[GUNBUSTER]Questions.
Sir Alby
Matthew Alt wrote:
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> In <31E990...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
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> >Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
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> >Spoilers ahead...
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> >1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
> > earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
> > years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
> > shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
> > the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
> > earth years, how can they not have aged?
>
> Haven't you ever studied physics? It has to do with Einstein's theory
> of relativity. From a subjective, stationary standpoint, time "slows"
> for the passengers in a faster-than-light spacecraft. A two-month trip
> at the speed of light as measured by the passengers only takes two
> months, but as measured by the Earth takes thousands of years. Perhaps
> a physics major out there can explain it more succinctly than I.
>
> This was handled in an earlier Gunbuster episode--as a matter of fact,
> it comes up every time they travel at the speed of light. Remember when
> Amano goes to intercept her Father's derelict ship? The whole operation
> takes only a few minutes, but months have passed when they return to
> the Exceleion.......
Perhaps I didn't state my question clearly enough. I have no problem with
time dilation as related to relativistic speeds. That is easy enough. What I
don't understand is how the Gunbuster managed to travel from the center of the
galaxy to earth in a couple of months. I am looking at my astronomy book
right now, and it states that the diameter of the galaxy is "at least
100,000 LY (light years)." Do you understand what a light year means? I also
know that the earth is near the edge of the galaxy. Given that, we can safely
assume the earth is some 50,000 light years from the center of the galaxy.
That means it would take light generated from the center of the galaxy 50,000
years to reach earth. So once again, how can the gunbuster, traveling at or
near the speed of light, reach earth in a couple of months?
>
> >2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
> > have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
> > A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
> > the black hole bomb.
>
> It was made for Amano and her partner specifically.
>
I guess that's true.
> >3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
> > robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
> > black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
> > the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
>
> It's not about the robot! It's not about the physics! It's about the
> pilots!
>
> >4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
> > before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
> > at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
> > anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
>
> See the answer to number three.
>
Huh? So you're saying the pilots are why the Gunbuster can withstand the
pressures of being inside Jupiter. Oh, I guess you mean that it really
doesn't matter. The important thing is that the partner decided to do this to
save humanity. Okay, this one isn't too great a leap of logic. I personally
don't have much problem with it. Just curious.
> >5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black
> hole
> > large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
>
> Ever studied astronomy? Some of the hugest objects in the universe,
> such as red giant stars (which exceed the size and mass of our sun by
> many, many times) compress down to the size of SMALLER than our moon
> when they burn out, go through gravatational collapse, and go nova.....
>
I think I should ask you that question, since you didn't know the size of the
galaxy and what 100,000 light years meant.
I think your example of a red dward sun is a perfect example of why I asked my
question. If a star the size of a red giant collapses into a black hole but
doesn't manage to suck much of anything else with it, how does an object the
size of a moon, or even the size of Jupiter, manage to create a black hole
large enough to suck up the entire center of the galaxy?
An interesting quote from my astronomy book: "For example, if a globular
cluster of 100,000 stars could collapse into a black hole, it would be 300,000
km in radius, a little less than half the radius of the Sun."
See my point? How much mass would be required to create a black hole large
enough to suck up the entire center of a 100,000 LY diameter galaxy? More
than the black hole bomb could possibly have had. You'd almost have to have
the mass of an entire galaxy to create a black hole that large.
By the way, red giants are not necessarily more massive than our sun. It just
means they're older and cooler. Someday, our sun will also be a red giant.
By the way, I did take 3 semesters of physics and a semester of astronomy.
--
--------------------------
Sir Alby
al...@slip.net
My favorite anime: KOR
My favorite anime song: Eternal Winds from Gundam-F91
My favorite girlfriend: I only have one. You know who you are.
Sir Alby
Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
Spoilers ahead...
1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
earth years, how can they not have aged? I mean, they were at
the center of the galaxy. Even light takes thousands and
thousands of years to travel from the center to us. So Amano
and Takaya should have died long before they reached earth.
2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
the black hole bomb.
3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
--
NO...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Sir Alby wrote:
>
> Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
>
> Spoilers ahead...
>
> 1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
> earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
> years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
> shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
> the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
> earth years, how can they not have aged? I mean, they were at
> the center of the galaxy. Even light takes thousands and
> thousands of years to travel from the center to us. So Amano
> and Takaya should have died long before they reached earth.
>
Gunbuster was coming back via normal space, not via the Taunhauser
Gates(I like that name!). As such, it's affected by the Theory of
Relitivity.
Ok-without the complicated physics, this is how(I think) it happened.
Time dillation due to near-relitivlistic velocties(translation-time
slowing down due to nearing the speed of light) is a very complicated
function. The frame of reference you are in is the valid one, and for
the fuction of our example, we'll discuss Gunbuster and Earth only.
For the remains of Gunbuster, time was going at a greatly accelerated
rate outside of their frame of reference. So it took, say a month inside
Gunbuster at about .999999999999999999999999 of the speed of light to
accellerated rate to reach Earth from the Galactic Core.
But from Earth, which was travelling very slowly, time past at slower rate
relitive to a theoretical baseline reference. So, while Gunbuster was coming
to Earth in a month, it took 12,000 years for Earth to reach Gunbuster's month.
Physics experts can flame me-I'm trying to make sense of this in a very
non-mathematic way.
> 2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
> have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
> A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
> the black hole bomb.
>
I'd like to say "resources", but if you can build a black hole bomb,
that's kind of moot. Gunbuster could be a machine built to fight for
only a few pilots-they might be the only ones able to handle the power
of such a machine. Can YOU handle thirty different weapon types? If
so, you are a better man than I.
> 3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
> robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
> black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
> the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
>
They made the Gunbuster MP series, and it's good enough to challenge the
Space Monster on even terms.
> 4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
> before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
> at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
> anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
>
My god, it's a anime! They can do anything!
> 5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
"Only the size of the moon..."... here's something to think about.
1 gram of regular matter and one gram of antimatter, when combined,
have the explosive force of over one MILLON megatons. The moon
weighs in the hundreds of millions of metric tonnes.
Now, imagine a black hole, matter so tightly compressed that it is
sharing the same space, that is built in a bomb the size of the
Earth's moon. When it undergoes final collapse, the tidal stress,
X-rays, and high energy particles released by the black hole
will obliterate just about anything within a quarter of a million
light years. If you make it right, it will dissolve into a mass
of Hawkings radiation at a time you want, doing even more damage.
The result-say good bye to the center of the galaxy.
Jon Souza
No...@worldnet.att.net
Matthew Alt
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>1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
> earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
> years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
> shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
> the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
> earth years, how can they not have aged?
Haven't you ever studied physics? It has to do with Einstein's theory
of relativity. From a subjective, stationary standpoint, time "slows"
for the passengers in a faster-than-light spacecraft. A two-month trip
at the speed of light as measured by the passengers only takes two
months, but as measured by the Earth takes thousands of years. Perhaps
a physics major out there can explain it more succinctly than I.
This was handled in an earlier Gunbuster episode--as a matter of fact,
it comes up every time they travel at the speed of light. Remember when
Amano goes to intercept her Father's derelict ship? The whole operation
takes only a few minutes, but months have passed when they return to
the Exceleion.......
>2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
> have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
> A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
> the black hole bomb.
It was made for Amano and her partner specifically.
>3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
> robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
> black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
> the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
It's not about the robot! It's not about the physics! It's about the
pilots!
>4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
> before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
> at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
> anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
See the answer to number three.
>5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black
hole
> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
Ever studied astronomy? Some of the hugest objects in the universe,
such as red giant stars (which exceed the size and mass of our sun by
many, many times) compress down to the size of SMALLER than our moon
when they burn out, go through gravatational collapse, and go nova.....
-Matt
Ru Igarashi
NO...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net wrote:
>Sir Alby wrote:
>>
>> Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
>>
>> Spoilers ahead...
>>
>> 1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
>> earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
>> years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
>> shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
>> the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
>> the center of the galaxy. Even light takes thousands and
>> thousands of years to travel from the center to us. So Amano
>> and Takaya should have died long before they reached earth.
>>
>Gunbuster was coming back via normal space, not via the Taunhauser
>Gates(I like that name!). As such, it's affected by the Theory of
>Relitivity.
Are you sure about that? I only saw GB once and it was
a while ago, but I somehow got the impression that because
of the reduced power supply, they were still able to use
the Taunhauser effect but less effectively. Thus, their
trip time was extended significantly (logarithmic response?)
but not to the extent of depending totally on relativity.
ru
Ken Arromdee
In article <4sc68v$b...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matthew Alt <goj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black
>hole
>> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
>Ever studied astronomy? Some of the hugest objects in the universe,
>such as red giant stars (which exceed the size and mass of our sun by
>many, many times) compress down to the size of SMALLER than our moon
>when they burn out, go through gravatational collapse, and go nova.....
Except for the time dilation, most of the science in Gunbuster is fake.
This is one of the bits of fake science.
If something collapses into a black hole, the black hole is not any bigger
than the original object; the gravity felt by nearby objects stays the same.
The gravity of a black hole is strong _if you get close_, but this means a
distance so close that if the object had not collapsed, you would be inside
it.
The gravity of the black hole at larger distances does not change. If a star
or anything else becomes a black hole, the objects outside the star don't
experience any change in gravity and will keep orbiting it just as if it
were still a star.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.nyx.net,
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"2000 members of the vegetable kingdom and I have to work with _tomatoes_!"
Akane
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
Thet did make mass production Gunbusters that were used in the final
battle with the aliens but they weren't as good as the original for
many reasons.
1. The original Gunbuster was carefully designed & created to be
mankinds best weapon against the aliens. They didn't make it in 2
weeks and say were done, it took a lot of time(at least 6 Mons. but
sounds like a lot longer). After having to make a manmade black hole
to stop the alien fleet from reaching earth. They wanted to insure
that Earth was not threatened again so they quickly made copys of
Gunbuster but they weren't made as strong or as powerful as the
original.
Akane
Sir Alby
Eric Lanier wrote:
>
> Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) wrote:
> : In article <31E9E6...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
> : >What I don't understand is how the Gunbuster managed to travel from
> : >the center of the galaxy to earth in a couple of months. I am
> : >looking at my astronomy book right now, and it states that the
> : >diameter of the galaxy is "at least 100,000 LY (light years)."
> : Methinks Gainax made a boo-boo. ^_^;;
> :
> : >An interesting quote from my astronomy book: "For example, if a globular
> : >cluster of 100,000 stars could collapse into a black hole, it would be 300,000
> : >km in radius, a little less than half the radius of the Sun."
> : That's the size of the actual object. Hit your textbook again and find out
> : how far the event horizon would reach.
>
> How about the blackhole in the center of galaxy NGC 4261, in the constellation
> of Virgo that was discovered by the Hubble Telescope. The disk surrounding
> the blackhole has a diameter of 800lys. About a billion stars are smashed
> down to the size of your fingernail.
>
> The blackhole that was formed in GB was even more massive than this. Since the
> bomb was imploded at the galactic core were the stars are very densely packed
> together. I assume that the blackhole grew larger over thousands of years
> from assimilating nearby stars.
I thought about this one. It's not possible. Even at the galactic core, star's
distances are much too great to be affected by a black hole even of immense size.
I think someone else has mentioned that a black hole does not suck up stuff any
more than the original sun's gravity did. The only way for a black hole to grow in
size is through collisions with other stars. This is an almost non-existent
possibility.
Matthew Alt
In <31E9E6...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>
>Matthew Alt wrote:
>>
>> In <31E990...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>> >
>> >Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
>> >
>> >Spoilers ahead...
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>I think I should ask you that question, since you didn't know the size
of the
>galaxy and what 100,000 light years meant.
Um...no need to get snippy here. Your specific question was, "why did
12,000 years pass but they didn't age a bit?" You mentioned nothing
about AU's, distances, or light-years.
>I think your example of a red dward sun is a perfect example of why I
>asked my question. If a star the size of a red giant collapses into a
>black hole but doesn't manage to suck much of anything else with it,
>how does an object the size of a moon, or even the size of Jupiter,
>anage to create a black hole large enough to suck up the entire center
>of the galaxy?
Black Holes don't "suck." This is a common misconception about them. Do
you know what would happen if our sun suddenly turned into a black
hole, against every law of physics? Seven minutes later, and from that
point on, Earth would recieve no light from the sun. That's it. All of
the orbits of all of the planets would remain exactly the same,
rotating around the BH, which would have the equivalent mass of the
original star, thus the same gravitational pull. Physics/astronomy
majors, forgive my mangling of these astronomical theories.
As for the BH bomb, it's a fictional weapon utilizing a black hole as a
power source.
>See my point? How much mass would be required to create a black hole
>large enough to suck up the entire center of a 100,000 LY diameter
>galaxy?
It's a fictional weapon utilizing a black hole as a power source. I
forget the exact description of it........
>
>By the way, red giants are not necessarily more massive than our sun.
It just
>means they're older and cooler. Someday, our sun will also be a red
giant.
But it won't go nova. Not enough mass. Perhaps I should ahve refered to
those high-mass stars that DO become Black Holes / Go Supernova.
>By the way, I did take 3 semesters of physics and a semester of
astronomy.
Cool, I didn't mean to be condescending.You've taken far more physics
than me. Your first question was a little oddly-worded, though, and it
seemed like you didnt know about relativity. I get where you're coming
from now -- but I don't think any of your questions have any firm
answers. :)
-Matt
Chris C. Lesley
Sir Alby (al...@slip.net) wrote:
I got the impression that the Tannhauser Drive could only
be used in certain areas of space, "where the sea of space is calm" is
how it was put in Gunbuster, I think. And even when they could travel
faster than light, relativity held sway in normal space. Perhaps a
"watered-down" version of relativity held in hyperspace...
The solar system is actually about 30,000 LY from galactic center, so if
they used a mixture of FTL travel and normal space travel at relativistic
speeds, they could have made the journey in a couple of months, ship
time, although their travel time from galactic center to the solar
system is never specified.
: >
: > >2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
: > > have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
: > > A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
: > > the black hole bomb.
: >
: > It was made for Amano and her partner specifically.
: >
: I guess that's true.
They did build a mass-production model (the "Sizzler"), presumably
without a lot of the bells and whistles of the original.
: > >3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
: > > robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
: > > black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
: > > the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
: >
: > It's not about the robot! It's not about the physics! It's about the
: > pilots!
: >
: > >4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
: > > before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
: > > at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
: > > anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
: >
: > See the answer to number three.
: >
: Huh? So you're saying the pilots are why the Gunbuster can withstand the
: pressures of being inside Jupiter. Oh, I guess you mean that it really
: doesn't matter. The important thing is that the partner decided to do this to
: save humanity. Okay, this one isn't too great a leap of logic. I personally
: don't have much problem with it. Just curious.
Obviously, the tidal forces inside the black hole bomb should have ripped
them apart. They are using a seldom mentioned but constantly used sci fi
trick I've always called a "gravity bottle". It nullifies the gravity of
the environment and replaces it with any gravitational field desired.
It's also why Noriko and Kazumi aren't crushed into tomato paste when
they accelerate off to meet the Lukushiyon.
: > >5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black
: > hole
: > > large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
: >
: > Ever studied astronomy? Some of the hugest objects in the universe,
: > such as red giant stars (which exceed the size and mass of our sun by
: > many, many times) compress down to the size of SMALLER than our moon
: > when they burn out, go through gravatational collapse, and go nova.....
: >
: I think I should ask you that question, since you didn't know the size of the
: galaxy and what 100,000 light years meant.
: I think your example of a red dward sun is a perfect example of why I asked my
: question. If a star the size of a red giant collapses into a black hole but
: doesn't manage to suck much of anything else with it, how does an object the
: size of a moon, or even the size of Jupiter, manage to create a black hole
: large enough to suck up the entire center of the galaxy?
: An interesting quote from my astronomy book: "For example, if a globular
: cluster of 100,000 stars could collapse into a black hole, it would be 300,000
: km in radius, a little less than half the radius of the Sun."
Is that the Schwarzschild radius, or the radius of the event horizon?
Just curious...
: See my point? How much mass would be required to create a black hole large
: enough to suck up the entire center of a 100,000 LY diameter galaxy? More
: than the black hole bomb could possibly have had. You'd almost have to have
: the mass of an entire galaxy to create a black hole that large.
Something else must have been involved, then. Given their ability to
manipulate gravity, such a bomb is not all that far-fetched for them.
C.
--
Chris Lesley
"Heaven wheels above you, displaying to you her eternal glories,
and still your eyes are on the ground." --- Dante Alighieri
Darren Lo
On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 18:07:02 -0700, NO...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net said
something to the effect of:
: Sir Alby wrote:
: >
: > Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
: >
[clip]
: But from Earth, which was travelling very slowly, time past at slower rate
: relitive to a theoretical baseline reference. So, while Gunbuster was coming
: to Earth in a month, it took 12,000 years for Earth to reach Gunbuster's month
: Physics experts can flame me-I'm trying to make sense of this in a very
: non-mathematic way.
Will do, although I don't know about being an expert at all. :)
The explanations of time dilation offered in this thread have been more or
less correct. The problem is that Earth is about 30,000 light years from the
galactic core, which means it should have taken the Gunbuster at least 30,000
Earth years to attain its triumphant homecoming. The anime version of events
is that a month on the Gunbuster at interstellar cruising speed corresponds
to 12,000 years on earth. A quick bout with bc shows that the Gunbuster's
cruising velocity is approximately 99.999999998% the speed of light. If we
accept this speed, we must then assume that 2.5 months elapsed on board the
Gunbuster, whereas 30,000 years elapsed on Earth. (We can ignore the
0.000000002% in calculating the Earth times. =) I'm also assuming that the
climactic battle took place in the Milky Way -- I seem to remember that it
happened in Andromeda, but that's probably wrong. Andromeda is a mere 2.3
million light years away; the Japanese language (if not the human race) would
be extinct by then. Nobody to write "Okaeri-nasai." (can't turn i's backward
in ASCII.)
Of course, all this begs the question of life support -- where are the
month's worth of food, air, and water coming from? And where is all the waste
going? Don't you dare say "replicator"; I hate ST:TNG. =)
: > 2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
: > have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
: > A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
: > the black hole bomb.
: >
[snip]
Dramatic effect. Which is a starker image, the Gulf War or Hiroshima? Think
about it.
: > 3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
: > robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
: > black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
: > the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
: >
Dramatic effect. The viewer has come to know and love (?) the Gunbuster.
Replacing the robot or upstaging it would decrease the watcher's emotional
involvement. We can't have intentional obsolescence in mecha design, unlike
consumer electronics.
: They made the Gunbuster MP series, and it's good enough to challenge the
: Space Monster on even terms.
No idea about this, as it's been a while since my single viewing of Gunbuster
(which occurred in the wee hours of the morning), so I'll pass.
: > 4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
: > before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
: > at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
: > anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
: >
: My god, it's a anime! They can do anything!
Right on the mark. ;)
: > 5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
: > large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
[munge]
: Now, imagine a black hole, matter so tightly compressed that it is
: sharing the same space, that is built in a bomb the size of the
: Earth's moon. When it undergoes final collapse, the tidal stress,
: X-rays, and high energy particles released by the black hole
: will obliterate just about anything within a quarter of a million
: light years. If you make it right, it will dissolve into a mass
: of Hawkings radiation at a time you want, doing even more damage.
The problems with this explanation are fourfold:
1) The evidence is that black holes already exist in the center of the
galaxy. The formation of these did not destroy the galactic core.
2) A quarter of a million light years' worth of destructive radius would
eliminate the Earth, and as far as I can tell the Magellanic Clouds, too.
This did not happen.
3) As far as I remember, the idea of the black hole bomb was to consume the
center of the galaxy within the black hole, rather than to irradiate the
galaxy with the radiation attendant upon a black hole's formation (e.g.,
X-rays from an accretion disk). So what's the problem? Newton's Law of
Gravity states that the gravitational field at a point depends solely upon
two numbers: the distance to the center of mass of the attracting object, and
the mass of the attracting object. Neither of these variables is changed by
the implosion of Jupiter, so there is no reason why the enemy armada would
suddenly fall inexorably toward Jupiter when it turned to a black hole, but not
before. So if we accept that the black hole bomb worked, we must also accept
that the enemy ships were falling toward, and sticking onto, the surface of
the black hole bomb before its detonation. The idea of the enemy fleet stuck
to the skin of the bomb like so many insects on fly paper is, needless to
say, ludicrous. :)
The game is different with the first black hole bomb, which used a
(hypothetical) technique of warping space-time other than sheer mass. I can't
really say anything good or bad about that one. I also can't really say how
the Gunbuster managed to escape the black holes, when ships all around our
intrepid heroes were plummeting toward a singular oblivion.
4) It's not at all clear what happens to a black hole when it evaporates
completely due to Hawking radiation (if they indeed do so), so it cannot be
assumed that such an event would cause massive destruction. Furthermore, a
black hole large enough to consume the center of the galaxy would take quite
a long time to evaporate, by which point the enemy fleet would already have
perished or destroyed the Earth, gone on its merry way for many millions of
millenia, then become extinct. Hawking radiation is a slow effect.
Of course, analyzing the techno-jargon in anime really misses the point. As
long as the jargon sounds somewhat reasonable, one can suspend disbelief and
focus on the more human elements of the story. I do find that Gainax is
pretty good at creating passable technobabble.
: The result-say good bye to the center of the galaxy.
By one means or another, anyway. :)
: Jon Souza
: No...@worldnet.att.net
--
Darren Lo, darr...@umich.edu +-----------------------------+
+----------------------------------------------+Do not meddle in the affairs |
|Mobius strip for sale... see back for details.|of DEC VMS 6.0, for it is |
|Klein bottle for sale... inquire within. |subtle and quick to anger. |
+----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
--
Darren Lo, darr...@umich.edu +-----------------------------+
+----------------------------------------------+Do not meddle in the affairs |
|Mobius strip for sale... see back for details.|of DEC VMS 6.0, for it is |
|Klein bottle for sale... inquire within. |subtle and quick to anger. |
+----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
Enrique Conty
In article <31E9E6...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>What I don't understand is how the Gunbuster managed to travel from
>the center of the galaxy to earth in a couple of months. I am
>looking at my astronomy book right now, and it states that the
>diameter of the galaxy is "at least 100,000 LY (light years)."
Methinks Gainax made a boo-boo. ^_^;;
>An interesting quote from my astronomy book: "For example, if a globular
>cluster of 100,000 stars could collapse into a black hole, it would be 300,000
>km in radius, a little less than half the radius of the Sun."
That's the size of the actual object. Hit your textbook again and find out
how far the event horizon would reach.
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Come to Anime Central, the Midwest's first anime convention!
Visit our website at http://www.mcs.net/~docangst/3w/ac/
M.R. Opel
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>1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
> earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
> years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
> shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
> the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
> the center of the galaxy. Even light takes thousands and
> thousands of years to travel from the center to us. So Amano
> and Takaya should have died long before they reached earth.
I remember reading in a physics text that it would be possible (in theory)
to circumnavigate the entire visible universe within a human
lifetime, if you were going very close to the speed of light. Of course,
the sun would have burned out billions of years ago by the time you got
back! I guess time slows down for the travellers to the point where
it would seem to them that they must have gone faster than C, but to
any outside observer, they didn't. And I guess that's what really
matters - that information never travels between two points faster than
C.
>2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
> have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
But compaired to what they were up against in the center of the Galaxy,
it didn't make much of a difference. The Enemy there could just plow
through Super-Exelion Class Ships, and there were billions of them. The
fleet that Gunbuster went up against in 5 was small in compairison, and I
don't think GB actually did much damage to it - they just fended off anything
that went after the Exelion.
>3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
> robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
> black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
> the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
almost destroyed fighting a single, fairly small Enemy. In 5, it
could take on thousands of Enemies. Goddess only knows what the
one in 6 was capeable of ^_^
>4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
> before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
> at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
> anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
they would build it to be able to withstand the pressures near the
center of Jupiter is beyond me. Maybe it was just a fortunate side
effect of being built to withstand the Alien's attacks.
>5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
a black hole, or even converting it to energy, would have much of an
effect on the center of the Galaxy, considering the huge black holes
and unimaginable releases of energy that are thought to occur there
naturally. I assume that there was more going on in the BHB than just
Jupiter becoming a small black hole; perhaps some sort of bizzare
chain reaction that created mass, or pulled it out of sub-space. (Hey,
if you can have Warp, why not violate mass-energy conservation as
well ^_^)
As an aside, don't you just love the scene where the BHB passes BEHIND
the planet in the Galactic Center, and still looks bigger than it? ^_^
Or the ring of debris it builds up during the final battle?
-Matt Opel
UConn Noriko Takaya Fan Club
Eric Lanier
Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) wrote:
: In article <31E9E6...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
: >What I don't understand is how the Gunbuster managed to travel from
: >the center of the galaxy to earth in a couple of months. I am
: >looking at my astronomy book right now, and it states that the
: >diameter of the galaxy is "at least 100,000 LY (light years)."
: Methinks Gainax made a boo-boo. ^_^;;
:
: >An interesting quote from my astronomy book: "For example, if a globular
: >km in radius, a little less than half the radius of the Sun."
: That's the size of the actual object. Hit your textbook again and find out
: how far the event horizon would reach.
How about the blackhole in the center of galaxy NGC 4261, in the constellation
of Virgo that was discovered by the Hubble Telescope. The disk surrounding
the blackhole has a diameter of 800lys. About a billion stars are smashed
down to the size of your fingernail.
The blackhole that was formed in GB was even more massive than this. Since the
bomb was imploded at the galactic core were the stars are very densely packed
together. I assume that the blackhole grew larger over thousands of years
from assimilating nearby stars.
: Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Eric
Sir Alby
> >the center of the galaxy to earth in a couple of months. I am
> >looking at my astronomy book right now, and it states that the
> >diameter of the galaxy is "at least 100,000 LY (light years)."
>
>
> >cluster of 100,000 stars could collapse into a black hole, it would be 300,000
> >km in radius, a little less than half the radius of the Sun."
>
> how far the event horizon would reach.
>
What exactly does the actual size of the black hole mean? I would think radius
of a black hole refers to it's event horizon. Since whatever is inside doesn't
really have much physical meaning. Laws of physics break down in there.
Quote from same textbook, "...for a black hole of the mass of the sun, light
would have to come within 1.5 km of its surface to be trapped. A solar mass
black hole, remember, is only 3km in radius." In other words, anything much
greater than 1.5 km of the black hole's surface can escape, given enough power.
A black hole's gravity is not any stronger than the sun it came from. So 100,000
solar mass stars would create a black hole with event horizon of 300,000 km
diameter.
howell
In article <4se26t$l...@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu>,
cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU says...
>
>Sir Alby (al...@slip.net) wrote:
>: Matthew Alt wrote:
>: >
>: > In <31E990...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>: > >
>: > >Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
>: > >
>: >
years. This is ofcourse due to the effects of traveling at near light
speed. The question should be how they got back in less than 30,000 years
even at light speed or if they used a gate why didn't they get back much
sooner. I think that they did use a Tannhauser gate which is more or less
instantanious. The problem was the bomb was literaly set off under their
feet and the gunbuster spent 30,000 years just fighting to get away from the
event horizon before the gate could be used. And remember being at the
bottom of a deep gravity well is just as good as near light speed for making
time go reeeely slow.
>: >
>: > >2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
>: > > have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
>: > > A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
>: > > the black hole bomb.
>: >
>: > It was made for Amano and her partner specifically.
>: >
>: I guess that's true.
>
>They did build a mass-production model (the "Sizzler"), presumably
>without a lot of the bells and whistles of the original.
Icould be completly wrong about this(and probably am) but I got the
impresion that the Gunbuster was built on the frame of an alien that had
somehow been captured, a one of a kind ocurrence.
Given that this was a manmade weapon and not a natural phenomenon it's
perfectly resonable that it would be much more powerfull then your every day
black hole.(did I just say that?)Also when an object collapses into
degenerate matter it releases an incredible amount of energy which would
probably be enough to stun the aliens an make them loose control for long
enough to fall into the black hole.Now go away and never tempt me to write a
post this long again!
Ken Arromdee
In article <31E990...@slip.net>, Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
> earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
> years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
> shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
> the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
> earth years, how can they not have aged?
Time dilation. Basically, when you travel near the speed of light, time slows
down for you. (There are a few complications, none of which are relevant
here.) This is one of the bits of real science stuck in there among all the
fake.
Ken Arromdee
In article <31E9E6...@slip.net>, Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Perhaps I didn't state my question clearly enough. I have no problem with
>time dilation as related to relativistic speeds. That is easy enough. What I
>don't understand is how the Gunbuster managed to travel from the center of the
>galaxy to earth in a couple of months.
Still time dilation. It took a couple of months of shipboard time and
thousands of years of Earth time.
Darren Lo
On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:44:01 -0700, Sir Alby (al...@slip.net) said something to the effect of:
: I thought about this one. It's not possible. Even at the galactic core, star's
: distances are much too great to be affected by a black hole even of immense size.
: I think someone else has mentioned that a black hole does not suck up stuff any
: more than the original sun's gravity did. The only way for a black hole to grow in
: size is through collisions with other stars. This is an almost non-existent
: possibility.
Obviously, all those MACHOs and WIMPs are what fed the black hole's mass
increase. :) :) :) No, I am not talking about pilots...
Sir Alby
Okay, since I asked the questions, I thought I'd post a summary of my
findings based on research into old physics and astronomy books and many
peoples helpful responses.
> Hello, I just watched Gunbuster and have a few questions.
>
> Spoilers ahead...
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> 1. Why does it take Amano and Takaya 12000 earth years to return to
> earth? Or, more to the point, how can it take 12000 earth
> years and yet, they didn't age a bit? If they had warped, it
> shouldn't have taken that long. If they were traveling near
> the speed of light, which would explain why they took 12000
> earth years, how can they not have aged? I mean, they were at
> the center of the galaxy. Even light takes thousands and
> thousands of years to travel from the center to us. So Amano
> and Takaya should have died long before they reached earth.
>
I was wrong. All those people who said time dilation was correct. According
to Special Relativity Theory, if you were travelling very near the speed of
light, you can travels thousands of lights years in no time at all to you.
The reason is that all time slows down according to the person travelling at
that speed. Not just clocks, but everything. The faster you go, the slower
the time.
However, the Gunbuster could not have travelled from the center of the galaxy
to earth in 12000 years, unless they were going faster than the speed of
light. This is because the distance from the center of the galaxy to earth
is ~30,000 light years (someone said), and so at the speed of light, it
should have taken the Gunbuster 30,000 years to get back. The fact that
they made it in 12000 years means they must have been travelling faster than
the speed of light at least some of the time.
> 2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
> have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
> A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
> the black hole bomb.
>
The general consensus seem to be because the Gunbuster was specially designed
to be piloted by Amano and Takaya. Even if there were more Gunbusters, there
wouldn't be qualified pilots for them. Also, the standard RX robots did
undergo radical changes in 20 years. Just not as good as the Gunbuster.
> 3. In the twenty years to the end of the series, why hasn't better
> robots than the Gunbuster been built. If they can build the
> black hole bomb, they can surely build something better than
> the Gunbuster, which made its first appearance in the 4th ep.
>
I'm not sure about this one, but there's been some thought that the Gunbuster
itself was getting improvements over time. So in a sense, by the sixth
episode, the Gunbuster was a better robot than in ep 4.
> 4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
> before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
> at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
> anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
>
It's anime seems to be the general response to this question.
> 5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
>
This one is the one that is most problematic. There is no way a black hole
large enough to consume the galaxy could have been made from a bomb the size
of the Gunbuster #3. Even with 100,000 solar mass stars, the black hole
created would still only have a event horizon of 300,000 kms, or roughly half
the diameter of the sun. So unless they found some way to generate as much
mass as the galaxy itself, the bomb could not have created a large enough
black hole to consume the center of the galaxy.
It has also been brought up that black holes cannot suck things. From a
distance much greater than the event horizon, black holes exert no more
gravitational influence than a star of equivalent mass. Therefore, the black
hole cannot grow in size by sucking up nearby stars. The distances involved
are simply too great.
Matthew Alt
In <4seanv$n...@nyx.cs.du.edu> karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ken Arromdee)
writes:
>Still time dilation. It took a couple of months of shipboard time and
>thousands of years of Earth time.
>--
You're missing his point. Isn't is more than two light-months to the
center of the Galaxy? It's a LOT more than that, I thought -- several
hundred light-years. So even at light speed........
-Matt
Brad Orahood
IT'S A SHOW! IT'S FICTION! GET OVER IT!!!
Sigh. Sorry 'bout that....
Kia
So if it was several hundred LY, and you went at 0.999c, it's take several hundred years and change. To you, it'd still
feel like 2 months or so (that's 'subjective time').
-Kia
Phat Hong Tran
In article <4sg9e9$g...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matthew Alt <goj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <4seanv$n...@nyx.cs.du.edu> karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ken Arromdee)
>writes:
>
>>Still time dilation. It took a couple of months of shipboard time and
>>thousands of years of Earth time.
>>--
>
>You're missing his point. Isn't is more than two light-months to the
>center of the Galaxy? It's a LOT more than that, I thought -- several
>hundred light-years. So even at light speed........
If what I recall about relativity is correct...
An object travelling at the speed of light experiences no progression of
time. It can whiz around the galaxy edge-to-edge and still be frozen in
time.
The Gunbuster didn't travel quite at the speed of light, but was going
fast enough that time did "slow down" for its passengers. So a trip
that seemed like two months on the Gunbuster actually spanned thousands
of light years.
Phat.
M.R. Opel
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
Spoilers!!!
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>>
>The general consensus seem to be because the Gunbuster was specially designed
>to be piloted by Amano and Takaya. Even if there were more Gunbusters, there
>wouldn't be qualified pilots for them. Also, the standard RX robots did
>undergo radical changes in 20 years. Just not as good as the Gunbuster.
eventually incorporated into the production model robots. The
"Sizzlers" in the last episode could probably eat the original
Gunbuster for lunch. Noriko and Kazumi are the best pilots, so they
get to try out the advanced, pre-production model. Hmmm... very
similar to Gundam ^_^
Humanity was forced to resort to the Black Hole Bombs in the end,
simply because there was no way to build or provide pilots for the
trillions of Sizzlers that would be needed to take on the Enemy
in a fair fight.
>I'm not sure about this one, but there's been some thought that the Gunbuster
>itself was getting improvements over time. So in a sense, by the sixth
>episode, the Gunbuster was a better robot than in ep 4.
Offense and defense were upgraded, and later versions needed two
pilots.
>> 4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
>> before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
>> at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
>> anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
>It's anime seems to be the general response to this question.
withstand the pressures generated by direct hits from the Enemy's weapons,
and so could do OK, even standing on the metallic hydrogen "surface" of
Jupiter. Maybe I'm trying too hard...
>> 5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
>> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
>
>This one is the one that is most problematic.
the Excelion or Jupiter would have had any significant effect. Since
it wasn't explained in the anime, it is up to the audience to think
of a way that enough mass could have been acreted (or created). Any
particle physicists out there?
-Matt O.
Franklin Wang
Speaking of Gunbuster, now that Manga has the rights, will they
be rereleasing it with a new translation or use the old one..
(hopefully new!)
Also LD release? (I hope!)
--
Franklin Wang
http://gaia.csus.edu/%7Ewangf/
Sir Alby
M.R. Opel wrote:
>
> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>
> Spoilers!!!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >to be piloted by Amano and Takaya. Even if there were more Gunbusters, there
> >wouldn't be qualified pilots for them. Also, the standard RX robots did
> >undergo radical changes in 20 years. Just not as good as the Gunbuster.
>
> eventually incorporated into the production model robots. The
> "Sizzlers" in the last episode could probably eat the original
> Gunbuster for lunch. Noriko and Kazumi are the best pilots, so they
> get to try out the advanced, pre-production model. Hmmm... very
> similar to Gundam ^_^
> Humanity was forced to resort to the Black Hole Bombs in the end,
> simply because there was no way to build or provide pilots for the
> trillions of Sizzlers that would be needed to take on the Enemy
> in a fair fight.
>
I've just rewatched Gunbuster for the 3rd time. What I have just realized is that
all this time, the Gunbuster has been traveling with Takaya. Since Takaya hasn't
aged much, we must assume the Gunbuster hasn't aged either. I mean, the Gunbuster
of Ep 4. was in fact the same Gunbuster in Ep 6., except in Ep 4. it was still
under construction. Anyone to dispute this should rewatch the tape. For the
Gunbuster, it hasn't been 20 years from Ep1 to Ep6. It's only been like one year.
The same as for Takaya.
So, the Sizzlers represent 20 earth years of technological advancement, but it
still doesn't match the original Gunbuster.
> >I'm not sure about this one, but there's been some thought that the Gunbuster
> >itself was getting improvements over time. So in a sense, by the sixth
> >episode, the Gunbuster was a better robot than in ep 4.
>
> Not in a sense; it WAS an entirely different, vastly improved robot.
> Offense and defense were upgraded, and later versions needed two
> pilots.
>
I think from the getgo the Gunbuster operates optimally with two pilots. Coachie
repeatedly says this throughout the show. It was never meant to be a one pilot
robot. It can be operated by one, but when Amano and Takaya operate it together,
it is like a inferno that cannot be stopped. Or some such paraphrased word
directly out of Coachie's mouth.
> >> 4. How can the Gunbuster, having been built and designed 20 years
> >> before the end of the series, withstand the pressure of being
> >> at the core of Jupiter. The creators couldn't possibly have
> >> anticipated the black hole bomb? Or did they?
>
> >It's anime seems to be the general response to this question.
>
> Well, that's no fun ^_^ How about this: the last Gunbuster was built to
> withstand the pressures generated by direct hits from the Enemy's weapons,
> and so could do OK, even standing on the metallic hydrogen "surface" of
> Jupiter. Maybe I'm trying too hard...
>
After having said what I said above, I believe the Gunbuster in Ep. 6 is the same
one in Ep. 4. Let's leave this one to: it's anime.
>
> >> 5. How can a tiny little bomb the size of the moon create a black hole
> >> large enough to consume the center of the galaxy?
> >
> >This one is the one that is most problematic.
>
> Yes, definitely. There is no way that making a BH with the mass of
> the Excelion or Jupiter would have had any significant effect. Since
> it wasn't explained in the anime, it is up to the audience to think
> of a way that enough mass could have been acreted (or created). Any
> particle physicists out there?
>
Additional thoughts.
It's a pretty amazing anime. It expresses the loneliness of space travel so well.
Everybody around Takaya lives their lives and ages, but for Takaya, it's been
like 2 years since the beginning of the show. She's still this bubbly bouncy girl
of 18? in ep. 6. She graduates when she's 17 but Kimiko already has a 3 year old
daughter. Makes me feel the immense loneliness that Takaya must have felt.
Chris C. Lesley
Phat Hong Tran (pht...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
: In article <4sg9e9$g...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
: Matthew Alt <goj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: >In <4seanv$n...@nyx.cs.du.edu> karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ken Arromdee)
: >writes:
: >
: >>Still time dilation. It took a couple of months of shipboard time and
: >>thousands of years of Earth time.
: >>--
: >
: >You're missing his point. Isn't is more than two light-months to the
: >center of the Galaxy? It's a LOT more than that, I thought -- several
: >hundred light-years. So even at light speed........
: If what I recall about relativity is correct...
: An object travelling at the speed of light experiences no progression of
: time. It can whiz around the galaxy edge-to-edge and still be frozen in
: time.
Not quite; it would experience a progression of time, but it would be
different from the time experienced outside the object.
: The Gunbuster didn't travel quite at the speed of light, but was going
: fast enough that time did "slow down" for its passengers.
Actually, time (elsewhere) speeded up for them.
: So a trip
: that seemed like two months on the Gunbuster actually spanned thousands
: of light years.
C.
Chris C. Lesley
5k51...@vms.csd.mu.edu wrote:
: > Well, I saw GunBuster last week and I'm pretty sure that they
: >Tanhausered back, but that since they were just barely this side of the
: >Event Horizon it took 'em 12,000 years to travel the 500 or so miles out of
: >the black hole...
: >
: > Gaijin
: I just wonder which scene gave the impression that the Gunbuster did a jump
: in space?
Well, Kazumi decided to join Noriko in her "suicide" mission so that they
would have a collapsing generator left over after they used the other to
detonate the black hole bomb. IOW, they *knew* they would need one to
get home.
Chris C. Lesley
Brad Orahood (szb...@boris.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: IT'S A SHOW! IT'S FICTION! GET OVER IT!!!
: Sigh. Sorry 'bout that....
Hey, someone had to say it...
gaijin
>Are you sure about that? I only saw GB once and it was
>a while ago, but I somehow got the impression that because
>of the reduced power supply, they were still able to use
>the Taunhauser effect but less effectively. Thus, their
>trip time was extended significantly (logarithmic response?)
>but not to the extent of depending totally on relativity.
Well, I saw GunBuster last week and I'm pretty sure that they
Tanhausered back, but that since they were just barely this side of the
Event Horizon it took 'em 12,000 years to travel the 500 or so miles out of
the black hole...
Gaijin
--
// Takahashi Rumiko is GODDESS
//
// This message is printed on 40% post conusmer pixels.
//
// "Don't worry, the sidewalk'll break your fall!!" - Yuri
//
// "Sorry to hear about your firing Kei... but now I'm abandoning you,
// my career, and all rational thought for a hilariously doomed marriage
// to slimepuppy here!" - Yuri
//
// Shirow Masamune is GOD.
gaijin
>I got the impression that the Tannhauser Drive could only
>be used in certain areas of space, "where the sea of space is calm" is
>how it was put in Gunbuster, I think. And even when they could travel
>faster than light, relativity held sway in normal space. Perhaps a
>"watered-down" version of relativity held in hyperspace...
Huh? I always thought that the reason it took 12,000 years to get
to Earth because they were just barely this side of the Event Horizon, and
that the 12,000 years were spent traveling the roughly 500 miles out of the
black hole, the they made a jump to Earth...
After all, the GunBuster was pretty beaten up. Even assuming that
it could accelerate normally to C, (and decelerate again), with its fuel, I
wouldn't want to subject it to too much stress in its condition. 'Sides
they had a Tanhauser drive left over, neh?
>: > >2. From the beginning of the series to the end, some 20 earth years
>: > > have passed. Why haven't they built more Gunbuster robots?
>: > > A couple hundred more of those and they might not have needed
>: > > the black hole bomb.
>: > It was made for Amano and her partner specifically.
>They did build a mass-production model (the "Sizzler"), presumably
>without a lot of the bells and whistles of the original.
And, it wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic <G>
Just jumping back into the fray...
Tomar
In article <31E999...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>,
<NO...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Sir Alby wrote:
[trimming to my point]
>"Only the size of the moon..."... here's something to think about.
>
>1 gram of regular matter and one gram of antimatter, when combined,
>have the explosive force of over one MILLON megatons. The moon
>weighs in the hundreds of millions of metric tonnes.
>
>Now, imagine a black hole, matter so tightly compressed that it is
>sharing the same space, that is built in a bomb the size of the
>Earth's moon. When it undergoes final collapse, the tidal stress,
>X-rays, and high energy particles released by the black hole
>will obliterate just about anything within a quarter of a million
>light years. If you make it right, it will dissolve into a mass
>of Hawkings radiation at a time you want, doing even more damage.
>
>The result-say good bye to the center of the galaxy.
A good question is how does loosing the center of the Milky
Way effect stellar mechanics of the entire galaxy?
Another grand question is I wonder if Earth payed to dearly
a price to win this battle? After all, they lost the orbits
of the outer planets and they had to use the second largest
piece of mass in our star system to create Gunbuster #3, which
will effect the orbits or all the remaining. We saw at
the beginning of #6, it was snowing in Okinawa, so the planet
can't be in that great of shape.
On the other other hand....if the Gunbuster didn't destroy
the threat, the human race would have been toast in only
a matter of time. *shrug*
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu |From "The Item", AX 96 Intro
Temporary Summer Home: |"Are we happy?"
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~tomar/anime.html |"We're happy...."
Sir Alby
Tomar wrote:
>
> A good question is how does loosing the center of the Milky
> Way effect stellar mechanics of the entire galaxy?
>
Well, since it was supposed to be a black hole bomb, stellar mechanics
are not affected. The mass is still there. It's just compressed really
tight, so tightly that light passing near it cannot escape.
> Another grand question is I wonder if Earth payed to dearly
> a price to win this battle? After all, they lost the orbits
> of the outer planets and they had to use the second largest
> piece of mass in our star system to create Gunbuster #3, which
> will effect the orbits or all the remaining. We saw at
> the beginning of #6, it was snowing in Okinawa, so the planet
> can't be in that great of shape.
>
I was under the impression that the first black hole bomb shifted the
Earth's orbit slightly and caused great damage. That's why the second
black hole bomb was detonated at the center of the Galaxy, in the
enemies front yard rather that ours. From that little piece of dialog,
I assumed blowing up the bomb would not have done great damage to Earth.
St. Suika Roberts
>>>>> "CCL" == Chris C Lesley <cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU> writes:
CCL>:>>Still time dilation. It took a couple of months of shipboard time and
CCL>:>>thousands of years of Earth time.
CCL>:>You're missing his point. Isn't is more than two light-months to the
CCL>:>center of the Galaxy? It's a LOT more than that, I thought --
CCL>:>several hundred light-years. So even at light speed........
CCL>: If what I recall about relativity is correct...
CCL>: An object travelling at the speed of light experiences no
CCL>: progression of time. It can whiz around the galaxy
CCL>: edge-to-edge and still be frozen in time.
CCL> Not quite; it would experience a progression of time, but it
CCL> would be different from the time experienced outside the object.
CCL>: The Gunbuster didn't travel quite at the speed of light, but
CCL>: was going fast enough that time did "slow down" for its
CCL>: passengers.
CCL> Actually, time (elsewhere) speeded up for them.
Stop right here. Time for the quick and dirty lesson in general
reletivity as it pertains to time dilation.
Light travels at a constant speed. No matter what your reference
point it goes the same speed. This is not terribly noticeable on
earth, but as one accelerates the light from the front of one's ship
ahead of it still has to go the same speed. The only way you can keep
the light going forward from being lapped by the ship following it is
for time to slow down on the ship. There have been experiments done
with jets and cesium clocks to prove it ^_^
It is less confuzleing with the diagrams and many more words, but this is
a quick and dirty lesson.
The closer one gets to the speed of light the slower time gets. The
fleet spends six months at a fraction of the speed of light gathering
at the center of the galaxy, while fifteen years pass back on Earth.
The Gunbuster (through some bit of luck involving a fried collapser
motor) boosted itself to a much larger fraction of the speed of light,
such that the fourteen thousand years it took to get home sublight was
dilated to hours for the Gunbuster itself.
CCL> : So a trip : that seemed like two months on the Gunbuster
CCL> actually spanned thousands : of light years.
It didn't seem like it took a short period of time, it did.
For Noriko, Kazumi, and Gunbuster the battle was just hours earlier,
despite everything outside their reference frame having undergone
several thousand years.
Adding to the confusion,
Suika
--
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the cats I won't be able to see until who knows when: Spot, Monster, Lish,
Cricket, Sam, Megan, Velcro, Maud, and Calli. Very sad. ;_;
<a href="http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~wrobert2/">Suika no homepage</a>
Chris C. Lesley
St. Suika Roberts (wrob...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu) wrote:
: >>>>> "CCL" == Chris C Lesley <cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU> writes:
: CCL>:>>Still time dilation. It took a couple of months of shipboard time and
: CCL>:>>thousands of years of Earth time.
: CCL>:>You're missing his point. Isn't is more than two light-months to the
: CCL>:>center of the Galaxy? It's a LOT more than that, I thought --
: CCL>:>several hundred light-years. So even at light speed........
: CCL>: If what I recall about relativity is correct...
: CCL>: An object travelling at the speed of light experiences no
: CCL>: progression of time. It can whiz around the galaxy
: CCL>: edge-to-edge and still be frozen in time.
: CCL> Not quite; it would experience a progression of time, but it
: CCL> would be different from the time experienced outside the object.
: CCL>: The Gunbuster didn't travel quite at the speed of light, but
: CCL>: was going fast enough that time did "slow down" for its
: CCL>: passengers.
: CCL> Actually, time (elsewhere) speeded up for them.
^^^^^^^^^
: Stop right here. Time for the quick and dirty lesson in general
: reletivity as it pertains to time dilation.
Notice that I said *elsewhere*. I am not referring to the Gunbuster frame.
: Light travels at a constant speed. No matter what your reference
: point it goes the same speed. This is not terribly noticeable on
: earth, but as one accelerates the light from the front of one's ship
: ahead of it still has to go the same speed. The only way you can keep
: the light going forward from being lapped by the ship following it is
: for time to slow down on the ship. There have been experiments done
: with jets and cesium clocks to prove it ^_^
Basically correct. :)
: It is less confuzleing with the diagrams and many more words, but this is
: a quick and dirty lesson.
: The closer one gets to the speed of light the slower time gets. The
: fleet spends six months at a fraction of the speed of light gathering
: at the center of the galaxy, while fifteen years pass back on Earth.
: The Gunbuster (through some bit of luck involving a fried collapser
: motor) boosted itself to a much larger fraction of the speed of light,
: such that the fourteen thousand years it took to get home sublight was
: dilated to hours for the Gunbuster itself.
Right. Now, what if Noriko and Kazumi had a telescope powerful enough to
see a clock on earth? What would that earth clock be doing? It would be
going like crazy. *That's* what I meant when I said that time elsewhere
speeded up.
: CCL> : So a trip : that seemed like two months on the Gunbuster
: CCL> actually spanned thousands : of light years.
: It didn't seem like it took a short period of time, it did.
: For Noriko, Kazumi, and Gunbuster the battle was just hours earlier,
: despite everything outside their reference frame having undergone
: several thousand years.
Right again. What we have here is a failure to communicate... :)
C.