Racism in Love Hina?
alan
But characters of her nature (who show up in other animes) are usually dark
skinned, so...
I had one of my Japanese buds tell me that the Japanese don't like Indians
much.
If you want to offend your indian buddies, you should show them NieA_7, and
the blurbs that come after the ending credits
"Thik" <Th...@nospammail.nospam> wrote in message
news:9cvlb...@drn.newsguy.com...
> A few days ago, several of my friends from India were offended when I
showed
> them the bilingual manga version of "Love Hina, especially how the
character of
> Kaolla Su is depicted. They took offense that the manga made Indians look
> "pathetic" and like to "act like animals." What offended them the most is
what
> Su did between her and Keitarou. I tried to tell my friends that Su is not
from
> India, and her origins are not specified. I told them that the Indian
reference
> came from Keitarou who really does not know where Su came from.
Unfortunately,
> my friends are not swayed and still insist that Su is a negative depiction
of
> Indians.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> -Thik
>
DAVID A MILLER
"Thik" <Th...@nospammail.nospam> wrote in message
news:9cvlb...@drn.newsguy.com...
> A few days ago, several of my friends from India were offended when I
showed
> them the bilingual manga version of "Love Hina, especially how the
character of
> Kaolla Su is depicted. They took offense that the manga made Indians look
> "pathetic" and like to "act like animals." What offended them the most is
what
> Su did between her and Keitarou. I tried to tell my friends that Su is not
from
> India, and her origins are not specified. I told them that the Indian
reference
> came from Keitarou who really does not know where Su came from.
Unfortunately,
> my friends are not swayed and still insist that Su is a negative depiction
of
> Indians.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
for Pete's sake. Two, the girl is not from India. Three, are those
individuals so paranoid that they would be offended by a cartoon character?
I'm old enough to remember how Black Americans were depicted in old cartoons
in the movies and on TV, literally as senseless buffoons ('dat rhymes wit'
coons). That was then. You can't find those old animations because of the
offense they will give to more modern audiences.
If anything, Kaolla is a credit to whatever race she is supposed to be a
parody of, because she can construct mecha, solve complex and difficult
problems ( or at least not make them worse) and still be cheerful, happy and
well-adjusted despite exposure to red moonlight.
David
Who isn't offended by the violent "n***a" in "Black Heaven, either...
Brad Jackson
>came from Keitarou who really does not know where Su came from. Unfortunately,
>my friends are not swayed and still insist that Su is a negative depiction of
>Indians.
>
>What does everyone think?
I always assumed she was from Africa or South America, not India. I've
only seen the first four episodes so far though....
Similarly, I can't see anything wrong with the character, she acts silly,
immature, and foolish, but so does every other character on the show.
If they want to see *real* racism at work, find some of the really early
Disney and Warner Brother's stuff. They've got "negros" who look like someone
in blackface and seem to have the IQ of a retarded cockroach. Nasty stuff.
--
Brad Jackson, coordinator for Hentai Con
http://www.hentaicon.homestead.com
Keith Ng
--
Keith Ng
E-mail: aa...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Scott Fujimoto
anywhere in particular. Who knows, she may not even
be from Earth. So methinks that your friends are a
little bit hypersensitive.
Tanya from BAV, OTOH, is specifically supposed to
be from "Africa", so I can see how that might raise
some hackles...
--Scott
"To sacrifice oneself in war is an act of courage." --Admiral Dessler
"Yes, but to sacrifice no-one is an act of genius." --Dr. Kitaguchi
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
DAVID A MILLER wrote:
> David
> Who isn't offended by the violent "n***a" in "Black Heaven, either...
It's weird how the dub of that scene makes all the world of difference.
Later....
Kwesi K.
Robyn, Duke of Amber
you mean Africa is where cat-girls come from?
or just this specific one?
N.
On 5 May 2001, Scott Fujimoto wrote:
> Date: 05 May 2001 04:53:34 GMT
> From: Scott Fujimoto <scottf...@aol.comsv2>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime.misc
> Subject: Re: Racism in Love Hina?
__________________________________________________________________
_____________
Seraphim, the Restless Angel with a (borrowed) sword.
________
Nene, Ami,
Girls with glasses. girls with computers. Pink hair. blue hair
_______________________
Robyn, Duke of Amber. Agent of Chaos.
***************************************************************************
Bienvenue777
it's always nice to see a dark skin or anime character of color ^__^
(by the wayt the term negro is offensive; speaking as an
African-American...don't want to sound PC or anal but it's similar to calling
an Asian American ---"Oriental" outdated and has negative connotations)
Anyways, I haven't seen Love Hina yet so I can't comment on it but Nadia
origins are African; other anime featuring "ethnic" characters include Utena
(i.e. Anthy; Akio and Mamiya) Sol Bianca (Feb) Gal Force; Battle Althelete
(Tanya) ...ummh that's all I can think off right now .
Ja
Mona
Led Mirage
>A few days ago, several of my friends from India were offended when I showed
>them the bilingual manga version of "Love Hina, especially how the character of
>Kaolla Su is depicted. They took offense that the manga made Indians look
>"pathetic" and like to "act like animals." What offended them the most is what
>Su did between her and Keitarou. I tried to tell my friends that Su is not from
>India, and her origins are not specified. I told them that the Indian reference
>came from Keitarou who really does not know where Su came from. Unfortunately,
>my friends are not swayed and still insist that Su is a negative depiction of
>Indians.
>
>What does everyone think?
I think your friends are way too sensitive. If they insist on looking
too much into things, then oh well. Their loss.
Led Mirage
<acf...@yahoo.do_not_spam_me.com> wrote:
>If I were to guess, she is more African than Indian.
>But characters of her nature (who show up in other animes) are usually dark
>skinned, so...
>I had one of my Japanese buds tell me that the Japanese don't like Indians
>much.
>If you want to offend your indian buddies, you should show them NieA_7, and
>the blurbs that come after the ending credits
NieA_7, that was exactly what I was thinking. That's some pretty
severe racism there.
alan
What was that guy saying in the ending blurbs? And if the guy saying it is
actually Indian, well then...
"Led Mirage" <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3af6af7a...@news.netvigator.com...
Matthew Cline
terrible Great Old Ones, and imparted unto us these blasphemous
ravings:
> I always assumed she was from Africa or South America, not India.
> I've only seen the first four episodes so far though....
Having seen all but the last two episodes, I'm guessing that she's not
even from Earth.
> Similarly, I can't see anything wrong with the character, she acts
> silly, immature, and foolish, but so does every other character on
> the show.
Well, she eats bananas alot, is real good at climbing, and sleeps in a
tree, so you might get the impression that she's being portrayed as a
monkey. But aside from those things, she seems to me to be what
Washu-chan must have been like when she was a kid; she's just a
pre-puebescent mad-scientist with some quirks (or at least a few more
quirks than the average mad-scientist).
--
Matthew Cline | Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose that
ma...@nightrealms.com | you were a member of Congress. But I repeat
| myself. -- Mark Twain
kuniSLAYERshujo
> A few days ago, several of my friends from India were offended when I showed
> them the bilingual manga version of "Love Hina, especially how the character of
> Kaolla Su is depicted. They took offense that the manga made Indians look
> "pathetic" and like to "act like animals." What offended them the most is what
> Su did between her and Keitarou. I tried to tell my friends that Su is not from
> India, and her origins are not specified. I told them that the Indian reference
> came from Keitarou who really does not know where Su came from. Unfortunately,
> my friends are not swayed and still insist that Su is a negative depiction of
> Indians.
>
> What does everyone think?
[begin rant]
Everyone's being too polite. Your friends have total sticks up their
ass, period.
Even if Su's character DID make fun of Indians, they should suck it up
and get made fun of. There's a difference between making fun of a
culture and being prejudiced against a culture. There's nothing wrong
with having pride in one's culture, but that doesn't mean they have to
be totally humorless about it either. If a culture can't laugh at
themselves once in a while, they don't deserve respect, in my opinion.
[end rant]
K.
Alexander Harris
>Tanya from BAV, OTOH, is specifically supposed to
>be from "Africa", so I can see how that might raise
>some hackles...
I was wondering when someone would bring her up.
You know, as a black person, I couldn't help but laugh AND be offended at the
same time. That shit was just_too_funny.
Alexander Harris
Also somewhat offended by Su, but her cuteness (and her adult form) makes up or
it.
_______________
Animenewsnetwork.com's new Magic User's Club preview and Child's Toy review:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/Mahou/MagicUsersClubPreview.php
Shadow6865
What does everyone think?
>>
I think that there are a lot of times in many different animes and mangas
where the creator does not intend for a character to be considered racist or
stereotypical but ends up being so. This is not because of political
correctness but because of how the character is portrayed. Many foreign
characters in anime and manga have humor value because they do not understand
Japan totally and make silly mistakes. Usually these things are not
understanding cultural norms or speaking the language incorrectly (like
refering to oneself in the 3rd person) These can be preceived with decent
justification by someone as racist because it implies a constant inability to
appreciate, understand or even go along with Japanese culture. Foreigners no
matter how will liked are always outsiders.
Then there are sometimes when anime can be racist. My friend was telling me
about Marmelade Boy episodes where the cast goes to New York. He said that one
of the main girl (Miki?) gets lost in Harlem and that the portryal of Harlem
was very stereotypical and racist. Though I suppose the Japanese stereotype of
Harlem is no different than the person from rural United States.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
Yeah, even Tezuka copied those for some of his black charas. ;)
I guess it's a bit easy to get away with these things in Japan
since there's hardly any protest voices there.
Heck, even the more numerous Korean Japanese have it bad.
Still, due to mass media reaching wider than ever,
the greater the chances that some people would get offended,
so it seems everybody is getting sensitive these days,
from Jews to blacks to Asians to Muslims to Native Americans, etc.
Though sometimes their protests are rightfully so.
I guess this'll just be on a case-by-case basis type and
depending on the group itself that feels they're being oppressed.
Laters. =)
STan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/___ |__| |__|___| \ ___|
Shadow6865
only seen the first four episodes so far though.... >>
Speaking of characters from Africa. I heard that many people were offended by
one of the characters from Battle Atheletes because she is supposed to be from
Africa. They thought her animlistic looks and behaviour were quite racist.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> In article <9cvlb...@drn.newsguy.com>, Th...@nospammail.nospam says...
> > A few days ago, several of my friends from India were offended when I showed
> > them the bilingual manga version of "Love Hina, especially how the character of
> > Kaolla Su is depicted. They took offense that the manga made Indians look
> > "pathetic" and like to "act like animals." What offended them the most is what
> > Su did between her and Keitarou. I tried to tell my friends that Su is not from
> > India, and her origins are not specified. I told them that the Indian reference
> > came from Keitarou who really does not know where Su came from. Unfortunately,
> > my friends are not swayed and still insist that Su is a negative depiction of
> > Indians.
> >
> > What does everyone think?
>
> [begin rant]
>
> Everyone's being too polite. Your friends have total sticks up their
> ass, period.
>
People tend to be "polite" in such delicate matters
because no (ethnic) group wants to be hardline since
they never know when it would be their turn to be oppressed
and so they would then need the other groups' help.
BTW, this is by no means exclusive to ethnic groups;
it's actually a common policy, such as among different unions
(you'd never hear a union complain against another union,
but rather sometimes you'd see when one union strikes,
a related union would strike too in sympathy).
It can be used as a good protection strategy.
Laters. =)
Stan
Tolaris
>[begin rant]
>
>Everyone's being too polite. Your friends have total sticks up their
>ass, period.
>
>Even if Su's character DID make fun of Indians, they should suck it up
>and get made fun of. There's a difference between making fun of a
>culture and being prejudiced against a culture.
--
Sometimes, there is; sometimes there isn't. Quite often you
can't really tell for sure if the former isn't a result of
the latter..
>There's nothing wrong
>with having pride in one's culture, but that doesn't mean they have to
>be totally humorless about it either. If a culture can't laugh at
>themselves once in a while, they don't deserve respect, in my opinion.
--
Well, i don't quite see how the fact someone disliked _one_
instance of being ridiculed in a tv show targeted at wide
audience, means they're "totally humorless"... o.o;
Tolaris
noting idly there isn't that much of technical difference
between a stick up one's ass and the spine...
--
just before he died, he said:
"Well, if you didn't belch, who did?"
Tolaris
>instance of being ridiculed in a tv show targeted at wide
>audience,
--
D'oh. manga, not tv show... --;;
Tolaris
--
just before he died, he said:
"I finally shot that owl that's been folowing you around!"
vincent loza
growing up in Mesquite, Tx. who was constantly called the "N" name because that was
what they thought that any one that didn`t have white skin was.
kuniSLAYERshujo wrote:
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
Arnold Kim
Keith Ng <aa...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:9cvvm5$83s$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
As I mentioned in another thread, several characters in the Macross universe
give a positive portrayal of blacks.
Arnold Kim
Scott Schimmel
> Then there are sometimes when anime can be racist. My friend was telling me
>about Marmelade Boy episodes where the cast goes to New York. He said that one
>of the main girl (Miki?) gets lost in Harlem and that the portryal of Harlem
>was very stereotypical and racist. Though I suppose the Japanese stereotype of
>Harlem is no different than the person from rural United States.
Have to disagree there; I didn't see anything particularly racist in
that episode (or that anime as a whole). The level of danger in
Harlem may have been exaggerated... but 40 episodes earlier, so was
the level of danger at a Japanese resort. Standard shoujo drama.
IIRC, it was a pair of black characters who helped Miki out in the
Harlem situation, too...
Scott Schimmel http://schimmel.sandwich.net
* Ex ignorantia ad sapientium; ex luce ad tenebras. *
"You really aren't normal, are you?" - Miki Koishikawa
paranormalized
wrote:
>obviously your a white person who never had to deal with this. I was a hispanic
>growing up in Mesquite, Tx. who was constantly called the "N" name because that was
>what they thought that any one that didn`t have white skin was.
>
Ah, the refreshing viewpoint of the American West. Where my Dad was
greeted into a small Oregon town 30 years ago with the prideful
admission that their city had only a few blacks and no Orientals...
Having married a Japanese American, the discussion went downhill
quickly...
Anyone else think the West is where all the worst racists have gone
now? They don't have to deal regularly w/ blacks or other minorities
unlike the South or more urban areas, and I think I remember as a fact
that Boise, Idaho has one of the strongest conclaves of the Klu Klux
Klan around....
Jonathan Fisher
who likes the slow death of rural America as a result.. isolation is a
bad thing, IMHO
------
Paranormalized man, Supernaturalized citizen, and Sub-normalized otaku....
To email, change proprietary to free, org to com.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
"Robyn, Duke of Amber" wrote:
>
> you mean Africa is where cat-girls come from?
> or just this specific one?
I don't think that, her being a cat-girl is the problem.
Tanya being a wild an untamed African in the FUTURE would be the
problem. Especially when she seems to be the only person in the cast
that seems to act like an animal.
Later....
Kwesi K.
(geez this is a strange week on this group....)
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
kuniSLAYERshujo wrote:
> [begin rant]
>
> Everyone's being too polite. Your friends have total sticks up their
> ass, period.
All right stop.
So you mean to tell me that regardless of whatever history any group of
people have with racist images or dogma perpetuated about them, they
should just get over what it is they find offensive and learn to suck it up?
Sorry that is straight up BULL-SHIT.
EVERYONE has a right to be offended at something they recognize as
offensive TO THEM. That also goes for stating so openly. You may have
no clue as to the how and why that offense is being committed but your
perspective is irrelevant. Especially when the best solution you can
give is to get a sense of humor.
Now, aside from turning the insult back on the insulted, why not try to
figure out why they find the character's depiction so offensive in the
first place? Maybe then you would come to understand a broader view of
the world than the narrow one you revel in so smugly.
Later....
Kwesi K.
alan
"paranormalized" <jfi...@proprietarymail.clarksville.org> wrote in message
news:73f8ftserbo4f09vr...@4ax.com...
> Anyone else think the West is where all the worst racists have gone
> now? They don't have to deal regularly w/ blacks or other minorities
> unlike the South or more urban areas, and I think I remember as a fact
Are you forgetting california?
Arnold Kim
kuniSLAYERshujo <kuni...@kldjlkdjlj.studio-zoe.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.155d7fa2d...@news.austin.outernet.com...
If this guy's a troll, then let me apologize for actually replying to him.
If you're not, which I suspect, you have no clue how wrong that statement
is. Yes, I'll agree that some people occasionally take the sensitivity a
little _too_ far, but the idea that an insult towards another culture A)
might not already imply any kind of prejudice, and B) that making fun of
another culture is a good thing is bullshit.
Or do you think African Americans should simply shrug off blackface because
it was just a joke?
Arnold Kim
kuniSLAYERshujo
> obviously your a white person who never had to deal with this. I was a hispanic
> growing up in Mesquite, Tx. who was constantly called the "N" name because that was
> what they thought that any one that didn`t have white skin was.
.....
Being called the "N" word is a completely different thing than Su's
portrayal in Love Hina. -_-;
That whole "You're white! You're male! You could NEVER understand what
it's like!" diatribe is so overused and blatantly untrue too. Not ALL
prejudice has to do strictly with race, gender, orientation, and the
like. But I shan't get into that; I'd stray too much from the topic of
this newsgroup... ^^;
K.
kuniSLAYERshujo
> >[begin rant]
> >
>
> [snip offensive rant]
>
> *plonk*
Errrrr...
Perhaps telling him his friends have sticks up their butts was a bad
idea!! O_O;
....
Oh well.
K. (honestly... normally I have tact when posting newsgroup messages...
I'm just kind of fed up with this particular topic. Honest! ^_^;)
tim gueguen
"paranormalized" <jfi...@proprietarymail.clarksville.org> wrote in message
news:73f8ftserbo4f09vr...@4ax.com...
>
> Anyone else think the West is where all the worst racists have gone
> now? They don't have to deal regularly w/ blacks or other minorities
> unlike the South or more urban areas, and I think I remember as a fact
> that Boise, Idaho has one of the strongest conclaves of the Klu Klux
> Klan around....
>
has the lowest "non-white" population of any US state. Its also the home of
the Aryan Nations, Richard Butler until recently living at Hayden Lake.(His
compound has been seized as part of a civil lawsuit.)
tim gueguen 101867
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Oh don't worry they're here too.
Later...
Kwesi K.
Robyn, Duke of Amber
Speaking about Marmalade boy... the police, looking for a lost Miki find
another girl.. when the cast rush up to see her they find out that she's
Chinese. I thought this was funny.
the "they all look aliike to me." syndrome.
the funny thing is, she didn't actually look any different.
Neil
On 5 May 2001, Shadow6865 wrote:
> Date: 05 May 2001 12:46:57 GMT
> From: Shadow6865 <shado...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime.misc
> Subject: Re: Racism in Love Hina?
__________________________________________________________________
_____________
Seraphim, the Restless Angel with a (borrowed) sword.
________
Nene, Ami,
Girls with glasses. girls with computers. Pink hair. blue hair
_______________________
Robyn, Duke of Amber. Agent of Chaos.
***************************************************************************
Robyn, Duke of Amber
I was actually asking my roomies girlfriend about black people in
Japan....So I could compare a population in "reality" vrs population in
anime.
What she said would get me stomped If I ever said sometihng like that.
She said.
"Well, you don't really see many black people....except on street corners
at a red light where they try to ask you out on dates."
I post that without comment.
Neil
On Sat, 5 May 2001, S.t.A.n.L.e.E wrote:
> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:50:10 -0400
> From: S.t.A.n.L.e.E <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime.misc
> Subject: Re: Racism in Love Hina?
>
__________________________________________________________________
Robyn, Duke of Amber
No, they should make controversial films like the Spister.
"Bamboozled" anyone?
Neil
On Sat, 5 May 2001, Arnold Kim wrote:
> Or do you think African Americans should simply shrug off blackface because
> it was just a joke?
>
> Arnold Kim
__________________________________________________________________
kuniSLAYERshujo
Sorry I posted that. -_-;
I always get so stubborn in arguments like this, and it always results
in a lot of people getting pissed off, and that just isn't really nice,
so I'm just going to pull out before anything like that happens.
It may be a little cowardly, but it'll result in less people getting
hurt. ^^;
Also, while I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with my
opinions on the subject, I didn't have to be such an asshole about it,
telling Thik his friends friends had sticks up their butts and
everything. Sometimes I wonder why people respond so harshly to my
opinion posts because I'm too stupid to realize _I'm_ the one who
started all the negative vibes with brash insults like that.
I'd apologize to Thik personally, but his email is fake, and he
*plonked* me... ^^;
So again, sorry about that post. Try to beleive I'm not some crazy
racist troll. I'm usually a nice guy. Honest. ^_^;;;
K.
In article <MPG.155d7fa2d...@news.austin.outernet.com>,
kuni...@kldjlkdjlj.studio-zoe.com says...
jet...@illusions.com
> Hi,
> it's always nice to see a dark skin or anime character of color ^__^
> (by the wayt the term negro is offensive; speaking as an
> African-American...don't want to sound PC or anal but it's similar to calling
> an Asian American ---"Oriental" outdated and has negative connotations)
> Anyways, I haven't seen Love Hina yet so I can't comment on it but Nadia
> origins are African; other anime featuring "ethnic" characters include Utena
> (i.e. Anthy; Akio and Mamiya) Sol Bianca (Feb) Gal Force; Battle Althelete
> (Tanya) ...ummh that's all I can think off right now .
This comes up from time to time... someone might want to keep a list.
Anyway, Rally Vincent in Gunsmith Cats, The Grant family from Robotech (Claudia
in Macross, Bowie in Southern Cross, Vince & Jean in Sentinels), the Indian
cyborg from Prefectural Earth Defense Force (Whose tagline is "I hate Japanese
people" in response to their foolishness), Saunders from Gundam MS Team 08,
Kusanagi from Blue Seed.
Next?
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe jet...@illusions.com Website being moved
"Inflammable means flammable?! What a country!"
-Dr. Nick Riviera
Kyle Thomas Pope
>Anyway, Rally Vincent in Gunsmith Cats, The Grant family from Robotech (Claudia
>in Macross, Bowie in Southern Cross, Vince & Jean in Sentinels), the Indian
>cyborg from Prefectural Earth Defense Force (Whose tagline is "I hate Japanese
>people" in response to their foolishness), Saunders from Gundam MS Team 08,
>Kusanagi from Blue Seed.
>
>Next?
Kuramitsu Mihoshi of Tenchi Muyou
Himemiya Anshii from Utena
Lalaa Sun from Gundam
Mora Bashit from Gundam 0083
Mitaka Arisa from Aozora Shoujotai
Ed from Cowboy Bebop
Catherina from Cowboy Bebop
Old Man Bull from Cowboy Bebop
Abdul Hakim from Cowboy Bebop
The Soul Bossa Trio from Cowboy Bebop
Just about everybody in the Mushroom Samba episode of Cowboy Bebop
Punch from Cowboy Bebop
Sidara Dedson from Ao no Roku Go
Nadia from Fushigi no Umi no Nadia
Icorina from Fushigi no Umi no Nadia
Caldina from Magic Knight Rayearth
Poni from Gall Force
Cacao from Lamunes
Urd from Aa, Megami-sama
Sheera Sheera from El Hazard
Kalia from El Hazard 2
Maria from Kaze o Mita Shounen
Miie Miie from Gekiganga III
Caska from Berserk
Aisha Clan Clan from Outlaw Star
Luis from Blood: The Last Vampire
Feb from Sol Bianca
Ross Syllabus from Armitage III
Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered." - No. 6
Bienvenue777
thanks for that list ^__^
we should also include Sohma from RgVeda (hell aren't they all supposed to be
representation of East Indian deities ^^)
Lady Arshes Nei from Bastard
Ja
Mona
Kyle Thomas Pope
wrote:
Mind you that list is nowhere near complete.
Juliet A. Youngren
> Lady Arshes Nei from Bastard
If we're counting dark elves, there are several in Lodoss, starting with
Pirotesse. Gestalt also has a couple.
On the human side, I'd add--
The Police Chief in Bubblegum Crisis (can't remember his name)
Lisa, his niece (ep. 8)
Elam from Arslan
The entire Shindran court from Arslan
Juliet
Rob Kelk
<jayo...@prairienet.org> wrote:
>On 6 May 2001, Bienvenue777 wrote:
>
>> Lady Arshes Nei from Bastard
>
>If we're counting dark elves, there are several in Lodoss, starting with
>Pirotesse. Gestalt also has a couple.
>
>On the human side, I'd add--
>
>The Police Chief in Bubblegum Crisis (can't remember his name)
Chief Todo (pronounced "toh-doh").
>Lisa, his niece (ep. 8)
>
>Elam from Arslan
>
>The entire Shindran court from Arslan
Has anyone mentioned Mihoshi (Tenchi Muyo) yet?
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.tripod.com> rob...@ottawa.com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
Frank White
jet...@illusions.com says...
->
->Bienvenue777 <bienve...@aol.com> wrote:
->> Hi,
->
->> it's always nice to see a dark skin or anime character of color ^__^
->> (by the wayt the term negro is offensive; speaking as an
->> African-American...don't want to sound PC or anal but it's similar to
-calling
->> an Asian American ---"Oriental" outdated and has negative
-connotations)
I recall the story of the American journalist who addressed
Nelson Mandela as an "Africian American", and he got this
quizical expression on his face and declined the honor.
That's the problem with euphanisms. They get so divorced
from reality they stop making sense.
->> Anyways, I haven't seen Love Hina yet so I can't comment on it but
-Nadia
->> origins are African; other anime featuring "ethnic" characters
-include Utena
->> (i.e. Anthy; Akio and Mamiya) Sol Bianca (Feb) Gal Force; Battle
-Althelete
->> (Tanya) ...ummh that's all I can think off right now .
->
->This comes up from time to time... someone might want to keep a list.
->
->Anyway, Rally Vincent in Gunsmith Cats, The Grant family from Robotech
-(Claudia
->in Macross, Bowie in Southern Cross, Vince & Jean in Sentinels), the
-Indian
->cyborg from Prefectural Earth Defense Force (Whose tagline is "I hate
-Japanese
->people" in response to their foolishness), Saunders from Gundam MS Team
-08,
->Kusanagi from Blue Seed.
->
->Next?
There should be two lists here. One of humans who are
darked skinned, like Rally Vincent, and the other of
aliens or other beings (Mihoshi from Tenchi Muyo,
R. Dorothy Wainwright from Big O) whose skin color
may not be the result of genes at all.
FW
Scott Fujimoto
IS supposed to come from India.
--Scott
"To sacrifice oneself in war is an act of courage." --Admiral Dessler
"Yes, but to sacrifice no-one is an act of genius." --Dr. Kitaguchi
Led Mirage
<acf...@yahoo.do_not_spam_me.com> wrote:
>ACtually, I only saw the japanese version, and I don't understand japanese.
>What was that guy saying in the ending blurbs? And if the guy saying it is
>actually Indian, well then...
Ending blurbs? I don't think I've paid attention to those. However,
whithin the show, the Indian alien was such stereotypical of Indians.
The music, the curry, the clothing, even the accent. It's so
gratuitous, even though it's funny as hell. It's very rare that they
do foreign accents in anime. Usually, they dub normally.
alan
indian guy is actually indian.
Oh yeah, and don't forget-he runs a convenience store 7AM 11PM, or something
like that.
"Led Mirage" <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3b024a2a...@news.netvigator.com...
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> If you saw the "ending blurbs", you will see that the voice actor for the
> indian guy is actually indian.
> Oh yeah, and don't forget-he runs a convenience store 7AM 11PM, or something
> like that.
>
Heh, The Simpsons has the most blatant stereotype of that.
But then, The Simpsons is clearly a parody of everyone. ^_^
Douglas Orlowski
wrote:
>->Bienvenue777 <bienve...@aol.com> wrote:
>->> Hi,
>->
>->> it's always nice to see a dark skin or anime character of color ^__^
>->> (by the wayt the term negro is offensive; speaking as an
>->> African-American...don't want to sound PC or anal but it's similar to
>-calling
>->> an Asian American ---"Oriental" outdated and has negative
>-connotations)
>
So, then what about us "people of colour" who are not Americans? I
REALLY detest the names that some people want to be identified with
(African American being one of them...your ties to Africa are tenuous
at best) so as to pigeonhole themselves into one group or another. Is
it that meaningful to you? I like to fancy myself as a person of the
Earth, though for legal reasons, I am a Canadian....and no ties to
Africa are wanted. My ties to Europe (through my father who was
German) would be stronger than my ties to Africa (through my mother)
though she too was born in Canada. This reminds me of a funny true
story. Some years ago, I was in Nairobi Kenya on a trip. I got asked a
lot about which tribe I was from. No answer for that but now I think
about it, I should have answered "from the tribe of Man."
Doug "so little time" Orlowski
Touga no Miko
>On 6 May 2001 20:44:25 GMT, fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)
>wrote:
>
>
>>->Bienvenue777 <bienve...@aol.com> wrote:
>>->> Hi,
>>->
>>->> it's always nice to see a dark skin or anime character of color ^__^
>>->> (by the wayt the term negro is offensive; speaking as an
>>->> African-American...don't want to sound PC or anal but it's similar to
>>-calling
>>->> an Asian American ---"Oriental" outdated and has negative
>>-connotations)
>>
>
>So, then what about us "people of colour" who are not Americans?
African-Canadian
African- French
African- English
African- Italian
African- Haitian
African- African..
Ok I'm just bored now.
~TnM
---
Site: http://redrival.com/tnm
Blog: http://saturnine.blogspot.com
SP FAQ: http://www.spfc.org/band/faq.html
"Scouring the countryside...Just to find the enemy inside of you...."
sanjian
news:n5kdft03pfpgi5n52...@4ax.com...
Or, as Ken Hamblin puts it, "African-American... pick one."
--
sanjian@wido(you know the drill)maker.com
http://www.widomaker.com/~sanjian
President P.A.C. Order of the Mallet
----------------------------------------------------------
Smile -- Ruka
Rythem -- Corvette
Dignaty -- Extra
Guts -- Layla
Tomadachi -- Parapu
Kokoro -- Shion
Believe in yourself -- Yuri
Shez
>Douglas Orlowski:
>>->> an Asian American ---"Oriental" outdated and has negative
>>-connotations)
>>So, then what about us "people of colour" who are not Americans?
>
>African-Canadian
>African- French
>African- English
Actually the term "Black British" is what is usually used here in the
UK.
Also "Oriental" doesn't have negative connotations here AFAIK: the term
"Asian" is normally only used to refer to people from the Indian
subcontinent (which is illogical perhaps, but that's how it's used).
-Shez.
--
______________________________________________________
Constipation is the thief of time.
______________________________________________________
Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Douglas Orlowski wrote:
> So, then what about us "people of colour" who are not Americans? I
> REALLY detest the names that some people want to be identified with
> (African American being one of them...your ties to Africa are tenuous
> at best)
Read a book. Most of us here in the US today have ties that were
established through the slave trade.
> so as to pigeonhole themselves into one group or another. Is
> it that meaningful to you?
Actually QUITE meaningful. Granted I'm cool with the were apart of the
family of humanity mode of thought but at the same time the most
important reason why we would still associate ourselves with Africa is
because it's the truth. That and the systematic attempt to degrade that
bond over the history of out time here.
> I like to fancy myself as a person of the
> Earth, though for legal reasons, I am a Canadian....and no ties to
> Africa are wanted.
You have my sympathy.
> My ties to Europe (through my father who was
> German) would be stronger than my ties to Africa (through my mother)
You mother has my sympathy as well.
> though she too was born in Canada. This reminds me of a funny true
> story. Some years ago, I was in Nairobi Kenya on a trip. I got asked a
> lot about which tribe I was from. No answer for that but now I think
> about it, I should have answered "from the tribe of Man."
Now this is the saddest part. You shun the African side of your
ancestry but go TO Africa, are embraced BY Africans, and in as many
words, CALLED African by them and you still don't get it.
Once again....my sympathies....
Later....
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Ken Arromdee wrote:
>
> In article <3AF761CE...@pacbell.net>,
> Kwesi Ako Kennedy <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >> This reminds me of a funny true
> >> story. Some years ago, I was in Nairobi Kenya on a trip. I got asked a
> >> lot about which tribe I was from. No answer for that but now I think
> >> about it, I should have answered "from the tribe of Man."
> >Now this is the saddest part. You shun the African side of your
> >ancestry but go TO Africa, are embraced BY Africans, and in as many
> >words, CALLED African by them and you still don't get it.
>
> I'm sure that if I went to Ireland I would be asked if I was Catholic or
> Protestant. That doesn't mean I'm a Christian who's denying his heritage.
That's faith not genetics.
There are no weekly meetings for being what you are.
Later....
Kwesi K.
Led Mirage
<sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>
>Heh, The Simpsons has the most blatant stereotype of that.
>But then, The Simpsons is clearly a parody of everyone. ^_^
Abu, of course. The alien Indian in NieA_7 is about the smae thing,
except that he has a huge head. But then, I doubt many Indian would
genuinely laugh at Abu or the alien Indian. If Abu wa black and
carries a watermelon with him everywhere, it'd cause quite a
sensation.
Led Mirage
<acf...@yahoo.do_not_spam_me.com> wrote:
>If you saw the "ending blurbs", you will see that the voice actor for the
>indian guy is actually indian.
>Oh yeah, and don't forget-he runs a convenience store 7AM 11PM, or something
>like that.
Ahhh, ok. I was wondering about the only VA whose name isn't Japanese
sounding. I guess that's why his accent sound so "authentic".
Scott Schimmel
>On Mon, 7 May 2001 10:40:23 -0400, "S.t.A.n.L.e.E"
><sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote:
>>Heh, The Simpsons has the most blatant stereotype of that.
>>But then, The Simpsons is clearly a parody of everyone. ^_^
>
>Abu, of course. The alien Indian in NieA_7 is about the smae thing,
>except that he has a huge head. But then, I doubt many Indian would
>genuinely laugh at Abu or the alien Indian.
My Indian college roommate thought Apu was hilarious. Said it was a
stereotype exaggerated to the point of subversion. But he did have
an unusually well-developed sense of humor... most people just can't
laugh at themselves, sadly.
(For my part, I thought their German stereotypes were equally
hilarious... though of course in PC terms, that doesn't count.)
Scott Schimmel http://schimmel.sandwich.net
* Ex ignorantia ad sapientium; ex luce ad tenebras. *
"You really aren't normal, are you?" - Miki Koishikawa
Scott Schimmel
But wasn't Douglas saying (in a sort of roundabout manner, true)
that he -isn't- African?
Ancestry may be genetic, but it doesn't create a connection.
Ancestry isn't enough to make you part of a culture or society.
(Heck, sometimes -living- there isn't enough to make you part of a
culture or society...) If he feels he didn't fit in, or that the
description doesn't fit him... well, he should know, right?
Bienvenue777
well, it's hard to escape labels especially if you live in the U.S. where every
freaking application wants to put you in a box (i.e. asian; african american,
pacific islander, mexican; puertorican; hispanic of non-caucasian origin;
hispanic of non-african origin etc @__@)
I was objecting to the label "Negroe" since it has so many negative
connotations (too "Jim Crow" for me ^^:;) Anyways, more power to you and to
each his own.
Ja
Mona
Kyle Thomas Pope
Schimmel) wrote:
>Ancestry may be genetic, but it doesn't create a connection.
>Ancestry isn't enough to make you part of a culture or society.
>(Heck, sometimes -living- there isn't enough to make you part of a
>culture or society...) If he feels he didn't fit in, or that the
>description doesn't fit him... well, he should know, right?
The really interesting arrogance about the term "African-American" is
the implication it carries that Africa has a uniform culture
throughout. Africa is a large and diverse continent containing
distinctly different countries, cultures and ethnic groups. Real
Africans do not identify themselves as "African" anymore than we
identify ourselves as "North Americans". Native Americans identify
themselves by tribe or nation. Asians identify themselves by country
or region of origin as do Europeans. The term "African-American"
indicates a basic ignorance about Africa as a continent as well as the
strange idea that anyone with dark skin couldn't have come from
anywhere else.
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>Douglas Orlowski:
<snip>
>>So, then what about us "people of colour" who are not Americans?
>
>African-Canadian
That's one way to spot someone who isn't Canadian - he'll use terms like
"African-Canadian"...
<rest of list snipped>
Bienvenue777
geez I didn't mean to stir up anything by identifying myself as "African
American"
but as my friend so bluntly put it during a cultural diversity moment in my
medical humanities's class..."you can call yourself whatever you want but what
people see is another black person"
(quote from my pal Roshawnda)
Ja
Mona
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Scott Schimmel wrote:
> But wasn't Douglas saying (in a sort of roundabout manner, true)
> that he -isn't- African?
I'm not disagreeing with this.
Of his own personal views, what I disagree with is that he as absolutely
no connection to Africa. Of course he's Canadian. Don't be ridiculous.
But to patently deny that he comes from African ancestry when even
people from Africa would inquire so upon looking at him is flat out denial.
> Ancestry may be genetic, but it doesn't create a connection.
> Ancestry isn't enough to make you part of a culture or society.
> (Heck, sometimes -living- there isn't enough to make you part of a
> culture or society...) If he feels he didn't fit in, or that the
> description doesn't fit him... well, he should know, right?
He does not have to accept the culture to admit it. It's plainly
written all over his face. When people in Africa ask you what tribe you
are from it is simply a way to gauge where your family originates.
Something akin to asking what neighborhood you are from.
I also agree that ancestry is not an automatic connection to a culture
but at the same time it can be the step to creating closer bonds with
people who may share a similar history. What he had was a wonderful
opportunity to connect and share with someone who was probably willing
to do the same.
If this was not his intent, I was strongly mistaken.
Later....
Kwesi K.
sanjian
news:20010508160001...@ng-mq1.aol.com...
Sadly, that term is actually the most accurate, since it is based off the
general body type (negroid). Of course, the negative connotation that
surrounds it pretty much makes it off limits.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kyle Thomas Pope wrote:
> The really interesting arrogance about the term "African-American" is
> the implication it carries that Africa has a uniform culture
> throughout.
Wrong.
This is the second part of what I had a problem with in the original post.
African Americans are well aware of the many different cultures within
the continent. Most would LOVE to reconnect with their ancestral people
from whatever nation or culture that gave birth to them. Unfortunately
this is not possible due to the damage caused by the slave trade that
brought them here.
Tell me, how is it arrogant to simply recognize one's origins regardless
of this gap in the collective history of former slaves? Should we have
just let it go? The need to connect with one's past is, for any group
of people, is a very real and powerful thing. In light of this gap we
simply accept ourselves as descendants of Africans.
How arrogant is the term Italian American? Irish American? Japanese American?
> A Real Africans do not identify themselves as "African" anymore than we
> identify ourselves as "North Americans".
My stepfather, a lawyer from Ghana, would loudly scoff at that
declaration. Not to mention the many, many friends that visitors of his
during the holidays that loudly proclaim me an African as well. Not
because of the legal marriage but because of a need in them to reconnect
with those that they feel were taken away from them.
This is all in spirit, of course.
Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
African. You of people who came from Africa".
Need more? During my mother's trip to Africa in which she toured five
countries, she was able come into contact with people there that were
interested in stating programs that opened exchanges between African and
African American teens. The purpose of such programs would be to widen
the cultural view of both groups of kids and hopefully show how the two
are similar and related as well.
While the differences between the nations that make up the continent are
great most do proudly consider themselves African. Once again, while
individuals and cultures may vary, the shared history of colonization
and slavery are a unifying force for them as well.
This is where Africans and African Americans meet.
>Native Americans identify
> themselves by tribe or nation. Asians identify themselves by country
> or region of origin as do Europeans.
As well as with the term Asian American. How arrogant!
> The term "African-American" indicates a basic ignorance about Africa as a continent as well as the
> strange idea that anyone with dark skin couldn't have come from anywhere else.
As for anyone with dark skin coming from any where else, that was never
in question, nor is it in denial.
Were talking about Africans and their connection with African Americans.
Your assumptions about the meanings behind the terms are the only
ignorance I can see here.
Late.....
Kwesi K.
(this was brought to you by the red the black and the green......you sissieeeeeeee......)
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kwesi Ako Kennedy wrote:
> Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
> one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
> I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
> name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
> reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
> African. You of people who came from Africa".
BTW, this man was, of course, an African from Ghana.
Late....
Kwesi K.
Klyfix
(Scott Schimmel) writes:
>
>But wasn't Douglas saying (in a sort of roundabout manner, true)
>that he -isn't- African?
>
>Ancestry may be genetic, but it doesn't create a connection.
>Ancestry isn't enough to make you part of a culture or society.
>(Heck, sometimes -living- there isn't enough to make you part of a
>culture or society...) If he feels he didn't fit in, or that the
>description doesn't fit him... well, he should know, right?
>
To be silly....
Ain't we _all_ African, if we care to go back far enough?
The fun thing about the Present is that we can in a sense Create Our
Own Identity; while one shouldn't deny one's heritage completely, we
are what we chose and/or are able to become; we can decide for
ourselves our philosophy, faith, obsessive hobbies, and so on.
The not-so-fun aspect is the rather odd notion some have that folk must
embrace one portion of their ancestory above all others or somehow be
a traitor; I fail to understand the desirablity of requiring the same sort of
rule as the assorted racists of the past.
(Klyfix hastens to note that he's a mix of assorted Northern European types,
but American SF fan in culture.)
V. S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...
Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html
RPG and SF, predictions, philosophy, and other things.
"It's not like Sioux Falls"-A guy on the Boston subway.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Klyfix wrote:
> The not-so-fun aspect is the rather odd notion some have that folk must
> embrace one portion of their ancestory above all others or somehow be
> a traitor; I fail to understand the desirablity of requiring the same sort of
> rule as the assorted racists of the past.
I may be misunderstanding here but this is NOT what I'm advocating.
It's actually what I'm arguing against.
Later...
Kwesi K.
Kyle Thomas Pope
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>African Americans are well aware of the many different cultures within
>the continent.
Wrong. "African-Americans" are much like the rest of Americans in the
respect that they are woefully ignorant of anything lying outside of
the borders of the United States. Trying to keep up with the social
and political changes taking place on the African continent is a full
time job for the government which has to deal with the place. Even
they don't get it right most of the time. How is the average American
on the street supposed to know what the given situation is over there
at any given moment? When a supposed "African-American" tells me that
an Egyptian couldn't be African because his skin is too light then I
know the last time this idiot even looked at a map of Africa.
>Tell me, how is it arrogant to simply recognize one's origins regardless
>of this gap in the collective history of former slaves? Should we have
>just let it go? The need to connect with one's past is, for any group
>of people, is a very real and powerful thing. In light of this gap we
>simply accept ourselves as descendants of Africans.
Too large a cultural cross section to be meaningful. The only common
element that ties that many cultures and peoples together is the
quantity of melanin in their skin. And even that varies by region.
Africans include cultures as diverse as the Egyptians, the Zulu
Empire, the Bushmen of the Kalihari, the Ethiopians, and on and on and
on. There is no tying all of these disparate cultures together under
the umbrella of "Africa". You may as well say you're a
"Terran-American". "African-American" as a designation is just
laziness. Finding one's cultural roots takes work. The first step
being to crack open a book and learning something about Africa and the
peoples who live there.
>How arrogant is the term Italian American? Irish American? Japanese American?
They're not equivalent to "African-American" because those terms refer
to specific national or cultural groups. The equivalent to
"African-American" would be "European-American". Nobody uses that
term to identify themselves unless they can't pinpoint the country of
their origin.
>My stepfather, a lawyer from Ghana, would loudly scoff at that
>declaration. Not to mention the many, many friends that visitors of his
>during the holidays that loudly proclaim me an African as well. Not
>because of the legal marriage but because of a need in them to reconnect
>with those that they feel were taken away from them.
Your stepfather is unique then. The actual Africans I have
encountered (admittedly not that many) have always identified
themselves by country, not continent. Pretty much everybody I've ever
encountered who wasn't from the US indentified themselves by the
country they were from.
>Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
>one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
>I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
>name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
>reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
>African. You of people who came from Africa".
My name came from Scotland but I am not a Scot. Were I in Scotland I
would stick out like a sore thumb as I am partially black myself. The
man at the counter was being insultingly presumptive. Virtually
everybody in America has a name that came from somewhere else barring
those who are members of Native American nations.
>Need more? During my mother's trip to Africa in which she toured five
>countries, she was able come into contact with people there that were
>interested in stating programs that opened exchanges between African and
>African American teens. The purpose of such programs would be to widen
>the cultural view of both groups of kids and hopefully show how the two
>are similar and related as well.
I expect a teen native to Cairo, Egypt has a life vastly different
from a teen in sub-Saharan Africa. What single set of experiences can
be said to be common to all the inhabitants of the African continent?
>While the differences between the nations that make up the continent are
>great most do proudly consider themselves African.
I expect the Hutu and the Tutsies (sp?) are not likely to adopt a
title that lumps the both of them together since these two groups seem
bound and determined to exterminate each other.
>Once again, while
>individuals and cultures may vary, the shared history of colonization
>and slavery are a unifying force for them as well.
Does that include the African cultures who were slavers themselves?
Remember that the majority of African slaves were not captured but
bought from other Africans.
>As well as with the term Asian American. How arrogant!
Actually most Asian-Americans of my acquaintence are quite proud of
their specific cultures, be they Chinese, Japanese, Korean,
Vietnamese, etc. "Asian-American" is usually the term used for them
by others and on forms. Even then a sub-category called Pacific
Islanders has recently been created. Like Africa, the cultures of
Asia are too varied and different to be lumped together.
>Your assumptions about the meanings behind the terms are the only
>ignorance I can see here.
I didn't realize the idea that Africa is a continent of differing
cultures, countries and peoples constituted and assumption.
Kyle Thomas Pope
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
> one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
> I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
> name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
> reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
> African. You of people who came from Africa".
Interestingly enough it was that very same attitude that got the
Japanese-American population interned in concentration camps during
WWII. If I declare myself to be an American you damn well better
respect that regardless of where you think my name came from.
Klyfix
<kwes...@pacbell.net> writes:
More of a broad comment on society; there's folk demanding that someone
who has any black ancestory at all consider themselves black rather than
multiethnic, which is roughly what some old laws under segregation required.
Apologies for my clumsy and probably unnecessary commentary.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kyle Thomas Pope wrote:
>
> On Tue, 08 May 2001 19:55:54 -0700, Kwesi Ako Kennedy
> <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >African Americans are well aware of the many different cultures within
> >the continent.
>
> Wrong. "African-Americans" are much like the rest of Americans in the
> respect that they are woefully ignorant of anything lying outside of
> the borders of the United States.
Kyle, are you even READING what I've written?
All you've done here is make a sweeping and ignorant generalization of
Americans. Please try not to resort to such lazy assumptions. You
make it seem as if one wrong person is the qualifier for a whole group
of people.
> >Tell me, how is it arrogant to simply recognize one's origins regardless
> >of this gap in the collective history of former slaves? Should we have
> >just let it go? The need to connect with one's past is, for any group
> >of people, is a very real and powerful thing. In light of this gap we
> >simply accept ourselves as descendants of Africans.
>
> Too large a cultural cross section to be meaningful.
How so? Remember, we, as African Americans have very little knowledge
of our original cultures. Hence, here in America, were identify
ourselves as such.
>The only common element that ties that many cultures and peoples
together is the
> quantity of melanin in their skin.
That and the collective experiences of the people across the continent.
I never denied that different nations and cultures exist. What I am
advocating is that there are other historical events that connect these
cultures as well.
> "African-American" as a designation is just
> laziness. Finding one's cultural roots takes work. The first step
> being to crack open a book and learning something about Africa and the
> peoples who live there.
And who say's this is not taking place as well?
Just this morning there was a report on CBS about how newly discovered
records of slaves were transferred to CD-ROM and how the research of
individual African American personal histories would be made much
easier. They even got a commentary from Alex Haley's son on how this
set of disks will help speed up the process tracing one's roots.
This isn't happening because African Americans are lazy and just waiting
for the information to drop out of the sky. Many of them are out there
keeping track of and researching their origins as far back as they
possibly can. My birth father is among them. So far he's gotten our
family traced to Jamaica.
> >How arrogant is the term Italian American? Irish American? Japanese American?
>
> They're not equivalent to "African-American" because those terms refer
> to specific national or cultural groups. The equivalent to
> "African-American" would be "European-American". Nobody uses that
> term to identify themselves unless they can't pinpoint the country of
> their origin.
Well of course not. Most European Americans are fully aware of their
ancestral origins. Remember the historical gap I mentioned earlier?
Read my friend, READ.....
> >My stepfather, a lawyer from Ghana, would loudly scoff at that
> >declaration. Not to mention the many, many friends that visitors of his
> >during the holidays that loudly proclaim me an African as well. Not
> >because of the legal marriage but because of a need in them to reconnect
> >with those that they feel were taken away from them.
>
> Your stepfather is unique then. The actual Africans I have
> encountered (admittedly not that many) have always identified
> themselves by country, not continent. Pretty much everybody I've ever
> encountered who wasn't from the US indentified themselves by the
> country they were from.
You need to meet more Africans then. But aside from that, you make it
seem that identity with their county of origin is something wholly
separate from being an African. I'm simply stating that it is something
that goes hand in hand. Neither diminishes the other.
> >Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
> >one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
> >I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
> >name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
> >reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
> >African. You of people who came from Africa".
>
> My name came from Scotland but I am not a Scot. Were I in Scotland I
> would stick out like a sore thumb as I am partially black myself.
And you have a problem with African Americans because......
Please, lay down one the couch and start from the beginning.
> The man at the counter was being insultingly presumptive. Virtually
> everybody in America has a name that came from somewhere else barring
> those who are members of Native American nations.
See, that's where we differ then.
I was trying not to insult him by assuming I could lump myself with his
culture. He, upon realizing that I was unsure of how to respond was
happy to let me know he welcomed me as an African. I resembled people
he knew from Ghana and I had a name that was from Ghana,
This is hardly what I would call insulting. Presumptive, yes, but for
me to take it as an insult would require that I have a COLOSSAL stick
up my ass.
As for you're statement on Native Americans, THAT's insultingly
presumptive. That "woefully ignorant American" is showing in you again.....
> >Need more? During my mother's trip to Africa in which she toured five
> >countries, she was able come into contact with people there that were
> >interested in stating programs that opened exchanges between African and
> >African American teens. The purpose of such programs would be to widen
> >the cultural view of both groups of kids and hopefully show how the two
> >are similar and related as well.
>
> I expect a teen native to Cairo, Egypt has a life vastly different
> from a teen in sub-Saharan Africa. What single set of experiences can
> be said to be common to all the inhabitants of the African continent?
Ummm.... re-read that. I was referring to an exchange between USA and
African countries.
> >While the differences between the nations that make up the continent are
> >great most do proudly consider themselves African.
>
> I expect the Hutu and the Tutsies (sp?) are not likely to adopt a
> title that lumps the both of them together since these two groups seem
> bound and determined to exterminate each other.
No more so than the Kurds and the Slavs. Nor the Israel's and
Palestinians. Or the North and South Vietna-oh, wait never mind about that.
But they are Africans. Right? You used the term yourself above.
> >Once again, while
> >individuals and cultures may vary, the shared history of colonization
> >and slavery are a unifying force for them as well.
>
> Does that include the African cultures who were slavers themselves?
> Remember that the majority of African slaves were not captured but
> bought from other Africans.
Yep. THAT would be apart of the history. While regrettable, to deny it
would be foolish.
The indentured servants of the original 13 colonies have also found a
place in the personal histories of original American families.
Why do you seem to keep trying to bait me?
> >As well as with the term Asian American. How arrogant!
>
> Actually most Asian-Americans of my acquaintence are quite proud of
> their specific cultures, be they Chinese, Japanese, Korean,
> Vietnamese, etc. "Asian-American" is usually the term used for them
> by others and on forms. Even then a sub-category called Pacific
> Islanders has recently been created. Like Africa, the cultures of
> Asia are too varied and different to be lumped together.
But as you yourself state, they are the cultures of Asia. Nothing lost,
nothing gained.
> >Your assumptions about the meanings behind the terms are the only
> >ignorance I can see here.
>
> I didn't realize the idea that Africa is a continent of differing
> cultures, countries and peoples constituted and assumption.
No it doesn't but when you state that African Americans are arrogant,
lazy and ignorant to embrace that association due only to the fact that
they have little to no means to make the connections to their original
cultures, it smack of nothing but PURE ignorance.
Later....
Kwesi K.
(we didn't land on Plymouth Rock......)
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kyle Thomas Pope wrote:
>
> On Tue, 08 May 2001 20:14:00 -0700, Kwesi Ako Kennedy
> <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
> > one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
> > I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
> > name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
> > reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
> > African. You of people who came from Africa".
>
> Interestingly enough it was that very same attitude that got the
> Japanese-American population interned in concentration camps during
> WWII. If I declare myself to be an American you damn well better
> respect that regardless of where you think my name came from.
My how cowardly....
In this example, are you actually BLAMING Japanese Americans for getting
placed in concentration camps during the war?
How low will he go next folks?
Later....
(.....Plymouth Rock landed on us....)
Douglas Orlowski
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>Douglas Orlowski wrote:
>
>Now this is the saddest part. You shun the African side of your
>ancestry but go TO Africa, are embraced BY Africans, and in as many
>words, CALLED African by them and you still don't get it.
>
>Once again....my sympathies....
>
>Later....
>Kwesi Ako Kennedy
I won the trip (I used to enter a LOT of contests). I don't think I'll
be back anytime soon unless I win another. My priorities are much
different than they were 20+ years ago. Africa holds little (if any)
interest to me. If it does to you, so be it. Your sympathies are
unwarranted since you know nothing about me anyway...
Doug "look, the name is Polish" Orlowski
Kyle Thomas Pope
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>In this example, are you actually BLAMING Japanese Americans for getting
>placed in concentration camps during the war?
Oh please... Read a book.
The attitude that by simply knowing a person's name and their face
you can make presumptions about their identity and affiliations is the
attitude that pervaded America at the time and resulted in the
issuance of Executive Order 9066 that sent Americans of Japanese
descent into internal exile. Your Ghanan friend made the same
assumptions about you that stripped these people of their freedom.
Kyle Thomas Pope
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>All you've done here is make a sweeping and ignorant generalization of
>Americans. Please try not to resort to such lazy assumptions. You
>make it seem as if one wrong person is the qualifier for a whole group
>of people.
Hardly sweeping or ignorant. This aspect of American education and
culture has been of major concern to the educational agencies of the
government warranting the publication of a rather famous study on the
problem titled "A Nation at Risk"
(http://www.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html). Subsequent
revisitations of the problem only serve to highlight the progress we
haven't made (http://edreform.com/pubs/then&now.htm) in general and in
geography in particular
(http://www.ed.gov/databases/ERIC_Digests/ed264164.html).
>How so? Remember, we, as African Americans have very little knowledge
>of our original cultures. Hence, here in America, were identify
>ourselves as such.
The knowledge is not irretrievable. Geneological resources abound:
http://user.icx.net/~booboo/africa.html
http://www.cyndislist.com/african.htm
http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/url/colls/africanamer/#hist
http://afamgenealogy.ourfamily.com/
Needless to say any decent search engine will guide you to a wealth of
resources. The slave trade was a well documented part of the early
American economy so information isn't as obscure as you might think.
There was no organized effort to destroy the data when slavery was
abolished. Alex Haley managed to do it and he didn't have a fraction
of the research power available from an Internet connection.
>That and the collective experiences of the people across the continent.
>I never denied that different nations and cultures exist. What I am
>advocating is that there are other historical events that connect these
>cultures as well.
I suggest that the experiences of Africans on the African continent
are no more collective than the experiences of Europeans or Asians.
Africans are individuals and as people and societies they each have
very different takes on any given event.
>And who say's this is not taking place as well?
>
>Just this morning there was a report on CBS about how newly discovered
>records of slaves were transferred to CD-ROM and how the research of
>individual African American personal histories would be made much
>easier. They even got a commentary from Alex Haley's son on how this
>set of disks will help speed up the process tracing one's roots.
If that is indeed the case the term "African-American" will disappear
as blacks narrow their ancestry down to specific tribes, nations or
regions.
>Well of course not. Most European Americans are fully aware of their
>ancestral origins. Remember the historical gap I mentioned earlier?
>Read my friend, READ.....
Believe me I do. My ancestry is Carribean, not African. The
historical gap is not as vast and insurmountable as you might suggest.
>You need to meet more Africans then. But aside from that, you make it
>seem that identity with their county of origin is something wholly
>separate from being an African. I'm simply stating that it is something
>that goes hand in hand. Neither diminishes the other.
Then this is a view unique to Africans then. The multiple cultures of
other continents are sufficiently dissimilar for their members to
identify themselves by increasingly smaller ethnic units.
Particularly in Europe after the former Soviet Union lost its grip on
all of its satellite nations. And given the aftermath of the Second
World War there are many Asians who are uncomfortable being lumped
together with the Japanese given some of the atrocities perpetrated on
them by that country.
>> My name came from Scotland but I am not a Scot. Were I in Scotland I
>> would stick out like a sore thumb as I am partially black myself.
>
>And you have a problem with African Americans because......
>Please, lay down one the couch and start from the beginning.
It simply means my name is not an accurate indicator of my ancestry.
My mother picked it because she heard it in a movie and liked it.
>As for you're statement on Native Americans, THAT's insultingly
>presumptive. That "woefully ignorant American" is showing in you again.....
Are you saying that Native Americans don't identify themselves by
nation? That they do lump themselves together in a single collective?
>Ummm.... re-read that. I was referring to an exchange between USA and
>African countries.
Which countries? Which region? Northern Africa or Sub-Saharan? East
coast or west? Does South Africa count? Does a white native of
Johannesburg constitute the African experience?
>No more so than the Kurds and the Slavs. Nor the Israel's and
>Palestinians. Or the North and South Vietna-oh, wait never mind about that.
>
>But they are Africans. Right? You used the term yourself above.
I called them such for convenience. The question is what would they
call themselves.
>But as you yourself state, they are the cultures of Asia. Nothing lost,
>nothing gained.
And Asians in America tend to be aware of which specific culture
they're descended from.
>No it doesn't but when you state that African Americans are arrogant,
>lazy and ignorant to embrace that association due only to the fact that
>they have little to no means to make the connections to their original
>cultures, it smack of nothing but PURE ignorance.
I stated no such thing. That is your inferrence.
Later....
Kwesi K.
(we didn't land on Plymouth Rock......)
Interestingly enough Malcolm X took the "X" as a last name to
designate the specific, if unknown, culture in Africa from which his
ancestry traces (speculated to be the Bambara people of Mali, West
Africa (http://www.brothermalcolm.net/ajar.html)).
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kyle Thomas Pope wrote:
>
> On Tue, 08 May 2001 23:05:03 -0700, Kwesi Ako Kennedy
> <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >All you've done here is make a sweeping and ignorant generalization of
> >Americans. Please try not to resort to such lazy assumptions. You
> >make it seem as if one wrong person is the qualifier for a whole group
> >of people.
>
> Hardly sweeping or ignorant. This aspect of American education and
> culture has been of major concern to the educational agencies of the
> government warranting the publication of a rather famous study on the
> problem titled "A Nation at Risk"
> (http://www.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html). Subsequent
> revisitations of the problem only serve to highlight the progress we
> haven't made (http://edreform.com/pubs/then&now.htm) in general and in
> geography in particular
> (http://www.ed.gov/databases/ERIC_Digests/ed264164.html).
Thanks. These sources, while having nothing to do with what we're
discussing, go to support how the lost history is neither supported or
preserved within the educational system even today. Although it does
nothing to explain how you think it means American are "woefully
ignorant of anything that goes on outside of it's borders". These are
simply sources that seem to chart the degradation of the American
educational system.
If you think everyone simply goes to school and then just puts that
information to use you are sadly mistaken.
> >How so? Remember, we, as African Americans have very little knowledge
> >of our original cultures. Hence, here in America, were identify
> >ourselves as such.
>
> The knowledge is not irretrievable. Geneological resources abound:
>
> http://user.icx.net/~booboo/africa.html
>
> http://www.afrigeneas.com/
>
> http://www.cyndislist.com/african.htm
>
> http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/url/colls/africanamer/#hist
>
> http://afamgenealogy.ourfamily.com/
>
> Needless to say any decent search engine will guide you to a wealth of
> resources. The slave trade was a well documented part of the early
> American economy so information isn't as obscure as you might think.
> There was no organized effort to destroy the data when slavery was
> abolished. Alex Haley managed to do it and he didn't have a fraction
> of the research power available from an Internet connection.
I thank you again. These sources go to discredit this statement you
made earlier that "African American" is simply a designation of laziness
and that the first step was to crack open a book and learn something.
These sites, along with the CD-ROMS I mentioned earlier, go to prove
that African Americans are doing just that.
While the information is not irretrievable, there are still many people
who will never be able to make the ancestral connections because of
either time, money, or the information has been lost somewhere along the
line of notes, registries, and manifolds. Even Haley's son commented on
how the discovery and modernizing of the information helps to reduce
time in doing the research needed. Time that many people, who live day
to day, do not have to spare.
> >That and the collective experiences of the people across the continent.
> >I never denied that different nations and cultures exist. What I am
> >advocating is that there are other historical events that connect these
> >cultures as well.
>
> I suggest that the experiences of Africans on the African continent
> are no more collective than the experiences of Europeans or Asians.
> Africans are individuals and as people and societies they each have
> very different takes on any given event.
No one is denying the individuality of African people and societies.
But there is a movement within Africa that is designed to unite the
nations. Not as one giant governing body but as a coalition of
cooperative nations that works for the good of all. Try sticking Pan
Africanism into your search engine and see what you get.
Oh and the collective history of Africa that I speak of involves the
damage rendered by colonialism, economic dependence on out side sources,
and internal squabbles as well. All African nations have been affected
these issues.
> >And who say's this is not taking place as well?
> >
> >Just this morning there was a report on CBS about how newly discovered
> >records of slaves were transferred to CD-ROM and how the research of
> >individual African American personal histories would be made much
> >easier. They even got a commentary from Alex Haley's son on how this
> >set of disks will help speed up the process tracing one's roots.
>
> If that is indeed the case the term "African-American" will disappear
> as blacks narrow their ancestry down to specific tribes, nations or
> regions.
Not quite. See, within the time it take to recover whatever lost
history, a new history has taken place. This is the charting of peoples
and events that have made their home here through the slave trade. The
history of African Americans. Granted, those that are able to chart
their ancestry back to it's origin may very well take on the name of
that source. But those that are not able to make the connection or are
simply content being American but recognize their origin as a part of
American History (the slave trade) may simply be happy referring to
themselves as African American.
> >Well of course not. Most European Americans are fully aware of their
> >ancestral origins. Remember the historical gap I mentioned earlier?
> >Read my friend, READ.....
>
> Believe me I do. My ancestry is Carribean, not African. The
> historical gap is not as vast and insurmountable as you might suggest.
Actually if your ancestry is Caribbean, it has ties that lead directly
to Africa due to the fact that those islands were used as slave trade
centers of export. Next plug Haile Selassie into your search engine and
see what you get.
> >You need to meet more Africans then. But aside from that, you make it
> >seem that identity with their county of origin is something wholly
> >separate from being an African. I'm simply stating that it is something
> >that goes hand in hand. Neither diminishes the other.
>
> Then this is a view unique to Africans then.
Yes. It is, isn't it? :')
> >As for you're statement on Native Americans, THAT's insultingly
> >presumptive. That "woefully ignorant American" is showing in you again.....
>
> Are you saying that Native Americans don't identify themselves by
> nation?
Of course not I was mocking you. Not all Native Americans identify
themselves by nation though.
> That they do lump themselves together in a single collective?
Nope.
> >Ummm.... re-read that. I was referring to an exchange between USA and
> >African countries.
>
> Which countries? Which region? Northern Africa or Sub-Saharan? East
> coast or west? Does South Africa count? Does a white native of
> Johannesburg constitute the African experience?
All countries, all regions. Now more than ever, South Africa counts as well.
As for a white native of Johannesburg, sure. If that person has
ancestral connections to someone here or is just curious about the
African American experience, why not? I'd think that person would be
more concerned with the tensions that exist in their own nation though.
> >No it doesn't but when you state that African Americans are arrogant,
> >lazy and ignorant to embrace that association due only to the fact that
> >they have little to no means to make the connections to their original
> >cultures, it smack of nothing but PURE ignorance.
>
> I stated no such thing. That is your inferrence.
You make it quite clear that you believe that the term is a sign of
ignorance, laziness, and arrogance. These are the key words you use to
describe the use of the term. If you do not then why all of this? Why
bother?
> Interestingly enough Malcolm X took the "X" as a last name to
> designate the specific, if unknown, culture in Africa from which his
> ancestry traces (speculated to be the Bambara people of Mali, West
> Africa (http://www.brothermalcolm.net/ajar.html)).
Now you're learning. His evolution from Malcom Little to Malcom X to
Malik Shabazz is an excellent example of how African Americans search
for and find their connection to Africa. Fortunately he had the aid of
actually family commentary on his ancestry. Most here do not.
I'm glad you see my point.
Later....
Kwesi K.
Ross TenEyck
>> But wasn't Douglas saying (in a sort of roundabout manner, true)
>> that he -isn't- African?
>I'm not disagreeing with this.
>Of his own personal views, what I disagree with is that he as absolutely
>no connection to Africa. Of course he's Canadian. Don't be ridiculous.
> But to patently deny that he comes from African ancestry when even
>people from Africa would inquire so upon looking at him is flat out denial.
I hesitate to speak for someone else, but I don't think he's
denying that he has African ancestry -- he just (apparently)
doesn't feel that this gives him a meaningful "connection"
to Africa.
I have Scottish ancestry. If anyone asked me what clan I was
from, I wouldn't have a clue -- and even if I did, it wouldn't
mean anything. I have no cultural ties with modern-day Scotland,
or even ancient Scotland; some people with a tenuous genetic
link with me lived there once, that's all.
Now, if you personally derive strength and meaning from a tie
to Africa -- more power to you. But that tie does not come about
simply because you have African ancestry -- it comes about because
*you* created it, with your identification with and interest in
Africa.
This identification is a personal choice. If it works for you,
then that's great; but it won't for everyone, and just because
another person has African ancestors, doesn't mean that they
feel, or have, any real connection to that continent. Similarly,
someone WITHOUT African ancestors, who went to live with a particular
African people, who was accepted by them and adopted their lifestyle,
would have a strong tie with these people despite not sharing
their blood.
Cultural ties are not, and cannot be, genetic; you can't "inherit"
them in the same way you inherit the color of your hair or skin.
>I also agree that ancestry is not an automatic connection to a culture
>but at the same time it can be the step to creating closer bonds with
>people who may share a similar history. What he had was a wonderful
>opportunity to connect and share with someone who was probably willing
>to do the same.
Well, that's true enough; but realistically, someone whose
ancestors were brought to America as slaves a couple hundred
years ago, and someone whose ancestors stayed in Africa,
probably don't share much similar history.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
K. Jeffery Petersen
>
> > Ancestry may be genetic, but it doesn't create a connection.
> > Ancestry isn't enough to make you part of a culture or society.
> > (Heck, sometimes -living- there isn't enough to make you part of a
> > culture or society...) If he feels he didn't fit in, or that the
> > description doesn't fit him... well, he should know, right?
>
> He does not have to accept the culture to admit it. It's plainly
> written all over his face. When people in Africa ask you what tribe you
> are from it is simply a way to gauge where your family originates.
> Something akin to asking what neighborhood you are from.
>
> I also agree that ancestry is not an automatic connection to a culture
> but at the same time it can be the step to creating closer bonds with
> people who may share a similar history. What he had was a wonderful
> opportunity to connect and share with someone who was probably willing
> to do the same.
>
> If this was not his intent, I was strongly mistaken.
I think the point Douglas and Scott are trying to make is that the the term
"African-American" (or "African-Canadian" or whatever it might be. ^_^;;) tends
to imply some cultural link as well as some ancestral link. Douglas's point is
that the cultural link does not exist, so to identify himself as "African" in
any way is a misnomer. I'd imagine he'd refer to himself as "black"...
Which, ultimately, is more accurate. I'd refer to myself as "White" not
"Norwegian-American" because while I can trace my family back to Norway (on both
sides) as well as various other European nationalities, the cultural connection
is tenuous at best. If anything, I am far more British than anything else
(besides plain old American) but that's because I lived there for six years.
The assumption that skin color should indicate a cultural connection is
presumptuous... but on the other hand, just because we are American doesn't mean
we shouldn't explore our cultural roots, if we so choose.
> Later....
> Kwesi K.
-KJP
Otaku-American (^_~)
Kyle Thomas Pope
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Thanks. These sources, while having nothing to do with what we're
>discussing, go to support how the lost history is neither supported or
>preserved within the educational system even today. Although it does
>nothing to explain how you think it means American are "woefully
>ignorant of anything that goes on outside of it's borders". These are
>simply sources that seem to chart the degradation of the American
>educational system.
The sources go to refute your contention that I was making a sweeping,
ignorant generalization. It's a situation of concern to the US Dept
of Education and warrants continuing study and eventual rectification.
If you view this as a "sweeping, ignorant generalization" then your
beef is not with me but with the US Dept of Education.
>I thank you again. These sources go to discredit this statement you
>made earlier that "African American" is simply a designation of laziness
>and that the first step was to crack open a book and learn something.
>These sites, along with the CD-ROMS I mentioned earlier, go to prove
>that African Americans are doing just that.
That the information is there doesn't in itself prove it's being
utilized. Tracing personal ancestry requires a finer resolution than
the continental level.
>While the information is not irretrievable, there are still many people
>who will never be able to make the ancestral connections because of
>either time, money, or the information has been lost somewhere along the
>line of notes, registries, and manifolds. Even Haley's son commented on
>how the discovery and modernizing of the information helps to reduce
>time in doing the research needed. Time that many people, who live day
>to day, do not have to spare.
Meaning that geneological research for many people consists of
assuming dark skin equates to an African origin? After all, how much
of the black American population came here not as a result of the
slave trade but from voluntary immigration? That distinction alone
changes the complexion of one's stance relative to the rest of the
culture.
>No one is denying the individuality of African people and societies.
>But there is a movement within Africa that is designed to unite the
>nations. Not as one giant governing body but as a coalition of
>cooperative nations that works for the good of all. Try sticking Pan
>Africanism into your search engine and see what you get.
What I get is a movement similar to what's motivating the formation of
the European Union. Nothing in either movement, however, suggests the
abandonment of individual cultural and national identity.
>Oh and the collective history of Africa that I speak of involves the
>damage rendered by colonialism, economic dependence on out side sources,
>and internal squabbles as well. All African nations have been affected
>these issues.
As have the nations of Europe, Asia, North and South America, etc.
The Africans, like the people of the other continents and regions of
the planet, view this history through the filters of their individual
cultures, nations and histories.
>Not quite. See, within the time it take to recover whatever lost
>history, a new history has taken place. This is the charting of peoples
>and events that have made their home here through the slave trade. The
>history of African Americans. Granted, those that are able to chart
>their ancestry back to it's origin may very well take on the name of
>that source. But those that are not able to make the connection or are
>simply content being American but recognize their origin as a part of
>American History (the slave trade) may simply be happy referring to
>themselves as African American.
I suggest that anyone truly interested in their heritage would not be
content with such a generic label which says essentially nothing
beyond an ethnic grouping using the current politically correct
terminology. For them, Africa is simply a starting point.
"African-American" is as much a statement of cultural origin as
"Terran-American".
>Actually if your ancestry is Caribbean, it has ties that lead directly
>to Africa due to the fact that those islands were used as slave trade
>centers of export. Next plug Haile Selassie into your search engine and
>see what you get.
While the Carribean was certainly a center of slave activity the area
was not uninhabited while waiting for the slave traders to show up.
When you're talking about the Carribean you are dealing with the
native inhabitants as well and the role they played in the
geneological heritage of anyone tracing their roots there.
>> Then this is a view unique to Africans then.
>
>Yes. It is, isn't it? :')
No, it isn't. African people are as fiercely proud of their
individual and distinct cultures as the inhabitants of any other
continent. Canadians, Mexicans and Americans see themselves as
separate and distinct cultures and do not see themselves as part of a
greater cultural whole of "North Americans". And these three
countries have more in common historically and experientially than a
lot of nations in Africa.
>Of course not I was mocking you.
Is this a standard debating method of yours?
>You make it quite clear that you believe that the term is a sign of
>ignorance, laziness, and arrogance. These are the key words you use to
>describe the use of the term. If you do not then why all of this? Why
>bother?
My point is that "African-American" when used as a term to indicate
cultural origin says nothing and as such is useless. I covers way too
much territory, culture and history to say anything about where a
person comes from.
>Now you're learning. His evolution from Malcom Little to Malcom X to
>Malik Shabazz is an excellent example of how African Americans search
>for and find their connection to Africa. Fortunately he had the aid of
>actually family commentary on his ancestry. Most here do not.
It also shows his interest was for a level of resolution a lot finer
than the continental level.
Scott Schimmel
>I think the point Douglas and Scott are trying to make is that the the term
>"African-American" (or "African-Canadian" or whatever it might be. ^_^;;) tends
>to imply some cultural link as well as some ancestral link. Douglas's point is
>that the cultural link does not exist, so to identify himself as "African" in
>any way is a misnomer. I'd imagine he'd refer to himself as "black"...
Not quite, but close enough. I think we were just missing each
other's intent.
Though the proliferation of "X-American" is somewhere between a pet
peeve and a source of humor for me. One of my college friends, for
instance, was a white who was born in South Africa and became a
naturalized US citizen. Took her a little while to understand why
she was getting in trouble for identifying herself, quite
accurately, as "African-American"...
(Let's not even get into "native American"...)
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Ross TenEyck wrote:
>
> Kwesi Ako Kennedy <kwes...@pacbell.net> writes:
> >Scott Schimmel wrote:
> >I also agree that ancestry is not an automatic connection to a culture
> >but at the same time it can be the step to creating closer bonds with
> >people who may share a similar history. What he had was a wonderful
> >opportunity to connect and share with someone who was probably willing
> >to do the same.
>
> Well, that's true enough; but realistically, someone whose
> ancestors were brought to America as slaves a couple hundred
> years ago, and someone whose ancestors stayed in Africa,
> probably don't share much similar history.
Regardless of whether it matches exactly or not, there are many Africans
and African Americans that make a personal choice of re-connecting with
each other. The one historical event that they do unite over is the
slave trade. Those that are willing to do it usually refer to
themselves as African American. Even if that bond is simply genetic.
That is all I'm saying.
Individuals that choose not to make this connection are more than free
to do this as well.
Later....
Kwesi K.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
"K. Jeffery Petersen" wrote:
>
>
> I think the point Douglas and Scott are trying to make is that the the term
> "African-American" (or "African-Canadian" or whatever it might be. ^_^;;) tends
> to imply some cultural link as well as some ancestral link. Douglas's point is
> that the cultural link does not exist, so to identify himself as "African" in
> any way is a misnomer. I'd imagine he'd refer to himself as "black"...
This a purely a personal choice. What I'm trying to do is simply
explain how and why African Americans refer to themselves as such.
Douglas, while stating his personal opinion, questioned the validity of
the term.
> The assumption that skin color should indicate a cultural connection is
> presumptuous... but on the other hand, just because we are American doesn't mean
> we shouldn't explore our cultural roots, if we so choose.
I have no argument with this. But from the perspective of those that
seek the close the gap in their own personal histories, genealogy it the
first set of steps on a long road.
Later....
Kwesi K.
sanjian
news:3AF8B1BB...@pacbell.net...
> Tell me, how is it arrogant to simply recognize one's origins regardless
> of this gap in the collective history of former slaves? Should we have
> just let it go? The need to connect with one's past is, for any group
> of people, is a very real and powerful thing. In light of this gap we
> simply accept ourselves as descendants of Africans.
>
> How arrogant is the term Italian American? Irish American? Japanese
American?
I'm of Irish descent, and I have no desire to be called Irish American. I'm
proud of my ancestory, but I'm American.
Arnold Kim
Kyle Thomas Pope <kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com> wrote in message
news:1EB05A5A6C50A013.C524CF4E...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Tue, 08 May 2001 20:14:00 -0700, Kwesi Ako Kennedy
> <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Try this on for size and see if it fits. I was shopping with my mother
> > one day and as usual, she calls out my name. A man at the counter where
> > I was sanding turns to me and asks if I'm from Ghana, the origin of my
> > name. I reply by saying, "No, I'm not African, I from America." His
> > reply to this is to tell me quite calmly, "Excuse me but no. You ARE
> > African. You of people who came from Africa".
>
> Interestingly enough it was that very same attitude that got the
> Japanese-American population interned in concentration camps during
> WWII.
There's a difference between attitudes of _inclusion_, which is featured in
Kwesi's example, and attitudes of _exclusion_ that were prevalent during the
era of Japanese internment camps. I think it's far worse to mistakenly
identify someone else as an "other" than to mistakenly identify them as
their own. One, albeit misplaced, emphasizes making bonds, the other
emphasizes breaking them.
> If I declare myself to be an American you damn well better
> respect that regardless of where you think my name came from.
This I agree with. But at the same time, it's probably best not to forget
one's ancestry.
Arnold Kim
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Kyle Thomas Pope wrote:
>
> On Wed, 09 May 2001 10:19:00 -0700, Kwesi Ako Kennedy
> <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Thanks. These sources, while having nothing to do with what we're
> >discussing, go to support how the lost history is neither supported or
> >preserved within the educational system even today. Although it does
> >nothing to explain how you think it means American are "woefully
> >ignorant of anything that goes on outside of it's borders". These are
> >simply sources that seem to chart the degradation of the American
> >educational system.
>
> The sources go to refute your contention that I was making a sweeping,
> ignorant generalization.
OK look, if all you're going to do is run in circles, I have no patience
any further.
I wanted to get across that African Americans simply use the term as a
starting point to complete their own personal genealogical histories as
well as letting outsiders know where they're coming from in this regard.
You won't accept it and there's nothing I can do about it.
Later.....
Kwesi K.
( going to go back to looking for Gasaraki 4.....)
Arnold Kim
> >But as you yourself state, they are the cultures of Asia. Nothing lost,
> >nothing gained.
>
> And Asians in America tend to be aware of which specific culture
> they're descended from.
I'd just like to chime in here that us Asian-Americans do tend to accept
that hyphenated mantle, even though we have recognition of the nationalities
we come from. There are Asian-American magazines, Asian-American societies
and so on that do cover Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans,
Korean-Americans, Filipino-Americans and other Asian roots.
Why do we do this? I suspect two reasons.
1) There tends to be _some_ commonality of experience, not as Koreans,
Japanese, or Chinese, but as Koreans, Japanese, or Chinese living in
America, which is where the Asian American stereotypes and the Model
Minority myth come from. Similarly, I'm guessing (and could be very wrong)
that African-American is based on commonalities of experience (possibly race
based) for people originating from Africa.
2) Because many outsiders actually think of us as this lump group, and
rather than fight the generalization, the way to make things better for
ourselves is to work together under it. The mere fact that other Americans
see us as "Asian Americans" automatically put us all on the same boat.
Arnold Kim
Kyle Thomas Pope
<kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>I wanted to get across that African Americans simply use the term as a
>starting point to complete their own personal genealogical histories as
>well as letting outsiders know where they're coming from in this regard.
> You won't accept it and there's nothing I can do about it.
No. I'm just not as naive about it as you seem to be.
K. Jeffery Petersen
>
> "K. Jeffery Petersen" <rek...@sandwich.net> wrote:
> >I think the point Douglas and Scott are trying to make is that the the term
> >"African-American" (or "African-Canadian" or whatever it might be. ^_^;;) tends
> >to imply some cultural link as well as some ancestral link. Douglas's point is
> >that the cultural link does not exist, so to identify himself as "African" in
> >any way is a misnomer. I'd imagine he'd refer to himself as "black"...
>
> Not quite, but close enough. I think we were just missing each
> other's intent.
>
> Though the proliferation of "X-American" is somewhere between a pet
> peeve and a source of humor for me. One of my college friends, for
> instance, was a white who was born in South Africa and became a
> naturalized US citizen. Took her a little while to understand why
> she was getting in trouble for identifying herself, quite
> accurately, as "African-American"...
>
> (Let's not even get into "native American"...)
Not really a reply to this, but just something else that came to mind.
When examineing the cultural roots of a group that moves away from its initial
land of origin, there's an interesting phenomena of what parts of the culture go
quickly and which leave very slowly, if at all. Somewhat surprisingly (to me)
the things that disappear the quickest are clothing and accent (at best, they'll
probably last for the generation that travelled over, perhaps slightly into the
next) and language surviving not too much longer. Food, on the other hand, tends
to last a long time.
So... perhaps, in a cultural sense, "we are what we eat". ^_^
> Scott Schimmel http://schimmel.sandwich.net
-KJP
Slithy Tove
wrote:
>
>Kyle Thomas Pope <kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com> wrote in message
>news:3D76FEB63C860688.11E2B986...@lp.airnews.net...
>> On Tue, 08 May 2001 23:05:03 -0700, Kwesi Ako Kennedy
>> <kwes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> >But as you yourself state, they are the cultures of Asia. Nothing lost,
>> >nothing gained.
>>
>> And Asians in America tend to be aware of which specific culture
>> they're descended from.
>
>I'd just like to chime in here that us Asian-Americans do tend to accept
>that hyphenated mantle, even though we have recognition of the nationalities
>we come from. There are Asian-American magazines, Asian-American societies
>and so on that do cover Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans,
>Korean-Americans, Filipino-Americans and other Asian roots.
>
>Why do we do this? I suspect two reasons.
>
>1) There tends to be _some_ commonality of experience, not as Koreans,
>Japanese, or Chinese, but as Koreans, Japanese, or Chinese living in
>America, which is where the Asian American stereotypes and the Model
>Minority myth come from. Similarly, I'm guessing (and could be very wrong)
>that African-American is based on commonalities of experience (possibly race
>based) for people originating from Africa.
This is very astute; I had never thought about it this way before.
So you are saying, if I understand correctly, that the meaning of
being 'African-American' or 'Asian-American' has little or nothing to
do with Africa or Asia per se, and that the fact that there is no
single 'African' or 'Asian' culture or nation is irrelevant; rather,
it's a shared experience of being perceived of other Americans --
chiefly white -- as 'African' or 'Asian'.
Thus, even a black person whose family had moved to, say, Italy, a
hundred years ago, and who was for all practical purposes an Italian
culturally, would still be an 'African-American' because they were
treated like other people with black skin by the culture?
That's a very interesting idea. It also allows for a light-skinned
black person, who may well have more European genetic material than
African, to still be an 'African-American', because he is perceived
that way by the wider culture. It's the only way the term would make
sense for such an individual. Yet, if you don't use the term, it goes
contrary to his entire life experience in America.
Still, I don't think this is what Kwesi had in mind.
== Tove
>
>2) Because many outsiders actually think of us as this lump group, and
>rather than fight the generalization, the way to make things better for
>ourselves is to work together under it. The mere fact that other Americans
>see us as "Asian Americans" automatically put us all on the same boat.
>
>Arnold Kim
>
>
>
--
Honto no kanashimi ga shiritai dake
Hans Holm
have misunderstood.
I couldn't decide which post this should be a reply to either.
Premise: Scots and Englishmen are British, but British is often equalled
with English
and, well, Scots generally don't appreciate being referred to as English.
People of African origin from Brazil, the West Indies and the U.S. are all
African-Americans (as in of African origin and living in America, the
continent(s)),
but the Brazilian and the West Indian might not want to be lumped together
as a
whole with the guy from the U.S.
I can't speak for anybody else, but when I hear African-American I think of
someone from the U.S., or possibly Canada.
Hans Holm
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Slithy Tove wrote:
Aside from the Italian angle you proposed, this is EXACTLY what I had in mind.
The Italian, if they were so inclined to do so, would simply refer to
themselves as African Italian.
If not, just Italian.
Same goes for Americans as well.
It's all boils down to personal choice in the very end.
Later.....
Kwesi K.
Arnold Kim
Slithy Tove <sli...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:51jkfto3k41phv7d9...@4ax.com...
Something like that. I'm fairly sure it's the case with Asian-Americans;
though I can't really speak for blacks. I don't think the "Asian-American"
term quite has anything to do with rediscovering ethnic origins, since we
all know we're Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, and so forth.
There are indeed _some_ legitimate cultural similarities between Asian
countries (which is again, part of where the model minority myth comes
from); however, I wouldn't assume that it's much different than, say,
western Europe in that respect.
> Thus, even a black person whose family had moved to, say, Italy, a
> hundred years ago, and who was for all practical purposes an Italian
> culturally, would still be an 'African-American' because they were
> treated like other people with black skin by the culture?
I would think so. My presumption would be that it comes from a sense of
bonding created by the common experience of being treated as black in
America. It's sort of like America places a minority group in a box, and
the connection comes out of the similar experience of being placed in that
box. And of course, different minorities are placed in different boxes.
But at the same time, I'd think that calling oneself "African-_American_"
implies some kind of tie to America as well. We adopt the "Asian" part to
some degree because of the way others regard us as "Asian", but the
"American" part comes from some kind of connection to the US. Other
Americans didn't exactly force the whole "Asian-American" label on us, we
accepted the label in part to face the reality that many of them look at all
of us in the same way, and so it was on our terms that the "American" part
was included.
I suspect that's why white Americans don't call themselves
"European-Americans". Thre is no real common experience as being "treated"
as caucasian in the US. Unless they have a real experience as being
regarded as a minority (and many do-people from Spain are still considered
Latinos, and of course Italian-Americans are often stereotyped), I really
don't see any cause for hyphenating nationality.
Arnold Kim
K. Jeffery Petersen
>
> "K. Jeffery Petersen" wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think the point Douglas and Scott are trying to make is that the the term
> > "African-American" (or "African-Canadian" or whatever it might be. ^_^;;) tends
> > to imply some cultural link as well as some ancestral link. Douglas's point is
> > that the cultural link does not exist, so to identify himself as "African" in
> > any way is a misnomer. I'd imagine he'd refer to himself as "black"...
>
> This a purely a personal choice. What I'm trying to do is simply
> explain how and why African Americans refer to themselves as such.
> Douglas, while stating his personal opinion, questioned the validity of
> the term.
I think the problem developed when you said (I may be wrong, here, can't easily
check past messages) that "the connection is written plain on your face." Or
something similar.
I parsed that to mean that you were saying because he's black, the cultural
connection exists and therefore he should aknowledge it. I'm guessing others
read it in a similar manner. Even if that's NOT what you meant, the argument
developed from there. Misunderstanding, it seems.
Unless I'm wrong. ^_^;
> Kwesi K.
-KJP
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
"K. Jeffery Petersen" wrote:
> I parsed that to mean that you were saying because he's black, the cultural
> connection exists and therefore he should aknowledge it.
Not a cultural one but a genetic one. That is all. That is the
evidence I was speaking of.
Later....
Kwesi K.
(aheheheh one big misunderstanding ahehe-heh......sheeeeshhhh)
mi priya
will be never ending...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Kirk
bienve...@aol.com says...
> well, it's hard to escape labels especially if you live in the U.S. where every
> freaking application wants to put you in a box (i.e. asian; african american,
> pacific islander, mexican; puertorican; hispanic of non-caucasian origin;
> hispanic of non-african origin etc @__@)
>
There is quite a difference of attitude about that, depending on one's
generation. Within the memory of black Americans (note the term)
still living, it was a victory to be called "Negro" rather than n*gg*r
or "colored."
During the youth generation, it was a victory to be called Black--
because we decided we were proud to be known by the most object of
labels without fear. "Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud!" Calling
a spade a spade, so to speak.
African-American? I know some *real* African-Americans. They are
people who immigrated from Africa and have become American citizens.
> I was objecting to the label "Negroe" since it has so many negative
> connotations (too "Jim Crow" for me ^^:;) Anyways, more power to you and to
> each his own.
>
--
Kirk
Experience is the best teacher...
But her pop quizzes can be mighty tough.
Kirk
says...
> Aside from the Italian angle you proposed, this is EXACTLY what I had in mind.
> The Italian, if they were so inclined to do so, would simply refer to
> themselves as African Italian.
> If not, just Italian.
>
Not exactly. What Kim said is that in terms of dealing with non-Asian
Americans, they acknowledge that they are all lumped together in the
eyes of *those* non-Asian Americans. That's a matter of understanding
how others see you in order to rationally engage them.
That is different from how they see themselves--as deriving from quite
varying ethnic cultures.
Kirk
kly...@aol.comedy says...
> Ain't we _all_ African, if we care to go back far enough?
>
Interestingly, one of the new theories coming out of the human genome
project is that it appears racial differentiation is only about 4,000
years old.
Kirk
pri...@hotmail.com says...
> if we become too much engrossed with our physical feature then the argument
> will be never ending...
>
One of the recent theories deriving from the human genome project is
that it appears racial differentiation is only about 4,000 years old.
That makes the origin of race *historical* in context--and probably
explains why there is much ancient history about differences in
culture, but little mention of difference in race even though we know
there was significant continental travel even back then.
Klyfix
<kirkdarlin...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>In article <20010508233635...@nso-mg.aol.com>,
>kly...@aol.comedy says...
>> Ain't we _all_ African, if we care to go back far enough?
>>
>
>
>Interestingly, one of the new theories coming out of the human genome
>project is that it appears racial differentiation is only about 4,000
>years old.
>
That seems a bit low; after all, by that point there were folk in the
Americas and Australia who had been isolated from the rest of
humanity for some time, and it's well within written history.
Main thing I've been seeing is that apparently it was a fairly small
number of people who left Africa originally, and when we get to
the forebearers of Northern Europeans there might well have been
a group of around fifty people for a number of generations. Africans
have far more genetic diversity than the rest of humanity.
But the big thing, of course, is that We're All In This Thing
Together, on one little planet, at least until we get around
to starting a Mars colony (which most likely won't have the
reproduction problems suggested in that "Armitage III"
film).
V. S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...
Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html
RPG and SF, predictions, philosophy, and other things.
"It's not like Sioux Falls"-A guy on the Boston subway.