Can American's make "manga"?
Fish Eye No Miko
Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
Catherine Johnson.
--
Remove "3AT" to reply
"The glamorous L.A. life... Getting coffee and chaining the boss to the
bed."
-Cordelia Chase, _Angel_
Jim Lazar
Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net...
> Hey, all.
>
> Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
> who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
> about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
> cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a
manga?
They can draw a manga-style comics, but it really wouldn't be a manga coming
from an non-Japanese to a non-Japanese audience. Now if a Japanese company
happens to hire him to create manga... maybe then.
I have no ilusions that my fanfics are jaded and altered from my American
upbringing and would never concider them 'Dojinshis' (Japanese fan works).
They are fanfics writen by an American for a primarily American audience.
Although I've had Garden of Eva translated into several languages by other
fans, so it is more international. I'm still waiting to see if someone wants
to translate it into Japanese, but even then I'd still concider it an
American creation based on the style of Japanese anime and manga despite
it's language.
Enrique Conty
Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
And racism raises its ugly head once more.
No, he doesn't have to be Japanese, or even Asian.
All you need is to put pen to paper and draw.
Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need a
certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
*don't* have.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@enteract.com
http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
Josh F. Lesnick, Raul, Taba-kun, etc...
"Fish Eye No Miko" <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Hey, all.
Hello.
> Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him
(somewhat
> fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to
be. I
> said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that
someone
> who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big
arguemtn
> about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
> cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a
manga?
> Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
First of all "Can an American make a manga." is a bad way to phrase
it. "Manga"'s still an arbitrary term when used outside of its
homeland, but most people use it to refer ONLY to works made in Japan
for a Japanese audience. So to this question, most people would give a
firm, flat-out "NO!"
As for whether or not a non-Japanese person can do a work that's
genuinely inspired by manga, with the look and feel that captures the
spirit of a Japanese comic naturally, well...
Opinions on this matter vary wildly, to say the least. =/ If you ask
me, I beleive that a comic artist's work is the product of everything
he or she has experienced, so if they spend several years watching a
great deal of anime and reading a great deal of manga, it would make
perfect sense that signs of it would show up in their art style, and
after enough time, maybe even getting to the point where their art
almost completely resembles the work of artists from Japan.
Understanding Japan's culture does help, but I don't think a complete
experience is absolutely necessary, in my opinion. I really can't see
any reason why it would have to be. It makes no sense to say that
having SOME Japanese influences in your work is the same as having none.
I think the main problem here is that people see this issue in terms of
black and white. Some artists say their work IS manga and that there's
no difference at all between their work and that of a Japanese artist
(and I know I used to do this. I've wisened up since then, honest.
^_^;;;). Then there are those who say American's can only do Western
work, and if it looks like manga, they MUST be faking. But the truth
is that it can be, and often is, somewhere in between.
I like to say my work is composed of about 40-50% Japanese influence,
the rest coming from Western influences. An artist like, say, Joe Mad
looks to have about a 10%-15% Japanese influence, and hell, why limit
this to Western artists? Masamune Shirow's got an abvious Western
slant to his work, maybe about 10 or 20%.
In conclusion....
Okay, I can't think of a conclusion, but I really do hope what I said
made sense to most of ya. ^_^;
Les
--
I am not Josh Lesnick
I am not an artist.
http://studio-zoe.com is not my website.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tim Malone
>In article <86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
>
>And racism raises its ugly head once more.
>
>No, he doesn't have to be Japanese, or even Asian.
>All you need is to put pen to paper and draw.
>
>Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need a
>certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
>*don't* have.
>
>--
> E n r i q u e C o n t y
> co...@enteract.com
> http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
> Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
It can sound Latin, but that is all. It is a cultural thing. Can the British
make an American sitcom, can the Americans make a British sitcom. the answer
is no. It could still be good, but it couldn't be in the same category.
Tim Malone
Enrique Conty
Tim Malone <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
>manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
>is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
Look up... oh, what was it, Orquesta Del Sol?...
a Japanese salsa band. They sound fine enough.
Don't tell me I *can't* create art in a specific style just because
I'm a "foreigner". Say "unlikely", say "improbable", but don't
fscking say I *can't*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Danielle Scott
Enrique Conty <co...@enteract.com> wrote:
>In article <86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
>>said he does [...]
>
>certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
>*don't* have.
Excatly, there is a lot of artists here in America that draws manga or at least
in the form of doujinshi. Look at more popular artist like Dejesus
(http://www.icongrp.com/~banzai/), L0cke (http://locke.anime.net/), and
Warren (http://www.adamwarren.com) I bet you any "Joe" who sees their
work would think they are Japanese without knowing their names first hand.
As far as Fan "artistes", there is quite a few who could
go pro if they wanted to.. Like Saka (http://clearscape.com/~aircastle/),
DS
--
------
Danielle Scott
pir...@pirotas.com My boredom has outshined the sun
http://www.pirotas.com "Plume" - Smashing Pumpkins
Robert Hutchinson
> Tim Malone wrote:
> >well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
> >manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
> >is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
>
> Look up... oh, what was it, Orquesta Del Sol?...
> a Japanese salsa band. They sound fine enough.
>
> Don't tell me I *can't* create art in a specific style just because
> I'm a "foreigner". Say "unlikely", say "improbable", but don't
> fscking say I *can't*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think there's a bit of miscommunication here.
Does the Japanese language call all comic-like works manga, or just those
of a similar style to "real" manga? ("Anime" does and doesn't include
non-Japanese animation, depending on the language you're using. I'm wondering
if "manga" is the same.)
Robert Hutchinson
Tim Malone
>Tim Malone <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
>>manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
>>is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
>
>Look up... oh, what was it, Orquesta Del Sol?...
>a Japanese salsa band. They sound fine enough.
>
>Don't tell me I *can't* create art in a specific style just because
>I'm a "foreigner". Say "unlikely", say "improbable", but don't
>fscking say I *can't*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> E n r i q u e C o n t y
> co...@enteract.com
> http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
> Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
it can be in the style of a Manga, but it really isn't a manga. you can mimick
the style, but you aren't really in that style. now if you were to go over to
japan, and live as a japanese citizen for 10 years, and were completely emersed
in japanese life, then maybe, your art would be manga. The point is, is that
if you're an American (just guessing because I am), then you are already
creating a hybrid art form. it is a mixture of your native cluture, and this
adopted culture. it is neither one. it may have elements of a manga in it,
but it isn't a manga. you're still influenced by your background. you could
be white, but grow up japanese. it isn't a race thing, its a cultural thing.
it doesn't discount the artistic merit of the work, it just means it isn't part
of a genre. can I make African music?
Tim Malone
Avatar
Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
>
> Hey, all.
>
> Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
> who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
> about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
> cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
> Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
You mean, one that's good enough to sell -in- Japan? ;p
The art isn't the difficult part. You -do- have to do things differently
from the way that the US comic studios work... just changing the
character designs isn't half of it.
The biggest problem is going to be in the cultural aspect. Just like we
can sit and laugh about the funny things that show up in Japan's
portrayal of American culture, they can laugh at ours. HOWEVER, you're
obviously not asking "can a US story sell in Japan?" but "can an
American author write a Japanese story?"
Two aspects to that question. "Can an American put in all the little
cultural things that make up Japanese everyday life?" is the first half,
and it's going to be rough - there's a ton of small differences that
just don't show up. Not just different holidays, mind, but different
customs and different ways of viewing the same custom. Writing a
Japanese Christmas is going to be difficult, because you're going to
have to forget everything you know about Christmas in the US, for
example. This implies both extreme intimacy with the Japanese culture,
and a rare ability to suspend parts of your own experience when writing.
The nastier half is, "Can an American write Japanese characters that
think and act Japanese when viewed by Japanese?" TOUGH call. Japanese
culture just doesn't work on the same considerations as US culture...
but, at the same time, it's not TOTALLY alien. It might help if you
-know- a lot of Japanese people (and not nth-gen immigrants, mind) to
form a base of reference.
Avatar
sure as hell isn't trying, himself!
Alun Jones
> In article <86q9el$89d$1...@eve.enteract.com>,
> Enrique Conty <co...@enteract.com> wrote:
> >In article <86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> >Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> >
> >Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need a
> >certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
> >*don't* have.
>
> Excatly, there is a lot of artists here in America that draws manga or at
> least
> in the form of doujinshi. Look at more popular artist like Dejesus
> (http://www.icongrp.com/~banzai/), L0cke (http://locke.anime.net/), and
> Warren (http://www.adamwarren.com) I bet you any "Joe" who sees their
> work would think they are Japanese without knowing their names first hand.
>
> As far as Fan "artistes", there is quite a few who could
> go pro if they wanted to.. Like Saka (http://clearscape.com/~aircastle/),
This whole argument is stupid.
It revolves around what you believe to be the definition of the word
"manga". To some, it is a style of comic - to others, apparently it is
defined as "a comic created by Japanese people". I don't read manga / watch
anime simply to support Japanese artists; I do these activities because of
the style of what I'm watching.
Clearly, if you're one of those people that defines "manga" as "comic by
Japanese artists", then no, an American can't produce manga, by your own
definition. However, there's plenty of comics produced by Japanese artists
that don't appear to fall into the commonly applied term of "manga" - except
to people speaking in Japanese, to whom (I am led to understand) _all_
comics are manga, and hence - tada! - an American can produce manga.
Next, I suppose these people will be telling us that we can't watch anime
unless we get gene transplants to make ourselves Japanese. <sigh>
Can we get on to discussing what makes anime enjoyable?
Alun.
~~~~
--
Texas Imperial Software | Try WFTPD, the Windows FTP Server. Find it
1602 Harvest Moon Place | at web site http://www.wftpd.com or email
Cedar Park TX 78613 | us at al...@texis.com. VISA / MC accepted.
Fax +1 (512) 378 3246 | NT based ISPs, be sure to read details of
Phone +1 (512) 378 3246 | WFTPD Pro, NT service version - $100.
*WFTPD and WFTPD Pro now available as native Alpha versions for NT*
Danielle Scott
>
>Can we get on to discussing what makes anime enjoyable?
Nah, that topic is pretty boring nowadays ;->
SHogan6742
hardcore fan there's always something just the most sub-atomic "off" about the
art. I've yet to be fooled by an American (any country really) artist
completely pulling off the style (maybe because 99% of fan art is grotesque and
total SHIT). --Se@n
Danielle
>Does the Japanese language call all comic-like works manga, or just those
> of a similar style to "real" manga? ("Anime" does and doesn't include
> non-Japanese animation, depending on the language you're using. I'm
wondering
> if "manga" is the same.)
>
features 'manga'. It's been a bit since I've been in Japan, but I remeber
seeing X-men in with Ranma 1/2 in stores so I don't think it makes much
difference to them. The question is: are we (english-speakers) going to make
a difference since we have, essentially, borrowed the word. Everytime a
culture borrows a word they make slight changes to it. So, has have we
non-Japanese speaking fans made alterations to the definitions of anime and
manga?
Danielle
Danielle
English if a man can accurately write a female character. Or if a white
author can authentically write the perspective of a black/hispanic/ pick
your minority character. The answers are varied and I'm positive no real
answer is going to be found. It is entirely subjective. However, this
question should not be ignored--both the anime/manga one or the English
one--because the discussion offers an insight into the object discussed.
Danielle
"Fish Eye No Miko" <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net...
> Hey, all.
>
> Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
> about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
> cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a
manga?
> Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
>
Blade
>
>Hey, all.
>
>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
>said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
>who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
To say that is to imply that all manga SHOWS any particular cultural
understanding.
Something which I'd have to disagree rather strongly with.
>about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
>cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
Yes, can and have, if you count everything that mmakes most manga what American
fans think of it: artowrk, style, plots and continuity and characters that have
that inexplicable -difference- than what american comics have.
Adam Warren's done it; so have the folks at Antarctic Press and a few others.
>Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
No particular reason why not. An outsider can sometimes view things more
clearly than an insider might.
Blade
Blade
says...
>
>I think it's possible (as evidenced by Warren and DeJesus) but to the real
>hardcore fan there's always something just the most sub-atomic "off" about the
>art. I've yet to be fooled by an American (any country really) artist
Yeah, it's the fact the dialogue and sound effects are in English. ;p
>completely pulling off the style (maybe because 99% of fan art is grotesque and
>total SHIT). --Se@n
Well, that I won't disagree with. But then, 90% of everything...
Blade
Ethan Hammond
>
>
> Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
> who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
> cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
Is it being published in Japan?
I guess he could call it manga style or anime
style, but that kind of annoys me because
there really is no such thing as a manga style
or anime style. Maybe he should say he is
making a Japanese style comic that would be
better.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
>
>
> Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
> >
> > Hey, all.
> >
> > Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> > fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> > said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
> > who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
> > about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
> > cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
> > Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
>
> You mean, one that's good enough to sell -in- Japan? ;p
>
> The art isn't the difficult part. You -do- have to do things differently
> from the way that the US comic studios work... just changing the
> character designs isn't half of it.
>
> The biggest problem is going to be in the cultural aspect. Just like we
> can sit and laugh about the funny things that show up in Japan's
> portrayal of American culture, they can laugh at ours. HOWEVER, you're
> obviously not asking "can a US story sell in Japan?" but "can an
> American author write a Japanese story?"
>
> Two aspects to that question. "Can an American put in all the little
> cultural things that make up Japanese everyday life?" is the first half,
> and it's going to be rough - there's a ton of small differences that
> just don't show up. Not just different holidays, mind, but different
> customs and different ways of viewing the same custom. Writing a
> Japanese Christmas is going to be difficult, because you're going to
> have to forget everything you know about Christmas in the US, for
> example. This implies both extreme intimacy with the Japanese culture,
> and a rare ability to suspend parts of your own experience when writing.
>
> The nastier half is, "Can an American write Japanese characters that
> think and act Japanese when viewed by Japanese?" TOUGH call. Japanese
> culture just doesn't work on the same considerations as US culture...
> but, at the same time, it's not TOTALLY alien. It might help if you
> -know- a lot of Japanese people (and not nth-gen immigrants, mind) to
> form a base of reference.
>
OK, let's make it more interesting.
Suppose a foreigner from the Republic of No Where,
regardless of his Japanese cultural background
(i.e. he may have grown up in Japan, or just spent a day there),
got his comics published in, say, Shonen Jump.
The story of his comics is based on, say, Dungeons & Dragons,
so that there's hardly any Japanese cultural elements in it,
nor any other cultures, so it's basically "universal."
And let's say the comic becomes popular with the Japanese
(remember, it doesn't have to have Japanese elements in it
in order to be popular with the Japanese).
Furthermore, to those Japanese, they don't care much
that it's by a foreigner or whether to call it manga
- they simply enjoy it, like any other manga they read.
Now, what?
Laters. =)
STan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester Lost...@optonline.net
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Enrique Conty wrote:
> >In article <86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> >Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> >>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> >>said he does [...]
> >
> >And racism raises its ugly head once more.
> >
> >No, he doesn't have to be Japanese, or even Asian.
> >All you need is to put pen to paper and draw.
> >
> >Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need a
> >certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
> >*don't* have.
> >
> >--
> > E n r i q u e C o n t y
> > co...@enteract.com
> > http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
> > Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
>
> well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
> manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
> is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
> It can sound Latin, but that is all. It is a cultural thing. Can the British
> make an American sitcom, can the Americans make a British sitcom. the answer
> is no. It could still be good, but it couldn't be in the same category.
>
Does that mean Yoko Kanno can't make Jazz music then?
Laters. =)
Stan
Tim Malone
>>
>>
>
>I dunno, suppose you've lived in Japan a while, have a working knowledge of the
>culture, language, etc..? And it gets published in Japan?
>
>_________
>-Joey, who's goal in life is to murder whoever came up with the idea of writing
>furigana-less manga.
>"Hahahajanaiwo."-Coach Ishida. I dunno why, but it's funny
>There's going to be an MI panel at Famicon 2000 and I can't go>.<
I don't know, I still don't think it could be made authentic. sure, it would
look like a manga (and I'm using manga to describe a certain style that most of
us here recognize as manga), maybe even partially sound like one. Still, it
would be a hybrid, not entirely the same as something produced in japan, by
somebody born and raised there. I think there is definately a difference, and
it would be noticable if you really tried to notice. They grow up very
differently from Americans (actually, most of the world from what I've heard),
and an outsider wouldn't have that influence in their life. they would have
others would affect the work too, which would change it. To me, this is no
longer a Manga, and is instead, an american comic with some japanese elements
(assuming its done by an american).
Tim Malone
Tim Malone
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Malone wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Enrique Conty wrote:
>> >In article <86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>> >Fish Eye No Miko <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>> >>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
>> >>said he does [...]
>> >
>> >And racism raises its ugly head once more.
>> >
>> >No, he doesn't have to be Japanese, or even Asian.
>> >All you need is to put pen to paper and draw.
>> >
>> >Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need a
>> >certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
>> >*don't* have.
>> >
>> >--
>> > E n r i q u e C o n t y
>> > co...@enteract.com
>> > http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
>> > Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
>>
>> well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
>> manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
>> is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
>> It can sound Latin, but that is all. It is a cultural thing. Can the British
>> make an American sitcom, can the Americans make a British sitcom. the answer
>> is no. It could still be good, but it couldn't be in the same category.
>>
>
>
>Laters. =)
>
> Stan
>----------
> _______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
>| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
>|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
>|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
> __| | ( )
> / _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
>| ( _| | U of Rochester Lost...@optonline.net
> \ ______| _______ ____ ___
> / \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
> / \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
>/___/\/___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
I don't know much about Jazz (almost nothing in fact), but I don't think its
linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
really that similar to Jazz made by someone from the original culture. They
wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
Tim Malone
Avatar
"S.t.A.n.L.e.E" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Avatar wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, all.
> > >
> > > Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> > > fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
Then he's pulled it off. That wasn't what the first poster asked,
though.
You do have a good point - tastes vary! Heck, if somebody in Japan can
read and enjoy the X-Men, you never know what will sell. ;p
Avatar
Danielle
I'm not such a Jazz buff myself; however, what I have been told is that it
is an American 'invention' (can music really be called invention?
development might be a better word) produced by the blacks. So I guess it
does have cultural attachment. An argument using the blues might work a
little bit better...
Danielle
Jojo
<jet...@primenet.com> wrote:
There are plenty of manga
> that have
> _nothing_ to do with Japan at all.
> To me, manga are comics printed in Japan. There are no quality or
> value
> judgements attached to the term.
> Just some thoughts.
I agree with you here. This is pretty much a redundant topic. What's
really being asked here is, "Can Americans draw comic books?" The
answer, of course, is yes. As for "technique" and "annie-may style,"
that varies in manga as well. King Terry, for example, has a very
"grassroots" style of drawing--it looks nothing like the manga out
there. Yet it IS manga.
Therefore, any comic book is a manga. Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon's
"Preacher" is a manga. "Spider-Man" is a manga. "Strangers in Paradise"
is a manga, and etc.
Jojo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Tim Malone
again, I really don't know anything about Jazz, so I can only speculate. I can
only use an example that I know something about and that is trip hop.
Specifically the Bristol sound. While many outsiders have tried to emulate
this sound that comes from Bristol england, nobody really can. It seems to
spring from common experiences people living there have. Its the atmosphere
that creates the inspiration for the music, or any art for that matter. Now,
if Jazz is an American invention, than really, it is cultureless. American is
simply a big mix of every other culture, so anyone really can participate and
still be considered a part of it. Unless its from a specific group with
America who all share common upbringing and such. This is getting rather
technical in the definition and frankly I don't like to label, but to say that
somebody can essentially become part of culture without growing up in it is
absurd. Some might even call it insulting to their culture. I don't think
that an American can really claim that he knows what it is to Japanese.
Therefore, in my book, he can't really make art completely within this cultural
style, because he isn't a part of it. he can try to emulate, but it doesn't
have the same background as the authentic stuff.
Tim Malone
Danielle
(well, more than that) living in the same place. That just means that living
in a particular place would give you a different sense of culture. I live in
Alaska and I'm sorry, but if you aren't from here there are some things that
you aren't going to get. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot
accuretly depict Alaska or present an Alaskan perspective (who ever thought
up Northern Exposure, BTW I really want to kill...) It's just more
difficult. Anyway, this is a side rant and has not much to do with the
question. I personally don't think that there is an answer to the
fundemental questions. Cultures a blending into one another fastwer than
most people realize IMO.
Danielle
"Tim Malone" <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote in message
news:949030487...@news.uswest.net...
Tim Malone
>I don't know if American's are 'a-cultural' simoly because there are several
>(well, more than that) living in the same place. That just means that living
>in a particular place would give you a different sense of culture. I live in
>Alaska and I'm sorry, but if you aren't from here there are some things that
>you aren't going to get. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot
>accuretly depict Alaska or present an Alaskan perspective (who ever thought
>up Northern Exposure, BTW I really want to kill...) It's just more
>difficult. Anyway, this is a side rant and has not much to do with the
>question. I personally don't think that there is an answer to the
>fundemental questions. Cultures a blending into one another fastwer than
>most people realize IMO.
>Danielle
I don't think Americans are without culture, but just that they don't have any
specific culture anymore, because its become so obscured and mixed.
Tim Malone
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <86qjnn$1k...@drn.newsguy.com>, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>>about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
>>cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
>
>Yes, can and have, if you count everything that mmakes most manga what American
>fans think of it: artowrk, style, plots and continuity and characters that have
>that inexplicable -difference- than what american comics have.
Then that begs the question, is manga determined by what american fans think
of it? Is it manga, or is it what we think of manga to be? Maybe from our
cultural perspective we just can't pick up on the differences that are
there. Like in other cases of borrowing elements of pop culture from other
countries, it's the eye of whichever culture originated it that can often
pick out the original.
What I'm saying is what if there's more than what you have listed up there?
That's why I think it's safer to apply a strict definition of manga, akin to
the US definition of anime, like "comics produced in Japan for the
Japanese". For the likes of Adam Warren and Fred Perry, I reserve the term
"anime/manga inspired".
>Adam Warren's done it; so have the folks at Antarctic Press and a few others.
>
>>Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
>
>No particular reason why not. An outsider can sometimes view things more
>clearly than an insider might.
They have to be privy to a certain amount of information, though- a _lot_ of
information, actually.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
----------
In article
<Pine.BSO.4.10.100012...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu>,
"S.t.A.n.L.e.E" <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>OK, let's make it more interesting.
>
>Suppose a foreigner from the Republic of No Where,
>regardless of his Japanese cultural background
>(i.e. he may have grown up in Japan, or just spent a day there),
>got his comics published in, say, Shonen Jump.
>The story of his comics is based on, say, Dungeons & Dragons,
>so that there's hardly any Japanese cultural elements in it,
>nor any other cultures, so it's basically "universal."
>And let's say the comic becomes popular with the Japanese
>(remember, it doesn't have to have Japanese elements in it
>in order to be popular with the Japanese).
>Furthermore, to those Japanese, they don't care much
>that it's by a foreigner or whether to call it manga
>- they simply enjoy it, like any other manga they read.
>
>Now, what?
Quite interesting, because there's a real case somewhat like this. I
believe there are (or were) at least one or two Korean manga authors in
Japan being published in a couple of the manga anthologies published by big
names in the industry like Kodansha. I wonder if they're considered manga
artists or not.
Oh, and in response to Stan, I'd say it is manga, since I hold to a pretty
hard definition of manga as being comics published mainly for the Japanese
market.
Arnold Kim
Danielle
Or the culture of Oakland is the same as Seattle? I'm not sure... Maybe
we're arguing apples and oranges here...
Danielle D.news:949031854....@news.uswest.net...
Fish Eye No Miko
Wow, I'm getting a LOT of replies... A few too many... O_O
So let me just say: I've been thinking it over, and... Well, I think I'm
just gonna be nice to the guy so I can drop the issue altogether. I still
think an American making a "manga" is a bit weird, but...
Tim Malone
sorry, I was unclear, I meant any specific culture as a country. I agree that
the culture of california and seattle are vastly different.
Tim Malone
Ethan Hammond
> Powerpuff girls could be considered anime ;->
>
> or at least a tribute .. :O
More like a Sailor Moon parody.
Tim Malone
I never really saw it as being particularly inspired by anime. more like a
parody of all action cartoons out there. Although, that mech espisode was
hilarious. I loved the way they kept rolling into buildings and the entire
city was on fire by the end. :)
Tim Malone
Tim Malone
>Tim Malone wrote:
>
>> I don't know much about Jazz (almost nothing in fact), but I don't think its
>> linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
>> really that similar to Jazz made by someone from the original culture. They
>> wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
>> pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
>> Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
>
>
>Step 1. Buy the soundtrack for Yoko Kanno's Cowboy Bebop.
>
>Step 2. Listen to it.
>
>Step 3. Insert foot in mouth.
>
>Step 4. Repeat from step 2.
ok, I still know nothing about Jazz, so this album would be my only exposure to
Jazz, and therefore this entire exercise you suggest would be pointless. The
entire argument I was making was based on Jazz having a strong and solid
culural background which if it is from america, then it already has so many
influences that really it could come from anywhere and still sound right. So a
Jazz example is out the window because it was created in a melting pot of
culture.
Tim Malone
Tim Malone
> Ummm... Manga was heavily influenced by american comic books... And is
>currently influenced by many other styles (from French... re:Mobeus to
>American... re:Kirby) from all over the world... So if there is a form that
>is more melting pot than Jazz, it would be Manga (capitalization because we
>are making a distinction from manga... which is a different beast).
>
I know, and that made it manga. The groundwork for Manga is already there
with those early influences. Manga is all done (at the moment) from a Japanese
stand point and in a Japanese frame of mind. When early manga artists, who
were influenced by american comics started doing their thing, they weren't
doing american comics, they were doing manga. It might have been influenced
by american comics, but it wasn't the same thing. its a very subtle
difference, and could very well be entirely in my head, but I see it and that is what my
opinion is based on. :)
> BTW Jazz did not come from the kind of "melting pot" you think it did.
>All of it's influences through its long evolution were strictly American.
>Blues, ragtime, big band, etc. did not come from another country. When it
>was invented, you could only be a St. Louis black man to be able to get the
>music. But then the music and the culture got exported and the feel and the
>context went with it for many people. And you had little kids halfway
>accross the world growing up with it, learning about it, understanding it.
>And then you got people being able to do it even though they weren't St.
>Louis black men.
>
> Same thing happening with Manga... Only we are at decade 1 of the spread
>of Manga. Sure there was another decade of influence before that, but you
>can't count it because general access wasn't there like it is now... Heck,
>decade 1 has hardly begun.
>
exactly, it will change to and gather other aspects form other cultures.
but as it stands, it is a Japanese thing. As it stands, only the japanes can
make true manga. Once it is distorted enough and changed enough, then there won't
be a true "manga" form. right now, from my POV, an american can't make a true
manga, but they can help change it. this is of course assuming the changes
get accepted in Japan.
> Culture isn't proprietary. It doesn't belong to one place or people.
>When you listen to another country's music, you are becoming a part of its
>culture. You might not like it or understand it, but people from where it
>was created might not like it or understand it either. You are right that a
>creative endeavour arises out of a gestalt, but each creator of an artistic
>piece is working from an entirely different gestalt. >
I'd have to disagree with part of this. you aren't becoming part of the
culture, but instead part of the culture is becoming part of you. it is
influencing you. you only become part of the culture when you give back to
it. at which point you begin to influence it. this part takes lots of time to
complete.
> Why are american artists not always able to "get it"? Well, first of
>all, most Manga producers come from an industry... That is, they are
>trained in particular schools, they go on to assistanship positions where
>they basically spend an internship. They have access to a certain amount of
>technology that has been bought for them by the company they work for. They
>learn about their craft in a methodical manner much like a physician or
>engineer would.
>
>People seem to think that the name they see on the Manga is the only
>person who worked on the thing. That's not true. There are many others who
>worked on the project. Check out the book "How to Draw MANGA" (Graphic-sha
>publishing).
>In the beginning pages, they have a humorous look at the
>process of Manga creation. You can get a feel for the kind of teamwork it
>takes to get a Manga produced. BTW the translation of that book (originally
>a Japanese publication) is part of an effort by the Japanese manga industry
>to spread Manga style to artists in other countries. >
> In America, on the other hand, you have no schools teaching how to draw
>in Manga style. In fact, you rarely have any school teaching any comic book
>style. Generally, you have no assistants except an inker and a
>letterer(sometimes not even that). You have no company internship period
>where you get some of your wierd notions of how things should be done
>stripped away or honed down to produce a more digestable product for the
>masses.
>
> You also don't have the letraset screentones, nikko or tachikawa pens,
>or other sorts of technology the Japanese Manga artists enjoy every day (in
>wide availability or at prices that won't rip off your arm or leg). I doubt
>Yoko Kanno could have made a very good Jazz piece if she didn't have access
>to the brass instruments.
>
> But this all doesn't equate to a cultural deficiency. If an American had
>the training and the experience, they could pump out Manga as well as their
>nipponjin (or nihonjin) counterpart. Culture is, and always has been, that
>of the partaker. If you like French cuisine, you are a part of the French
>cuisine culture. If you study up on French cuisine, and learn a lot about
>how it's made, why it's made the way it's made, etc., you are more a part
>of French cuisine culture than many a frenchmen (but you would have to
>study a lot because the French do love their food ^^;).
>
not really, in order to become part of a culture, you need to have more than
a passing fancy. with your french food example, an american is still
influenced by all that he already knows and that would go into his food. unless he was
trying to exactly emulate the Frech way. when this happens in art, it
ceases (IMHO) to be art. A scanner does not make it, it simply copies it. its no
different for a human.
> Many of the best French cuisine chefs aren't French. Many of the
>greatest opera singers aren't Italians (or, if you got a sturdy stomach...
>German). Cross national virtuosity is common in many cultural things that
>are seen as a part of one nationality's identity.
>
these have all been around for a long time and have been obscured by many
things, including invasions and such which greatly change a culture. Japan
hasn't been occupied/invaded, since the dawn of Manga at least, so it hasn't
had any huge cultural influences forced upon it. eventually cultural influences
from america and other countries will filter back in and manga will change
and become "borderless". at which point anyone will be able to participate in
it.
> They might not be able to tell the story of a Japanese schoolgirl in
>Yokohama in the fall of 1975 (unless they did their research... REALLY
>WELL),
>but they can draw Manga IMO ^^;
They can draw it, but they can't make it as a whole. and that is my point.
it might look like manga, but is it really? it will be missing the story
aspect, then all you have is an artbook. I think eventually it will be possible, but
at this point, manga is a japanese art form. until the rest of the world
embraces and extends it (like Microsoft does :), and it makes it's way back to Japan.
ok, this thread is killing my study habits. ;)
Tim Malone
>-M.(can cook a mean omelette)
M Arnold
>He argues that he doens't have to be [Japanese]
Only if he's talking to you in the Japanese language when he says he's
writing 'manga.'
> Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
I don't think "manga" is necessarily a cultural 'style' (of course
nihonjinron-based Japanologists might try to argue with me on that).
Tell him in English that he's trying to write a comic book about Japan.
Or in Japanese tell him that he's writing "manga."
By the way, "American's" is possessive. "That American's Car"; "This
American's Shoes." Plural--meaning, "more than one American"--is
"Americans," without the apostrophe.
Mike A
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
M Arnold
> >Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga.
>> I asked him (somewhat fecitiously) if he was Japanese.
> And racism raises its ugly head once more.
I think racism is on the other side here; the one that's trying to
create a "unique" cultural artifact out of a foreign word and then
"dress up" as that culture by imitating [only the most obvious and
superficial] elements of style.
I don't have any problem with using the words "anime" and "manga" in
English to refer to cartoons and comics from Japan, but when people
begin to inflate and stereotype what those words mean, and then imitate
them... I think it's a bit less innocent. You don't have to turn
Japanese--and that's what is being attempted--in order to write comics
that are influenced or inspired by someone else's comics. Lucas was
inspired by Kurosawa... does that make Star Wars an "eiga" instead of a
"movie"? "Dersu Uzala" was made in Russia, so was it a "movie,"
"eiga," or... damn, I don't even know the Russian word for "movie."
Tezuka was inspired by Disney... does that make him a "cartoonist"
instead of a "mangaka"? If you're overusing your loan words to the
point that they're about to explode into a big, exaggerated, Akira-like
mess, stick with what you know instead.
How about this:
"I am *different* from all of you because I am a *ningen*!!"
> No, he doesn't have to be Japanese, or even Asian.
He can be whatever he wants to draw comics.
> Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need
You need to know enough Japanese so that you can, in Japanese, tell
your friends that you write comics.
I agree with your ideas on talent, though.
Joey and his Akane Hammer
>
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Enrique Conty wrote:
>>In article <86q76g$kc8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>>>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>>>said he does [...]
>>
>>
>>
>>Mind you, to do a *good* manga, like to do a good anything, you need a
>>certain amount of talent and skill. Which most of these fan "artistes"
>>*don't* have.
>>
>>--
>> E n r i q u e C o n t y
>> co...@enteract.com
>> http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
>> Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
>
>well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be
>a
>manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
>is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
>It can sound Latin, but that is all. It is a cultural thing. Can the
>British
>make an American sitcom, can the Americans make a British sitcom. the answer
>is no. It could still be good, but it couldn't be in the same category.
>
Joey and his Akane Hammer
>
>I think it's possible (as evidenced by Warren and DeJesus) but to the real
>hardcore fan there's always something just the most sub-atomic "off" about
>the
>art. I've yet to be fooled by an American (any country really) artist
>and
>total SHIT). --Se@n
>
>
>
Take into account the manga style itself. It can't always be called beautiful,
nor is there any way to generalize it into something beyond big eyes-small
mouths(and in some cases..)
Matt Martin
Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> imparted the following wisdom unto us:
> Does the Japanese language call all comic-like works manga, or just those
> of a similar style to "real" manga? ("Anime" does and doesn't include
> non-Japanese animation, depending on the language you're using. I'm wondering
> if "manga" is the same.)
I've heard that "American-style" comics (usually full color with
outrageously endowed superheroes/heroines) is called
amekomi (obviously from "American comics"). I would suspect that all
comic arts would fall under the manga label, however, as even comic
strips are called sukomamanga.
--
Matt Martin / buf...@sdf.lonestar.org
Visit the University of Richmond Japanese Anime Club home page:
http://www.student.richmond.edu/~anime
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm using my X-RAY VISION to obtain a rare glimpse of the INNER
WORKINGS of this POTATO!!
Matt Martin
S.t.A.n.L.e.E <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> imparted the
following wisdom unto us:
> Does that mean Yoko Kanno can't make Jazz music then?
Eric Clapton once said something to the effect that he could play
blues, but he could never *really* play the blues.
David Johnston
>
> In article <86qe3r$t20c...@news.io.com>, Alun Jones <al...@texis.com> wrote:
> >
> >Can we get on to discussing what makes anime enjoyable?
>
> Nah, that topic is pretty boring nowadays ;->
>
Besides, until you decide whether Yogi and Boo-Boo are anime, it's a
difficult question to answer.
David Crowe
: After meditating for hours on Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:09:12 -0500,
: Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> imparted the following wisdom unto us:
: > Does the Japanese language call all comic-like works manga, or just those
: > of a similar style to "real" manga? ("Anime" does and doesn't include
: > non-Japanese animation, depending on the language you're using. I'm wondering
: > if "manga" is the same.)
: I've heard that "American-style" comics (usually full color with
: outrageously endowed superheroes/heroines) is called
: amekomi (obviously from "American comics"). I would suspect that all
: comic arts would fall under the manga label, however, as even comic
: strips are called sukomamanga.
There are Americans having work published in Japanese phonebooks.
Kodansha is out at the San Deigo Comic Con every year trying to recruit
more of them. Paul Pope, known here for his THB comics, is the highest
profile person to do this (and I forget what his Japanese work is called).
In addition to the Japanese translations, there is an original Japanese
Spawn manga running right now. Is that manga, if it originated in the US?
The X-Men manga is referred to as that.
Nor does doing manga require a knowledge of Japanese life. Kenichi Sonoda
can write a story about life and crime in America (Gunsmith Cats) despite
having only visited here a few times. There are plenty of manga that have
_nothing_ to do with Japan at all.
To me, manga are comics printed in Japan. There are no quality or value
judgements attached to the term.
Just some thoughts.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"I guess justice comes before pastries."
-Umi Ryuzaki
ZippoNiner
>>about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
>>cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
>
>Yes, can and have, if you count everything that mmakes most manga what American
>fans think of it: artowrk, style, plots and continuity and characters that have
>that inexplicable -difference- than what american comics have.
What difference would that be?
As always, there's plenty of American stuff that's good, and there's
plenty of Japanese stuff that's not. Have you read "The Authority"?
How about "Planetary", or "Top Ten", or "League of Extraordinary
Gentlemen"? Or the various Martha Washington series?
The quality of an entertainment work has much MUCH more to do with the
creator themself than whether the creator's style is influenced by
Japanese or American drawing and storytelling styles.
Commodore Otto
Danielle Scott
or at least a tribute .. :O
Danielle
--
------
Danielle Scott
pir...@pirotas.com My boredom has outshined the sun
http://www.pirotas.com "Plume" - Smashing Pumpkins
Scott Schimmel
>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
>who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
>cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
Of course he can. Just as a Japanese mangaka can make a manga that's
set in America (Gunsmith Cats, anyone?). Or France (Rose of
Versailles). Or some fictitious planet. No fan on this newsgroup
would ever suggest that any of these titles is not manga. Yet none of
them is set in Japan, and the "cultural understanding" of which you
speak is to a large extent absent.
Clearly, this being the case, it should also be possible for a work
set in Japan, written by a foreigner, to be considered manga --
whether or not there is any "cultural understanding" (whatever THAT
means).
Unfortunately, many of the participants of this newsgroup engage in a
peculiar form of nihonjinron, and it seems to be rearing its ugly head
again.
Scott Schimmel Ex ignorantia ad sapientium;
Ex luce ad tenebras.
"You really aren't normal, are you?" - Miki Koishikawa
Josh F. Lesnick, Raul, Taba-kun, etc...
>
> Wow, I'm getting a LOT of replies... A few too many... O_O
> So let me just say: I've been thinking it over, and... Well, I
think I'm
> just gonna be nice to the guy so I can drop the issue altogether. I
still
> think an American making a "manga" is a bit weird, but...
I, for one, and pretty happy with all the replies this thread has
gotten. ^__^ People really seem to be more accepting of this than they
used to be.
Or maybe they were ALWAYS this accepting, but I was too much of a
sourhead to notice. ^^;
Les
...now, if only the anime convention Artist Alleys could get more
activity. ^_^;;
--
I am not Josh Lesnick
I am not an artist.
http://studio-zoe.com is not my website.
Danielle Scott
Wonder Twin Powers activate!, Danielle <dela...@uswest.net> wrote:
>ehh.. So that culture of California is the same as the culture in Georgia?
>Or the culture of Oakland is the same as Seattle? I'm not sure... Maybe
>we're arguing apples and oranges here...
California should be it's own country, esp the difference between Northern
and Souther California -_-.
Greene
Fish Eye No Miko wrote:
> Hey, all.
>
> Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
> fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
> said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
> who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
> about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
> cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
> Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
My answer...you can, BUT I also have to add that nobody in America has done
anything to this point that I consider "real manga". There are many that
try...Adam Warren, Ben Dunn and a few others head up "Manga Zine"...an all
American comic anthology that is heavily influenced by Japanese anime and
manga. The only problem is that while they have the big eyes and school girls
in there...these titles don't conform to the fundamental story telling
"standards" that make even the most obscure Japanese manga artist belong in any
Japanese anthology. In other words, it's like 25% manga...75% American coloring
and storyboarding influence (which to me is what makes it not manga). I am
penning my own amatuer comic as well...and I really don't know how to classify
it as 90% of my influence is from Japanese artists and I am drawing it in black
and white to boot. Maybe when I finish (4 more months of work...sigh), I'll put
some pages online and let you judge if this is manga or not...and whether you
will actually pay money for something like this or not:)
Greene
Danielle Scott
Ethan Hammond <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Danielle Scott wrote:
>
>> Powerpuff girls could be considered anime ;->
>>
>> or at least a tribute .. :O
>
Well they are not exactly like magical girls -_-
It would be amusing if they did a episode paroding magical girls with
transforming sequence and all. hahaha :)
Shuvo
<mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Greene wrote:
> >There are four steps to solve this little argument:
> >
> >Step 1. Buy the soundtrack for Yoko Kanno's Cowboy Bebop.
> >
> >Step 2. Listen to it.
> >
> >Step 3. Insert foot in mouth.
> >
> >Step 4. Repeat from step 2.
>
> ok, I still know nothing about Jazz, so this album would be my only
exposure to
> Jazz, and therefore this entire exercise you suggest would be pointless. The
> entire argument I was making was based on Jazz having a strong and solid
> culural background which if it is from america, then it already has so many
> influences that really it could come from anywhere and still sound right.
So a
> Jazz example is out the window because it was created in a melting pot of
> culture.
Ummm... Manga was heavily influenced by american comic books... And is
currently influenced by many other styles (from French... re:Mobeus to
American... re:Kirby) from all over the world... So if there is a form that
is more melting pot than Jazz, it would be Manga (capitalization because we
are making a distinction from manga... which is a different beast).
BTW Jazz did not come from the kind of "melting pot" you think it did.
All of it's influences through its long evolution were strictly American.
Blues, ragtime, big band, etc. did not come from another country. When it
was invented, you could only be a St. Louis black man to be able to get the
music. But then the music and the culture got exported and the feel and the
context went with it for many people. And you had little kids halfway
accross the world growing up with it, learning about it, understanding it.
And then you got people being able to do it even though they weren't St.
Louis black men.
Same thing happening with Manga... Only we are at decade 1 of the spread
of Manga. Sure there was another decade of influence before that, but you
can't count it because general access wasn't there like it is now... Heck,
decade 1 has hardly begun.
Culture isn't proprietary. It doesn't belong to one place or people.
When you listen to another country's music, you are becoming a part of its
culture. You might not like it or understand it, but people from where it
was created might not like it or understand it either. You are right that a
creative endeavour arises out of a gestalt, but each creator of an artistic
piece is working from an entirely different gestalt.
Why are american artists not always able to "get it"? Well, first of
Many of the best French cuisine chefs aren't French. Many of the
greatest opera singers aren't Italians (or, if you got a sturdy stomach...
German). Cross national virtuosity is common in many cultural things that
are seen as a part of one nationality's identity.
They might not be able to tell the story of a Japanese schoolgirl in
Yokohama in the fall of 1975 (unless they did their research... REALLY
WELL), but they can draw Manga IMO ^^;
-M.(can cook a mean omelette)
Scott Schimmel
>My answer...you can, BUT I also have to add that nobody in America has done
>anything to this point that I consider "real manga". There are many that
>belong in any Japanese anthology.
Now, this is an interesting argument.
Exactly which "standards" would those be, pray tell?
PsychoKick
definitely, but it took many years before Asians could do it well
enough to be indistinguishable from pieces made by Westerners.
Can Americans make manga? Yes, definitely, but it will take
some time before they can do it well enough to be indistinguishable
from manga authored by Japanese.
-PsychoKick
SgtCuvie
For which Ryoichi Ikegami was the artist.
SgtCuvie
SgtCuvie
>in Manga style. In fact, you rarely have any school teaching any comic book
>style.
In fact, the only one I know of even devoted to this is the Joe Kubert School.
SgtCuvie
Aripa
not add "you have to be Japanese to pursue your passion" to that crap list.
It'll be a matter of time before someone has to coin a name for the hybrids
created by non-Japanese manga-lovers. Whatever they create won't be the
manga we know, but it'll be interesting.
Aripa
--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
KAEL on Anime
http://kael-on-anime.tripod.com/home.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> >"Spider-Man" is a manga.
>
> For which Ryoichi Ikegami was the artist.
>
But if he originally published it in Marvel comics in US,
would it still be manga or American comic?
After all, his comic could work for either
Japanese or American audience; both could appreciate it.
Laters. =)
STan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester Lost...@optonline.net
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> After meditating for hours on Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:57:23 -0500,
> S.t.A.n.L.e.E <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> imparted the
> following wisdom unto us:
>
> > Does that mean Yoko Kanno can't make Jazz music then?
>
> Eric Clapton once said something to the effect that he could play
> blues, but he could never *really* play the blues.
>
So then, is that a "no"
- that Yoko Kanno could never _really_ make/play Jazz?
Anybody else agree?
If everybody agrees, shall we make it official?
Next time Ms. Kanno attends a con in North America,
shall we tell her that her Jazz is not real
and that, being Japanees, she can't really make Jazz music?
Any volunteers?
Keep in mind that, even though some Japanese have influences
on Jazz, any Jazz fan would tell you that
there really is no "Japanese" elements in Jazz,
So how about for Yoko Kanno, being Japanese all her life
and hardly any experience being American, much less black American,
and whose real exposure to Jazz is only from what she knows?
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> >
> >Does that mean Yoko Kanno can't make Jazz music then?
> >
>
> I don't know much about Jazz (almost nothing in fact), but I don't think its
> linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
Any Jazz fan would tell you that Jazz has its own "culture,"
with its "kernel" being midwest-south black American,
but not limited to it.
> really that similar to Jazz made by someone from the original culture. They
> wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
> pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
> Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
Knowing above and that Ms. Kanno being Japanese through and through,
would you have bet or just guessed that she cannot play Jazz then?
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
>
> again, I really don't know anything about Jazz, so I can only speculate. I can
> only use an example that I know something about and that is trip hop.
> Specifically the Bristol sound. While many outsiders have tried to emulate
> this sound that comes from Bristol england, nobody really can. It seems to
> spring from common experiences people living there have. Its the atmosphere
> that creates the inspiration for the music, or any art for that matter. Now,
> if Jazz is an American invention, than really, it is cultureless. American is
Any Jazz fan would tell you that Jazz is definitely _not_ "cultureless."
But since, as you said you don't know Jazz much, you're excused. ^_^
> simply a big mix of every other culture, so anyone really can participate and
> still be considered a part of it. Unless its from a specific group with
Nope. Jazz is not that "easy."
Jazz fans could spot real Jazz from "fake" Jazz.
> America who all share common upbringing and such. This is getting rather
> technical in the definition and frankly I don't like to label, but to say that
> somebody can essentially become part of culture without growing up in it is
> absurd. Some might even call it insulting to their culture. I don't think
> that an American can really claim that he knows what it is to Japanese.
> Therefore, in my book, he can't really make art completely within this cultural
> style, because he isn't a part of it. he can try to emulate, but it doesn't
> have the same background as the authentic stuff.
Yoko Kanno definitely does _not_ have the "typical" Jazz background.
And she doesn't really know what it is to be American,
much less black American - so she's definitely not "part of it."
Was she able to "pull it off" and make "real" Jazz?
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Greene wrote:
> >Tim Malone wrote:
> >
> >> I don't know much about Jazz (almost nothing in fact), but I don't think its
> >> linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
> >> really that similar to Jazz made by someone from the original culture. They
> >> wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
> >> pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
> >> Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
> >
> >There are four steps to solve this little argument:
> >
> >Step 1. Buy the soundtrack for Yoko Kanno's Cowboy Bebop.
> >
> >Step 2. Listen to it.
> >
> >Step 3. Insert foot in mouth.
> >
> >Step 4. Repeat from step 2.
>
> ok, I still know nothing about Jazz, so this album would be my only exposure to
> Jazz, and therefore this entire exercise you suggest would be pointless. The
> entire argument I was making was based on Jazz having a strong and solid
> culural background which if it is from america, then it already has so many
> influences that really it could come from anywhere and still sound right. So a
>
Actually, it can _not_.
Even though Jazz is listened and done all over the world,
it's not that "easy" such that everything still "sounds right."
Let me give you a clue that's relevant to this topic.
Think of "Jazz" as "Manga." ^_^
Manga creators are influenced by many things outside Japan,
yet it can't just come from anywhere and still "look" right.
So, was a foreigner like Yoko Kanno able to make "real" Jazz?
Laters. =)
Stan
Danielle
about oranges. ^_^ Anyway, I have another question. Is it a _bad_ thing that
an American (or whatever) wants to create a comic using a manga style? I get
the feeling from most of these posts tht a person who decides to create a
comic/manga using Japanese style is necissarily bad/sell-out/ or fake. What
if they just decided to incorperate a really freakin' cool style into their
own. I have a hard time seeing a problem with this.
Danielle
"Tim Malone" <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote in message
news:949034147...@news.uswest.net...
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Danielle wrote:
> >ehh.. So that culture of California is the same as the culture in
Georgia?
> >Or the culture of Oakland is the same as Seattle? I'm not sure... Maybe
> >we're arguing apples and oranges here...
> >"Tim Malone" <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote in message
> >news:949031854....@news.uswest.net...
> >> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Danielle wrote:
> >> >I don't know if American's are 'a-cultural' simoly because there are
> >several
> >> >(well, more than that) living in the same place. That just means that
> >living
> >> >in a particular place would give you a different sense of culture. I
live
> >in
> >> >Alaska and I'm sorry, but if you aren't from here there are some
things
> >that
> >> >you aren't going to get. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot
> >> >accuretly depict Alaska or present an Alaskan perspective (who ever
> >thought
> >> >up Northern Exposure, BTW I really want to kill...) It's just more
> >> >difficult. Anyway, this is a side rant and has not much to do with the
> >> >question. I personally don't think that there is an answer to the
> >> >fundemental questions. Cultures a blending into one another fastwer
than
> >> >most people realize IMO.
> >> >Danielle
> >>
> >> I don't think Americans are without culture, but just that they don't
have
> >any
> >> specific culture anymore, because its become so obscured and mixed.
> >>
> >> Tim Malone
>
> sorry, I was unclear, I meant any specific culture as a country. I agree
that
> the culture of california and seattle are vastly different.
>
> Tim Malone
Animeg3282
>It'll be a matter of time before someone has to coin a name for the hybrids
>created by non-Japanese manga-lovers. Whatever they create won't be the
>manga we know, but it'll be interesting.
>
Hmm..amerimanga? :D
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both my main
home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
Antaeus Feldspar
> ----------
> In article
> <Pine.BSO.4.10.100012...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu>,
> "S.t.A.n.L.e.E" <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>
> >OK, let's make it more interesting.
> >
> >Suppose a foreigner from the Republic of No Where,
> >regardless of his Japanese cultural background
> >(i.e. he may have grown up in Japan, or just spent a day there),
> >got his comics published in, say, Shonen Jump.
> >The story of his comics is based on, say, Dungeons & Dragons,
> >so that there's hardly any Japanese cultural elements in it,
> >nor any other cultures, so it's basically "universal."
> >And let's say the comic becomes popular with the Japanese
> >(remember, it doesn't have to have Japanese elements in it
> >in order to be popular with the Japanese).
> >Furthermore, to those Japanese, they don't care much
> >that it's by a foreigner or whether to call it manga
> >- they simply enjoy it, like any other manga they read.
> >
> >Now, what?
>
> Quite interesting, because there's a real case somewhat like this. I
> believe there are (or were) at least one or two Korean manga authors in
> Japan being published in a couple of the manga anthologies published by big
> names in the industry like Kodansha. I wonder if they're considered manga
> artists or not.
>
> Oh, and in response to Stan, I'd say it is manga, since I hold to a pretty
> hard definition of manga as being comics published mainly for the Japanese
> market.
>
> Arnold Kim
Yeah. I'm personally wondering: even if we were to agree that
"manga" is simply the Japanese word for "comic book", why is this
non-Japanese artist using the Japanese word for "comic book" instead of
"comic book"? It's like mentioning that you're going to the
_boulangerie_ when everyone else knows it as the bakery: there seems to
be no real cause for it, except for swank.
In fact, I think this is exactly the problem. I don't think
that Americans are incapable of creating "manga". However, I think that
*those Americans* who insist on calling their work "manga" rather than
"comic books" are probably the ones who *are* incapable of creating what
they would like to think of as "manga".
There's a conflation of terms, you see. The same artist will
argue that a) since "manga" is just Japanese for "comic books", no one
can dare say that they as Americans can't draw "manga", but b) comic
books that are labelled "manga" are somehow better than comic books
called "comic books", so the fact that they're calling their work
"manga" means it's better.
-jc
--
* -jc IS *NOW* feld...@cryogen.com
* Home page: http://members.tripod.com/~afeldspar/index.html
* The home of >>Failed Pilots Playhouse<<
* "Better you hold me close than understand..." Thomas Dolby
john lowe
>
> > So... CAN an American make a manga?
> fibers@*nospam*pacbell.net wrote:
> My answer...you can, BUT I also have to add that nobody in America has done
> anything to this point that I consider "real manga". There are many that
> try...Adam Warren, Ben Dunn and a few others head up "Manga Zine"...an all
> American comic anthology that is heavily influenced by Japanese anime and
> manga.
there's a lot more to american manga than adam warren and ben dunn. my
friends did am (american manga) works comics, which published athena and
pervert club. and what about usagi yojimbo?
> The only problem is that while they have the big eyes and school girls
> in there...these titles don't conform to the fundamental story telling
> "standards" that make even the most obscure Japanese manga artist belong
in any
> Japanese anthology.
so you've seen all the various phonebook manga? you've seen the gag
comics? the ones that have real people's faces on cartoon bodies?
> In other words, it's like 25% manga...75% American coloring
> and storyboarding influence (which to me is what makes it not manga).
i'm not a big fan of antarctic press stuff, but there is more than that
for american manga. what about lea hernandez? stan sakai? i would say they
compare very favorably to much of the translated manga i've read.
either way, they guy can call it whatever he wants. what really matters is
whether it's good or not.
john <isn't there a rec.arts.manga?>
--
john lowe hip...@mail.utexas.edu young lion i.s.a.
is your club a secret weapon?
read the alt.fan.hello-kitty faq at:
http://www.amnin.com/kittyfaq99
Tim Malone
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Malone wrote:
>
>> >
>> >Does that mean Yoko Kanno can't make Jazz music then?
>> >
>>
>> linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
>
>with its "kernel" being midwest-south black American,
>but not limited to it.
>
>> wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
>> pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
>> Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
>
>would you have bet or just guessed that she cannot play Jazz then?
>
>Laters. =)
>
> STan
> _______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
>| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
>|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
>|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
> __| | ( )
> / _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
>| ( _| | U of Rochester Lost...@optonline.net
> \ ______| _______ ____ ___
> / \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
> / \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
>/___/\/___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
is the first I've really thought of this subject but I find it to be very
interesting. I'm really not trying to offend anyone, I just think that
something is majorly influenced by a culture, and was in fact born of this one,
fairly isolated culture, can't really be duplicated without being changed
first. I don't really wish to make any wild guesses about Jazz without knowing
anything about it. :) I'll ask the question though, does her jazz have the
same feel, and vibe, and possibly the same motivation behind it as the really
early stuff? again, I wouldn't know, but I'd be interested to hear from some
actual jazz fans.
Tim Malone
Tim Malone
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Tim Malone wrote:
>
>> >Tim Malone wrote:
>> >
>> >> linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
>> >> wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
>> >> pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
>> >> Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
>> >
>> >
>> >Step 1. Buy the soundtrack for Yoko Kanno's Cowboy Bebop.
>> >
>> >Step 2. Listen to it.
>> >
>> >Step 3. Insert foot in mouth.
>> >
>> >Step 4. Repeat from step 2.
>>
>> ok, I still know nothing about Jazz, so this album would be my only exposure to
>> Jazz, and therefore this entire exercise you suggest would be pointless. The
>> entire argument I was making was based on Jazz having a strong and solid
>> culural background which if it is from america, then it already has so many
>> influences that really it could come from anywhere and still sound right. So a
>>
>
>Actually, it can _not_.
>Even though Jazz is listened and done all over the world,
>it's not that "easy" such that everything still "sounds right."
>
>Let me give you a clue that's relevant to this topic.
>Think of "Jazz" as "Manga." ^_^
>Manga creators are influenced by many things outside Japan,
>yet it can't just come from anywhere and still "look" right.
>
>So, was a foreigner like Yoko Kanno able to make "real" Jazz?
>
>Laters. =)
>
> Stan
> _______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
>| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
>|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
>|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
> __| | ( )
> / _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
>| ( _| | U of Rochester Lost...@optonline.net
> \ ______| _______ ____ ___
> / \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
> / \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
>/___/\/___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
american could make a comic that looked just like a manga, but the story could
be pulled right out of a Steven King novel, that to me, wouldn't be Manga. I
would say that story and character development would have to go with it. that
is the part that I think can't be easily duplicated, without being faked by an
outsider. I don't know what in Jazz would compare to that aspect, so I can't
complete the analogy. :)
Tim Malone
Tim Malone
>yep, the apples and oranges debate. I'm talking about apples you're talkinbg
>about oranges. ^_^ Anyway, I have another question. Is it a _bad_ thing that
>an American (or whatever) wants to create a comic using a manga style? I get
>the feeling from most of these posts tht a person who decides to create a
>comic/manga using Japanese style is necissarily bad/sell-out/ or fake. What
>if they just decided to incorperate a really freakin' cool style into their
>own. I have a hard time seeing a problem with this.
>Danielle
I think its great! I love how mangas look, I just don't think they'll get the
feel of the story and characters right. superficiously, it could look "Manga",
but the story wouldn't really fit in with the rest. Have of a Manga for me is
the story and characters. I would love to see more stuff done in the Manga
style as long as it wasn't just as a gimick by some coporate entity.
Tim Malone
Shuvo
<mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
> > Ummm... Manga was heavily influenced by american comic books... And is
> >currently influenced by many other styles (from French... re:Mobeus to
> >American... re:Kirby) from all over the world... So if there is a form that
> >is more melting pot than Jazz, it would be Manga (capitalization because we
> >are making a distinction from manga... which is a different beast).
> >
> I know, and that made it manga. The groundwork for Manga is already there
> with those early influences. Manga is all done (at the moment) from a
Japanese
> stand point and in a Japanese frame of mind. When early manga artists, who
> were influenced by american comics started doing their thing, they weren't
> doing american comics, they were doing manga. It might have been influenced
Ummm... both Mobeus and Kirby (iirc) are still alive. Ashen Victor was
done just a couple of years ago. The influences are still there. It's an
ongoing process.
> by american comics, but it wasn't the same thing. its a very subtle
> difference, and could very well be entirely in my head, but I see it and
that is what my
> opinion is based on. :)
There are subtle differences in everything. There are subtle differences
between all mangas. Masakazu Katsura might not have the same knowledge of
motorbikes as Kusuke Fujishima. Does this make him unqualified to draw a
motorcycle? Kenichi Sonoda doesn't have access to the guns he is so wild
about. Does this make him a gun nut wannabee? Since he didn't grow up in
Chicago, is he suddenly disqualified to have it as a setting for his story?
Even when there are many Americans who have depicted fantasy Chicagos that
are wilder than his versions?
There will be subtle differences in everything, but that doesn't
disqualify it from being catagorized as a certain visual style, which is
what people are talking about when they say Manga style. No matter how you
try to finagle a "you're just not talking about what I'm talking about"
stalemate, you have to come back to this.
> > Same thing happening with Manga... Only we are at decade 1 of the spread
> >of Manga. Sure there was another decade of influence before that, but you
> >can't count it because general access wasn't there like it is now... Heck,
> >decade 1 has hardly begun.
> >
> exactly, it will change to and gather other aspects form other cultures.
> but as it stands, it is a Japanese thing. As it stands, only the japanes can
> make true manga. Once it is distorted enough and changed enough, then
there won't
> be a true "manga" form. right now, from my POV, an american can't make a true
> manga, but they can help change it. this is of course assuming the changes
> get accepted in Japan.
If you don't think it's not already "distorted" and diverse enough, you
just haven't seen enough manga. What is this feel you are talking about?
Can something like Five Star Stories not be considered manga because it has
almost no Japanese setting for culture? Would an American artist who does a
story about Americans (say Chicago-ans like the ones in Gun Smith Cats) in
Manga style be doing a Manga, while an American writing a story about a
Japanese kindergartener not be making a Manga?
No finagling this time. Come out and say specifically what strict
catagorization defines a Manga. If you aren't talking about the same thing
I am, tell me your position on *MY* definition of Manga.
What is my definition?
a.) Visual shorthand for the face that uses larger, more expressive eyes
and a cartoony mouth for quicker expressabilty of behavioral state
(emotions, attitudes, etc.).
b.) Dynamic framing method that centers on character and perception instead
of setting or scene. This includes differences in action distortion and
speed lines.
c.) Visual and symbolic language associated with manga (puffs of vapor to
designate exhaustion, sweatdrops, etc.)
If it has all these, then it's a Manga (Manga style comic if you must)
in my opinion and belongs in the same class as say Battle Angel Alita
(Gunm), or Sailor Moon. These things create a distinctive subclassification
that is labelled as Manga style.
This doesn't mean that I see all the stuff produced by Americans as
Manga. I would only place Lea Hernandez's works in that catagory. Ben Dunn
and Fred Perry use item "a" extensively, and "c" occasionally, but they
often ignore "b"
Adam Warren uses all of the items above, but he creates a distinctive
melding of the above with American conventions. It's too much of a hybrid
for me to place totally in the Manga catagory. From what I've seen of Locke
(the printed version sucked), he seems to understand and stick to Manga
conventions as well, he just doesn't have the assistants to back him up.
> > Culture isn't proprietary. It doesn't belong to one place or people.
> >When you listen to another country's music, you are becoming a part of its
> >culture. You might not like it or understand it, but people from where it
> >was created might not like it or understand it either. You are right that a
> >creative endeavour arises out of a gestalt, but each creator of an artistic
> >piece is working from an entirely different gestalt. >
>
> I'd have to disagree with part of this. you aren't becoming part of the
> culture, but instead part of the culture is becoming part of you. it is
> influencing you. you only become part of the culture when you give back to
> it. at which point you begin to influence it. this part takes lots of
time to
> complete.
Ummm... Again, you have finagled a specific meaning out of a much more
vague and general term. If we look at the word "culture" and all of its
meaning, I am very much right in what I've said. You have narrowed it down
to an artistic process. The meaning is a lot broader than that. And in that
meaning, simply being at the consuming end of something makes you a part of
the culture.
Anyway, the point is moot. American audience is influencing Japanese
manga artists. Go see who bank rolled Ghost in the Shell, you can bet some
of that info fired a few neurons in Masamune Shirow's head. Anime
influences The Matrix which is seen in Japan and in turn influences manga.
The fact that there is a market for translated manga in America changes the
manga landscape even more. You get new artist doing things like Chibi Pop.
You get new anime production that is almost entirely because of the way it
got a following in America like Bubble Gum Crisis: 2040 and Burn Up W. This
goes and influences manga in turn ("hey, they are using computers in pretty
neat ways in the anime, could we use it to do manga as well?"). Heck, the
uncensoring of those hentai mangas for American audiences probably had an
effect for the Japanese artists as well (since I hear that they were the
ones who had to do the uncensoring).
We, as an audience, *are* influencing the culture of manga.
> > Why are american artists not always able to "get it"? Well, first of
> >all, most Manga producers come from an industry... That is, they are
> >trained in particular schools, they go on to assistanship positions where
> >they basically spend an internship. They have access to a certain amount of
> >technology that has been bought for them by the company they work for. They
> >learn about their craft in a methodical manner much like a physician or
> >engineer would.
> >
> >People seem to think that the name they see on the Manga is the only
> >person who worked on the thing. That's not true. There are many others who
> >worked on the project. Check out the book "How to Draw MANGA" (Graphic-sha
> >publishing).
> >In the beginning pages, they have a humorous look at the
> >process of Manga creation. You can get a feel for the kind of teamwork it
> >takes to get a Manga produced. BTW the translation of that book (originally
> >a Japanese publication) is part of an effort by the Japanese manga industry
> >to spread Manga style to artists in other countries. >
> > In America, on the other hand, you have no schools teaching how to draw
> >in Manga style. In fact, you rarely have any school teaching any comic book
> >style. Generally, you have no assistants except an inker and a
> >letterer(sometimes not even that). You have no company internship period
> >where you get some of your wierd notions of how things should be done
> >stripped away or honed down to produce a more digestable product for the
> >masses.
> >
> > You also don't have the letraset screentones, nikko or tachikawa pens,
> >or other sorts of technology the Japanese Manga artists enjoy every day (in
> >wide availability or at prices that won't rip off your arm or leg). I doubt
> >Yoko Kanno could have made a very good Jazz piece if she didn't have access
> >to the brass instruments.
> >
> > But this all doesn't equate to a cultural deficiency. If an American had
> >the training and the experience, they could pump out Manga as well as their
> >nipponjin (or nihonjin) counterpart. Culture is, and always has been, that
> >of the partaker. If you like French cuisine, you are a part of the French
> >cuisine culture. If you study up on French cuisine, and learn a lot about
> >how it's made, why it's made the way it's made, etc., you are more a part
> >of French cuisine culture than many a frenchmen (but you would have to
> >study a lot because the French do love their food ^^;).
> >
> not really, in order to become part of a culture, you need to have more than
> a passing fancy. with your french food example, an american is still
> influenced by all that he already knows and that would go into his food.
unless he was
> trying to exactly emulate the Frech way. when this happens in art, it
> ceases (IMHO) to be art. A scanner does not make it, it simply copies
it. its no
> different for a human.
>
> > Many of the best French cuisine chefs aren't French. Many of the
> >greatest opera singers aren't Italians (or, if you got a sturdy stomach...
> >German). Cross national virtuosity is common in many cultural things that
> >are seen as a part of one nationality's identity.
> >
> these have all been around for a long time and have been obscured by many
> things, including invasions and such which greatly change a culture. Japan
> hasn't been occupied/invaded, since the dawn of Manga at least, so it hasn't
> had any huge cultural influences forced upon it. eventually cultural
influences
> from america and other countries will filter back in and manga will change
> and become "borderless". at which point anyone will be able to participate in
> it.
>
> > They might not be able to tell the story of a Japanese schoolgirl in
> >Yokohama in the fall of 1975 (unless they did their research... REALLY
> >WELL),
> >but they can draw Manga IMO ^^;
>
> They can draw it, but they can't make it as a whole. and that is my point.
> it might look like manga, but is it really? it will be missing the story
> aspect, then all you have is an artbook. I think eventually it will be
possible, but
> at this point, manga is a japanese art form. until the rest of the world
> embraces and extends it (like Microsoft does :), and it makes it's way
back to Japan.
>
> ok, this thread is killing my study habits. ;)
>
> Tim Malone
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Joey and his Akane Hammer wrote:
>
> >I dunno, suppose you've lived in Japan a while, have a working knowledge of the
> >culture, language, etc..? And it gets published in Japan?
>
> I don't know, I still don't think it could be made authentic. sure, it would
> look like a manga (and I'm using manga to describe a certain style that most of
> us here recognize as manga), maybe even partially sound like one. Still, it
> would be a hybrid, not entirely the same as something produced in japan, by
> somebody born and raised there.
This is getting too semantic. There are almost certainly Americans who know
more about Japanese culture than some *Japanese* people. As for living there,
does age balance firsthand experience? (IOW, couldn't a work by a 60-year-old
American who's extensively studied Japanese culture throughout his life be more
"authentic" than something scribbled by a Japanese 19-year-old?) It all just
leads to a headache. ^^;;
Robert Hutchinson
Jojo
al...@colorado.edu (Shuvo) wrote:
> In article <949044873...@news.uswest.net>, Tim Malone
> <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
> > a.) Visual shorthand for the face that uses larger, more
> expressive eyes
> and a cartoony mouth for quicker expressabilty of behavioral state
> (emotions, attitudes, etc.).
Legend of Kamui, then, is not a manga. Lone Wolf and Cub, then, is not
a manga. Hell, Blade of the Immortal then, would not be a manga,
according to this rule.
> b.) Dynamic framing method that centers on character and
> perception instead
> of setting or scene. This includes differences in action
> distortion and
> speed lines.
Rumiko Takahashi generally uses a fairly conservative framing method,
even though character and perception is a priority for her.
> c.) Visual and symbolic language associated with manga (puffs of
> vapor to
> designate exhaustion, sweatdrops, etc.)
Legend of Kamui? Sanctuary? Crying freeman?
Jojo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Tim Brown
S.t.A.n.L.e.E <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.BSO.4.10.100012...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu>...
> So then, is that a "no"
> - that Yoko Kanno could never _really_ make/play Jazz?
I think so. If you hear a few jazz songs and come up with a song that
"sounds" like those, you could say you're making music in that "style."
This same discussion goes on in rec.music.hip-hop about White Hip Hop
artists (too much, actually).
Actually it's a grey area, UNLESS there's a universally accepted rule that
says that if you're not part of the culture, place, race, etc that you're
not "really" doing it.
What would you call her "jazz" pieces on the Cowboy Bebop albums? Would you
call it "Music That Sounds Like Jazz But Is Not Because She Is From Japan?"
8<
> So how about for Yoko Kanno, being Japanese all her life
> and hardly any experience being American, much less black American,
> and whose real exposure to Jazz is only from what she knows?
>
> Laters. =)
I guess it's ambiguous (:
But, if she learned how to play saxaphone, well, and did a cover of John
Coltrane's entire "Love Supreme" album, note for note, would she be playing
jazz? She probably wouldn't KNOW all the little details about composing a
jazz piece, but it's still jazz. And anyhow, "New York Rush," "Cosmos" and
"Farewell Blues" sound like the real thing to me. To come up with those
great songs, she would HAVE to know more about jazz than she says in
interviews.
"Oh, I've just heard a few artists."
"Is that what you call that music?"
"Who is 'Miles Davis?' "
"What is a 'trumpet?' " ^_^
She's lying! She probably has the entire Blue Note collection (:
So it depends on who you listen to. I see "manga" in the dictionary as
"comics." But when there are all these other definitions and words that the
Japanese or Americans use for American or Japanese comics, it gets
ambiguous since there's no universal definition (just a "majority"
definition). Just look at all the different opinions in this thread.
Tim Brown
SHogan6742 <shoga...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20000127181639...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
> I think it's possible (as evidenced by Warren and DeJesus) but to the
real
> hardcore fan there's always something just the most sub-atomic "off"
about the
> art. I've yet to be fooled by an American (any country really) artist
> completely pulling off the style (maybe because 99% of fan art is
grotesque and
> total SHIT). --Se@n
Hey, there's a LOT of excellent fan art.........in Japan. See, the only
Americans who do fan art are the ones that draw crappy Pokemon, Dragonball
and Sailor Moon pictures and then send them to Animerica. Take a look in
Newtype or Animage and the worst picture in the fan art section is better
than the best American fan art (that I've seen anyway). Their 12 year olds
are better than our 20 year-olds.....
Tim Malone
>In article <949044873...@news.uswest.net>, Tim Malone
><mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
that doesn't make it a Manga. Make no mistake, I'm saying nothing about
setting, anyone can set their story anywhere. it might not be quite as
accurate of a portrayal, but then again, anytime you portray the past, you are
at least somewhat biased and therefor not completely faithfull.
> There will be subtle differences in everything, but that doesn't
>disqualify it from being catagorized as a certain visual style, which is
>what people are talking about when they say Manga style. No matter how you
>try to finagle a "you're just not talking about what I'm talking about"
>stalemate, you have to come back to this.
>
I would have to disagree, it isn't just a visual style. There are words, and
that is part of the work. If you just want to look at a Manga as an art book
and have the words be of no consequence, then ok, an American could make a
Manga, but not in my definition. I don't think they could accuratley duplicate
the writing style and the little pushes and pulls that causes a Manga writer to
write what they write.
> > Same thing happening with Manga... Only we are at decade 1 of the spread
>> >of Manga. Sure there was another decade of influence before that, but you
>> >can't count it because general access wasn't there like it is now... Heck,
>> >decade 1 has hardly begun.
>> > >>exactly, it will change to and gather other aspects form other cultures.
>> but as it stands, it is a Japanese thing. As it stands, only the japanes can
>> make true manga. Once it is distorted enough and changed enough, then
>there won't
>> be a true "manga" form. right now, from my POV, an american can't make a true
>> manga, but they can help change it. this is of course assuming the changes >> get accepted in Japan.
>> If you don't think it's not already "distorted" and diverse enough, you
>just haven't seen enough manga. What is this feel you are talking about?
>Can something like Five Star Stories not be considered manga because it has
>almost no Japanese setting for culture? Would an American artist who does a
>story about Americans (say Chicago-ans like the ones in Gun Smith Cats) in
>Manga style be doing a Manga, while an American writing a story about a
>Japanese kindergartener not be making a Manga?
>
It has nothing to do with setting. it could take place on Mars and still be a
Manga. I'm talking writing and visual styles here. Visual is easier to copy,
wrting is the part that I think can't be duplicated authentically.
> No finagling this time. Come out and say specifically what strict
>catagorization defines a Manga. If you aren't talking about the same thing
>I am, tell me your position on *MY* definition of Manga.
>
> What is my definition?
>
>a.) Visual shorthand for the face that uses larger, more expressive eyes
>and a cartoony mouth for quicker expressabilty of behavioral state
>(emotions, attitudes, etc.).
>
>b.) Dynamic framing method that centers on character and perception instead
>of setting or scene. This includes differences in action distortion and
>speed lines.
>
>c.) Visual and symbolic language associated with manga (puffs of vapor to
>designate exhaustion, sweatdrops, etc.)
>
> If it has all these, then it's a Manga (Manga style comic if you must)
>in my opinion and belongs in the same class as say Battle Angel Alita
>(Gunm), or Sailor Moon. These things create a distinctive subclassification
>that is labelled as Manga style.
>
In my opinion, this only makes it visually a manga. My definition would
include these and the writing style. Any sexual taboos, freedoms, things they
don't consider taboo. pressures from growing up they face (doesn't Japan have
the highest grade school suicide rate in the world or something?). All this
will influence the way its written, the way the characters develop, etc...
I don't think it could be duplicated unless it was experienced.
The Matrix might be influencing visual style, but I sure hope it doesn't
influence the stories and character development. that would be horrible. :)
Eventually all the influences will make their rounds and start to change Manga,
then it will become more international and more parties can get involved.
There will still be the old manga that the new stuff doesn't quite seem like.
Economically, we might be making them richer in Japan, but the only influence
our dollars give them is what they should do more. If hentai sells really good
in america, they will probably ship more over here, I don't think it will
change the way Hentai is made.
> We, as an audience, *are* influencing the culture of manga.
>
<snipped old comments>
Tim Malone
(sorry if my news read mangles the comment spacing, it does that sometimes. :)
Tim Malone
lived the japanese life, the 60 year old just watched it. I think an american
who went and lived in japan as a japanese person when they were very young or
something like that, could make a Manga, because he experienced that life.
Tim Malone
Robert Hutchinson
> if he studied it, he'd still have an outsiders view though. The 19 year old
> lived the japanese life, the 60 year old just watched it. I think an american
> who went and lived in japan as a japanese person when they were very young or
> something like that, could make a Manga, because he experienced that life.
And I think putting sole emphasis on experience is faulty.
Robert Hutchinson
Robert Hutchinson
> Hey, there's a LOT of excellent fan art.........in Japan. See, the only
> Americans who do fan art are the ones that draw crappy Pokemon, Dragonball
> and Sailor Moon pictures and then send them to Animerica.
... now, is that sarcasm, or extremely bad reasoning?
Robert Hutchinson
Peter Van Huffel
> In article <949006151...@news.uswest.net>,
> Tim Malone <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> >well, he can make a comic, in the style of a manga, but it wouldn't really be a
> >manga would it. Manga is a japanese comic, so if he is not japanese, that it
> >is not japanese. Just like if you aren't Latin, you can't make Latin music.
>
> Look up... oh, what was it, Orquesta Del Sol?...
> a Japanese salsa band. They sound fine enough.
>
> Don't tell me I *can't* create art in a specific style just because
> I'm a "foreigner". Say "unlikely", say "improbable", but don't
> fscking say I *can't*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Gosh. Not again. "Drawing in the style of a manga"... THERE IS NO SUCH
THING. There is NO definition of "manga styles". Whatever style feature
anyone of you can give me, I can find series that feature the opposite.
There are at least 16,000 series currently on sale and many more are sold
out. Does anyone here really have the guts to think that we can summarize
this gigantic mass in one style?
In its broadest generalization, I say that anything drawn on earth could
be called manga, be it Dilbert or Akira. And for the Japanese themselves,
this is true, although they use the word comics more than you think.
But I guess that we, as gaijin, need a somewhat more strict definition.
And the only CORRECT DEFINITION, is the following:
"Manga is any comic art by any artist having its FIRST publication in
Japan."
Believe me, this is the only reasonable and objective definition. Not
based on race, style or anything else that is nonsense.
This definition has of course some surprising consequences of which I
give two examples below.
By this definition, if a certain Dilbert strip is published in Japan
before it was published anywhere else, I would call it manga. Under this
definition anything published in so-called mangastyles by foreigners is
no manga at all, except if they get it published in Japan firstly. If
Katsuhiro Ootomo publishes his art in an European magazine before it is
being published in Japan, it is no manga. IMO the above examples are not
realistic cases anyway, so this doesn't detract from the definition.
So, Conty, draw whatever you like and get it published in Japan before
any other country and you will truly have created a manga. But I think
you'll find it very hard to get your art published in Japan (except
perhaps as a doujinshi).
--
Peter
---
PRISMS: The Ultimate Manga Guide
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/4996
---
Remove REMOVE.THIS to email me.
HTML signature mails/posts will be ignored.
Tim Malone
he might have a better understanding of Japanese culture. But I would have to
say that putting sole emphasis on understanding is also faulty. :) This is a
very subjective subject and no concencus will ever be reached. all we can do
is explain our own opinions on it.
Tim Malone
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <389129...@worldnet.att.net>, Ethan Hammond
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Danielle Scott wrote:
>
>> Powerpuff girls could be considered anime ;->
>>
>> or at least a tribute .. :O
>
>More like a Sailor Moon parody.
Believe it or not, he actually came up with the idea before Sailor Moon even
came out in Japan. A lot of the elements he's added since then might be
construed as a parody/homage to Sailor Moon, though. Considering the
occasional use of Japanese kana in the show, and the pretty big paralells to
Sailor Moon, that's not much of a stretch.
Arnold Kim
Tim Malone
definition we can make. I think everyone has to decide for themselves if a
work is a Manga or not. I wouldn't just accept something printed in japan as
Manga, but I wouldn't expect anyone to use the title "American comic originally
puplished in Japan then imported over to America" either. :) truthfully, I
don't like to label, but it does provide a way to separate things into nice
categories. So for me, in order for the term manga to be usefull, it needs a
stronger meaning. For me, it is a cultural thing, for others, its a visual
thing. To each there own.
Tim Malone
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <389115ea...@netnews.voicenet.com>, schi...@voicenet.com
(Scott Schimmel) wrote:
>"Fish Eye No Miko" <fisheye3...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Someone on another ng said he was writing a manga. I asked him (somewhat
>>fecitiously) if he was Japanese. He argues that he doens't have to be. I
>>said he does, manga requires a certain cultural understanding that someone
>>who grew up in the US just doesn't have. came back with this big arguemtn
>>about "what does that say about art if you can't create art in other
>>cultural styles other than your own... So... CAN an American make a manga?
>>Even more, a manga that's set in Japana about 'the future of Japan"?
>
>Of course he can. Just as a Japanese mangaka can make a manga that's
>set in America (Gunsmith Cats, anyone?). Or France (Rose of
>Versailles). Or some fictitious planet. No fan on this newsgroup
>would ever suggest that any of these titles is not manga. Yet none of
>them is set in Japan, and the "cultural understanding" of which you
>speak is to a large extent absent.
I think it's less concering setting and location and more about what
perspective it comes from. Part of what may make manga what it is might be
the cultural background and perspective of the author- stories told from a
Japanese perspective. It might not, but I don't think right now exactly
what kind of experiences were drawn on in order to make a manga. And if it
were found to be true, I think it would take quite a bit of "Japanese"
experience on the part of the foreigner in order for it to work.
All this confusion over what is and isn't manga, what constitutes a manga's
"style", etc., is exactly why I hold to a pretty black and white definition
of the word like I do with anime. Manga: comics produced from a Japanese
perspective mainly for the Japanese market.
Arnold Kim
Tim Brown
Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<3891FADB...@hotmail.com>...
It's sarcasm. I know ther is good American fan art.
Tim Brown
Tim Brown <nospam-...@erols.com> wrote in article
<01bf69e7$d81e75e0$f2aeaccf@mbfamily>...
> > ... now, is that sarcasm, or extremely bad reasoning?
>
> It's sarcasm. I know ther is good American fan art.
.....and I spelled "there" wrong.......
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <1364c658...@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com>, Jojo
<macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <alamm-ya02408000...@news.colorado.edu>,
>al...@colorado.edu (Shuvo) wrote:
>> In article <949044873...@news.uswest.net>, Tim Malone
>> <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
>> > a.) Visual shorthand for the face that uses larger, more
>> expressive eyes
>> and a cartoony mouth for quicker expressabilty of behavioral state
>> (emotions, attitudes, etc.).
>
>Legend of Kamui, then, is not a manga. Lone Wolf and Cub, then, is not
>a manga. Hell, Blade of the Immortal then, would not be a manga,
>according to this rule.
>
>> b.) Dynamic framing method that centers on character and
>> perception instead
>> of setting or scene. This includes differences in action
>> distortion and
>> speed lines.
>
>Rumiko Takahashi generally uses a fairly conservative framing method,
>even though character and perception is a priority for her.
>
>> c.) Visual and symbolic language associated with manga (puffs of
>> vapor to
>> designate exhaustion, sweatdrops, etc.)
>
>Legend of Kamui? Sanctuary? Crying freeman?
All of the above fudging, confusion, and subjectiveness mentioned above is
why I find it best to stick to one hard definition- comic books produced
mainly for the Japanese market. "Style" is something that's so broad and
subjective, I don't think it should really be used to "define" anything
here.
Arnold Kim
Shuvo
<macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
> In article <alamm-ya02408000...@news.colorado.edu>,
> al...@colorado.edu (Shuvo) wrote:
> > In article <949044873...@news.uswest.net>, Tim Malone
> > <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
> > > a.) Visual shorthand for the face that uses larger, more
> > expressive eyes
> > and a cartoony mouth for quicker expressabilty of behavioral state
> > (emotions, attitudes, etc.).
>
> Legend of Kamui, then, is not a manga. Lone Wolf and Cub, then, is not
> a manga. Hell, Blade of the Immortal then, would not be a manga,
> according to this rule.
Uh... Take a look at the proportions again... They all have big eyes
and small mouths. Compared to other manga no, but compare them to actual
pictures and...
In any event, I made it clear earlier that stuff that don't follow
these conventions are not Manga. They are manga, but they are not Manga.
Get the distinction?
If you want the definition of manga: Anything that uses graphic medium
(usually cartoonish representations of people) to tell a story and is
published in Japan. Although it applies anywhere in the world, this
definition works in the strictest sense only if you are actually inside
Japan's international borders when you use it. Otherwise it starts getting
frayed around the edges. With this definition, American comics are manga
if they are published in Japan. Also, Japanese manga are "comic books"
when brought over and published in America. They are what are called
"Japanese comic books" or "imports". Even if they have been translated
where they would be "translated Japanese comics" if you absolutely had to
make a distinction. Face it people, that's what the word really means.
But we are talking about Manga as far as I can tell... Either that, or
some people have been mislead.
When the guy was talking about drawing Manga, he was using a shorthand
for "Manga style" or "style first pioneered in Japan for use in a
particular popular subset of their mangas and later imported into America
under the Manga designation to differentiate it from current popular
visual styles".
> > b.) Dynamic framing method that centers on character and
> > perception instead
> > of setting or scene. This includes differences in action
> > distortion and
> > speed lines.
>
> Rumiko Takahashi generally uses a fairly conservative framing method,
> even though character and perception is a priority for her.
I'm not talking about characters popping out of frames. Takahashi does
use point "b" extensively in her works.
> > c.) Visual and symbolic language associated with manga (puffs of
> > vapor to
> > designate exhaustion, sweatdrops, etc.)
>
> Legend of Kamui? Sanctuary? Crying freeman?
... Would be less Manga than say Cathedral Child. But they could be
referred to as manga where Cathedral Child (AFAIK) could not. Of course
this capitalization and stuff is only for the benifit of this thread for
anybody who could not figure that out before...
-M.(wants to publish a stick figures manga...)
Shuvo
[snip rest]
> All of the above fudging, confusion, and subjectiveness mentioned above is
> why I find it best to stick to one hard definition- comic books produced
> mainly for the Japanese market. "Style" is something that's so broad and
> subjective, I don't think it should really be used to "define" anything
> here.
You can't be using the term here (in America or UK or wherever...)
without automatically fudging things. If you want a strict term to go with
your strict definition, use Japanese comics. If you want a cute term like
the ones Japanese people make up, use "Japacomi" or "Nihocomi".
Your definition has already been twisted and just because it's strict
doesn't mean you are using the word the way it was originally intended to
be used. So for now, you will just have to deal with the confusion and
subjectiveness.
-M.(lives in a subjective world)
Shuvo
<mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
> I never said an american comic couldn't take place in Japan. It sure can, but
> that doesn't make it a Manga. Make no mistake, I'm saying nothing about
> setting, anyone can set their story anywhere. it might not be quite as
> accurate of a portrayal, but then again, anytime you portray the past, you are
> at least somewhat biased and therefor not completely faithfull.
Faithful to what? Is there some objective reality of Japanese life I
cannot be aware of? Are you willing to whittle it down to "You can only
write about your own life, and then only truthfully" like I've been trying
to get you to? If not, then where exactly is that line in the sand?
> > There will be subtle differences in everything, but that doesn't
> >disqualify it from being catagorized as a certain visual style, which is
> >what people are talking about when they say Manga style. No matter how you
> >try to finagle a "you're just not talking about what I'm talking about"
> >stalemate, you have to come back to this.
> >
> I would have to disagree, it isn't just a visual style. There are words, and
> that is part of the work. If you just want to look at a Manga as an art book
> and have the words be of no consequence, then ok, an American could make a
> Manga, but not in my definition. I don't think they could accuratley
duplicate
> the writing style and the little pushes and pulls that causes a Manga
writer to
> write what they write.
Now you get to something I STRONGLY disagree with. I have never seen a
single manga creator that writes in the same style as another manga
creator. NEVER. They are all as different from each other as they are from
American comics. I will go so far as to say that here you CANNOT make a
catagory.
If there are catagories, they are sci-fi, sports, romance, etc. There
is no Manga sci-fi, Manga romance, etc.
They are better writers (and they have better editors) in general than
most American writers (mainstream to mainstream avaraged out). But they DO
NOT have some mystical "only Japanese" way of writing a story. I don't
know where you get your romantic perception of people from other cultures
from. It's just a made up distinction because we are ALL clueless about
what it means to be an American or a Japanese, etc. No matter if we can
answer the question with certainty or not. If you can answer that sort of
thing with conviction, you only have my respect for having conviction, not
for being right, because you aren't no matter what you think being
American is all about. Same thing goes for a Japanese. Face it, for all
their lifetime experience, they are just as clueless as the rest of them.
Are you understanding what I'm getting at? I could state it in more
complicated and stricter terms, but I can't seem to be able to make it
simpler to say.
Well I could try I suppose: There is no mystical reality to being
Japanese! There is a mystical reality to being a person. There are common
things that many people go through in Japan. Those things are not
invisible to an outsider who decides to immerse themselves in the overall
culture. In any event, that doesn't mean much when you are writing about
some bad ass dude who blows up planets. It's not something the next guy
over, who is writing about giant iguanas who are Salsa champions in his
manga, shares with you. We are all freakin individuals! You are seeing
things that even the freakin creator of the manga would deny the existance
of! It's useless! Useless I tell you! Aaaargh! You wierdo! Get away from
me! (<grins and giggles for the humor impaired>).
> It has nothing to do with setting. it could take place on Mars and still be a
> Manga. I'm talking writing and visual styles here. Visual is easier to copy,
> wrting is the part that I think can't be duplicated authentically.
Correction: writing is the part that can never be duplicated EVER.
Unless you were God...
> In my opinion, this only makes it visually a manga. My definition would
> include these and the writing style. Any sexual taboos, freedoms, things they
sexual taboos can be copied... But there isn't much point in that...
freedoms can definately be used by someone in America with the same
mindset.
As for writing style: You can make your sentances as short as
Hemingway's, but only Hemingway can do Hemngway style (without it being a
cheap copy).
> don't consider taboo. pressures from growing up they face (doesn't Japan have
> the highest grade school suicide rate in the world or something?). All this
> will influence the way its written, the way the characters develop, etc...
> I don't think it could be duplicated unless it was experienced.
Yah, but that don't make no manga. (please note I'm using uncapitalized form)
> The Matrix might be influencing visual style, but I sure hope it doesn't
> influence the stories and character development. that would be horrible. :)
I dunno... I've seen some really crappy manga stories.
> Eventually all the influences will make their rounds and start to change
Manga,
> then it will become more international and more parties can get involved.
> There will still be the old manga that the new stuff doesn't quite seem like.
> Economically, we might be making them richer in Japan, but the only influence
> our dollars give them is what they should do more.
Ummm... where the dollar goes also is an influence. Also, they hear
about what was liked in America (especially the companies) and try to do
it more. Sometimes they are blatantly lied to (re:Burn Up W) and make
something that doesn't do well in America with the American audience in
mind. When that happens, the idiots who made the original claims as to
what Americans like either get fired or learn to ask for better things. Or
they make the same mistakes until their company is run down to the ground.
Anyway, they have influenced the production of future anime.
> If hentai sells really good
> in america, they will probably ship more over here, I don't think it will
> change the way Hentai is made.
I would think that it might because I suspect hentai is such a small
market that the American market would be pretty significant to a hentai
artist. If so, then they might stop writing stuff like lolita schoolgirl
rape, etc. in an effort to appeal more to American audiences or at least
get around the import restrictions...
> > We, as an audience, *are* influencing the culture of manga.
-M.(doesn't like being confused, but accepts it)
Tim Malone
>In article <949089552...@news.uswest.net>, Tim Malone
><mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
>
>> I never said an american comic couldn't take place in Japan. It sure can, but
>> that doesn't make it a Manga. Make no mistake, I'm saying nothing about
>> setting, anyone can set their story anywhere. it might not be quite as
>> accurate of a portrayal, but then again, anytime you portray the past, you are
>> at least somewhat biased and therefor not completely faithfull.
>
> Faithful to what? Is there some objective reality of Japanese life I
>cannot be aware of? Are you willing to whittle it down to "You can only
>write about your own life, and then only truthfully" like I've been trying
>to get you to? If not, then where exactly is that line in the sand?
>
you can only really write what you know. you guess on the rest but you're not
being. who said anything about your own life? I don't think I even hinted
about that. I know I can't write about slavery. I don't have the experience.
I know nothing about it. I have no idea how it felt. This is an extreme
example, but its the only one I can think of off hand. I can't write from an
African perspective, any more than an American can write from a Japanes
perspective. quit twisting my words.
>> > There will be subtle differences in everything, but that doesn't
>> >disqualify it from being catagorized as a certain visual style, which is
>> >what people are talking about when they say Manga style. No matter how you
>> >try to finagle a "you're just not talking about what I'm talking about"
>> >stalemate, you have to come back to this. >> >
>> I would have to disagree, it isn't just a visual style. There are words, and
>> that is part of the work. If you just want to look at a Manga as an art book
>> and have the words be of no consequence, then ok, an American could make a
>> Manga, but not in my definition. I don't think they could accuratley
>duplicate
>> the writing style and the little pushes and pulls that causes a Manga
>writer to
>> write what they write.
>
> Now you get to something I STRONGLY disagree with. I have never seen a
>single manga creator that writes in the same style as another manga
>creator. NEVER. They are all as different from each other as they are from
>American comics. I will go so far as to say that here you CANNOT make a
>catagory.
>
I'm not talking exact same styles here, I'm talking about common style elements
that . There are cliches and little things about characterization that are
common in works. commonality is what makes a genre. just like there are
common themes in american comics. usually they employ a super power of some
sort. secretive lives. the problems associated with that. deaths in the
family that cause it. I'd love to list more, but its been a while since I've
read a comic book from america. it isn't something you can just look at and
say "hey, thats a manga because.....". its in the story, and its in the
characters, and its also partially in your head. everyone has to decide for
themselves.
> If there are catagories, they are sci-fi, sports, romance, etc. There
>is no Manga sci-fi, Manga romance, etc.
>
I know, but there are common things in manga, just like in any cultural thing.
There is something there that ties latin music together. I can't exactly put
my finger on it (just an example I pulled off the top of my head), but its
there.
> They are better writers (and they have better editors) in general than
>most American writers (mainstream to mainstream avaraged out). But they DO
>NOT have some mystical "only Japanese" way of writing a story. I don't
>know where you get your romantic perception of people from other cultures
>from. It's just a made up distinction because we are ALL clueless about
>what it means to be an American or a Japanese, etc. No matter if we can
>answer the question with certainty or not. If you can answer that sort of
>thing with conviction, you only have my respect for having conviction, not
>for being right, because you aren't no matter what you think being
>American is all about. Same thing goes for a Japanese. Face it, for all
>their lifetime experience, they are just as clueless as the rest of them.
>Are you understanding what I'm getting at? I could state it in more
>complicated and stricter terms, but I can't seem to be able to make it
>simpler to say.
>
I don't think they are necessarily better writers or worse, but they are
different. Of course there is nothing mystical about being japanese. I have
no "romantic" perception of foreign cultures, I just have a realistic one.
People from different parts of the world are DIFFERENT! it makes sense, really
it does. they grow up in a different atmosphere, dealling with different
problems and with different rules. I have no idea what it means to be Japanes,
I freely admit that. Maybe a japanese person can't put their finger on it
either, but they can write from experience and what they know and thats what
separates their writings from somebody in Russia. They have different life
experiences that color their writing with a uniqueness. You don't have to be
in touch with what makes you who you are to be able to write from your
perspective. you just do it because that is what you know.
>Well I could try I suppose: There is no mystical reality to being
>Japanese! There is a mystical reality to being a person. There are common
>things that many people go through in Japan. Those things are not
>invisible to an outsider who decides to immerse themselves in the overall
>culture. In any event, that doesn't mean much when you are writing about
>some bad ass dude who blows up planets. It's not something the next guy
>over, who is writing about giant iguanas who are Salsa champions in his
>manga, shares with you. We are all freakin individuals! You are seeing
>things that even the freakin creator of the manga would deny the existance
>of! It's useless! Useless I tell you! Aaaargh! You wierdo! Get away from
>me! (<grins and giggles for the humor impaired>).
>
I know we are individuals, but there are common experiences that everyone in a
culture has. things everybody goes through. Most black people in America have
to deal with racism at some point in their lives, that gives the a little extra
percpective on what it is to be black in america. something I could never even
claim to try to comprehend. I just know its there. it gives them a little
more insight. An outsider may see them (just like I may see a black kid
getting beat up for being black), but I can acuratley say what that felt like?
can I acurately write from his perspective about that incident? can I write a
story about a black kid growing up and make it seem authentic without
experiencing that? the answer is no, and to try would be insulting. I know
I'm reading into things a little too deeply, but I play my classes, they aren't
that intelectually stimulating this quarter. ;)
>
>> It has nothing to do with setting. it could take place on Mars and still be a
>> Manga. I'm talking writing and visual styles here. Visual is easier to copy,
>> wrting is the part that I think can't be duplicated authentically.
>
> Correction: writing is the part that can never be duplicated EVER.
>Unless you were God...
>
>
>> In my opinion, this only makes it visually a manga. My definition would
>> include these and the writing style. Any sexual taboos, freedoms, things they
>
> sexual taboos can be copied... But there isn't much point in that...
>freedoms can definately be used by someone in America with the same
>mindset.
>
> As for writing style: You can make your sentances as short as
>Hemingway's, but only Hemingway can do Hemngway style (without it being a
>cheap copy).
>
exactly! what makes a hemmingway story a hemmingway story? his perspective on
things!
The Japanes perspective is what make Manga what it is for me at least.
anything else would be a cheap copy.
>> don't consider taboo. pressures from growing up they face (doesn't Japan have
>> the highest grade school suicide rate in the world or something?). All this
>> will influence the way its written, the way the characters develop, etc...
>> I don't think it could be duplicated unless it was experienced.
>
>Yah, but that don't make no manga. (please note I'm using uncapitalized form)
>
>
>> The Matrix might be influencing visual style, but I sure hope it doesn't
>> influence the stories and character development. that would be horrible. :)
>
> I dunno... I've seen some really crappy manga stories.
>
>> Eventually all the influences will make their rounds and start to change
>Manga,
>> then it will become more international and more parties can get involved.
>> There will still be the old manga that the new stuff doesn't quite seem like.
>> Economically, we might be making them richer in Japan, but the only influence
>> our dollars give them is what they should do more.
>
> Ummm... where the dollar goes also is an influence. Also, they hear
>about what was liked in America (especially the companies) and try to do
>it more. Sometimes they are blatantly lied to (re:Burn Up W) and make
>something that doesn't do well in America with the American audience in
>mind. When that happens, the idiots who made the original claims as to
>what Americans like either get fired or learn to ask for better things. Or
>they make the same mistakes until their company is run down to the ground.
>Anyway, they have influenced the production of future anime.
>
yes they make more of it, but that doesn't change HOW they make it.
>> If hentai sells really good
>> in america, they will probably ship more over here, I don't think it will
>> change the way Hentai is made.
>
> I would think that it might because I suspect hentai is such a small
>market that the American market would be pretty significant to a hentai
>artist. If so, then they might stop writing stuff like lolita schoolgirl
>rape, etc. in an effort to appeal more to American audiences or at least
>get around the import restrictions...
>
so they would be making LESS lolita stories, still isn't chaning the way they
make it though. if they started reading erotic comics from america obsesively
that were inspired by hentai, then the hentai artists would start to be
influenced. until then, it remains basically the same. there is just less of
the stuff American's don't like making it's way to America.
>> > We, as an audience, *are* influencing the culture of manga.
>
>-M.(doesn't like being confused, but accepts it)
Tim Malone (likes to confuse people ;)
David Johnston
>
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Greene wrote:
> >Tim Malone wrote:
> >
> >> I don't know much about Jazz (almost nothing in fact), but I don't think its
> >> linked to any one culture. if it was, it surely wouldn't be the same, or even
> >> really that similar to Jazz made by someone from the original culture. They
> >> wouldn't have the same influences in their lives, or the same experiences
> >> pushing them towards certain views and creative outlets. Again, I nothing of
> >> Jazz, or Yoko Kanno, so I can't answer with any sort of certainty.
> >
> >There are four steps to solve this little argument:
> >
> >Step 1. Buy the soundtrack for Yoko Kanno's Cowboy Bebop.
> >
> >Step 2. Listen to it.
> >
> >Step 3. Insert foot in mouth.
> >
> >Step 4. Repeat from step 2.
>
> ok, I still know nothing about Jazz, so this album would be my only exposure to
> Jazz, and therefore this entire exercise you suggest would be pointless. The
> entire argument I was making was based on Jazz having a strong and solid
> culural background which if it is from america, then it already has so many
> influences that really it could come from anywhere and still sound right. So a
> culture.
That sounds pretty silly to me. Are the Japanese a melting pot of
culture because they have been so heavily influenced by the Chinese and
the Americans? What difference does it make if Jazz is a developed
fusion of European and African musical forms when both are equally alien
to Japan?
Now, I'll admit that to me manga and anime mean "comics and cartoons
imported from Japan" but the theory that North Americans are inherently
incapable of making a good rendition of the sort of things in manga
strikes me as implausible. The first Adam Warren Dirty Pair story tends
to discredit it right out of the gate. That Americans might make the
occasional piddly mistake doesn't mean much to me. After all, I've seen
American girls bowing politely in "Gunsmith Cats".
Tim Malone
make an analogy between something created in a relatively undiverse country and
something made in a very diverse country. There is a big difference there.
>Now, I'll admit that to me manga and anime mean "comics and cartoons
>imported from Japan" but the theory that North Americans are inherently
>incapable of making a good rendition of the sort of things in manga
>strikes me as implausible. The first Adam Warren Dirty Pair story tends
>to discredit it right out of the gate. That Americans might make the
>occasional piddly mistake doesn't mean much to me. After all, I've seen
>American girls bowing politely in "Gunsmith Cats".
I've commented on this so many times now, my basic argument is that they can't
recreate the experiences that a person born and raised in japan aquires in
their lifetime that color their works.
Tim Malone
SHogan6742
P.S.: Least that's what I was told two years ago.
Jojo
al...@colorado.edu (Shuvo) wrote:
> In article <1364c658...@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com>, Jojo
> <macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <alamm-ya02408000...@news.colorado.edu>,
> > al...@colorado.edu (Shuvo) wrote:
> > > <mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Shuvo wrote:
> > Legend of Kamui, then, is not a manga. Lone Wolf and Cub, then,
> is not
> > a manga. Hell, Blade of the Immortal then, would not be a manga,
> > according to this rule.
> Uh... Take a look at the proportions again... They all have big
> eyes
> and small mouths. Compared to other manga no, but compare them to
> actual
> pictures and...
Manji doesn't have big eyes and a small mouth, and other than Rin, most
of the women are drawn in the style what might consider "Western." And
what are "Actual pictures?" And have you even seen Lone Wolf and Cub?
What big eyes? The protagonist has quite slitted, small eyes, if you
ask me.
> In any event, I made it clear earlier that stuff that don't
> follow
> these conventions are not Manga. They are manga, but they are not
> Manga.
> Get the distinction?
No, I don't. It takes me a while to catch on. Please explain. So I
guess "manga" with a lower case "m" has a different meaning from
"Manga," with a capital "M?"
> If you want the definition of manga: Anything that uses graphic
> medium
> (usually cartoonish representations of people) to tell a story and
> is
> published in Japan.
Ahhh-haa...so it has to be published in Japan to be a manga.
Although it applies anywhere in the world, this
> definition works in the strictest sense only if you are actually
> inside
> Japan's international borders when you use it. Otherwise it starts
> getting
> frayed around the edges. With this definition, American comics are
> manga
> if they are published in Japan. Also, Japanese manga are "comic
> books"
> when brought over and published in America.
So...American comics are manga if they are published in Japan.
They are what are
> called
> "Japanese comic books" or "imports". Even if they have been
> translated
> where they would be "translated Japanese comics" if you absolutely
> had to
> make a distinction. Face it people, that's what the word really
> means.
But according to your explanation above, manga would seem to have two
meanings. Ahm confyused...
> But we are talking about Manga as far as I can tell... Either
> that, or
> some people have been mislead.
Ah yes...all these definitions of manga can be quite difficult to
follow.
>
> I'm not talking about characters popping out of frames.
> Takahashi does
> use point "b" extensively in her works.
Been reading Scott McCloud, I see....
> ... Would be less Manga than say Cathedral Child. But they
> could be
> referred to as manga where Cathedral Child (AFAIK) could not. Of
> course
> this capitalization and stuff is only for the benifit of this
> thread for
> anybody who could not figure that out before...
You got that right! How could anyone not figure out that all this
capitalization stuff and double meanings of "manga" so easily? Boy is
my face red.
> -M.(wants to publish a stick figures manga...)
But they have to have big, expressive eyes and small mouths...how can
you achieve that with stick figures?
Shuvo
<macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
> Manji doesn't have big eyes and a small mouth, and other than Rin, most
Ummm... yeah... and you point? Didn't I already say that it was not in
the strictest Manga style?
> of the women are drawn in the style what might consider "Western." And
> what are "Actual pictures?" And have you even seen Lone Wolf and Cub?
It's been a while, but LWaC and LoK both had bigger eyes iirc. Smaller
than other manga, but somewhere around Ruichi Ikegami size.
> What big eyes? The protagonist has quite slitted, small eyes, if you
> ask me.
Yeah. Definately not Manga style... Satisfied?
> No, I don't. It takes me a while to catch on. Please explain. So I
> guess "manga" with a lower case "m" has a different meaning from
> "Manga," with a capital "M?"
I already explained. I don't know how to make it simpler.
How about this: Americans who come up with a definition for a word that
is not true to its original meaning are hypocrits for insisting that
everyone else stick to that definition. Is that clear enough?
> Ahhh-haa...so it has to be published in Japan to be a manga.
You're catching on.
> So...American comics are manga if they are published in Japan.
Very good!
> But according to your explanation above, manga would seem to have two
> meanings. Ahm confyused...
At least you know that much...
> Ah yes...all these definitions of manga can be quite difficult to
> follow.
Especially when you throw in your own defination to the stinkin pile.
> > I'm not talking about characters popping out of frames.
> > Takahashi does
> > use point "b" extensively in her works.
>
> Been reading Scott McCloud, I see....
Scott McCloud read me... hehe had to paraphrase that famous quote...
Honestly, McCloud didn't invent it, but he wrote it. I knew it before I
read his book. I said it before his book. But that doesn't mean I'm not
willing to defer to his authority in the matter.
> > ... Would be less Manga than say Cathedral Child. But they
> > could be
> > referred to as manga where Cathedral Child (AFAIK) could not. Of
> > course
> > this capitalization and stuff is only for the benifit of this
> > thread for
> > anybody who could not figure that out before...
>
> You got that right! How could anyone not figure out that all this
> capitalization stuff and double meanings of "manga" so easily? Boy is
> my face red.
Sadly enough, I think you are being sarcastic... Oh well, can't say
much more than that.
> > -M.(wants to publish a stick figures manga...)
>
> But they have to have big, expressive eyes and small mouths...how can
> you achieve that with stick figures?
hahahahahahaha Or is that a serious question? If it is I suppose I'll
laugh for a different reason...
-M.(somebody should be smacking their head and going "Doh!")
Shuvo
<mrg...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> you can only really write what you know. you guess on the rest but you're not
> being. who said anything about your own life? I don't think I even hinted
> about that. I know I can't write about slavery. I don't have the
experience.
> I know nothing about it. I have no idea how it felt. This is an extreme
> example, but its the only one I can think of off hand. I can't write from an
> African perspective, any more than an American can write from a Japanes
> perspective. quit twisting my words.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please note that I have done my utmost to NOT twist your words. I have
hinted at what your words are being percieved as by me, and what they
would lead to if you actually spent the time to think your position
through. But I have tried to avoid putting words in your mouth.
I am asking that you think more deeply about your position. You already
have an idea that it is a very subjective position based of personal
opinion. I'm just asking you to understand why you can't take such a
personal thing like that and institutionalize it for everyone, and why you
should allow for a more liberal definition of Manga as it is used in
America.
> > Now you get to something I STRONGLY disagree with. I have never seen a
> >single manga creator that writes in the same style as another manga
> >creator. NEVER. They are all as different from each other as they are from
> >American comics. I will go so far as to say that here you CANNOT make a
> >catagory.
> >
>
> I'm not talking exact same styles here, I'm talking about common style
elements
I understood that from the very beginning. Let me explain it in another
way. If I am sensetive enough to see it. I am sensitive enough to
understand it. With enough intelligence, research, experience and common
sense, I will be sensetive enough to reproduce it in my works. It won't be
the exact same, but it never is.
Note: here we are talking about *common* style elements.
> that . There are cliches and little things about characterization that are
> common in works. commonality is what makes a genre. just like there are
> common themes in american comics. usually they employ a super power of some
> sort. secretive lives. the problems associated with that. deaths in the
> family that cause it. I'd love to list more, but its been a while since I've
> read a comic book from america. it isn't something you can just look at and
I'd suggest you start reading stuff like Maus and Strangers in Paradise.
> I know, but there are common things in manga, just like in any cultural
thing.
> There is something there that ties latin music together. I can't exactly put
> my finger on it (just an example I pulled off the top of my head), but its
> there.
So do you think an American would not be able to make latin music?
> I don't think they are necessarily better writers or worse, but they are
> different.
Of course not. I make that claim.
> Of course there is nothing mystical about being japanese. I have
> no "romantic" perception of foreign cultures, I just have a realistic one.
> People from different parts of the world are DIFFERENT! it makes sense,
really
> it does. they grow up in a different atmosphere, dealling with different
> problems and with different rules.
Ummm... My point using your sentance: People from SAME parts of the
world are DIFFERENT!
> I have no idea what it means to be Japanes,
> I freely admit that. Maybe a japanese person can't put their finger on it
> either, but they can write from experience and what they know and thats what
> separates their writings from somebody in Russia. They have different life
> experiences that color their writing with a uniqueness. You don't have to be
> in touch with what makes you who you are to be able to write from your
> perspective. you just do it because that is what you know.
BUT THIS DOES NOT A MANGA (as in the American definition of manga that
I'm designating as Manga along with other people in this thread) MAKE.
We can agree to disagree, but when it comes to making definitions there
is an arguement.
[snip part about the African American experience]
> the answer is no, and to try would be insulting.
I will not go into this because it's another topic. But let me say that
humans are capable of great sympathy, understanding and imagination. We
are all alone, but our minds are able to touch in marvelous ways if we are
not afraid to try.
> I know
> I'm reading into things a little too deeply, but I play my classes, they
aren't
> that intelectually stimulating this quarter. ;)
Read as deeply as you like.
> exactly! what makes a hemmingway story a hemmingway story? his
perspective on
> things!
Right!
> The Japanes perspective is what make Manga what it is for me at least.
> anything else would be a cheap copy.
Again... cheap copy of what? Are we talking a Japanese high school
drama? Are we talking a generalized sci-fi future? When does it become a
cheap copy and why?
Are you saying that the visual style should only be used by Japanese?
(I think you are not) That only the Japanese created stuff can be called
manga? (I think you are... with caveats of course) Do you not realize that
saying yes to the second question means that you have created another
meaning for the word that is seperate from what a Japanese person calls a
manga? Why not use "Japanese comics"? Why try to change someone else's
definition of manga when yours is just as wrong?
[snip influence source]
> yes they make more of it, but that doesn't change HOW they make it.
No, the change is in which direction it goes and what is emphasised.
(If I am to understand the more general gist of what you mean by "HOW")
> >-M.(doesn't like being confused, but accepts it)
>
> Tim Malone (likes to confuse people ;)
Just don't think that's the end all of a conversation. You weren't
confusing me BTW if that's why you think I put that in my signoff.
-M.(they are all funny looking butterflies)
Arnold Kim
----------
>In article <86svnc$nr2$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Arnold Kim" <ki...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>[snip rest]
>> All of the above fudging, confusion, and subjectiveness mentioned above is
>> why I find it best to stick to one hard definition- comic books produced
>> mainly for the Japanese market. "Style" is something that's so broad and
>> subjective, I don't think it should really be used to "define" anything
>> here.
>
> You can't be using the term here (in America or UK or wherever...)
>without automatically fudging things. If you want a strict term to go with
>your strict definition, use Japanese comics. If you want a cute term like
...which is different from "manga" how?
>the ones Japanese people make up, use "Japacomi" or "Nihocomi".
>
> Your definition has already been twisted and just because it's strict
Twisted, yes, but twisted to one that is consistent. By your measures,
"Akira" ceases to be manga. Hell, by your measures, some issues of the US
X-men are more manga than Akira.
>doesn't mean you are using the word the way it was originally intended to
Does that matter? I never said it was. You might as well argue the same
for the term "anime".
>be used. So for now, you will just have to deal with the confusion and
>subjectiveness.
We shouldn't have to if we're seeking to nail down a definition. When we
want to define something, we should use a definition that's as concise as
possible and causes the least confusion.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <alamm-28010...@norln310mac104.colorado.edu>,
al...@colorado.edu (Shuvo) wrote:
> I already explained. I don't know how to make it simpler.
>
> How about this: Americans who come up with a definition for a word that
>is not true to its original meaning are hypocrits for insisting that
>everyone else stick to that definition. Is that clear enough?
Even if the new definition is more sensible and practical and causes less
confusion as a result?
Am I being a hypocrite for believing my definition makes the most sense and
wanting other people to use it? I didn;t choose the definition arbitrarily-
I chose it because it works.
Arnold Kim