Fansubs are illegal.......
Thomas Jansen
In article <lch1-18109...@cu-dialup-1711.cit.cornell.edu> rec.arts.anime.misc writes:
>Please note that I've changed the follow-ups to r.a.a.misc. Which of
>course I should have done the first time. Sorry!
>
>Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could get was poor
>quality copies taped off TV, you could at least argue there was still a
>reason for purchasers of the fan-sub to buy a commercial release. Now
>that the pirates sub off of laser disk, that is no longer true. There are
>several titles my company is currently considering for which we would not
>release a VHS subtitle because we wouldn't make back our investment on
I have to agree to what's above here, but with one excpetion.
Fan-subs of titles that are commercially released do hurt companies.
Therefore, bootleggers (note, I do make a differential between bootleggers
and fansubbers) do hurt business. However, and this is a however,
I disagree with the below.
>it. And the reason we wouldn't make back our investment is because of the
>proliferation of fan-subbers.
>
This has been the company line for many years now. Unfortunatly,
one company decided that they could release a sub of a widely fansubbed
show. Viz will be subbing MI. If Viz feels MI can sell subs in the
"saturated" market, then the above statement isn't all that true, is it.
Note: This is not speculation of a fan saying that he'd buy a commercial
release, if there was one. This is a company saying that the fansubs
are not large enough to stop them from releasing their show. True, some
sales will be lost, but apparently Viz thinks they can still profit, and
that's what matters. Second note and summary: I'm not saying fansubs
are right, or legal, or anything else. I'm just saying that the excuse
of a fansub "saturation" doesn't hold much water anymore...
That's the problem with big company lines, once one company goes and
breaks it, it kinda spoils the rest of them...
>If you want to participate in this kind of activity, at least quit
>pretending that it is somehow justified.
>
I'll quit rationalizing the same day companies stop rationalizing
everything immoral they do. Which won't be soon, I promise you that....
>(All the usual disclaimers apply. I don't speak for anyone but myself,
>and vice versa.)
>
Ditto.
--Tom Jansen
--jan...@engr.orst.edu
C. Mitch Hagmaier
Thomas Jansen wrote:
>
> In article <lch1-18109...@cu-dialup-1711.cit.cornell.edu> rec.arts.anime.misc writes:
> >Please note that I've changed the follow-ups to r.a.a.misc. Which of
> >course I should have done the first time. Sorry!
> >
> >Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could get was
> >poor quality copies taped off TV, you could at least argue there was
> >still a reason for purchasers of the fan-sub to buy a commercial
> >longer true. There areseveral titles my company is currently
> >considering for which we would notrelease a VHS subtitle because we
Um, who was the original poster? I'm curious.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Please, please don't cull attributions like this, eh?
Jeffrey P Gaskell
lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
: Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could get was poor
: quality copies taped off TV, you could at least argue there was still a
: reason for purchasers of the fan-sub to buy a commercial release. Now
: that the pirates sub off of laser disk, that is no longer true. There are
: several titles my company is currently considering for which we would not
: release a VHS subtitle because we wouldn't make back our investment on
: it. And the reason we wouldn't make back our investment is because of the
: proliferation of fan-subbers.
Nowadays, this is quite true. The internet has become such a common tool
that it is no big deal to log onto the Anime Turnpike and go down the list
of anime fansubbers. Last time I checked the list had grown to a pretty
formidable size:
Fan Subtitlers/Fansub Distributors
Acefly Distribution Service
Alex's Fansub Trading Corner
Aquarian Productions
Arctic Animation
Anime Crisis Subtitled Projects
C-Ko's Duplication Service
Cellestial Research
Dark Ops
The Fansub Web Ring
G.M. Anime
HECTO
JACOSub Ftp site
Jet's Fansub Service
Miki's Anime Tape Service
Nexus Studio Web Page
NewType Animation Fansubbing Page
Ottawa Anime Distribution Service
PCTitler Homepage
Peas & Karrots Animation
Psycho KORps' Home Page
Reality Studios
Saiya-jin Productions
SANKYU Anime Trading
Saturn's Distribution Service
SilverWynd Productions
Studio Kakyouin
Sub Station Alpha
Techno-Girls Fansubbed Anime & Japanese Video Catalog
Tomodachi Anime
Triangle Area Anime Society (TAAS)
49er Anime - UNCCJAMS
Wave/Pyxis Homepage
Yotsuya Productions
YummySpam's Fansub Catalog
Overall the quality of the fansubs has improved dramatically over time.
Some outfits are bordering on semi-professional in that they charge extra
to cover translation costs and high end video machinery: pro quality
editing decks, and LD source material.
To say that fansubbers don't interfere with commercial companies is being
a little blind to the current situation.
Some fansub groups are busy fansubbing immediately following a program's
airing on Japanese TV. Eventually, the proliferation of fansubs will lead
to some sort of leagal action down the line as anime continues to gain
popularity.
If it seems hectic now--wait until digital copies enter the consumer
playing field--and faster modems. Pretty soon, if you know where to log
on, you could download any anime you want. Perfect copies from the
masters all archived digitally for your convenience.
Actually, the only people benefitting from fansubs besides the anime fans
involved are VCR and blank tape manufacturers, and the Postal Service.
--Jeff Gaskell
frank paharik
szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) wrote:
>Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
>: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
>:
>: : Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could get was poor
>: : quality copies taped off TV, you could at least argue there was still a
>: : reason for purchasers of the fan-sub to buy a commercial release. Now
>: : that the pirates sub off of laser disk, that is no longer true. There are
>: : several titles my company is currently considering for which we would not
>: : release a VHS subtitle because we wouldn't make back our investment on
>: : it. And the reason we wouldn't make back our investment is because of the
>: : proliferation of fan-subbers.
>:
Wrong! You undermine your own buisness. I have been an anime
collector for more than 4 years and I can tell you that the only
reason your videos do not sell is their lack of quality. Most of the
industry has the attitude of "make it and they will but it". I and a
good number of my friends collect the origonal LD's because of this.
How can you expect fans to buy your product when the video quality is
poor and the translations are loose and sloppy? While there are
exceptions to this rule, most fansubbers do a better job than the
companies releasing the anime. I will tell you right now that if
products I wanted were available I would give you my money right now.
I have 1st generation SVHS masters of shows like KOR, Record of Lodoss
Wars and Patlabour, Laserdiscs like the MI box and if your company
released these products on LD or DVD I would buy them. Until the
companies clean up their act I will keep my fansubs and import LD's.
I will also support companies like Pioneer and Animeigo with my
dollars. This attitude is very among the people I know that are into
anime. So the moral of the story is, "do a good job and people will
buy your product", Wow what a strange idea !
Brad Orahood
Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
:
: : Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could get was poor
: : quality copies taped off TV, you could at least argue there was still a
: : reason for purchasers of the fan-sub to buy a commercial release. Now
: : that the pirates sub off of laser disk, that is no longer true. There are
: : several titles my company is currently considering for which we would not
: : release a VHS subtitle because we wouldn't make back our investment on
: : it. And the reason we wouldn't make back our investment is because of the
: : proliferation of fan-subbers.
:
: that it is no big deal to log onto the Anime Turnpike and go down the list
: of anime fansubbers. Last time I checked the list had grown to a pretty
: formidable size:
Bah. Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand. Commercial
companies are using them as a scapegoat. The fact of the matter
is, there is a demand for subtitled Anime, and for the most
part, the only way fans can get it in a timely matter is
through a fansubber.
I am very tired of waiting months, if not years, between the
release of a dub and a sub. That is if the companies decide
to release a subtitle at all.
There are two facts that cannot be dismissed:
1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
Now the commercial companies have two options - fill that
demand, or let someone else do it. So far, they've let
someone else do it. If they want to cry foul at this point, don't
expect any sympathy.
: To say that fansubbers don't interfere with commercial companies is being
: a little blind to the current situation.
To say commercial companies have been responsive to the fans
is being equally as blind to the situation.
Matsuura-kun
fpah...@connectnet.com (frank paharik) wrote:
>szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) wrote:
>
>>Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
>>: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
>>:
>>: : Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could
>>: : get was poor quality copies taped off TV, you could at
>>: : several titles my company is currently considering but would
>>: : not release because we wouldn't make back our investment on
>>: : it. And the reason is because of the fan-subbers.
>>:
>
>Wrong! You undermine your own buisness. I have been an anime
>collector for more than 4 years and I can tell you that the only
>reason your videos do not sell is their lack of quality. Most of the
>industry has the attitude of "make it and they will but it".
>buy your product"
Yup... it is SO OBVIOUS that the commercial company guy above is
interested in profits. Don't you see fans just want some good anime?
=======================================================================
Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
PO Box 3054
Brown University VHS/SVHS Fansub Distribution Service Available
Providence, RI 02912 E-me for title list & ordering info
tel. (401) 863-4146
e-mail: Da...@brown.edu , Y...@brown.edu , Lawren...@brown.edu
=======================================================================
Personal Favourites Now:
Marmalade Boy * Tenku no Escaflowne * Fushigi Yuugi * Slamdunk
Matsuura-kun
szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) wrote:
>Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
>: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
>:
>: : Fan-subs undermine our business.
>
>release of a dub and a sub. That is if the companies decide
>to release a subtitle at all.
>
>There are two facts that cannot be dismissed:
> 1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
> 2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
I agree that fansubbers are not evil. I don't think fansubbers
should be connected to the anime market at all, though. They are not a
service. They are fans who buy LD's and creatively sub it with their own
time. The fact that they distribute is help others who want to see THEIR
CREATION.
The problem is that some fans treat fansubbers as a service and
abuse their good intention. They are doing fans a favour. They are not
out there to compete with the market or commercial companies. Do you
know that $1-$2 profit amounts to nothing compared to what big companies
make per tape.
>: To say that fansubbers don't interfere with commercial companies
>: is being a little blind to the current situation.
>
>To say commercial companies have been responsive to the fans
>is being equally as blind to the situation.
I agree that fansubs interfere with commercial companies... because
it takes away their market power (which hopefully will drive the
ridiculous prices down). Commercial companies are worried about PROFITS.
Profiting from the desperate fans. Commercial companies blame fansubs
for taking away their maximum profit-potential but what's the point if
all us anime fans want to do is to watch some anime... money is not our
main concern, but a tool... anime is the focus of it all. This is what
business man don't understand about us anime fans.
Another point: Fansubbers aren't the ones to be blamed. They only
subtitle creatively. Fansub distributors are the ones, I believe. BUT I
provide fansub distribution service myself and I do not intend to
interfere with commercial companies. WE DO TAKE COMMERCIAL TITLES OUT OF
OUR LISTS. All you commercial companies have to is purchase the script
or make an announcement... and we'll quit!!!!
LAST POINT: Fansubs are ALL Commercial companies' FREE
ADVERTISEMENT!!!! We save you SO MUCH by building an anime fandom and
environment. THAT ALONE should juice up your PROFITS... OK?!!!!
Truly last point: Fansubs are illegal only because of a treaty
signed between the US and Japan. BUT that is for political purposes, the
treaty. If you look at the geographic scope of customers Japanese
commercial companies cover, US is OUT OF IT... that's why it is a big
grey area we are in.
Albert Wong
In article <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net>, tsu...@comet.net wrote:
>There are two exceptions to this. I ordered some Ranma 1/2 in the
>100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
>I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
>area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some dub wasn't
to your liking.
Jello
Albert Wong (alb...@best.com) wrote:
: So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some dub wasn't
: to your liking.
i'm sorry but i have to say something here:
How can one honestly say it's theft to get fansubs of a show thats on TV?!?
The basic "stealing from the companies" thing dosen't apply anymore when
you can tape their version off of TV.
--
Jello
aka Aron Craig
Anime O-Tekku Treasurer.
gt5...@prism.gatech.edu
Enrique Conty
In article <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) writes:
>
>Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand.
Yup. People want things for free/cheap whenever they can.
The general philosophy is that it's allright to steal,
as long as you can't get caught.
> 1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
That explains drugs...
> 2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
Very little demand, looking at market figures.
But the demand is there, thus the fansubbers exist.
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Come to Anime Central, the Midwest's Best Anime Convention!
April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Rosemont, IL. (A suburb of Chicago)
Visit our website at http://www.mcs.net/~docangst/3w/ac/
Tsurugi
szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) wrote:
>Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
>: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
>Bah. Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand. Commercial
>companies are using them as a scapegoat. The fact of the matter
>is, there is a demand for subtitled Anime, and for the most
>part, the only way fans can get it in a timely matter is
>through a fansubber.
>I am very tired of waiting months, if not years, between the
>release of a dub and a sub. That is if the companies decide
>to release a subtitle at all.
>There are two facts that cannot be dismissed:
> 1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
> 2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
>Now the commercial companies have two options - fill that
>demand, or let someone else do it. So far, they've let
>someone else do it. If they want to cry foul at this point, don't
>expect any sympathy.
>: To say that fansubbers don't interfere with commercial companies is being
>: a little blind to the current situation.
>To say commercial companies have been responsive to the fans
>is being equally as blind to the situation.
Not to mention prices, even if a commercial company does release a
sub, it will charge $20-30 for it. WQhy pay that when you can get a
fansub fro 8 bucks?
All the stuff I get fansubed is stuff that hasn't come the the states
yet and I don't feel like waiting for a US company to pick it up.
There are two exceptions to this. I ordered some Ranma 1/2 in the
100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
Fansubs provide something all anime fans desire, now if the companies
would only realize that...
Tsurugi
Les Jenkins
In article <55b4sa$l...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt5...@acmex.gatech.edu (Jello)
<549d0u$u...@news.Hawaii.Edu> <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net> <55an52$l...@nntp1.best.com> wrote:
>Albert Wong (alb...@best.com) wrote:
>
>: So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some dub wasn't
>: to your liking.
>
>i'm sorry but i have to say something here:
>
>How can one honestly say it's theft to get fansubs of a show thats on TV?!?
>The basic "stealing from the companies" thing dosen't apply anymore when
>you can tape their version off of TV.
That's a poor rationalization. The point remains that Ranma 1/2, of which the
poster being responded to was talking about, isn't shown on TV in the U.S. and
a company, Viz, has expended a substantial amount of money to license it for
distribution here in the States. Viz, for all intents and purposes, owns the
rights to the Ranma 1/2 series in the United States and what they do with it,
whether it be dubbing, subbing, or syndicating it to various networks, is
entirely up to them within the confines of the agreement they've made with the
original copyright holders.
Every fansub, whether a profit is made on it or not, is money Viz won't see.
Money which they are legally entitled to under the copyright law. Right or
wrong, that's the way things are.
Steal if you must, but at least have the responsibility to own up to what it
is you're doing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Les Jenkins | Animecca: Anime Webzine (http://animecca.com/)
Dr...@cris.com | The Casual Otaku (http://www.cris.com/~Dream)
Matsuura-kun
jgas...@Hawaii.Edu (Jeffrey P Gaskell) wrote:
>lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
>
>: Fan-subs undermine our business.
>
>companies is being a little blind to the current situation.
>
>a program's airing on Japanese TV. Eventually, the proliferation
Here's an alternate future... anime becomes so popular that
companies are no longer in monopolistic competition model, but
becomes perfect competition and starts to dish out all kinds of
anime at the price true to REAL COSTS. Now everybody is happy.
No need for fansub distribution... though fansubbing can still be
a personal creative project that need not be distributed.
>If it seems hectic now--wait until digital copies enter the consumer
>playing field--and faster modems. Pretty soon, if you know where to
>log on, you could download any anime you want. Perfect copies from
>the masters all archived digitally for your convenience.
>
>only people benefitting from fansubs besides the anime fans
>involved are VCR and blank tape manufacturers, and the Postal Service.
So take it up with the electronic companies who gave us the
recording function. Hey wait a minute... most are Japanese commercial
companies as well, nee? Just a matter of income distribution. More
fans are satisfied and just that profit-seeking leaches of a commercial
company whine about the profit they should be getting from their
unfair market power. Hat's off to the creator of good anime... I'll
happily donate to them to show my appreciation... but no way some
profit maximizing leach is getting my money.
David Geeves
> >>: : Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could
> >>: : get was poor quality copies taped off TV, you could at
> >>: : least argue there was still a reason for fan-sub. There are
> >>: : several titles my company is currently considering but would
(wish I knew which company he/she was referring - news server hasn't
delivered it yet)
There are claims that Video Girl Ai is too widely spread as a fansub
to be worthwhile releasing commercially. I'd buy it in a flash as a
sub. How many people with it already as a fansub would buy it?
> >Wrong! You undermine your own buisness. I have been an anime
> >collector for more than 4 years and I can tell you that the only
> >reason your videos do not sell is their lack of quality. Most of the
True in Australia with Manga and Kiseki using low quality tapes.
Kiseki seem to dub over old tapes (as in evidence at the end of a
friend's original of Plastic Little). :P No way do I buy any tapes
in Oz. I help contribute to our national account deficit by getting
commercial titles from the US and Japan. >:) Quality is everything
to this anime fan.
> >industry has the attitude of "make it and they will but it".
> >So the moral of the story is, "do a good job and people will
> >buy your product"
Fairly true. But see above question... If you have a VG quality
copy of Video Girl Ai and AnimEigo/AD Vision/someone were to bring
it out on LD/Video subbed/dubbed, how many would buy the original?
Based on experience with both myself and other fans who attend our
anime screenings, I say the percentage isn't going to be all that
large unfortunately. I work, I buy commercial titles, though those
I have fansubbed are usually lower on the list to buy than titles
I've not seen.
> Yup... it is SO OBVIOUS that the commercial company guy above is
> interested in profits. Don't you see fans just want some good anime?
How much are they willing to pay for it? Recent fan attending our
screening wanted Madox-01. It's A$35 (US$25) for an original. Oh no,
this was far too much for him to pay, couldn't we just tape it for
him? How many different ways can you say no? :)
Based on what I've seen/read in the anime newsgroups over the years,
I've the distinct impression that many people want a lot of anime
and don't want to pay much for it. 2 hours a tape or else they're
being ripped off. Look at Japanese prices for anime and compare what
kind of value for money you get compared to Japanese buyers.
Just a few thoughts and opinions from me.
Dave.
Les Jenkins
In article <55chp6$4...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
> Again, fansubbing is not illegal. It is a creative project. Fansub
>distribution is what should be focused on.
>
> The above ratioanlization has no problem. Imagine this: my sister
>is watching Mickey Mouse on TV but we have bad reception... so I take a
>picture of the tv with the Mickey Mouse show... scan it, and then redraw
>it without snow on my computer so my sister can see it. That is no
>problem... like fansubs are a creative project. Now if I sell my
>computer redrawn Mickey Mouse to fellow schoolmates and make them pay for
>the ink and paper I use... is that illegal? That's what the topic should
>be... fansub distribution, not fansubbing.
Yes. It's illegal. And Disney will be all over your butt faster than you'd
think possible. There's almost no case too small for Disney not to prosecute
if they feel their copyrights have been infringed. They've even sued a daycare
for using paintings of Disney characters on it's walls, and they won if memory
serves me correctly.
Les Jenkins
> Here's an alternate future... anime becomes so popular that
>companies are no longer in monopolistic competition model, but
>becomes perfect competition and starts to dish out all kinds of
>anime at the price true to REAL COSTS. Now everybody is happy.
>No need for fansub distribution... though fansubbing can still be
>a personal creative project that need not be distributed.
Again, this tells me that you haven't a clue what the REAL COSTS are. I've
been fortunate enough to chat with a couple of people who work for the import
houses and do have an idea of what they're paying, but even if you just
compare relative prices for a series here against in Japan you can see that
we're getting pretty good deals.
> So take it up with the electronic companies who gave us the
>recording function. Hey wait a minute... most are Japanese commercial
>companies as well, nee? Just a matter of income distribution. More
>fans are satisfied and just that profit-seeking leaches of a commercial
>company whine about the profit they should be getting from their
>unfair market power. Hat's off to the creator of good anime... I'll
>happily donate to them to show my appreciation... but no way some
>profit maximizing leach is getting my money.
Again, companies are not liable for providing someone with a tool that ends up
being misused. Again, I don't see why you feel that a company making a profit
from something is bad. If there's no profit then there is no motivation to
continue and, even worse, there's no way to maintain the business or allow it
to grow.
And how many anime creators have you sent donations to in appreciate of their
fine work? It's a nice sentiment, but one I'm willing to bet you've not
actually followed through on.
Matsuura-kun
Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins) wrote:
>In article <55b4sa$l...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt5...@acmex.gatech.edu (Jello)
> <549d0u$u...@news.Hawaii.Edu> <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net> <55an52$l...@nntp1.best.com> wrote:
>>Albert Wong (alb...@best.com) wrote:
>>
>>: So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient
>>
>>thats on TV?!? The basic "stealing from the companies" thing
>>dosen't apply anymore when you can tape their version off of TV.
>
>That's a poor rationalization.
>Viz won't see. Money which they are legally entitled to under
>the copyright law. Right or wrong, that's the way things are.
>Steal if you must, but at least have the responsibility to own
>up to what it is you're doing.
If it's on TV and people record it, then commercial companies
should sue VCR machines for having the record function. The deal
with most copyright says that if it is recorded for private home
usage, there is no problem. Fansubs are not illegal. They are a
creative project conducted for private use. Fansub distribution is
another story. That should be on a grey area.
Do you know how much advertising costs fansub distributors are
saving commercial companies? The world of anime grows in America
and that can only be a plus for commercial companies... as long as
the fansubs are not any titles whose rights are purchased by
commercial companies.
If you want to talk about stealing, don't just talk legally.
What about the fans who are robbed of an opportunity to watch enjoyable
anime? Fans are robbed of the opportunity because commercial companies
want to make a profit off fans who just want to be entertained.
NOW who's the leach, I ask?
How come fansubbers work at such a fast rate and
commercial companies are so slow? Who puts more heart into it?
Obviously those who love their project as opposed to those who
want to make mad profit.
Matsuura-kun
Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins) wrote:
>In article <55cil9$4...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
>> If it's on TV and people record it, then commercial companies
>>should sue VCR machines for having the record function.
>
>the gun makers for putting a trigger on the gun.
The argument I was aiming at was that someone previously said that
you shouldn't record off of TV.
>You're correct that merely subbing a tape for your own use
>isn't illegal, but most fansubbers are also distributing
There are many distributors, but even more private fansubbers who
do it merely as a club project. These are not on the web and are
usually private.
>> Do you know how much advertising costs fansub distributors are
>>saving commercial companies? The world of anime grows in America
>>and that can only be a plus for commercial companies... as long as
>>the fansubs are not any titles whose rights are purchased by
>>commercial companies.
>
>Another poor argument. Do you know how many anime series are
>unlikely to come out over here due to the widespread
>proliferation of fansubs?
Do you know how many anime series have come to the hands of
fans due to the proliferation of fansubs?
>You make it sound like fans have a "right" to anime. You don't.
No, not in the legal sense... but fans deserve it more than
anyone else. Should a woman go to one who can afford her or one
who loves her? Fans love their anime and deserve them.
>*FLAME MODE ON* And YES, you're damned right the companies
>want to make a profit. Why is that wrong?!
>Anyone who starts a business without the intent to
>make money is either a fool or an idiot.*FLAME MODE OFF*
The point is fansubbers are NOT starting a business, just a
desire to ease the pain of anime-starved fans. There's anime for
art and anime for money. There's nothing wrong with making a profit.
You think fansubbers insult the legal system... well profit-leachers
is what burdens us fans. Anime is not a cheap hobby.
God, I hope I don't come off as flaming... attempting a friendly
debate here... ^_^
>Someone explain to me why there exists people in this world
>who wish to enjoy the work of other people without having
>to pay for it?
Art for art's sake. We pay... just what's available. If you
had to loan $5 but found $5 on the street, which would you pick?
One is doing things by the system... but when you find a hole, what
to do?
>you don't want to pay the price then that doesn't give you
>the right to steal it.
Here's the price to pay... wait 5 years for a commercial
company to sub/dub a title. Fans in US are ultimately out of
the geographic definition of the Japanese commercial anime market.
And US commercial companies work slower than the latest news
travelling across the seas from Japan.
>And if you think the import houses are only out to make a "mad"
>profit, then you should compare the prices they charge for a
>series compared to what it goes for in Japan. Even the worst
>prices I've paid for anime (i.e. Gunsmith
>Cats from A.D. Vision) beats out the prices the Japanese paid
>for the same tape and they didn't have to have it translated
>for them beforehand.
Funny, all my friend in Japan copy LD's and rental tapes amongst
each other like they do rental CD's on to MD's... These are all
result of the "record button" on your machine.
>All things considered, we get a pretty damn good deal and the
>import houses still manage to make enough off of the tapes
>to stay in business and pay decent wages to their employees.
>I fail to see how you can view that as a bad thing.
It's not bad. I don't think I'm on flame mode... atleast I hope
I'm not coming off that way. I just see a better thing... and that
is also a result of a flaw in the system. That's what it's all about.
I personally want to defend fansubs because it expresses more creativity
than harm, in my opinion.
Matsuura-kun
alb...@best.com (Albert Wong) wrote:
>In article <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net>, tsu...@comet.net wrote:
>
>>100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
>>I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
>>area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
>
>dub wasn't to your liking.
Again, fansubbing is not illegal. It is a creative project. Fansub
distribution is what should be focused on.
The above ratioanlization has no problem. Imagine this: my sister
is watching Mickey Mouse on TV but we have bad reception... so I take a
picture of the tv with the Mickey Mouse show... scan it, and then redraw
it without snow on my computer so my sister can see it. That is no
problem... like fansubs are a creative project. Now if I sell my
computer redrawn Mickey Mouse to fellow schoolmates and make them pay for
the ink and paper I use... is that illegal? That's what the topic should
be... fansub distribution, not fansubbing.
Les Jenkins
> If it's on TV and people record it, then commercial companies
>should sue VCR machines for having the record function. The deal
>with most copyright says that if it is recorded for private home
>usage, there is no problem. Fansubs are not illegal. They are a
>creative project conducted for private use. Fansub distribution is
>another story. That should be on a grey area.
Your logic is flawed. That's like saying that victims of shootings should sue
the gun makers for putting a trigger on the gun. Incidently, such a fight over
the ability to record television programs has already taken place in the
courts years ago many times over. Still, the copyright laws already have a
"personal use" clause within them which covers exactly that sort of situation.
You're correct that merely subbing a tape for your own use isn't illegal, but
most fansubbers are also distributing their subs which is illegal. When people
talk about fansubbing it is usually assumed that the fansubbers are also
distributing their work and that's the real issue being discussed here. The
point you're making, while technically true, is irrevelent to the discussion
at hand.
> Do you know how much advertising costs fansub distributors are
>saving commercial companies? The world of anime grows in America
>and that can only be a plus for commercial companies... as long as
>the fansubs are not any titles whose rights are purchased by
>commercial companies.
Another poor argument. Do you know how many anime series are unlikely to come
out over here due to the widespread proliferation of fansubs? Video Girl AI is
often mentioned as one of the animes unlikely to be seen due to the
fansubbers. I hope that changes as I'd personally like to see the series and
I'm against buying fansubs from people. You can go to any Con and find tons of
illegal fansubs for sale and even pirated copies of already available anime
from companies such as AnimEigo (one Con I attended a fellow had Urusei
Yatsura bootlegs with the contents of three standard AnimEigo tapes on one
with the AnimEigo copyright and logos still in the recording). Trust me, the
commercial companies don't want people saving them advertising dollars in that
manner.
> If you want to talk about stealing, don't just talk legally.
>What about the fans who are robbed of an opportunity to watch enjoyable
>anime? Fans are robbed of the opportunity because commercial companies
>want to make a profit off fans who just want to be entertained.
>NOW who's the leach, I ask?
You make it sound like fans have a "right" to anime. You don't. God didn't
include it as the thirteenth commandment. You can't be "robbed" of something
you do not "own".
*FLAME MODE ON* And YES, you're damned right the companies want to make a
profit. Why is that wrong?! Of all the boneheaded arguments I've ever heard,
this one ranks as one of the top 10. The reason these companies went into
business was to MAKE MONEY. Anyone who starts a business without the intent to
make money is either a fool or an idiot. NOW who's the leach? Sounds like you
are. *FLAME MODE OFF*
Someone explain to me why there exists people in this world who wish to enjoy
the work of other people without having to pay for it? If the people who own
those things are willing to give it away free (I've written my fair share of
freeware software for various platforms), then great, but if they want to
charge for it and you don't want to pay the price then that doesn't give you
the right to steal it.
> How come fansubbers work at such a fast rate and
>commercial companies are so slow? Who puts more heart into it?
>Obviously those who love their project as opposed to those who
>want to make mad profit.
Sounds like someone has no clue what is involved in licensing anime for import
and translation. Fansubbers don't have to worry about working out contracts
with upwards of four or more Japanese companies for licenses. Fansubbers don't
have to create nice packaging. Fansubbers don't have to establish distribution
channels through national retail chains. Etcetera. When you get rid of all the
red tape the import houses have to dig through and don't worry about things
such as tape quality then is it any surprise that Fansubbers work at such a
fast rate.
And if you think the import houses are only out to make a "mad" profit, then
you should compare the prices they charge for a series compared to what it
goes for in Japan. Even the worst prices I've paid for anime (i.e. Gunsmith
Cats from A.D. Vision) beats out the prices the Japanese paid for the same
tape and they didn't have to have it translated for them beforehand. All
things considered, we get a pretty damn good deal and the import houses still
manage to make enough off of the tapes to stay in business and pay decent
wages to their employees. I fail to see how you can view that as a bad thing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
m...@mysolution.com
So they are huh? Lets try this...
I have all 101 episodes of Touch TV series on my LD and have subtitled
the first few (however poor the translation they are). I am technically
a fan subittler and the output is technically a "Fansub" eventhough it
is for my personal use. So, are fan subs illegal again?
Albert Wong
>Albert Wong (alb...@best.com) wrote:
>
>: So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some dub wasn't
>: to your liking.
>
>i'm sorry but i have to say something here:
>
>How can one honestly say it's theft to get fansubs of a show thats on TV?!?
>The basic "stealing from the companies" thing dosen't apply anymore when
>you can tape their version off of TV.
Well, with Animeigo and VIz selling translated TV episodes in the US, yes, it
is theft.
Now as for "getting stuff off the air", it is supposed to be ok for you to
record stuff off of your TV. And it is supposed to be ok for some dood to
record stuff off his TV in Japan. It is not ok for that guy in Japan to give
you copies of the tapes unless you could have recieved the same broadcast from
Japan.
Albert Wong
yes
Albert Wong
In article <55cj85$4...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
> Here's an alternate future... anime becomes so popular that
>companies are no longer in monopolistic competition model, but
Companies in a same market, not being competitive? That is a pretty
unrealistic future. Every company wants to be A#1, top dog, Microsoft of
their particular market and it will remain like that.
>becomes perfect competition and starts to dish out all kinds of
>anime at the price true to REAL COSTS. Now everybody is happy.
What is the real cost of anime?
Albert Wong
> If you want to talk about stealing, don't just talk legally.
>What about the fans who are robbed of an opportunity to watch enjoyable
>anime? Fans are robbed of the opportunity because commercial companies
>want to make a profit off fans who just want to be entertained.
>NOW who's the leach, I ask?
The ability to watch anime is a priviledge not a right. Now, if these fans
feel so robbed of their opportunity to watch anime, perhaps they should put
their money where their mouths are and fork up some cash and buy the stuff
from Japan. You don't have to wait months for the US release and nothing gets
in the way of your experience when you buy the stuff from Japan.
Albert Wong
>computer redrawn Mickey Mouse to fellow schoolmates and make them pay for
>the ink and paper I use... is that illegal? That's what the topic should
Yes.
Albert Wong
In article <01bbc7cb$b7ebe800$17320dcb@katsumi>, "David Geeves" <a...@spirit.com.au> wrote:
>
>There are claims that Video Girl Ai is too widely spread as a fansub
>to be worthwhile releasing commercially. I'd buy it in a flash as a
>sub. How many people with it already as a fansub would buy it?
Well, this is only you. For every one of you, there are probably 20 other
people who will just keep their fansubs and won't buy the real thing.
Probably rationalizing that the licensed version was not the same as the
fansub or something.
Lawrence Eng
alb...@best.com (Albert Wong) writes:
>Well, with Animeigo and VIz selling translated TV episodes in the US, yes, it
>is theft.
The companies are stealing from us when they sell us something we can
get for free by going to Japan, turning on our TVs, and recording. Of
course, I understand that this isn't always the case, as many of the older
shows are available to purchase in Japan. For the new shows, who is to say a
bunch of friends and I can't spring 300 dollars for a new VCR, send it to
Japan, and use our _remote_ control to make mass copies for each of us?
This, of course, is an extreme analogy, but I hope you get my point. In a
sense, we all contributed our share to the guys in Japan who are sitting in
front of TVs making us our _personal_ copies. =)
>Now as for "getting stuff off the air", it is supposed to be ok
>for you to record stuff off of your TV. And it is supposed to be ok for
>some dood to record stuff off his TV in Japan. It is not ok for that guy
>in Japan to give you copies of the tapes unless you could have recieved the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>same broadcast from Japan.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We're not "allowed" to record for our friends unless they are geographically
capable of watching it at the time of the showing? Lets say I told my friend
to copy Twin Peaks for me because I was out of town that week and couldn't
watch it. Is he not allowed to make me a copy of his tape? If he isn't
allowed, that's a ridiculous law. If he _is_ allowed ...
We all _potentially_ could have received the same broadcast in Japan. The
American companies are only taking advantage of the fact that most Americans
cannot, and they are charging for the service because they want a profit.
I don't need them; I'd rather get fansubs. If the kids in Japan don't have
to pay for it yet, why should I?
This is an interesting point. Does this mean that since I can't get Star
Trek easily here at school, it would be illegal for my parents or friends in
California to make copies of their taped episodes and mail them to me?
Legally, am I forced to wait until Paramount puts the tapes out on video? I
_could_ go back to California and watch the stuff for free, but I'm stuck
here at school. Where does the law start and stop? Believe it or not, the
law _does_ have grey areas. If everything was clear cut, we wouldn't have
lawyers duking it out.
Thus...
I _could_ go to Japan, turn on the TV and then watch the stuff for free.
Alas, I am stuck here again. Is it illegal for my friends in Asia to make me
copies of stuff off on TV _which they get for free_? It depends on the
nebulous term "personal use." Also, who is losing money here? The airline
companies and possibly the advertisers.
Also, since it is the advertisers who pay for the airtime, I guess it would
only be fair for the commercials to be left on the tapes. I don't mind
Japanese commericals.
My point: certain fansubs are not as illegal as others, if at all. Are most
fansub distributors breaking the law regarding stuff available
commerically in Japan? Not American law, but international copyright law.
The FBI won't come knocking in your door, but the Japanese companies could
prosecute if they wanted to. Is fansub distribution harmful or helpful to
anime as a whole, and how do anime creators feel about it? I'd say fansubs
help the industry more than they hurt it, and they were especially
important during the dark ages of American anime fandom before Animeigo,
USMC, and the rest. Tori Miki (who wrote the new Patlabor movie screenplay,
and friend of Oshii and Kawamori), for one, said that he thinks fansubs are
okay as long they aren't distributed against commercially released stuff,
which is the general attitude of most distributors nowadays.
Fansub distribution is usually illegal in terms of breaking international
copyright law. So is most distibuted fanfic, fan art, doujinshi, manga
translations, and any number of fandom related things, including mass
showings of anime without asking for permission. Fandom would be sad indeed
without any of these things. They know it in Japan, and American companies
ought to know it in the US. Some people and companies do, actually.
-Lawrence
Ender Wiggin
Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote in article #37453 about
[Fansubs are illegal.......]:
>>>distribution, not fansubbing.
>>
>>faster than you'd think possible.
>
>motive is purer than those of profit-maximizing companies. The
>difference is that they are using their time to benefit anime fans.
>Whereas the commercial companies are trying to benefit themselves.
When you distribute, you pass the line into an illegal act. Purity
of purpose is not above the law. There really isn't a grey area here.
Anthony Lau I G en...@neosoft.com
Graduate Student N M U O al69...@bcm.tmc.edu
Developmental Biology A E IS S I!
Jeffrey E. Fiscus
> Now as for "getting stuff off the air", it is supposed to be ok for you to
> record stuff off of your TV. And it is supposed to be ok for some dood to
> record stuff off his TV in Japan. It is not ok for that guy in Japan to give
> you copies of the tapes unless you could have recieved the same
broadcast from
> Japan.
For those of us who don't know the finer points of international treaties
and copyright laws, could you explain exactly why it's illegal for someone
in Japan to tape something off of TV and give it to someone in the States,
but it is legal for someone in the States to tape something off of TV and
give it to someone in the States.
Jeff
--
"...you can't be a hero hiding underneath your bed, got to live the life, you create inside your head..." -- From, "I am a Pioneer!"
Jeff Fiscus (803) 772-9375 ko...@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/koros fis...@psc.sc.edu
Invid fan
In article <koros-01119...@cola34.scsn.net>, ko...@scsn.net
(Jeffrey E. Fiscus) wrote:
> For those of us who don't know the finer points of international treaties
> and copyright laws, could you explain exactly why it's illegal for someone
> in Japan to tape something off of TV and give it to someone in the States,
> but it is legal for someone in the States to tape something off of TV and
> give it to someone in the States.
>
It is illegal to tape a tv show in the US and give it to someone else. This
topic comes up occasionaly in Babylon 5 newsgroups. Fans have been told NOT
to make noise about asking for tapes. While the creators are willing to
look the other way so long as it's only someone asking for an episode they
missed (as opposed to the kind of distribution system fansubs have), Warner
Brothers will (and has) crack down if they take a look and notice the
behavior.
--
"Say, Rose? Do you believe in Magic?" ! Chris Mack
"Not really, no. But that's NOT what you're asking me." ! 'Invid fan'
"It's not?" !
"Nope. What you're asking me is, do I believe in weird !
shit? And the answer is yes. Of course I do. I'd be !
crazy not to. I've had a weird shit life." _______!
- Rose and Carla, THE SANDMAN: THE KINDLY ONES ! In...@localnet.com
Ender Wiggin
Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote in article #37436 about
[Fansubs are illegal.......]:
>
> Here's an alternate future... anime becomes so popular that
>companies are no longer in monopolistic competition model, but
>anime at the price true to REAL COSTS. Now everybody is happy.
>a personal creative project that need not be distributed.
Uhh...video tapes of movie blockbusters produced here in the
United States cost between $19.95 to $29.95 when "priced to sell." Domestic
laserdiscs, when in the "lowend" (i.e. Not those fancy box sets, special
CAV versions, etc.) market cost from $24.95 to $50. Anime domestic LD's
are well within the normal price range for LD's ($35-$40).
Sounds like we are already in the "price true to REAL COSTS" to me.
Nyk TARR
Once upon a time in the land of rec.arts.anime.misc,
Albert Wong wrote:
> In article <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net>, tsu...@comet.net wrote:
>>There are two exceptions to this. I ordered some Ranma 1/2 in the
>>100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
>>I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
>>area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
> So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some dub wasn't
> to your liking.
I'd rather rationalize the decision on moral grounds. It is 'theft' legally,
but not morally. I'm sure most people who watch fansubs are not depriving
the creator of anything. If there was no fansub available, they wouldn't
buy the anime in any other form. This is easy to argue where there is no
commercial translation available, it also means that when there is a
commercial version available, you should buy it. In this system of morals,
the creator only loses out when people get fansubs and then don't buy the
commercial version, when it is released.
Again, I will stress, this view is not legal, but it is (IMHO) 'moral'.
Nyk
--
____ _
/__ _]| http://www.tomobiki.demon.co.uk
/ \/ |_ | Rochdale, UK Team AMIGA
/ /\ _)| @try alt.games.mornington.cresent@
--
Kimagure Orange Road: A girl loves this guy who loves a girl
Andrew Hall
Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
> How come fansubbers work at such a fast rate and
>commercial companies are so slow? Who puts more heart into it?
>Obviously those who love their project as opposed to those who
>want to make mad profit.
>
I would have to say that Software Sculptors does not fall under this
description. They have a small amount of titles, put a lot of heart
into each one, and release it on time. The Slayers sub is one of the
best ones out there. Plus their prices are at the bare minimum. $19,95
for a tape with 3 episodes? 4 for Dancougar. (120 min for $19.95? and
subtitled. WOW!). If any fan can't afford that, then they're a cheap
bastard. ;-) They sell their dubbs and subbs for the same low price,
not like Manga and others with the $19.95 dub vs. the $29.95 sub that
comes out 2 or 3 months later. And people wonder why companies can say
that the dubb is outselling the sub. Fansubbers can usually find someone
willing to translate for next to no money. Commercial companies have to
pay a translator a LOT. Ask Neil Nadelman who did the translation for
Slayers. I'm sure he could enlighten you far more than I could. Don't be
so quick to say that every commercial company is in it for profit only.
Without Animeigo, a little company that started out when commercial Anime
didn't exist, the commercial anime market would probably be a lot
different today. And I'm sure when they started, making a huge profit
wasn't on their mind. Mr.Woodhead? Fansubbers also work fast beacuse they
don't have to worry about going over budget on a project, or having to
pay the people they licence the project from many thousands of dollars
for the master print to work from. Nor do they worry (too much) about
when it's finished. Most companies have a set street date. A street
date that must be met, or all that expensive advertising they had to pay
for in Animerica and other mags becomes worthless. Fansubbers don't have
to worry about 1/100th of the things that a commercial company does. For
fansubbers, they have the time to put more heart into it. Commercial
companies with 5 or 6 different releases a month don't. Still, there are
plenty of companies out there that are putting out a lot of good stuff,
and doing it well. And there are plenty of ones that arent. Since this
isn't a flame, no names will be mentioned. ;-)
Andy
*Sig file currently on vacation*
Phillip Sral
In article <55bf0i$5...@news.mysolution.com>, m...@mysolution.com says...
>
> So they are huh? Lets try this...
> I have all 101 episodes of Touch TV series on my LD and have
>subtitled the first few (however poor the translation they are). I am
>technically a fan subittler and the output is technically a "Fansub"
>eventhough it is for my personal use. So, are fan subs illegal again?
>
Fansubbing and/or Fandubbing for your own personal use (even to the
extent of showing your work to friends IS NOT illegal. It IS LLEGAL when
you distribute what you have subbed/dubbed to other people WHETHER OR NOT
you are charging a fee. There is no grey area about it.
That ends my reply to the previous poster, but since I've come out of the
"lurking" woodwork, I will say that I've been following this thread for a
bit, and wanted to say something about a few comments I saw earlier in
the thread.
For instance, soneone stated something to the effect that "even if a
fansubber is making some profit, making $1.00 or $2.00 a tape is nothing
compared to what the big companies make".
Well, believe it or not, after a company gets through paying for the
rights from the Japanese, paying the Laywers, paying the people involed
in the actual English production, advertising, designing and printing
video cassete cases, shipping, etc.; most people might be surprised to
discover that if they ARE making $2.00 to $3.00 profit per tape after all
costs, they're doing GOOD.
And more recently, someone else stated that Fansubbing is saving the "Big
Companies" in advertising cost. Let's see, even if a Fansubber either
openly states either somewhere in the credits that "this title is also
available subtitled from <Insert Big Company Name Here>", if someone who
saw the fansub liked it, I believe they will more likely attempt to get a
copy of that sub from the Fansubber at the scene. If the Fansubber does
distribute, the U.S. Company that actually paid for the right to subtitle
the anime in question has just lost a potential sale. Since advertising
is done to INCREASE a company's sales figures, I think the arguement is a
bit moot.
The Bottom Line is this:
Fans who subtitle or dub can rationalize all they like, but the simple
fact is that Fansubbing/dubbing for your own personal use (even to the
extent of showing the completed work to friends) is NOT illegal.
Distributing fansubbed/dubbed copies to those friends FOR PROFIT, or NOT
FOR PROFIT is ILLEGAL.
No ifs and or buts about it.
Sorry, but this is a subject that hits close to home with regard to my
participation in anime fandom, and I have had to wrestle with it since
1989.
-Phillip Sral
--
she...@primenet.com * Co-Founder of SHERBERT PRODUCTIONS *
(aka: Phillip Sral) (a fan dubbing group)
We specialize in english-parody dubs
of Japanese Anime!
SHERBERT PRODUCTIONS Web Page:
+===============================================+
| http://www.primenet.com/~sherbie/shrbhome.htm |
|-----------------------------------------------|
\ Some of our Works include: /
\===========================================/
| RANMA 1/2 - "Summer Vacation" |
| & |
| NINJA TEAM GATCHAMAN (Part 1) |
| "7-Zark-7 Must Die!" |
+-----------------------------------------+
Andrew Hall
N...@tomobiki.demon.co.uk (Nyk TARR) wrote:
>
>
>I'd rather rationalize the decision on moral grounds. It is 'theft' legally,
>but not morally. I'm sure most people who watch fansubs are not depriving
>the creator of anything. If there was no fansub available, they wouldn't
>buy the anime in any other form. This is easy to argue where there is no
>commercial translation available, it also means that when there is a
>commercial version available, you should buy it. In this system of morals,
>the creator only loses out when people get fansubs and then don't buy the
>commercial version, when it is released.
>
>Again, I will stress, this view is not legal, but it is (IMHO) 'moral'.
>
>Nyk
>--
But, I for example am not depriving the creators of the Escaflowne TV
series of anything. As a matter of fact, I'm supporting them. I watched
one episode of the TV series (Ep 5) from a tape I got that was recorded
right off the TV in Japan. Then I got a fansubb of the TV series. Then I
turned around and ordered the first 3 laserdisc releases. From getting
the first tape and the fan-subb, the creators of the series lost nothing
from me. As a matter of fact, they got a hell of a lot more money from
me than any fan-subber ever did. Simply because I enjoyed their product
so much, I was willing to buy it.
Andy
Tsurugi
N...@tomobiki.demon.co.uk (Nyk TARR) wrote:
>Once upon a time in the land of rec.arts.anime.misc,
>Albert Wong wrote:
>> In article <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net>, tsu...@comet.net wrote:
>>>There are two exceptions to this. I ordered some Ranma 1/2 in the
>>>100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
>>>I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
>>>area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
>> So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some dub wasn't
>> to your liking.
Exactly. Besides, what's the chance of all the DBZ movies and episode
even coming out in Amarica?
>I'd rather rationalize the decision on moral grounds. It is 'theft' legally,
>but not morally. I'm sure most people who watch fansubs are not depriving
>the creator of anything. If there was no fansub available, they wouldn't
>buy the anime in any other form. This is easy to argue where there is no
>commercial translation available, it also means that when there is a
>commercial version available, you should buy it. In this system of morals,
>the creator only loses out when people get fansubs and then don't buy the
>commercial version, when it is released.
>Again, I will stress, this view is not legal, but it is (IMHO) 'moral'.
Yes, someone who understands!!!
I buy Fan-subs to get stuff faster. I don't give a shit about the
quality, subbed vs. dubbed, and unless it's estreamly insane, the
price. I do intend to buy the Ranma episodes when they come out
dubbed but I don't feel like waiting that long to see them. IMO
fansubs are a good thing even though they are by US standerds illegal.
Then again, taping stuff off network TV is illegal becasue you don't
pay for it as you do cable. I will not steal, not even a 25 cent
pack of gum, but in my eyes, fansubs are not stealing.
Tsurugi
Andrew Hall
Andrew Hall <ah...@capecod.net> wrote:
>N...@tomobiki.demon.co.uk (Nyk TARR) wrote:
>>
>>
>>I'd rather rationalize the decision on moral grounds. It is 'theft' legally,
>>but not morally. I'm sure most people who watch fansubs are not depriving
>>the creator of anything. If there was no fansub available, they wouldn't
>>buy the anime in any other form. This is easy to argue where there is no
>>commercial translation available, it also means that when there is a
>>commercial version available, you should buy it. In this system of morals,
>>the creator only loses out when people get fansubs and then don't buy the
>>commercial version, when it is released.
>>
>>Again, I will stress, this view is not legal, but it is (IMHO) 'moral'.
>>
>>--
I'll avoid the theft bit. ;-)
But, I for example am not depriving the creators of the Escaflowne TV
series of anything. As a matter of fact, I'm supporting them. I watched
one episode of the TV series (Ep 5) from a tape I got that was recorded
right off the TV in Japan. Then I got a fansubb of the TV series. Then I
turned around and ordered the first 3 laserdisc releases. From getting
the first tape and the fan-subb, the creators of the series lost nothing
from me. As a matter of fact, they got a hell of a lot more money from
me than any fan-subber ever did. Simply because I enjoyed their product
so much, I was willing to buy it.
*ahem* To continue before I got bumped. If I had never gotten the
original TV tape or the fansubb of Escaflowne, I would never have
given the original makers ANY money for any laserdisc. While I'm
probably in the minority here, I like to think that there are other
people who enjoy a series so much, that they would be willing to pay
the price of importing a disc, or even getting one straight from a
shop in Japan just to get the original product. I can't even begin to
calculate just how much money I would probably be spending on Japanese
laserdiscs if they ever started releasing Dragonball & Dragonball Z
TV Eps. Hell, I still want to buy the Ghibli Box and both Fushigi Yuugi
boxes. Can I afford them? Not at the moment. But I will eventually. All
because of a Fan-Sub.
Andy
Tomar
In article <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
Brad Orahood <szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
>: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
[clippage]
>Bah. Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand. Commercial
>companies are using them as a scapegoat. The fact of the matter
>is, there is a demand for subtitled Anime, and for the most
>part, the only way fans can get it in a timely matter is
>through a fansubber.
I disagree. There is a demand for FREE Anime...not subbed.
This is the reason why everyone hauls there VCRs to
conventions, to friends houses, and to other various
locations. They aren't trying to expand their horizons
on Anime because you can do this by just watching the
movie or tape once or by borrowing the tape. They do it
to make a copy to keep. This means that they are
copying just because it's cheaper than buying the real thing.
>I am very tired of waiting months, if not years, between the
>release of a dub and a sub. That is if the companies decide
>to release a subtitle at all.
Bah...try the original Japanese versions. You'd be
surprised by how much you can pick up by watching
the Anime and getting the right written material
(like the manga or a companion movie art book).
>There are two facts that cannot be dismissed:
> 1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
> 2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
>
>Now the commercial companies have two options - fill that
>demand, or let someone else do it. So far, they've let
>someone else do it. If they want to cry foul at this point, don't
>expect any sympathy.
Your identifying the wrong demand. They most want a cheaper
translated Anime and fansubs fill this void. It's literally
a black market.
If you hypothesis where true, then fansubbers would be making
dubs instead of subs. The demand for dubs is bigger than
subs, but yet fan groups continue to sub. Why? It's because
dubbing cost far more time and money than subbing and they
certainly wouldn't do it for free. It just isn't feasible
and they don't even try. Fansubbing groups do subs because
it's cheap...not because there is a demand (although I
will admit that what gets subbed is highly determined
by demand and popularity).
How are companies going to compete with free? They do
it by sacking the rest of the people who legitimately
buy merchandise because they can't get their money from
people who steal. *sigh*
>: To say that fansubbers don't interfere with commercial companies is being
>: a little blind to the current situation.
>
>To say commercial companies have been responsive to the fans
>is being equally as blind to the situation.
All companies have been fairly responsive to fan input.
But the problem is that if the company gave 100% of
what the fan wanted, then they would be out of business.
Remember that a company isn't in business to help
the fan out...they are in it to make a buck. If
a company can't make money on a project, then they are
going to find it very hard to raise capital from investors
to do it.
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu |"I've got a paper, a project,
--- A slightly mysterious net entity --- |and 2 assignments to do....
Full Server Home Page: |It's time to watch Anime."
http://helser14.res.iastate.edu/tomar/anime/anime.html
David Aldridge
Albert Wong (alb...@best.com) writes:
> The ability to watch anime is a priviledge not a right. Now, if these fans
> feel so robbed of their opportunity to watch anime, perhaps they should put
> their money where their mouths are and fork up some cash and buy the stuff
> from Japan. You don't have to wait months for the US release and nothing gets
> in the way of your experience when you buy the stuff from Japan.
How do you feel about those who rent out commercially available anime
titles? It has the same evils of people not buying what they've already
seen, copying what they rent, etc. The main difference is that fansubbers
offer plenty of titles that you can't get (and understand) otherwise, act
a lot quicker on titles that do eventually get picked up, and don't
distribute what's commercially available.
Seriously, if even the major companies in the anime business aren't
complaining, and in some cases respect the interest and dedication of
fansubbers, what's the problem?
Tomar
>>In article <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net>, tsu...@comet.net wrote:
>>
>>>There are two exceptions to this. I ordered some Ranma 1/2 in the
>>>100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
>>>I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
>>>area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
>>
>>So, you rationalize your theft because you are impatient and some
>>dub wasn't to your liking.
>
>
>distribution is what should be focused on.
>
> The above ratioanlization has no problem. Imagine this: my sister
>is watching Mickey Mouse on TV but we have bad reception... so I take a
>picture of the tv with the Mickey Mouse show... scan it, and then redraw
>it without snow on my computer so my sister can see it. That is no
>the ink and paper I use... is that illegal? That's what the topic should
>be... fansub distribution, not fansubbing.
Wrong. Fansubbing is illegal and so is the hypothetical situation.
You've taken a copyrighted material altered it, without the
permission of the copyright holder, and continued to distribute it,
without the permission of the copyright holder. In the case
of fansubs, you've take the original work of Anime, put words
at the bottom, and distributed it freely. In the case of the
M Mouse picture, you've digitally altered the image and gave
it to another person. In both case, it doesn't matter if
you receive payment, you've broken the copyright laws.
(and I do believe the Mouse would get you if this did happen
^_^;;;;)
Albert Wong
> I agree fansub distribution is more illegal than legal... but their
>motive is purer than those of profit-maximizing companies. The
>difference is that they are using their time to benefit anime fans.
>Whereas the commercial companies are trying to benefit themselves.
Welcome to the world of capitalism.
Albert Wong
>pay for it as you do cable. I will not steal, not even a 25 cent
>pack of gum, but in my eyes, fansubs are not stealing.
Hmm, you would not steal from a huge megacorporation like wrigley's gum, but
you would steal from some smaller company that is trying to make anime cheap
and available in the US?
"but in my eyes", interesting statement. If everyone took your point of view,
laws would be useles, becuase "in their eyes", they thought it was ok to steal
something of that you own. They could steal your property because, in their
eyes, they needed it more than you.
Albert Wong
>
>> Now as for "getting stuff off the air", it is supposed to be ok for you to
>> record stuff off of your TV. And it is supposed to be ok for some dood to
>> record stuff off his TV in Japan. It is not ok for that guy in Japan to give
>
>> you copies of the tapes unless you could have recieved the same
>broadcast from
>> Japan.
>
>and copyright laws, could you explain exactly why it's illegal for someone
>in Japan to tape something off of TV and give it to someone in the States,
>but it is legal for someone in the States to tape something off of TV and
>give it to someone in the States.
One can assume that some syndicated TV program in the US is available across
the US. Unlike some show in Japan that we cannot recieve in the US.
Albert Wong
In article <55et0g$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Aldridge) wrote:
>
>How do you feel about those who rent out commercially available anime
>titles? It has the same evils of people not buying what they've already
Who? The video store owner who already paid for the video? Or the person who
rents the video?
A. Video owner dood pays for tape. Renter person rents tape. Money goes to
Video renter guy. Video renter guy can buy more tapes from US company. Money
goes to US company. US company has money to license more titles. Money goes
to Japan company.
B. Anime fan dood gets fansub tape. "Service Fee" goes to fansubber. Money
stops at fansubber.
Hmm, I can see someone arguing that fansubber had to buy the LD, hence
supporting the Japanese company.
So, how does this strike you..
Fansubbers buys LD from local retailer. Cost is about $100. The $100 floats
up the retail channel, from store ownerer to distributor and eventually
Japanese anime company sees the money. I'll even say that they get all $100.
US company wanting to license anime from Japanese company and is willing to
spend $100K to license a title. US company notices anime fans in US already
has fansub version. US company decides not to license. Japanese company loses
$100K in license fees.
If this is the way anime fans want to help the Japanese companies, I'm not an
anime fan anymore.
>Seriously, if even the major companies in the anime business aren't
>complaining, and in some cases respect the interest and dedication of
>fansubbers, what's the problem?
Having gotten in heated conversation with a few of these industry people, I
can safely say that they do not like fansubs. Now, as to why they are no
vocally protesting fansubs, I leave that to them to explain.
If you are curious, give them a call and ask them. I'm sure they will give
you the straight dope.
Ryan Mathews
In <55cil9$4...@cocoa.brown.edu> Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> writes:
>
> Do you know how much advertising costs fansub distributors are
>saving commercial companies?
I'm sure many will pooh-pooh this argument, but I believe it has some
merit. Pioneer's TENCHI MUYO! has been wildly successful for it's
niche (anime OAV). If it hadn't been for the Nexus fansubs, I doubt I
would have heard of the series by the time it came out. As it was, it
was one of the most eagerly anticipated releases in the fan community.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com "Sayonara to intrusive noise/
SnailMail: 401 Mortimer Drive #410 No more childish play and no more toys"
Bedford OH, 44146 -- Sharon Apple, "Information High"
Lawrence Eng
alb...@best.com (Albert Wong) writes:
>>For those of us who don't know the finer points of international treaties
>>and copyright laws, could you explain exactly why it's illegal for someone
>>in Japan to tape something off of TV and give it to someone in the States,
>>but it is legal for someone in the States to tape something off of TV and
>>give it to someone in the States.
>One can assume that some syndicated TV program in the US is available across
>the US. Unlike some show in Japan that we cannot recieve in the US.
That's a silly argument, and lots of shows available in one part of the
US are not available in other parts of the country. For example, the
Highlander cartoon isn't available in New York. Am I not allowed to get
copies of this from California from my siblings? Just how geographically far
away does one have to be from the site of broadcast for the case to become
illegal? In terms of mailing stuff, Internet resources, and even travel
time, Japan isn't really that far away. We live in a shrinking world.
Any person willing to spend money for the proper resources can get access to
Japanese shows. Maybe it isn't totally feasible, but it's certainly
possible.
Thus, I can say "One can assume that some syndicated TV program in Japan is
available all around the world." Thus, swapping tapes of TV shows with
people from Japan would be okay (provided that such tapes are not yet
available commercially) just as it's okay that I trade copied tapes of
American shows with the guy who lives down the street who _also_ potentially
could have recorded it himself.
Real life example:
They show anime and other Japanese shows on American international channels.
Two examples: Crayon Shin Chan in Hawaii and Iron Chef (game show) in Los
Angeles. Can we make copies of these to give to our friends? Are we only
allowed to give them to our friends in Hawaii and California, since it's
already easily available to them? Where do you draw the line when you talk
about geographic availability?
My point:
Geographic distance becomes almost meaningless when you consider the scope
of modern communications. Hence, a lot of laws become fuzzy and hard to
interpret.
Is it important that we talk about this difficult issue? Yes. It's important
that fans know _exactly_ what they are doing, legal or otherwise. They can
make their own decisions from there.
-Lawrence
Albert Wong
[the story of how one guy found a fansub and ended up buying LDs deleted]
I've heard the stories on how some person got some fansubs, loved the story so
much that they ended up buying the LDs a few times. But these types of people
are a minority. The "bootleg tape buying cause they don't care where it comes
from" types are gonna get fansubs and will not buy the original version from
Japan or the US. That is lost sales.
Ryan Mathews
Y'know, this point is so ridiculously moot that it astounds me that
people still waste time arguing it. Fansubs aren't going away, and
fans aren't going to stop obtaining them. As long as American anime
companies...
-- don't pick up titles
-- refuse to release subs
-- refuse to release LDs
...fansubs will exist. Moral or immoral, the fans who pick them up
don't give a damn. Some are indeed cheapos who don't want to pay their
fair share, but some are just fans who aren't being served by the
companies they're expected to support.
Certainly no-one can accuse me of not paying my fair share. Quite
frankly, I think I'm spending away my future on anime. I haven't
obtained a fansub in years, mostly because I can see them at my club
without having to own them. Nevertheless, I am considering getting a
few, because I'm sick of waiting for titles that it seems will never be
picked up, e.g. COMBUSTIBLE CAMPUS GUARDRESS. My conscience is clear,
because I know that, should someone ever bring GUARDRESS out
professionally, especially on LD, I'll buy it the moment it hits the
shelves.
As for the argument that fansubs are preventing some titles from
entering the market, I have to laugh. First companies say that subs
don't sell, pushing the price up or refusing to release subs at all,
then they turn around and tell us that these undesirable subs are
pushing them out of the market?
And as for the argument that fansubs out-compete pro releases because
they're free, fansubs aren't *that* easy to get. They're only
obtainable through the fan network, which, as the companies never tire
of telling us, is only the tiniest portion of the market.
Ryan Mathews
In <01bbc7cb$b7ebe800$17320dcb@katsumi> "David Geeves"
<a...@spirit.com.au> writes:
>
>There are claims that Video Girl Ai is too widely spread as a fansub
>to be worthwhile releasing commercially. I'd buy it in a flash as a
>sub. How many people with it already as a fansub would buy it?
Put it out on LD and you can chalk me up in the "buy" column, and yes,
I own copies of the fansubs.
Sean Yip
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote in article
<55ak6a$j...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>...
> In article <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu
(Brad Orahood) writes:
> >
> >Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand.
>
> Yup. People want things for free/cheap whenever they can.
> The general philosophy is that it's allright to steal,
> as long as you can't get caught.
>
Come on. I think many people who get fansubs have reasons other than just
wanting free/cheap stuff. In the US, most fans get them because many
excellent shows are simply not being released by US companies. Take Nadia
for example. I put off getting fansub for the series for a long time,
waiting for Streamline to release the entire series, which the company
promised so. But what happened after I bought the first two volumns. It
now looks like I will not see the rest of it in the foreseeable future, and
it seems that the only really reasonable way for me to finish watching the
series before I die is to get fansubs.
I'm not trying to argue that it is less illegal to get fansubs because it
is not commercially available, and you can always tell me to get the
Japanese release and to learn Japanese. I personally do not believe this
is reasonable, which I'm sure some people disagree. But I guess everyone
draws their own moral judgement.
> > 1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
>
> That explains drugs...
>
Comparing fansubs with drugs is not fair because, unlike drug dealers,
fansubbers in general are not looking to profit from their works.
> > 2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
>
> Very little demand, looking at market figures.
> But the demand is there, thus the fansubbers exist.
> --
> Enrique Conty
Cthulhu
In article <55dgqf$f...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>
>In article <55cil9$4...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
>> If you want to talk about stealing, don't just talk legally.
>>What about the fans who are robbed of an opportunity to watch enjoyable
>>anime? Fans are robbed of the opportunity because commercial companies
>>want to make a profit off fans who just want to be entertained.
>>NOW who's the leach, I ask?
>
>The ability to watch anime is a priviledge not a right. Now, if these fans
>feel so robbed of their opportunity to watch anime, perhaps they should put
>their money where their mouths are and fork up some cash and buy the stuff
>from Japan. You don't have to wait months for the US release and nothing
>gets in the way of your experience when you buy the stuff from Japan.
Aaah. But then the American companies should be equally pissed off. The
effect would be exactly the same as what would have happened if i had
watched a fansub: the U.S. company would have lost money to COMPETITION.
And BTW, I think fansubs count as anime from Japan.
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <55g0o9$6...@nntp1.best.com>, Albert Wong <alb...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <55et0g$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Aldridge) wrote:
>>
>>How do you feel about those who rent out commercially available anime
>>titles? It has the same evils of people not buying what they've already
>
>Who? The video store owner who already paid for the video? Or the person who
>rents the video?
>
>A. Video owner dood pays for tape. Renter person rents tape. Money goes to
>Video renter guy. Video renter guy can buy more tapes from US company. Money
>goes to US company. US company has money to license more titles. Money goes
>to Japan company.
So far so good...assuming that the titles are available for the video store
owner to purchase in the first place.
>B. Anime fan dood gets fansub tape. "Service Fee" goes to fansubber. Money
>stops at fansubber.
As I understand "fan ethics", no fansubber should accept a "service fee" for
any of their work. God knows there are enough "not for profit" notices
plastered all over much of the fansubbed material in circulation out there.
Which is not to say that some fansubbers don't "profit" anyway...
>Hmm, I can see someone arguing that fansubber had to buy the LD, hence
>supporting the Japanese company.
>
>So, how does this strike you..
>
>Fansubbers buys LD from local retailer. Cost is about $100. The $100 floats
>up the retail channel, from store ownerer to distributor and eventually
>Japanese anime company sees the money. I'll even say that they get all $100.
>
>US company wanting to license anime from Japanese company and is willing to
>spend $100K to license a title. US company notices anime fans in US already
>has fansub version. US company decides not to license. Japanese company loses
>$100K in license fees.
This is where it gets more tenuous. It _might_ be the case that the U.S.
company sees fansubs and decides not to buy. OR, the company sees the
fansubs, and maybe reads the net, discovers that a titles is popular with the
"fans", who somehow keep seeing titles before they're commercially available,
and use that as a bellweather of success in the larger market. Certainly,
much of the acquisitions I've seen companies doing in the last couple years
seems to have been strongly influenced by what the fan community was
enthusiastic about.
It can be argued that the efforts of fansubbers, who lack the institutional
weight of the commercial firms, serve to "ready" the market for the
commercial product by starting the word-of-mouth network going and garnering
opinions from a segment of the market. This should lower the economic
uncertainty of a title's chances of commercial success, I would think. Now,
if a fansub becomes _too_ widespread, I could see justification in concerns
about whether the commercial copy would substitute for the fansubbed one, but
(a) several sources keep insisting that the fan community (who has fansubs)
is small compared to the market at large (who does not), and (b) at least for
new titles, the better commercial firms seem to be agile _enough_ that they
could do a commercial release before the fan market gets completely
saturated.
It can also be pointed out that the considerable quality of some of the fansubs
out there requires the commercial firms to raise their standards, but that's
not exactly a point worth belaboring overlong. =)
>If this is the way anime fans want to help the Japanese companies, I'm not an
>anime fan anymore.
Well, here's something to think about: how is it possible for commercial
anime releases in the U.S. to be growing so exponentially these days? I would
submit that the fan base (with their fan activities) have been instrumental in
"cracking" the market in preparation for the commercial big guns, and that
the fan community still continues to assist in the growth of the market by
proselytizing and lowering the barriers to acceptance for the commercial
firms.
As for me, I am committed to supporting the works I find meritorious, which
would be one of the reasons why I've spent as much as I have on Japanese
LD's and manga (and probably the chief reason I'm studying Japanese). Rather
than have to slog through the morass of fan versus commercial translation
efforts, I have decided for myself to go straight to the source. And I realize
that not everyone may be dispoed to do the same.
As always, everything in moderation.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Cthulhu
In article <55c7ju$r...@herald.concentric.net>, Dr...@cris.com says...
>Every fansub, whether a profit is made on it or not, is money Viz won't see.
>Money which they are legally entitled to under the copyright law. Right or
>wrong, that's the way things are.
>
>Steal if you must, but at least have the responsibility to own up to what it
>is you're doing.
You want to talk about money that Viz won't see? I'm watching the Cantonese
dubs of Rama, which were done by a completely different company than Viz.
Each one of these (commerically released) episodes that I watch is money
that Viz won't see.
You'll have to condemn me too.
Cthulhu
In article <55g0o9$6...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>
>US company wanting to license anime from Japanese company and is willing to
>spend $100K to license a title. US company notices anime fans in US already
>has fansub version. US company decides not to license. Japanese company
loses
>$100K in license fees.
WRONG! At least one, Arctic Animation, will immediately discontinue a
title once there is even a possibility that some commerical company
may release it.
Cthulhu
In article <55fuij$6...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
I'd like to welcome YOU, Albert, to the world of art.
Well I'll accept that fansubs are illegal, your "fansubs are immoral"
argument is REALLY weak once you think about it.
Consider:
I'm VERY sure Hayao Miyazaki would like the fansubs of Nausicaa better than
he liked Warriors of the Wind.
Watch Sailor Moon episodes 45 and 46. Then watch the original version. THEN
tell me that there isn't a need for a fansub of these.
No commercial company is even thinking of releasing Macross: DYRL or the
three Sailor Moon movies. So your arguments really don't apply there.
As for fansubs depriving companies of profits, I know of at least one
fansubber (Arctic Animation) which immediately discontinues titles if
they are about to be released commercially. You must have REALLY offended
them.
Okay, I'll admit it. The only fansubs I've ever seen were Kiki's Delivery
Service and the Sailor Moon S movie, and they left me wishing for
commercial versions.
And do you know what? I rent many anime shows in their Cantonese versions.
While this is legal, the effect is still what you hate about fansubs: I'm
still depriving U.S. companies of money.
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <01bbc93c$7bebeae0$6705cfa9@pseanyip>,
Sean Yip <sea...@execpc.com> wrote:
>Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote in article
><55ak6a$j...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>...
>> That explains drugs...
>
>Comparing fansubs with drugs is not fair because, unlike drug dealers,
>fansubbers in general are not looking to profit from their works.
Regrettably, there exist bootleggers who leech off the works of the fansubbers
who are, though I prefer to think of them as a separate issue from the
fansubbers themselves.
As far as drugs are concerned, I spent enough on anime this past summer to
make me suspect that drugs would have been cheaper. =)
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <55ip9n$j...@aphex.direct.ca>, Cthulhu <patr...@Direct.CA> wrote:
>In article <55fv14$6...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>scream "they're a minority." Then you apply a stereotype. That's very
>honest of you.
I'll register as another "minority" member, then. Hey, wait, maybe that
means I can get some sort of grant from the government! Foreign cultural
exchange!! Yeah, that's the ticket! =)
Cthulhu
In article <55dh46$j...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>
>In article <01bbc7cb$b7ebe800$17320dcb@katsumi>, "David Geeves"
>>
>>There are claims that Video Girl Ai is too widely spread as a fansub
>>to be worthwhile releasing commercially. I'd buy it in a flash as a
>>sub. How many people with it already as a fansub would buy it?
>
>people who will just keep their fansubs and won't buy the real thing.
>Probably rationalizing that the licensed version was not the same as the
>fansub or something.
Give me Macross DYRL or one of the Sailor Moon movies. I'll rent it.
Try this. Go looking for fansubs of a show that was subtitled well by
a commercial company: say, The Wings of Honneamais or Ghost In The Shell.
You will very likely find none.
If you look at the selection of what fansubs are available, then the
majority of them are shows that were either never brought here or
translated very badly.
If the commercial companies did a good job of subtitling, then they would
have nothing to fear from fansubs.
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <55g03l$d...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Ryan Mathews <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <01bbc7cb$b7ebe800$17320dcb@katsumi> "David Geeves"
><a...@spirit.com.au> writes:
>>
>>to be worthwhile releasing commercially. I'd buy it in a flash as a
>>sub. How many people with it already as a fansub would buy it?
>
>I own copies of the fansubs.
In my case, I went after the Japanese LD's (almost totally laserrot free,
somehow...)
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <55ak6a$j...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>,
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>In article <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) writes:
>>
>>Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand.
>
>Yup. People want things for free/cheap whenever they can.
>The general philosophy is that it's allright to steal,
>as long as you can't get caught.
*smirk* That's correct as far as it goes, but it's definitely the whole
story behind fansubbing. In at least some cases, it's not only that fansubs
provide cheap access to a title, but that they can provide the _only_
reasonable access, at least initially. The average American person who likes
what he's seen of those Japanese cartoon thingies might not reasonably be
expected to stay atop the learning curve for what new, potentially
meritorious titles are coming out in Japan. Heck, despite reading Usenet,
subscribing to Dragon and Newtype, and trolling the Web, _I_ still miss
things occasionally. =)
>> 1. If a demand for a product exists, it will sell.
>That explains drugs...
It's sort of a fundamental concept to economics, kind of. =)
>> 2. There exists a demand for subtitled Anime.
>
>Very little demand, looking at market figures.
>But the demand is there, thus the fansubbers exist.
Hmmm....AnimEigo and USMC hasn't gone bankrupt yet. =) Really though: on
strictly economic principles, if subtitles weren't important to the commercial
companies, I suspect they still wouldn't be making them...
Cthulhu
Cthulhu
In article <55f1jr$2...@news.iastate.edu>, to...@iastate.edu says...
>I disagree. There is a demand for FREE Anime...not subbed.
>This is the reason why everyone hauls there VCRs to
>conventions, to friends houses, and to other various
>locations. They aren't trying to expand their horizons
>on Anime because you can do this by just watching the
>movie or tape once or by borrowing the tape. They do it
>to make a copy to keep. This means that they are
>copying just because it's cheaper than buying the real thing.
Then they would be doing the easiest thing: copying the commercial
versions, rather than looking for fansubs.
>>I am very tired of waiting months, if not years, between the
>>release of a dub and a sub. That is if the companies decide
>>to release a subtitle at all.
>
>Bah...try the original Japanese versions. You'd be
>surprised by how much you can pick up by watching
>the Anime and getting the right written material
>(like the manga or a companion movie art book).
Then you should be encouraging people to watch fansubs (or even
better, for <some> anime companies to do less editing), since they
are as close to the Japanese versions as one can get.
>Your identifying the wrong demand. They most want a cheaper
>translated Anime and fansubs fill this void. It's literally
>a black market.
Then why aren't they simply bootlegging commercially released anime?
>If you hypothesis where true, then fansubbers would be making
>dubs instead of subs. The demand for dubs is bigger than
>subs, but yet fan groups continue to sub. Why?
Because subtitling changes the anime less than dubbing does.
Cthulhu
In article <55ak6a$j...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com says...
>
>In article <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu
(Brad Orahood) writes:
>>
>>Fansubbers provide a service that is in demand.
>
>Yup. People want things for free/cheap whenever they can.
>The general philosophy is that it's allright to steal,
>as long as you can't get caught.
Correction. We want REAL versions that aren't butchered beyond
recognition. Or, alternately, we may also want shows from Japan
that no U.S. company has released.
Cthulhu
In article <55an52$l...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>
>In article <a1e7cc$17301...@news.comet.net>, tsu...@comet.net wrote:
>
>>There are two exceptions to this. I ordered some Ranma 1/2 in the
>>100's 'casue I don't feel like waiting till the year 2000 for VIz, and
>>I have DragonBall Z, originally 'casue it wasn't syndicated to my
>>area, and now that it is, to avoid the horrid dub.
>
>to your liking.
Ooh, flame-bait, eh? Using inflamatory words on purpose, not?
Seriously, though. How could it possibly be theft when the commercial
version of one show didn't even EXIST?
Ed Gorgen
In Article <55dghm$f...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com (Albert Wong) wrote:
>In article <55bf0i$5...@news.mysolution.com>, m...@mysolution.com wrote:
>> So they are huh? Lets try this...
>> I have all 101 episodes of Touch TV series on my LD and have subtitled
>>the first few (however poor the translation they are). I am technically
>>a fan subittler and the output is technically a "Fansub" eventhough it
>>is for my personal use. So, are fan subs illegal again?
>>
>
>yes
This article string is getting nowhere.. the man will never believe that fan
subs aren't illegal. Ignorance is bliss
Ed Gorgen ego...@earthlink.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Visit my home page:Saiyan-jin's Pride!
Filled with cool facts and stuff on DBZ & DBGT
and My DBZ FanFic- Doorway To Destiny!
http://home.earthlink.net/~cgorgen/epg.html
***************************************************
"I've already seen the light and power I've
created .. Now it's time ... time to be evil."
***************************************************
"I'm taking my life in my hands, and I'm
gonna do what's good for me!" - 2 Unlimited
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <55ddp5$i...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
Phillip Sral <she...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>And more recently, someone else stated that Fansubbing is saving the "Big
>Companies" in advertising cost. Let's see, even if a Fansubber either
>openly states either somewhere in the credits that "this title is also
>available subtitled from <Insert Big Company Name Here>", if someone who
>saw the fansub liked it, I believe they will more likely attempt to get a
>copy of that sub from the Fansubber at the scene. If the Fansubber does
>distribute, the U.S. Company that actually paid for the right to subtitle
>the anime in question has just lost a potential sale. Since advertising
>is done to INCREASE a company's sales figures, I think the arguement is a
>bit moot.
There's one slight problem with the above: most of the time that a fansub is
created, there _is_ no commercial release yet. Now, to their credit, most of
the fansubbers and fans I've known have stopped "trafficking" in a particular
title when a commercial firm announces it (if they didn't, I expect JAILED
or someone else would be trying harder to squash them). In fact, this is
one of the main reasons Viz has raised such a ruckus in fan circles: the
fansubbers followed their "ethics" and made way for them, but now Viz with its
glacial release schedule (and questionable quality) won't actually have the
commercial translations of some of its work ready for years to come. I take
the ill-will that Viz has earned itself as a sign that at least _something_
may be working right...
The question, as I take it, is this: if there _is_ no commercial translation
available in the U.S., is it better or worse for the Japanese firms for the
U.S. fans to have no access to the work? If the lack of translation means
that the potential U.S. fans wouldn't be buying the title anyway, then it is
hard to imagine how trading in subtitles could hurt them. One could try to
argue that the truly devoted fans would realize the intrinsic value of anime,
go out and LEARN Japanese, and buy straight from Japan anyway. From personal
experience, I would say that it takes a spark to germinate that interest in
a fan, and whether or not learning Japanese is in the cards, there must be
_some_ circulation of "accessible" anime before any significant number of
people in the U.S. would take heed.
>The Bottom Line is this:
>
>Fans who subtitle or dub can rationalize all they like, but the simple
>fact is that Fansubbing/dubbing for your own personal use (even to the
>extent of showing the completed work to friends) is NOT illegal.
>Distributing fansubbed/dubbed copies to those friends FOR PROFIT, or NOT
>FOR PROFIT is ILLEGAL.
According to law, certainly; and people should keep that in mind as they
interact with the fansub networks. Whether it's a law that should be
considered binding is up to the individual.
Cthulhu
In article <55ddg6$c...@dublin.bitwise.net>, ah...@capecod.net says...
>
>Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
> I would have to say that Software Sculptors does not fall under this
> description. They have a small amount of titles, put a lot of heart
> into each one, and release it on time. The Slayers sub is one of the
> best ones out there. Plus their prices are at the bare minimum. $19,95
> for a tape with 3 episodes? 4 for Dancougar. (120 min for $19.95? and
> subtitled. WOW!). If any fan can't afford that, then they're a cheap
> bastard. ;-) They sell their dubbs and subbs for the same low price,
> not like Manga and others with the $19.95 dub vs. the $29.95 sub that
> comes out 2 or 3 months later.
So how many fansubs have you seen of Slayers or Dancouger? None?
If the commercial companies did a better job of translating, then
there would be much less need for fansubs.
Cthulhu
In article <55dh46$j...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>
>In article <01bbc7cb$b7ebe800$17320dcb@katsumi>, "David Geeves"
<a...@spirit.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>to be worthwhile releasing commercially. I'd buy it in a flash as a
>>sub. How many people with it already as a fansub would buy it?
>
>people who will just keep their fansubs and won't buy the real thing.
>Probably rationalizing that the licensed version was not the same as the
>fansub or something.
If anyone commercially releases Macross: DYRL, I'll rent it.
If anyone commercially releases one of the Sailor Moon movies, I'll
rent it.
I personally would much rather watch an official version. But since
none exist, I'll have to settle for the fansubs.
Jello
Les Jenkins (Dr...@cris.com) wrote:
: That's a poor rationalization. The point remains that Ranma 1/2, of which the
: poster being responded to was talking about, isn't shown on TV in the U.S. and
: a company, Viz, has expended a substantial amount of money to license it for
: distribution here in the States. Viz, for all intents and purposes, owns the
: rights to the Ranma 1/2 series in the United States and what they do with it,
: whether it be dubbing, subbing, or syndicating it to various networks, is
: entirely up to them within the confines of the agreement they've made with the
: original copyright holders.
This is an entirly different situation. the post i responded to was
speaking of getting fansubs of Dragon Ball Z, which is currently in
sydication.
--
Jello
aka Aron Craig
Anime O-Tekku Treasurer.
gt5...@prism.gatech.edu
Les Jenkins
> Knowing Disney... you're right. I'm just saying here that fansub
>and fansub distribution are different things. Wow... you're really
>on to me, aren't you.
It's nothing personal against you per se, but I do have a strong sense that
the people involved in anime production and importation deserved to be
compensated for their hard work.
> I agree fansub distribution is more illegal than legal... but their
>motive is purer than those of profit-maximizing companies. The
>difference is that they are using their time to benefit anime fans.
>Whereas the commercial companies are trying to benefit themselves.
How much purer the motives of fansub distributors are is debateable. The idea
that commercial companies are only out to benefit themselves is also
debateable. Anyone who's had a chance to talk with Robert Woodhead, or read
one of the many interviews he's done, can tell he started AnimEigo for reasons
more than just to make money off of anime fans. He's happy he can make a
decent living at it, but that's not his only motivation. The only major import
house that comes close to being a "profit-maximizing company" as you put it is
Pioneer. The rest are relatively small companies in comparason.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Les Jenkins | Animecca: Anime Webzine (http://animecca.com/)
Dr...@cris.com | The Casual Otaku (http://www.cris.com/~Dream)
Les Jenkins
In article <55ip3m$j...@aphex.direct.ca>, patr...@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote:
>I'd like to welcome YOU, Albert, to the world of art.
Artists sell their works for thousands of dollars. It's a poor concept to use
as an argument.
>Well I'll accept that fansubs are illegal, your "fansubs are immoral"
>argument is REALLY weak once you think about it.
There's nothing weak about it. By distributing fansubs you're denying the
people who deserve to be paid for their hard work the compensation they are
due. That's stealing. Stealing is immoral.
>Consider:
>
>I'm VERY sure Hayao Miyazaki would like the fansubs of Nausicaa better than
>he liked Warriors of the Wind.
Perhaps he would and perhaps he wouldn't, but unless you've asked him and
gotten a reply then you can't say either way with any certainity. Still, it's
irrevelent unless Miyazaki decided to start giving his work away to fansubbers
to distribute for free.
>Watch Sailor Moon episodes 45 and 46. Then watch the original version. THEN
>tell me that there isn't a need for a fansub of these.
There's never a "need". There might be a desire, but it's hardly a need.
>No commercial company is even thinking of releasing Macross: DYRL or the
>three Sailor Moon movies. So your arguments really don't apply there.
That is also irrevelent. That could change. One of the companies could decide
to apply for the rights. Even if one never does, fansubs still rob the
original Japanese license holders of their just compensation.
>As for fansubs depriving companies of profits, I know of at least one
>fansubber (Arctic Animation) which immediately discontinues titles if
>they are about to be released commercially. You must have REALLY offended
>them.
Which is commendable of them, to a degree. How many series won't be done,
however, due to the abundance of fansubs already out there of which Arctic
Animation contributes to?
[...snip...]
>And do you know what? I rent many anime shows in their Cantonese versions.
>While this is legal, the effect is still what you hate about fansubs: I'm
>still depriving U.S. companies of money.
That doesn't bother me at all as long as the source you're getting them from
is licensed to put out their versions. Whether U.S. companies get the money or
Chinese companies get the money is not a concern as long as the copies bought
are legitimate licenses.
Les Jenkins
In article <55iob6$j...@aphex.direct.ca>, patr...@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote:
>So how many fansubs have you seen of Slayers or Dancouger? None?
Actually, at the last convention I attended, I saw several fansubs of Slayers
and Dancouger being proffered up at more than just the cost for the videotape.
Some of them were outright bootlegs of Software Sculptors' tapes, but the
others were definite fansubs.
>If the commercial companies did a better job of translating, then
>there would be much less need for fansubs.
There is no "need" for fansubs. What constitutes a "better job of translating"
is a subjective opinion considering how there is often stuff that just
doesn't translate well into English. AnimEigo tries to consult with the
original creators whenever there is a question about translation they're
having a tough time with. How much better of a job can you get than that?
Les Jenkins
>There's one slight problem with the above: most of the time that a fansub is
>created, there _is_ no commercial release yet. Now, to their credit, most of
>the fansubbers and fans I've known have stopped "trafficking" in a particular
>title when a commercial firm announces it (if they didn't, I expect JAILED
>or someone else would be trying harder to squash them). In fact, this is
>one of the main reasons Viz has raised such a ruckus in fan circles: the
>fansubbers followed their "ethics" and made way for them, but now Viz with its
>glacial release schedule (and questionable quality) won't actually have the
>commercial translations of some of its work ready for years to come. I take
>the ill-will that Viz has earned itself as a sign that at least _something_
>may be working right...
Whether or not the series in question has been picked up by an American
company is irrevelent. Fansubs of series not available here still steals
profits from the Japanese creators. When you buy an imported anime title
you're indirectly benefitting the original creators in terms of the royalities
that most companies pay to the original Japanese anime house.
>The question, as I take it, is this: if there _is_ no commercial translation
>available in the U.S., is it better or worse for the Japanese firms for the
>U.S. fans to have no access to the work? If the lack of translation means
>that the potential U.S. fans wouldn't be buying the title anyway, then it is
>hard to imagine how trading in subtitles could hurt them. One could try to
>argue that the truly devoted fans would realize the intrinsic value of anime,
>go out and LEARN Japanese, and buy straight from Japan anyway. From personal
>experience, I would say that it takes a spark to germinate that interest in
>a fan, and whether or not learning Japanese is in the cards, there must be
>_some_ circulation of "accessible" anime before any significant number of
>people in the U.S. would take heed.
It does still hurt the Japanese firms. The more fansubs that are available,
the less likely any import houses will license the series. There are several
series which haven't been touched because of that very reason.
Matsuura-kun
"Sean Yip" <sea...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>
>I tend to agree that anime might just be as
>addictive as drugs. Even a working person like me
>has a hard time paying
>for them. For this reason, I propose that the US
>government "must" impose
>a strict regulation on the anime market immediately
>in order to stop us
>fanatics from spending our life savings on anime.
>No one will be allowed
>to watch more than two hours of anime per month and you must obtain a
>license to make any anime purchase :).
>
Better yet, let's start having a channel which rotates showing
dubbed and subbed anime on TV...
=======================================================================
Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
PO Box 3054
Brown University VHS/SVHS Fansub Distribution Service Available
Providence, RI 02912 E-me for title list & ordering info
tel. (401) 863-4146
e-mail: Da...@brown.edu , Y...@brown.edu , Lawren...@brown.edu
=======================================================================
Personal Favourites Now:
Marmalade Boy * Tenku no Escaflowne * Fushigi Yuugi * Slamdunk
Les Jenkins
In article <55et0g$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Aldridge) wrote:
>How do you feel about those who rent out commercially available anime
>titles? It has the same evils of people not buying what they've already
>seen, copying what they rent, etc. The main difference is that fansubbers
>offer plenty of titles that you can't get (and understand) otherwise, act
>a lot quicker on titles that do eventually get picked up, and don't
>distribute what's commercially available.
It's no where near being the same evil. Renting a video is like going to the
movies. You pay your fare, you see it, you take it back. If you're unethical,
then you copy the tape while you have it at home.
>Seriously, if even the major companies in the anime business aren't
>complaining, and in some cases respect the interest and dedication of
>fansubbers, what's the problem?
How do you know that they're not complaining? I just bought Urusei Yatsura
Movie Number 4 yesterday and when I opened the box, low and behold, and small
card dropped out into my hand that discussed this whole issue.
AnimEigo wrote a very nice and short bit on why they're importing anime, what
they hope for in the future, how piracy negatively impacts the anime market
(by driving costs up), etc. Surprisingly, they fully endorse lending the tape
to your friends! They only asked that you don't copy it and give it away. I'll
bring the card in and type it in tomorrow.
Les Jenkins
In article <55g209$k...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan Mathews) wrote:
>Y'know, this point is so ridiculously moot that it astounds me that
>people still waste time arguing it. Fansubs aren't going away, and
>fans aren't going to stop obtaining them. As long as American anime
>companies...
>
>-- don't pick up titles
>-- refuse to release subs
>-- refuse to release LDs
>
>....fansubs will exist. Moral or immoral, the fans who pick them up
>don't give a damn. Some are indeed cheapos who don't want to pay their
>fair share, but some are just fans who aren't being served by the
>companies they're expected to support.
Hey, if you can live with being a thief, then more power to you. I don't have
a problem with people being thieves as long as they at least own up to what
they are, thieves. Instead, everyone tries to "justify" their actions as if
they had no choice in the matter or that they're somehow doing the commercial
companies a favor and that's just flat out B.S..
>Certainly no-one can accuse me of not paying my fair share. Quite
>frankly, I think I'm spending away my future on anime. I haven't
>obtained a fansub in years, mostly because I can see them at my club
>without having to own them. Nevertheless, I am considering getting a
>few, because I'm sick of waiting for titles that it seems will never be
>picked up, e.g. COMBUSTIBLE CAMPUS GUARDRESS. My conscience is clear,
>because I know that, should someone ever bring GUARDRESS out
>professionally, especially on LD, I'll buy it the moment it hits the
>shelves.
Of course, for every person who takes this approach that will be one more
reason for the commercial companies to never bring that title out over here.
>As for the argument that fansubs are preventing some titles from
>entering the market, I have to laugh. First companies say that subs
>don't sell, pushing the price up or refusing to release subs at all,
>then they turn around and tell us that these undesirable subs are
>pushing them out of the market?
They didn't say they don't sell. They said they didn't sell as well as dubs.
And it's the growing size of the dubbed half of the market which provides any
hope that some of the more prevaliant fansubs will ever be brought over.
>And as for the argument that fansubs out-compete pro releases because
>they're free, fansubs aren't *that* easy to get. They're only
>obtainable through the fan network, which, as the companies never tire
>of telling us, is only the tiniest portion of the market.
One need only go to the average sized convention in their area to pick up all
manner of fansubs from what I've seen.
Les Jenkins
In article <le15.250...@cornell.edu>, le...@cornell.edu (Lawrence Eng) wrote:
>The companies are stealing from us when they sell us something we can
>get for free by going to Japan, turning on our TVs, and recording.
You can't be robbed of something you don't own. Just because you could tape it
off of television in Japan, doesn't mean it's not being supported by it's
viewers indirectly (i.e. advertising sold for that time period). Even then,
taping it off of Japanese television doesn't make it yours.
I could tape the Highlander television series off of TV, but I've bought both
the first and second season box sets offered by the company. Why? High quality
copies with no commercials and extra footage. It was expensive, but it was
worth it to me. The fact that it was shown free on television, though, doesn't
empower anyone to copy it down, subtitled it into Japanese, and then sell it
in Japan.
>course, I understand that this isn't always the case, as many of the older
>shows are available to purchase in Japan. For the new shows, who is to say a
>bunch of friends and I can't spring 300 dollars for a new VCR, send it to
>Japan, and use our _remote_ control to make mass copies for each of us?
>This, of course, is an extreme analogy, but I hope you get my point. In a
>sense, we all contributed our share to the guys in Japan who are sitting in
>front of TVs making us our _personal_ copies. =)
That's a tricky question, but I'm willing to bet the courts, if it were
brought to trial, would side on it being a copyright violation (technically
even "lending" isn't legal, but most companies don't have a problem with
people lending videos to each other as long as money isn't exchanged in any
way).
>We're not "allowed" to record for our friends unless they are geographically
>capable of watching it at the time of the showing? Lets say I told my friend
>to copy Twin Peaks for me because I was out of town that week and couldn't
>watch it. Is he not allowed to make me a copy of his tape? If he isn't
>allowed, that's a ridiculous law. If he _is_ allowed ...
It would be illegal for him to copy his tape and give it to you, yes. He could
have you come over to his house and watch it without problems. And most
companies don't mind if he were to lend you the tape (meaning you will
eventually give it back).
>We all _potentially_ could have received the same broadcast in Japan. The
>American companies are only taking advantage of the fact that most Americans
>cannot, and they are charging for the service because they want a profit.
>I don't need them; I'd rather get fansubs. If the kids in Japan don't have
>to pay for it yet, why should I?
They do pay for it, indirectly. Just as kids here indirectly pay for Tiny
Toons and Animaniacs. Buy purchasing products advertised during the show. And,
surprise surprise, when a television series ends in Japan it often comes out
on video and, you won't believe this, the kids then have to pay for the tapes!
>This is an interesting point. Does this mean that since I can't get Star
>Trek easily here at school, it would be illegal for my parents or friends in
>California to make copies of their taped episodes and mail them to me?
Technically that would be illegal. Again, some companies don't mind it too
much as long as it's one copy for a family or friend and no money exchanges
hands.
>Legally, am I forced to wait until Paramount puts the tapes out on video? I
>_could_ go back to California and watch the stuff for free, but I'm stuck
>here at school. Where does the law start and stop? Believe it or not, the
>law _does_ have grey areas. If everything was clear cut, we wouldn't have
>lawyers duking it out.
The law only gets grey when you get into issues of "personal and educational
use".
>Thus...
>I _could_ go to Japan, turn on the TV and then watch the stuff for free.
>Alas, I am stuck here again. Is it illegal for my friends in Asia to make me
>copies of stuff off on TV _which they get for free_? It depends on the
>nebulous term "personal use." Also, who is losing money here? The airline
>companies and possibly the advertisers.
And the original Japanese creators.
>Also, since it is the advertisers who pay for the airtime, I guess it would
>only be fair for the commercials to be left on the tapes. I don't mind
>Japanese commericals.
Unless you actually buy something from one of those companies in Japan then
the presence of the commercials is a moot point.
>My point: certain fansubs are not as illegal as others, if at all. Are most
>fansub distributors breaking the law regarding stuff available
>commerically in Japan? Not American law, but international copyright law.
One and the same. The U.S. signed that treaty along with the rest of the
countries involved.
>The FBI won't come knocking in your door, but the Japanese companies could
>prosecute if they wanted to. Is fansub distribution harmful or helpful to
>anime as a whole, and how do anime creators feel about it? I'd say fansubs
>help the industry more than they hurt it, and they were especially
>important during the dark ages of American anime fandom before Animeigo,
>USMC, and the rest. Tori Miki (who wrote the new Patlabor movie screenplay,
>and friend of Oshii and Kawamori), for one, said that he thinks fansubs are
>okay as long they aren't distributed against commercially released stuff,
>which is the general attitude of most distributors nowadays.
Most of the above is just opinion. Unless you've talked to most of the
distributors nowadays then it's hard to make any claims as to how they feel
about fansubs. This has intrigued me, however, and I think I'll try to contact
most of the major import houses on this topic for my next column in Animecca.
>Fansub distribution is usually illegal in terms of breaking international
>copyright law. So is most distibuted fanfic, fan art, doujinshi, manga
>translations, and any number of fandom related things, including mass
>showings of anime without asking for permission. Fandom would be sad indeed
>without any of these things. They know it in Japan, and American companies
>ought to know it in the US. Some people and companies do, actually.
Some of those things do more or less damage than others. In terms of Fanfic,
doujinshi, and fan art the damage is less because it's original work on the
part of the people putting it out and not the original Japanese anime houses.
Japanese companies do seem to be very laid back about those things unlike,
say, Disney, who will jump on you the moment you use one of their characters
without permission. When you move into manga translations and fansubs,
however, you're now affecting someone else's hard work and the damage becomes
more severe.
Les Jenkins
It does exist, it's just not licensed by anyone in this country. If it didn't
exist then a fansub would be impossible (there'd be nothing to fansub). Just
because an American company isn't losing money on it doesn't mean that someone
isn't.
David Geeves
> If anyone commercially releases Macross: DYRL, I'll rent it.
This was released in Australia at least by Kiseki. I've heard what
kind of job they did on it. Frankly, I'm not going anywhere near it.
When a company does such a shoddy job using crappy REUSED tapes,
they deserve all the scorn the fans can direct at them. I've learned
in the past not to purchase *any* of their titles and as far as I'm
concerned, they've had their chance and lost it.
Rent it? You wouldn't tape it then would you? >;)
Lawrence Eng
Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins) writes:
>In article <le15.250...@cornell.edu>, le...@cornell.edu (Lawrence Eng)
>wrote:
>>The companies are stealing from us when they sell us something we can
>>get for free by going to Japan, turning on our TVs, and recording.
>You can't be robbed of something you don't own. Just because you could tape it
>off of television in Japan, doesn't mean it's not being supported by it's
>viewers indirectly (i.e. advertising sold for that time period). Even then,
>taping it off of Japanese television doesn't make it yours.
Okay, "robbed" was a bad way of putting it. Being "ripped off" is a better
term.
I address the advertising issue below.
>I could tape the Highlander television series off of TV, but I've bought both
>the first and second season box sets offered by the company. Why? High quality
>copies with no commercials and extra footage. It was expensive, but it was
>worth it to me. The fact that it was shown free on television, though, doesn't
>empower anyone to copy it down, subtitled it into Japanese, and then sell it
>in Japan.
Good for you for buying the commerical tapes. The fact that commercial tapes
exist makes it "illegal" for you copy off of TV and then distribute the
tapes in Japan. Clearly, though, in the case of certain important fansubs,
commercial versions don't even exist in Japan. When they _do_ become
available in Japan, that's when fansubs become "illegal." When they become
commercially available in the United States, that's when many fansubbers
stop distribution. Piraters/bootleggers generally don't care at all, and
will sell stuff illegally with no concern whatsoever of the damage they're
causing. Don't mistake the morals of bootleggers with those of fansubbers.
>>course, I understand that this isn't always the case, as many of the older
>>shows are available to purchase in Japan. For the new shows, who is to say a
>>bunch of friends and I can't spring 300 dollars for a new VCR, send it to
>>Japan, and use our _remote_ control to make mass copies for each of us?
>>This, of course, is an extreme analogy, but I hope you get my point. In a
>>sense, we all contributed our share to the guys in Japan who are sitting in
>>front of TVs making us our _personal_ copies. =)
>That's a tricky question, but I'm willing to bet the courts, if it were
>brought to trial, would side on it being a copyright violation (technically
>even "lending" isn't legal, but most companies don't have a problem with
>people lending videos to each other as long as money isn't exchanged in any
>way).
I didn't know that lending isn't legal. [Not that it's going to stop me from
borrowing tapes.]
About the courts, that's your opinion and it is debatable, but I'm
glad you've realized that this isn't so clear-cut an issue.
Most fansubbers, to truly be called fansubbers, do not make any money from
their distribution. Groups that actually make a profit are those groups
shunned and scorned by fans. We call them bootleggers. You'll find them in
most Chinatowns.
>>We're not "allowed" to record for our friends unless they are
geographically>>capable of watching it at the time of the showing? Lets say
I told my friend >>to copy Twin Peaks for me because I was out of town that
week and couldn't >>watch it. Is he not allowed to make me a copy of his
tape? If he isn't >>allowed, that's a ridiculous law. If he _is_ allowed ...
>It would be illegal for him to copy his tape and give it to you, yes. He could
>have you come over to his house and watch it without problems. And most
>companies don't mind if he were to lend you the tape (meaning you will
>eventually give it back).
Okay.
Like I said, ridiculous law if you consider the example I gave above.
Why don't the companies mind lending? They're losing money here! That's one
potentially lost sale when the commercial release comes out! Heck, maybe
they won't even bother with the commercial release since distribution is so
"widespread!" People who lend tapes are evil?!?!? =P
Maybe the companies realize that lending or making one copy for
your family or a friend actually helps to promote the show and will make it
more likely that they'll buy the show when it comes out on video.
Maybe.
>>We all _potentially_ could have received the same broadcast in Japan. The
>>American companies are only taking advantage of the fact that most Americans
>>cannot, and they are charging for the service because they want a profit.
>>I don't need them; I'd rather get fansubs. If the kids in Japan don't have
>>to pay for it yet, why should I?
>They do pay for it, indirectly. Just as kids here indirectly pay for Tiny
>Toons and Animaniacs. Buy purchasing products advertised during the show. And,
>surprise surprise, when a television series ends in Japan it often comes out
>on video and, you won't believe this, the kids then have to pay for the tapes!
The kids don't have to buy the tapes and advertised goods if they don't want
to. That's the nature of advertising.
>>This is an interesting point. Does this mean that since I can't get Star
>>Trek easily here at school, it would be illegal for my parents or friends in
>>California to make copies of their taped episodes and mail them to me?
>Technically that would be illegal. Again, some companies don't mind it too
>much as long as it's one copy for a family or friend and no money exchanges
>hands.
I'm glad the companies are so reasonable. No money changing hands? No
problem. I'm not out to make a profit, after all. Neither are fansubbers.
[snip]
>>Thus...
>>I _could_ go to Japan, turn on the TV and then watch the stuff for free.
>>Alas, I am stuck here again. Is it illegal for my friends in Asia to make me
>>copies of stuff off on TV _which they get for free_? It depends on the
>>nebulous term "personal use." Also, who is losing money here? The airline
>>companies and possibly the advertisers.
>And the original Japanese creators.
It was on TV for free, remember? They were already paid. Worry about the
advertisers (see below).
>>Also, since it is the advertisers who pay for the airtime, I guess it would
>>only be fair for the commercials to be left on the tapes. I don't mind
>>Japanese commericals.
>Unless you actually buy something from one of those companies in Japan then
>the presence of the commercials is a moot point.
Advertising, in general, is "a moot point" unless you actually buy the
products. Advertisers know this, but that's what advertising is about.
People are persuaded to buy products; they aren't coerced. The kids in Japan
aren't obligated to buy what they see on TV. Neither am I. Does that make
advertising useless? No.
Besides, who said I can't buy things from Japan? It's not that hard.
>>My point: certain fansubs are not as illegal as others, if at all. Are most
>>fansub distributors breaking the law regarding stuff available
>>commerically in Japan? Not American law, but international copyright law.
>One and the same. The U.S. signed that treaty along with the rest of the
>countries involved.
American law doesn't care about fansubs if you read the clause in the Berne
Act that piraters have started quoting to justify that their actions aren't
"illegal" (do a web search for details or e-mail me). If that clause wasn't
made up by imaginative piraters pretending to be legitimate, then what they
are doing is _not_ illegal according to the United States. However, these
guys (who sell bootleg HK movies and Japanese LD versions of American
movies) completely neglect to mention international copyright law.
So yes, there is an important distinction between international copyright
law and American law. It's a hotly debated issue, and is far from being
resolved.
>>The FBI won't come knocking in your door, but the Japanese companies
>>could prosecute if they wanted to. Is fansub distribution harmful or
>>helpful to anime as a whole, and how do anime creators feel about it? I'd
>>say fansubs help the industry more than they hurt it, and they were
>>especially important during the dark ages of American anime fandom before
>>Animeigo, USMC, and the rest. Tori Miki (who wrote the new Patlabor movie
>>screenplay, and friend of Oshii and Kawamori), for one, said that he
>>thinks fansubs are okay as long they aren't distributed against
>>commercially released stuff, which is the general attitude of most
>>distributors nowadays.
>Most of the above is just opinion. Unless you've talked to most of the
>distributors nowadays then it's hard to make any claims as to how they feel
>about fansubs. This has intrigued me, however, and I think I'll try to contact
>most of the major import houses on this topic for my next column in Animecca.
Yes, _some_ of that is my opinion (read it carefully), and I will
stand by it until I am shown good evidence that my opinion is incorrect.
Many people seem to disagree with your opinions. I hope that people on both
sides of the debate have something to think about. It is _not_ a black-and-
white issue! It is _not_ just a legal issue, and it is _not_ just about
money, even though one has to have a realistic view of both the legal and
economic aspects of fansubbing. The closer one looks at the laws and the
economic big picture, one will find that the situation is very complicated.
Fans have to make tough choices.
BTW: When I said "distributors," I was referring to fansub distributors, not
the "major import houses."
>>Fansub distribution is usually illegal in terms of breaking international
>>copyright law. So is most distibuted fanfic, fan art, doujinshi, manga
>>translations, and any number of fandom related things, including mass
>>showings of anime without asking for permission. Fandom would be sad indeed
>>without any of these things. They know it in Japan, and American companies
>>ought to know it in the US. Some people and companies do, actually.
>Some of those things do more or less damage than others. In terms of Fanfic,
>doujinshi, and fan art the damage is less because it's original work on the
>part of the people putting it out and not the original Japanese anime houses.
>Japanese companies do seem to be very laid back about those things unlike,
>say, Disney, who will jump on you the moment you use one of their characters
>without permission. When you move into manga translations and fansubs,
>however, you're now affecting someone else's hard work and the damage becomes
>more severe.
More severe in your opinion. I hope you aren't implying that fansubbers,
in _addition_ to breaking international copyright law at times, are also
trying to destroy the anime industry. Most of the fansubbers I know are
supportive of the anime industry, which is why they don't try to make a
profit off of their fansubs.
"By the fans, for the fans, not for sale or rent."
I'm glad you admit this isn't a clear cut issue (regarding fanfic,
doujinshi, fansubs, etc). In other posts, you've come off sounding a bit
extremist in your views.
-Lawrence
Les Jenkins
>Regrettably, there exist bootleggers who leech off the works of the fansubbers
>who are, though I prefer to think of them as a separate issue from the
>fansubbers themselves.
Indeed. And that's where a lot of the damage comes from. Even if the
fansubbers responsible for the sub aren't selling at a profit, they have no
control over what those they sell to do with their fansubs later.
>As far as drugs are concerned, I spent enough on anime this past summer to
>make me suspect that drugs would have been cheaper. =)
I can certainly relate to you on that point. I just blew $80 on the last two
El-Hazard and three Tenchi Muyo tapes myself this past weekend.
Jason Chu
Les Jenkins (Dr...@cris.com) wrote:
: In article <55ipsb$8...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard) wrote:
: >Regrettably, there exist bootleggers who leech off the works of the fansubbers
: >who are, though I prefer to think of them as a separate issue from the
: >fansubbers themselves.
The anime community is pretty good about fansubs, and this does not
include bootleggers. Once a title has a US license, you often see it
pulled from the fansubbers library.
Fansubbing isn't exactly legal, but if a title theoretically will never
get a US license, I can't really see how it hurts sales. The only sales
that are lost would be direct imports of LD's and this is really really
small and negligable.
Note 'theoretically'. One problem lies in the fact that once a title DOES
get
a US license then the loss of potential sales is possible. For example,
let's say I saw IRIA fansubbed first. Now I like IRIA, was happy to see
it, but now that I've seen it do I like it enough to buy it from USMC?
Sorry, nope. However, what if I never saw it? Maybe I would have been so
gungho to watch IRIA that I would have bought it from USMC. That's the
downer, so it's just a fine line we tread.
I guess this is not a good time to say I am DYING to see the last three
episodes of DNA-hint hint, anyone? :)
Aaron Newton
Les Jenkins (Dr...@cris.com) wrote:
> Every fansub, whether a profit is made on it or not, is money Viz won't see.
Unless the fansub user buys the Viz version. The more ethical fansub users
do this ... unfortunately they are few and far between.
-Aaron
--
Aaron Newton <*> 1:1 * After Doctor Who on Fox:
amne...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu * Me: 27 years...
http://www.spd.louisville.edu/~amnewt01* Mom: Huh? 27 years? For What?
IRC: FigNewton * Me: Well for nothing apparently
Lawrence Eng
amne...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Aaron Newton) writes:
>Les Jenkins (Dr...@cris.com) wrote:
>> Every fansub, whether a profit is made on it or not, is money Viz won't see.
And this is money Viz is not necessarily entitled to due to any number of
circumstances. If I buy the import LD cheap in Korea, or somewhere else, Viz
is losing money. Too bad for them. Nobody _has_ to get stuff from Viz and
other American companies. They are merely offering a service to people who
don't have a choice but to buy from them (meaning they don't have other
access to anime and they _want_ to own it). Luckily, some of us can record
stuff off of Japanese TV for free, or have other sources which are legal or
debatably legal, or even illegal, which we try to avoid if possible. (Nobody
said it was easy being a conscientous fan).
>Unless the fansub user buys the Viz version. The more ethical fansub users
>do this ... unfortunately they are few and far between.
So does the responsibility lie with the fansub distributors or the unethical
fansub users?
-Lawrence
Chae An
In article <55cil9$4...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins) wrote:
[Albert Wong said...]
>>That's a poor rationalization.
Unless you can make a convincing case that none of the fansub
owner will buy a commercial release, I will not be able to accept this 1
to 1 damage ratio. Fansubs probably do damage the commercial market in
reduced sales in many cases, but yours is a too harsh, and totally
unsupportable, generalization.
>>the copyright law. Right or wrong, that's the way things are.
>>Steal if you must, but at least have the responsibility to own
>>up to what it is you're doing.
This I agree with 100%.
> If it's on TV and people record it, then commercial companies
>should sue VCR machines for having the record function. The deal
You do realize that this had happened already? I think it was
Sony that got sued in early 80's. Sony won, of course.
>with most copyright says that if it is recorded for private home
>usage, there is no problem. Fansubs are not illegal. They are a
>creative project conducted for private use. Fansub distribution is
>another story. That should be on a grey area.
Not quite. You are misunderstanding the copyright laws. What you
may be refering to is a 'time shift' theory, a tenuous one in broadcasted
programs. In tapes and LD sales, that has no application. Unless
authorized specifically, you do not have any right to make backup copies,
even if you wish to argue that a fansub is a 'backup' copy.
Fansub distribution is not a grey area; it is outright illegal. I
want to hear how you will justify the 'grey' label.
> Do you know how much advertising costs fansub distributors are
>saving commercial companies? The world of anime grows in America
Let me turn that question back at you. How much? You don't know,
do you? You can just throw around vague guesses, right? But no concrete
figures, right? Seems to me that this is a rather fragile argument upon
which to hinge your argument.
>and that can only be a plus for commercial companies... as long as
>the fansubs are not any titles whose rights are purchased by
>commercial companies.
Realistically, is that true though? Quite a few fansub titles
have been purchased at later date by domestic anime companies. It isn't
as if we can impose a time limit under which domestic companies must act
to acquire a new series. The domestic companies are the ones doing it 'by
the book.' They shouldn't bear the additional burden of acting under a
limit imposed by a group who wish to act illegally.
> If you want to talk about stealing, don't just talk legally.
>What about the fans who are robbed of an opportunity to watch enjoyable
>anime? Fans are robbed of the opportunity because commercial companies
>want to make a profit off fans who just want to be entertained.
>NOW who's the leach, I ask?
This would be much more compelling if you can link this supposed
'damage' to a recognizable right. If not, it's just a hissy fit of a
child. The opportunities are there; you can buy the Japanese copy and
obtain a translation, by paying for them. If you aver that route, then
the question is reduced to convenience and cost, or you're just too lazy
and cheap. Some right. This is the feeblest argument the fansub
supporters can use. I am a firm supporter of fansubs and I would never
use this decrepit argument.
> How come fansubbers work at such a fast rate and
>commercial companies are so slow? Who puts more heart into it?
>Obviously those who love their project as opposed to those who
>want to make mad profit.
If you had a point in here relating to the argument at hand, I
missed it. Are you suggesting that this dedication imparts some right,
perhaps by divine hands, to the fansubbers and distributors? Accept that
the fansub activity is illegal, work within the self-imposed limitations,
try to minimize the damage to the people who hold the right, and fansub
with dedication you spoke of. Fansubbers should do that; instead of
wasting time sprouting idiotic sentimentalist bullshit attempting to
justify the unjustifiable in this dark corner of a small newsgroup.
> Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
--C h a e
--
cha...@hom.net cha...@best.com
http://www.best.com/~chaean
Check Anime/Manga/Games for sale at:
http://www.best.com/~chaean/Anime/bigsale.shtml
Matsuura-kun
patr...@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote:
>WRONG! At least one, Arctic Animation, will immediately discontinue a
>title once there is even a possibility that some commerical company
>may release it.
>
And that has become fansubber ethics for other fansubbers (not all,
though...)
=======================================================================
Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
Sean Yip
Mark L. Neidengard <mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in article
> Sean Yip <sea...@execpc.com> wrote:
> >Comparing fansubs with drugs is not fair because, unlike drug dealers,
> >fansubbers in general are not looking to profit from their works.
>
> Regrettably, there exist bootleggers who leech off the works of the
fansubbers
> who are, though I prefer to think of them as a separate issue from the
> fansubbers themselves.
>
> As far as drugs are concerned, I spent enough on anime this past summer
to
> make me suspect that drugs would have been cheaper. =)
> --
I fully realize that there are exceptions in almost every situations.
That's why I used said 'in general'.
As to your last comment, I tend to agree that anime might just be as
addictive as drugs. Even a working person like me has a hard time paying
for them. For this reason, I propose that the US government "must" impose
a strict regulation on the anime market immediately in order to stop us
fanatics from spending our life savings on anime. No one will be allowed
to watch more than two hours of anime per month and you must obtain a
license to make any anime purchase :).
Sean
Sea Wasp
> AnimEigo wrote a very nice and short bit on why they're importing anime, what
> they hope for in the future, how piracy negatively impacts the anime market
> (by driving costs up), etc.
Piracy and fansubbing are somewhat different. Piracy is a deliberate
use of a commercial property (not your own) for profit. In the case
of most fansubbers, they're doing it for the fun of the thing.
As to whether the fansubs hurt the industry, I doubt that ANYONE
has any CLEAR CUT answers to the question. Your contention that
"title x hasn't been picked up because of fansubs" can only be
good evidence if ALL heavily-fansubbed material has never been
picked up for commercial distribution. As a counterexample, I'd
offer Tenchi. The fansubs of Tenchi Muyo! were high quality, very
pretty, certainly good enough to be "threats" if the effect you're
postulating is at all a reliable one... but TM is now a widely
available commercial product. AH! My Goddess! is another similar
example. I could go on and on and on.
Conversely, there's PLENTY of material that's NEVER been fansubbed
to my knowledge and it seems unlikely that it ever will be picked
up commercially; as an example, Saint Seiya. I believe ONE of the
movies was subtitled, but I've never seen it. The actual series?
I've been looking for a subtitled version for years. In this case,
I find it hard to imagine that there's going to be much damage
done to ANYONE by fansubbing it. Hell, I'm not even sure it's still
AVAILABLE in Japan, in which case I couldn't even pay the originators
money even if I wanted to. (I don't count the French/Spanish/etc.
dubbed versions, since double layers of translation will almost
certainly create major messups.). Is Space Adventurer Cobra (the
series) subtitled and available here? And is it likely to be?
My own PERSONAL feeling is that overall fansubbing is more likely
to HELP the commercial industry, **AS LONG AS** the fansubbers do
the honorable thing and drop their fansub product as soon as the
commercial companies announce that they've acquired the license.
Free advertising of your product rarely hurts anyone. A fansub can
be considered the equivalent of beta-testing. There's still PLENTY
of people who want the Real Thing.
Similar issues are involved with fanfic, and it's my opinion that
the US companies have been overall about as stupidly boneheaded
about THAT as possible. Japanese companies not only don't tend to
PROSECUTE people who do fanfic, they even permit it to be sold...
and use it as a barometer of popularity. They even RECRUIT some
of the most popular writers and artists for Doujinshi. THIS
is an intelligent approach: encourage your fans to immerse themselves
in your product. They'll always want more. The talented ones will
work for you. How can you possibly LOSE?
Les Jenkins
In article <55io4q$j...@aphex.direct.ca>, patr...@Direct.CA (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <55g0o9$6...@nntp1.best.com>, alb...@best.com says...
>>
>
>>US company wanting to license anime from Japanese company and is willing to
>>spend $100K to license a title. US company notices anime fans in US already
>>has fansub version. US company decides not to license. Japanese company
>loses
>>$100K in license fees.
>
>WRONG! At least one, Arctic Animation, will immediately discontinue a
>title once there is even a possibility that some commerical company
>may release it.
Are the folks at Arctic Animation psychic? How do they know if a company is
planning on picking up a series before the company officially announces it
(and they hardly ever officially announce it until it's a done deal).
Cthulhu
In article <55ka5j$d...@herald.concentric.net>, Dr...@cris.com says...
>>WRONG! At least one, Arctic Animation, will immediately discontinue a
>>title once there is even a possibility that some commerical company
>>may release it.
>
>Are the folks at Arctic Animation psychic? How do they know if a company is
>planning on picking up a series before the company officially announces it
>(and they hardly ever officially announce it until it's a done deal).
Gee. Why don't you ask them? They have a phone number, an E-mail address
and no less than three web pages. They have a LONG list of shows that are
about to be discontinued. They seem overcautious too: Laputa and the Sailor
Moon R and S movies are on the list. Also check out the list of shows
that they have ALREADY discontinued.
Cthulhu
In article <55k90o$d...@herald.concentric.net>, Dr...@cris.com says...
>>No commercial company is even thinking of releasing Macross: DYRL or the
>>three Sailor Moon movies. So your arguments really don't apply there.
>
>That is also irrevelent. That could change. One of the companies could
>decide to apply for the rights.
Until that happens, fansubs are necessary.
>Even if one never does, fansubs still rob
>the original Japanese license holders of their just compensation.
Really? How many people are going to see the Japanese versions if
they can't understand it?
Those that can understand it, BTW, would not be watching fansubs.
>Which is commendable of them, to a degree. How many series won't be done,
>however, due to the abundance of fansubs already out there of which Arctic
>Animation contributes to?
That never happens. Ranma, Sailor Moon and Dragonball were all widely-
fansubbed before the English, commercial versions were done.
Cthulhu
In article <55k9kk$d...@herald.concentric.net>, Dr...@cris.com says...
>Whether or not the series in question has been picked up by an American
>company is irrevelent. Fansubs of series not available here still steals
>profits from the Japanese creators. When you buy an imported anime title
>you're indirectly benefitting the original creators in terms of the
>royalities that most companies pay to the original Japanese anime house.
NOBODY will buy a Japanese version if they couldn't understand it.
And BTW, fansubbers do give money to the Japanese companese companies:
when they buy the LD's.
>It does still hurt the Japanese firms. The more fansubs that are available,
>the less likely any import houses will license the series. There are several
>series which haven't been touched because of that very reason.
Ranma, Sailor Moon and Dragonball were all widely-fansubbed before
their commercial releases came out.
I don't think I need to mention that some of the most widely-fansubbed
shows of all (Nausicaa, Laputa, Pom Poko, Only Yesterday, Porco
Rosso, Whispers of the Heart) are about to be commercially-released
by none other than Disney.
Cthulhu
In article <egorgen.1...@news.earthlink.net>, ego...@earthlink.net
says...
>This article string is getting nowhere.. the man will never believe that fan
>subs aren't illegal. Ignorance is bliss
Actually, fansubs are illegal.
I can accept that when I'm watching them.
Cory Patton
<549d0u$u...@news.Hawaii.Edu> <5582sk$7...@mark.ucdavis.edu> <558nh5$b...@news1-alterdial.uu.net> <558rcu$j...@cocoa.brown.edu>
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Distribution:
damn, you guys make me sick. First of all DUBS SUCK!! If your gonna make:
em at least get voice actors that give a damn! Secondly, I just have one:
title that will justify fan subbing for years to come: Street Fighter Two:
the MOvie! Has anyone else seen this after the americna version was made?:
Talk about a peice of shit!:
Matsuura-kun (Y...@brown.edu) wrote:
: fpah...@connectnet.com (frank paharik) wrote:
: >szb...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Brad Orahood) wrote:
: >
: >>Jeffrey P Gaskell (jgas...@Hawaii.Edu) wrote:
: >>: lc...@cornell.edu wrote:
: >>:
: >>: : Fan-subs undermine our business. Back when all you could
: >>: : get was poor quality copies taped off TV, you could at
: >>: : least argue there was still a reason for fan-sub. There are
: >>: : several titles my company is currently considering but would
: >>: : not release because we wouldn't make back our investment on
: >>: : it. And the reason is because of the fan-subbers.
: >>:
: >
: >Wrong! You undermine your own buisness. I have been an anime
: >collector for more than 4 years and I can tell you that the only
: >reason your videos do not sell is their lack of quality. Most of the
: >industry has the attitude of "make it and they will but it".
: >So the moral of the story is, "do a good job and people will
: >buy your product"
:
:
: Yup... it is SO OBVIOUS that the commercial company guy above is
: interested in profits. Don't you see fans just want some good anime?
:
:
:
: =======================================================================
: Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
: PO Box 3054
: Brown University VHS/SVHS Fansub Distribution Service Available
: Providence, RI 02912 E-me for title list & ordering info
: tel. (401) 863-4146
: e-mail: Da...@brown.edu , Y...@brown.edu , Lawren...@brown.edu
: =======================================================================
: Personal Favourites Now:
: Marmalade Boy * Tenku no Escaflowne * Fushigi Yuugi * Slamdunk
:
:
--
Ryan Mathews
In <55k90o$d...@herald.concentric.net> Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins)
writes:
>By distributing fansubs you're denying the people who deserve to be
>paid for their hard work the compensation they are due.
This is only true if the anime in question is being sold professionally
in the U.S. I don't accept the "buy the import and learn Japanese
argument". Imports are for hard-core collectors, not casual fans.
That's why they can charge upwards of $90 a disc and still make a
business of it. I doubt my watching fansubs is going to put importers
out of business. On the contrary, fansubbers buy a lot of the imported
discs. Our own young fansubbing operation here in Akron counts on
imported laserdiscs to provide source material.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com "Sayonara to intrusive noise/
SnailMail: 401 Mortimer Drive #410 No more childish play and no more toys"
Bedford OH, 44146 -- Sharon Apple, "Information High"
Ryan Mathews
In <55kv6p$2...@orion.cybercom.net> elha...@cybercom.net (Jason Chu)
writes:
>For example, let's say I saw IRIA fansubbed first. Now I like IRIA,
>was happy to see it, but now that I've seen it do I like it enough to
>buy it from USMC? Sorry, nope. However, what if I never saw it?
>Maybe I would have been so gungho to watch IRIA that I would have
>bought it from USMC. That's the downer, so it's just a fine line we
>tread.
This argument doesn't really apply. All companies I know of allow
clubs to show their tapes at meetings. Their hope is that you will
like something enough to buy it, but the risk is that you may be turned
off to something you were planning to buy.
Matsuura-kun
cha...@best.com (Chae An) wrote:
>In article <55cil9$4...@cocoa.brown.edu>,
>Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>>Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins) wrote:
>>
>>>Every fansub, whether a profit is made on it or not, is money
>>>Viz won't see. Money which they are legally entitled to under
>
> Unless you can make a convincing case that none of the fansub
>owner will buy a commercial release, I will not be able to accept this 1
>to 1 damage ratio. Fansubs probably do damage the commercial market in
>reduced sales in many cases, but yours is a too harsh, and totally
>unsupportable, generalization.
>
>>>the copyright law. Right or wrong, that's the way things are.
>>>Steal if you must, but at least have the responsibility to own
>>>up to what it is you're doing.
>
> This I agree with 100%.
>illegal. I want to hear how you will justify the 'grey' label.
OK, I'm not saying it's not illegal. It is illegal. Plain and
simple. I am just saying that by contract of international copyright, it
is illegal. But in actual fact, Japanese companies have not
outrightly covered American customers and America is not in its
geographic definition of market just makes me question what the whole
contract was for... political reasons, nee?
>> Do you know how much advertising costs fansub distributors are
>>saving commercial companies? The world of anime grows in America
>
> Let me turn that question back at you. How much?
I'm sorry, I don't know... and I am guessing (though I think it may
be a good guess). I don't pretend to be presenting a great argument.
Like all, I am trying to learn. I am throwing out ideas for people to
ponder over, not trying to be self-righteous or anything. If I came off
that way, I'm sorry. I do not want to make this a debate test, but a
space for discussion. So let's hear your thoughts on the subject rather
than attempt to start some kind of flame war. I'm sure I'd lose since my
English is not as good.
>Accept that the fansub activity is illegal, work within the
>self-imposed limitations, try to minimize the damage to the
>people who hold the right, and fansub with dedication you
>spoke of. Fansubbers should do that; instead of
>wasting time sprouting idiotic sentimentalist bullshit attempting to
>justify the unjustifiable in this dark corner of a small newsgroup.
Chae, I am not trying to justify fansubs nor do I deny that it is
illegal. I come from a world where copyrights do not exist. I know
fansubs would be illegal in US, Singapore and no problem in Hong Kong,
Indonesia and Taiwan (all various places where I live depending on
where my parents work)... so unlike most of you US residents, I have it
in my mind that copyright is not so illegal and depends on where you are.
It seems laws itself vary depends on where you are. In America, yes,
fansubs are illegal. But when I return to Singapore and cross the border
over to Jurong, Malaysia there are the nasty bootleggers who outrightly
sell fansubs openly without a care in the world about laws or even having
to hide from laws.
Now about the harsh use of "idiotic sentimentalist bullshit"...
seems like you might be attempting a flame war... please, you were just
complaining about my "hissing like a child"... please don't go in this
direction.
My initial response was NOT started because I wanted to justify
fansubs being legal. I am a great appreciator of fansubbers and their
efforts, and this one guy was making them out to be the lowest rats in
this world... I just thought he was a bit harsh and wanted to counter
him... but in NO way was trying to justify that it is actually legal in
America. (Except that I really thought private fansubbing was illegal
and only fansub distribution was illegal)
But then again, how many people really drank beer under the age of
21? Yup.. being legal is always right, nee?
=======================================================================
Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
Ryan Mathews
In <55k9kk$d...@herald.concentric.net> Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins)
writes:
>Whether or not the series in question has been picked up by an
>American company is irrevelent. Fansubs of series not available here
>still steals profits from the Japanese creators.
How? If the anime is not available in the U.S., what money are they
missing that they would have seen otherwise.
>When you buy an imported anime title [...]
If you truly believe that owners of fansubs would buy $90+ imported
laserdiscs, you're living in a fantasy world.
Ryan Mathews
In <55ka1n$d...@herald.concentric.net> Dr...@cris.com (Les Jenkins)
writes:
>
>[Renting is] no where near being the same evil [as fansubs]. Renting a
>video is like going to the movies.
Oh, really? AnimEigo gets a cut of each rental? I wasn't aware of
that. In fact, I don't think it's the case. I'm pretty sure the only
money AnimEigo sees is in the initial purchase, just like fansubs.
That being said, companies still like to encourage rentals, because of
the potential for Blockbuster to buy a heap of copies, like it did with
AnimEigo's A.D. POLICE.