The Issue: "Hard subtitles" and criticism of US fandom..
Terrence Huey
say, but it needs to be addressed and I hope people will become more
aware and opinionated on the subject. And the subject is.. "hard"
subtitles on DVDs.
This entire discussion stemmed from what I believe to be a ridiculous
outburst from American fandom. That is, when ADVisions tried to
do something new with the English overlays on the first Eva DVD,
the outcry was so large that they reverted back to the old method,
the horrible method of hardsubtitles of signs and Japanese text. Is
American fandom SOOOOO incredibly stupid(apparently so) to
whine about replacing -precious original video footage-, and yet
praise overlaying what-is-to-be-hard subtitles and thus cluttering
up the screen which for some reason, isn't defacing the -precious
original video footage-?
I'm a purist... far more than most of you. Most of the time I would
prefer watching raw Japanese shows than to see it in subtitled format
or dubbed. Yet I am absolutely baffled at fandom's outcry of the
English overlays. I'm of the opinion that if they have to do it one way
or the other, then the English overlays is far better than cluttering the
screen with subtitles, or even worse, putting subtitles on top of the
original text. (Can you imagine KareKano? Ugh...) These latter methods
that people seem to like do far more damage to the original video
than having hard subtitles all over the screen.
I absolutely hate hard subtitles. I don't believe they should ever be used.
But they exist... on pretty much every DVD out there. Signs are usually
hard-subbed. Title screens are usually hard-subbed. Most? op/eds
are hard-subbed. Yet no one complains. I am hoping that people will.
I am hoping that people will complain about that instead of something
I considered an improvement on domestic Eva... but also because hard
-subtitles are more than just signs, like in the case of the opening and
ending
sequences.
As long as people tolerate them, they'll keep doing 'em.
John Hokanson Jr.
To be succinct, ADV is not exploiting the DVD format to its full
extent. Nobody is really. Perhaps I'm too much on the bleeding
edge on this one, but I feel with DVD, there's little point to
hard subbing anymore.
Overlays or hard subs are not the only two options. The DVD
standard allows for multiple sub tracks, just as it does
multiple camera angles, and multiple audio tracks. This would
allow the viewer to customize what they want translated.
If having every peice of Japanese text subbed is really a
bother to some, then they should have the option of turning
some of it off, and have just the dialogue subbed. OTOH, the
vast majority of Americans are going to need text translated
into English in one way or another, so it remains unclear how
many people could get by without knowing what a particular
thing says.
I know Avatar has stated that the soft subbing standard basically
sucks ass, however it seems to me that this may get better with
time, and is hypothetically possible now if ADV were willing to
put time into it. The question is whether it behooves them to.
As the eternal cynic, I do wonder why they'd be willing to go
to the extra trouble of physically altering the animation, and
adding four different language tracks, but rule out what I feel is
an obvious remedy made possible thanks to the versitility of the
DVD format.
I appreciate the fact that the reason why they went to the
overlays in the first place is because fans bitched about sub
overload with the VHS tapes. That does show ADV listens to
their customers if the complaints are deafening enough. But
overlays? I dunno. I think most fans find that the cure is
worse than the disease. The difference in screen resolution is
bothersome, and it's a matter of principle for some. It's most
annoying for the purists.
Personally I prefer the EVA dub (with some minor quibbles of
no great concern), and so from my vantage point, I don't see
the sub overload, and therefore prefer the hard subs over
the overlays if those are the ONLY two choices ADV will give me.
What I want to know is whether the EVA DVDs are dubtitled or not.
If they aren't, kudos to ADV for doing one of the most faithful
dubs I've heard.
--
John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr. --- is...@usagi.com
"Flames don't kill bandwidth, people kill
bandwidth..."
- Damien Roc on r.a.a.m.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
David Watson
> First of all, I guarantee that some will be offended by the things I will
> say, but it needs to be addressed and I hope people will become more
> aware and opinionated on the subject. And the subject is.. "hard"
> subtitles on DVDs.
>
> This entire discussion stemmed from what I believe to be a ridiculous
> outburst from American fandom. That is, when ADVisions tried to
> do something new with the English overlays on the first Eva DVD,
> the outcry was so large that they reverted back to the old method,
> the horrible method of hardsubtitles of signs and Japanese text. Is
> American fandom SOOOOO incredibly stupid(apparently so) to
> whine about replacing -precious original video footage-, and yet
> praise overlaying what-is-to-be-hard subtitles and thus cluttering
> up the screen which for some reason, isn't defacing the -precious
> original video footage-?
So they did hardsub those? Fuck! I don't know about the rest of you, but
I did E-mail ADV suggesting the three sub tracks approach: Dialogue,
dialogue with signs and signs only. That way, they could be switched off
if one wanted. Guess they couldn't be bothered to do even that in the six
months they took to produce Vol. 2. Back to the drawing board, ADV, and
take care of the OP sequence in New Cutey Honey while you're at it.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (_Stretcher_ CD-R--sevcom.com)
Frezier Balzoff (aka Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
"A man is measured by the depth of his anger."--Eddie (graffiti)
tablesalt
Terrence Huey wrote:
> First of all, I guarantee that some will be offended by the things I will
> say, but it needs to be addressed and I hope people will become more
> aware and opinionated on the subject. And the subject is.. "hard"
> subtitles on DVDs.
Jubei-chan from Bandai uses soft subtitles for all signs and such. That is the
ideal method (and, what most people complaining about overlays wanted.)
ADV's Eva has hard subs because their using the dub masters; because, their the
best masters they have (either that, or their just cheap and lazy ;-) )
tablesalt
tablesalt
tablesalt misspelled:
> Jubei-chan from Bandai uses soft subtitles for all signs and such. That is the
> ideal method (and, what most people complaining about overlays wanted.)
> ADV's Eva has hard subs because their using the dub masters; because, their the
> best masters they have (either that, or their just cheap and lazy ;-) )
All the THEIRs are supposed to be THEY'REs.
tablesalt.
Skeleton Man
"David Watson" <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message news:91d6t4
> So they did hardsub those? Fuck! I don't know about the rest of you, but
> I did E-mail ADV suggesting the three sub tracks approach: Dialogue,
> dialogue with signs and signs only. That way, they could be switched off
> if one wanted. Guess they couldn't be bothered to do even that in the six
> months they took to produce Vol. 2. Back to the drawing board, ADV, and
> take care of the OP sequence in New Cutey Honey while you're at it.
> --
Well as far as I am concerned these comapnies take too damn long to get the
stuff out anyway.. and THEn it's bad... Shows liek Gasaraki and Evangelion
are complete on the R2 side of things so I'll likely be picking up the
series from CD Japan sometime.
I've almost had it with these year and a half release schedules.
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
There's a new project in the works....
John Hokanson Jr.
tablesalt <sab...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> Terrence Huey wrote:
>
> > First of all, I guarantee that some will be offended by the things
I will
> > say, but it needs to be addressed and I hope people will become more
> > aware and opinionated on the subject. And the subject is.. "hard"
> > subtitles on DVDs.
>
> Jubei-chan from Bandai uses soft subtitles for all signs and such.
That's exactly what ADV should be doing.
I can not help but think ADV is using "hack" methods to get out of
using accessable DVD technology. If they don't have decent mastering
software, they should invest in better software. If it's pain in the
ass for their techs to do it, hire somebody who knows what they're
oing.
ADV has already demonstrated their propensity to make as many people as
possible happy by dubbing the series into three different languages. Go
the extra distance and remove the hard subs.
Bruce Tomlin
<yangn...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I know Avatar has stated that the soft subbing standard basically
> sucks ass, however it seems to me that this may get better with
> time, and is hypothetically possible now if ADV were willing to
It does basically suck ass, because some genius involved in the creation of
the DVD format decided that only four colors (2 bits per pixel) were needed
for subtitles, and that no better mode was needed as an option. This guy was
obviously ignorant of the state of the art in anime subtitling, and probably
thought "Duhhh, it's for the deaf and for movie companies to sell in markets
that aren't worth the time to make a dub. Why go to any more trouble?"
The sharp edges in the signal produced by only having four colors cause lots
of problems with the low resolution of TV sets. I've ranted about that
enough times, I won't do it again this time.
Ryan Mathews
it last time. Let me just say that I agree with you 100%. The text
overlays were far less intrusive than hard subs. But when I tried to
explain that, I got the Usenet equivalent of dumb looks.
The best I can figure is that fans treat hard subs like the black-suited
stagehands in Japanese puppet-dramas. They train themselves not to see
them. An overlay is sacrilege, because it "changes" the original image.
Hard subs also alter the original image, but because they're "not really
there", it's okay.
I'm not happy at the overlays being removed, but I'll live. What upsets me
more is that ADV decided not to fix the image jitter. This was a problem
with the original source material, in which the image would jump or shake
occasionally. (It's due to poor film editing.) For the first DVD, ADV
spent a great deal of money to fix this problem, resulting in a rock-steady
picture. But they got no gratitude, as fandom preferred to bitch and whine
about the text overlays. So for volume 2, ADV said "@#$% it". I guess I
can't blame them.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com ICQ#: 11539925
Fanfic archive: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~mathews/
Read my web review column, "Last Exit Before Toll"
on the Anime Web Turnpike http://www.anipike.com/lastexit/
Read my dub review column, "The Dub Track"
at http://akadot.com/ (in the "Columns" section)
tablesalt
Ryan Mathews wrote:
> I don't want to get too involved with this thread, because I had my fill of
> it last time. Let me just say that I agree with you 100%. The text
> overlays were far less intrusive than hard subs. But when I tried to
> explain that, I got the Usenet equivalent of dumb looks.
We give the dumb look as we think to ourselves: "does he not know a DVD can
produce soft subs?"
ADV went to the dub masters out of cheapness. They could have gone back to
their original masters, de-jittered them, and tossed an extra subtrack on the
DVD. (all for the same or less cost as it would have been to continue with the
DVD vol.1 method) They chose not to.
tablesalt
John Hokanson Jr.
math...@ix.netcom.com (Ryan Mathews) wrote:
> I don't want to get too involved with this thread, because I had my
fill of
> it last time. Let me just say that I agree with you 100%. The text
> overlays were far less intrusive than hard subs. But when I tried to
> explain that, I got the Usenet equivalent of dumb looks.
>
> The best I can figure is that fans treat hard subs like the black-
suited
> stagehands in Japanese puppet-dramas. They train themselves not to
see
> them. An overlay is sacrilege, because it "changes" the original
image.
> Hard subs also alter the original image, but because they're "not
really
> there", it's okay.
>
That's a pretty good analogy (about the puppet dramas, that is).
Personally want to see the sign in Japanese, and when there's a
translation, I want to know it's a translation. I don't want sign to
masquerade around as if the character were reading English. After all,
Eva takes place in Japan.
> I'm not happy at the overlays being removed, but I'll live. What
upsets me
> more is that ADV decided not to fix the image jitter. This was a
problem
> with the original source material, in which the image would jump or
shake
> occasionally. (It's due to poor film editing.) For the first DVD,
ADV
> spent a great deal of money to fix this problem, resulting in a rock-
steady
> picture. But they got no gratitude, as fandom preferred to bitch and
whine
> about the text overlays. So for volume 2, ADV said "@#$% it". I
guess I
> can't blame them.
The "image jitter" supposedly exists in the Gainax master as well. I
personally didn't notice it when I watched the tapes, but that was a
long time ago.
According to the posts on animeondvd.com, a vast majority of Eva fans
want the ADV DVDs to be as close as possible to the R2 DVDs. Hence,
the "image jitter" isn't an issue for those who know it's in the
original, but the overlays are. The other complaint was that the
transfer quality of the first disc was subpar. Numerous people took
screenshots that compared the R1, R2, and sub VHS tapes, and in terms
of sharpness and clarity, the R2 disc had a noticeable leg up on the
competition. The ADV DVD also had one or two scenes where they were a
number of jaggies around the animation lines (the ep where Misato is
sleeping, and gets a call from Ritsuko stands out in my mind, and I've
personally seen it on my copy without looking for it). However, I will
say that the ADV DVD is much better than the VHS tapes I saw, and I'm
generally pleased with the quality.
Ironically, fans can be indifferent or downright hostile towards
changes made by the American company that may improve the original.
In regards to the indifference, I wouldn't say it's ingratitude
necessarily, because some people really don't care about the jitter and
never asked for it to be fixed in the first place. I'm not going to be
put on a guilt trip because a company expended vast amounts of money
fixing what I feel might be a non-issue.
For the record, I never publicly complained about the overlays until
now, and I don't feel quite as passionate about them as others.
> --
> ---------- Ryan Mathews
>
> Email: math...@ix.netcom.com ICQ#: 11539925
> Fanfic archive: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~mathews/
> Read my web review column, "Last Exit Before Toll"
> on the Anime Web Turnpike http://www.anipike.com/lastexit/
> Read my dub review column, "The Dub Track"
> at http://akadot.com/ (in the "Columns" section)
>
--
Terrence Huey
of
> it last time. Let me just say that I agree with you 100%. The text
> overlays were far less intrusive than hard subs. But when I tried to
> explain that, I got the Usenet equivalent of dumb looks.
Wow, someone defending the overlays? I wish I were present for that...
I'd love to cap on the fanboys defending hardsubs all over the screen...
> The best I can figure is that fans treat hard subs like the black-suited
> stagehands in Japanese puppet-dramas. They train themselves not to see
> them. An overlay is sacrilege, because it "changes" the original image.
> Hard subs also alter the original image, but because they're "not really
> there", it's okay.
*chuckle* It especially ruins things when they have to stick subtitles
directly
on top of existing Japanese text. There are scenes in KareKano where the
screen is literally filled with Japanese text and the fansubs I've seen just
overlays it with subtitles(well they have to, if they are to sub it at all).
It is
absolutely awful looking... the subs are not very visible nor can you really
make out the original Japanese text out at all(the same text these fanboys
are
trying to "preserve"..) I hope that TRSI surprises me with softsubs for it
when
the DVD is released but there's various problems associated with
softsubbing,
so I doubt it will happen. Thus, given the choice between English overlays
or
hard subtitling and/or subtitle overlaying, I'd choose the English overlays
anytime.
> I'm not happy at the overlays being removed, but I'll live.
>What upsets me more is that ADV decided not to fix the image jitter.
> This was a problem with the original source material, in which the image
would
> jump or shake occasionally. (It's due to poor film editing.)
Well, that's another reason I can't stand the fanboys complaining about the
overlays.
Most "reviews" I've seen on the 1st Eva DVD was spent trashing the overlays,
but
they completely ignored the real problems of that DVD. There were some
video-
synching problems and I'm pretty sure on ep 1, there was an audio-hiccup, at
least
on the Japanese track. These are just several of the problems present in
DVD 1,
any of which is far more important than whining about English overlays.
>For the first DVD, ADV spent a great deal of money to fix this problem,
resulting
> in a rock-steady picture. But they got no gratitude, as fandom preferred
to bitch
> and whine about the text overlays. So for volume 2, ADV said "@#$% it".
I guess I
> can't blame them.
That's also true. I am one of ADV's biggest criticizers but lately I've
been defending
them from what I believe to be unfair criticism.
Well, glad to know someone else can think rationally about the overlays,
Ryan. ^_^
-T
Avatar
Ryan Mathews wrote:
>
> I don't want to get too involved with this thread, because I had my fill of
> it last time. Let me just say that I agree with you 100%. The text
> overlays were far less intrusive than hard subs. But when I tried to
> explain that, I got the Usenet equivalent of dumb looks.
>
> The best I can figure is that fans treat hard subs like the black-suited
> stagehands in Japanese puppet-dramas. They train themselves not to see
> them. An overlay is sacrilege, because it "changes" the original image.
> Hard subs also alter the original image, but because they're "not really
> there", it's okay.
>
> I'm not happy at the overlays being removed, but I'll live. What upsets me
> more is that ADV decided not to fix the image jitter. This was a problem
> with the original source material, in which the image would jump or shake
> occasionally. (It's due to poor film editing.) For the first DVD, ADV
> spent a great deal of money to fix this problem, resulting in a rock-steady
> picture. But they got no gratitude, as fandom preferred to bitch and whine
> about the text overlays. So for volume 2, ADV said "@#$% it". I guess I
> can't blame them.
We didn't do it because the stabilization process and the DVD encoding
process don't work and play well with each other. It wasn't possible to
get a decent transfer with the stabilization procedure (and not for lack
of effort!), so we regrettably had to leave off.
Avatar
Avatar
This is flatly untrue on every point.
Avatar
John Hokanson Jr.
"Terrence Huey" <th...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm not happy at the overlays being removed, but I'll live.
> >What upsets me more is that ADV decided not to fix the image jitter.
> > This was a problem with the original source material, in which the
image
> would
> > jump or shake occasionally. (It's due to poor film editing.)
>
> Well, that's another reason I can't stand the fanboys complaining
about the
> overlays.
What makes this statement ridiculous is that the "fanboys" are the
majority on this (thus further dilluting a term which used to be a means
of picking on the minority). ADV caved, which leads me to believe that
demand to remove the overlays was overwhelming (to the point where it
would affect sales). So, really, YOU'RE the fanboy for bucking the
trend and complaining about the hard subs. (j/k) :P
And furthermore, I haven't heard many people complain about the
jittering. Avatar just said that they had to give up the jitter control
in order to get a better video transfer. I think ADV made the better
decision in regards to this (the first disc might have had jitter
control, but the video quality wasn't the best). Again, I never noticed
any jittering when I saw the tapes.
tablesalt
Avatar wrote:
> > ADV went to the dub masters out of cheapness. They could have gone back to
> > their original masters, de-jittered them, and tossed an extra subtrack on the
> > DVD. (all for the same or less cost as it would have been to continue with the
> > DVD vol.1 method) They chose not to.
>
> This is flatly untrue on every point.
How so? Educate me!
Well, if the jittering was left in cause your method didn't work, then fine (it's the
first I heard of it); but what about the hard subs? Are you saying that the Japanese
masters are of a lower quality than the dub masters that you made from them? Also,
you're not going to convince me that doing an extra sub track is cost prohibitive;
Jubei has one and was done at the same authoring studio.
If something that could make a DVD better isn't done cause it costs a little more
money, I call it cheapness. You may call it economic sensibility, but that doesn't
make me any happier as a customer ;-)
tablesalt
Avatar
Presuming that we've moved beyond the jitter question...
Many, many things were tried to improve the picture quality for Eva 2. I
think we actually did it half a dozen times before we finally got a
version we were happy with. Trust me, if cost was an issue, we'd have
been done months sooner.
I've seen those Jubei DVDs. (Jubei-chan is great. ;p) The method works -
adequately - when you have one-word subtitles, although I would have
been happier with a better implementation. But this is -Eva-, show of so
many subtitles that people complained the first time around. It would be
a -completely- different thing to soft-subtitle Eva... it literally
could not be attempted in the same fashion.
Avatar
tablesalt
Avatar wrote:
> I've seen those Jubei DVDs. (Jubei-chan is great. ;p) The method works -
> adequately -
I disagree, but I'll grudgingly respect your opinion. ;-)
> when you have one-word subtitles, although I would have
> been happier with a better implementation. But this is -Eva-, show of so
> many subtitles that people complained the first time around. It would be
> a -completely- different thing to soft-subtitle Eva... it literally
> could not be attempted in the same fashion.
I'm no expert in DVD production, but I've seen DVD subs do a lot of things. If you see
Animeigo's Urusei Yatsura, they do subs just as clear and readable as hard subs, if you
watch Ghostbuster's silhouette commentary track, subs are increadibly versitile.
I have all of Eva subbed on VHS and I don't remember anything that dvd subs can't adequatly
mimic.
By the way. If this is a problem unique to Eva; are future ADV DVDs going to have their
signs DVD subbed?
tablesalt
John Hokanson Jr.
<7FF9A7DA45ACA836.F3F72956...@lp.airnews.net>,
Sorry to change the subject here for a sec...
What media do you use for your masters? Also, its been said that your
masters are different than the ones Gainax used for the R2 DVDs (Gainax
has the extra footage you didn't license). Are your masters slightly
worse in terms of quality, and is Matt at all interested in acquiring
the "directors cut" episodes?
Avatar
Varies, and I'm not sure that I'm allowed to say. Gotta ask. ^_^;
> Also, its been said that your
> masters are different than the ones Gainax used for the R2 DVDs (Gainax
> has the extra footage you didn't license). Are your masters slightly
> worse in terms of quality, and is Matt at all interested in acquiring
> the "directors cut" episodes?
Not having seen the Japanese masters for those, how could I compare the
two? I don't know what Gainax might have done after the fact or what. As
far as the director's cut footage, we're not getting it.
Avatar
Ryan Mathews
>Ryan Mathews wrote:
>
>> I don't want to get too involved with this thread, because I had my
>> fill of it last time. Let me just say that I agree with you 100%.
>> The text overlays were far less intrusive than hard subs. But when I
>> tried to explain that, I got the Usenet equivalent of dumb looks.
>
>We give the dumb look as we think to ourselves: "does he not know a DVD
>can produce soft subs?"
(sigh) C'mon tablesalt. The argument didn't go like that, and you know it.
Soft subs have not a damn thing to do with it. The issue is HARD SUBS vs.
text overlays. Hard subs were the standard until very recently, and fandom
NEVER COMPLAINED. ADV tried replacing the hard subs with text overlays,
and up went the howls. My point stands.
How many DVDs have used soft subs anyway? I only know of JUBEI-CHAN. I
don't count any disc on which you have to turn on the English sub
translation to read the signs. To truly count, you need to be able to turn
text translations on and off without turning on the dialogue translation.
Ryan Mathews
<91gnf0$gt1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>The "image jitter" supposedly exists in the Gainax master as well.
Oh, it does. ADV fixed it for their first DVD volume. That's my point.
Quite frankly, the sloppiness in the editing of some anime really annoys
me. Another example is KEY THE METAL IDOL. It's one of my all-time
favorite anime, but oh how I wish Viz could have fixed the jitter on the
first few episodes. They jump around enough to make me seasick, and the
clarity of DVD just makes it worse...
tablesalt
Ryan Mathews wrote:
> Soft subs have not a damn thing to do with it. The issue is HARD SUBS vs.
> text overlays. Hard subs were the standard until very recently, and fandom
> NEVER COMPLAINED.
VHS was also the standered until recently; and most DVDs, until recently, were
done as an after thought to the VHS, which resulted in the use of the VHS
masters (hence hard subs) But things change, the bar is raised, and people
expect more.
> ADV tried replacing the hard subs with text overlays,
> and up went the howls. My point stands.
I personally perfer hardsubs to overlays, but all thu' the overlay debate I
(and most others) were promoting the use of soft subs (or alt angles), the
point being that this being DVD, nothing need be permenently changed.
> How many DVDs have used soft subs anyway? I only know of JUBEI-CHAN. I
> don't count any disc on which you have to turn on the English sub
> translation to read the signs. To truly count, you need to be able to turn
> text translations on and off without turning on the dialogue translation.
AFAIK, there IS a separate sign translation track that defaults on w/ the dub.
I seem to remember Perfect Blue having the same.
Besides, just because few companies take advantage of the DVD format doesn't
mean they can't, or shouldn't.
tablesalt
Jim Lazar
"Ryan Mathews" <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:900E13FF2math...@198.99.146.18...
> yangn...@my-deja.com (John Hokanson Jr.) wrote in
> <91gnf0$gt1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>
> >The "image jitter" supposedly exists in the Gainax master as well.
>
> Oh, it does. ADV fixed it for their first DVD volume. That's my point.
> Quite frankly, the sloppiness in the editing of some anime really annoys
> me. Another example is KEY THE METAL IDOL. It's one of my all-time
> favorite anime, but oh how I wish Viz could have fixed the jitter on the
> first few episodes. They jump around enough to make me seasick, and the
> clarity of DVD just makes it worse...
True, but fixing it the way ADV tried to fix it in EVA#1 isn't the answer.
Pausing the video aroudn the cut point was a real half-assed attempt at
fixing the problem with a worse problem. :-(
I'd rather have the jitter than frozen video.
Fortuantely, with more and more shows being edited directly on computers,
this jitter should be a thing of the past.
John Hokanson Jr.
math...@ix.netcom.com (Ryan Mathews) wrote:
> yangn...@my-deja.com (John Hokanson Jr.) wrote in
> <91gnf0$gt1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>
> >The "image jitter" supposedly exists in the Gainax master as well.
>
> Oh, it does. ADV fixed it for their first DVD volume. That's my
point.
> Quite frankly, the sloppiness in the editing of some anime really
annoys
> me. Another example is KEY THE METAL IDOL. It's one of my all-time
> favorite anime, but oh how I wish Viz could have fixed the jitter on
the
> first few episodes. They jump around enough to make me seasick, and
the
> clarity of DVD just makes it worse...
To be perfectly honest Ryan, the jitter in EVA is minor. Having seen
disc 2 last night, I never would have noticed it if somebody didn't
point it out to me, cluing me in on a specific scene (where Misato and
Ritsuko are on the plane, traveling to the Jet Alone demonstration).
But then, I don't have a very high end A/V setup, so maybe it's not as
sensitive. I will say the jaggies in the first disc seemed more
noticeable than the jittering in the second.
In any event, the overlays and the jittering appear to be two separate
incidents. I wouldn't go around saying that you lost jitter control
because of the people complaining about the overlays.
And while I would definately appreciate softsubs, the problem with the
hard subs is somewhat exaggerated. You're going to end up reading text
whether your like it or not. The different is whether it's in sub form,
or if it's part of the actual animation. I'd also like to state that I
probably wouldn't mind overlays on top of Japanese text titles that ID
a certain place or thing, since these titles are "not really there" and
are for the benefit of the audience. What I object to is altering
objects such as signs that actually exist in the universe the
characters live in.
Furthermore, it has been falsely stated that the overlays were taken
out of the second disc. There are one or two overlays. The most obvious
is the paper on Gendou's desk in the beginning of episode 8. It has
also been falsely inferred that overlays always blend well in the first
disc. There are a couple of instances of overlays that look like hard
subbing in 0:1, including "Caution: Elevator 100 meters ahead" in a
*HUGE* white font which is FAR more invasive than I remember in the VHS
tapes, and totally unnecessary.
Here's the pic:
http://unitsolid.50megs.com/overlays.png
> --
> ---------- Ryan Mathews
>
> Email: math...@ix.netcom.com ICQ#: 11539925
> Fanfic archive: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~mathews/
> Read my web review column, "Last Exit Before Toll"
> on the Anime Web Turnpike http://www.anipike.com/lastexit/
> Read my dub review column, "The Dub Track"
> at http://akadot.com/ (in the "Columns" section)
>
--
Jim Lazar
"Ken Arromdee" <arro...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:91m2u8$lfa$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> In article <91lu2p$b1e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> >probably wouldn't mind overlays on top of Japanese text titles that ID
> >a certain place or thing, since these titles are "not really there" and
> >are for the benefit of the audience. What I object to is altering
> >objects such as signs that actually exist in the universe the
> >characters live in.
>
>
> This would also cover things like all that text on the screen in later
> episodes, particularly 25-26. It's not like a sign on a door or a piece
of
> paper.
Of course, they would also have to faithfully replace the japanese
characters with an english version of with the same style and appearance. A
lot of titles screens have unique backgrounds and styles for the characters
that are as much a part of the storytelling experience as the words that are
in the characters.
Bad: ADV replaced the old fashioned looking characters in Rurouin Kenshin
with high tech computer screens and they stood out like a sore thumb while
watching the OVA eps.
Good: ADV replaced the kanji intro text in Gasaraki, but the style they used
fit with the epsiodes and mood of the show and didn't jar the watcher out of
the show.
Personally, it's a jugement call if the US company does it right, so I'd
rather they left it alone and just used DVD subs to translate the onscreen
text. Only then can you see what the orignal creators intended and not what
some guy in Texas, new york, LA, etc... thinks you should see.