What is so friggin' hard to pronounce about "Mononoke"?
Jeff Williams
with "corrected" pronunciation (according to nausicaa.net), and they're
*still* pronouncing it "ma-no-no-kay". They fixed the "ke", but not
the "mo".
This is gonna drive me nuts if it's actually pronounced this way in the
movie. Is it? Has anyone actually heard the English dub yet?
--
// Jeff Williams
// ge...@nervhq.org
// "The one who survived is the one who had
// the will to make it happen." - Misato Katsuragi
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
eirias
>
> I just downloaded the newer trailer of Princess Mononoke, supposedly
> with "corrected" pronunciation (according to nausicaa.net), and they're
> *still* pronouncing it "ma-no-no-kay". They fixed the "ke", but not
> the "mo".
>
> This is gonna drive me nuts if it's actually pronounced this way in the
> movie. Is it? Has anyone actually heard the English dub yet?
It's said ONCE.
By Minnie Driver...and she pronounced it correctly, as I remember.
On the other hand, I was only listening for the ke, and I think the
difference between ma and mo at that speed is so slight your
overreacting to the point of insane hysteria ;)
--
President of the BU Anime Club: http://members.xoom.com/BUAnime/
Over 500 of my movie reviews: http://members.xoom.com/eirias/
Manga translations for 1 volume of Yokohama Shopping Diary,
5 full volumes of The Violinist of Hamelin and 1 scanned issue:
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/translations/
Scott D Hamilton
wrote:
> I just downloaded the newer trailer of Princess Mononoke, supposedly
> with "corrected" pronunciation (according to nausicaa.net), and they're
> *still* pronouncing it "ma-no-no-kay". They fixed the "ke", but not
> the "mo".
>
> This is gonna drive me nuts if it's actually pronounced this way in the
> movie. Is it? Has anyone actually heard the English dub yet?
WHO CARES?
Look, English does not easily allow for the same vowel sound showing up
multiple times in the same word. It's a rare thing. We tend to let one
vowel modify the one before it. That's English. (Japanese people have
trouble with our vowels sounds, because we have a lot more than they do.)
Look, you probably routinely mispronounce all sorts of foriegn words, and
never give it a single thought. Do you say "Pair-is" or "Pay-ree"?
Just deal with it. Take a chill pill. IT DOESN'T MATTER!
The Japanese routinely mispronounce English words, as a matter of policy.
In Japan, you ask the taxi driver to take you to the "ho-te-ru," not the
"hotel." So, one obscure Japanese word has taken on new pronunciation in
the US. Happens all the time. Read a book linguistics. You might learn
something.
Or do you go around yelling at people for mispronouncing Pac Man,
Godzilla, sushi, karaoke, and tsunami?
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
ScoPi in St.Pete || Visit Stomp Tokyo Movie Reviews at:
sco...@atlantic.net || http://www.stomptokyo.com/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Robert Hutchinson
> WHO CARES?
<snip>
While I agree with the above ...
> The Japanese routinely mispronounce English words, as a matter of policy.
> In Japan, you ask the taxi driver to take you to the "ho-te-ru," not the
> "hotel." So, one obscure Japanese word has taken on new pronunciation in
> the US. Happens all the time. Read a book linguistics. You might learn
> something.
(If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me with extreme prejudice.)
"Hotel" becomes "ho-te-ru" in Japanese because it *has* to. Japanese
doesn't allow for just any precise blending of sounds. Approximations
are needed.
"Mononoke" isn't mispronounced because it has to be, but because it
makes it sound better to your average English-speaker's ear. I say
again, however, that I don't think it's worth getting upset over.
> Or do you go around yelling at people for mispronouncing Pac Man,
> Godzilla, sushi, karaoke, and tsunami?
People mispronounce "sushi?" Hmmmm. And most people I know
manage a passable "tsunami" ...
Robert Hutchinson
Who wants to sing some carry okee?
Carl Benson
--CarlB
Chika
Jeff Williams <ge...@nervhq.org> wrote:
> I just downloaded the newer trailer of Princess Mononoke, supposedly
> with "corrected" pronunciation (according to nausicaa.net), and they're
> *still* pronouncing it "ma-no-no-kay". They fixed the "ke", but not
> the "mo".
> This is gonna drive me nuts if it's actually pronounced this way in the
> movie. Is it? Has anyone actually heard the English dub yet?
Reminds me of "banana" and Nanny Ogg. She knew how to spell it but
couldn't work out where to finish.
Monononononononoke...
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... Hire teenagers while they still know everything.
Jeff Williams
news:scotth-2810...@tampflxa-as-3-ip-07.atlantic.net...
> WHO CARES?
I do. If you don't, find another thread to read. Nobody's forcing you to read this or
write a response. Answer my question or fuck off, 'kay? I asked a question - it's not up
to you to judge the validity of that question. If you do so, you will invariably get
slammed.
> Look, English does not easily allow for the same vowel sound showing up
> multiple times in the same word.
I got one thing to say to you: "Mississippi." Besides, "mononoke" is not an English word
(actually, very few English words are really English words). Do you pronounce "sushi"
like "slushie"? No, you pronounce it something like "sooshee" even though that's not
standard English pronunciation, because it is a *Japanese word*.
> Look, you probably routinely mispronounce all sorts of foriegn words, and
> never give it a single thought. Do you say "Pair-is" or "Pay-ree"?
That's an excuse? One incorrect pronunciation catches on in society and from then on it's
acceptable to pronounce *everything* wrong? With that kind of reasoning you're not even
going to understand your grandkids 50 years from now.
> Just deal with it. Take a chill pill. IT DOESN'T MATTER!
Of course it does. It's *WRONG*! What if I went around calling you "Slott Ham & son"?
Would that not get a little annoying to you after a while? What if I were a journalist
writing a story about you and I gave that as your name several times in an article? What
if I made a film about your life and substituted that as your name, not out of spite or as
a joke, but out of pure carelessness? I suppose you wouldn't care? What if I also said
your mom's name was "Bitch"? That's the kind of risk you run when you carelessly throw
around mispronunciations of foreign words.
> The Japanese routinely mispronounce English words, as a matter of policy.
> In Japan, you ask the taxi driver to take you to the "ho-te-ru," not the
> "hotel."
In Japanese, "hoteru" sounds as close to the proper English pronunciation of "hotel" as
any regional US dialect does. Or did you not know that the "u" sound in "ru" in this
context is silent, and the Japanese "r" is about midway between the English "r" and the
English "L"?
Regardless, "hoteru" is not an English word, anymore than "fuck" is an ancient
Indo-European word. The fact that "hoteru" originated *from* English does not make it
English (if it was an English word, they would write it using the Roman alphabet - as they
do with your later "Pac/Puck Man" example). It is a Japanese word, and they can pronounce
it however the hell they want. "Mononoke" is also a Japanese word - it is not an English
word, and does not fall under English "rules" (though the only "rule" in English is that
there are multiple exceptions to every rule).
So, one obscure Japanese word has taken on new pronunciation in
> the US. Happens all the time. Read a book linguistics. You might learn
> something.
Have you even made it out of high school yet? Taken one English class and think you're an
expert? You know a lot less than you think, judging from your "hoteru" nonsense, which
shows an utter lack of linguistics knowledge.
And I also might suggest you read a book on Japanese, because you seem to know *very*
little about it.
>
> Or do you go around yelling at people for mispronouncing Pac Man,
> Godzilla, sushi, karaoke, and tsunami?
Pac Man is an American title, and every American I know pronounces it correctly (the
Japanese title is "Puck Man" - something both Americans and Japanese can pronounce with
ease - and it was in English to begin with). "Godzilla" is Godzilla in Japanese and
English (though, as there is no "L" in Japanese, the pronunciation is a bit different - we
do not have this problem in transporting "mononoke" over here, and cannot use it as an
excuse). I already dealt with sushi, and pretty much everyone I know pronounces tsunami
and karaoke correctly. What's the matter with you, do you speak with a lisp or something?
Or are you just a redneck, pronouncing *everything* incorrectly and looking for some
justification in that?
Sorry for the flames, but man, did you ask for it. You go around belittling people who
ask simple questions and you're gonna have nothing but trouble.
--
// Jeff Williams
// ge...@nervhq.org
// ICQ#: 7177789 AIM: Basscadet75
// "Just don't expect to get your bloody black backpack back." - Stroke 9
Scott D Hamilton
<ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Hotel" becomes "ho-te-ru" in Japanese because it *has* to. Japanese
> doesn't allow for just any precise blending of sounds. Approximations
> are needed.
>
> "Mononoke" isn't mispronounced because it has to be, but because it
> makes it sound better to your average English-speaker's ear. I say
> again, however, that I don't think it's worth getting upset over.
I would say the two situations are equivalent. Every human being has the
same vocal equipment (with possible exception of Bob Dylan), and can, with
proper training and practice, speak any language on earth. You could speak
!Kung if you really wanted to. (The "!" is a tongue click by the way) But
unless you happen to be the Pope, it's not really reasonable to learn
every language on the planet.
The Japanese conform English words to their pronunciation, and we conform
Japanese words to our pronunciation. When words move from one culture to
another, they get integrated and transformed by the process.
> > Or do you go around yelling at people for mispronouncing Pac Man,
> > Godzilla, sushi, karaoke, and tsunami?
>
> People mispronounce "sushi?" Hmmmm. And most people I know
> manage a passable "tsunami" ...
Not according to the Japanese. The consanants in "tsu" and "su" are
different to them. We can't hear the difference, because we don't make the
distinction normally. So when we say the "su" in sushi or the "tsu" in
tsunami we pronounce them the same, and to the Japanese, we say them both
wrong. I took three years of Japanese, and I still can't tell the
difference in casual conversation. The inverse of that would be the
difference between "r" and "l". In English, these are different sounds. In
Japanese, they use one sound, usually represented by "r", that is usually
pronounced between our "r" and "l". Hence all those hilarious "flied lice"
jokes in 1940s films.
Lewis Mann
pronounce foreign words correctly, but there's no reason (I don't care what
he said, I say NO REASON) to get so pissed off. Take the moral high ground
man.
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
>
> > "Hotel" becomes "ho-te-ru" in Japanese because it *has* to. Japanese
> > doesn't allow for just any precise blending of sounds. Approximations
> > are needed.
> >
> > "Mononoke" isn't mispronounced because it has to be, but because it
> > makes it sound better to your average English-speaker's ear. I say
> > again, however, that I don't think it's worth getting upset over.
>
> I would say the two situations are equivalent. Every human being has the
> same vocal equipment (with possible exception of Bob Dylan), and can, with
> proper training and practice, speak any language on earth. You could speak
> !Kung if you really wanted to. (The "!" is a tongue click by the way) But
> unless you happen to be the Pope, it's not really reasonable to learn
> every language on the planet.
>
> The Japanese conform English words to their pronunciation, and we conform
> Japanese words to our pronunciation. When words move from one culture to
> another, they get integrated and transformed by the process.
Yes ... but English-to-Japanese almost always requires rather obvious
pronunciations changes, compared to J-to-E, which usually stays intact.
(I'm not saying that English can perfectly represent every Japanese
word ... just that it does a much better job than Japanese can for
English.)
> > > Or do you go around yelling at people for mispronouncing Pac Man,
> > > Godzilla, sushi, karaoke, and tsunami?
> >
> > People mispronounce "sushi?" Hmmmm. And most people I know
> > manage a passable "tsunami" ...
>
> Not according to the Japanese. The consanants in "tsu" and "su" are
> different to them. We can't hear the difference, because we don't make the
> distinction normally. So when we say the "su" in sushi or the "tsu" in
> tsunami we pronounce them the same, and to the Japanese, we say them both
> wrong. I took three years of Japanese, and I still can't tell the
> difference in casual conversation.
Not to insult your three years of Japanese, but when I said that most
people I know manage a passable "tsunami," I mean "tsu" sound and all.
Although I have heard some people say "sue nahm ee."
<snip>
Robert Hutchinson
terrence huey
> >
> > I do. If you don't, find another thread to read. Nobody's forcing
> > of that question.
>
>
> Even if the question just might *be* invalid?
who's to say if it is invalid?
I'm sick of americans mispronouncing everything. I've taken Latin so
you'll never hear me say "Ee pleribus oonum" when it's E pluribus unum.
I've taken spanish and you'll never hear me say "Bwenus airs" when it's
"buenos aires"(pronounced eye-res). And I sure as heck won't stand for
something as simple as Mononoke either.
Someone else made a point... the english language is flexible and could
easily pronounce any of these words correctly. It's just that people
don't.
Robert Hutchinson
>
> Scott D Hamilton wrote ...
> > WHO CARES?
>
> I do. If you don't, find another thread to read. Nobody's forcing
> of that question.
<snip>
Even if the question just might *be* invalid?
Robert Hutchinson
I never knew USENET had such a strict question-answer format.
Robert Hutchinson
>
> > > > WHO CARES?
> > >
> > > I do. If you don't, find another thread to read. Nobody's forcing
> > > 'kay? I asked a question - it's not up to you to judge the validity
> > > of that question.
> >
> >
> > Even if the question just might *be* invalid?
>
While I don't think it is (I was just bouncing off of the other comment),
a response of "I think you're worrying too much about this" is by no
means unheard of, nor is it wrong, nor is it not allowed.
> I'm sick of americans mispronouncing everything. I've taken Latin so
> you'll never hear me say "Ee pleribus oonum" when it's E pluribus unum.
> I've taken spanish and you'll never hear me say "Bwenus airs" when it's
> "buenos aires"(pronounced eye-res). And I sure as heck won't stand for
> something as simple as Mononoke either.
>
> Someone else made a point... the english language is flexible and could
> easily pronounce any of these words correctly. It's just that people
> don't.
*I* made that point. I also said that, despite that, it's not worth
having a fit over. My opinion, and nothing more.
Robert Hutchinson
The Walking Dude
>Scott D Hamilton <sco...@I-HATE-SPAM.atlantic.net> wrote in message
>news:scotth-2810...@tampflxa-as-3-ip-07.atlantic.net...
>> WHO CARES?
>
>I do. If you don't, find another thread to read. Nobody's forcing you to
>read this or
>write a response. Answer my question or fuck off, 'kay? I asked a question
>- it's not up
>to you to judge the validity of that question. If you do so, you will
>invariably get
>slammed.
I think the "Who cares?" is a valid question, really, but who am I to judge...
>
>> Look, English does not easily allow for the same vowel sound showing up
>> multiple times in the same word.
>
>I got one thing to say to you: "Mississippi."
Which is not actually an English word, and is the only exception I can think of
to what was just stated.
Besides, "mononoke" is not an
>English word
>(actually, very few English words are really English words). Do you
>pronounce "sushi"
>like "slushie"? No, you pronounce it something like "sooshee" even though
>that's not
>standard English pronunciation, because it is a *Japanese word*.
Well, that, and sushi has been fairly well exposed in this country for a while.
Only someone who doesn't get out that much would mispronounce it. In
comparison, just how many people in the US use the word "mononoke" in everyday
conversation?
>
>> Look, you probably routinely mispronounce all sorts of foriegn words, and
>> never give it a single thought. Do you say "Pair-is" or "Pay-ree"?
>
>That's an excuse? One incorrect pronunciation catches on in society and from
>then on it's
>acceptable to pronounce *everything* wrong? With that kind of reasoning
>you're not even
>going to understand your grandkids 50 years from now.
The point he was raising was that pronunciations change based on usage. English
probably does this more than any other language, and I could give several
examples of this throughout history. If enough people pronounce a word a
certain way, it becomes the correct way, or at least one of the correct ways.
>
>> Just deal with it. Take a chill pill. IT DOESN'T MATTER!
>
>Of course it does. It's *WRONG*! What if I went around calling you "Slott
>Ham & son"?
He'd throw you in the looney bin?
>Would that not get a little annoying to you after a while? What if I were a
>journalist
>writing a story about you and I gave that as your name several times in an
>article? What
>if I made a film about your life and substituted that as your name, not out
>of spite or as
>a joke, but out of pure carelessness? I suppose you wouldn't care? What if
>I also said
>your mom's name was "Bitch"?
Now you're just being silly, and this crosses the line into slander/libel (I
forget which is which.)
That's the kind of risk you run when you
>carelessly throw
>around mispronunciations of foreign words.
So...let me see if I've got this right. You're comparing an understandable
mispronunciation of a word that around 99% of Americans have never heard before
to mispronouncing a name that any idiot could correctly say? Quite an argument
you have there.
>
>> The Japanese routinely mispronounce English words, as a matter of policy.
>> In Japan, you ask the taxi driver to take you to the "ho-te-ru," not the
>> "hotel."
>
>In Japanese, "hoteru" sounds as close to the proper English pronunciation of
>"hotel" as
>any regional US dialect does. Or did you not know that the "u" sound in "ru"
>in this
>context is silent, and the Japanese "r" is about midway between the English
>"r" and the
>English "L"?
>
>Regardless, "hoteru" is not an English word, anymore than "fuck" is an
>ancient
>Indo-European word.
A variation on it is actually an Old German word, although I don't think we
need to get into that. It's not inconceivable that the root was an ancient
Indo-European word, though.
The fact that "hoteru" originated *from* English does
>not make it
>English (if it was an English word, they would write it using the Roman
>alphabet - as they
>do with your later "Pac/Puck Man" example). It is a Japanese word, and they
>can pronounce
>it however the hell they want.
True enough.
"Mononoke" is also a Japanese word - it is
>not an English
>word, and does not fall under English "rules" (though the only "rule" in
>English is that
>there are multiple exceptions to every rule).
Also true, although as I mentioned before, English is famous for altering the
meaning, pronunciation, and spelling of foreign words for its own use.
>
> So, one obscure Japanese word has taken on new pronunciation in
>> the US. Happens all the time. Read a book linguistics. You might learn
>> something.
>
>Have you even made it out of high school yet? Taken one English class and
>think you're an
>expert? You know a lot less than you think, judging from your "hoteru"
>nonsense, which
>shows an utter lack of linguistics knowledge.
Not to start an argument, but someone could easily say the same about you with
some of the nonsense you've been spewing.
>
>And I also might suggest you read a book on Japanese, because you seem to
>know *very*
>little about it.
>
>>
>> Or do you go around yelling at people for mispronouncing Pac Man,
>> Godzilla, sushi, karaoke, and tsunami?
>
>Pac Man is an American title, and every American I know pronounces it
>correctly (the
>Japanese title is "Puck Man" - something both Americans and Japanese can
>pronounce with
>ease - and it was in English to begin with). "Godzilla" is Godzilla in
>Japanese and
>English
Godilla was Gojira in the original, BTW.
(though, as there is no "L" in Japanese, the pronunciation is a bit
>different - we
>do not have this problem in transporting "mononoke" over here, and cannot use
>it as an
>excuse).
How about the standard pronunciation for the mono- prefix, then? Hell, I give
these people credit for even pronouncing the -ke part correctly.
I already dealt with sushi, and pretty much everyone I know
>pronounces tsunami
>and karaoke correctly. What's the matter with you, do you speak with a lisp
>or something?
>Or are you just a redneck, pronouncing *everything* incorrectly and looking
>for some
>justification in that?
And we descend into namecalling. We're probably only a few steps away from the
inevitable Hitler reference...
>
>Sorry for the flames, but man, did you ask for it. You go around belittling
>people who
>ask simple questions and you're gonna have nothing but trouble.
And I think you're going to have nothing but trouble if something this
insignificant bothers you this much. Speaking of which, I believe Neil Gaiman
is rather pissed off at anime fans for being so incredibly anal retentive about
things like this and not just being excited that the movie is coming out. If he
actually said this, I tend to agree with him.
Randall Flagg
SECru Lord Of Darkness
Shouldn't you visit the GWA? http://www.angelfire.com/on2/gwapage/gwahome.html
RIP Owen Hart: 1965-1999
Christopher Biow
>"Mononoke" isn't mispronounced because it has to be, but because it
>makes it sound better to your average English-speaker's ear.
There is a continuum here, with no absolutes.
Pronouncing a four-syllable word with "flat" emphasis and three sequential
repetitions of the same vowel is extremely difficult for most English
speakers. With syllabic emphasis tends to come some degree of change in
pronunciation. Take English pronunciation of Matsushita as an example.
Their US employees tend to say "maht-SUSH-'tuh", and they are paid to do
even that much! The average 'Murkin is going to say MAHT-su-SHEET-uh 'till
the cows come home.
If a Disney narrator can manage "ma-no-NO-kay", that's probably as much as
can be asked. Anything more would tend to hurt attendance by making it
sound "too foreign."
Mississippi and banana are good examples. Neither sounds remotely English
in origin, and the latter has either one or two vowels rendered as schwa,
varying between 'Murkin and British dialects.
Can't wait to see the movie!
Thomas Chan
>I just downloaded the newer trailer of Princess Mononoke, supposedly
>with "corrected" pronunciation (according to nausicaa.net), and they're
>*still* pronouncing it "ma-no-no-kay". They fixed the "ke", but not
>the "mo".
People just see a long string of letters and get lost parsing it for
pronounciation and spelling purposes. They'd be fine if it were
segmented into "mono no ke", e.g., 'hairy thing'. The same happens
with "Tiananmen"--"tian an men", e.g., 'gate of heavenly peace'.
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Himemiya Anthy
28109923...@tampflxa-as-10-ip-05.atlantic.net>:
>
>Not according to the Japanese. The consanants in "tsu" and "su" are
>different to them. We can't hear the difference, because we don't make the
>distinction normally. So when we say the "su" in sushi or the "tsu" in
>tsunami we pronounce them the same, and to the Japanese, we say them both
>wrong. I took three years of Japanese, and I still can't tell the
>difference in casual conversation. The inverse of that would be the
>difference between "r" and "l". In English, these are different sounds. In
>Japanese, they use one sound, usually represented by "r", that is usually
>pronounced between our "r" and "l". Hence all those hilarious "flied lice"
>jokes in 1940s films.
>
From experience, the japanise "u" sound is often closer to the French "u"
than to the English "u" (which s pronounced oo)... English doesn't make a
difference between then, but as a native French speaker, I can definitely
hear the difference beween the two "u" sounds in Japanese...
Take care!
H. A.
Louis Patterson
Not quite. French "u" (sort-of-phoneme-represented-by-the-letter-u,
not the sound-in-french-represented-by-ipa-u-and-graphic-ou) is a
high front rounded vowel. Japanese "u" (and there is only one) is a
high back unrounded vowel. All this is irrelevent; accept that
japanese "u" sounds like the u in put, not the oo in pool ( at least
in my dialect (( australian)) ).
The question tsu vs su is rather more complex. Japanese does not
actually have a sound sequence t-s-u; it's actually t-u, with the t
pronounced slightly differently (the same sort of thing with shi[si],
chi[ti], fu[hu], ji[normally zi, but also di] ((and equiv. palatised
sounds (that's why it's spelt kodansya) )). In the *other*, far
superiour (for us linguists anyway) transliteration schemes, these
sounds (actually the kana, but this is semantics) are transliterated
as such.
The problem is that 1: the sound sequence (in english) tu sounds
little like japanese tu 2: the sound sequence tsu does not occur
sylable initially in english. dakara, the closest aproximmation an
(untrained) english speaker can make is [su]. In short; its not a
question of phonology (for /tsu/) but phonotactics. For [u], no prob.
And a far greater problem for japanese speakers learning english is
sylable structures, anyway.
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l...@students.cs.mu.oz.au
Christopher Biow
>And a far greater problem for japanese speakers learning english is
>sylable structures, anyway.
This may be veering OT, but I find it fascinating. Could you expand on what
you mean by "syllable structures"?
Edward Cha
Woops. Booo!!!
Mono no ke is not 'hairy thing'; in particular, 'ke' is not hair.
'Ke' would be the character that normally is pronouced 'ki' (you all know
what it means... the 'ki' used in martial arts and emotions).
If anyone finds me wrong, too, say so.
By the way, Americans often think that they are pronouncing Japanese
perfectly, but they most often can't. Don't forget that Japanese also
has two levels of something you might call 'tones' that people never
learn in their Japanese classes. These tones can also change the
meanings of certain words, like chopsticks/bridge, love/indigo, etc.
I've never met an American who could speak Japanese without an accent
(But I've met one Chinese guy who could).
Ed
: Thomas Chan
: tc...@cornell.edu
Chika
<ec...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Mono no ke is not 'hairy thing'; in particular, 'ke' is not hair. 'Ke'
> would be the character that normally is pronouced 'ki' (you all know
> what it means... the 'ki' used in martial arts and emotions).
> If anyone finds me wrong, too, say so.
mononoke - ghost (vengeful, angry), specter
However (which is probably how the above occurred)
mono - 1. mono; 2. person; 3. thing, object
no - 1. possesive participle; 2. field
ke - hair, fur
thing/person with hair
(ki has a helluva lot of translations including chronicle, table, raw or
undiluted, period or time, spirit or mood, wood, deed or skill, lean on etc.)
That's how my dicker sees it anyhow... ^_^
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
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... Brought to you by the Mother of all Messages
Rev. Pedro Colman-Arrellaga
wrote:
>In article <7vqbjg$9f6$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Edward Cha
><ec...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> Mono no ke is not 'hairy thing'; in particular, 'ke' is not hair. 'Ke'
>> would be the character that normally is pronouced 'ki' (you all know
>> what it means... the 'ki' used in martial arts and emotions).
>
>> If anyone finds me wrong, too, say so.
>
>mononoke - ghost (vengeful, angry), specter
>
>However (which is probably how the above occurred)
>
>mono - 1. mono; 2. person; 3. thing, object
>no - 1. possesive participle; 2. field
>ke - hair, fur
>
>thing/person with hair
>
>(ki has a helluva lot of translations including chronicle, table, raw or
>undiluted, period or time, spirit or mood, wood, deed or skill, lean on etc.)
>
>That's how my dicker sees it anyhow... ^_^
I'm rather sure you're both wrong.
mono no ke
The difference is the "ke." Here it is in S-JIS:
?¨?Ě?ö
The "ke" is the same kanji as "aya" in ayashii (strange, mysterious).
Basically, strange or mysterious thing. Makes a lot more sense than "hairy
thing" when speaking of a ghost.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev. Pedro Colman-Arréllaga | Believing is easier than thinking. Hence
hiss...@cris.com | so many more believers than thinkers.
hiss...@concentric.net | - Bruce Calvert
----------------------------|
"The Typhoid Mary of | Do I contradict myself?
the shipping business" | Very well then, I contradict myself,
| (I am large, I contain multitudes).
AKA "Mr. NEGATIVE" | - Walt Whitman
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Louis Patterson
Japanese sylables (actually mora, but the diff is irrelevant here) can
have the following possible structures:
Vowel
Consonant followed by vowel
Consonant followed by y followed by a vowel.
sylabic n (which isn't actually an /n/ at all, much of the time)
glottal stop (normally merged with following consonant giving double
consonant)
Therefore, japanese can never have more than one consonant in a mora,
and that at the beginning.
However, english can have up to three consonants at the start of a
sylable, and another three (IIRC) at the end. As in strengths. This is
quite hard to pronounce for many japanese person without adding extra
vowels.
This, combined with the fact that japanese has fewer vowels and
consonants than english, incidently, means that japanese has much
longer words (in number of sylables) than english. Which is why
Zankoku na tenchi no you ni (12 mora)
was translated as
Like an angel with no sense of mercy (10 sylables)
instead of the equally correct
Like a brutal/cruel angel (6/5 sylables)
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l...@students.cs.mu.oz.au
[you can tell i'm a linguistics major, can't you...]
Chika
> ?¨?Ì?ö
> The "ke" is the same kanji as "aya" in ayashii (strange, mysterious).
> Basically, strange or mysterious thing. Makes a lot more sense than
> "hairy thing" when speaking of a ghost.
Hence the first translation, vengeful or angry ghost. I can't see your
S-JIS since my client filters out such things, but since my Jiten tallies
with your suggestion, it's probably the same thing. (I'd do you a Phil Yff
monster kanji at this point, but since I don't have the software to hand,
we'll just have to leave it at that!)
Come to think of it, haven't heard much of Phil in many moons... ^_^
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
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... ASCII stupid question... get a stupid ANSI!
Rylan Hilman
wrote:
>By the way, Americans often think that they are pronouncing Japanese
>perfectly, but they most often can't. Don't forget that Japanese also
>has two levels of something you might call 'tones' that people never
>learn in their Japanese classes. These tones can also change the
>meanings of certain words, like chopsticks/bridge, love/indigo, etc.
BTW, why IS this never taught in classes? Is it because it's too
hard, too complicated, too unimportant...?
Rev. Pedro Colman-Arrellaga
wrote:
>On 3 Nov 1999 22:05:36 GMT, ec...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Edward Cha)
>wrote:
>
>>By the way, Americans often think that they are pronouncing Japanese
>>perfectly, but they most often can't. Don't forget that Japanese also
>>has two levels of something you might call 'tones' that people never
>>learn in their Japanese classes. These tones can also change the
>>meanings of certain words, like chopsticks/bridge, love/indigo, etc.
>
> BTW, why IS this never taught in classes? Is it because it's too
>hard, too complicated, too unimportant...?
I wouldn't say never. I found one course that featured it prominently.
Damien Roc
>
> On 3 Nov 1999 22:05:36 GMT, ec...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Edward Cha)
> wrote:
>
> >By the way, Americans often think that they are pronouncing Japanese
> >perfectly, but they most often can't. Don't forget that Japanese also
> >has two levels of something you might call 'tones' that people never
> >learn in their Japanese classes. These tones can also change the
> >meanings of certain words, like chopsticks/bridge, love/indigo, etc.
>
> BTW, why IS this never taught in classes? Is it because it's too
> hard, too complicated, too unimportant...?
That's funny. My Jpn 101 class covers intonations, pitch variations, and
such... The differen't between a word that has rising intonation and
falling intonation. (and how it can rise and fall.)
Damien Roc
Water Dragon Productions
Mike Stackpole Fan (1992)
Natalie Portman fan (Tuesday, May 25, 1999)
Umi's Champion, Nuriko's Honor Guard
http://www.whyweb.com/damienroc/
But it was the BEST three and a half minutes of the show!
-Tiffany Grant, on Plastic Little
OtakuVidiot
Pedro Colman-Arrellaga)'s post in rec.arts.anime.misc:
>> BTW, why IS this never taught in classes? Is it because it's too
>>hard, too complicated, too unimportant...?
>
>I wouldn't say never. I found one course that featured it prominently.
My Ghod! I would think that any class that doesn't feature that would be one
worth very little!
o_B