[RANT] Comic Con 2004
Peter Choi
this is not so off-topic, right? :D This is the first time I ever
visited ComicCon. Boy was I so confused. There was one main reason for
visiting San Diego ComicCon: Portfolio Review.
I came to realize that I chose a slightly wrong path. Not many
studios were open for portfolio review. There is always a long line
for one. It's so crowded and hectic so editors and artists have rather
stressful environment to review a portfolio.
I missed Dark Horse, Top Cow and Devil's Due Comics for today. I
managed to get mine reviewed by Tokyopop. They loved my portfolio
except for one thing: They want to see more anime and manga style
works, not some Hellboy rampaging around beating the crap out of poor
zombies. Yeah, I had a tailor-made pencil-page portfolio for Dark
Horse Comics, also with a dozen of creature and mechanical designs.
The folks at Tokyopop told me to send a short manga later on. They
told me that I have to be committed for at least a 3-volume project
when I get pitched. I immediately came up with a short story of a
traumatized reserve combat vetran. (What the heck are you thinking,
Pete? It's supposed to be a manga!!! ^_^;)
I barely left mt business cards at Antarctic Press and Dreamwave
Comics. Those folks that Dreamwave pointed out some notable problems
such as lack of background in many panels and rather stoic camera
angles. My friend Zak Hennessy also pointed out my problems which is
commonplace among manga and other Asian comicbooks. Hellboy didn't
look so angry enough...
I got my ass ripped at Dreamworks booth. They told me that a bunch of
Art Center students always come to them with portfolio full of
creatures and mecha. What they are looking for is more loose and
family-friendly works, and also more real-world stuff. I gotta work on
that ASAP... And some folks at Image also tore open a new one for all
the reasons mentioned above. Certainly there are differences in
tastes. No maater how much I try to stahy away from 'manga style', The
panel alignements, tempo, camera angles and stuff are basically rooted
from manga. And I happen to be a rather dull person who stick with
more theatrical, 'dull' camera angles.
I met Frank Cho, the creator of Liberty Meadows and father of
bodacious Brandy. :) I asked when he came to the state from Korea. He
came here when he was 6 years old. He told me that my English is very
good for a Korean man who spent 8 years in the state. :)(Yeah, a lot
of them are rather sloppy...) Too bad I couldn't take his picture to
brag about... And forgot to left him my business card.
But...there's one big thing I felt from that place: I didn't feel
like belonging there. Since I started studying art I gradually
separated from any form of fandom. I realized that I am just a casual
consumer who wants to work in commercial art, which includes comicbook
and fantasy art. All those things out there are practically research
materials, no more, no less. No, to be a better artist I have to learn
from the real world... During the last 8 years I only watched 4
complete anime series (not counting Powerpuff Girls, Spongebob
Squarepants and Fairly Odd Parents...^^;) and only a few manga series.
I enjoyed certain titles but I never bothered reading or watching
others because I thought that was a waste of time and money.
And there were a whole bunch of people (but certainly a minority) who
were in....oh well, a form of self-empowerment in a form of comicbook,
sci-fi, fantasy and anime costumes. There was a big photo session at
the outside area of convention center and there were whole bunch of
guys in various SW costumes. And I overheard one father telling his
kid son, "Don't brush with those kind of people too much."
Well...neither would I.
I spent my first university years with politically active student
members. They told me to create stuff with strong political and
philosophical messages. Over the last few years I came to believe a
didactic function (sorta old-fashoned) of art, largely influenced by
Soviet realism art and Pre-Raphaelites(sp?). And also there was Dune
series, which is more of a series of philosophy books than sci-fi
novels. But...
Many of the stuff I found in ComicCon were practically escapism fest,
which I was told to avoid at all cost. I felt so isolated. If I really
wanted to get a job then I could just set up my website and post my
works. But I chose an unintentional rude awakening. I came to realize
so many things incudling a fact that I am a fan of nothing...
Ethan Hammond
>
> I missed Dark Horse, Top Cow and Devil's Due Comics for today. I
> managed to get mine reviewed by Tokyopop. They loved my portfolio
> except for one thing: They want to see more anime and manga style
> works, not some Hellboy rampaging around beating the crap out of poor
> zombies. Yeah, I had a tailor-made pencil-page portfolio for Dark
> Horse Comics, also with a dozen of creature and mechanical designs.
> The folks at Tokyopop told me to send a short manga later on. They
> told me that I have to be committed for at least a 3-volume project
> when I get pitched. I immediately came up with a short story of a
> traumatized reserve combat vetran. (What the heck are you thinking,
> Pete? It's supposed to be a manga!!! ^_^;)
Wow, good going!!!! *THUMBS UP* Dark Horse to me seems like
they have always been a comic company that is willing to take risks and
try new things. Some of the stuff works and some of it dosen't, but at
least they try and get it out there. Of course they were also very smart
to snap up a lot of movie rights that no one else thought they could do
anything with. Tokyopop publishes original material? I didn't know
they did. All I know about Devil's Due is that they do GI Joe and they
were cool enough to keep the continuity the same as the Marvel GI
Joe comics. I wish Dreamwave had done the same thing with Transformers.
> I barely left mt business cards at Antarctic Press and Dreamwave
> Comics. Those folks that Dreamwave pointed out some notable problems
> such as lack of background in many panels and rather stoic camera
> angles. My friend Zak Hennessy also pointed out my problems which is
> commonplace among manga and other Asian comicbooks. Hellboy didn't
> look so angry enough...
The one thing about Dreamwave that sucks is that Pat Lee can't draw
worth a darn and they try to sell him as if he is the second coming of
coming book artists. I wouldn't buy there Transformers comics at all
if they were still like the first mini series that Pat Lee and some horrid
writer, and I used the term loosely did. At least now they have Simon
Furman and Brad Mick writing and Don Figueroa is the best TF artist
possibly ever. Also they gave Andrew Wildman a chance to draw
another TF comic so they had my favorite team of Furman and Wildman
do TF War Within 2.
> I got my ass ripped at Dreamworks booth. They told me that a bunch of
> Art Center students always come to them with portfolio full of
> creatures and mecha. What they are looking for is more loose and
> family-friendly works, and also more real-world stuff. I gotta work on
> that ASAP... And some folks at Image also tore open a new one for all
> the reasons mentioned above. Certainly there are differences in
> tastes. No maater how much I try to stahy away from 'manga style', The
> panel alignements, tempo, camera angles and stuff are basically rooted
> from manga. And I happen to be a rather dull person who stick with
> more theatrical, 'dull' camera angles.
Yeah don't worry about it some of the best artists in comics today like
Joseph Michael Linsner didn't even go to art school and constantly got
told they sucked. Of course he had to start off self publishing to do it.
But it paid off in the end. *SHAKES CRY FOR DAWN 1994 CALENDAR
WITH NEKKID DAWN* What joy!!!!
Personally I get tired of seeing people who draw like everyone else. I
think
people who do there own style and do it really well are better. And to me
there is no such thing as manga style because there is no one way to draw
manga. If you flip through an issue of any weekly Japanese comic you
see lots of different styles. And if Image is trying to be family friendly
they
must be doing worse than I thought. I am kind of surprised Image is even
still around. I don't think anyone cares about anything they do besides
Spawn.
> And there were a whole bunch of people (but certainly a minority) who
> were in....oh well, a form of self-empowerment in a form of comicbook,
> sci-fi, fantasy and anime costumes. There was a big photo session at
> the outside area of convention center and there were whole bunch of
> guys in various SW costumes. And I overheard one father telling his
> kid son, "Don't brush with those kind of people too much."
> Well...neither would I.
Yeah I don't get cosplay either. Although I have always thought it would
be fun to wear a Japanese wresler mask for Halloween and only speak
Japanese the entire day.
> I spent my first university years with politically active student
> members. They told me to create stuff with strong political and
> philosophical messages. Over the last few years I came to believe a
> didactic function (sorta old-fashoned) of art, largely influenced by
> Soviet realism art and Pre-Raphaelites(sp?). And also there was Dune
> series, which is more of a series of philosophy books than sci-fi
> novels. But...
George Lucas already did something inspired by Dune. ^_- Ohhh and
something inspired by LOTR while we are at it, heh.
> Many of the stuff I found in ComicCon were practically escapism fest,
> which I was told to avoid at all cost. I felt so isolated. If I really
> wanted to get a job then I could just set up my website and post my
> works. But I chose an unintentional rude awakening. I came to realize
> so many things incudling a fact that I am a fan of nothing...
Honestly the US comic industry doesn't have anything going for it right now
except for the whole 80's retro thing and ripping off manga. Webcomics
have basically replaced the indy comic scene and most webcomics are
more interesting than what the major companies are putting out. I got tired
of superhero comics in the 90's, the only US comics I follow and
Dreamwave's
Transformers comics and Titan's Marvel Transformers reprints. Everything
else is manga some US versions but mainly Japanese. The thing I think about
manga that is better, is manga is telling a story with a beginning and an
end.
US superhero comics will never end and there is only so much you can do
with the characters. So if you are not a fan of what is out there now maybe
that is good, maybe you can come up with something new and interesting
cause the medium and the business really desperately need it.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Travers Naran
> Honestly the US comic industry doesn't have anything going for it right now
> except for the whole 80's retro thing and ripping off manga. Webcomics
> have basically replaced the indy comic scene and most webcomics are
> more interesting than what the major companies are putting out. I got tired
> of superhero comics in the 90's, the only US comics I follow and
> Dreamwave's
> Transformers comics and Titan's Marvel Transformers reprints. Everything
> else is manga some US versions but mainly Japanese. The thing I think about
> manga that is better, is manga is telling a story with a beginning and an
> end.
> US superhero comics will never end and there is only so much you can do
> with the characters. So if you are not a fan of what is out there now maybe
> that is good, maybe you can come up with something new and interesting
> cause the medium and the business really desperately need it.
To be fair, there is manga like that in Japan too. The big thing is that
Manga can and does tell a broader range of stories, even within genres like
Giant Robots and Shounen Jump's "Be the Best!". The manga-ka know how to
write a good story. They create characters you care about, stories that
are interesting and engaging and memorable character interactions.
Look at American super-hero comics and its hard to find a character who
isn't a walking bundle of cliches and nausea-inducing melodrama. Hellboy
is one exception, but notice it's an exception, not the norm.
The worst aspect I've seen is the way they mimic TV & Movie dramas to make
their superheros more "realistic". But a superhero comic trying to be NYPD
Blue is just... painful.
Let American comic book artists draw something OTHER than superheros!
Hire people who know how to write a story!
Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff nowadays.
It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
Blade
news:EvRMc.64340$iw3.45634@clgrps13:
Umm, no it's not. Really, it's not. At least not comparative to manga.
Ultimate X-men, Alpha Flight, and She-Hulk all come to mind as current
"super-hero" comics that are well-written and have non-cliched character
types and interactions.
Indeed, I can hardly think of of any time in the last ten years there
hasn't been at least a couple of outstandingly good superhero comics that
I've at least wanted to collect. Starlin's stuff, Alan Moore's stuff, Joe
Kelly's Deadpool, etc...
Good superhero comics are as much the "norm" as good manga. Most manga is
cliched crap. So are most superhero comics. There are exceptions that
stand out....and that's what you remember.
The majority of posters on americomic forums are just as dismissive of
manga as you are of americomics, I might add...and for most of the same
reasons.
> The worst aspect I've seen is the way they mimic TV & Movie dramas to
> make their superheros more "realistic". But a superhero comic trying
> to be NYPD Blue is just... painful.
>
> Let American comic book artists draw something OTHER than superheros!
They do. You just aren't looking beyond the Big Two. How about Blue
Monday and the rest of the Oni oeuvre? How about Antarctic Press, Gold
Digger especially?
> Hire people who know how to write a story!
Pfft. Plenty of people can and do. Jim Starlin, Alan Moore, Joe Kelly,
Scott Lobdell, Adam Warren. Just to name a few.
And "Watchmen" is still a superior story to any manga I've ever seen - and
I've seen quite a few - AFAIC.
> Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff nowadays.
> It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
You obviously don't really know anything of what you speak. "Blue Monday"
is hardly "extreme weird stuff", and it's one of the bigger indie comic
successes. Gold Digger is weird, but no more so than the average manga.
Blade
--
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
The Bearer Of The Long .Sig, "That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu
Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In It Somewhere"
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com
- More comedy per random image gallery page than the market leaders!
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/kaliashrine.htm
- Kalia rules. Oh yes, it's true. It's damn true.
"Shawn Michaels - holding up gay strippers for their wardrobes since
1988." - from the OO boards, slightly paraphrased, but oh so true.
Peter Choi
> think
> people who do there own style and do it really well are better. And to me
> there is no such thing as manga style because there is no one way to draw
> manga. If you flip through an issue of any weekly Japanese comic you
> see lots of different styles. And if Image is trying to be family friendly
> they
> must be doing worse than I thought. I am kind of surprised Image is even
> still around. I don't think anyone cares about anything they do besides
> Spawn.
>
Whoa, I made a mistake! The folks at Image (those guys who did 10th
Muse and Isis) didn't ripped me open for THOSE reasons! They told me
that there are so many half-assed stuff around my portfolio! It was
Dreamworks Animation that emphasized the family friendly and real
world poerfolio.
> Yeah I don't get cosplay either. Although I have always thought it would
> be fun to wear a Japanese wresler mask for Halloween and only speak
> Japanese the entire day.
There were more 'normal-looking' crowds on Sunday. I think local San
Diego people came to see the stuff.
>
> > I spent my first university years with politically active student
> > members. They told me to create stuff with strong political and
> > philosophical messages. Over the last few years I came to believe a
> > didactic function (sorta old-fashoned) of art, largely influenced by
> > Soviet realism art and Pre-Raphaelites(sp?). And also there was Dune
> > series, which is more of a series of philosophy books than sci-fi
> > novels. But...
>
> George Lucas already did something inspired by Dune. ^_- Ohhh and
> something inspired by LOTR while we are at it, heh.
> Honestly the US comic industry doesn't have anything going for it right now
> except for the whole 80's retro thing and ripping off manga. Webcomics
> have basically replaced the indy comic scene and most webcomics are
> more interesting than what the major companies are putting out. I got tired
> of superhero comics in the 90's, the only US comics I follow and
> Dreamwave's
> Transformers comics and Titan's Marvel Transformers reprints. Everything
> else is manga some US versions but mainly Japanese. The thing I think about
> manga that is better, is manga is telling a story with a beginning and an
> end.
> US superhero comics will never end and there is only so much you can do
> with the characters. So if you are not a fan of what is out there now maybe
> that is good, maybe you can come up with something new and interesting
> cause the medium and the business really desperately need it.
Eh, the final score: Got some advice from Dark Horse folks. Do more
clean, smooth pencil lines and add more variety in character size per
each panel. I guess I should build my website and work on more
professional-looking stuff, one page per day. And some color works,
too.
Well, I bought 3 MG Gundam kits and a couple of preview issues of
some obscure but very well-drawn comics. (I had a cash advance to buy
those MG kits and it cost a lot!!!! Waaaahhhh!!!!!) Well, but I did
some notable harvests.
I took photos of ARIA GIOVANNI and TIFFANY TAYLOR!!!!! Haha!!!!
Peter Choi
> Manga can and does tell a broader range of stories, even within genres like
> Giant Robots and Shounen Jump's "Be the Best!".
Relatively more diversed, yes. Still shonen manga magazines and more
"anime-related" manga mazagines tend to rely on particular genres.
The manga-ka know how to
> write a good story. They create characters you care about, stories that
> are interesting and engaging and memorable character interactions.
>
Not really a nitpicking, but manga artists are usually helped by
their assigned editors from the publisher when writing a story.
> Look at American super-hero comics and its hard to find a character who
> isn't a walking bundle of cliches and nausea-inducing melodrama. Hellboy
> is one exception, but notice it's an exception, not the norm.
>
Hellboy is far from the US norm and that's what makes it great.
> The worst aspect I've seen is the way they mimic TV & Movie dramas to make
> their superheros more "realistic". But a superhero comic trying to be NYPD
> Blue is just... painful.
>
Maybe they'll have to completely separate from super hero genre,
right? Creating 'a superhero comic' and a 'comic with some
stronger-than-average people doing police works in uniform' a
COMPLETELY different story. :)
> Let American comic book artists draw something OTHER than superheros!
>
It will happen. But the worst side effect is that all those men in
leotards will be replaced by panty-flashing highschool catgirls. :D
> Hire people who know how to write a story!
>
The problem is that good writers demand exorbiant amount of money.
Not always, but it happens.
> Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff nowadays.
> It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
Yeah, that's the real problem. The ugly truth is that comic itself is
a 'GHETTO MEDIA' that caters only a certain few groups of people. At
least in Japan manga caters more broad groups of people even though
it's still a subculture.
One huge difference between Japan and the US is that in Japan most
people, especially those live near Tokyo, commute to work or school by
public transportation system, which allows them to read something
while going to work. And since Japan is a stressful and restraining
society in general, people always look for some escapism in
entertainment. And yes, they like to read.
Widya Santoso
> I took photos of ARIA GIOVANNI and TIFFANY TAYLOR!!!!! Haha!!!!
Did you take a picture of Violet Blue? Unlike the two above, Violet Blue
is known to be a SF fan and likes Japanese animation and goes to cons.
And I believe lives in the SoCal area.
--
Widya Santoso wsan...@nyx.net +61 2 6288-0405
The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep
-- Stopping by woods on a Snowy Evening - Robert Frost
Peter Choi
>
>> I took photos of ARIA GIOVANNI and TIFFANY TAYLOR!!!!! Haha!!!!
>
> Did you take a picture of Violet Blue? Unlike the two above, Violet Blue
> is known to be a SF fan and likes Japanese animation and goes to cons.
> And I believe lives in the SoCal area.
I don't think she was there...
Ethan Hammond
>
> To be fair, there is manga like that in Japan too.
Well yeah, I wasn't saying that Japan isn't like that I was just saying what
I think about the US comic book industry.
>The big thing is that Manga can and does tell a broader range of stories,
even
>within genres like Giant Robots and Shounen Jump's "Be the Best!". The
>manga-ka know how to write a good story. They create characters you
>care about, stories that are interesting and engaging and memorable
character interactions.
Exactly!!!!
> Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff nowadays.
> It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
Personally I think webcomics have taken over what Indy comics used to do.
Ethan Hammond
> Muse and Isis) didn't ripped me open for THOSE reasons! They told me
> that there are so many half-assed stuff around my portfolio! It was
> Dreamworks Animation that emphasized the family friendly and real
> world poerfolio.
What does half assed stuff mean? My problem is a lot of these guys looking
at the portfolio's can't even give constructive or useful criticism. I also
think
some comic artist get the Todd McFarlane syndrome when they make it big
and get big egos and start acting like asses.
> Eh, the final score: Got some advice from Dark Horse folks. Do more
> clean, smooth pencil lines and add more variety in character size per
> each panel. I guess I should build my website and work on more
> professional-looking stuff, one page per day. And some color works,
> too.
There you go.
> I took photos of ARIA GIOVANNI and TIFFANY TAYLOR!!!!! Haha!!!!
Of Mystique Magazine and Playboy fame? Aria is kind of a werid deal she
went from doing hardcore stuff like Penthouse to doing softcore. Most
hardcore
I can do without though.
Ethan Hammond
> people, especially those live near Tokyo, commute to work or school by
> public transportation system, which allows them to read something
> while going to work. And since Japan is a stressful and restraining
> society in general, people always look for some escapism in
> entertainment. And yes, they like to read.
Well I think they are more literate too. The government websites
for US literacy rates are using numbers from 1979.
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 97%
male: 97%
female: 97% (1979 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote in
> news:EvRMc.64340$iw3.45634@clgrps13:
>
> > who isn't a walking bundle of cliches and nausea-inducing melodrama.
> > Hellboy is one exception, but notice it's an exception, not the norm.
>
> Umm, no it's not. Really, it's not. At least not comparative to manga.
>
> Ultimate X-men, Alpha Flight, and She-Hulk all come to mind as current
> "super-hero" comics that are well-written and have non-cliched character
> types and interactions.
I remember you now. Your examples are an example of what I can't
stand. Nausea-inducing melodrama. It's people who still like
super-heroes that find them well written. I don't find any of their
supposed character development interesting or well-written.
> Indeed, I can hardly think of of any time in the last ten years there
> hasn't been at least a couple of outstandingly good superhero comics that
> I've at least wanted to collect. Starlin's stuff, Alan Moore's stuff, Joe
> Kelly's Deadpool, etc...
Out of the 30-50 titles published per month. I know you're going to
say the same is true of manga, but I'm not talking about just 1-2
titles, but over all. Even bad manga is more enjoyable than bad
super-hero comics. It's not the genre itself, as I said, but the
industry that creates it.
> Good superhero comics are as much the "norm" as good manga. Most manga is
> cliched crap. So are most superhero comics. There are exceptions that
> stand out....and that's what you remember.
No, what I remember is over-all enjoyment. American comics from the
50s through to the 70s were at least enjoyable to read, even the bad
ones. In the 80s, it reached some interesting heights, but the decay
had begun. I can pick up any Japanese manga (not just the stuff that
makes it across the Pacific) and be reasonably entertained. Every
week when I go into my regular comic store, I keep reading through the
new American stuff trying to find anything new to read from the big
publishers, with rare exceptions. For the stuff I do check out, I can
barely make it past the first 5 pages; it's so bad out there these
days.
I then go to the rather largish rack of independents and find a lot of
titles trying to be "avant garde". A few do break out of the pack,
like "Queen & Country", but for the most part, if you do "mainstream"
stuff in Indies, it's the kiss of death. It seems like you have to
really try to stand out to survive in Indie comics.
> The majority of posters on americomic forums are just as dismissive of
> manga as you are of americomics, I might add...and for most of the same
> reasons.
American comics have a drastically dwindling readership. Manga is
beginning to show up on best seller lists. Now, you might argue that
American comic readers are more discerning and enlightened than the
Unwashed Masses. If you do, I'll leave that last comment as is. :-)
> > Let American comic book artists draw something OTHER than superheros!
>
> They do. You just aren't looking beyond the Big Two. How about Blue
> Monday and the rest of the Oni oeuvre? How about Antarctic Press, Gold
> Digger especially?
OK, let me be clearer then because I did point out Indie comics later
in my post. I wish the Big Companies would get over the Superhero
only stuff. Vertigo was a good move but then seemed to peter out. DC
is licensing Shoujo, which I think is the wrong approach. How about
asking their stable of writers if they have a non-superhero comic they
want to write? Or better yet, asking their female writers if they
have anything they want to create and let them do whatever they want.
> > Hire people who know how to write a story!
>
> Pfft. Plenty of people can and do. Jim Starlin, Alan Moore, Joe Kelly,
> Scott Lobdell, Adam Warren. Just to name a few.
>
> And "Watchmen" is still a superior story to any manga I've ever seen - and
> I've seen quite a few - AFAIC.
But considering they account for a startlingly small precentage of the
comic book writers working in the majors, your examples don't do
anything to counter my main argument: the Big Publishers don't really
want to do anything than superheroes because they are chasing an ever
dwindling market of graying comic book fans who won't branch out
beyond superhero stuff and derides everything else.
> > Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff nowadays.
> > It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
>
> You obviously don't really know anything of what you speak.
Considering you don't either, you probably would recognize it better
than most.
> "Blue Monday"
> is hardly "extreme weird stuff", and it's one of the bigger indie comic
> successes. Gold Digger is weird, but no more so than the average manga.
I've followed indie comics for over a decade. There's a few notable
exceptions, but the vast majority of it tries for weird. You keep
bringing up exceptions, but that doesn't reflect the majority.
Travers Naran
> > To be fair, there is manga like that in Japan too. The big thing is that
> > Manga can and does tell a broader range of stories, even within genres like
> > Giant Robots and Shounen Jump's "Be the Best!".
>
> Relatively more diversed, yes. Still shonen manga magazines and more
> "anime-related" manga mazagines tend to rely on particular genres.
No, what I mean is that within their defined genre, like Giant Robot,
they will TRY to do something new within the genre. Most just go with
the flow, but if someone wants to try something different with the
"Shounen Jump" genre, the editors will give it a go.
> The manga-ka know how to
> > write a good story. They create characters you care about, stories that
> > are interesting and engaging and memorable character interactions.
>
> Not really a nitpicking, but manga artists are usually helped by
> their assigned editors from the publisher when writing a story.
And to further nitpick, same thing happens in WRITTEN fiction. John
W. Campbel was famous for that, and his suggestions and guidance gave
us many of the great SF stories we have today like Asimov's Foundation
saga.
> > Look at American super-hero comics and its hard to find a character who
> > isn't a walking bundle of cliches and nausea-inducing melodrama. Hellboy
> > is one exception, but notice it's an exception, not the norm.
>
> Hellboy is far from the US norm and that's what makes it great.
I think that was my point. ;-)
> > The worst aspect I've seen is the way they mimic TV & Movie dramas to make
> > their superheros more "realistic". But a superhero comic trying to be NYPD
> > Blue is just... painful.
>
> Maybe they'll have to completely separate from super hero genre,
> right? Creating 'a superhero comic' and a 'comic with some
> stronger-than-average people doing police works in uniform' a
> COMPLETELY different story. :)
Kind of manga like? :-) That's what I mean. If the writer wants to
do something interesting like that, they should be allowed to create
it and the publisher should try to raise awareness of it beyond the
Usual Fanbase. Don't just tell him, "See if you can do it in
Daredevil or something."
> > Let American comic book artists draw something OTHER than superheros!
>
> It will happen. But the worst side effect is that all those men in
> leotards will be replaced by panty-flashing highschool catgirls. :D
I can live with that. :-)
> > Hire people who know how to write a story!
>
> The problem is that good writers demand exorbiant amount of money.
> Not always, but it happens.
Except for Alan Moore, is that really true? I mean, JMS, Peter David
and Kevin Smith work for relatively cheap (as I understand it) because
they love comics. Considering almost no one can make a living just
writing comics, is it really unfair to demand that they make a living
wage?
> > Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff nowadays.
> > It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
>
> Yeah, that's the real problem. The ugly truth is that comic itself is
> a 'GHETTO MEDIA' that caters only a certain few groups of people. At
> least in Japan manga caters more broad groups of people even though
> it's still a subculture.
Excellent point!! Marvel & DC probably feel forever constrained by
their ever dwindling fanbase.
> One huge difference between Japan and the US is that in Japan most
> people, especially those live near Tokyo, commute to work or school by
> public transportation system, which allows them to read something
> while going to work. And since Japan is a stressful and restraining
> society in general, people always look for some escapism in
> entertainment. And yes, they like to read.
Also, making movies and TV in Japan is pretty hard. You only have a
fraction of the channels available in North America, and it's more
expensive than a manga artist & his assistants drawing a story once a
month or so. In North America, a writer can pitch his idea as a movie
or TV series and have a much better chance of it being produced than a
writer in Japan does.
Basically, when you have all these high production value TV series and
movies to satisfy the need for escapism, North America doesn't need
the printed medium as much.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
>
> One huge difference between Japan and the US is that in Japan most
> people, especially those live near Tokyo, commute to work or school by
> public transportation system, which allows them to read something
> while going to work. And since Japan is a stressful and restraining
> society in general, people always look for some escapism in
> entertainment. And yes, they like to read.
>
They like to read manga and other "text with pictures."
Text-only reading, like novels, are down however.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Blade
news:5b5263db.04072...@posting.google.com:
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xns95318DDC01...@66.185.95.104>...
>> Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote in
>> news:EvRMc.64340$iw3.45634@clgrps13:
>>
>> > Look at American super-hero comics and its hard to find a character
>> > who isn't a walking bundle of cliches and nausea-inducing
>> > melodrama. Hellboy is one exception, but notice it's an exception,
>> > not the norm.
>>
>> Umm, no it's not. Really, it's not. At least not comparative to
>> manga.
>>
>> Ultimate X-men, Alpha Flight, and She-Hulk all come to mind as
>> current "super-hero" comics that are well-written and have
>> non-cliched character types and interactions.
>
> I remember you now. Your examples are an example of what I can't
> stand. Nausea-inducing melodrama. It's people who still like
Whereas Love Hina is sublime storytelling. I doubt you've even read any
of those examples.
>> > Indie comics know this, but they only do extreme weird stuff
>> > nowadays. It's uncool to be mainstream in Indie comics.
>>
>> You obviously don't really know anything of what you speak.
>
> Considering you don't either, you probably would recognize it better
> than most.
<yawn>
Nice lack of counter. Actually, nice lack of counter of everything.
I remember you now, too. (plonk)
Chris Sobieniak
(Ethan Hammond) wrote:
>"Peter Choi" <ambe...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>message
>>One huge difference between Japan and the US
>>is that in Japan most people, especially those live
>>near Tokyo, commute to work or school by public
>>transportation system, which allows them to read
>>something while going to work. And since Japan
>>is a stressful and restraining society in general,
>>people always look for some escapism in
>>entertainment. And yes, they like to read.
>Well I think they are more literate too. The
>government websites for US literacy rates are
>using numbers from 1979.
>definition: age 15 and over can read and write
>total population: 97%
>male: 97%
>female: 97% (1979 est.)
>http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/>us.html
That's all fine and good, but I like to wonder how much has that number
changed between 1989 and 1999? Shame how long it takes for our
government to find these figures out. :-(
From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak
--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Gerardo Campos
05:39:23p:
The US goverment gets fresh numbers on each census. I think every 10
years, there is a census held.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Galen Musbach
They tried mailing out surveys, but no-one could read them;
they were as bad as the voting cards.
In statistics like this I wonder: what of people who read
in their native language, but not in English? What of people
who are blind? Comotose? Not allowed pencils?
Also in the factbook:
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
This baffles me; I can understand that most people
have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
does the higher ratio of males in underage sex reflect
the prevalence of gang related activity? Or does this
represent Shounen-Ai? And why are newborns having
sex anyway? We see that old women are having more
sex than are old men; that seems likely, but has the
introduction of Viagra changed that at all?
-Galen
elsie
"Galen Musbach" <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message
news:1o3bg05026l6ibm10...@4ax.com...
> Also in the factbook:
>
> Sex ratio:
> at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
> under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
> 15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
> 65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
> total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
>
> This baffles me; I can understand that most people
> have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
> does the higher ratio of males in underage sex reflect
> the prevalence of gang related activity? Or does this
> represent Shounen-Ai? And why are newborns having
> sex anyway? We see that old women are having more
> sex than are old men; that seems likely, but has the
> introduction of Viagra changed that at all?
>
> -Galen
Either you're putting us on, or you're reading this incorrectly. I'll
proceed under the assumption that you don't understand what this is actually
saying. It's not talking about sex; it's talking about the ratio of males to
females at various ages. More newborn males are born than females, but more
women survive to be 65 and older.
laurie
Travers Naran
> tna...@direct.ca (Travers Naran) wrote in
> news:5b5263db.04072...@posting.google.com:
>
>>I remember you now. Your examples are an example of what I can't
>>stand. Nausea-inducing melodrama. It's people who still like
>
> Whereas Love Hina is sublime storytelling. I doubt you've even read any
> of those examples.
Heheh. How little he knows... I tried reading them. They're the example
of the worst kinds of storytelling I'm talking about. The fact you like
them doesn't surprise me now.
>>Considering you don't either, you probably would recognize it better
>>than most.
>
> <yawn>
>
> Nice lack of counter. Actually, nice lack of counter of everything.
This is why I didn't like giving you the time of day before.
"I'm right, and I refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary."
I've seen you use this tactic with everyone else at one time or another.
> I remember you now, too. (plonk)
Yaaay! Now just plonk everyone else in the group so we don't have to
listen to your ignorant postings anymore.
"People are entitled to their INFORMED opinion." -- Harlan Ellison
Travers Naran
> They tried mailing out surveys, but no-one could read them;
> they were as bad as the voting cards.
Heheh.
> In statistics like this I wonder: what of people who read
> in their native language, but not in English? What of people
> who are blind? Comotose? Not allowed pencils?
Actually, I've been tangentally involved in a thread about literacy in
Japan. Someone was arguing that the illiteracy is quite higher in Japan
than official figures let on. He said most people couldn't read kanji (the
Chinese characters) well and that's the main reason reading has fallen off.
Of course, Jed does go on about how the Japanese should switch to an
alphabet and dump kanji...
> Sex ratio:
> at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
> under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
> 15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
> 65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
> total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
>
> This baffles me; I can understand that most people
> have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
> does the higher ratio of males in underage sex reflect
> the prevalence of gang related activity? Or does this
> represent Shounen-Ai? And why are newborns having
> sex anyway? We see that old women are having more
> sex than are old men; that seems likely, but has the
> introduction of Viagra changed that at all?
OK, now I KNOW you're having us on. Or having one off in your case. ;-)
I do find it interesting that in every industrialized country, the sex
ratio at birth is pretty much 1.05 male to female. It seems humanity
naturally over-produces males. I liked the theory one of my textbooks
suggested. Males tend to die off quicker than females due to
"misadventure". I.e., violence, hunting accidents, wars, etc.
Galen Musbach
wrote:
>
>"Galen Musbach" <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message
>news:1o3bg05026l6ibm10...@4ax.com...
>
>> Also in the factbook:
>>
>> Sex ratio:
>> at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
>> under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
>> 15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
>> 65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
>> total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
>>
>> This baffles me; I can understand that most people
>> have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
>> does the higher ratio of males in underage sex reflect
>> the prevalence of gang related activity? Or does this
>> represent Shounen-Ai? And why are newborns having
>> sex anyway? We see that old women are having more
>> sex than are old men; that seems likely, but has the
>> introduction of Viagra changed that at all?
>>
>> -Galen
>
>Either you're putting us on, or you're reading this incorrectly.
I was trying to be funny; sorry.
> I'll proceed under the assumption that you don't understand what this is actually
>saying. It's not talking about sex; it's talking about the ratio of males to
>females at various ages. More newborn males are born than females, but more
>women survive to be 65 and older.
>
>laurie
>
So, 5% more males than females die in childhood?
Is that because boys are supposed to play with guns
while girls play with dolls?
It would be interesting to see an accurate survey of what
ratios people have sex in, but everyone would lie.
-Galen
Travers Naran
>
> So, 5% more males than females die in childhood?
> Is that because boys are supposed to play with guns
> while girls play with dolls?
>
> It would be interesting to see an accurate survey of what
> ratios people have sex in, but everyone would lie.
What about those who do it alone? I'm sure that would screw up the
statistics even more...
elsie
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:06:29 GMT, "elsie" <lcub...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Galen Musbach" <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message
> >news:1o3bg05026l6ibm10...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Also in the factbook:
> >>
> >> Sex ratio:
> >> at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
> >> under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
> >> 15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
> >> 65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
> >> total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
> >>
> >> This baffles me; I can understand that most people
> >> have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
> >> does the higher ratio of males in underage sex reflect
> >> the prevalence of gang related activity? Or does this
> >> represent Shounen-Ai? And why are newborns having
> >> sex anyway? We see that old women are having more
> >> sex than are old men; that seems likely, but has the
> >> introduction of Viagra changed that at all?
> >>
> >> -Galen
> >
> >Either you're putting us on, or you're reading this incorrectly.
> I was trying to be funny; sorry.
Thought as much, but figured I might as well explain it for the people who
actually are idiots.
>
> > I'll proceed under the assumption that you don't understand what this is
actually
> >saying. It's not talking about sex; it's talking about the ratio of males
to
> >females at various ages. More newborn males are born than females, but
more
> >women survive to be 65 and older.
> >
> >laurie
> >
> So, 5% more males than females die in childhood?
> Is that because boys are supposed to play with guns
> while girls play with dolls?
>
I don't have any statistics, but I think there are two factors. Boys are
more apt to have genetic diseases than girls. Also I think boys are more
likely to die in accidents than girls are.
> It would be interesting to see an accurate survey of what
> ratios people have sex in, but everyone would lie.
>
> -Galen
laurie
Blade
>> tna...@direct.ca (Travers Naran) wrote in
>> news:5b5263db.04072...@posting.google.com:
>
> Yaaay! Now just plonk everyone else in the group so we don't have to
> listen to your ignorant postings anymore.
Just the assholes. Speaking of which, asshole, stop evading my killfile.
Replicant
news:Xns95318DDC01...@66.185.95.104:
> Umm, no it's not. Really, it's not. At least not comparative to
> manga.
>
> Ultimate X-men, Alpha Flight, and She-Hulk all come to mind as current
> "super-hero" comics that are well-written and have non-cliched
> character types and interactions.
>
All three of the titles you mentioned are revamps of concepts and
characters that are over two decades old. I do not feel encouraged to read
superhero comics when a fan of the genre claims that the best stories
currently published are the rehashes of older stories.
Blade
news:fwkNc.1235326$Ar.12...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
Then you're not very intelligent. Every story published today, manga,
novel, or comic, is a revamp of characters and concepts that are decades
old.
(And you seemingly haven't read any of the titles in question, either.)
(But, then, what a big shock. Anime fans. Can't live with 'em, can't kill
'em without a permit.)
Blade
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote in
> news:k0iNc.65644$iw3.19700@clgrps13:
>
>>Blade wrote:
>>
>>>tna...@direct.ca (Travers Naran) wrote in
>>>news:5b5263db.04072...@posting.google.com:
>>>I remember you now, too. (plonk)
>>
>>Yaaay! Now just plonk everyone else in the group so we don't have to
>>listen to your ignorant postings anymore.
>
> Just the assholes. Speaking of which, asshole, stop evading my killfile.
Killfiling yourself would improve your reading experience. If Firefox had
an easier to use filter system, I'd drop you in my killfile myself. :-P
Travers Naran
> Then you're not very intelligent. Every story published today, manga,
> novel, or comic, is a revamp of characters and concepts that are decades
> old.
You know, it's getting that I could write a list of your "debating"
tactics: claim the poster made no points, claimed the poster never
read/watched/listened to whatever, and last, call the poster stupid.
You've done this in almost every argument you've had on this group.
Debating with you is like playing golf on a course with no holes.
This excuse, though, is the one I've heard hard core comic fans whine for
over 20 f---ing years. When other media and people revisit a concept, they
usually do something recognizably different with it. When comic books do
it, all they usually do is add some implied 4-letter words and mention the
characters have sex and voila, "mature" writing. It's still the same
emotionally superficial motivations over the same childish concepts.
Worse, the stories are still dull.
I can forgive superficial motivations and childish concepts (how else could
I watch Hollywood movies and TV?), but I can't forgive them being turgid
and unentertaining. At least when manga or anime rehashes a concept or
goes for exploitation, it's still entertaining on some level.
E.g., I still love reading Spiderman, but let's face it: someone becomes a
super criminal, and the first thing they do is get an outlandish costume?
> (And you seemingly haven't read any of the titles in question, either.)
I've probably read more comic titles than you've had hot lunches. When the
poster says re-hash, the poster means nothing has really changed about the
characters. Some superficial details may have changed, but that's it. At
least Alan Moore does it really well by getting us to look at the same
character in a completely new light.
> (But, then, what a big shock. Anime fans. Can't live with 'em, can't kill
> 'em without a permit.)
I feel the same way about the hard-core comic book fans like yourself.
It's people like you that turned me off of comics in the 1990s.
Replicant
news:Xns95333CE37...@66.185.95.104:
>
> Then you're not very intelligent. Every story published today, manga,
> novel, or comic, is a revamp of characters and concepts that are
> decades old.
>
> (And you seemingly haven't read any of the titles in question,
> either.)
>
> (But, then, what a big shock. Anime fans. Can't live with 'em, can't
> kill 'em without a permit.)
>
> Blade
>
>
>
I used to read superhero comics, but I gave up on them because they were
ultimately very unsatisfying. Marvel/DC don't publish comics to tell good
stories, they publish comics to maintain trademarks.
Your argument that everything is a revamp of something else is overstated.
Before Midori no Hibi were there any stories about a guy with a girl for a
right hand? That series follows the standard shounen romantic comedy
formula, but at least it does _something_ to set it apart from everything
that's come before it.
I would argue that the American comics industry rewards creative
regurgitation to such an unhealthy degree that it ends up alienating new
readers. For example, I used to read Young Justice. It was a fun,
lighthearted series and I enjoyed it a lot. But then it was replaced with
Teen Titans and everything I used to enjoy about the series was tossed out
in order to rehash Wolfman/Perez. And sales skyrocketed and the fanbase
fell over themselves singing the praises of the new series. Personally, it
saddened me to see characters I used to like being polluted by the
influence of 20-year old plotlines that only gray haired fanboys will care
about. So I decided to never again read anything from the Marvel/DC
superhero universes.
After all, why should I care about any of the characters in a superhero
comic when it is guaranteed that a few years in the future a different
writer will take over whose interpretation of their personalities and
behavior will almost certainly be different from what I was previously
reading?
I have had enough of corporate owned comics. The only American comics I
will consider reading now are the creator owned ones.
Travers Naran
> In article <5UlNc.67374$iw3.2681@clgrps13>,
> Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote:
>
>>I can forgive superficial motivations and childish concepts (how else could
>>I watch Hollywood movies and TV?), but I can't forgive them being turgid
>>and unentertaining. At least when manga or anime rehashes a concept or
>>goes for exploitation, it's still entertaining on some level.
>>
>>E.g., I still love reading Spiderman, but let's face it: someone becomes a
>>super criminal, and the first thing they do is get an outlandish costume?
>
> ridiculously competent 15 year olds who survive without parents.
Or can be expert combat pilots. :-)
But that was my point. I said I can forgive superficial motivations and
childish concepts. As a genre convention, it is childish, but at least be
entertaining. The sales numbers speak for themselves: people find manga
more entertaining than American comic books. Even (Lord help us) "Love
Hina" the manga.
Blade
news:8bmNc.300903$rCA1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns95333CE37...@66.185.95.104:
>
>>
>> Then you're not very intelligent. Every story published today,
>> manga, novel, or comic, is a revamp of characters and concepts that
>> are decades old.
>>
>> (And you seemingly haven't read any of the titles in question,
>> either.)
>>
>> (But, then, what a big shock. Anime fans. Can't live with 'em,
>> can't kill 'em without a permit.)
>>
>> Blade
>>
>>
>>
>
> I used to read superhero comics, but I gave up on them because they
> were ultimately very unsatisfying. Marvel/DC don't publish comics to
> tell good stories, they publish comics to maintain trademarks.
Thus, I am correct, and you have NOT read the examples I gave, and are thus
unqualified to speak of them.
> Your argument that everything is a revamp of something else is
> overstated. Before Midori no Hibi were there any stories about a guy
> with a girl for a right hand? That series follows the standard shounen
Yes. It's even been published in the US. Bonus points for those who get
it.
> romantic comedy formula, but at least it does _something_ to set it
> apart from everything that's come before it.
Whoop-dee-fricking-doo. If that's your standard for "set apart", then
every americomic published today is also set apart from everything that's
come before it.
The very fact you say the series "follows the standard shounen romantic
comedy formula" and then hold it up as an example of innovation and
freshness in manga both puts the lie to your argument and is incredibly sad
at the same time.
> I would argue that the American comics industry rewards creative
> regurgitation to such an unhealthy degree that it ends up alienating
And I would argue that the same is true of manga and anime. And unlike
you, I read both of them, and I've seen a wide if by no means comprehensive
sampling of what both have to offer currently and in the last decade or so.
> new readers. For example, I used to read Young Justice. It was a fun,
> lighthearted series and I enjoyed it a lot. But then it was replaced
> with Teen Titans and everything I used to enjoy about the series was
> tossed out in order to rehash Wolfman/Perez. And sales skyrocketed and
> the fanbase fell over themselves singing the praises of the new
> series. Personally, it saddened me to see characters I used to like
> being polluted by the influence of 20-year old plotlines that only
> gray haired fanboys will care about. So I decided to never again read
> anything from the Marvel/DC superhero universes.
Whatever floats your boat. I really don't care what you read. I'll just
note, once again, that it makes you utterly unqualified to talk about the
state of current Americomics in general and doubly so for the examples I
mentioned.
> After all, why should I care about any of the characters in a
> superhero comic when it is guaranteed that a few years in the future a
> different writer will take over whose interpretation of their
> personalities and behavior will almost certainly be different from
> what I was previously reading?
Why should you care about any of the characters in a manga when you know it
will either be cancelled quickly or modified away from the artist's
conception in order to draw in more readers based on some magazine editor's
idea of what will appeal to the target demographic?
> I have had enough of corporate owned comics. The only American comics
> I will consider reading now are the creator owned ones.
That's...nice for you, I suppose.
Travers Naran
> I have had enough of corporate owned comics. The only American comics I
> will consider reading now are the creator owned ones.
Technically speaking, the manga is owned by the publishing company, but
unlike the States, the artist & creator has relatively more creative
freedom and ownership. E.g., I can't think of any manga in the modern era
where the creator was removed from his creation and some other writer put
on without his/her consent. Heh, I remember watching an interview with
Neil Gaimen about the "exceptional" authority DC gave him. Anytime someone
in the DC universe wanted to use his characters, he at least got told about
it and was allowed to make a suggestion about how they were used.
Non-binding, of course. ;-)
But a word of advice about "arguing" with Blade:
"Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you
with experience." -- Dilbert
Ethan Hammond
>
>definition: age 15 and over can read and write
>total population: 97%
>male: 97%
>female: 97% (1979 est.)
>http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/>us.html
>
>That's all fine and good, but I like to wonder how much has that number
>changed between 1989 and 1999? Shame how long it takes for our
>government to find these figures out. :-(
Oh they have more current numbers, but it wouldn't be In
The National Interest to use them!!!!
The Wanderer
> But a word of advice about "arguing" with Blade:
>
> "Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat
> you with experience." -- Dilbert
<sigh> Oh, come now. Blade isn't an idiot. He may occasionally be other
things - most people are - but he isn't an idiot.
I can't say I care much for some of the attitudes I've seen from him
recently, but then I didn't care much for some of what I saw from him
right from the beginning; it still doesn't make him an idiot.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
Captain Nerd
The Wanderer <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
> > But a word of advice about "arguing" with Blade:
> >
> > "Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat
> > you with experience." -- Dilbert
>
> <sigh> Oh, come now. Blade isn't an idiot. He may occasionally be other
> things - most people are - but he isn't an idiot.
>
> I can't say I care much for some of the attitudes I've seen from him
> recently, but then I didn't care much for some of what I saw from him
> right from the beginning; it still doesn't make him an idiot.
The more appropriate aphorism would be the one about "wrestling
with pigs."
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
bl...@california.com
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:21:39 GMT,
Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote ...
> Galen Musbach wrote:
>
> > They tried mailing out surveys, but no-one could read them;
> > they were as bad as the voting cards.
>
> Heheh.
>
> > In statistics like this I wonder: what of people who read
> > in their native language, but not in English? What of people
> > who are blind? Comotose? Not allowed pencils?
>
> Actually, I've been tangentally involved in a thread about literacy in
> Japan. Someone was arguing that the illiteracy is quite higher in Japan
> than official figures let on. He said most people couldn't read kanji (the
> Chinese characters) well and that's the main reason reading has fallen off.
> Of course, Jed does go on about how the Japanese should switch to an
> alphabet and dump kanji...
As it is now only the most dedicated scholars can read the
more ancient writings the Japanese made using borrowed kanji
and figure out which of several modes were being used at the
time. So an alphabet would be a little step away from the
origins but with the usual luck the Japanese will pick Cyrillic
letters as it would be just too easy to stick with romanji.
> > Sex ratio:
> > at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
> > under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
> > 15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
> > 65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
> > total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
[snip of confusing but humorous mis-interpretation]
> OK, now I KNOW you're having us on. Or having one off in your case. ;-)
>
> I do find it interesting that in every industrialized country, the sex
> ratio at birth is pretty much 1.05 male to female. It seems humanity
> naturally over-produces males. I liked the theory one of my textbooks
> suggested. Males tend to die off quicker than females due to
> "misadventure". I.e., violence, hunting accidents, wars, etc.
Take a look at infant mortality, male verus female, for the
answer as to why the natural compensation. Males are more
fragile and vunerable especially before they grow up and get
involved in those "dangerous" lives. Should check on historical
rates of death in childbed of "adult" women.
later
bliss
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
C O C O A powered
Your tag lines (k) were stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!
Replicant
news:Xns95332078A8...@66.185.95.104:
>
> Thus, I am correct, and you have NOT read the examples I gave, and are
> thus unqualified to speak of them.
>
I haven't read them because they don't appeal to me. I have never
considered Lobdell's writing to be any good, the She-Hulk stories I've read
in the past were not interesting, and after reading the entirety of
Claremont's 16 year run on X-Men a couple of years ago, I am thoroughly
sick and tired of the entire X-franchise. If you feel these titles are so
deserving of attention then please give me reasons why I should read them.
>
> Yes. It's even been published in the US. Bonus points for those who
> get it.
Please inform me as to what it is, as I would genuinely like to have a look
at it.
>
> Whoop-dee-fricking-doo. If that's your standard for "set apart", then
> every americomic published today is also set apart from everything
> that's come before it.
>
> The very fact you say the series "follows the standard shounen
> romantic comedy formula" and then hold it up as an example of
> innovation and freshness in manga both puts the lie to your argument
> and is incredibly sad at the same time.
>
I did not "hold it up as an example of innovation and freshness in manga".
I stated that even a very formulaic manga title manages to find a way to
put a clever twist on the material. The truly innovative titles are few and
far between, but even the most derivative manga is better than seeing old
characters going through the motions yet again. After 40+ years of stories,
who cares whether the Fantastic Four can beat Dr. Doom?
>> I would argue that the American comics industry rewards creative
>> regurgitation to such an unhealthy degree that it ends up alienating
>
> And I would argue that the same is true of manga and anime. And
> unlike you, I read both of them, and I've seen a wide if by no means
> comprehensive sampling of what both have to offer currently and in the
> last decade or so.
How does creative regurgitation in manga alienate new readers? Someone who
reads a new manga series doesn't have to deal with decades of backstory.
> Whatever floats your boat. I really don't care what you read. I'll
> just note, once again, that it makes you utterly unqualified to talk
> about the state of current Americomics in general and doubly so for
> the examples I mentioned.
I doubt very little has changed about superhero comics in the six months
since I stopped reading them. Again, what makes the titles you mentioned so
worthy of note?
>
> Why should you care about any of the characters in a manga when you
> know it will either be cancelled quickly or modified away from the
> artist's conception in order to draw in more readers based on some
> magazine editor's idea of what will appeal to the target demographic?
Because that generally doesn't happen with the titles that are imported
here, as they have a proven history of success and have been running for
some time. Anyway, the state of the manga industry (or any other
entertainment industry) has no bearing on the question I posed. I'll now
repeat it since you chose to ignore it:
Why should I care about any of the characters in a superhero comic when it
is guaranteed that a few years in the future a different writer will take
over whose interpretation of their personalities and behavior will almost
certainly be different from what I was previously reading?
If someone could provide a satisfactory answer to that question I might
consider reading superhero comics again.
Blade
news:68uNc.1244299$Ar.10...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns95332078A8...@66.185.95.104:
>
>>
>> Thus, I am correct, and you have NOT read the examples I gave, and
>> are thus unqualified to speak of them.
>>
>
> I haven't read them because they don't appeal to me. I have never
Then don't say they are revamps of concepts, nor rehashes of old stories.
> considered Lobdell's writing to be any good, the She-Hulk stories I've
> read in the past were not interesting, and after reading the entirety
> of Claremont's 16 year run on X-Men a couple of years ago, I am
> thoroughly sick and tired of the entire X-franchise. If you feel these
> titles are so deserving of attention then please give me reasons why I
> should read them.
Alpha Flight is cleverly written, very funny, and avoids the baggage of all
the previous series by more or less starting fresh. Almost all the team
members (thus far) are new characters that you get introduced to as the
series goes along. It's got a deft touch with characterisation such that I
instantly got intriguied with several of the characters when I saw Issue #
3, despite the fact said characters only appear for about four pages of the
comic. Also, it has Major Mapleleaf. 'Nuff said.
The She-Hulk stories you have read in the past were not interesting? Well,
were those She-Hulk stories ones about Jennifer Walters getting a new job
where she actually is being forced to appreciate the human form she has
despised and ignored for years, where the story is about the finer points
of superhuman law in the Marvel universe with a wickedly parodic touch,
where there is no actual fights with supervillains, and the unusual-albeit-
expressive art style is reminiscent more of League of Extraordinary
Gentlemen than anything Marvel puts out? No? Then I'd have to say the
She-Hulk stories you read in the past were not very relevent to this one.
Ultimate X-man - actually, this I go mostly from what I've heard from a few
trusted sources. I've only read one issue. But that issue was #41, and if
it was in any way representative of what the rest of the comic is like -
and I am told that it is - then it is very, very good, and is something
I've wanted to see for quite awhile: namely, a Marvel comic set in a world
with a similar concept and theme to the game Aberrant.
>> Yes. It's even been published in the US. Bonus points for those who
>> get it.
>
> Please inform me as to what it is, as I would genuinely like to have a
> look at it.
Upon reflection, I might've been slightly off on that. I was thinking of
Parasyte, using the logic "Well, Righty/Lefty is supposed to give birth, so
that makes it more or less female, right?", but it's been such a long time,
I realised I'm not sure whether Lefty -was-, in fact, supposed to give
birth. Ah well.
>> Whoop-dee-fricking-doo. If that's your standard for "set apart",
>> then every americomic published today is also set apart from
>> everything that's come before it.
>>
>> The very fact you say the series "follows the standard shounen
>> romantic comedy formula" and then hold it up as an example of
>> innovation and freshness in manga both puts the lie to your argument
>> and is incredibly sad at the same time.
>>
> I did not "hold it up as an example of innovation and freshness in
> manga". I stated that even a very formulaic manga title manages to
You used it as an example to disagree with my saying that all media,
including manga, is derivative of something else. I'm afraid it does not
strike me as a legitimate counterexample.
> find a way to put a clever twist on the material. The truly innovative
> titles are few and far between, but even the most derivative manga is
> better than seeing old characters going through the motions yet again.
I cannot agree.
I would rather see a writer trying to put a new spin on, say, Superman
(whom I've never liked), then see Yet Another Goddamn Sexist Obnoxious
Harem Comedy Like Say Ai Yori Yoshi. Period.
> After 40+ years of stories, who cares whether the Fantastic Four can
> beat Dr. Doom?
Who cares whether the geek gets the girl it is utterly obvious he is going
to get by the end of the second issue, and how the rivals fail to get the
geek or girl when it is utterly obvious they won't do so by the time they
show up?
>>> I would argue that the American comics industry rewards creative
>>> regurgitation to such an unhealthy degree that it ends up alienating
>>
>> And I would argue that the same is true of manga and anime. And
>> unlike you, I read both of them, and I've seen a wide if by no means
>> comprehensive sampling of what both have to offer currently and in
>> the last decade or so.
>
> How does creative regurgitation in manga alienate new readers? Someone
Go outside of an anime and manga forum and find out why many, many people
don't like manga.
> who reads a new manga series doesn't have to deal with decades of
> backstory.
No, just with all the accumulated trappings of decades of the genre.
Incidentally, I never read Alpha Flight. Or She-Hulk. And I haven't read
X-men in 15 years. And yet I had no trouble understanding and enjoying the
examples I mentioned above.
>> Whatever floats your boat. I really don't care what you read. I'll
>> just note, once again, that it makes you utterly unqualified to talk
>> about the state of current Americomics in general and doubly so for
>> the examples I mentioned.
>
> I doubt very little has changed about superhero comics in the six
> months since I stopped reading them. Again, what makes the titles you
> mentioned so worthy of note?
I told you. And since I doubt you were reading everything then, either,
chances are there's always been gems that slipped under your radar.
>> Why should you care about any of the characters in a manga when you
>> know it will either be cancelled quickly or modified away from the
>> artist's conception in order to draw in more readers based on some
>> magazine editor's idea of what will appeal to the target demographic?
>
> Because that generally doesn't happen with the titles that are
> imported here, as they have a proven history of success and have been
It ALWAYS happens with the titles that are imported here.
> running for some time. Anyway, the state of the manga industry (or any
You think success shields them?
It happened to Ranma. It happened to Urusei Yatsura. It happened to
Sailor Moon. It happened to Dragonball. It happened to Yuu Yuu Hakusho.
Just for starters.
> other entertainment industry) has no bearing on the question I posed.
> I'll now repeat it since you chose to ignore it:
I didn't ignore it. I pointed out that what you held up as better has, in
fact, problems that are just as bad or worse than the specific problem you
held up.
> Why should I care about any of the characters in a superhero comic
> when it is guaranteed that a few years in the future a different
> writer will take over whose interpretation of their personalities and
> behavior will almost certainly be different from what I was previously
> reading?
Because of several reasons.
1) It's not guaranteed that will happen. Often, with today's shorter runs
of comics, the comic begins and ends with the same writer. Captain Marvel,
is, AFAIK, an example.
2) The writer normally gets enough warning to give -some- closure to
things, thus allowing you to leave off at that point with a pretty
satisfiable story if you don't like what follows. Joe Kelly's fantastic
run from #1-#33 of Deadpool, for example, which stands alone and really
-should- stand alone.
3) It doesn't matter to most people who read comics. What story came
immediately before The Dark Knight Returns? Nobody knows except the
obsessed. Nobody cares, either. A good story is a good story is a good
story, and most of the big Americomics characters are iconic, well-known,
and drawn in in broad strokes. The adding of detail and colour to those
broad strokes is what the writer does in the individual storyline.
4) Even if you stick exclusively to mini-series, there's still a fair bit
of good stuff to collect.
> If someone could provide a satisfactory answer to that question I
> might consider reading superhero comics again.
<shrug> Whether it's satisfactory or not is up to you. I won't dispute
Americomics have problems...but so does manga. Neither of which will stop
me from enjoying something good.
Jamie Sayers
(Sorry to top post. That was long!) I just got back from Comic-Con too.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy yourself very much. It sounds like you mostly
went as an opportunity to further your career, but it's also supposed to
be fun. If you don't have the time to look around, I can see how it
would just be overwhelming and frustrating.
I had fun! The best part for me was the shwag. Tons of booths hand out
free stuff. I got some awesome Vampire Hunter D and other posters, a Viz
tote bag, Junko Mizuno paper doll set, some magnets and stickers,
Tokyopop sampler pack, and even some DVDs. I haven't had a chance to
look at them yet, but if they're cool maybe I can make some copies for
people. That's how I discovered Fruits Basket last year. One of my
friends got the first DVD of the series free at the convention and
burned me a copy. He's got 123 Copy DVD, which even copied the English
and Japanese tracks and subtitles. Of course this tactic worked, we were
hooked, and we're buying the rest of the series! I also got some cool
free sketches from several artists that I like.
I like all the people in costumes. They're not necessarily really weird
people. They just like dressing up for events from time to time. They
have families and jobs and normal lives, they just like a particular
movie or comic and want to have fun and be creative and dress up once or
twice a year. No different than Halloween. Some people like having the
attention and getting pictures taken. Some friends of mine used to do
this every year, but they moved away. There's no reason to be scared of
them. My favorites were all of the Captain Jack Sparrows (some of them
girls!) and some cool Vash the Stampedes and a really awesome
Nightcrawler.
I don't think you have to be a fanboy to admire people's creativity at
Comic-con. All of the neat art, great costumes, and just amazing stories
and ideas in general I think can be appreciated by anyone. I'm sorry you
didn't like it there. Even though it's expensive and crowded, I think
it's totally worth it and I'm definitely going back.
In article <ab78385b.0407...@posting.google.com>,
ambe...@yahoo.com says...
> Since there were Viz, ADV, Bandai, Tokyopop and some more, I guess
> this is not so off-topic, right? :D This is the first time I ever
> visited ComicCon. Boy was I so confused. There was one main reason for
> visiting San Diego ComicCon: Portfolio Review.
>
> I came to realize that I chose a slightly wrong path. Not many
> studios were open for portfolio review. There is always a long line
> for one. It's so crowded and hectic so editors and artists have rather
> stressful environment to review a portfolio.
>
> I missed Dark Horse, Top Cow and Devil's Due Comics for today. I
> managed to get mine reviewed by Tokyopop. They loved my portfolio
> except for one thing: They want to see more anime and manga style
> works, not some Hellboy rampaging around beating the crap out of poor
> zombies. Yeah, I had a tailor-made pencil-page portfolio for Dark
> Horse Comics, also with a dozen of creature and mechanical designs.
> The folks at Tokyopop told me to send a short manga later on. They
> told me that I have to be committed for at least a 3-volume project
> when I get pitched. I immediately came up with a short story of a
> traumatized reserve combat vetran. (What the heck are you thinking,
> Pete? It's supposed to be a manga!!! ^_^;)
>
> I barely left mt business cards at Antarctic Press and Dreamwave
> Comics. Those folks that Dreamwave pointed out some notable problems
> such as lack of background in many panels and rather stoic camera
> angles. My friend Zak Hennessy also pointed out my problems which is
> commonplace among manga and other Asian comicbooks. Hellboy didn't
> look so angry enough...
>
> I got my ass ripped at Dreamworks booth. They told me that a bunch of
> Art Center students always come to them with portfolio full of
> creatures and mecha. What they are looking for is more loose and
> family-friendly works, and also more real-world stuff. I gotta work on
> that ASAP... And some folks at Image also tore open a new one for all
> the reasons mentioned above. Certainly there are differences in
> tastes. No maater how much I try to stahy away from 'manga style', The
> panel alignements, tempo, camera angles and stuff are basically rooted
> from manga. And I happen to be a rather dull person who stick with
> more theatrical, 'dull' camera angles.
>
> I met Frank Cho, the creator of Liberty Meadows and father of
> bodacious Brandy. :) I asked when he came to the state from Korea. He
> came here when he was 6 years old. He told me that my English is very
> good for a Korean man who spent 8 years in the state. :)(Yeah, a lot
> of them are rather sloppy...) Too bad I couldn't take his picture to
> brag about... And forgot to left him my business card.
>
> But...there's one big thing I felt from that place: I didn't feel
> like belonging there. Since I started studying art I gradually
> separated from any form of fandom. I realized that I am just a casual
Jorge A Pratt
"Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9533777F8F...@66.185.95.104...
> Replicant <n...@spam.com> wrote in
> news:68uNc.1244299$Ar.10...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
> > find a way to put a clever twist on the material. The truly innovative
> > titles are few and far between, but even the most derivative manga is
> > better than seeing old characters going through the motions yet again.
>
> I cannot agree.
>
> I would rather see a writer trying to put a new spin on, say, Superman
> (whom I've never liked), then see Yet Another Goddamn Sexist Obnoxious
> Harem Comedy Like Say Ai Yori Yoshi. Period.
Then I suggest you read the "Secret Identity" Superman miniseries. While not
a milestone such as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, I find myself liking
it much, much more. It was hideously expensive for me (at about US$7 a pop,
but that's exchange rates for ya) but it was more than worth it. The last
few pages in issue 4 sold me on the entire series.
> > How does creative regurgitation in manga alienate new readers? Someone
>
> Go outside of an anime and manga forum and find out why many, many people
> don't like manga.
I don't think that's what he meant, but more on this below.
> > who reads a new manga series doesn't have to deal with decades of
> > backstory.
>
> No, just with all the accumulated trappings of decades of the genre.
That's also a separate issue, I think. Stylistic ruts in which an entire
genre falls aren't the same thing as the issues a single comic (or manga)
has with its own continuity.
> Incidentally, I never read Alpha Flight. Or She-Hulk. And I haven't read
> X-men in 15 years. And yet I had no trouble understanding and enjoying
the
> examples I mentioned above.
I think the point was that the typical American comic carries around a hefty
amount of baggage that would be perplexing to a "newbie" reader, mostly
because it has been running for quite some time and has been subjected to
various interpretations by many writers, often leading to confusing
continuity.
(I STILL don't know what the hell Onslaught is, even after seeing it in the
Marvel vs. Capcom game years ago.)
By contrast, the typical manga series is usually handled by the creator(s)
from start to finish, tends to have a more episodic nature, has a
significantly shorter run, and doesn't cross over with another series. This
also helps give a series a consistent aesthetic and narrative style which
helps identify it.
Thus, the ordinary American comic could alienate new readers while nurturing
its existing fanbase. I dunno about Marvel, but it was precisely that sort
of convoluted history that drove DC into coming up with Crisis and Zero
Hour. I haven't read X-Men in years either, but if I wanted to introduce a
kid to it he would probably have to know about, say, the Dark Phoenix, the
various "evil" mutant factions, who has been part of the team and when,
about the character relationships, and so on in order to understand the
current affairs. On the other hand, manga readers would need a primer on the
main characters and that would be pretty much it, depending on the scope of
the series --these are the Nausicaa books, such and such are the main
characters who think this way, and they're trying to accomplish this.
Of course, there are counterexamples to these broad generalizations. I can
pick up any random Superman comic and follow it easily --but I wouldn't
touch the Batman ones, because I know I'd be utterly lost. Conversely, it'd
be crazy trying to make sense of the X/1999 manga in mid-run, but Trigun
Maximum doesn't need much of Trigun aside from character descriptions.
> >> Why should you care about any of the characters in a manga when you
> >> know it will either be cancelled quickly or modified away from the
> >> artist's conception in order to draw in more readers based on some
> >> magazine editor's idea of what will appeal to the target demographic?
> >
> > Because that generally doesn't happen with the titles that are
> > imported here, as they have a proven history of success and have been
>
> It ALWAYS happens with the titles that are imported here.
>
> > running for some time. Anyway, the state of the manga industry (or any
>
> You think success shields them?
>
> It happened to Ranma. It happened to Urusei Yatsura. It happened to
> Sailor Moon. It happened to Dragonball. It happened to Yuu Yuu Hakusho.
Umm? UY was cancelled here, yes (as was Patlabor, damn.) I don't read any of
the others, but what happened to Ranma? I haven't followed the Viz releases
for a couple of years now.
> 3) It doesn't matter to most people who read comics. What story came
> immediately before The Dark Knight Returns? Nobody knows except the
> obsessed. Nobody cares, either.
Eh? I always thought DKR was completely stand-alone, like Watchmen...
The Zephyr
(Not arguing one way or another, but acknowledging how hard it is for a new
reader to get into an existing American comic these days.)
Chris Sobieniak
>They tried mailing out surveys, but no-one could
>read them; they were as bad as the voting cards.
Hahahaha!
>In statistics like this I wonder: what of people who
>read in their native language, but not in English?
>What of people who are blind? Comotose? Not
>allowed pencils?
Never had that in mind!
>Also in the factbook:
>Sex ratio:
>at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
>under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
>15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
>65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
>total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
>This baffles me; I can understand that most people
>have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
>does the higher ratio of males in underage sex
>reflect the prevalence of gang related activity? Or
>does this represent Shounen-Ai? And why are
>newborns having sex anyway? We see that old
>women are having more sex than are old men; that
>seems likely, but has the introduction of Viagra
>changed that at all?
>-Galen
That's the reason why I find it hard to understand the world we live in
these days! I'd rather just not bother knowing more than I have to!
From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak
--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Chris Sobieniak
(Ethan Hammond) wrote:
>"Chris Sobieniak" <chrism...@webtv.net> wrote
>in message
>>>definition: age 15 and over can read and write
>>>total population: 97%
>>>male: 97%
>>>female: 97% (1979 est.)
>>much has that number changed between 1989
>>government to find these figures out. :-(
>Oh they have more current numbers, but it
>wouldn't be In The National Interest to use them!!!!
Yes, leave it to the government to hide it's ass over these more
important issues!
Blade
news:2mnij1F...@uni-berlin.de:
> news:Xns9533777F8F...@66.185.95.104...
>> Replicant <n...@spam.com> wrote in
>> news:68uNc.1244299$Ar.10...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
>
>> > find a way to put a clever twist on the material. The truly
>> > innovative titles are few and far between, but even the most
>> > derivative manga is better than seeing old characters going through
>> > the motions yet again.
>>
>> I cannot agree.
>>
>> I would rather see a writer trying to put a new spin on, say,
>> Superman (whom I've never liked), then see Yet Another Goddamn Sexist
>> Obnoxious Harem Comedy Like Say Ai Yori Yoshi. Period.
>
> Then I suggest you read the "Secret Identity" Superman miniseries.
> While not a milestone such as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, I find
> myself liking it much, much more. It was hideously expensive for me
> (at about US$7 a pop, but that's exchange rates for ya) but it was
> more than worth it. The last few pages in issue 4 sold me on the
> entire series.
If I see a GN, I might take a look. I liked Joe Kelly doing Supes (and
his Superman in Japan, while criminally foreshortened, had some really
neat stuff), but I like almost anything Kelly does.
>> > How does creative regurgitation in manga alienate new readers?
>> > Someone
>>
>> Go outside of an anime and manga forum and find out why many, many
>> people don't like manga.
>
> I don't think that's what he meant, but more on this below.
<shrug> It answers the question he asked.
>> > who reads a new manga series doesn't have to deal with decades of
>> > backstory.
>>
>> No, just with all the accumulated trappings of decades of the genre.
>
> That's also a separate issue, I think. Stylistic ruts in which an
> entire genre falls aren't the same thing as the issues a single comic
> (or manga) has with its own continuity.
No, but it's a similar problem. Manga is very insular at times.
>> Incidentally, I never read Alpha Flight. Or She-Hulk. And I haven't
>> read X-men in 15 years. And yet I had no trouble understanding and
>> enjoying
> the
>> examples I mentioned above.
>
> I think the point was that the typical American comic carries around a
> hefty amount of baggage that would be perplexing to a "newbie" reader,
Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't.
> mostly because it has been running for quite some time and has been
> subjected to various interpretations by many writers, often leading to
> confusing continuity.
>
> (I STILL don't know what the hell Onslaught is, even after seeing it
> in the Marvel vs. Capcom game years ago.)
No idea, aside from "It's Xavier and Magneto together, or something". I
wasn't reading then.
> By contrast, the typical manga series is usually handled by the
> creator(s) from start to finish, tends to have a more episodic nature,
> has a significantly shorter run, and doesn't cross over with another
> series. This also helps give a series a consistent aesthetic and
> narrative style which helps identify it.
>
> Thus, the ordinary American comic could alienate new readers while
> nurturing its existing fanbase. I dunno about Marvel, but it was
> precisely that sort of convoluted history that drove DC into coming up
> with Crisis and Zero Hour. I haven't read X-Men in years either, but
> if I wanted to introduce a kid to it he would probably have to know
> about, say, the Dark Phoenix, the various "evil" mutant factions, who
> has been part of the team and when, about the character relationships,
> and so on in order to understand the current affairs. On the other
> hand, manga readers would need a primer on the main characters and
> that would be pretty much it, depending on the scope of the series
> --these are the Nausicaa books, such and such are the main characters
> who think this way, and they're trying to accomplish this.
>
> Of course, there are counterexamples to these broad generalizations. I
> can pick up any random Superman comic and follow it easily --but I
> wouldn't touch the Batman ones, because I know I'd be utterly lost.
> Conversely, it'd be crazy trying to make sense of the X/1999 manga in
> mid-run, but Trigun Maximum doesn't need much of Trigun aside from
> character descriptions.
But all the examples I gave were easy for me to pick up and follow
without the backstory (and all are relatively new series', too). Most
Americomics I've -ever- collected were not from Issue #1's...so obviously
I was able to catch on in mid-stream as a rule.
>> >> Why should you care about any of the characters in a manga when
>> >> you know it will either be cancelled quickly or modified away from
>> >> the artist's conception in order to draw in more readers based on
>> >> some magazine editor's idea of what will appeal to the target
>> >> demographic?
>> >
>> > Because that generally doesn't happen with the titles that are
>> > imported here, as they have a proven history of success and have
>> > been
>>
>> It ALWAYS happens with the titles that are imported here.
>>
>> > running for some time. Anyway, the state of the manga industry (or
>> > any
>>
>> You think success shields them?
>>
>> It happened to Ranma. It happened to Urusei Yatsura. It happened to
>> Sailor Moon. It happened to Dragonball. It happened to Yuu Yuu
>> Hakusho.
>
> Umm? UY was cancelled here, yes (as was Patlabor, damn.) I don't read
> any of the others, but what happened to Ranma? I haven't followed the
> Viz releases for a couple of years now.
I'm not talking about the American releases, or any translations. I'm
talking about Japan, when they were originally written.
>> 3) It doesn't matter to most people who read comics. What story came
>> immediately before The Dark Knight Returns? Nobody knows except the
>> obsessed. Nobody cares, either.
>
> Eh? I always thought DKR was completely stand-alone, like Watchmen...
Whoops, confused it with a different story. But in any case, any "big"
story that gets put in GN format will do.
> The Zephyr
> (Not arguing one way or another, but acknowledging how hard it is for
> a new reader to get into an existing American comic these days.)
I don't know about that. Like I said, that's never been a problem for
me, and I've been a sporadic buyer (and thus ALWAYS a "new reader" for
all intents and purposes) for well over a decade.
Ethan Hammond
> immediately before The Dark Knight Returns? Nobody knows except the
> obsessed. Nobody cares, either. A good story is a good story is a good
> story, and most of the big Americomics characters are iconic, well-known,
> and drawn in in broad strokes. The adding of detail and colour to those
> broad strokes is what the writer does in the individual storyline.
That's not really fair since that is the best Batman story ever!!!!
And I wish they had never done a follow up to it.
Ethan Hammond
>
> (I STILL don't know what the hell Onslaught is, even after seeing it in
the
> Marvel vs. Capcom game years ago.)
I believe he was Professor X's son who we all thought had died at the end
of the Muir Island story in Uncanny X-Men #380, but actually wasn't dead
(like always),
Ethan Hammond
>
> > (I STILL don't know what the hell Onslaught is, even after seeing it in
> the
> > Marvel vs. Capcom game years ago.)
>
> I believe he was Professor X's son who we all thought had died at the end
> of the Muir Island story in Uncanny X-Men #380, but actually wasn't dead
> (like always),
Make that issue #280 right before X-Men #1 and Uncanny X-Men #281 with
the blue and gold teams, back when Jim Lee did X-Men and it was the best
ever. Then they made Wolverine start wearing that lame yellow and blue
costume
instead of the brown one. I don't care what they say, brown looks more
"wild" than yellow and blue.
Ethan Hammond
> > beat Dr. Doom?
>
> Who cares whether the geek gets the girl it is utterly obvious he is going
> to get by the end of the second issue, and how the rivals fail to get the
> geek or girl when it is utterly obvious they won't do so by the time they
> show up?
Neither one!!!!
> Go outside of an anime and manga forum and find out why many, many people
> don't like manga.
It is twofold, racism and jealousy!!!!
Ethan Hammond
>wouldn't be In The National Interest to use them!!!!
>
>Yes, leave it to the government to hide it's ass over these more
>important issues!
Well we can't have the world think we is illiterate!!!!
Replicant
than providing a counter argument, and now you admit that you're largely
relying on second hand information for one of the titles you so vigorously
defended. I make criticisms of the comics industry, and you respond by
drawing comparisons to an unrelated entertainment industry, as if that
somehow pardons the state of American comics. I should have listened to the
others, you're not worth arguing with.
Fact is, when I get tired of reading shonen comedies, I can pick up
something like Gunmn or Berserk. When I get tired of superhero comics,
Marvel and DC offer...more superhero comics.
I rather like American comics, but the fanbase's attachment to the
superhero universes has had a damaging impact on the industry in the long
run, and I don't feel that I'm alone in saying this.
Michelle Klein-Hass
> (Sorry to top post. That was long!) I just got back from Comic-Con too.
> I'm sorry you didn't enjoy yourself very much. It sounds like you mostly
> went as an opportunity to further your career, but it's also supposed to
> be fun. If you don't have the time to look around, I can see how it
> would just be overwhelming and frustrating.
I was there all 4 1/2 days (counting Preview Night) and I missed a lot
too.
> I had fun! The best part for me was the shwag. Tons of booths hand out
> free stuff. I got some awesome Vampire Hunter D and other posters, a Viz
> tote bag, Junko Mizuno paper doll set, some magnets and stickers,
> Tokyopop sampler pack, and even some DVDs. I haven't had a chance to
> look at them yet, but if they're cool maybe I can make some copies for
> people. That's how I discovered Fruits Basket last year. One of my
> friends got the first DVD of the series free at the convention and
> burned me a copy. He's got 123 Copy DVD, which even copied the English
> and Japanese tracks and subtitles. Of course this tactic worked, we were
> hooked, and we're buying the rest of the series! I also got some cool
> free sketches from several artists that I like.
My favorite bit of swag was the "Manhwa" sampler that the Korean Chamber
of Commerce put out. Apparently they had the same people who translated
the videogame Zero Wing translate the manhwa stories because there is some
absolutely hilarious Engrish in there. Great art, plus dialogue that will
have you rolling around the floor clutching your sides in a feeble attempt
to prevent them from bursting. Some people got some rather burly
dufflebags with the Highlander logo on them...I don't know who was giving
them away because I missed out. They would have come in handy on the
floor.
> I like all the people in costumes. They're not necessarily really weird
> people. They just like dressing up for events from time to time. They
> have families and jobs and normal lives, they just like a particular
> movie or comic and want to have fun and be creative and dress up once or
> twice a year. No different than Halloween. Some people like having the
> attention and getting pictures taken. Some friends of mine used to do
> this every year, but they moved away. There's no reason to be scared of
> them. My favorites were all of the Captain Jack Sparrows (some of them
> girls!) and some cool Vash the Stampedes and a really awesome
> Nightcrawler.
Lots of very detailed Star Wars-related costumes, too. Whole units of
Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers. Enough Jedi to re-fight the Clone War.
However, I still think that one girl who cosplayed as Go-Go Yubari from
Kill Bill vol. 1 at AX was the best cosplay I've seen all year. The girl
had an uncanny resemblance to Kuriyama Chiaki to start with so that helped
plenty, plus her schoolgirl outfit was meticulously correct. Next year
she's going to be back, and her ball weapon will have all the spikes and
blades on it in all the correct places.
As for me? I still have this idea of going as a Neko-Miko. At AX there
were tons of girls with neko ears and tails. There were also quite a few
dressed as Miko. I think the combination would work as well as Reese's
Peanut Butter Cups. "You got Miko on my Neko!" "No, you got Neko on my
Miko!" Hopefully by the time Anime-LA happens I will get it together to do
a trial run.
> I don't think you have to be a fanboy to admire people's creativity at
> Comic-con. All of the neat art, great costumes, and just amazing stories
> and ideas in general I think can be appreciated by anyone. I'm sorry you
> didn't like it there. Even though it's expensive and crowded, I think
> it's totally worth it and I'm definitely going back.
Absolutely to both observations. I saw quite a few "mundanes" milling
about, enjoying themselves as they drank in the creativity and fun of the
convention. Not everyone will become infected with the fanboy/Otaku germ,
but most will have to admit how fun it was.
As far as going back to Comic-Con, my 2005 "membership" has already been
paid for. It's sheer insanity but tons of fun. Gotta do the same with AX
too. Actually I might celebrate receiving my AA from LA Valley College
there at AX. Anaheim is close enough to LA to maybe even attract family
members as well as friends.
--
Ms. Geek (Michelle Klein-Hass)...terrorizing Usenet since 1992!
Charter member, SPCM, (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Menchi)
"Families of Japan, it is not too late to enjoy Turkey with Gravy." -- Kaga
Blade
news:zqQNc.1287556$Ar.7...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
> I remain unconvinced. In your first response to me you insulted me
> rather than providing a counter argument, and now you admit that
You didn't provide an argument to counter. In addition, all I did was
make an observation that if you believed what you said, you were not very
intelligent. You are failing to convince me that was anything other than
an accurate observation.
> you're largely relying on second hand information for one of the
> titles you so vigorously defended. I make criticisms of the comics
Except that I had read an issue which backed up what I was told. In
addition, I provided detailed analysis of the two others which I was
well-familiar with.
You, on the other hand, made judgements about all three despite not
having so much as read a single issue.
Hypocrisy is unbecoming, sir.
> industry, and you respond by drawing comparisons to an unrelated
> entertainment industry, as if that somehow pardons the state of
An unrelated entertainment industry that YOU PRESENTED as a better
alternative (and present again in the next paragraph).
Hypocrisy remains unbecoming, sir.
> American comics. I should have listened to the others, you're not
> worth arguing with.
<yawn> Yes, unintelligent people who like spouting off far-reaching
statements but dislike having to actually back them up often dislike
arguing with me.
> Fact is, when I get tired of reading shonen comedies, I can pick up
> something like Gunmn or Berserk. When I get tired of superhero comics,
> Marvel and DC offer...more superhero comics.
And this relates to your original point..how? Oh yes, it doesn't.
Because your original point was handily destroyed, and thus you are
frantically scrabbling backwards looking for something new to whine
about.
By the way, Marvel and DC are hardly the whole of American comics.
> I rather like American comics, but the fanbase's attachment to the
> superhero universes has had a damaging impact on the industry in the
> long run, and I don't feel that I'm alone in saying this.
I wouldn't know, since this is the first time you've brought it up and
it's essentially irrelevent to what you were arguing before.
Travers Naran
> I remain unconvinced. In your first response to me you insulted me rather
> than providing a counter argument, and now you admit that you're largely
> relying on second hand information for one of the titles you so vigorously
> defended. I make criticisms of the comics industry, and you respond by
> drawing comparisons to an unrelated entertainment industry, as if that
> somehow pardons the state of American comics. I should have listened to the
> others, you're not worth arguing with.
No one listens to poor Zathras... *cluck* *cluck* :-)
I made the mistake of "arguing" with Blade before. I again repeat my warning:
"Never argue with an idiot. He drags you down to his level and beats you
with experience."
:-)
> Fact is, when I get tired of reading shonen comedies, I can pick up
> something like Gunmn or Berserk. When I get tired of superhero comics,
> Marvel and DC offer...more superhero comics.
> I rather like American comics, but the fanbase's attachment to the
> superhero universes has had a damaging impact on the industry in the long
> run, and I don't feel that I'm alone in saying this.
*holds up a lighter* Preach on, man!!
Ethan Hammond
>
> As for me? I still have this idea of going as a Neko-Miko. At AX there
> were tons of girls with neko ears and tails. There were also quite a few
> dressed as Miko. I think the combination would work as well as Reese's
> Peanut Butter Cups. "You got Miko on my Neko!" "No, you got Neko on my
> Miko!" Hopefully by the time Anime-LA happens I will get it together to do
> a trial run.
Hmmm a neko priestess. It could work!!!!
Michelle Klein-Hass
> "Michelle Klein-Hass" <msge...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> As for me? I still have this idea of going as a Neko-Miko. At AX there
>> were tons of girls with neko ears and tails. There were also quite a
>> few dressed as Miko. I think the combination would work as well as
>> Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. "You got Miko on my Neko!" "No, you got
>> Neko on my Miko!" Hopefully by the time Anime-LA happens I will get it
>> together to do a trial run.
>
> Hmmm a neko priestess. It could work!!!!
Too bad Hakama are so damn expensive. Google some martial arts stores,
it's absolutely scandalous. And red Hakama are very scarce. I might have
to dye a white Hakama red if I go that way.
As a result, I'm beginning to lean towards a Neko no Ninja outfit instead.
Shinobi-shozuku, and I don't mean just costume-grade Shinobi-shozuku
either, but actual Martial Arts Shinobi-shozuku, can be gotten fairly
inexpensively. Cut a couple of strategic slits in the hood for the ears to
poke out, attach the tail to the belt, and bingo. This way I can also wave
a black foam rubber-padded shinai around for extra added fun.
I actually did study at a dojo that claimed to be associated with the
Koga-Yamabushi system of Ninjitsu a little less than 20 years ago. I
stopped going after I got into a bus accident. I am not sure of the dojo's
credentials as far as a claim to actual ninja lineage goes...they don't
exist anymore, and experts in martial arts history claim that the Koga
line became extinct around the Meiji Restoration.
However, they _did_ teach an interesting mix of Japanese Karate, Filipino
weapons technique, techniques that seemed like they originated in
Krav-Maga, other techniques cribbed from Jeet Kune Do (after all doesn't
everyone these days?) and some that could only be described as
street-fighting moves. I had fun there, I was fitter then than I ever had
been in my life, and I still feel if pressed I could defend myself in an
efficient and effective way. Whether or not this was Ninjitsu or not
ultimately doesn't matter. What they taught *worked*.
I also scared the living shit out of this SCA type at a medieval faire a
few years after I had to bow out of the dojo. I saw him waving a shinai
around and just happened to bring my own with me. I asked him "wanna
spar?" He said "sure" and I got into the improvised hay-bale ring with
him. He seemed to fight on rails...forward, backward, very much an
old-school fencing trained guy. I shifted around and came at him from
angles he wasn't expecting. Triangulation? A basic idea in both
American/English and Thai boxing and also in Filipino Kali/Arnis.
Apparently the guy never heard of it. The fact that I was letting out a
"kiai" every time I would strike also freaked him out. After a while, he
said "no mas" and asked me "have you ever thought of joining the SCA?" I
just smiled and walked off.
Looks like it'll be Neko no Shinobi, not Neko-Miko, for me. I think I
might get this together as early as Halloween. Nyaoow! =^_^=
Ethan Hammond
>
> Too bad Hakama are so damn expensive.
Well maybe you are overthinking the clothes aspect.
>Google some martial arts stores, it's absolutely scandalous.
>And red Hakama are very scarce. I might have
> to dye a white Hakama red if I go that way.
Even seifuku/sailor fuku seem to be really expensive on the net though.
> As a result, I'm beginning to lean towards a Neko no Ninja outfit instead.
> Shinobi-shozuku, and I don't mean just costume-grade Shinobi-shozuku
> either, but actual Martial Arts Shinobi-shozuku, can be gotten fairly
> inexpensively. Cut a couple of strategic slits in the hood for the ears to
> poke out, attach the tail to the belt, and bingo. This way I can also wave
> a black foam rubber-padded shinai around for extra added fun.
You could be a Neko Mai Shiranui from Final Fight/King of Fighters
or Neko Kasumi from Dead or Alive style ninja. Yes, indeed.
> I actually did study at a dojo that claimed to be associated with the
> Koga-Yamabushi system of Ninjitsu a little less than 20 years ago. I
> stopped going after I got into a bus accident. I am not sure of the dojo's
> credentials as far as a claim to actual ninja lineage goes...they don't
> exist anymore, and experts in martial arts history claim that the Koga
> line became extinct around the Meiji Restoration.
I have only ever done, Judo, Karate, Kendo, and Naginata. I am kind
of skepticle about places that teach Ninjitsu, but at least it isn't
Taekwondo.
Taekwondo is the Wal Mart of martail arts.
> However, they _did_ teach an interesting mix of Japanese Karate, Filipino
> weapons technique, techniques that seemed like they originated in
> Krav-Maga, other techniques cribbed from Jeet Kune Do (after all doesn't
> everyone these days?) and some that could only be described as
> street-fighting moves.
Damn Bruce Lee!!!!
>I had fun there, I was fitter then than I ever had
> been in my life, and I still feel if pressed I could defend myself in an
> efficient and effective way. Whether or not this was Ninjitsu or not
> ultimately doesn't matter. What they taught *worked*.
The problem is so much about Ninja's comes from Hollywood or
I don't know where. But from what I have really been able to find out
about actual real ninja's in history they have really been mystified
beyond the actual facts. I really don't think there have been actual
ninja since Tokugawa took power. But they are fun characters.
> I also scared the living shit out of this SCA type at a medieval faire a
> few years after I had to bow out of the dojo. I saw him waving a shinai
> around and just happened to bring my own with me. I asked him "wanna
> spar?" He said "sure" and I got into the improvised hay-bale ring with
> him. He seemed to fight on rails...forward, backward, very much an
> old-school fencing trained guy. I shifted around and came at him from
> angles he wasn't expecting. Triangulation? A basic idea in both
> American/English and Thai boxing and also in Filipino Kali/Arnis.
> Apparently the guy never heard of it. The fact that I was letting out a
> "kiai" every time I would strike also freaked him out. After a while, he
> said "no mas" and asked me "have you ever thought of joining the SCA?" I
> just smiled and walked off.
Heh. Good job, although I am against playing around with martial arts,
I also hate when people who don't know anything think they are badasses
so it is twofold!!!!
> Looks like it'll be Neko no Shinobi, not Neko-Miko, for me. I think I
> might get this together as early as Halloween. Nyaoow! =^_^=
Huwway!!!! But actually it would be neko kunoichi, I think.
Michelle Klein-Hass
> Even seifuku/sailor fuku seem to be really expensive on the net though.
Ooh yeah. JBox stocks them deep and sells them...murderously expensive.
I have only ever done, Judo, Karate, Kendo, and Naginata. I am kind
> of skepticle about places that teach Ninjitsu, but at least it isn't
> Taekwondo.
> Taekwondo is the Wal Mart of martail arts.
McDojang! Black Belt in a year or your money back!
Anyway, that's a pretty good mix of Budo. Judo, Karate (which Ryu?) Kendo
and Naginata. I'm impressed. Can't do the grappling stuff anymore because
of my injuries but I'd like to eventually get back into Japanese Karate.
Much more practical, much more centered, not as flashy but gets the job
done big time.
>>I had fun there, I was fitter then than I ever had
>> been in my life, and I still feel if pressed I could defend myself in
>> an efficient and effective way. Whether or not this was Ninjitsu or not
>> ultimately doesn't matter. What they taught *worked*.
>
> The problem is so much about Ninja's comes from Hollywood or I don't
> know where. But from what I have really been able to find out about
> actual real ninja's in history they have really been mystified beyond
> the actual facts. I really don't think there have been actual ninja
> since Tokugawa took power. But they are fun characters.
Actually there is a great deal of controversy over what the Ninja really
were. And the Shinobi Shozuku is by-and-large an invention of Japanese
Chambara cinema...the outfit they wear is an adaptation of that worn by
Bunraku puppeteers. If the Ninja were spies, which is the most likely
realistic concept of what they were, they would have likely worn outfits
that would blend in with the people they were hiding among.
>
>> I also scared the living shit out of this SCA type at a medieval faire
>> a few years after I had to bow out of the dojo. I saw him waving a
>> shinai around and just happened to bring my own with me. I asked him
>> "wanna spar?" He said "sure" and I got into the improvised hay-bale
>> ring with him. He seemed to fight on rails...forward, backward, very
>> much an old-school fencing trained guy. I shifted around and came at
>> him from angles he wasn't expecting. Triangulation? A basic idea in
>> both American/English and Thai boxing and also in Filipino Kali/Arnis.
>> Apparently the guy never heard of it. The fact that I was letting out a
>> "kiai" every time I would strike also freaked him out. After a while,
>> he said "no mas" and asked me "have you ever thought of joining the
>> SCA?" I just smiled and walked off.
>
> Heh. Good job, although I am against playing around with martial arts,
> I also hate when people who don't know anything think they are badasses
> so it is twofold!!!!
It was all in fun...I've had harder sparring sessions back when I was an
active member of the dojo. I pulled my strikes. Tap, tap, tap. Agreed, the
Martial Arts are not to be trifled with.
>
>> Looks like it'll be Neko no Shinobi, not Neko-Miko, for me. I think I
>> might get this together as early as Halloween. Nyaoow! =^_^=
>
> Huwway!!!! But actually it would be neko kunoichi, I think.
Yes, it would be Neko-Kunoichi. You're right. =^_^=
Widya Santoso
Oh, Ms. G., I wanted to ask, how was the bootleg situationa at SDCC? As
bad as it used to be, or did the recent crack down at AX have the
requisite effect?
--
Widya Santoso wsan...@nyx.net +61 2 6288-0405
The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep
-- Stopping by woods on a Snowy Evening - Robert Frost
Ethan Hammond
>
> Ooh yeah. JBox stocks them deep and sells them...murderously expensive.
Yeah, I can't imagine they cost nearly as much in Japan.
>> I have only ever done, Judo, Karate, Kendo, and Naginata. I am kind
> > of skepticle about places that teach Ninjitsu, but at least it isn't
> > Taekwondo.
> > Taekwondo is the Wal Mart of martail arts.
>
> McDojang! Black Belt in a year or your money back!
Heh.
> Anyway, that's a pretty good mix of Budo. Judo, Karate (which Ryu?) Kendo
> and Naginata. I'm impressed. Can't do the grappling stuff anymore because
> of my injuries but I'd like to eventually get back into Japanese Karate.
> Much more practical, much more centered, not as flashy but gets the job
> done big time.
Yeah no matter how they tell you to slap that matt in Judo it will still
hurt. Well pretty much I think you can't do martial arts without getting
hurt. I have no idea what Ryu, whatever Ryu generic karate is I guess.
> Actually there is a great deal of controversy over what the Ninja really
> were. And the Shinobi Shozuku is by-and-large an invention of Japanese
> Chambara cinema...the outfit they wear is an adaptation of that worn by
> Bunraku puppeteers. If the Ninja were spies, which is the most likely
> realistic concept of what they were, they would have likely worn outfits
> that would blend in with the people they were hiding among.
I think so too and that most ninja talk in the US is a bunch of nonsense.
> > Heh. Good job, although I am against playing around with martial arts,
> > I also hate when people who don't know anything think they are badasses
> > so it is twofold!!!!
>
> It was all in fun...I've had harder sparring sessions back when I was an
> active member of the dojo. I pulled my strikes. Tap, tap, tap. Agreed, the
> Martial Arts are not to be trifled with.
Most people I have seen who play around too much usually end up with
broken bones and learn the leson the hard way.
> >> Looks like it'll be Neko no Shinobi, not Neko-Miko, for me. I think I
> >> might get this together as early as Halloween. Nyaoow! =^_^=
>
> > Huwway!!!! But actually it would be neko kunoichi, I think.
>
> Yes, it would be Neko-Kunoichi. You're right. =^_^=
Indeed!!!! And what about a Mai Shiranui/Kasumi style
outfit!!!!
Galen Musbach
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Michelle Klein-Hass" <msge...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>
>> >> Looks like it'll be Neko no Shinobi, not Neko-Miko, for me. I think I
>> >> might get this together as early as Halloween. Nyaoow! =^_^=
>>
>> > Huwway!!!! But actually it would be neko kunoichi, I think.
>>
>> Yes, it would be Neko-Kunoichi. You're right. =^_^=
>
>Indeed!!!! And what about a Mai Shiranui/Kasumi style
>outfit!!!!
Or Shinobu from Shinobuden.
-Galen
Michelle Klein-Hass
> "Michelle Klein-Hass" <msge...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> Oh, Ms. G., I wanted to ask, how was the bootleg situationa at SDCC? As
> bad as it used to be, or did the recent crack down at AX have the
> requisite effect?
Nope. Absolutely crawling with boots at Comic-Con. However, not much
Anime. Lots of old US cartoon shows, particularly those with comic book
heroes, some Sentai, lots of HK and Chop-Socky. Oh yeah, rock concert DVD
bootlegs, for some reason.
Michelle Klein-Hass
It looks like I'm going to be playing around with a lot of stuff. I think
I might go with mixing and matching...have to drop in at my local
Army/Navy store for some accesorizing. You'll see some pix, don't worry.
It will certainly NOT look like that Ninja chick in DOA, though. I simply
don't have the body to carry that off.
Widya Santoso
>Nope. Absolutely crawling with boots at Comic-Con. However, not much
>Anime. Lots of old US cartoon shows, particularly those with comic book
>heroes, some Sentai, lots of HK and Chop-Socky. Oh yeah, rock concert DVD
>bootlegs, for some reason.
Anime booties was what I was thinking of, so if there was less of those,
so much the better. Were there any idiot fans carrying signs?
Antonio E. Gonzalez
>Date: 8/2/2004 4:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <pan.2004.08.02....@yahoo.com>
>
>On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:27:02 -0600, Widya Santoso opined:
>
>> "Michelle Klein-Hass" <msge...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> Oh, Ms. G., I wanted to ask, how was the bootleg situationa at SDCC? As
>> bad as it used to be, or did the recent crack down at AX have the
>> requisite effect?
>
>Nope. Absolutely crawling with boots at Comic-Con. However, not much
>Anime. Lots of old US cartoon shows, particularly those with comic book
>heroes, some Sentai, lots of HK and Chop-Socky. Oh yeah, rock concert DVD
>bootlegs, for some reason.
>
At the Adult Swim panel, an audience member asked what they thought of the
bootlegs being sold downstairs; they responded that they liked anything that
kept their viewers happy, and their products moving, which got a loud cheer
from the crowd . . .
- Vaughner
- "I'm too young and too male to be the mother of a seventeen year old female
me!!!"
- Elliot Dunkel, "El Goonish Shive"
Ethan Hammond
> I might go with mixing and matching...have to drop in at my local
> Army/Navy store for some accesorizing. You'll see some pix, don't worry.
>
> It will certainly NOT look like that Ninja chick in DOA, though. I simply
> don't have the body to carry that off.
That's what padding is for PADDING!!!! *SHAKES FIST* No one wants
to go with the cosplay plans I suggest. *sighs*
Ethan Hammond
>
> At the Adult Swim panel, an audience member asked what they thought of
the
> bootlegs being sold downstairs; they responded that they liked anything
that
> kept their viewers happy, and their products moving, which got a loud
cheer
> from the crowd . . .
That's because Williams Street really dosen't give a shat. They are not
really in it for the money.
Rick
"elsie" <lcub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QAiNc.16342$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Galen Musbach" <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message
> news:vjbbg05g3rl8i72o1...@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:06:29 GMT, "elsie" <lcub...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Galen Musbach" <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message
> > >news:1o3bg05026l6ibm10...@4ax.com...
> > >
> > >> Also in the factbook:
> > >>
> > >> Sex ratio:
> > >> at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
> > >> under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
> > >> 15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
> > >> 65 years and over: 0.71 male(s)/female
> > >> total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
> > >>
> > >> This baffles me; I can understand that most people
> > >> have sex in a ratio of one male to one female, but
> > >> does the higher ratio of males in underage sex reflect
> > >> the prevalence of gang related activity? Or does this
> > >> represent Shounen-Ai? And why are newborns having
> > >> sex anyway? We see that old women are having more
> > >> sex than are old men; that seems likely, but has the
> > >> introduction of Viagra changed that at all?
> > >>
> > >> -Galen
> > >
> > >Either you're putting us on, or you're reading this incorrectly.
> > I was trying to be funny; sorry.
>
> Thought as much, but figured I might as well explain it for the people who
> actually are idiots.
> >
> > > I'll proceed under the assumption that you don't understand what this
is
> actually
> > >saying. It's not talking about sex; it's talking about the ratio of
males
> to
> > >females at various ages. More newborn males are born than females, but
> more
> > >women survive to be 65 and older.
> > >
> > >laurie
> > >
> > So, 5% more males than females die in childhood?
> > Is that because boys are supposed to play with guns
> > while girls play with dolls?
> >
> I don't have any statistics, but I think there are two factors. Boys are
> more apt to have genetic diseases than girls. Also I think boys are more
> likely to die in accidents than girls are.
>
> > It would be interesting to see an accurate survey of what
> > ratios people have sex in, but everyone would lie.
> >
> > -Galen
> laurie
>
Well they're are allot of idiots out there the Democrat party is one reason
the popularity of Shreck is another.
Rick
"Travers Naran" <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote in message
news:JLXNc.132450$eO.98462@edtnps89...
Boy I haven't heard zathros in a long time what ever happened to him.