny's Child] got booed at the NBA
| playoffs. Even men in plush animal costumes
| don't get booed at the NBA playoffs."
| -- Fametracker.com
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Chibi-Light wrote:
>
> > I dunno... I had a Japanese exchange student look at my CDs once and I
> > had some Yoko Kanno and supposedly"The Most Famous Seiyuu" Megumi
> > Hayashibara in there, she didn't know who either of them were. It
> > does not bode well!!
>
> I used to hang out on the Japanese servers on PSO and most of the
> Japanese players knew who Megumi was. They would say things like,
> "She is the most popular actress," and what not. The best was one
> guy was really into Bastard so he was fun to talk too. I suspect
> the exchange student you met is just not into anime or jpop.
>
Well, of course, they're gamers (and online gamers at that!)
so they're geeks - and you know it! ;-)
They're quite a deviation from the common Japanese.
Still, a question popped into my mind.
Has Hayashibara done any live-action work?
Laters. =)
Stan
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
And I think that was his point. Take another look at the context given
above. We're discussing how pervasive _anime_ is, ne? So, a random person
is shown some very famous anime players (if you will) and she didn't know
either of them, strengthening the claim that anime is not watched by the
general public. Of course they're not famous pop stars, we're talking about
how popular anime is!
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
And it's not that popular; that's my point. ;-)
Metlhd3138
>2:00am?
More like 5-6am.
Andrew Hollingbury
"Betty Lee" <bett...@Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
news:an30gl$7us$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
> Adam Haun <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote:
> *boggle* "Chick flicks" are generally aimed at teenage or young-adult
> girls. That's why they're "chick flicks". Maybe it's pointless to aim
> at anyone older than 22? Maybe our tastes in video entertainment stop
> maturing at 22? What would be considered appropriate for (or aimed at)
> a 60-year-old that isn't appropriate for a 22-year-old? I mean, things
> like soap operas make great trashy nursing-home fare as well as great
> trashy college dorm fare.
Well, "The Importance of Being Earnest" is likely to be more popular with a
60 year old, or "Gosford Park". Many "older people" I know enjoy a lot of
kids shows - my grandma watches a LOT of telly, and she's a big fan of
Sabrina the Teenage Witch for example. She also loves Murder, She Wrote -
but then who doesn't?
Andrew H
Lee Ratner
> Lee Ratner wrote:
>
> > > I am in concurrance.
> >
> > Here, here. My Japanese friends are sligtly amused that I like
> > anime so much amd think its rather charming in a way. I dare say their
> > reaction would be different I were Japanese.
>
> Whoa its Lee, its been years guy. Or it seems like it anyway.
> Unless I just haven't been paying attention. ^_^;;
A very good day to you Mr. Hammond. I've been lurking for a while.
Nothing really new to post about and I did not want to get involved in
the bad parenting debate. Its not worth it getting into scream fests.
Doug Jacobs
> The reason it dosen't sell as much is because they rent anime a lot
> more since it is like $70 per DVD/LD/Tape.
DVDs are getting better - only $40-50 for most DVDs now, though the Macross:
DYRL DVD cost me around $80 (and was still worth it!)
Doug Jacobs
> "Uiler" <uil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3d94...@clarion.carno.net.au...
>> Generally anime in Japan is considered to be for kids and teenagers (Yes I
>> know there are exceptions esp. hentai but in *general*). Basically it is
>> perfectly acceptable for adults to read manga but not really acceptable
> for
>> them to watch most anime.
> Which if you think about it, makes no sense whatsoever. Aren't most anime
> just animated versians of one manga or another? Why the distinction then?
> It's the same story, same charecters, same everything (mostly) just with
> color, sound and motion.
It makes sense. For the most part, the shows that are animated are taken
from manga aimmed at younger audiences anyways.
Sure, you get something like Chobits, but again, it aired at 1:30am in
Japan.
Most people aren't going to be up that late, and won't bother with a VCR. ;)
> Basically as one Japanese girl told me, if you
>> are an adult in Japan and tell people that you watch anime a lot then
>> you'll be given very funny looks. However if you are an adult in Japan
> and
>> go to a manga store and buy manga to read on the way to work, well that's
>> considered pretty normal.
Well, you'll get strange looks because you're gaijin, can speak Japanese,
and probably know as much (if not more) about people's favorite anime show
than they do... ;)
BTW, there are no manga shops in Japan. Manga is sold in bookstores.
This means that used bookstores will sell....used manga. LOTS of used manga.
Used bookstores are your friend.
> However anime **imagery** is considered fine for
>> adults as well. For example a business man is not going to be embarrassed
>> to have an anime character on his Visa card.
> Again, seems like a silly distinction to me. Then again, I guess if you have
> Vash the Stampede on your Visa card, you can always say you're just a fan of
> the Trigun manga reguardless of weather or not that's true.
I think that will also depend on the character and on the person... I
could certainly see adult males having a credit card with characters from
Silent Service on it, for instance, or even Astro Boy, but not something like
Sailor Moon... BTW, Japanese phone cards will often protray anime characters,
and there is a Beanie-Baby-esque collector's industry around them.
> This is true; most of the more mature anime seems to be original stories
> with no manga origins (Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, Lain, Big O,
> yada yada yada)
Escaflowne was actually a manga wasn't it? With two "versions" - one
shoujo, the other shounen.
> Question though-if anime is considered just for kids, why the new influx of
> anime shows that come on late at night? (Excel Saga, for example, aired at
> two in the morning) Do they get alot of kids and teens even at those hours,
> or are late-night anime considered "okay" to like?
> All in all this isn't too surprising, because here in America we have a bit
> of a screening process-a show has to be liscened and/or popular enough for
> someone to fansub before most of us can enjoy it. And shows that are
> explicitly for kids tend not to make the cut (unless they're being dubbed
> for US TV) There are *alot* of kiddie shows out there we never see, and
> these make up the majority of the stuff on japanese TV.
Anime isn't just for kids in Japan, as you've already realized.
However, most people stop watching anime by the time to reach college. The
latenight anime shows you've seen are aimmed at that college-aged people
mainly. I certainly never met anyone in Japan over the age of 30 who was
regularly watching anime, unless they were an anime fan to begin with.
Doug Jacobs
> Wow. Now that's an odd marketing stratedgy, but with OAV's seemingly going
> the way of the dodo it makes a weird kind of sense (also helps explain why
> late-night shows tend to be shorter)
Yeah, that does make sense...
Consider some of the original reasons OAVs were created:
* Able to put more effort into each episode. Art and animation-wise, OAVs
looked much better than TV-fare, but not quite as good theatrical releases.
* Flexible series length. With TV series running for multiple seasons, and
movies locked at about 2 hours, OAVs allowed different length storise to
be created.
However nowadays, even the worst series has great art and animation, and
13 episodes is perfectly acceptable for a TV show.
The other reasons OAVs were popular - more creator control and less worries
about censorship - aren't as big of a deal since they can just push the
show on the air at 2am or something.
That would certainly explain why there have been much fewer OAVs since
the mid-90s.
Doug Jacobs
> For example DiGiCharat is on at Sunday at 12:50AM in the morning. Anyone
> telling me that is an adult show must be joking.
Actually, wasn't Digi Charat originally intended as an advertising gimmick
for a gaming store?
At any rate, DigiCharat seems squarely aimmed at the 20-something
anime/videogame/card collector fan.
> Kiddie stuff like Digimon is on at 8am in the morning to catch the little
> kids.
> Captain Tsubasa, One Piece, Sazae San, Inu Yasha, Detective Conan, Prince
> of Tennis etc. all big shows sometimes with many episodes are on at 6-8pm.
> Other shows on at past 12am include Azumanga Daioh, .//hack sign etc.
> Other shows I know which have been on at past 12am are Chobits and Trigun.
> However compare Chobits to something like G-On Riders which is on at prime
> time of 6:30pm - is the ecchiness factor of Chobits really that much worse
> than G-On Riders? Compare the "adult" factor of Trigun to something like
> Saiyuki which had a large number of episodes (around 50) and was on at
> prime time. Is Trigun really that much more "adult" or "mature" than
> Saiyuki? Also note that the shows on in the early morning tend to average
> a shorter number of epsiodes than those on earlier and since things like 13
> episode TV shows are pretty much standard replacements for OAVs nowadays,
> 26 episode ones might also be verging on that.
You have to remember what *Japan* thinks is appropriate for different age
groups - and that's going to differ from what the US or Australia is going
to think is appropriate for different age groups.
I do agree that Chobits really isn't that bad compared to other anime, and
don't quite understand why it was put on so late (early?)
> The other point is, I don't know about in Japan, but in Australia, if a
> mainstream show for mature audiences is to be shown on TV (and it is not
> some special pay TV porn channel or something), the latest it would be
> scheduled would be 10:30-11pm. Most "mature" movies have their start time
> delayed to 9:30pm. Anything past 12am is almost certainly stuff that the
> broadcasters don't really expect people to watch. Also, do most adults
> with steady jobs really stay up to 2am in the morning watching TV? Most of
> the time they have to go to work in the morning/drive the kids to
> school/make breakfast etc.
From my time in Japan 10 years ago, there wasn't an ubiquitous cable system.
There was satellite...sorta... but it was 3 channels (BS1, BS2, Wowow).
The schedule sort of went like this:
6-8 - family-safe shows. News, sports, an ocassional anime show.
8-11 - Dramas, talk/variety shows, movies. (I'd say 7-10 was "prime time.")
11-12 - news, "late-nite" type talk/variety shows.
12-2 - adult programming - think "Man Show" with nudity. Oddly, this was
when Star Trek TNG aired - dubbed in Japanese. Movies.
The distinct impression I got from watching shows and commercials from 12-2
was that they were targetting college-aged people (men mostly...) Certainly
in college, I'd regularly be up until 2+ am. Studying, of course...well,
sometimes anyways.
Doug Jacobs
> There are a couple of stores where the front of the store is normal
> games, but then as you go farther back into the store there is more
> and more hentai stuff until you get to the back, which is all hentai.
That's usually what most stores are like... Although I do remember finding
what I thought was an "anime store" because the videos in the window were
Totoro and Gundam. Of course, once you got past that first rack that faced
the window, it was nothing but hardcore (non-anime) porn.
Doug Jacobs
> Since they have shops for used sailor fuku and soiled panties,
> I don't think anything is too shameful.
I thought that sort of stuff was only available from vending machines in
the alley?
Doug Jacobs
> This reminds me of how in Japan you do not tell people that you cosplay.
> Lots of people cosplay but it's not something you'll tell your workmates
> and your non-cosplaying non-anime friends because it's kindof embarassing
> because it's too "kiddie". I think they look the same way at dressing up
> on Halloween. Whilst in America generally people are quite open about it
> even if it is frowned upon. I think perhaps in Japan there is much more
> pressure to "conform" than in the West. Being individualistic and snubbing
> convention is often looked upon as a strength here whilst in Japan it is
> not so easy. However Japan is changing, though slowly.
Japan doesn't celebrate Halloween...at all. In fact, the family I lived
with was *very* surprised to hear about adults throwing costume parties
for Halloween.
Doug Jacobs
> Actually, didn't Sailor Moon premiere in North America in a timeslot of
> 2:00am? I remember reading about that back in early '96. A lot of hardcore
> North American fans (however that happened...) were complaining about it,
> saying that of course it had poor ratings with a time slot like that...
I certainly don't remember hearing about that... At least in my area,
Sailor Moon showed up at 3 or 4pm, along with the other after-school
cartoons.
Doug Jacobs
> Also, I think that most people would react strangely if you suggested
> that there was a difference between Japanese and American animation
> (or if you tried to use the word "anime" to refer to Japanese
> animation alone).
Well...it gets confusing.
"Anime" in Japanese really just refers to any sort of animation - and
literally translated would mean "Cartoon." Disney is anime, Scooby Doo
is anime, Macross is a cartoon...
As a result when I'd say I liked anime in Japan, most would say "Oh yes, I
like Disney too." Because I'm not Japanese, the assumption made was that
I'm not referring to Japanese cartoons - only American ones.
I'm a general fan of animation and cartoons, so that wasn't entirely off,
but I got into the habit of saying I like anime and Japanese-anime. Of
course this would cause confusion on the other person's part... In most
cases it's surprising enough to meet a non-Japanese person who could speak
Japanese - now imagine the shock of meeting one who also knew your pop-culture
as well... Quite like meeting someone in Japan who was a big basketball fan,
and could tell me all sorts of stats and information about various players.
He was rather surprised that I didn't like Basketball. He was under the
impressional all Americans liked the sport, and that it was sort of a
requirement. ;)
Saying I liked manga caused similar confusion. Most people just assumed I
was talking about Superman, and would get thrown off when I'd point to various
titles I was reading - Dr. Slump to Kiseiju to Galaxy Express 999.
I caused more than one commotion in bookstores trying to find various titles.
About the only place where just my prescense didn't cause problems was at the
local used bookstore... The owner was well aware that there were going to be
one or two Americans who liked Japanese anime/manga and would eventually find
his store. In fact, when I first showed up, he asked what took me so long ;)
Doug Jacobs
> *Sigh* I seriously don't know why a lot of Western anime fans seemed to be
> so concerned over whether the anime they are watching is considered "adult"
> or not. If someone says "Hah, it's kids stuff" to me I just blink and go
> "And so". "How can you watch that kids' stuff?" "Because I like it.
That's because Western society (or at least, American society) puts a lot
of emphasis of dividing the two. You've heard the line "When I became an
adult, I put away my childish things." Which I find rather silly, since
there's a lot of talk about "the inner child" in psychology... Maybe if we
weren't told that adulthood was the end of toys, cartoons, and other things
people may still like we wouldn't have so many messed up people out there...
> who is really into say comic books. Maybe I'm mistaken but I do get the
> impression that a lot of people think anime is "superior" to American
> animation because it is more "adult" and so watching anime is "adult". I
> think it just seems more adult because the Japanese are not so concerned
> with putting mature themes/violence/sex in stuff aimed at kids and also
> because the oriental idea of morality is of a different form from the good
> vs evil kind and is much more flexible and practical which is why you often
> get "mature" things like sympathetic villains. I'm sure there are a lot
> more reasons but I doubt that the villains in Rurouni Kenshin were so
> brilliant because the mangaka was thinking his audience consisted mainly of
> 20 something salary men and so he shouldn't write "kiddie" stuff (esp
> considering it was published in a magazine with "shounen" ie. young boy in
> the title...). But seriously some of the stuff in a lot of anime is rather
> aimed at a younger way of thinking.
I think there's a couple of things there.
When I got into anime in the 80s, most American cartoons were aimmed at
10-12 year olds. There wasn't really anything for older teenagers. That's
one of the main reason Robotech grabbed me so strongly. I'd never seen a
cartoon in which the characters spoke about things like ideals, or war, or
love. About the only discussions you got in GI Joe were things like "There's
Cobra! Let's get 'im!"
So, yeah, I thought anime was superior to US cartoons.
I think there's also the "false" sense of superiority that comes from watching
something in a foreign language. This comes from the goofy US stereotype
that films that aren't in English are somehow more "intellectual" than their
US counterparts. Of course that all got blown away for me by watching things
like "Hard Boiled" which is a good movie - but certainly nothing more
"intellectual" than, say, Die Hard.
And for me, at least, there was the sense of accomplishment of being able to
watch something in a foreign language and still be able to understand it, even
without subtitles... The inevitable happend, of course. Now that watching
something in Japanese is almost like watching something in English, my
pre-existing tastes exert themselves... For instance, I don't like Dirty Pair
because it's Japanese or anime, but because it's a good action/humor show.
Once that happend, the whole facade of "anime == superior" crumbled.
Doug Jacobs
> Damn - I'd really wish my news-server will allow the replacement of posts.
> Something I forgot to add in my last message. Firstly a lot of people seem
> to be judging whether and anime show is for adults or for children on the
> standard set in **America**. Hmm, shows for children in America don't
> allow these kind of things, therefore this show from Japan which does allow
> these things must be adult. However what we are talking about here is the
> **Japanese** perception of what things a child should be allowed to see,
> not what the American standards are. So if you want to judge who a show is
> considered for in Japan you will have to judge it by Japanese standards,
> not American standards. And the impression I get is what Japanese consider
> suitable for children and young teens is very different from what is
> considered suitable in America.
> Geez. I think I'll probably get a lot of flames now ^_^. Well, off to
> find the asbestos suit...
Naw. You bring up a good point. Witness the *huge* heated discussions about
Card Captor Sakura that took place here ~1-2 years ago... In the US, the
Japanese version with English subtitles is rated "13+" even though in Japan,
the show is clearly aimmed at girls 8-12. However, many posters claimed that
this was because of the "adult" feelings Tomoyo had for Sakura and such.
I even had the great misfortune to witness an upset American parent angrily
demand a refund for "Totoro" on VHS because it contained a scene in which
the father and the two daughters bathed together...and they were NAKED!
Even though the clerk (correctly) explained that in Japan, children regularly
bathe with one parent didn't help any... The lady basically declared that the
whole country must be nothing but child molesters. The clerk just gave up
and gave the lady back her money so she'd go away. Gads... And people are
*surprised* to learn that Americans aren't well liked by everyone??
Doug Jacobs
> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:19:26 +1000, Uiler <uil...@yahoo.com> posted
> the following:
>>Basically who cares if the Japanese think anime is kid's stuff anyway? If
>>you like it then watch it. If you don't like it then don't.
> It possibly comes from a need to justify one's hobbies. While some
> people may enjoy having an eccentric or unusual hobby, most people
> don't like having a ridiculed hobby. Perhaps they think that if
> Japanese people are accepting of anime and otaku, that somehow makes
> their own hobby have worth.
This has had an opposite effect on me...
I'm so used to be on the fringe, doing things others think are
weird/strange/unknowable, that when something I like goes mainstream, it does
lose some of its appeal in a way...
While others dash about trying to find ways to fit in, I find myself looking
for ways to NOT fit in. Perhaps that's why I liked Japan so much...no matter
what you do, you don't fit in. You'll NEVER fit in. And at the same time,
it's a very "in-your-face" type of thing too, since I'd still need to go
grocery shopping and whatnot like anyone else...
What a twisted mind I have.
Doug Jacobs
> I think that to a certain degree, it's a kind of excuse people give
> themselves so that they don't have to be ashamed of liking animation. Like
> when I lent a friend of mine some of the Ranma 1/2 manga. Her brother
> teased her about reading comics and she said, "It's not a comic, it's a
> _graphic novel_" Many people do the same thing with the words "anime" and
> "cartoons" -- "It's not a cartoon, it's an _anime_" As if there were any
> difference!
It's not a doll...it's an "Action Figure."
Unfortunatly, many here *will* flame you for calling anime a cartoon... I
used to be one of them.
> All that it goes to show is that there's a stigma attached to animation and
> comics in this country, and as a consequence people try to find a way to
> rationalize their attraction to these things.
The whole "inner child" thing... Bah. I still eat Captain Crunch, watch
Saturday Morning Cartoons (not that there's much left to watch...), most of
the shows my Tivo records are on Cartoon Network (mainly because PPG,
Dexter and Dragonball run 2 or 3 times a day...)
Doug Jacobs
> I dunno... I had a Japanese exchange student look at my CDs once and I
> had some Yoko Kanno and supposedly"The Most Famous Seiyuu" Megumi
> Hayashibara in there, she didn't know who either of them were. It
> does not bode well!!
That's because neither are pop-singers...
Doug Jacobs
> Because they're not famous pop stars.
> One works mainly in providing music,
> the other as a seiyuu, and both mainly for anime.
Both have done original, non-anime work.
Doug Jacobs
> And I think that was his point. Take another look at the context given
> above. We're discussing how pervasive _anime_ is, ne? So, a random person
> is shown some very famous anime players (if you will) and she didn't know
> either of them, strengthening the claim that anime is not watched by the
> general public. Of course they're not famous pop stars, we're talking about
> how popular anime is!
Not really.
I like American movies, but I'll be darned if I can name actors, actresses,
or the big-name composers who do BGMs.
Same thing with anime. The exchange student in question would probably
recognize some shows Hashibara has done, or some music by Yoko Kanno, but
that would be about it.
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>
>"Anime" in Japanese really just refers to any sort of animation - and
>literally translated would mean "Cartoon." Disney is anime, Scooby Doo
>is anime, Macross is a cartoon...
Yes, this is how I try to use "anime" in English as well. I've grown
to dislike the "anime means Japanese animation" definition.
>About the only place where just my prescense didn't cause problems was at the
>local used bookstore... The owner was well aware that there were going to be
>one or two Americans who liked Japanese anime/manga and would eventually find
>his store. In fact, when I first showed up, he asked what took me so long ;)
Book Off was one of my favorite stores in Japan :-)
-Chris
Invid Fan
<a.holl...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> "Betty Lee" <bett...@Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
> news:an30gl$7us$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
> > Adam Haun <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote:
>
> > *boggle* "Chick flicks" are generally aimed at teenage or young-adult
> > girls. That's why they're "chick flicks". Maybe it's pointless to aim
> > at anyone older than 22? Maybe our tastes in video entertainment stop
> > maturing at 22? What would be considered appropriate for (or aimed at)
> > a 60-year-old that isn't appropriate for a 22-year-old? I mean, things
> > like soap operas make great trashy nursing-home fare as well as great
> > trashy college dorm fare.
>
> Well, "The Importance of Being Earnest" is likely to be more popular with a
> 60 year old
Only on the theory that a 60 year old may be more likely to have read
the play in school at some point. Actually, I'd say it's likely to be
more populal with the university lit croud.
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>BTW, there are no manga shops in Japan. Manga is sold in bookstores.
>This means that used bookstores will sell....used manga. LOTS of used manga.
>Used bookstores are your friend.
I found Book Off to be especially good in this respect; there are
*tons* of them in Tokyo (there were four within walking distance of
where I was). You can get pretty much any series except for currently
running ones for 100 yen a volume (about 80-85 cents), and often they
will even sell the deluxe hardcover editions for 100 yen a piece (like
the Kimagure Orange Road collection). They also sell sets at a
discount (I saw all 18 volumes of Sailor Moon for 1000 yen).
Anime, on the other hand, is ridiculously expensive -- I remember
seeing an LD of Utena that had one episode for 5000 yen, and three
episodes for 5000 yen (around $43-45) is not uncommon.
>> This is true; most of the more mature anime seems to be original stories
>> with no manga origins (Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, Lain, Big O,
>> yada yada yada)
>
>Escaflowne was actually a manga wasn't it? With two "versions" - one
>shoujo, the other shounen.
But the manga came after the anime.
-Chris
David Johnston
>
> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:24:23 -0000, Doug Jacobs <dja...@rawbw.com>
> posted the following:
>
> >
> >"Anime" in Japanese really just refers to any sort of animation - and
> >literally translated would mean "Cartoon." Disney is anime, Scooby Doo
> >is anime, Macross is a cartoon...
>
> Yes, this is how I try to use "anime" in English as well. I've grown
> to dislike the "anime means Japanese animation" definition.
Do you dislike the word "cartoon"?
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Lee Ratner" <czar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:59117524.02092...@posting.google.com...
> Nothing really new to post about and I did not want to get involved in
> the bad parenting debate. Its not worth it getting into scream fests.
Bad parenting? Which thread is this?
Uiler
> From my time in Japan 10 years ago, there wasn't an ubiquitous cable
> system. There was satellite...sorta... but it was 3 channels (BS1, BS2,
> Wowow).
>
> The schedule sort of went like this:
>
> 6-8 - family-safe shows. News, sports, an ocassional anime show.
>
> 8-11 - Dramas, talk/variety shows, movies. (I'd say 7-10 was "prime
> time.")
>
> 11-12 - news, "late-nite" type talk/variety shows.
>
> 12-2 - adult programming - think "Man Show" with nudity. Oddly, this was
> when Star Trek TNG aired - dubbed in Japanese. Movies.
>
> The distinct impression I got from watching shows and commercials from
> 12-2
> was that they were targetting college-aged people (men mostly...)
> Certainly
> in college, I'd regularly be up until 2+ am. Studying, of course...well,
> sometimes anyways.
Hmmm, so perhaps the 12am-2am shows are aimed not so much at adults in
general, but more specificially college people? That would make sense
actually...I was wondering how they could expect a busy Japanese salaryman
to stay up to 2am in the morning to watch anime...
Uiler
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
news:upcdpr9...@corp.supernews.com...
> Fata Morgana <nunyabid...@hotmail.comnospam> wrote:
>
> > I think that to a certain degree, it's a kind of excuse people give
> > themselves so that they don't have to be ashamed of liking animation.
Like
> > when I lent a friend of mine some of the Ranma 1/2 manga. Her brother
> > teased her about reading comics and she said, "It's not a comic, it's a
> > _graphic novel_" Many people do the same thing with the words "anime"
and
> > "cartoons" -- "It's not a cartoon, it's an _anime_" As if there were
any
> > difference!
>
> It's not a doll...it's an "Action Figure."
>
> Unfortunatly, many here *will* flame you for calling anime a cartoon... I
> used to be one of them.
But it's _not_ a doll, it's an action figure!
It's not a cartoon, it's anime!
Yes, it is merely a label, an attempt to get people to get off your back
about what you like but, when you think about it, it's perfectly reasonable
to _want_ people to leave you alone about this stuff, ne? How many times
have you been successfully flirting with someone when you accidentally let
slip that you're an anime fan (okay, so I _am_ an otaku!) and they're
suddenly walking away? It really would help to know that there is some
culture out there that thinks this is okay rather than have the whole world
think you're a geek...
> > All that it goes to show is that there's a stigma attached to animation
and
> > comics in this country, and as a consequence people try to find a way to
> > rationalize their attraction to these things.
>
> The whole "inner child" thing... Bah. I still eat Captain Crunch, watch
> Saturday Morning Cartoons (not that there's much left to watch...), most
of
> the shows my Tivo records are on Cartoon Network (mainly because PPG,
> Dexter and Dragonball run 2 or 3 times a day...)
I dislike cereals with too much sugar, Saturday morning cartoons now
suck, and there's no Tivo in my country (why the hell not!?). I just happen
to like anime (and a lot of other geeky things, but that's another issue)
and I _do_ have to rationalize it but not to myself, of course. I know why
I watch anime, it's because it's cool! I need to rationalize it to people
who don't watch anime so the whole room doesn't point at me screaming "what
a loser!" and I'm asked to leave the party...
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
While I will say that anime stories are _much_ more rich than their
american counterparts, I must say that I think you're exaggerating the
target age group of something like GI Joe. In my opinion, GI Joe is aimed
at boys 6-10, and I think ten is pushing it. I don't know how well you
remember GI Joe but, man, it was pathetic!
> I think there's also the "false" sense of superiority that comes from
watching
> something in a foreign language. This comes from the goofy US stereotype
> that films that aren't in English are somehow more "intellectual" than
their
> US counterparts. Of course that all got blown away for me by watching
things
> like "Hard Boiled" which is a good movie - but certainly nothing more
> "intellectual" than, say, Die Hard.
First of all, I sure as hell hope people are not talking about some
general notion of "superiority" among people. Such things should have been
very childish quite some time ago.
Watching foreign entertainment _is_ considered an intellectual endeaver
because only intellectuals (not including foreigners, of course) are
interested in events outside the great US of A. If you doubt this, watch
some anime and note how hard importers try to remove as much cultural
references to Japan as they can, even in stories that are essentially
Japanese, like Rurouni Kenshin. This has been discussed in some heated
threads here, already, but lets reiterate: If it's not American, Americans
won't like it.
Watching Hard Boiled is more intellectual than watching Die Hard
because, in order to watch Hard Boiled, you had to have known that there
_is_ a place called Hong Kong that's not in the US and that they make movies
there too. Sadly, there is no end to American stupidity, just look at their
president...
Now, I suppose I must clear some things up before the flames start. I'm
not saying all Americans are stupid, it was best said in Men in Black that
"A person can be smart. People are idiots." Secondly, Hard Boiled is no
more intellectual to the people of Hong Kong than Die Hard is to us, this
much is true! </Cough>This asbestos is really getting to me. I don't know
why I bother, I'm usually content to let people think I'm a jerk...
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
Lies! Okay, I'll agree that composers are not exaclty big names but
actors? You've never heard of Arnold Swarzenegger? You don't recognize
that name? Not knowing him is like not knowing Megumi...
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
Ah! That's the point!
Maybe I'm confused here (there's little context and I'm lost in the
thread tree) but the point _is_ that neither of them are pop singers! If
anime were as popular as movies or pop music, she _would_ have known who
they were! The fact that she doesn't strengthens the assertion that anime
is not popular in Japan, the subject of this thread!
The Skeleton Man
"David Johnston" <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:3D9639...@telusplanet.net...
I kind of do. Not the word so much as the associaton. When I think of
cartoons I think of Loony Tunes type stuff. 10 minute shorts and the like.
Stuff like Invader Zim in modern times. When I think of feature animation
like Pince of Egypt, Anastasia or Tarzan it's hard for me to call it a
"cartoon". I don't really like calling stuff like Monsters Inc. a cartoon.
(many do)
I also use anime to mean pretty much any animation. It's a french word after
all and in both french and Japanese it means any animation.
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I made a cartoon?
The Skeleton Man
"Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain>
news:Dgsl9.130019$U_.9...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Ya know that used to bother me. I used to hate telling girls what I do,
because you would hear the wind rush over their head and then they would
turn and dash. Now I've come to realize I was just wasting my time talking
to the wrong people, and hanging out at the wrong places. There are enough
people out there who "get it". You'd be surprised at the difference in
response you get when trying to flirt with a girl at the local sprots bar,
vs. flirting with a girl at Quarks! (Star trek experience, Las vegas Hilton
replica of DS9 promenade for those who don't know.)
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I went back to Vegas?