Re: ADV and the A, B, C-titles
star...@yahoo.com
> During an interview with ANN the CEO of ADVision, John Ledford, said,
> "... A lot of stuff might be very oriented to the Japanese domestic
> market; other things might simply be just B or C grade titles in
> today's market. They may have sold 5 years ago, but thanks to the
> download business, most people buy their A titles and they download
> their Bs and Cs. There is no market for B and C titles anymore."
And ADV is full of B and C titles. That's the one thing ADV does not
tell you.
The reason that ADV has raised such a shit-stink about downloaders
with reference to grading titles like this is that, to fill their
Anime Network, they had to license a bunch of titles that, simply,
would not sell.
I mean, I'm a big fan of Kaleido Star, but, _at best_, that's a B
title.
> He added; "...Five years ago, three years ago you could buy anything
> and almost anything would sell, not everything but almost. Now you
> have to be a sniper. You have to snipe the good titles, that's all
> that will sell. Everything else, the stores don't want it, the fans
> will download it....So I think that's what you're going to see. A much
> lower quantity of titles, but you'll see a better quality...."
>
> He meant legal download-services, like the one his company offers.
Of course. And that might be the future of where the B and C titles
go.
> So, what do you think, is an A-, B- or C-title from their point of
> view? What kind of qualitiy does he means?
It's hard for me to read from their point of view, so here's my read:
There's only about 10 A titles a year -- titles that are in high
demand. That's one of the reasons I called Ouran (and if this guy is
to be believed, why didn't ADV open up the vault to try to get
Ouran???) The Grand Prize when Funimation got it -- it's basically one
of those titles that's guaranteed to draw a crowd. That would be a
AAA-title.
Examples of As would be basically most of the anime you know and
love: The Fruits Baskets, Evas, Daiohs, and the like.
B titles just fall short of that -- there's definitely a market for
them, but not as much of one as an A.
And C, well, is the rest. And you can be rest assured that C's will
probably be left to the "lesser companies" from now on.
Mike
Phil Yff
>
> There's only about 10 A titles a year -- titles that are in high
> demand. That's one of the reasons I called Ouran (and if this guy is
> to be believed, why didn't ADV open up the vault to try to get
> Ouran???) The Grand Prize when Funimation got it -- it's basically one
> of those titles that's guaranteed to draw a crowd. That would be a
> AAA-title.
It seems to me that ADV was the early bird. They are releasing
Utawarerumono and Le Chevalier d'Eon while Funimation is talking about a
future release of Ouran. Utawarerumono finished up the same time Ouran did
in September 06 and Chevalier wrapped up afterwards.
Although different people have their personal preferences, I consider
Utawarerumono to be on par with Ouran as far as A, B, and C rankings. Le
Chevalier d'Eon is clearly the cream of the crop. Its exquisitely detailed
artwork admirably showcases Japan's Hi-Vision broadcast technology. In
other words, if Utawarerumono and Ouran are A properties, Chevalier is an
A+ property.
Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking up
Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and got the
best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more rapidly -
they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this month. As a
final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch and matches the
splendor of the series.
Mata ato de,
Phil Yff
Mehdi Tibouchi
>
> if Utawarerumono and Ouran are A properties, Chevalier is an A+
> property.
That's debatable at the very least. I didn't watch much of Chevalier, but
what little I saw of it didn't strike me as particularly interesting.
Eye-candy alone is not enough.
I won't be arguing that Utawarerumono is top-notch--the beginning was
quite good, but it failed pretty miserably in the end. Ouran, on the
other hand, is definitely among the very few best shows of 2006.
Phil Yff
>> if Utawarerumono and Ouran are A properties, Chevalier is an A+
>> property.
>
> That's debatable at the very least. I didn't watch much of Chevalier, but
> what little I saw of it didn't strike me as particularly interesting.
> Eye-candy alone is not enough.
>
> I won't be arguing that Utawarerumono is top-notch--the beginning was
> quite good, but it failed pretty miserably in the end. Ouran, on the
> other hand, is definitely among the very few best shows of 2006.
That's why I caveated my comments that everyone has their preferences. I
have watched all three series in their entirety and have enjoyed all three.
However, we are talking about very different genres so individual tastes
will have a lot to do with how well they do at the box office.
Nevertheless, in objective terms (looking at production values), Chevalier
was the 'blockbuster' series of the 2006-2007.
Although Chevalier was a very polished work, it was a lot more than
"eye-candy". It had an intriguing plot, well-developed characters, and
very good dramatic pacing. In other words, it was a superbly crafted
series from every aspect. However, if 18th century European
historical-fantasy fiction is not your cup of tea, I can't fault you for
that.
Aya the Vampire Slayer
>So, what do you think, is an A-, B- or C-title from their point of
>view? What kind of qualitiy does he means?
It's a popularity contest, but I feel, only to a point. It has basically
nothing to do with how much money was thrown at the production, but how
good a story/characters/etc they came up with given the budget they got.
-+-
[A Titles]
EVA, for example, is definitely an A show. It gets going pretty good at
the beginning but fails utterly at the end (by most people's reconing, I
would guess). Despite this, people still watch it and still buy it and
still discuss it, even 10+ years later.
Yff mentioned Le Chavelier D'Eon. In my opinion D'Eon is probably a B
show. It may have high production values, but how much discussion is
really going on about it in the fan communities? Spiffy visuals and big
budgets do not an A show make. IMO of course. An A show to ADV is one
that's going to sell a lot, which means it has to be a very popular
show, probably BEFORE it's even released. I don't hear much commenting
on D'Eon outside of Yff himself, so I can't really believe this show,
despite the high budget and awesome visuals, would really sit on par
with EVA for sellability to a company like ADV.
Bleach. I don't watch it. But there are tons and tons of threads on raam
about it as it's been airing on CN or something. Fan interest in this
show most assuredly puts Bleach at an A ranking. Inuyasha falls into
this category too. Naruto too. DBZ too. To me, though, when a series
breaks (or is planned to break) the 100-ep mark, especially if there is
no end in sight, would relegate it to a B ranking (the the prospect of
buying 50 DVDs to complete a series makes me gag). But to companies?
Probably doesn't matter at all, given how much merchandizing goes on for
these shows (and I imagine most soccer moms don't look up series length
before buying their kids Naruto DVDs).
Fullmetal Alchemist. I would really like to rank this an A, but I'm not
sure how prolific it is outside of raam, interest-wise. I think there
are quite a few fans of the series and people willing to fork out the
dough for all those DVDs, so I would probably put it at an A. But just
barely.
Cowboy Bebop. Good production values. Good Characters. Good story. Huge
fan hit. Relatively short series. Aired on Cartoon Network. Definite A
material.
Tenchi Muyu, Geneon's properties, probably A material even though the
quality of the series varies highly between the different incarnations.
They have milked and milked and milked this one. I imagine that Geneon
has gotten more than their money's worth out of this one. (I realize
Funimation has GXP, which I think falls into C ratings).
Slayers. Also A material. Ridiculously popular despite dubious
production values and lack of being aired on TV (AFAIK).
-+-
[B Titles]
B anime, to me, are things that just don't quite make A ranking but have
equally good stories/characters/etc, that are fairly popular with a
tight knot of core fans, but just can't permeate into the mainstream for
whatever reason. (ie, things that are good but don't get aired on CN for
whatever reason). Haibane Renmei. Hikaru no Go. Prince of Tennis.
Escaflowne TV.
Most good shoujo/josei probably ends up in the B barrel because no one
wants to air shoujo on TV. Fruits Basket was popular despite that
though, and I think would qualify as an A. Ouran I'm not so sure yet.
I'll believe Ouran an A when I see it, once it is released. Yamanade
and Nodame, when someday licensed, I think will be relegated to B
territory, even though I consider them both great shows. (Kodocha, Nana
TV, Honey & Clover, all Bs probably) (CCS is probably an A though, iirc
the uncut DVDs sold well)
-+-
[C Titles]
C anime. Shows that barely have any fan following at all. Either they
are too obscure, their subject matter is too limited or too foreign, or
they are just utter crap. Things that you sometimes wonder if it was
worth even downloading. Things that you download the entire series of,
watch the first 8 eps, decide it's crap, archive the DVDs, and never
think about it again. C anime are the reason you like having fansubs
available so you can know before you waste any money on them that they
are not worth even a single dime. Things that companies like ADV try to
sneak past your radar as good/interesting shows, hoping you haven't
already seen some of it fansubbed so that you'll go ahead and take the
chance on it and waste your money.
Super Milk-chan. El Hazard: Wanderers. Tenchi Muyo GXP. Saber Marionette
J (anything after the first series). Most date-sim anime (excl. Air,
Kanon, and the like).
Dare I say Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain are Cs? I still own them.
Heh.
--
"Care must be exorcised when handring Opiticar System as it is apts to
be sticked by dusts and hand-fat." --Japanese Translators
"Keep your fingers off the lens." --Elton Byington, English Translator
Phil Yff
> It's a popularity contest, but I feel, only to a point. It has basically
> nothing to do with how much money was thrown at the production, but how
> good a story/characters/etc they came up with given the budget they got.
>
> -+-
>
> [A Titles]
>
> EVA, for example, is definitely an A show. It gets going pretty good at
> the beginning but fails utterly at the end (by most people's reconing, I
> would guess). Despite this, people still watch it and still buy it and
> still discuss it, even 10+ years later.
>
> Yff mentioned Le Chavelier D'Eon. In my opinion D'Eon is probably a B
> show. It may have high production values, but how much discussion is
> really going on about it in the fan communities?
I don't think you can use the fan community as a valid test. DBZ and
Pokemon are huge commercial successes but generate less discussion on raam
than Yamanade or Death Note. Since it was Ledford who was talking about A,
B, and C titles, it's probably best to use his frame of reference. ADV
went after Chevalier because their new partner, Japanese media giant
Sojitz, advised them to do so. From their perspective, it is an A title.
Here's the English language version of Sojitz's web-site.
http://www.sojitz.com/en/index.html
Maybe an A title in Japan does not equate to an A title in the US. I would
say that, without a TV deal, Chevalier cannnot ascend to A stature.
However, ADV, as Ledford alludes to, is actively exploring this
possibility.
star...@yahoo.com
> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking up
> Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and got the
> best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more rapidly -
> they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this month. As a
> final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch and matches the
> splendor of the series.
Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con and
had to turn away people for over half of it.
I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
Ouran was the Grand Prize.
Mike
Invid Fan
<star...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Aje RavenStar
"Invid Fan" <in...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:030820071938213210%in...@localnet.com...
> In article <1186182105.4...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> <star...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking up
>> > Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and got
>> > the
>> > best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more rapidly -
>> > they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this month. As a
>> > final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch and matches the
>> > splendor of the series.
>>
>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con and
>> had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>
>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>
>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>
> Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
> audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
> may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
> The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
> that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
>
Ok, now there's a challenge. Which show do you think she'd go for?
I'll say ROD, for the title.......
Seriously, Princess Tutu might be something she'd like. Can't think of any
others off the top of my head.
Derek Janssen
>
>>Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
>>audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
>>may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
>>The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
>>that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
>
> Ok, now there's a challenge. Which show do you think she'd go for?
> I'll say ROD, for the title.......
On the "Self-important philistine who attaches way too much significance
to the social (self-)importance of art", we're looking at every title on
the dreary-theatrical Ebert List from Metropolis on down--
Of said list, 5:1 odds on Metropolis, 2:1 on Tokyo Godfathers, and 1:2
prohibitive that she'll try pushing some "Empowered female" angle on
Millenium actress.
Now, if you were asking the question of "Which breakout titles do you
think would find GENERAL mainstream appeal?", *without* specifying on
narcissistic and gushily PC self-deifying blowhards...
Derek Janssen (if they make an anime of "Beloved", consider that a
given, but...)
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
> In article <1186182105.4...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> <star...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking up
>>>Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and got the
>>>best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more rapidly -
>>>they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this month. As a
>>>final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch and matches the
>>>splendor of the series.
>>
>>Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con and
>>had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>
>>I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>>and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>
>>Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>
>
> Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
> audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
> may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
> The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
> that for the most part.
ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
audience--Unfortunately, they tend to overdo it when picking their
"A"-title guesses and reasons thereof.
They thought Princess Tutu was a too girlish a "B" title to find an
audience, and hey, the show probably came as a surprise to us too.
But as for "A" titles, you can drinking-game the number of times we hear
"Killer goth-lolitas!" in the promos for Coyote Ragtime, and they seem
to have one character in mind when they hyper-promote Nerima Daikon Bros.
(Which makes the whole Sgt. Frog: MIA situation so frustrating:
From interviews at the time, it's one of the few times their marketing
department ever got one of their "A" guesses RIGHT!...) :(
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
elsie
"Aje RavenStar" <whine...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:_PidnQx-P5pdXS7b...@comcast.com...
professor and an LOTR geek. I'd given her daughter a copy of Tutu #1, and
the daughter has been Netflixing the rest. My friend finally sat down and
watched it with her, and now she's hooked too.
laurie
Ethan Hammond
news:2fp4b3tktc5m01svn...@4ax.com...
>
> During an interview with ANN the CEO of ADVision, John Ledford, said,
> "... A lot of stuff might be very oriented to the Japanese domestic
> market; other things might simply be just B or C grade titles in
> today's market. They may have sold 5 years ago, but thanks to the
> download business, most people buy their A titles and they download
> their Bs and Cs. There is no market for B and C titles anymore."
>
> and almost anything would sell, not everything but almost. Now you
> have to be a sniper. You have to snipe the good titles, that's all
> that will sell. Everything else, the stores don't want it, the fans
> will download it....So I think that's what you're going to see. A much
> lower quantity of titles, but you'll see a better quality...."
>
>
> He meant legal download-services, like the one his company offers.
>
> view? What kind of qualitiy does he means?
>
> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2007-05-30/john-ledford
When was the last time ADV was able to snipe an A title?
What they need to do is get some GOOD stuff on CN,
that is where you get the audience.
--
All Purpose Culture Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
news:1186182105.4...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Is Ouran a shonen series that will appeal to teenagers and be aired
on CN?
Ethan Hammond
news:gKOdnXaRZo0nWS7b...@comcast.com...
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its audience--Unfortunately,
> they tend to overdo it when picking their "A"-title guesses and reasons
> thereof.
Do they still put a half hour of bs ads on their DVD's
that play automatically before the feature? Put that
stuff in the extras, or run ads on the tee vee.
Ethan Hammond
news:f8vp3o$7fm$1...@news-int2.gatech.edu...
> Arne Luft <ne...@yhsg3.invalid> wa:
>
> Slayers. Also A material. Ridiculously popular despite dubious
> production values and lack of being aired on TV (AFAIK).
It did air on the International Channel IIRC.
sanjian
> In article <1186182105.4...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> <star...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking
>>> up Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and
>>> got the best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving
>>> more rapidly - they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out
>>> this month. As a final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is
>>> top-notch and matches the splendor of the series.
>>
>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con
>> and had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>
>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>
>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>
> Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
> audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
> may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
> The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
> that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
If you've never heard of Ouran, you should come out from under the rock. I
mean, seriously, disagreement over which show was better is one thing, but
not to have heard of it?
sanjian
I'm thinking the old fart is letting his preferences shadow just who won the
acquisition war. Even if he prefers Chevalier, it's clear that ADV didn't
win this battle. Funimation got the supertitle.
sanjian
Quite possibly.
SpaceGirl
> During an interview with ANN the CEO of ADVision, John Ledford, said,
> "... A lot of stuff might be very oriented to the Japanese domestic
> market; other things might simply be just B or C grade titles in
> today's market. They may have sold 5 years ago, but thanks to the
> download business, most people buy their A titles and they download
> their Bs and Cs. There is no market for B and C titles anymore."
>
> He added; "...Five years ago, three years ago you could buy anything
> and almost anything would sell, not everything but almost. Now you
> have to be a sniper. You have to snipe the good titles, that's all
> that will sell. Everything else, the stores don't want it, the fans
> will download it....So I think that's what you're going to see. A much
> lower quantity of titles, but you'll see a better quality...."
>
>
> He meant legal download-services, like the one his company offers.
>
> So, what do you think, is an A-, B- or C-title from their point of
> view? What kind of qualitiy does he means?
>
> The complete interview
> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2007-05-30/john-ledford
>
>
It worries me. Think of really GOOD anime like Serial Experiments Lain.
It's not mainstream, I doubt many people outside of hardcore anime
circles would ever see it. It doesn't taste like a big hit commercial anime.
So I guess this also means that anime that may not look like a
mass-market hit, regardless of other merits (good story, wonderful art)
will get over looked for generic rubbish that WILL sell?
--
x theSpaceGirl (miranda)
-.-
Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com
Phil Yff
Ouran is a show for Otakus. It's tailor made for a con with all its manga
and anime in-jokes. I think you're making my case for me. Ouran, which I
like BTW, is anime for fans. Chevalier, because it is not standard otaku
fare, is not as high on the fans' radars but has the opportunity to attract
a broader audience.
Phil Yff
> "Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:gKOdnXaRZo0nWS7b...@comcast.com...
>> Invid Fan wrote:
>>
>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its audience--Unfortunately,
>> they tend to overdo it when picking their "A"-title guesses and reasons
>> thereof.
>
> Do they still put a half hour of bs ads on their DVD's
> that play automatically before the feature? Put that
> stuff in the extras, or run ads on the tee vee.
Yes and that practice goes back to their VHS days, THEIR VHS DAYS!
Phil Yff
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
>> In article <1186182105.4...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> <star...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking up
>>>>Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and got the
>>>>best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more rapidly -
>>>>they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this month. As a
>>>>final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch and matches the
>>>>splendor of the series.
>>>
>>>Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con and
>>>had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>>
>>>I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>>>and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>>
>>>Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>>
>>
>> Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
>> audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
>> may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
>> The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
>> that for the most part.
>
> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
> audience--Unfortunately, they tend to overdo it when picking their
> "A"-title guesses and reasons thereof.
Neon Genesis Evangelion?
Phil Yff
Aishiteruze Baby is tailor made for Oprah. Viz Media is doing the manga
but AFAIK no one has picked up the anime.
Phil Yff
I noticed at the ADV website that the first DVD volume has sold out so
quite a few people must be buying it.
Megane
<MlVsi.396335$p47.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> When was the last time ADV was able to snipe an A title?
> What they need to do is get some GOOD stuff on CN,
> that is where you get the audience.
Except isn't ADV trying to push their own channel? Which most cable
systems probably don't carry, and those that do have it on a digital
tier because there are already too damn many channels?
So your suggestion is really a two-parter. :-)
Phil Yff
Or the SF Channel, the SF CHANNEL!
sanjian
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:01:45 -0700, star...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking
>>> up Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and
>>> got the best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving
>>> more rapidly - they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out
>>> this month. As a final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is
>>> top-notch and matches the splendor of the series.
>>
>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con
>> and had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>
>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>
>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>
> Ouran is a show for Otakus. It's tailor made for a con with all its
> manga and anime in-jokes. I think you're making my case for me.
> Ouran, which I like BTW, is anime for fans. Chevalier, because it is
If you're watching Ouran for the in-jokes, you're missing 99.998% of the
series. You're making a fetish of the incidentals.
> not standard otaku fare, is not as high on the fans' radars but has
> the opportunity to attract a broader audience.
But has no indication that it actually will.
Rob Kelk
>"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:gKOdnXaRZo0nWS7b...@comcast.com...
>> Invid Fan wrote:
>>
>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its audience--Unfortunately,
>> they tend to overdo it when picking their "A"-title guesses and reasons
>> thereof.
>
>Do they still put a half hour of bs ads on their DVD's
>that play automatically before the feature?
Yep. But at least they're skippable...
> Put that
>stuff in the extras, or run ads on the tee vee.
Or make them available for download, DOWNLOAD! (shakes BitTorrent)
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
star...@yahoo.com
> Ouran is a show for Otakus. It's tailor made for a con with all its manga
> and anime in-jokes. I think you're making my case for me. Ouran, which I
> like BTW, is anime for fans. Chevalier, because it is not standard otaku
> fare, is not as high on the fans' radars but has the opportunity to attract
> a broader audience.
The problem is, chances are, you're having to make your anime market
for the otakus.
If you're _counting on_ marketing the show to the general public to
outdo an Ouran, anime does not have the mainstream acceptance (mega-
cons aside, it's still a niche and quite one) and would need the
equivalent (as previously hypothetically put) of an Oprah Club to do
well.
Sorry, Ouran was the AA or AAA title of this cycle, and Funi got it.
ADV gets left behind -- again.
Mike (About the only hope ADV has vis-a-vis getting back in the
competition with them is if Navarre continues to cannibalize
Funimation and basically neuters it.)
Invid Fan
<nothespac...@subhuman.net> wrote:
> It worries me. Think of really GOOD anime like Serial Experiments Lain.
> It's not mainstream, I doubt many people outside of hardcore anime
> circles would ever see it. It doesn't taste like a big hit commercial anime.
>
> So I guess this also means that anime that may not look like a
> mass-market hit, regardless of other merits (good story, wonderful art)
> will get over looked for generic rubbish that WILL sell?
It use to be that the rubbish (or porn) sold well enough that they had
the extra money to release good, less popular shows. Also, the market
was small enough that something like Lain actually sold well because
there was nothing else like it.
Invid Fan
wrote:
> Invid Fan wrote:
> > Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
> > audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
> > may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
> > The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
> > that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
>
> If you've never heard of Ouran, you should come out from under the rock. I
> mean, seriously, disagreement over which show was better is one thing, but
> not to have heard of it?
>
Where would I have heard of it? I honestly pay no attention to
anything, be it music, anime, or movies, until I notice it in a store
(online or local) or see an ad or review in passing. I'm an old fart
well past caring about some things.
Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got anything
that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
Invid Fan
wrote:
And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
Invid Fan
<phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
They massively overpaid for it at the time, so much so they passed on
the movies. Younger fans probably don't remember that Eva was a) one of
the first wave of tv series to be released subtitled in the US, and b)
paired with Blue Seed as far a advertising and release schedule went.
Blue Seed did poorly (they had to drop volume numbers from the second
half to trick stores into stocking new volumes) while Eva did great.
star...@yahoo.com
> In article
> <MlVsi.396335$p47.110...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Ethan Hammond" <eshamm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > When was the last time ADV was able to snipe an A title?
Ethan, that's why you see ADV bitching about the fansubbers more than
most.
Look at their catalog and give me ONE A-title that isn't 2 or more
years old.
(Even AMG2 might not be able to be so considered.)
> Except isn't ADV trying to push their own channel? Which most cable
> systems probably don't carry, and those that do have it on a digital
> tier because there are already too damn many channels?
Megane: If ADV goes down, this is why. They tried to license a bunch
of lesser titles to expose them on Anime Network -- and it didn't
take.
Mike
SpaceGirl
> In article <5hj5n3F...@mid.individual.net>, SpaceGirl
> <nothespac...@subhuman.net> wrote:
>
>> It worries me. Think of really GOOD anime like Serial Experiments Lain.
>> It's not mainstream, I doubt many people outside of hardcore anime
>> circles would ever see it. It doesn't taste like a big hit commercial anime.
>>
>> So I guess this also means that anime that may not look like a
>> mass-market hit, regardless of other merits (good story, wonderful art)
>> will get over looked for generic rubbish that WILL sell?
>
> It use to be that the rubbish (or porn) sold well enough that they had
> the extra money to release good, less popular shows. Also, the market
> was small enough that something like Lain actually sold well because
> there was nothing else like it.
>
That's a good point too - I guess that depends how much money they make,
and whether it's enough to push less-commercial anime out?
DBBrandell
A shonen series, or a shonen fighting series? From a money making
standpoint, I think American DVD merchants want shonen shows that are
fighting shows. For a big success, get one of those that did well in
Japan and in the download community, and put it on TV, preferably on
basic cable. From what I've researched, Ouran is for older teens, but
it ain't no fighting show. It sounds like a really nice show, but for
money making, I don't think it fits an importers definition of an A
show, alas.
Look, the discussion has drifted from what makes a show an A list show
to the importing companies, to being about 'quality', which varies for
everyone.
from Arne Luft's original post:
>>> So, what do you think, is an A-, B- or C-title from their point of
>>> view? What kind of qualitiy does he means?
What the importing companies want are shows that can be predicted to
sell lots of DVDs and trinkets. Basically, that's shows that do really
well in Japan and generate a lot of positive buzz in the raw and fansub
download communities. So those are the shows that I think we can expect
ADV and their competitors to bring in. Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto,
Bleach, The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi, all had good buzz coming out
of Japan and are doing well as business properties, If there's a
pattern there, I think we can expect more of the same. To me, it looks
like a few really popular fighting shows with good characters and
intricate plots, and occasionally a really popular comedy.
What worries me is that companies may choose to use this 'pre-filtering'
to pick a small number of A shows to put on DVD, so their profits per
show will be more predictable- skimming the cream of the Japanese crop -
and make us buy the B buzz titles by downloading, to keep their
merchandising costs down. I like getting my DVDs. I used ADV's
download store when they put Chevalier episode #1 out as a free
promotion; it worked until I cloned my computer's OS from an ATA drive
to an SATA drive, and then my license went bye-bye.
Just my two... well, maybe it's more like 59... cents.
DBB
Derek Janssen
>>
>>ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
>>audience--Unfortunately, they tend to overdo it when picking their
>>"A"-title guesses and reasons thereof.
>
> Neon Genesis Evangelion?
Nerima Daikon Bros.
Derek Janssen (two answers that span thirteen years)
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
> In article <5hj5n3F...@mid.individual.net>, SpaceGirl
> <nothespac...@subhuman.net> wrote:
>
>
>>It worries me. Think of really GOOD anime like Serial Experiments Lain.
>>It's not mainstream, I doubt many people outside of hardcore anime
>>circles would ever see it. It doesn't taste like a big hit commercial anime.
>>
>>So I guess this also means that anime that may not look like a
>>mass-market hit, regardless of other merits (good story, wonderful art)
>>will get over looked for generic rubbish that WILL sell?
>
>
> It use to be that the rubbish (or porn) sold well enough that they had
> the extra money to release good, less popular shows. Also, the market
> was small enough that something like Lain actually sold well because
> there was nothing else like it.
And--like Eva and Ghost in the Shell--it was literally one of the only
things on disk, so overenthusiastic core fans (it's cool! it's
different! it doesn't make entertain or make sense, like mainstream
shows do!) could push it onto innocent newbies like castor oil, because
they didn't have much choice...
ADV since went prolific and diversified itself to the point that we've
seen enough series to know good ones from bad ones, and now they're
complaining that they can't sell the bad ones anymore.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcst.net
DBBrandell
< Cynic mode ON > That's the way it has been since Classical Greece. <
Cynic mode OFF >
It worries me too. Hopefully less- I hate this word- sellable stuff
will still get picked up, but just not promoted as much, so the sellers
will still feel they have an acceptable profit margin.
What I fear is they will try selling them by download, which I don't
think really works with digital rights management copy protection stuff
yet. Given that DRM has to be 'tricky' to be successful, I worry that
it will never work. I dunno, maybe I worry too much.
DBB
sanjian
> In article <f91mjb$cld$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Invid Fan wrote:
>>> Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
>>> audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
>>> may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different
>>> group. The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been
>>> able to do
>>> that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple
>>> shows...
>>
>> If you've never heard of Ouran, you should come out from under the
>> rock. I mean, seriously, disagreement over which show was better is
>> one thing, but not to have heard of it?
>>
> Where would I have heard of it? I honestly pay no attention to
> anything, be it music, anime, or movies, until I notice it in a store
> (online or local) or see an ad or review in passing. I'm an old fart
> well past caring about some things.
If you're following anime enough to be posting here... well, I assume you DO
read r.a.a.m.
sanjian
> In article <f91mlt$cn2$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> star...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking
>>>> up Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first
>>>> and got
>>>> the best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more
>>>> rapidly - they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this
>>>> month. As a final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch
>>>> and matches the splendor of the series.
>>>
>>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con
>>> and had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>>
>>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>>
>>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>
>> I'm thinking the old fart is letting his preferences shadow just who
>> won the acquisition war. Even if he prefers Chevalier, it's clear
>> that ADV didn't win this battle. Funimation got the supertitle.
>>
> And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
Quite possibly. ADV seems to have residual Woodhead Syndrome. It drifted
over from AnimEigo and laid dormant for a few years.
Captain Nerd
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> In article <f91mjb$cld$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Invid Fan wrote:
> > > Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
> > > audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
> > > may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
> > > The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
> > > that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
> >
> > If you've never heard of Ouran, you should come out from under the rock. I
> > mean, seriously, disagreement over which show was better is one thing, but
> > not to have heard of it?
> >
> Where would I have heard of it? I honestly pay no attention to
> anything, be it music, anime, or movies, until I notice it in a store
> (online or local) or see an ad or review in passing. I'm an old fart
> well past caring about some things.
>
> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got anything
> that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
Ouran may be too old for you, this 49 year old quite enjoyed it.
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Invid Fan
wrote:
There's a difference between following and enjoying. I consider myself
more of an animation fan now anyway, rather then an anime one.
> well, I assume you DO
> read r.a.a.m.
>
And your post is the first one I've read mentioning the show, so now I
know about it :)
Glenn Shaw
> Invid Fan wrote:
<regarding Ouran>
>> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
>> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got
>> anything that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
>
> Ouran may be too old for you, this 49 year old quite enjoyed it.
As did this 43 year old, even though I've only seen about 8 or so episodes
so far. (I've decided to hold off on the rest until Funi releases the DVDs
here.)
--
Glenn Shaw • Indianapolis, IN USA
To reply by e-mail, swap the net and cast
elsie
"Glenn Shaw" <tog...@comnet.cast> wrote in message
news:Xns9982D6F44D848...@216.196.97.136...
> Captain Nerd wrote:
>
>> Invid Fan wrote:
>
> <regarding Ouran>
>
>>> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
>>> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got
>>> anything that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
>>
>> Ouran may be too old for you, this 49 year old quite enjoyed it.
>
> As did this 43 year old, even though I've only seen about 8 or so episodes
> so far. (I've decided to hold off on the rest until Funi releases the DVDs
> here.)
<metoo>
I loved the anime, and I'm also collecting the manga. I think on the whole
the anime was funnier. The manga is a little more attuned to the subtleties
in the relationships.
</metoo>
laurie, 44
Invid Fan
Shaw <tog...@comnet.cast> wrote:
> Captain Nerd wrote:
>
> > Invid Fan wrote:
>
> <regarding Ouran>
>
> >> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
> >> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got
> >> anything that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
> >
> > Ouran may be too old for you, this 49 year old quite enjoyed it.
>
> As did this 43 year old, even though I've only seen about 8 or so episodes
> so far. (I've decided to hold off on the rest until Funi releases the DVDs
> here.)
Good to see that it's to everyone else's taste :)
Captain Nerd
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> In article <Xns9982D6F44D848...@216.196.97.136>, Glenn
> Shaw <tog...@comnet.cast> wrote:
>
> > Captain Nerd wrote:
> >
> > > Invid Fan wrote:
> >
> > <regarding Ouran>
> >
> > >> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
> > >> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got
> > >> anything that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
> > >
> > > Ouran may be too old for you, this 49 year old quite enjoyed it.
> >
> > As did this 43 year old, even though I've only seen about 8 or so episodes
> > so far. (I've decided to hold off on the rest until Funi releases the DVDs
> > here.)
>
> Good to see that it's to everyone else's taste :)
I have a feeling if you watched the first episode you'd be hooked,
too, unless you don't care for absurd humor. The show has good
characterization, the comic timing is extremely sharp, and they
play with a lot of the cliche situations in non-standard ways
enough to maintain interest.
And I was just tweakin' you on the "anime for 38 year olds" bit
above...
Ethan Hammond
news:f9339i$jcs$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
>>> I'm thinking the old fart is letting his preferences shadow just who
>>> won the acquisition war. Even if he prefers Chevalier, it's clear
>>> that ADV didn't win this battle. Funimation got the supertitle.
>
>> And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
>
> Quite possibly. ADV seems to have residual Woodhead Syndrome. It drifted
> over from AnimEigo and laid dormant for a few years.
What if we mix it w/ the t-virus and las plagas, perhaps all hope
is not yet lost, LOST!
--
All Purpose Culture Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
> Ethan Hammond wrote:
>
>> Is Ouran a shonen series that will appeal to teenagers and be aired
>> on CN?
>
> Quite possibly.
I have never heard of it either, EITHER!
Ethan Hammond
news:5hj5n3F...@mid.individual.net...
> Arne Luft wrote:
>
> It worries me. Think of really GOOD anime like Serial Experiments Lain.
> It's not mainstream, I doubt many people outside of hardcore anime circles
> would ever see it. It doesn't taste like a big hit commercial anime.
>
> So I guess this also means that anime that may not look like a mass-market
> hit, regardless of other merits (good story, wonderful art) will get over
> looked for generic rubbish that WILL sell?
Releasing series on DVD is a business, BUSINESS!
Ethan Hammond
news:v5l6m2k6gdix$.1qo7a23tqzhpc.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:55:42 GMT, Ethan Hammond wrote:
>
>> "Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:gKOdnXaRZo0nWS7b...@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
>>> audience--Unfortunately,
>>> they tend to overdo it when picking their "A"-title guesses and reasons
>>> thereof.
>>
>> stuff in the extras, or run ads on the tee vee.
>
They need to bring back the Nuku Nuku OAV's to regain
there former glory, REGAIN IT! Also they need to get
shows on CN, but mainly the Nuku Nuku part! Maybe
they should also start selling hentai again like da good ole
days!
Ethan Hammond
news:040820071333011980%in...@localnet.com...
> In article <l1sdt60b8i9w$.f8ld16yiew4h$.d...@40tude.net>, Phil Yff
> <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> They massively overpaid for it at the time, so much so they passed on
> the movies. Younger fans probably don't remember that Eva was a) one of
> the first wave of tv series to be released subtitled in the US, and b)
> paired with Blue Seed as far a advertising and release schedule went.
> Blue Seed did poorly (they had to drop volume numbers from the second
> half to trick stores into stocking new volumes) while Eva did great.
But I like Blue Seed because it is about the Orochi who are also in
my beloved King of Fighters and because it has Megumi Hayashibara
so it is twofold, TWOFOLD! *SHAKES KUSANAGI SWORD*
Ethan Hammond
news:1186248832.9...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 4, 5:57 am, Megane <megane#fanboy....@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> In article
>> <MlVsi.396335$p47.110...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> "Ethan Hammond" <eshamm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> > When was the last time ADV was able to snipe an A title?
>
> Ethan, that's why you see ADV bitching about the fansubbers more than
> most.
>
> Look at their catalog and give me ONE A-title that isn't 2 or more
> years old.
Exactly, as the saying goes, "what has ADV done for me lately?" Heck they
took
away my beloved Nuku Nuku OAV's so they have lost all of my love,
LOST IT!
>> Except isn't ADV trying to push their own channel? Which most cable
>> systems probably don't carry, and those that do have it on a digital
>> tier because there are already too damn many channels?
>
> Megane: If ADV goes down, this is why. They tried to license a bunch
> of lesser titles to expose them on Anime Network -- and it didn't
> take.
Because no one is going to pay for something when they can get free and
better shows on CN.
Ethan Hammond
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:51:24 GMT, Ethan Hammond wrote:
>
>> When was the last time ADV was able to snipe an A title?
>> that is where you get the audience.
>
> Or the SF Channel, the SF CHANNEL!
Nuku Nuku is sci fi ish! Redeemed yourself ADV, REDEEM!
Ethan Hammond
news:46b4a952...@news.individual.net...
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:55:42 GMT, "Ethan Hammond"
>
> Or make them available for download, DOWNLOAD! (shakes BitTorrent)
When my beloved OAV's come back then they will get money again,
but not until that day, until the OAV's are purchasable, PURCHASABLE!
Ethan Hammond
Masterforce, or Victory? If ADV was smart, and judging by
how they treated my beloved Nuku Nuku OAV's they obviously
are not, they should, buy the rights to those and put them on the
anime channel and DVD. I would actually buy them, BUY THEM!
OAK
> "SpaceGirl" <nothespac...@subhuman.net> wrote in message
> news:5hj5n3F...@mid.individual.net...
>> Arne Luft wrote:
>>
>> It worries me. Think of really GOOD anime like Serial Experiments Lain.
>> It's not mainstream, I doubt many people outside of hardcore anime
>> circles would ever see it. It doesn't taste like a big hit commercial
>> anime.
>>
>> So I guess this also means that anime that may not look like a
>> mass-market hit, regardless of other merits (good story, wonderful art)
>> will get over looked for generic rubbish that WILL sell?
>
> Releasing series on DVD is a business, BUSINESS!
Lain has already appeared on TV. It was shown on KTEH (public television)
in San Jose, California. It was very popular.
Regards,
OAK
Ethan Hammond
news:46b56e14$0$27542$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
So was Urusei Yatsura! Curse you and your public television
glory!
OAK
> "OAK" <O...@Bigtree.net> wrote in message
> news:46b56e14$0$27542$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 06:13:19 +0000, Ethan Hammond wrote:
>>
>>> Releasing series on DVD is a business, BUSINESS!
>>
>> Lain has already appeared on TV. It was shown on KTEH (public
>> television) in San Jose, California. It was very popular.
>
> So was Urusei Yatsura! Curse you and your public television glory!
Sadly, they've stopped showing anime. The broadcast license was too
expensive. But it was great while it lasted. UY and Tenchi on KTEH was the
first anime I ever saw.
Regards,
OAK
sanjian
> "sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
> news:f91mmo$cn7$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
>> Ethan Hammond wrote:
>>
>>> Is Ouran a shonen series that will appeal to teenagers and be aired
>>> on CN?
>>
>> Quite possibly.
>
> I have never heard of it either, EITHER!
Somehow... that does not surprise me.
Galen
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>What if we mix it w/ the t-virus and las plagas, perhaps all hope
>is not yet lost, LOST!
-
Phil Yff
> In article <l1sdt60b8i9w$.f8ld16yiew4h$.d...@40tude.net>, Phil Yff
> <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:15:56 -0400, Derek Janssen wrote:
>>
>>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
>>> audience--Unfortunately, they tend to overdo it when picking their
>>> "A"-title guesses and reasons thereof.
>>
>> Neon Genesis Evangelion?
>>
> They massively overpaid for it at the time, so much so they passed on
> the movies. Younger fans probably don't remember that Eva was a) one of
> the first wave of tv series to be released subtitled in the US, and b)
> paired with Blue Seed as far a advertising and release schedule went.
> Blue Seed did poorly (they had to drop volume numbers from the second
> half to trick stores into stocking new volumes) while Eva did great.
I seem to recall that you were much more enthusiastic about Blue Seed ten
years ago. ^-^
Mata ato de,
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
>>> Never heard of Ouran, but I'm assuming it's going after a different
>>> audience then Chevalier. Things that are a C title with "anime" fans
>>> may be a potential A title if you get it noticed by a different group.
>>> The main problem is that US anime companies haven't been able to do
>>> that for the most part. We need to get Oprah to like a couple shows...
>>
>> If you've never heard of Ouran, you should come out from under the rock. I
>> mean, seriously, disagreement over which show was better is one thing, but
>> not to have heard of it?
>>
> Where would I have heard of it? I honestly pay no attention to
> anything, be it music, anime, or movies, until I notice it in a store
> (online or local) or see an ad or review in passing. I'm an old fart
> well past caring about some things.
>
> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got anything
> that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
I think you'll find Ouran to be far more complex than its description on
Wikipedia. It works on many levels. The many allusions better appeal to a
38 year old than a 14 year old.
Phil Yff
>> Or make them available for download, DOWNLOAD! (shakes BitTorrent)
>
> When my beloved OAV's come back then they will get money again,
> but not until that day, until the OAV's are purchasable, PURCHASABLE!
You mean you never bought the OAVs, NEVER BOUGHT THEM? ^-^
Rob Kelk
wrote:
<snip>
>And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
Do any of the anime companies know how to market anything?
On the off-chance that any industry representative is reading this
thread, I'd like to make a few comments regarding marketing anime.
In general: You are providing luxury items to a niche market. You need
us; we don't need you, although we want you. Many companies have
forgotten this, and have gone by the wayside.
In specific:
1: The opening credit sequences are *_not_* designed to be informative
trailers. Please stop treating them as if they were.
The only thing this style of "trailer" tells people is that you've
licenced the title. It tells us nothing about the show itself. Most of
your audience doesn't read AnimeOnDVD.com or rec.arts.anime.misc, and
the ones who do aren't going to remember every detail about every show.
We need to be told what the show is about, not just that it exists.
(Yes, I'm looking at you, Geneon - you could have gotten me to buy
"Starship Operators" and "Stellvia" at full price if you'd given them
actual trailers; as it was, I waited for the massive-discount sales to
get both series, and you most probably took a loss on the DVDs instead
of making a profit. What other good shows am I missing because you can't
be bothered to tell me anything about them?)
2: Using in-crowd slang-of-the-day in your advertising drives away the
people who aren't in the in-crowd. It also makes your product look
dated as soon as the slang-of-the-day changes.
Related to this, using _outdated_ slang-of-the-day makes you appear out
of touch with your customers.
(Yes, I'm looking at you, ADV - I still want somebody to translate the
slang-filled back-cover copy on some of your recent releases into
English, so I can find out whether I'd be interested in the shows.)
3: If you're going to release a box-set in a different style than the
original release, please don't remove the original release from
distribution immediately. You're only alienating customers who bought
part of the original release but for whatever reason didn't have a
chance to complete it that way.
(Yes, I'm looking at you again, ADV - your "stripbox" format is annoying
enough as it is [cue Dave Watson], but removing the full-featured
releases from distribution as soon as the stripbox is available only
pisses off people who thought that the distribution network would
actually deliver all of the singles on time... or ever.)
4: If you realize you've made a mistake in the advertising, go back and
fix it as soon as you can. Don't think you can get away with
misinforming the buyers about the product - we're not stupid, and we
*_will_* remember the misinformation the next time you release
something.
(Yes, I'm looking at you, Viz - how many people were disappointed with
the first few volumes of your so-called "martial arts sex comedy" and
didn't bother picking up any more of the series? How many of them would
have continued if you had marketed "Ranma 1/2" as a relationship comedy
with fight scenes to begin with? And how long did you perpetuate that
advertising error?)
5: People like to own things. Downloads are well and good for sampling a
show, but actual physical media is still important for us "old fogeys"
who can actually afford to buy your products.
(I'm not looking at anyone in particular just yet, except maybe iTunes.
I *like* having DVDs that I can play in any DVD player; that makes it
easy to show anime to friends who might like it enough to buy it as
well.)
6: North America is not Japan - techniques that work on one side of the
Pacific might not work on the other side. Know your audience.
(Yes, I'm looking at you, Bandai Visual - just because the Japanese will
buy DVDs with so few episodes on them doesn't mean we will. Take a cue
from Bandai Entertainment as to what packaging formats work in North
America, please. And that includes the pricing of the formats...)
7: Your core audience, while important (they're your bread-and-butter),
isn't going to keep you in business forever. People's tastes change,
and their tastes are going to move away from your products sooner or
later. You have to expand your advertising to mainstream audiences in
order to grow, and if that means putting your shows up against each
other on different networks, then that's what you have to do.
(Yes, I'm looking at you yet again, ADV - only "ADV fans", and there
aren't very many of them, watch the ADV Channel. Anime fans watch
Cartoon Network or YTV, depending on which side of the US-Canada border
they're on. But don't stop there - imagine how many sales of "Princess
Tutu" you could make if it was aired on a general-arts channel, for one
example. [And that doesn't just apply to ADV. Imagine what would happen
to the sales of "Speed Racer", "Initial D", and "eX-Driver" if they were
aired on the NASCAR Channel weekday mornings, or "Zipang" and "Bubblegum
Crisis" if they were on Sci-Fi...])
I'm sure there are more marketing blunders to rant about , but that's
all that comes to mind just now.
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
stonehand
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ErVsi.396350$p47.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Aya the Vampire Slayer" <ry...@gehennom.rmv.this.part.net> wrote in
message
> news:f8vp3o$7fm$1...@news-int2.gatech.edu...
> > Arne Luft <ne...@yhsg3.invalid> wa:
> >
> > Slayers. Also A material. Ridiculously popular despite dubious
> > production values and lack of being aired on TV (AFAIK).
>
> It did air on the International Channel IIRC.
>
> --
> All Purpose Culture Randomness
> http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Rob Kelk
ROFL!
"Two mechs claim they're Optimus - one of them must be wrong..."
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
Travers Naran
> trailers. Please stop treating them as if they were.
Heh. I had to keep that one because it SO ticks me off. Funimation's
trailer for Kiddy Grade is an excellent example of how to do it. The
trailer was better than the show!
> 7: Your core audience, while important (they're your bread-and-butter),
> isn't going to keep you in business forever. People's tastes change,
> and their tastes are going to move away from your products sooner or
> later. You have to expand your advertising to mainstream audiences in
> order to grow, and if that means putting your shows up against each
> other on different networks, then that's what you have to do.
Marketing to the mainstream is dangerous. It drives out releases that
the core audience would have liked. A better approach might be, "Don't
assume all anime is for the base; some might find friends outside of the
otaku crowd". For example, "Tokyo Godfathers" found a friendly
reception outside of fandom. Haibane Renmei and GitS:SAC won over one
of my anime-hating friends.
> (Yes, I'm looking at you yet again, ADV - only "ADV fans", and there
> aren't very many of them, watch the ADV Channel. Anime fans watch
> Cartoon Network or YTV, depending on which side of the US-Canada border
> they're on. But don't stop there - imagine how many sales of "Princess
> Tutu" you could make if it was aired on a general-arts channel, for one
> example. [And that doesn't just apply to ADV. Imagine what would happen
> to the sales of "Speed Racer", "Initial D", and "eX-Driver" if they were
> aired on the NASCAR Channel weekday mornings, or "Zipang" and "Bubblegum
> Crisis" if they were on Sci-Fi...])
There has been attempts to do that. GTO was on Showtime. Several
titles have made their way to MTV (Razer in Canada). In the age of
Tivo, you really don't need to worry about channels that much, but you
do need someway of getting the word out that a show is out there.
Maybe what you really want is advertising and communication outside of
anime conventions? You know, like sending review copies to the critics
of mainstream newspapers and media shows? I discovered while reading
the reviews for the Cowboy Bebop movie that Mainstream critics LIKED
Cowboy Bebop. They had found out about it by watching Cartoon Network's
Adult Swim. It's not like anyone was sending review copies or anything.
For me, the more important thing is to create a better economic climate
for anime. Also, to give the core audience what it wants.
1. Simultaneous releases. Some projects have been pre-licensed and are
big enough that there should be a release available in English when the
first episodes hit Japan.
2. Japanese distributors need to get over themselves and drop the price
of their product. With things like Winny, Japanese otaku are pirating
like mad. And because of the price problem, it messes with the release
schedules of English DVDs. Take the hint, Japan, and drop your prices!
3. Open formats. Or more specifically, plug-ins so we can download a
fansub's group script and play it on a legally bought DVD. Or for
simultaneous releases via a web distributor (iTunes), the ability to add
a URL to an alternate subtitle set. Some of us like fansub translations
because they were done with more care and attention than the
professional releases. (I won't mention names)
4. Service subs for B-titles and below. If you don't think it's going
to sell, arrange for an on-line distribution of the episodes with a
service sub shortly after they air in Japan. Add in #3 above, and
you've legalized and monetized the fan-sub trade. It becomes a cheap
way to road-test an anime. Like the way Broadway producers road-test
their productions in Peoria.
To me, improving the prices and money flow-through would help anime
more. As the cherry on top, selective targeting of certain titles for
mainstream marketing.
> I'm sure there are more marketing blunders to rant about , but that's
> all that comes to mind just now.
Having seen what happened when SF was marketed to the masses post-Star
Wars, I'm perfectly happy being in a niche. :-)
--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
Aje RavenStar
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:32:59 -0400, Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
>
> Do any of the anime companies know how to market anything?
>
> On the off-chance that any industry representative is reading this
> thread, I'd like to make a few comments regarding marketing anime.
>
>
> In general: You are providing luxury items to a niche market. You need
> us; we don't need you, although we want you. Many companies have
> forgotten this, and have gone by the wayside.
>
>
> I'm sure there are more marketing blunders to rant about , but that's
> all that comes to mind just now.
>
Heh. I was putting an old tape I had of the Beatles A Hard Day's Night onto
DVD yesterday while the tape still worked. I was in the room when one of my
favorite bits, George vs. the marketing department, came on:
(from
http://oldies.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.geocities.com/classicmoviescripts/script/ahdn.htm ,
almost all the way down for the full bit.)
A collection of shirts are produced and GEORGE looks at them. While he is
doing this SIMON briefs him.
SIMON
Now, you'll like these. You really "dig" them. They're "fab" and all the
other pimply hyperboles.
GEORGE
I wouldn't be seen dead in them. They're dead grotty.
SIMON
Grotty?
GEORGE
Yeah, grotesque.
SIMON
(to secretary)
Make a note of that word and give it to Susan. I think it's rather
touching really. Here's this kid trying to give me his utterly valueless
opinion when I know for a fact within four weeks he'll be suffering from a
violent
inferiority complex and loss of status if he isn't wearing one of these
nasty things. Of course they're grotty, you wretched nit, that's why they
were designed, but that's what you'll want.
GEORGE
But I won't.
SIMON
You can be replaced you know, chicky baby.
GEORGE
I don't care.
SIMON
And that pose is out too, Sunny Jim. The new thing is to care
passionately, and be right
wing. Anyway, you won't meet Susan if you don't cooperate.
GEORGE
And who's this Susan when she's at home?
SIMON
(playing his ace)
Only Susan Campey, our resident teenager. You'll have to love her. She's
your symbol.
GEORGE
Oh, you mean that posh bird who gets everything wrong?
SIMON
I beg your pardon?
GEORGE
Oh, yes, the lads frequently gather round the T.V. set to watch her for a
giggle. Once we
even all sat down and wrote these letters saying how gear she was and all
that rubbish.
SIMON
She's a trend setter. It's her profession!
GEORGE
She's a drag. A well-known drag. We turn the sound down on her and say
rude things.
---
Turned to the wife right after and remarked how Marketing departments
haven't chanced in 40 years. She just nodded.
Phil Yff
>>>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
>>>> audience--Unfortunately,
>>>> they tend to overdo it when picking their "A"-title guesses and reasons
>>>> thereof.
>>>
>>> Do they still put a half hour of bs ads on their DVD's
>>> that play automatically before the feature? Put that
>>> stuff in the extras, or run ads on the tee vee.
>>
>> Yes and that practice goes back to their VHS days, THEIR VHS DAYS!
>
> They need to bring back the Nuku Nuku OAV's to regain
> there former glory, REGAIN IT! Also they need to get
> shows on CN, but mainly the Nuku Nuku part! Maybe
> they should also start selling hentai again like da good ole
> days!
Samurai XXX ^-^
Mata ato de,
phil Yff
Phil Yff
>>
>> I'm thinking the old fart is letting his preferences shadow just who won the
>> acquisition war. Even if he prefers Chevalier, it's clear that ADV didn't
>> win this battle. Funimation got the supertitle.
>>
> And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
There we are in complete agreement.
Phil Yff
> Invid Fan wrote:
>> In article <f91mlt$cn2$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> star...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking
>>>>> up Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first
>>>>> and got
>>>>> the best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more
>>>>> rapidly - they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this
>>>>> month. As a final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch
>>>>> and matches the splendor of the series.
>>>>
>>>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con
>>>> and had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>>>
>>>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>>>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>>>
>>>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking the old fart is letting his preferences shadow just who
>>> won the acquisition war. Even if he prefers Chevalier, it's clear
>>> that ADV didn't win this battle. Funimation got the supertitle.
>>>
>> And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
>
> Quite possibly. ADV seems to have residual Woodhead Syndrome. It drifted
> over from AnimEigo and laid dormant for a few years.
Ironic because it was the Woodhead Syndrome that allowed ADV to leapfrog
over AnimEigo.
Phil Yff
> Phil Yff wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:01:45 -0700, star...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 3, 9:08 am, Phil Yff <phil....@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking
>>>> up Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and
>>>> got the best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving
>>>> more rapidly - they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out
>>>> this month. As a final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is
>>>> top-notch and matches the splendor of the series.
>>>
>>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con
>>> and had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>>
>>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>>
>>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>>>
>> Ouran is a show for Otakus. It's tailor made for a con with all its
>> manga and anime in-jokes. I think you're making my case for me.
>> Ouran, which I like BTW, is anime for fans. Chevalier, because it is
>
> If you're watching Ouran for the in-jokes, you're missing 99.998% of the
> series. You're making a fetish of the incidentals.
The in-jokes are just the icing on the cake. I was referring to why it
would be the perfect choice for a con. I'm a huge fan of Ouran as you can
tell from my posts when it was airing in Japan. However, I also think
Chevalier has been underrated.
Invid Fan
Nerd <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
> In article <040820072150524232%in...@localnet.com>,
> Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <Xns9982D6F44D848...@216.196.97.136>, Glenn
> > Shaw <tog...@comnet.cast> wrote:
> >
> > > Captain Nerd wrote:
> > >
> > > > Invid Fan wrote:
> > >
> > > <regarding Ouran>
> > >
> > > >> Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
> > > >> immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got
> > > >> anything that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
> > > >
> > > > Ouran may be too old for you, this 49 year old quite enjoyed it.
> > >
> > > As did this 43 year old, even though I've only seen about 8 or so
> > > episodes
> > > so far. (I've decided to hold off on the rest until Funi releases the
> > > DVDs
> > > here.)
> >
> > Good to see that it's to everyone else's taste :)
>
> I have a feeling if you watched the first episode you'd be hooked,
> too, unless you don't care for absurd humor. The show has good
> characterization, the comic timing is extremely sharp, and they
> play with a lot of the cliche situations in non-standard ways
> enough to maintain interest.
>
Oh, I'm sure it's a wonderful show. I just don't care for what it
appears to be, a "screwball romantic comedy [which] focuses on the
relationships within and without the Club and satirizes the clichés and
stereotypes that endure in series aimed at girls."
> And I was just tweakin' you on the "anime for 38 year olds" bit
> above...
>
What tweakin'? I was referring to mental age...
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Phil Yff
>
> ADV gets left behind -- again.
>
ADV may not be the most profitable company right now considering what
Geneo, Viz Media, Funimation, etc. are doing. However, 'left behind' is a
poor choice of words when ADV has been the speediest in bringing their
properties to the North American market following their release in Japan.
Invid Fan
<phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:33:01 -0400, Invid Fan wrote:
>
> > In article <l1sdt60b8i9w$.f8ld16yiew4h$.d...@40tude.net>, Phil Yff
> > <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:15:56 -0400, Derek Janssen wrote:
> >>
> >>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
> >>> audience--Unfortunately, they tend to overdo it when picking their
> >>> "A"-title guesses and reasons thereof.
> >>
> >> Neon Genesis Evangelion?
> >>
> > They massively overpaid for it at the time, so much so they passed on
> > the movies. Younger fans probably don't remember that Eva was a) one of
> > the first wave of tv series to be released subtitled in the US, and b)
> > paired with Blue Seed as far a advertising and release schedule went.
> > Blue Seed did poorly (they had to drop volume numbers from the second
> > half to trick stores into stocking new volumes) while Eva did great.
>
> I seem to recall that you were much more enthusiastic about Blue Seed ten
> years ago. ^-^
>
I didn't say anything negative about it, just that ADV bought two shows
and batted .500 :) It's silly to say getting EVA showed they knew what
they were doing when the other series they thought would do well
didn't. You have to keep things in historical perspective... As for how
I see the shows, I liked both.
Invid Fan
<phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
Very possibly true, but then I'm rather strange in some respects :)
Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
thing?
sanjian
> 2: Using in-crowd slang-of-the-day in your advertising drives away the
> people who aren't in the in-crowd. It also makes your product look
> dated as soon as the slang-of-the-day changes.
>
> Related to this, using _outdated_ slang-of-the-day makes you appear
> out of touch with your customers.
>
> (Yes, I'm looking at you, ADV - I still want somebody to translate the
> slang-filled back-cover copy on some of your recent releases into
> English, so I can find out whether I'd be interested in the shows.)
Make sure you look at Rika Takahashi, too.
None the less, this is my biggest peeve. If I wanted to watch American pop
culture, I would watch American pop culture. Clearly, though, that is not
my desire. So don't force it into my anime. Rayearth does not have
anything to do with Dana Carvey, so I don't want to hear anything about
Fuuster or Umister.
Phil Yff
>>> Bottom line is Funimation is certainly to be commended for picking up
>>> Ouran. However, ADV did not miss the boat. ADV moved first and got
>>> the best 2006-2007 property. Moreover, ADV has been moving more
>>> rapidly - they've released three DVDs so far with a fourth out this
>>> month. As a final note, ADV's packaging of Chevalier is top-notch
>>> and matches the splendor of the series.
>>
>> Call me when they had a marathon of Chevalier d'Eon at a major con and
>> had to turn away people for over half of it.
>>
>> I mean, you want an audience at your screening room? Schedule Ouran
>> and watch all the powder-blue blazers run.
>>
>> Ouran was the Grand Prize.
>
> I'm thinking the old fart is letting his preferences shadow just who won the
> acquisition war. Even if he prefers Chevalier, it's clear that ADV didn't
> win this battle. Funimation got the supertitle.
I think you missed my point. ADV and Funimation both have impressive lists
of titles. Chevalier and Ouran are both great titles and I have previously
posted articles on both shows reflecting how much I like them. The point I
was commenting on was the implication that ADV had missed the boat when
other companies should follow ADV's example in rapidly bringing properties
to the North American market.
Invid Fan
<tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote:
> > 7: Your core audience, while important (they're your bread-and-butter),
> > isn't going to keep you in business forever. People's tastes change,
> > and their tastes are going to move away from your products sooner or
> > later. You have to expand your advertising to mainstream audiences in
> > order to grow, and if that means putting your shows up against each
> > other on different networks, then that's what you have to do.
>
> Marketing to the mainstream is dangerous. It drives out releases that
> the core audience would have liked. A better approach might be, "Don't
> assume all anime is for the base; some might find friends outside of the
> otaku crowd". For example, "Tokyo Godfathers" found a friendly
> reception outside of fandom. Haibane Renmei and GitS:SAC won over one
> of my anime-hating friends.
>
There are shows that WON'T appeal to their core audience, but may well
do nicely with someone elses core audience. Let's take, for example,
Chevalier. Here was have a historical action romance set in
pre-revolutionary France with vampires. Surely you'd want to market it
to romance readers, fans of Buffy or Dark Shadows, etc...
Chika
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
> anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
> from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
> thing?
Interesting. Trouble is that it seems that most anime where the main chara
is an outsider seem to concentrate on getting said outsider integrated
with the mainstream. Not that misfits don't occur; 801TTS Airbats, for
example, contains an entire group of misfits, but they end up coming
together as a team.
I suppose you could consider Yomiko Readman (ROD) as a close contender for
Daria but she isn't a cynic, so no cigar there.
You might consider some of the "ninja" females of shows such as Ninja
Scroll or Kamui No Ken, but would they be disqualified on age grounds, and
could you consider them to actually be cynics? Besides, Daria would be
nothing without pizza!
To be honest, I can find more charas with things in common with Quinn and
the fashion club than I can with Daria!
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// "Word to the wise guy; be nice or be dog food!"
... Plasma is another matter.
Aje RavenStar
"Invid Fan" <in...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:050820071432541561%in...@localnet.com...
> In article <H2nti.93688$xk5.31012@edtnps82>, Travers Naran
> <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote:
>
>> > 7: Your core audience, while important (they're your bread-and-butter),
>> > isn't going to keep you in business forever. People's tastes change,
>> > and their tastes are going to move away from your products sooner or
>> > later. You have to expand your advertising to mainstream audiences in
>> > order to grow, and if that means putting your shows up against each
>> > other on different networks, then that's what you have to do.
>>
>> Marketing to the mainstream is dangerous. It drives out releases that
>> the core audience would have liked. A better approach might be, "Don't
>> assume all anime is for the base; some might find friends outside of the
>> otaku crowd". For example, "Tokyo Godfathers" found a friendly
>> reception outside of fandom. Haibane Renmei and GitS:SAC won over one
>> of my anime-hating friends.
>>
> There are shows that WON'T appeal to their core audience, but may well
> do nicely with someone elses core audience. Let's take, for example,
> Chevalier. Here was have a historical action romance set in
> pre-revolutionary France with vampires. Surely you'd want to market it
> to romance readers, fans of Buffy or Dark Shadows, etc...
And now would be a good time to hit fans of that last. I understand DS is
coming to the big screen, with Johnny Depp being considered for Barnabas C.
Derek Janssen
>
>>And ADV probably doesn't know how to market shows like Chevalier.
>
> Do any of the anime companies know how to market anything?
>
> trailers. Please stop treating them as if they were.
> The only thing this style of "trailer" tells people is that you've
> licenced the title. It tells us nothing about the show itself. Most of
> your audience doesn't read AnimeOnDVD.com or rec.arts.anime.misc, and
> the ones who do aren't going to remember every detail about every show.
> We need to be told what the show is about, not just that it exists.
> (Yes, I'm looking at you, Geneon - you could have gotten me to buy
> "Starship Operators" and "Stellvia" at full price if you'd given them
> actual trailers; as it was, I waited for the massive-discount sales to
> get both series, and you most probably took a loss on the DVDs instead
> of making a profit. What other good shows am I missing because you can't
> be bothered to tell me anything about them?)
Actually, the market outside of Geneon and ADV has been moving back more
to the "Narrated trailer" style (in trying to find something different
to say about, say, "Black Cat" that would actually make it look like a
different action show than five or six others)--
While ADV podcasts its Anime Channel "Anime Dojo" series, which gives a
three-minute "Okay, here's the story:" promo and one-minute excerpt.
Suffice to say, I've learned more about puzzling Artsy-Action series
from these straightforward descriptions than from any other source.
Nice that they're remembering how to do it.
> 4: If you realize you've made a mistake in the advertising, go back and
> fix it as soon as you can. Don't think you can get away with
> misinforming the buyers about the product - we're not stupid, and we
> *_will_* remember the misinformation the next time you release
> something.
>
> (Yes, I'm looking at you, Viz - how many people were disappointed with
> the first few volumes of your so-called "martial arts sex comedy" and
> didn't bother picking up any more of the series? How many of them would
> have continued if you had marketed "Ranma 1/2" as a relationship comedy
> with fight scenes to begin with? And how long did you perpetuate that
> advertising error?)
I think that was intentional--
Remember this was the days when anime companies were trying to find
western translations of established Japanese genre names, and
"Love-comedy" was translated too literally.
> 5: People like to own things. Downloads are well and good for sampling a
> show, but actual physical media is still important for us "old fogeys"
> who can actually afford to buy your products.
>
> (I'm not looking at anyone in particular just yet, except maybe iTunes.
> I *like* having DVDs that I can play in any DVD player; that makes it
> easy to show anime to friends who might like it enough to buy it as
> well.)
Actually, you should be looking at everyone EXCEPT iTunes--
Apple at least has *SOME* kind of ownership scheme, in that you can keep
a virtual Funi Kiddy Grade or Samurai 7 episode on your iPod. It ain't
DVD, but for those who do own an iPod, it's still ownership (and looks
better than trying to figure out some illegal way of ripping the disk).
Everyone else is trying to figure out how you can watch it for 24
right-protected hours on some weird and dysfunctional Windows Media
application, which means half your audience can't get in the door, and
the other half is struggling with how to buy the darn product.
> 6: North America is not Japan - techniques that work on one side of the
> Pacific might not work on the other side. Know your audience.
>
> (Yes, I'm looking at you, Bandai Visual - just because the Japanese will
> buy DVDs with so few episodes on them doesn't mean we will. Take a cue
> from Bandai Entertainment as to what packaging formats work in North
> America, please. And that includes the pricing of the formats...)
And that also includes TV ratings:
An exporter may sell you raves on what a rampaging hit "Lucky Star" is
with Tokyo audiences, but that doesn't mean much over here. And if he
does believe it himself, that's part of the problem...It's a cultural thing.
Disney was once forced to learn the painful lesson that what the
Japanese think is "cool" or "genius" and gets lines around theater
blocks doesn't ALWAYS play in Peoria, USA (and that was forced on them
by well-intentioned studios based on local ratings, too)--
There's "grabbing" a show when it's up for the grabbing, and then
there's knowing what the heck to do with it once you've got it.
> (Yes, I'm looking at you yet again, ADV - only "ADV fans", and there
> aren't very many of them, watch the ADV Channel. Anime fans watch
> Cartoon Network or YTV, depending on which side of the US-Canada border
> they're on.
And that's because most systems don't carry tiny, struggling on-demand
marketing outreaches...They carry big established channels supported by
commercial advertisers. The audience doesn't like to pay extra to watch
a show, you see.
> But don't stop there - imagine how many sales of "Princess
> Tutu" you could make if it was aired on a general-arts channel, for one
> example. [And that doesn't just apply to ADV. Imagine what would happen
> to the sales of "Speed Racer", "Initial D", and "eX-Driver" if they were
> aired on the NASCAR Channel weekday mornings, or "Zipang" and "Bubblegum
> Crisis" if they were on Sci-Fi...])
(Uh, Sci-Fi, given, but "Tutu" on Bravo?--
Why is this starting to sound like those cable-illiterate anti-PBS
Republicans saying "Cartoon Network could show 'Curious George'! :-P "
^_^ )
Bearing in mind the "cultural difference" thing, it would be nice to see
more anime, but Recommend-itis can apply as much to peaceful unassuming
non-anime cable demographics as to the newbie fan forced to watch
Evangelion--
You must first invite your audience in before blasting them with
overenthusiasm...Let's stop and think realistically about that "Showing
ex-Driver to NASCAR fans" for a moment, shall we? 9_9
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Phil Yff
>>>> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:15:56 -0400, Derek Janssen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ADV thinks it has enough marketing to "guess" its
>>>>> audience--Unfortunately, they tend to overdo it when picking their
>>>>> "A"-title guesses and reasons thereof.
>>>>
>>>> Neon Genesis Evangelion?
>>>>
>>> They massively overpaid for it at the time, so much so they passed on
>>> the movies. Younger fans probably don't remember that Eva was a) one of
>>> the first wave of tv series to be released subtitled in the US, and b)
>>> paired with Blue Seed as far a advertising and release schedule went.
>>> Blue Seed did poorly (they had to drop volume numbers from the second
>>> half to trick stores into stocking new volumes) while Eva did great.
>>
>> I seem to recall that you were much more enthusiastic about Blue Seed ten
>> years ago. ^-^
>>
> I didn't say anything negative about it, just that ADV bought two shows
> and batted .500 :) It's silly to say getting EVA showed they knew what
> they were doing when the other series they thought would do well
> didn't. You have to keep things in historical perspective... As for how
> I see the shows, I liked both.
I liked both, too, and realized that Blue Seed was less than a marketing
success. However, I believe Blue Seed was underrated. Whereas the
phenomenal EVA faltered at the end, Blue Seed intensified. In 97, there
were very few complete series on shelves in North American stores. Blue
Seed was one of the few.
Aje RavenStar
"Chika" <miy...@spam-no-way.invalid> wrote in message
news:4f0dbaed...@no.spam.here...
> In article <050820071422022434%in...@localnet.com>,
> Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
>> anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
>> from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
>> thing?
>
> Interesting. Trouble is that it seems that most anime where the main chara
> is an outsider seem to concentrate on getting said outsider integrated
> with the mainstream. Not that misfits don't occur; 801TTS Airbats, for
> example, contains an entire group of misfits, but they end up coming
> together as a team.
>
> I suppose you could consider Yomiko Readman (ROD) as a close contender for
> Daria but she isn't a cynic, so no cigar there.
>
young, and not inclined to put up with a lot of adult 'whitewashes'.
Two actual school 'outsiders' can be found in World of Narue - the title
character, and her original main protagonist Yagi Hajimi. For the first,
forces 'outside' the school setting set her apart; for the second, forces
'inside' do so. Fortunately, with some help from people close to both and a
bit of nasty gossip by the 'cool crowd', the two are able to recognize their
common ground eventually.
Derek Janssen
>
>>I'm sure there are more marketing blunders to rant about , but that's
>>all that comes to mind just now.
>
> Heh. I was putting an old tape I had of the Beatles A Hard Day's Night onto
> DVD yesterday while the tape still worked.
(Umm, you do know:
http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=5740087 ?
Been out for about two or three years now--Two disks, restored print,
and more featurettes than could be psychologically considered healthy. -_-)
Derek Janssen (have I said something amiss?)
eja...@comcast.net
Aje RavenStar
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cLCdnXcCKp7kvSvb...@comcast.com...
> Aje RavenStar wrote:
>>
>>>I'm sure there are more marketing blunders to rant about , but that's
>>>all that comes to mind just now.
>>
>> Heh. I was putting an old tape I had of the Beatles A Hard Day's Night
>> onto DVD yesterday while the tape still worked.
>
> (Umm, you do know:
> http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=5740087 ?
> Been out for about two or three years now--Two disks, restored print, and
> more featurettes than could be psychologically considered healthy. -_-)
I think I've seen that. This was recorded from either PBS or A&E (back when
it was Arts & Entertainment instead of Biography and Murders) though, and
has some of the commentary from those sources (some of which, like with the
K. Braunaugh's (sp?) version of "All's Well that Ends Well," is way off base
and embarassing). Also some old commercials, which we're saving for the
amusement of the grand nieces and nephews one of these days. The showing
was to mark the 10th anniversary of Lennon's death, so there are some
sentimental elements in there also.
sanjian
Exactly.
sanjian
My point is that these jokes had almost no bearing on the popularity of
Ouran. It would have been wildly successful with, or without them. In any
analysis of the show, they can be ignored.
My other point is that I would kill for steak right now.
David Johnston
wrote:
>In article <152du6vi0ex00.fc6krgwogrhl$.d...@40tude.net>, Phil Yff
><phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:32:54 -0400, Invid Fan wrote:
>>
>> > Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
>> > immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got anything
>> > that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
>>
>> I think you'll find Ouran to be far more complex than its description on
>> Wikipedia. It works on many levels. The many allusions better appeal to a
>> 38 year old than a 14 year old.
>>
>Very possibly true, but then I'm rather strange in some respects :)
>
>Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
>anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
>from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
>thing?
Um...actually Ouran is about as close as it gets. While technically
Haruhi is part of the Host Club's clique and one by one the members of
the club fall for her, she's definitely the odd man out, not so much
because of her cross-dressing as because she's the straight man who
has the job of reacting to the antic idiocy of the rich twits all
around her. She's the only poor person in a school of the
exaggeratedly wealthy. But...the series is more a mockery of anime
and manga stereotypes than it about actual schools.
Midori-no-Hibi is another possibility since the macho-man hero with
the girl for a right hand is definitely cliqueless and an outsider who
doesn't particularly suffer from anything except being girlfriendless
because of his delinquent reputation, and the school he goes to is
something closer to reality, but he's no observer of the milieu around
him. He does his thing and they do their thing and never the twain
shall meet.
Which is the case with most isolates in anime. If they are actually
interested in the school, then they have a circle of friends from the
school. If they don't have friends in the school then they just
aren't interested in the school. They've got bigger things on their
minds.
David Johnston
wrote:
>Which is the case with most isolates in anime. If they are actually
>interested in the school, then they have a circle of friends from the
>school. If they don't have friends in the school then they just
>aren't interested in the school. They've got bigger things on their
>minds.
Then again, there's Wallflower. Sunako is kind of Daria-like in some
ways.
Derek Janssen
Okay, as old-school AnimEigo frustratee, I can picture a hundred things
that *might* be termed "Woodhead Syndrome" (most of them attributable to
still pretending it's the birth of an industry when it's been out for a
few years now), but which one SHOULD I be thinking of?
Derek Janssen
eja...@cocmast.net
Derek Janssen
>>
>>Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
>>anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
>>from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
>>thing?
Well, we do get the Azumanga episode where Kagura envies the "Go-home
Club" for getting to do what they want and not always being tied to
sports practice...
(Tomo: "The only part of 'freedom' we have is the 'dumb' part!")
The main characters don't do much observing, but they clearly don't fall
into established patterns, either.
> Um...actually Ouran is about as close as it gets. While technically
> Haruhi is part of the Host Club's clique and one by one the members of
> the club fall for her, she's definitely the odd man out, not so much
> because of her cross-dressing as because she's the straight man who
> has the job of reacting to the antic idiocy of the rich twits all
> around her. She's the only poor person in a school of the
> exaggeratedly wealthy. But...the series is more a mockery of anime
> and manga stereotypes than it about actual schools.
Keep thinking you're referring to Haruhi Suzumiya, who might also qualify.
Derek Janssen (who only just watched "Battle Waitress Mikuru-kun", and
is waiting for the contextual explanation)
eja...@comcast.net
sanjian
You credited ADV with getting the prime title. However, that is a claim
that is dubious at best.
Galen
wrote:
>In article <152du6vi0ex00.fc6krgwogrhl$.d...@40tude.net>, Phil Yff
><phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:32:54 -0400, Invid Fan wrote:
>>
>> > Ah. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and can see it's the type of show I'd
>> > immediately ignore and forget if I saw it on the shelf :) Got anything
>> > that'll appeal to a 38 year old?
>>
>> I think you'll find Ouran to be far more complex than its description on
>> Wikipedia. It works on many levels. The many allusions better appeal to a
>> 38 year old than a 14 year old.
>>
>Very possibly true, but then I'm rather strange in some respects :)
>
>Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
>anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
>from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
>thing?
Isn't that what _Wallflower_ was all about? AKA
_Yamato_Nadeshiko_Shichi_Henge_
I think that the trouble is, in the Japanese (anime-style)
education system, someone like Daria would be bullied to
the point of a gang tossing her off a bridge. Teachers never
interfere with the students hurting each other, after all --
and sometimes are directing the murders from behind the
scenes.
-Galen
Derek Janssen
>
>>Actually, this is as good a place as any to ask this: are there any
>>anime similar to Daria? That is, not only looking at school and clicks
>>from the outside, but showing being an "outsider" as a mostly good
>>thing?
>
> Isn't that what _Wallflower_ was all about? AKA
> _Yamato_Nadeshiko_Shichi_Henge_
>
> I think that the trouble is, in the Japanese (anime-style)
> education system, someone like Daria would be bullied to
> the point of a gang tossing her off a bridge. Teachers never
> interfere with the students hurting each other, after all --
> and sometimes are directing the murders from behind the
> scenes.
And that's assuming they don't turn Hikkikomori first, like Jun from
Rozen Maiden, Sato from Welcome to the NHK, or...Sunako.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
sanjian
Failure to aggressively pursue and acquire top-performing titles. Though
ADV's strain is not as severe as AE's was.
Failure to adequately market titles. Though, at least ADV hasn't gone the
KOR pre-order route.
And suspicions of letting titles they like trump titles we like.