Megumi vs. Wendee: who'd win?
Slithy Tove
deserves. While there are certainly worse dubs, I don't think the CB
dub is nearly as good as the Japanese original. I had been meaning to
post a comparison of Hayashibara Megumi's vs Wendee Lee's voice acting
as Faye for a while, but a minor flamewar in the "goodbye vhs
fansubs..." thread brought things to a head, and I decided to do it
now.
I had originally intended to just compare Megumi and Wendee. However,
Ryan mentioned the "Jupiter Jazz" episode as having, in his opinion,
some of the best of the English dub acting, so instead, I decided to
just go over those episodes with a fine-tooth comb. And after doing
one episode, I decided to leave it at that. Just going over one
episode carefully must have taken eight or ten hours. I listened to
every moment of the show at least five or six times, and some
sequences ten times or more. This episode contains substantial dialog
from most of the main players except Ed, and I'm not crazy about her
English OR Japanese voice actors. I don't think there's any point in
doing more. This episode is a pretty fair sample of what the voice
acting is like in Cowboy Bebop.
Some caveats before I start:
1. Yes, this is entirely subjective. I don't see how you can analyze
voice acting objectively. All I can do is try to explain why I like
what I like. If you can understand that, great. If you can't, feel
free to tell me why you like what YOU like.
2. This review is VERY nit-picking. If you wonder whether I actually
watch anime this way, the answer is no, of course not. I don't stop
and start and rewind and switch tracks constantly, trying to analyze
every nuance. I just watch the show. I wind up either liking it or not
liking it. But if I want to understand why I like it or don't like it,
I have to go back and listen to it in detail, and that's what I've
done here.
3. If you have any interest in this, I urge you to watch the DVD,
compare what's going on to what I've described, and decide whether you
agree with my impressions.
Parts of the show are identified by the DVD title number, chapter
number, and hours:minutes:seconds from the start of the episode, as
reported by my DVD player.
Abbreviations: JVA == Japanese Voice Actor/Actress; NAVA == North
American Voice Actor/Actress
Jupiter Jazz
Title 7, Chapter 2, 00:01:30
Old Indian, young Indian
The JVA's Indian child is more convincing as a child: you can hear the
wonder, and perhaps a little fear in his voice as he asks questions
about the meteor and the 'warrior'. The NAVA's child voice is the
usual sing-song of an adult actor who doesn't know how to portray a
child: "What warrior *is* it?" The voice is too bright, cheerful, and
unconcerned for the circumstances.
Both the JVA and NAVA do the old Indian man satisfactorily. I prefer
the JVA's version, the voice is deeper, grittier, slightly hoarse:
this is old man who has lived long, endured much, seen much, and I
think the JVA's voice does a better job of depicting this.
Nonetheless, the NAVA's performance is satisfactory.
--
Title 7, Chapter 2, 00:02:45
Vicious, Lin, and the Red Dragon
NAVA Vicious speaks in a monotone, sort of like Allen in Escaflowne.
At first I wondered whether it might be the same NAVA, but Allen's
NAVA is Brian Drummond, and Vicious's is not identified (as far as I
can tell), but probably isn't Drummond. Vicious's JVA, Wakamoto Norio,
makes him sound self-confident, wary and crafty, which is appropriate
for his character when dealing with the chiefs of the Red Dragon.
Vicious's NAVA just sounds drugged. Or bored. Both the JVA's and
NAVA's playing the Red Dragon chiefs are adequate, but nothing
special, playing their characters with stock 'sinister mob boss'
voices. Only the JVA playing the Red Dragon head, Wang Long (this name
has *got* to be a joke), stands out a little, and even he's nothing
special. The joke about Vicious's heart being colder than any planet's
climate, which should be both funny and chilling, kind of falls flat.
Lin's JVA is far superior to his NAVA. His JVA makes him sound like a
young mafioso: deferential to Vicious, somewhat nervous, eager to
impress, serious, idealistic, loyal. His NAVA seems to have no concept
of what Lin is about, his acting just drifts here and there, not
creating any sense of character. In the scene where Vicious and Lin
walk the corridor to the dropship, Vicious's NAVA drops the monotone,
tries to show some emotion, and blows it. He clearly has no idea of
what Vicious means when he tells Lin he will have to betray him.
Vicious's JVA does a credible job: his Vicious is icy cold,
impersonal, calculating. The NAVA's Vicious just sounds like an actor
who's seen too many B movies villains.
--
Title 7, Chapter 3, 00:05:30
Faye's goodbye note
At the beginning of this scene, as in many, many others, Spike's JVA,
Yamadera Kouhichi, just does a better job of capturing Spike's
world-weariness than David Lucas, his NAVA. Listen to both reading
Faye's goodbye letter. Lucas is just pitched too high, too light an
emotional state. And he reads the letter in a sing-song, his voice
rising and falling for no discernable reason. He's not acting. He's
not trying to depict the emotional state of Spike reading a letter
with that content. Do a thought experiment. Imagine anyone you know
reading that letter aloud, for the first time. Would they sound like
Spike? Lucas is not imitating life. He's imitating other acting.
Lucas, moreover, doesn't have Yamadera's range. When Ed announces that
she's made contact with a person of "Code name, Julia!", Spike almost
does a henshin. He leaps across the room, sticks his head on Ed's
shoulder, and yells, "Where is that coming from?!" He has just had a
vision of Julia, as he once knew her -- which the viewer gets in two
quick cuts -- and his body and face transform. His pose goes from
languid to tense, his face contorts, his eyes open wide. His voice
should reflect this sudden emotional agitation. Yamadera does a better
job than Lucas of conveying the abrupt change in Spike's emotional
state, and his inner turmoil. His voice fits better with the visuals
than Lucas's does. Listen to the J and the E tracks in turn, and the
superior intensity of Yamadera's performance becomes obvious.
At the end of this scene, there is a quick back-and-forth dialog
between Spike, as he rushes out, and Jet and Ed, after Spike is gone.
In the Japanese version, this is a rapid-fire exchange of words
between the characters, timed so that there is almost a rhythm to it:
the timing of the characters' words mirror their physical movements.
In the English version, the rhythm is lost, and the NAVA's almost step
on each other's lines. This is not really the fault of the NAVA's, but
of the NA director and NA film editor.
Jet's NAVA's argument with Spike while they are walking to the
dropship is pretty good, about on par with the JVA's version. Watching
it, I forget for a minute I'm listening to an actor; Jet sounds like a
real person, with real concerns, and a real relationship with Spike,
which is now breaking down.
After Spike's assertion "I'm going to look for *my* woman," the bad
acting starts again. I don't think Jet's JVA or NAVA do very well
here, both seem to overact. Maybe it's just that the script isn't very
convincing. Spike's NAVA acts in a sing-song, we don't get any hint of
what he's feeling, either for Julia, or about the destruction of his
relationship with Jet.
--
Title 7, Chapter 3, 00:10:00
Spike and the transvestites
Minor characters are indifferently acted in both languages, for
example, the 'man with the mallet' whom Spike speaks to. But what's up
with the Italian accent in the English version? The transvestites are,
again, stock types. The JVA's Julius is more convincingly seductive
when he suggests that Spike spend some time with him (listen to both
versions), but the rest of the acting in the scene is about equally
cliche'd in both English and Japanese.
--
Title 7, Chapter 3, 00:11:05
Faye drunk
I'm sorry, but Wendee just can't keep up with Megumi. Megumi's
slightly-drunken Faye is ironic, bemused, distant, unfazed by bad
fortune, unexcited by good fortune. Wendee seems to be trying for the
same flavor, but misses the mark badly. As with Lucas doing Spike,
Wendee's Faye sounds far too genki. When Gren tells her that there are
no women in the town, and Faye replies, "So then I'll be very
popular," Megumi's delivery is dry and bemused; there is a huge ironic
gulf between the words she is saying, and how she feels about them.
Wendee misses this entirely, her delivery of the line makes her sound
enthusiastic about the prospect.
And finally, Faye is *drunk*! Megumi's performance reflects this. Her
voice is slightly slurred, her thinking is fuzzy around the edges, her
emotions are dulled and somewhat defocused. Wendee misses this
completely, she plays Faye as cold sober.
Gren's NAVA gets some lines right, and blows others. "There are no
WOMEN in this TOWN." This is not the way anyone normally talks.
--
Title 7, Chapter 4, 00:12:21
Good action, lousy acting.
Again, both the JVA and NAVA play the small time hood as 'typical bad
guy'. Neither performance is especially good. I'm not really convinced
by either the JVA's or NAVA's performances as Spike; I think they fail
for opposite reasons. Yamadera overacts, and Lucas's performance is
ho-hum, he doesn't make me believe Spike is really feeling anything.
--
Title 7, Chapter 4, 00:14:30
NA Directorial goofs.
The NAVA for Punch can't decide whether he's supposed to be doing a
stereotype African-American accent, or a stereotype Mexican-American
accent. He flips from one to the other. <sigh> Where the hell's the
director? Even a bad actor ought to be able at least to stay on
accent, if the director is competent. Remember how Joel and the bots
used to have a great time making fun of actors whose accents wandered
around?
The NAVA bartender and Jet in the rest of the scene are okay, except
for the point where the bartender whispers to Jet. The JVA does a
stage-whisper (you can't do a real whisper in film, if you want the
audience to understand what is said): his voice becomes low and raspy,
and his tone conspiratorial. The NAVA does't even try, he speaks in a
near-normal tone of voice.
Even a good director can't turn a bad actor into a good one, but he
should be able to catch obvious mistakes, like an actor not whispering
when he's supposed to, or an actor not staying on accent. The NA
director isn't doing his job.
--
Title 7, Chapter 4, 00:15:55
Faye kicking ass
As usual, Wendee is a little too upbeat for the situation. She misses
the darker side of Faye. After all, here we have Faye drunk, picking a
fight, looking forward with enjoyment to hurting people. Megumi's
interpretation of Faye's lines acknowledges this dark side: through
the bravado, you can detect traces of the despair of someone who is
doing wrong, and knows they're doing wrong. Wendee's interpretation
just glosses over it: her Faye just wants to KICK SOME ASS, yeah,
baby, bring it on! <sigh>
--
Title 7, Chapter 4, 00:17:05
Faye and Gren, #2
This scene in the dub goes okay for the first half dozen lines, then
get clunky. Faye and Gren talking about his *killing* her is serious
stuff, even if they're talking about it lightly. You can hear this in
Megumi's voice; you can't in Wendee's. Throughout Faye's long
soliloquy on loneliness and the relationship of the individual and the
group, Wendee has the same problem we've seen before: her
interpretation of Fay is a couple of shades too perky. Faye's
situation is pretty dire. She's been knocked around most of her life,
she's a small-time criminal, and she's just burned her bridges with
the Bebop crew, probably the first people in a long time to treat her
decently. Why? Probably, reading between the lines of what she says,
because she's unable to accept normal human relationships. Wendee is
just too lighthearted about it. Megumi is distant and meditative; her
Faye sounds as if she's been thinking about this stuff for a long
time, which doubtless she has.
There are a couple of nice details in Megumi's voice acting in this
scene: when Faye leans her head over the back of a sofa, her voice
changes. Try this yourself: if you tilt your head back very far, and
then try to speak, your voice will be different than your normal
speaking voice because the physical shape of your throat changes,
which alters the timbre of your voice. Megumi mimics this effect
perfectly. Same thing after Faye takes a drink from her glass: there
is a brief sound as she catches her breath after swallowing, before
she speaks again. Wendee tries to do the same, but does it half as
well as Megumi, if that. Listen to both yourself, and see if you don't
agree. Accuracy in small details like this help to erase the 'fourth
wall', and allow the viewer to be drawn into the characters and the
scene. Blowing these small details, as the English dub does, does the
opposite, reminding the viewer that it's 'just a show', and breaks the
suspension of disbelief.
--
Title 7, Chapter 4, 00:20:35
Confrontations
Lucas actually handles most of his lines as Spike fairly well. A few
are dreadful, for example, "Like you using her name for your scummy
drug deals? I truly pity her for that." Vicious's NAVA is awful, as
usual.
At the same time Faye is seeing Gren naked. I prefer Megumi's 'Dochira
no yo?!?" to Wendee's "Which are you?!?" Megumi's voice just seems to
reflect more confusion, and a little bit of fear, fear of the
unnatural, than Wendee's.
Debriefing:
Although I usually listen to a little of the English dub when watching
any anime DVD, I had never watched the entirety of any one episode of
Bebop in the dub before. As you may have guessed by now, it didn't
change my opinion of the dub. I still think it's far inferior to the
original Japanese.
A few general conclusions:
1. Most of the minor characters have mediocre VA's, both in Japanese
and in English. Probably typical of minor characters in all media, who
will usually be played by lesser VA's than the characters at the top
of the series.
2. The NAVA playing Vicious is really bad. Period. I don't think I
heard one convincing line out of him. The JVA playing Vicious,
Wakamoto Norio, is fine.
3. The NAVA playing Gren has a few good lines, but is mediocre
overall. The JVA playing Gren is okay, nothing special.
4. The NAVA for Jet is almost as good as the JVA. Not quite, not
always, but almost. That's not only because Jet's NAVA is better than
the rest of the NA cast, but because the JVA for Jet is weaker than
the rest of the Japanese cast.
5. Yamadera Kouhichi is usually far superior to David Lucas as Spike.
6. Hayashibara Megumi is far, far, FAR superior to Wendee Lee as Faye.
Both the last two, Lucas and Lee, have similar problems with their
characters. First, they play them several emotional levels too high.
These are dark characters, with dark and violent pasts, and uncertain
futures. And they know it. I can hear that darkness, that
world-weariness, that uncertainty about the future in almost every
syllable out of the mouths of Yamadera Kouhichi and Hayashibara
Megumi. I don't hear it from David Lucas and Wendee Lee. They sound
like a couple of callow 20-somethings from an American sitcom.
Worse, neither one is really acting. Neither one is depicting how real
people talk, how they space the syllables in their speech, how they
place emphasis on words. I *think* they're imitating what they've seen
other mediocre actors do on TV. I challenge anyone reading this to try
repeating some of Lucas's or Lee's dialog aloud, watching yourself in
a mirror. If you were in the character's situation where this dialog
was spoken, is that how you would talk? Do you know *anyone* who talks
like that? Have you heard anyone talk like that in real life? It will
become apparent quickly how unnatural Lucas and Lee sound.
The other problem that the NAVA's have is that they frequently
misunderstand the characters. In the bar scene with Gren, Lee misses
that Faye is drunk, and misses that she's being ironic in what she
says to Gren. Lin's actor misses most of what his character is about.
Lucas misses a good bit of the emotional range of Spike, in the scene
in which he thinks he learns that she is on Callisto.
Finally, let me say that I do not understand the frequent comments
that Hayashibara Megumi isn't as good in Bebop as she is in her 'loud
girl' roles. IMO, she is utterly superb, probably the best of the
JVA's. Her Faye is rich and complex, both chilling and charming, with
tremendous depth and pathos.
Watching this episode of Bebop in this degree of detail was an
interesting experience. I really enjoyed it. Bebop does not get stale
even with many viewings. Every time I watched it, I saw new depths,
subtleties, and visual and auditory details that I hadn't noticed
before. This is truly a great show.
I originally fired-up the dub-aficionados by saying that the CB dub
'sucked', and the voice acting was 'wretched'. I was a little too
harsh, especially in using the word 'wretched'. But only a little. The
voice acting in the CB dub isn't wretched, it just...isn't very good.
It is far inferior to the Japanese voice acting. English anime voice
acting still has a long way to go before it catches up to the
Japanese. I suspect I'll be watching subs for a long time to come.
Now -- flame away. ^_^
== Tove
--
It's a breathing technique.
sanjian
news:76vl7t4divjb7md68...@4ax.com...
> Finally, let me say that I do not understand the frequent comments
> that Hayashibara Megumi isn't as good in Bebop as she is in her 'loud
> girl' roles. IMO, she is utterly superb, probably the best of the
> JVA's. Her Faye is rich and complex, both chilling and charming, with
> tremendous depth and pathos.
I'd also like to point out that this isn't a role that even her most devote
fans thought she could pull off quite this well. Really, the only thing
we've heard similar to Faye is Aichika, and even then.
I almost wonder if Wendee didn't have "This is a Megumi part" running in the
back of her head. Perhaps that tainted her understanding of Faye.
--
san...@widomaker.com
http://www.widomaker.com/~sanjain
President P.A.C. Order of the Mallet
----------------------------------------------------------
Smile -- Ruka
Rythem -- Corvette
Dignaty -- Extra
Guts -- Layla
Tomadachi -- Parapu
Kokoro -- Shion
Believe in yourself -- Yuri
Kyle Thomas Pope
wrote:
>The Cowboy Bebop English dub gets a lot of praise, more, IMO, than it
>deserves. While there are certainly worse dubs, I don't think the CB
>dub is nearly as good as the Japanese original.
<snippage>
While english dubs do have some way to go before they fully match the
original Japanese, Cowboy Bebop does represent something of a high
water mark for english dubbing of anime. You must remember in your
analysis that the standard is the quality of dubs that have gone
before. Whatever failings the CB dub may have, clearly the actors
took the roles and characters seriously and did not dismiss it as
"just a cartoon".
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered." - No. 6
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> "Slithy Tove" <sli...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:76vl7t4divjb7md68...@4ax.com...
>
> > Finally, let me say that I do not understand the frequent comments
> > that Hayashibara Megumi isn't as good in Bebop as she is in her 'loud
> > girl' roles. IMO, she is utterly superb, probably the best of the
> > JVA's. Her Faye is rich and complex, both chilling and charming, with
> > tremendous depth and pathos.
>
> I'd also like to point out that this isn't a role that even her most devote
> fans thought she could pull off quite this well. Really, the only thing
> we've heard similar to Faye is Aichika, and even then.
>
> I almost wonder if Wendee didn't have "This is a Megumi part" running in the
> back of her head. Perhaps that tainted her understanding of Faye.
>
Probably not. Wendee Lee is a long-time professional VA,
even directs, and she's in a lot of productions, anime and not.
I think she's professional enough to not act like
an intimidated amateur or rookie in the voice booth.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/___ |__| |__|___| \ ___|
sanjian
news:Pine.BSO.4.10.101020...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu..
.
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, sanjian wrote:
> > I almost wonder if Wendee didn't have "This is a Megumi part" running in
the
> > back of her head. Perhaps that tainted her understanding of Faye.
> >
>
> Probably not. Wendee Lee is a long-time professional VA,
> even directs, and she's in a lot of productions, anime and not.
> I think she's professional enough to not act like
> an intimidated amateur or rookie in the voice booth.
Doesn't really mean anything. On my watch team, I had a mechanic who had
been in 16 years. Even qualified senior in-rate. He still wasn't very
good.
Ryan Mathews
into this comparison. I can't refute it, because I'd have to go to the
same amount of effort, and quite frankly, I just don't have the desire at
this point. So I nobly forfeit this part of the argument to you, offering
only the following pale and weak response:
I've listened to Megumi.
I've listened to Wendee.
Wendee sounds mature and sexy, as Faye should.
I kept expecting Megumi to shout "DRAGON SLAVE" whenever she got mad.
I'm by no means the only one who feels this way.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com ICQ#: 11539925
Fanfic archive: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~mathews/
Columns: "Last Exit Before Toll" http://www.anipike.com/lastexit/
"The Dub Track" http://www.akadot.com/column/
sanjian
news:Xns903DA9090ma...@198.99.146.18...
> I just want to say that I admire you for amazing amount of effort that
went
> into this comparison. I can't refute it, because I'd have to go to the
> same amount of effort, and quite frankly, I just don't have the desire at
> this point. So I nobly forfeit this part of the argument to you, offering
> only the following pale and weak response:
>
> I've listened to Megumi.
> I've listened to Wendee.
> Wendee sounds mature and sexy, as Faye should.
> I kept expecting Megumi to shout "DRAGON SLAVE" whenever she got mad.
> I'm by no means the only one who feels this way.
o_O Wow. I tend to keep forgetting that it's Megu-sama voicing her. I can
hear none of her hyperactive roles in Faye.
A Shelton
Great analysis, really interesting to read even though I don't
own the DVD. I find it easy to visualise the same differences
in grade in the subs/dubs i've listened to.
It's also my standard rule of thumb that western VA's have a
really tough time with young schoolgirl `cute'. The whole idea
just sounds wrong in english. As such Be-bop, with it's mature
roles, is probably a good example as a comparison piece, especially
given it's status.
Then again, Megumi shines even by Japanese standards :)
--
Apparently I'm insane, but I'm one of the happy kinds. (dilbert)
Andrew Shelton ashe...@cs.rmit.edu.au
GCS(2.1)-d+H+sw+v-C++UL+>L+++E-N++WV--R++tv-b+D++e+fr*y?
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> "S.t.A.n.L.e.E" <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.BSO.4.10.101020...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu..
> .
> > On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, sanjian wrote:
>
> > > I almost wonder if Wendee didn't have "This is a Megumi part" running in
> the
> > > back of her head. Perhaps that tainted her understanding of Faye.
> > >
> >
> > Probably not. Wendee Lee is a long-time professional VA,
> > even directs, and she's in a lot of productions, anime and not.
> > I think she's professional enough to not act like
> > an intimidated amateur or rookie in the voice booth.
>
> Doesn't really mean anything. On my watch team, I had a mechanic who had
> been in 16 years. Even qualified senior in-rate. He still wasn't very
> good.
>
Actually, if you check her resume, it means a lot.
She's done more roles (VA and beyond) and more voices
than even Megumi, except sing.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> "Ryan Mathews" <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns903DA9090ma...@198.99.146.18...
> > I just want to say that I admire you for amazing amount of effort that
> went
> > into this comparison. I can't refute it, because I'd have to go to the
> > same amount of effort, and quite frankly, I just don't have the desire at
> > this point. So I nobly forfeit this part of the argument to you, offering
> > only the following pale and weak response:
> >
> > I've listened to Megumi.
> > I've listened to Wendee.
> > Wendee sounds mature and sexy, as Faye should.
> > I kept expecting Megumi to shout "DRAGON SLAVE" whenever she got mad.
> > I'm by no means the only one who feels this way.
>
> o_O Wow. I tend to keep forgetting that it's Megu-sama voicing her. I can
> hear none of her hyperactive roles in Faye.
>
I could. But then, I'm very used to Japanese voices,
and especially hers. She still did good though.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> I just want to say that I admire you for amazing amount of effort that went
> into this comparison. I can't refute it, because I'd have to go to the
> same amount of effort, and quite frankly, I just don't have the desire at
> this point. So I nobly forfeit this part of the argument to you, offering
> only the following pale and weak response:
>
> I've listened to Megumi.
> I've listened to Wendee.
> Wendee sounds mature and sexy, as Faye should.
>
Maybe this could also be chucked onto cultural differences.
What sounds mature and sexy to deeper-pitched westerners
is different from what sounds mature and sexy to the Japanese
who are more used to higher-pitched hyperactive giggly females.
Laters. =)
STan
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Slithy Tove <sli...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Great analysis, really interesting to read even though I don't
> own the DVD. I find it easy to visualise the same differences
> in grade in the subs/dubs i've listened to.
>
> It's also my standard rule of thumb that western VA's have a
> really tough time with young schoolgirl `cute'. The whole idea
Probably true.
Young schoolgirl westerners don't act to be cute
the same way young Japanese schoolgirls act to be cute.
I just can't see young Western girls act like girls in anime do.
> just sounds wrong in english. As such Be-bop, with it's mature
> roles, is probably a good example as a comparison piece, especially
> given it's status.
>
Probably. Also, Bebop has a lot of Western feel to it:
the old Hollywood feel (somehow reminds me of Casablanca),
the names, the looks, etc.
Laters. =)
Stan
Slithy Tove
<sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>Probably. Also, Bebop has a lot of Western feel to it:
>the old Hollywood feel (somehow reminds me of Casablanca),
>the names, the looks, etc.
Bebop has an extremely Western feel to it, in the music, in the sets,
in the characters, in everything. It's got Casablanca in it, but it's
also got 'Secret Agent', 'Route 66', 1970's trucker movies, road
movies from every era, 1940's gangster flicks, kung-fu movies, and
huge hunks of every kind of American pop culture. It's most
un-Japanese Japanese show I've ever seen, I think. I realized while
watching it this last time that I don't think I had ever seen anyone
change from shoes to slippers on entering a building. Or bow. That's
pretty unusual in an anime show.
No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
Child.' Any other sightings anyone can think of, for characters who
aren't obviously Asian, like the Red Dragon? And do they remove their
shoes even once?
== Tove
--
A rainbow rat...a checkered cat
Olivier Hagué
wrote:
>Bebop has an extremely Western feel to it, in the music, in the sets,
>in the characters, in everything.
"Western", maybe sometimes, but not really "American"...
>I realized while
>watching it this last time that I don't think I had ever seen anyone
>change from shoes to slippers on entering a building. Or bow. That's
>pretty unusual in an anime show.
Er... Not that unusual, in a SF series? ^^;
>No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
>Child.'
This sequence took place in Singapore...
Kyle Thomas Pope
wrote:
>No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
>Child.' Any other sightings anyone can think of, for characters who
>aren't obviously Asian, like the Red Dragon? And do they remove their
>shoes even once?
Well Jet does whip up a chinese dish (sans a key ingredient) in the
first episode and Spike eats it with ohashi (chopsticks).
But which characters in CB are Asian? It's likely that Faye is Asian
given she was raised in Singapore and as likely as not her name is
spelled "Fei" (probably not, actually, but I can't do Chinese
characters on this newsreader.). But she certainly doesn't behave in
any way like the standard Asian stereotype. Other than that I can't
pin a firm ethnicity on Spike, Jet or Ed. The ethnicities we have
seen are extensive and varied from Hispanics to Whites to Blacks to
Asians to Native Americans. And the different ethnic groups don't
seem to have congregated into their own little enclaves.
Louis Patterson
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 12:17:40 -0500, Slithy Tove <sli...@pobox.com>
> wrote:
>
> >No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
> >Child.' Any other sightings anyone can think of, for characters who
> >aren't obviously Asian, like the Red Dragon? And do they remove their
> >shoes even once?
>
> Well Jet does whip up a chinese dish (sans a key ingredient) in the
> first episode and Spike eats it with ohashi (chopsticks).
That's not really evidence, you know...
> But which characters in CB are Asian? It's likely that Faye is Asian
> given she was raised in Singapore and as likely as not her name is
> spelled "Fei" (probably not, actually, but I can't do Chinese
> characters on this newsreader.). But she certainly doesn't behave in
> any way like the standard Asian stereotype. Other than that I can't
> pin a firm ethnicity on Spike, Jet or Ed. The ethnicities we have
> seen are extensive and varied from Hispanics to Whites to Blacks to
> Asians to Native Americans.
> And the different ethnic groups don't
> seem to have congregated into their own little enclaves.
???? Are you *sure* about that? Looked pretty much Planet == ethnicity to
me...
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
Nikkou
o_h...@noos.fr.pasdespameuuuuh.invalid (Olivier Hagué) wrote:
>>No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
>>Child.'
>
>This sequence took place in Singapore...
It's very obvious you haven't been to Singapore...
Does it ever say in Bebop that it was actually Singapore? I know it was
based on Singapore scenery. Nice and exotic (to Japanese. :)
-Nikkou.
--
Nikkou <nik...@mail.com>
Diverse Musings: http://home.opendir.org/nikkou/
"Kiwi. Strawberry. Peach."
Kyle Thomas Pope
<lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
>> Well Jet does whip up a chinese dish (sans a key ingredient) in the
>> first episode and Spike eats it with ohashi (chopsticks).
>
>That's not really evidence, you know...
The original poster was looking for indications of Asian behavior
patterns in the principle characters. The only thing I remember was
Spike eating with chopsticks in the first episode. He had commented
that for a Japanese show there was very little "Japanese" in it.
>> And the different ethnic groups don't
>> seem to have congregated into their own little enclaves.
>
>???? Are you *sure* about that? Looked pretty much Planet == ethnicity to
>me...
I doubt that. This culture looked highly mobile to me. Everywhere
the Bebop went the Gates were very busy with inbound and outbound
traffic. The Gates seemed to have made getting around the Solar
System easier for them than it is for us to get around a single
planet.
Olivier Hagué
>In article <3a7d9819...@news.noos.fr>,
>o_h...@noos.fr.pasdespameuuuuh.invalid (Olivier Hagué) wrote:
>>>No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
>>>Child.'
>>
>>This sequence took place in Singapore...
>
>It's very obvious you haven't been to Singapore...
Not in 2007, I must admit...
>Does it ever say in Bebop that it was actually Singapore?
Not during the series, but the authors said it was Singapore (Newtype
Film Book 6, pages 61, 69 and 73).
Nikkou
o_h...@noos.fr.pasdespameuuuuh.invalid (Olivier Hagué) wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:54:01 +0800, nik...@mail.com (Nikkou) wrote:
>>In article <3a7d9819...@news.noos.fr>,
>>o_h...@noos.fr.pasdespameuuuuh.invalid (Olivier Hagué) wrote:
>>>>No, wait, I think chibi-Faye bows at least once in 'Speak Like a
>>>>Child.'
>>>
>>>This sequence took place in Singapore...
>>
>>It's very obvious you haven't been to Singapore...
>
>Not in 2007, I must admit...
You do understand that your reply that the sequence took place in Singapore
implies that it is a normal custom to bow in Singapore. That is misleading.
Even if they moved the mainland Chinese to Singapore I doubt if it'll be
customary to bow there in 2007. Bowing is a rare act among the Chinese
nowadays (except in movies and anime...). There is a lot of stereotyping
and cliche that is used as a shorthand to convey messages, but please don't
pass them off as facts. (Not that there is anything wrong with bowing, it's
just that it is really not the norm.)
>>Does it ever say in Bebop that it was actually Singapore?
>
>Not during the series, but the authors said it was Singapore (Newtype
>Film Book 6, pages 61, 69 and 73).
In the rest of my reply, which you so handily snipped out, I did say it was
obviously based on Singapore. My only question was if it was ever mentioned
in the series itself. Thanks for the reference tho, it's nice to have
something substantial instead of unvalidated opinions.
Olivier Hagué
>You do understand that your reply that the sequence took place in Singapore
>implies that it is a normal custom to bow in Singapore.
Maybe, but that's not what I meant as I don't (or, rather, "didn't"
^^) know if it's a normal custom to bow in Singapore...
I was just saying that the scene didn't take place in a "western" or
"American" setting, that's all...
>>>Does it ever say in Bebop that it was actually Singapore?
>>
>>Not during the series, but the authors said it was Singapore (Newtype
>>Film Book 6, pages 61, 69 and 73).
>
>In the rest of my reply, which you so handily snipped out, I did say it was
>obviously based on Singapore.
Not just _based_. Like I said, Faye is supposed to be from Singapore,
according to the authors...
I snipped the rest of your reply because I had nothing to add (it's
supposed to be Singapore, so yeah, it's obviously "based on actual
Singapore"... what did you want me to say? ^_^;)...
>My only question was if it was ever mentioned
>in the series itself.
And I answered, right? ^^;
Nikkou
o_h...@noos.fr.pasdespameuuuuh.invalid (Olivier Hagué) wrote:
That was the only thing you did right.
Does that excuse misleading people by sloppy thinking, and only replying to
the parts of posts you feel like answering instead of addressing the whole
reply? Do me and the rest of us a favour, read the whole post and think
first before rushing in to show how smart you are, and leave intact the
paragraphs you're replying to so others can draw their own conclusions from
more than just what you think is enough (for you).
Olivier Hagué
>>>My only question was if it was ever mentioned
>>>in the series itself.
>>
>>And I answered, right? ^^;
>
>That was the only thing you did right.
You're sooooo nice... -__-;
>Does that excuse misleading people by sloppy thinking, and only replying to
>the parts of posts you feel like answering instead of addressing the whole
>reply?
And replying to a 27-line post by just 7 lines without snipping
anything is a very smart thing to do, I guess?...
Geeze...
I already explained that I prefer not to quote when I've nothing to
add as a reply... And I believe it's the least I can do for those who
don't have cheap/quick connections...
What did you want me to reply to your "I know it's based on
Singapore", since I already explained that it's supposed to be
Singapore anyway? It's just a waste of time and money for everybody
(much like this very quarrel you just initiated)...
>Do me and the rest of us a favour, read the whole post and think
>first before rushing in to show how smart you are, and leave intact the
>paragraphs you're replying to so others can draw their own conclusions from
>more than just what you think is enough (for you).
Is being that antipathetic a choice of life?... I wonder...
<sigh>
Nikkou
o_h...@noos.fr.pasdespameuuuuh.invalid (Olivier Hagué) wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:18:33 +0800, nik...@mail.com (Nikkou) wrote:
>>>>My only question was if it was ever mentioned
>>>>in the series itself.
>>>
>>>And I answered, right? ^^;
>>
>>That was the only thing you did right.
>
>You're sooooo nice... -__-;
>
>>Does that excuse misleading people by sloppy thinking, and only replying to
>>the parts of posts you feel like answering instead of addressing the whole
>>reply?
>
>And replying to a 27-line post by just 7 lines without snipping
>anything is a very smart thing to do, I guess?...
>Geeze...
[....]
There, I snipped the rest of what you wrote. Happy?
and... tho perhaps this thread doesn't quite merit it:
"My S&M dominatrix forbids me from posting to this thread any longer.
(Don't worry - our relationship is purely physical.)" ;]
Credits-
Concept: Nikkou
Actualization: Ben Cantrick
Thanks, Ben. ;)
ataruk...@my-deja.com
sli...@pobox.com wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:36:18 -0500, "S.t.A.n.L.e.E"
> <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>
> >Probably. Also, Bebop has a lot of Western feel to it:
> >the old Hollywood feel (somehow reminds me of Casablanca),
> >the names, the looks, etc.
>
> Bebop has an extremely Western feel to it, in the music, in the sets,
> in the characters, in everything. It's got Casablanca in it, but it's
> also got 'Secret Agent', 'Route 66', 1970's trucker movies, road
> movies from every era, 1940's gangster flicks, kung-fu movies, and
> huge hunks of every kind of American pop culture. It's most
> un-Japanese Japanese show I've ever seen, I think. I realized while
> watching it this last time that I don't think I had ever seen anyone
> change from shoes to slippers on entering a building. Or bow. That's
> pretty unusual in an anime show.
>
are white, I think Faye is supossed to be Chinese and Ed is a mix. The
other characters come from every background. Though I am not exactly
thrilled on how Africans are portrayed. Their either like
blackploitation movies or cold killers like the villiain of Black Dog
Serenade.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
ataruk...@my-deja.com
<29F762B6E7B2E3DC.439EAD68...@lp.airnews.net>,
a Jewfro. Jet is white and Ed is a mix of Russian/French/Chinese based
on her last names.
Olivier Hagué
>Though I am not exactly
>thrilled on how Africans are portrayed. Their either like
>blackploitation movies or cold killers like the villiain of Black Dog
>Serenade.
Ed was supposed to be a black boy, in the beginning... As for why
exactly this was changed, I sincerely hope it's not related to your
remark... ^^;
Olivier Hagué
>Ed is a mix of Russian/French/Chinese based on her last names.
But since she came up with these names, they're probably not
relevant... ^^;
(according to episode 24, though... ^^)
ataruk...@my-deja.com
kusa <ku...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
> ataruk...@my-deja.com schrieb :
>
> > I'm guessing they did not know how to make a black boy seem cute in
an
> >anime way. That if Ed was black, they would have no idea on how to
write
> >the character without using negative sterotypes. Japanese could be
very
> >racist towards blacks, the Govenor of Tokyo calls them "doggies."
Where
> >did you hear or read that Ed was suppossed to be a black boy?
>
> errr...there are a number of colored people in anime/manga and the
> creators deal quite well with them ^^;;
> Rally Vincent in gunsmith Cats 's dark skinned (not "black" , but at
> least she's mixed ) , same goes for Nadia , suu's also dark skinned
> (and her origins are clear ) , Shion in PSME also , Casca in berserk
> , Farn in Seraphc Feather and so on ...
> I'm just showing that they can use dark skinned characters in very
> normal way if they want ...and in anime like Excel Saga some of the
> stereotypes are used in a quite intelligent way , without any feeling
> of racism or discrimination (from my point of view )...
>
> Japanese can be very racists but on an upper layer i don't think it's
> a problem for them to have cute black anime characters ...as they
> don't mind having lesbian or homosexual couples in anime though in the
> social life they may not be so easy going ...
>
I'm in Japan right now, the only people depicted worse than Africans
are Koreans. Some of the dolls or figures depicted black people look
like their from the first half of this century or the 19th century.
ataruk...@my-deja.com
ho...@simpson.com (Homer) wrote:
> ataruk...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >> That was a misunderstanding by a fan, based on Spike's family name.
> >He
> >> brought it up at a con panel, but the writer said he really didn't
> >intend
> >> that. Though he didn't follow up with what Spike's nationality
> >actually
> >> was, so I figure it's not important, and may well be Jewish.
> >
> > It would be funny if American fans gave the Bebop team an idea and
we
> >see Spike reciting the Mourner's Kadish or something in the movie. Or
he
> >talks to a Rabbi about his problems.
>
> Something like this?
>
> Yeah something like that but why did they use the Shoujo manga Spike.
The Shojou Manga CB is very weird.