Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood
Arnold Kim
manga's winding down) and just wanted to know what people's thoughts are so
far.
Here are some of my own:
Now I loved the first anime series, that's what made me an FMA fan. Then I
discover the manga, and when I started to read vols. 9 and 10, that's pretty
much blew the doors off of the anime. There's more character development
for a greater variety of characters, the action is much more intense, the
villains are more intimidating and mysterious, and the plot is more complex
and larger in scope. And the manga takes a lot more risks; I really got the
feeling that no one is truly safe.
Brotherhood is not as good as the manga, because material has been shed, but
even with that in mind, I think it's now clearly shown to be much stronger
thatn the first series. I wasn't as much of a fan early on, having gone
through a lot of the material in the first dozen episodes earlier, but now
there's a lot of energy, the animation is fantastic, and while I wish a
little bit more of the character development from the manga was left in and
less of the jokes, I really can't complain about this adaptation.
Arnold Kim
Relic
When I started watching the new series, it looked like to me
they were trying to speed the story along so they could get to
where the stories split from one another (1st anime and the new
series), but once it did, the new story slowed down to a proper
pace and I'm really liking it.
People who haven't read the manga and have seen episode
37 of the original anime are gonna be in for a bit of a
shock...^_^
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I feel that the original series and Brotherhood are about equal.
Brotherhood, following the original manga, loses some of the cool things
of the original anime (for instance, the Homonculi are very different
and in many cases more complex characters; Dante is also a very
different, though not really any less frightening, final villain; and
some of the events and choices Ed has to make are pretty important if
you're looking at him as a person).
I *don't* like the fact that Brotherhood has used a lot more of the
Silly Crap than the first anime did. But on the other hand, Armstrong's
gotten more development, and will get more, and I think he's a cool
character.
Things are going to get ugly soon, though.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Arnold Kim
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:hdjlfe$445$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> I feel that the original series and Brotherhood are about equal.
> Brotherhood, following the original manga, loses some of the cool things
> of the original anime (for instance, the Homonculi are very different and
> in many cases more complex characters; Dante is also a very different,
> though not really any less frightening, final villain; and some of the
> events and choices Ed has to make are pretty important if you're looking
> at him as a person).
I think that Dante was a decent villain, but her and the homunculi are kind
of cliche in their motivations. Dante basically just wants to keep living;
the homunculi want to become human. I prefer the subtlety and mystery of
the villains in Brotherhood. They're less sympathetic, but more
frightening. I mean, Father considers humans to be so far beneath him that
they're below his judgment, like insects. Now that's scary.
And Envy's true form... that's like something out of a Lovecraftian
nightmare. O_O
> I *don't* like the fact that Brotherhood has used a lot more of the Silly
> Crap than the first anime did. But on the other hand, Armstrong's gotten
> more development, and will get more, and I think he's a cool character.
Plus the first anime didn't have the Xing characters, who rock.
I do like the way Mustang's been handled so far; his motivation being shaped
by the totality of his war experience rather than one dark moment feels more
realistic and powerful. Plus he's an even bigger and tougher ass-kicker
this time around- don't think anything he did in the first series compares
to Brotherhood episode 19.
> Things are going to get ugly soon, though.
In a good way.
Arnold Kim
Lee Ratner
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in messagenews:hdjlfe$445$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> I think that Dante was a decent villain, but her and the homunculi are kind
> of cliche in their motivations. Dante basically just wants to keep living;
> the homunculi want to become human. I prefer the subtlety and mystery of
> the villains in Brotherhood. They're less sympathetic, but more
> frightening. I mean, Father considers humans to be so far beneath him that
> they're below his judgment, like insects. Now that's scary.
>
evil sorceress, well alchemist, who wants eternal life and eternal
youth. The Homunculi were rather cliched to in their motivations.
Father is more freightening than Dante because of how mysterious he is
and his attitudes towards humans. The Homonculi are also more
freightening because they are more alien and more mysterious.
> And Envy's true form... that's like something out of a Lovecraftian
> nightmare. O_O
Envy's true form is one of the scariest things I've seen in
manga and anime, all those people crying out for help. Pride's true
form is rather scary to.
> > I *don't* like the fact that Brotherhood has used a lot more of the Silly
> > Crap than the first anime did. But on the other hand, Armstrong's gotten
> > more development, and will get more, and I think he's a cool character.
>
> Plus the first anime didn't have the Xing characters, who rock.
Manga and Brotherhood have much more in depth and less cartoony
characterilzations because they had more time to develop the
characters. I think that Scar comes acroos a lot better in the manga
and Brotherhood to.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:hdjlfe$445$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> I feel that the original series and Brotherhood are about equal.
>> Brotherhood, following the original manga, loses some of the cool things
>> of the original anime (for instance, the Homonculi are very different and
>> in many cases more complex characters; Dante is also a very different,
>> though not really any less frightening, final villain; and some of the
>> events and choices Ed has to make are pretty important if you're looking
>> at him as a person).
>
> I think that Dante was a decent villain, but her and the homunculi are kind
> of cliche in their motivations. Dante basically just wants to keep living;
> the homunculi want to become human.
Dante also saw herself as a god, controlling society. The homonculi had
MANY motivations -- and more diversity. We had a part-human homonculus
who just wanted his mommy, for instance.
Plus the terrible psychological implications of Sloth; if you accept
what happened with Wrath, Lust, and even Greed to an extent, these are
PEOPLE -- and some of them are, in fact, who they were in life. So if Ed
were to accept that, he and Al *SUCCEEDED* in bringing their mother
back, Dante messed with her head, and then Ed *killed* her.
I prefer the subtlety and mystery of
> the villains in Brotherhood. They're less sympathetic, but more
> frightening. I mean, Father considers humans to be so far beneath him that
> they're below his judgment, like insects. Now that's scary.
No, it's rather pedestrian to me. "I'm a massively powerful being who
thinks of you as ants". Yeah, big whoop, dude. You still had to
manipulate a broom-pusher into doing your work for you. And you're STILL
playing in the shadows. Men don't hide from insects, they step on them.
You're a big fraud.
>
> And Envy's true form... that's like something out of a Lovecraftian
> nightmare. O_O
It's pretty ugly, but I find Pride's to be worse and even more
Lovecraftian.
I find this Envy less interesting than the old one. In Brotherhood he's
just a total monster without any motivation except "I'm the Sin of Envy"
(and that's what kills him in the end). In the first anime, he actually
had some human aspects which had emotional resonance with him.
Arnold Kim
"Relic" <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:hdiv4k$9eu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The only issues I have are that they do too much of a literal interpretation
of the manga regarding the silly moments, and a lot was lost in the Ishbal
flashback in comparison to the manga. I understand why they took out so
much (spending -too- much time away from the main plot may have made viewers
restless), and it does seem like many of the scenes that were removed will
be sprinked in throughout the rest of the series, but I think it was better
served being told all in one shot, because the the emotional power of the
war drags on you the whole time. By the end of the volume, you really feel
Mustang's frustration. If it was up to me as a fan, and without any regard
as to the Japanese television business, I would have liked to see it as an
hour long (or longer) special.
Arnold Kim
sanjian
news:4afdab88$0$5019$607e...@cv.net...
> The only issues I have are that they do too much of a literal
> interpretation
> of the manga regarding the silly moments, and a lot was lost in the Ishbal
> flashback in comparison to the manga. I understand why they took out so
> much (spending -too- much time away from the main plot may have made
> viewers
> restless), and it does seem like many of the scenes that were removed will
> be sprinked in throughout the rest of the series, but I think it was
> better
> served being told all in one shot, because the the emotional power of the
> war drags on you the whole time. By the end of the volume, you really
> feel
> Mustang's frustration. If it was up to me as a fan, and without any
> regard
> as to the Japanese television business, I would have liked to see it as an
> hour long (or longer) special.
Oddly enough, I ended up respecting Kimbly more than Mustang, after the
flashback (not that I like Mustang less, but after the hatchet job they did
on Kimbly in the first series, he had farther to go). Now I understand why
Blade likes the character.
sanjian
>
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:hdjlfe$445$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> I feel that the original series and Brotherhood are about equal.
>> Brotherhood, following the original manga, loses some of the cool things
>> of the original anime (for instance, the Homonculi are very different and
>> in many cases more complex characters; Dante is also a very different,
>> though not really any less frightening, final villain; and some of the
>> events and choices Ed has to make are pretty important if you're looking
>> at him as a person).
>
> I think that Dante was a decent villain, but her and the homunculi are
> kind of cliche in their motivations. Dante basically just wants to keep
> living; the homunculi want to become human. I prefer the subtlety and
> mystery of the villains in Brotherhood. They're less sympathetic, but
> more frightening. I mean, Father considers humans to be so far beneath
> him that they're below his judgment, like insects. Now that's scary.
And he's very open about it, as if it's the most natural thing in the world.
It's never occured to him that there might be a reason for the hoomans to
take offense to such a thing. On the other hand, I did like Dante a bit
better, mainly because she's not omnipotent. She's just an alchemist...
granted, a powerful one, but not the best. That makes her more creepy, in
that she's the disaster you don't see coming - the "anyone can do this"
supervillian.
> And Envy's true form... that's like something out of a Lovecraftian
> nightmare. O_O
>
>> I *don't* like the fact that Brotherhood has used a lot more of the Silly
>> Crap than the first anime did. But on the other hand, Armstrong's gotten
>> more development, and will get more, and I think he's a cool character.
Bah. Armstrong has ALWAYS been made of win.
> Plus the first anime didn't have the Xing characters, who rock.
>
> I do like the way Mustang's been handled so far; his motivation being
> shaped by the totality of his war experience rather than one dark moment
> feels more realistic and powerful. Plus he's an even bigger and tougher
> ass-kicker this time around- don't think anything he did in the first
> series compares to Brotherhood episode 19.
I do lament the loss of the Metal vs. Flame duel, though.
sanjian
> Arnold Kim wrote:
> I find this Envy less interesting than the old one. In Brotherhood he's
> just a total monster without any motivation except "I'm the Sin of Envy"
> (and that's what kills him in the end). In the first anime, he actually
> had some human aspects which had emotional resonance with him.
On the other hand, Greed is as cool as ever. I wonder if it says anything
that he's my favorite in both series.
Lee Ratner
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in messagenews:hdk3mv$687$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > Arnold Kim wrote:
> > I find this Envy less interesting than the old one. In Brotherhood he's
> > just a total monster without any motivation except "I'm the Sin of Envy"
> > (and that's what kills him in the end). In the first anime, he actually
> > had some human aspects which had emotional resonance with him.
>
> On the other hand, Greed is as cool as ever. I wonder if it says anything
> that he's my favorite in both series.
Greed I of the manga and Brotherhood anime is practically the
same as the Greed of the first FMA anime. He underwent the fewest
changes.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Oh, Greed is MADE of cool, and Leed or Gring or whatever is doubly cool.
Zolf J. Kimblee is ALSO made of cool in this version. He's a psycho,
but in THIS version, he's a psycho a la Hannibal Lecter, not a complete
uncontrolled loon.
Arnold Kim
"Lee Ratner" <lbra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:65606325-4b5f-4187...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Well, except for his entire body...
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
> Arnold Kim wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>> news:hdjlfe$445$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> I feel that the original series and Brotherhood are about equal.
>>> Brotherhood, following the original manga, loses some of the cool things
>>> of the original anime (for instance, the Homonculi are very different
>>> and in many cases more complex characters; Dante is also a very
>>> different, though not really any less frightening, final villain; and
>>> some of the events and choices Ed has to make are pretty important if
>>> you're looking at him as a person).
>>
>> I think that Dante was a decent villain, but her and the homunculi are
>> kind of cliche in their motivations. Dante basically just wants to keep
>> living; the homunculi want to become human.
>
> Dante also saw herself as a god, controlling society. The homonculi had
> MANY motivations -- and more diversity. We had a part-human homonculus who
> just wanted his mommy, for instance.
Monsters trying to validate their own existence or find a place in the world
has been done before. The arrogance and horror of the homunculi in the
manga also has been done before, but I do find that their utter ruthlessness
in the manga is very effective.
> Plus the terrible psychological implications of Sloth; if you accept what
> happened with Wrath, Lust, and even Greed to an extent, these are
> PEOPLE -- and some of them are, in fact, who they were in life. So if Ed
> were to accept that, he and Al *SUCCEEDED* in bringing their mother back,
> Dante messed with her head, and then Ed *killed* her.
>
>
>
> I prefer the subtlety and mystery of
>> the villains in Brotherhood. They're less sympathetic, but more
>> frightening. I mean, Father considers humans to be so far beneath him
>> that they're below his judgment, like insects. Now that's scary.
>
> No, it's rather pedestrian to me. "I'm a massively powerful being who
> thinks of you as ants". Yeah, big whoop, dude. You still had to manipulate
> a broom-pusher into doing your work for you.
Kind of hard to do anything without manipulation when you're just a little
swirling black cloud. That he was able to maipulate the situation in that
form is scary.
> And you're STILL playing in the shadows. Men don't hide from insects, they
> step on them. You're a big fraud.
Men don't particularly care what insects think and don't need to prove it by
stepping on them.
>> And Envy's true form... that's like something out of a Lovecraftian
>> nightmare. O_O
>
> It's pretty ugly, but I find Pride's to be worse and even more
> Lovecraftian.
Oh come on, with the human souls coming out of him? That's creepy as hell!
> I find this Envy less interesting than the old one. In Brotherhood he's
> just a total monster without any motivation except "I'm the Sin of Envy"
> (and that's what kills him in the end). In the first anime, he actually
> had some human aspects which had emotional resonance with him.
He had daddy issues.
I think that made him sympathetic, but at the same time weakened him as a
threat. His presence and arrogance in the new series is much more
intimidating.
Arnold Kim
Giovanni Wassen
> Brotherhood, following the original manga
Is it worth reading the manga? I do not necessarily need to pick up another
manga series (I already buy Naruto, Claymore and Mushi-shi) but I kinda
like the Brotherhood series so I'm kinda interested.
--
Gio
http://www.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
http://watkijkikoptv.info/animeblog
Arnold Kim
"sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:_oadnX_FkJCYLGPX...@posted.internetamerica...
I have to agree that Kimblee is great in the manga and so far in
Brotherhood. He's unpredictable; there's part of him that's a refined
gentleman, and a part that's a mass murdering psycho. The things he says
have a logic to them; he understands a certain part of people extremely
well, and he has a definite worldview that's more than just the ravings of a
lunatic.
I love the fact that he would have killed the Rockbells in an instant had
Scar not gotten to them first, and he would have enjoyed it; but at the same
time I genuinely believe that he respected them for sticking to their
beliefs and staying true to their calling in spite of enormous pressure not
to do so.
Arnold Kim
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:hdk3mv$687$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Arnold Kim wrote:
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hdjlfe$445$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> I feel that the original series and Brotherhood are about equal.
>>>> Brotherhood, following the original manga, loses some of the cool things
>>>> of the original anime (for instance, the Homonculi are very different
>>>> and in many cases more complex characters; Dante is also a very
>>>> different, though not really any less frightening, final villain; and
>>>> some of the events and choices Ed has to make are pretty important if
>>>> you're looking at him as a person).
>>> I think that Dante was a decent villain, but her and the homunculi are
>>> kind of cliche in their motivations. Dante basically just wants to keep
>>> living; the homunculi want to become human.
>> Dante also saw herself as a god, controlling society. The homonculi had
>> MANY motivations -- and more diversity. We had a part-human homonculus who
>> just wanted his mommy, for instance.
>
> Monsters trying to validate their own existence or find a place in the world
> has been done before. The arrogance and horror of the homunculi in the
> manga also has been done before, but I do find that their utter ruthlessness
> in the manga is very effective.
Yeah, but human beings can be utterly ruthless too. As monsters it
makes them, to me, much more one dimensional. They're just Video Game
Second Level Bosses. Greed steps out of that role, and for a while I
thought Bradley/Wrath might be, but it seems not.
>
>> Plus the terrible psychological implications of Sloth; if you accept what
>> happened with Wrath, Lust, and even Greed to an extent, these are
>> PEOPLE -- and some of them are, in fact, who they were in life. So if Ed
>> were to accept that, he and Al *SUCCEEDED* in bringing their mother back,
>> Dante messed with her head, and then Ed *killed* her.
I'm leaving this in because to me this was one of the most poignant
parts of the original FMA -- and if you project forward, one of the
things most likely to have terrible impact on Ed later.
>>
>>
>>
>> I prefer the subtlety and mystery of
>>> the villains in Brotherhood. They're less sympathetic, but more
>>> frightening. I mean, Father considers humans to be so far beneath him
>>> that they're below his judgment, like insects. Now that's scary.
>> No, it's rather pedestrian to me. "I'm a massively powerful being who
>> thinks of you as ants". Yeah, big whoop, dude. You still had to manipulate
>> a broom-pusher into doing your work for you.
>
> Kind of hard to do anything without manipulation when you're just a little
> swirling black cloud. That he was able to maipulate the situation in that
> form is scary.
Scary? No, he wasn't just a swirling black cloud, he was a demon with
vast power, just imprisoned, near as I could tell. He needed someone to
do certain things to give him MORE power and a solid body, though.
>
>> And you're STILL playing in the shadows. Men don't hide from insects, they
>> step on them. You're a big fraud.
>
> Men don't particularly care what insects think and don't need to prove it by
> stepping on them.
Men don't need to set up centuries or millennia-long plots to
manipulate ants to do their bidding. That's what men do to other men.
Father is a bigass fraud. He's not "all that", he just THINKS he is. He
may start out on a higher level than your normal alchemist, but he's not
nearly as badass as he wants everyone to think he is. He couldn't even
shut down ALL alchemy, just the stuff he was familiar with. Xingese
alchemy and whatever wierd sh*t Scar's brother created, he couldn't turn
off.
>
>>> And Envy's true form... that's like something out of a Lovecraftian
>>> nightmare. O_O
>> It's pretty ugly, but I find Pride's to be worse and even more
>> Lovecraftian.
>
> Oh come on, with the human souls coming out of him? That's creepy as hell!
Eh. I'm unimpressed. It's just a bunch of plasticky-looking heads
whining. The swirling darkness filled with eyes and mouths, that's more
disturbing to me.
>
>> I find this Envy less interesting than the old one. In Brotherhood he's
>> just a total monster without any motivation except "I'm the Sin of Envy"
>> (and that's what kills him in the end). In the first anime, he actually
>> had some human aspects which had emotional resonance with him.
>
> He had daddy issues.
>
> I think that made him sympathetic, but at the same time weakened him as a
> threat. His presence and arrogance in the new series is much more
> intimidating.
It makes him more dangerous in one sense, but less interesting. Though
it does give the opportunity for him to get TOTALLY 0WNZ0RED by Roy, and
then TALKED INTO COMMITTING SUICIDE by Ed because he can't face the truth.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Brotherhood, following the original manga
>
> Is it worth reading the manga? I do not necessarily need to pick up another
> manga series (I already buy Naruto, Claymore and Mushi-shi) but I kinda
> like the Brotherhood series so I'm kinda interested.
>
The Manga is like Brotherhood with more detail.
sanjian
No sense messing with what works.
sanjian
I'm not entirely sure I can agree with him being a psycho. One could just
say that he's a man who loves his job. He seems to look at the "heros" much
the way many in the military look at the type of reservist who says "I just
did it for college. I didn't want to go to war." In fact, part of me looks
at Mustang et. al the same way. Mainly because I think their country's
nature was apparent to all who had open eyes. Though I do respect Mustang's
desire to fix things, even at his own expense.
Of course, the massacre at Ishibal brings to mind many atrocities committed
by many nations (such as the Rape of Nanking). However, as an American, the
one that comes to mind, first, is Mai Lai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_Lai_Massacre . Of course, one could see
Kimbly as 2LT William Calley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley .
What's notably lacking is the parallel for WO1 Hugh Thompon (a name that I
believe should be taught to all Americans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr. . I think Mustang is an
attempt to be Thompson after the fact. Riza, Armstrong, Hughes, and Mustang
fell grossly short of the mark by not standing up during the massacre.
That's why I like the idea of all of them being willing to fall on their
swords once the revolution is over. It makes that a proper ending (if
that's how it ends - I haven't read the manga), in my view.
sanjian
> "sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
> news:_oadnX_FkJCYLGPX...@posted.internetamerica...
>> Oddly enough, I ended up respecting Kimbly more than Mustang, after
>> the flashback (not that I like Mustang less, but after the hatchet
>> job they did on Kimbly in the first series, he had farther to go). Now I
>> understand why Blade likes the character.
>
> I have to agree that Kimblee is great in the manga and so far in
> Brotherhood. He's unpredictable; there's part of him that's a refined
> gentleman, and a part that's a mass murdering psycho. The things he
I've got to disagree. He's very predictable. He's got his own rules, sure,
but they're internally consistent, and he doesn't violate them. If you know
Kimblee, then there are few surprises from him (at least, so far).
> says have a logic to them; he understands a certain part of people
> extremely well, and he has a definite worldview that's more than just
> the ravings of a lunatic.
>
> I love the fact that he would have killed the Rockbells in an instant
> had Scar not gotten to them first, and he would have enjoyed it; but
> at the same time I genuinely believe that he respected them for
> sticking to their beliefs and staying true to their calling in spite
> of enormous pressure not to do so.
Exactly. Just because he's enjoying the carnage doesn't mean there's any
malice. Business is business. If he respects the Rockbells for doing their
job well, despite the pressure, then how can he do anything less than doing
his own job well. Hell, it would have been disrespectful to the Rockbells
not to kill them.
A.Gerard
everybody- the evilGracia, the evilHughes, etc. You don't like him
showing your favorite character in a bad way. In the case of the
MangaEnvy, you're relieved that the appearance is only skin deep. But
Anime1Envy is different; he is the DARK SIDE of Edward Elric, and he
doesn't need transformation to show his similarity is deep. Both share
cockiness, quick to temper & violence, devotion to mother, hatred of
father. It was all a matter of having the right family that saved
Edward from being consumed by the paternal hatred that ruled Envy.
Note that Ed's words to his daddy could be identical to Envy's. Note
that Al confesses his hatred to Envy; a confession Edward so feared on
himself. Note when Edward purposely commits (or tries to commit) a
dark deed- the Lab 5 transmutation, matricide, fighting you-know-who-
Envy is present, like his personal devil influencing his soul. This
continues on in the movie- the two times Edward pulls out a gun to
shoot somebody (!), guess who appears?
Personally, I thought Anime1Envy's fate was worse than his counterpart
(which is always good for a non-fan like myself).
A thing I noticed in the manga is that Edward and Roy receive a lot of
'Get Out of Jail Free' cards. Their anime counterparts are forced to
make some dark decisions (Edward killing; Roy having revenge) and
suffer for it in soul and body. But in the manga there is always a
villain's plot or rescue or intervention or suicide that frees these
guys from doing anything against their ideals. Compared to what
Anime1Ed and Roy encountered, MangaEd and Roy had a picnic.
Blade
"sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:ZfudnVvrdum8nmLX...@posted.internetamerica...
> Arnold Kim wrote:
>> says have a logic to them; he understands a certain part of people
>> extremely well, and he has a definite worldview that's more than just
>> the ravings of a lunatic.
>>
>> I love the fact that he would have killed the Rockbells in an instant
>> had Scar not gotten to them first, and he would have enjoyed it; but
>> at the same time I genuinely believe that he respected them for
>> sticking to their beliefs and staying true to their calling in spite
>> of enormous pressure not to do so.
>
> Exactly. Just because he's enjoying the carnage doesn't mean there's any
> malice. Business is business. If he respects the Rockbells for doing
> their job well, despite the pressure, then how can he do anything less
> than doing his own job well. Hell, it would have been disrespectful to
> the Rockbells not to kill them.
I can't add much since a) not watching Brotherhood yet, and b) said my piece
in the previous conversation, but I will add a suspiciously fangirly squeal
of delight at other people noticing how awesome Kimblee is. :)
I love villains who actually have coherent worldviews that are more than
just "kicking puppies is rad!". As you say, when you understand Kimblee he's
actually very predictable, and not always predictably monstrous. Add that to
the fact he's NOT presented as an unbeatable badass but still terrifyingly
dangerous (see: his fight on the train, reasons for how it turns out and
aftermath), and his marvellous style (white suits are just ineffably cool
for some reason), and he's easily one of my favourite anime/manga villains.
-
Blade
Arnold Kim
> Arnold Kim wrote:
>> "sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
>> news:_oadnX_FkJCYLGPX...@posted.internetamerica...
>
>>> Oddly enough, I ended up respecting Kimbly more than Mustang, after
>>> the flashback (not that I like Mustang less, but after the hatchet
>>> job they did on Kimbly in the first series, he had farther to go). Now I
>>> understand why Blade likes the character.
>>
>> I have to agree that Kimblee is great in the manga and so far in
>> Brotherhood. He's unpredictable; there's part of him that's a refined
>> gentleman, and a part that's a mass murdering psycho. The things he
>
> I've got to disagree. He's very predictable. He's got his own rules,
> sure, but they're internally consistent, and he doesn't violate them. If
> you know Kimblee, then there are few surprises from him (at least, so
> far).
By unpredictable I mean that there are two seemingly disparate parts of him
that not everyone really understands (otherwise the whole "fake bomb on the
wrist" in episode 31 wouldn't have worked quite as well) but I do agree that
his perspective on the world is consistent. If I turn off my own personal
moral inclinations for a moment, I could see where he's coming from.
>> says have a logic to them; he understands a certain part of people
>> extremely well, and he has a definite worldview that's more than just
>> the ravings of a lunatic.
>>
>> I love the fact that he would have killed the Rockbells in an instant
>> had Scar not gotten to them first, and he would have enjoyed it; but
>> at the same time I genuinely believe that he respected them for
>> sticking to their beliefs and staying true to their calling in spite
>> of enormous pressure not to do so.
>
> Exactly. Just because he's enjoying the carnage doesn't mean there's any
> malice. Business is business. If he respects the Rockbells for doing
> their job well, despite the pressure, then how can he do anything less
> than doing his own job well. Hell, it would have been disrespectful to
> the Rockbells not to kill them.
From a certain twisted perspective, yes. :)
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
> Of course, the massacre at Ishibal brings to mind many atrocities
> committed by many nations (such as the Rape of Nanking). However, as an
> American, the one that comes to mind, first, is Mai Lai.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_Lai_Massacre . Of course, one could see
> Kimbly as 2LT William Calley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley .
> What's notably lacking is the parallel for WO1 Hugh Thompon (a name that I
> believe should be taught to all Americans)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr. . I think Mustang is an
> attempt to be Thompson after the fact. Riza, Armstrong, Hughes, and
> Mustang fell grossly short of the mark by not standing up during the
> massacre. That's why I like the idea of all of them being willing to fall
> on their swords once the revolution is over. It makes that a proper
> ending (if that's how it ends - I haven't read the manga), in my view.
I think that the mentioning of My Lai is appropriate, because as much as
there are parallels to WWII (especially laid on thick in episode 23 with the
very Aryan looking Amestrian army) I always saw Ishbal as that world's
version of Vietnam. The hopeful idealism and patriotism that Mustang came
into the war with and the extraordinary guilt and disillusionment he came
out of it with speaks to a lot of soldiers' experiences during that time.
I do like the fact that there wasn't a true Hugh Thompson in the group
because that makes it so that they all had a hand in that tragedy. I think
that having one person trying to do the right thing is a bit dramatically
"easy" and not as interesting to me as watching them all fail, becoming
these people that they never really wanted to be, and then try to pick up
the pieces afterward. That's why one of my favorite moments in the manga is
when the war is officially over and those soldiers come by and salute him
for saving their lives and call him a hero. He salutes them back, but when
they're not around he's absolutely disgusted by that label, and he lashes
out, fed up with his own weakness, and what he feels he has to do from that
point on is very clear. He wasn't perfect; in fact he did commit some
horrible crimes. But because of his unflinching focus to do what's right
and make amends, even after the fact, you still respect him.
Plus I think that a Thompson type character would have been admirable but
not quite as easy to relate to, in a sense. One of the great things about
the flashback is that it captured the chaos of the whole situation; I could
see how Roy could go from being so optimistic to being so emotionally beaten
down. The Rockbells worked, but as an optimistic (and idealized)
counterpoint to everything else.
(I also find it interesting that they were the only people who remained firm
in their convictions and stood up for the powerless, and they ended up
ead. )
Arnold Kim
Lee Ratner
> "Lee Ratner" <lbrat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
same in manga and Brotherhood as he is in the first anime.
Lee Ratner
> "sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:2o-dnQD0GNr0nWLX...@posted.internetamerica...
>
> > Of course, the massacre at Ishibal brings to mind many atrocities
> > committed by many nations (such as the Rape of Nanking). However, as an
> > American, the one that comes to mind, first, is Mai Lai.
> > Kimbly as 2LT William Calleyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley.
> > What's notably lacking is the parallel for WO1 Hugh Thompon (a name that I
> > believe should be taught to all Americans)
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr. . I think Mustang is an
> > attempt to be Thompson after the fact. Riza, Armstrong, Hughes, and
> > Mustang fell grossly short of the mark by not standing up during the
> > massacre. That's why I like the idea of all of them being willing to fall
> > on their swords once the revolution is over. It makes that a proper
> > ending (if that's how it ends - I haven't read the manga), in my view.
>
> I think that the mentioning of My Lai is appropriate, because as much as
> there are parallels to WWII (especially laid on thick in episode 23 with the
> very Aryan looking Amestrian army) I always saw Ishbal as that world's
> version of Vietnam. The hopeful idealism and patriotism that Mustang came
> into the war with and the extraordinary guilt and disillusionment he came
> out of it with speaks to a lot of soldiers' experiences during that time.
>
rather than Budhhism.
The priests of Ishbal were clothing somewhat like that of a Buddhist
monk and Ishballan society is very religious but from what we know
about Ishbal is that the religion is monotheistic in nature.
Arnold Kim
"Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hdndh8$dt4$1...@news.albasani.net...
>
>
> "sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
> news:ZfudnVvrdum8nmLX...@posted.internetamerica...
>> Arnold Kim wrote:
>
>>> says have a logic to them; he understands a certain part of people
>>> extremely well, and he has a definite worldview that's more than just
>>> the ravings of a lunatic.
>>>
>>> I love the fact that he would have killed the Rockbells in an instant
>>> had Scar not gotten to them first, and he would have enjoyed it; but
>>> at the same time I genuinely believe that he respected them for
>>> sticking to their beliefs and staying true to their calling in spite
>>> of enormous pressure not to do so.
>>
>> Exactly. Just because he's enjoying the carnage doesn't mean there's any
>> malice. Business is business. If he respects the Rockbells for doing
>> their job well, despite the pressure, then how can he do anything less
>> than doing his own job well. Hell, it would have been disrespectful to
>> the Rockbells not to kill them.
>
> I can't add much since a) not watching Brotherhood yet, and b) said my
> piece in the previous conversation, but I will add a suspiciously fangirly
> squeal of delight at other people noticing how awesome Kimblee is. :)
If you're not watching because of concerns of legality, they stream the
episodes on Funimation.com.
It's an adaptation, so don't expect -everything- from the manga, but it's
still quite good.
Arnold Kim
Blade
"Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b020633$0$31268$607e...@cv.net...
>
> "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hdndh8$dt4$1...@news.albasani.net...
>> I can't add much since a) not watching Brotherhood yet, and b) said my
>> piece in the previous conversation, but I will add a suspiciously
>> fangirly squeal of delight at other people noticing how awesome Kimblee
>> is. :)
>
> If you're not watching because of concerns of legality, they stream the
> episodes on Funimation.com.
>
> It's an adaptation, so don't expect -everything- from the manga, but it's
> still quite good.
Three problems:
1) Not sure if you can watch them outside the US - Hulu and other services
are often useless because of this.
2) I'd prefer to watch it dubbed and I assume the stream is subbed.
3) At the moment, bandwidth is a little tight, it being dearer in Oz.
I do intend to pick it up sometime, though.
-
Blade