WWII Anime
Code Name D.
I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
others out there?
--
[ ___/\/\___ ]Code Name D.
[ _(_@ @)_ ]code_...@my-deja.com
[__\__\/__/__]Viset the Fan Fiction Underground
at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Aurora/8484
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Derek Janssen
>
> December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
> I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> others out there?
WWII Anime??
...C'mon, this's JAPAN, WWII never happened!
Derek Janssen (oh, sure there was that Hiroshima thing, but that was
because Americans weren't serene and peace-loving enough!)
dja...@ultranet.com
Jorge R. Frank
>
> December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
> I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> others out there?
Barefoot Gen.
Also, Space Battleship Yamato has some flashback scenes.
--
JRF
Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" and think one step ahead of IBM.
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <82k5j6$2nu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Code Name D.
<code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
>I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
>event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
>think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
>others out there?
Barefoot Gen comes to mind, reminding us all of another famous bombing...
THere's also Rail of the Star.
Arnold Kim
Ronald Spillman
done by 3 different directors (the first, involving a possible German
atomic bomb strike, was byYoshiaki Kawajiri); 2 others were from a
Japanese perspective (especially liked the final one). And there
was a movie based on Nakazawa Keiji's manga Hadashi no Gen
(Barefoot Gen). I have a fansub of an anime movie, called
"Who's Left Behind", which appears to be, based on just looking
at the first couple of minutes, but I have yet to view it all the
way thru ($%@## Christmas season at work ^_^)....
Bill Woodford wrote:
> In article <82k5j6$2nu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Code Name D. <code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
> >
> >I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> >event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> >think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> >others out there?
>
> The Cockpit (I dont know what the Japanese title is) was about WWII Japan.
>
> - Bill Woodford
Christopher M. Jefferson
Code Name D. wrote:
> December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
> I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> others out there?
> --
> [ ___/\/\___ ]Code Name D.
> [ _(_@ @)_ ]code_...@my-deja.com
> [__\__\/__/__]Viset the Fan Fiction Underground
> at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Aurora/8484
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Well, everyone else is pointing to the Cockpit trilogy, Kishin Corps, and
Grave of the Fireflies. True enough. I would like to see what Miyazaki
could do with the Great Pacific War. Bet that he'd do it pretty raw, sort
of like an anime version of "Private Ryan".
Be Seeing You,
Chris
Bill Woodford
Code Name D. <code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
>I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
>event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
>think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
>others out there?
The Cockpit (I dont know what the Japanese title is) was about WWII Japan.
- Bill Woodford
Chika
Code Name D. <code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
> I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> others out there?
No idea if it was released in the US, but there was a title in the UK
released by Kiseki. The Cockpit by Leiji Matsumoto contained three stories
set between August 1944 and 1945; Slipstream concerned the fate of a
disgraced German airman on one last mission, Sonic Boom Squadron is about
a pilot and a suicide bomb mission and Knight of the Iron Dragon is about
one Japanese soldier and his bike involved in the doomed defense of the
Phillipines.
(KIS 94050, 1993, subtitled PAL VHS)
There was an ADV title called Rail of the Star concerning a Japanese
family's escape from Korea around the time of the partition. That one is
probably on their site. It's fairly well done including a few shots of the
more unsavoury aspects of Japanese domination in WWII, followed by the
persecution as Japan falls to the allies, leaving Japanese civilians
vulnerable to revenge attacks, all as seen through the eyes of one young
girl who is trying to make sense of it all.
(UK release ADV(UK) VHSRS/001D, 1998, dubbed PAL VHS)
There were overtones of WWII in Kishin Corps too (Pioneer).
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... When everything is relative, even relativity loses meaning.
David Crowe
: In article <82k5j6$2nu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
: Code Name D. <code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
: > December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
: > I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
: > event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
: > think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
: > others out there?
: There were overtones of WWII in Kishin Corps too (Pioneer).
"Overtones?" It was _set_ in WWII! An alternate universe, to be sure,
but those were real events being referred to.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to find out who this Cubone guy is. Any
cute cartoon animal who wears the skull of one of his defeated enemies as
headwear is my kinda cute cartoon animal.
-Kurt Busiek on Pokemon
David Johnston
>
> Chika <mad...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> : In article <82k5j6$2nu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> : Code Name D. <code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> : > December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
> : > I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> : > event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> : > think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> : > others out there?
>
> : There were overtones of WWII in Kishin Corps too (Pioneer).
>
> "Overtones?" It was _set_ in WWII! An alternate universe, to be sure,
> but those were real events being referred to.
>
I thought it was shortly before WWII.
Erik Schultz
>December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
>
>I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
>event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
>think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
>others out there?
Huh, I don't know that Super Atragon really qualifies, seeing as how its
more about aliens living inside the earth and all...
There's an 6-part OVA series called the Dark Blue Fleet that nobody has
picked up yet.. alternate WWII history. An admiral gets blasted into 1937 or
thereabouts and tries to use his knowledge of future events to affect the
outcome of the war. Nobody's ever subbed it, too bad. I'd like to, if I
could find/afford the LDs...
David Crowe
: >
: > "Overtones?" It was _set_ in WWII! An alternate universe, to be sure,
: > but those were real events being referred to.
: I thought it was shortly before WWII.
The beginning of episode #1, yes. Time progresses over the episodes and
the last one is at the close of the war. Note Kishin Wind's new jet
engine (it was just a rocket boosted glider before) and the
module-powered A-bomb.
Edge@iinet.net.au Thomas Edge
Jorge R. Frank <jrf...@ibm-pc.org> wrote in message
news:384DA9E0...@ibm-pc.org...
> "Code Name D." wrote:
> >
> > December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
> >
> > I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> > event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> > think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> > others out there?
>
>
> Also, Space Battleship Yamato has some flashback scenes.
As does Harlock, My Youth in Arcadia, albeit while important background
material in both cases neither are using the misadventures of 1939 to 1945
as their core subject matter
regards
Tom
Rob Kelk
>
> David Crowe wrote:
> >
> > Chika <mad...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > : Code Name D. <code_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > : > December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
> >
> > : > I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> > : > event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> > : > think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> > : > others out there?
> >
> >
> > "Overtones?" It was _set_ in WWII! An alternate universe, to be sure,
> > but those were real events being referred to.
> >
>
> I thought it was shortly before WWII.
The dust jacket of my copy of "Kishin Corps" #1 says it takes place
during October 1941. WWII started in 1939. (Don't forget, the USA was
isolationist at the time, and really didn't care about WWII until the
Japanese drew them into it...)
--
Rob Kelk rob...@ottawa.com
"I'm _not_ a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> The Cockpit had 3 short stories, based on Matsumoto Leiji stories,
> done by 3 different directors (the first, involving a possible German
> atomic bomb strike, was byYoshiaki Kawajiri); 2 others were from a
> Japanese perspective (especially liked the final one). And there
> was a movie based on Nakazawa Keiji's manga Hadashi no Gen
> (Barefoot Gen). I have a fansub of an anime movie, called
> "Who's Left Behind", which appears to be, based on just looking
> at the first couple of minutes, but I have yet to view it all the
> way thru ($%@## Christmas season at work ^_^)....
>
Somewhat like Grave of the Firefiles,
particularly the effects of the war on the population,
especially from the kids' perspective.
Laters. =)
STan
----------
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|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita Lost...@optonline.net
| ( _| | U of Rochester sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/\___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
Invid Fan
<rob...@ottawa.com> wrote:
Well, if you want to be technical about it Japan wasn't in the war
until they attacked the US. Their war with China was a seporate issue
from the "world war" going on in Europe.
--
Chris Mack "You do NOT, I repeat, do NOT ask a guest in my
'Invid Fan' home to make a PILLAR OF FIRE!!"
"I asked him IF he knew how!! IF! IF! IF!!"
In...@localnet.com -Cerebus:Jaka's Story
Chika
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> > The dust jacket of my copy of "Kishin Corps" #1 says it takes place
> > during October 1941. WWII started in 1939. (Don't forget, the USA was
> > isolationist at the time, and really didn't care about WWII until the
> > Japanese drew them into it...)
> Well, if you want to be technical about it Japan wasn't in the war
> until they attacked the US. Their war with China was a seporate issue
> from the "world war" going on in Europe.
True, but Kishin Corps was not set in the US...
I was deliberately low key on Kishin because I didn't have it to hand, but
I have now dragged my copies out of their dusty abode...
It starts in Manchuria in October 1941 where Taishi Takamura is suddenly
saddled with the legacy of his dead father (killed in front of him by a
Kanto army officer) which leads him to discover the Kishin Corps. The
story involves opposition from the Kanto army, the Nazis and a third force
of alien origin. The mecha is deliberately retro (given the time) but
there are hints that the power behind the Kishin mecha has a link to the
alien foe.
(Pioneer, 1993, UK dub 4 vols, PIO 10009/10010/10013/10014 (US see site))
As I recall, although the Manchuria war was not part of WWII, the reason
behind the Pearl Harbour bombing was affected by the failing supplies in
that war which opened up the whole theatre. Having said that, by 1941,
Japan was in the war up to its hilt as a result of what it was doing in
other areas of Asia. (At least that's roughly how I remember it...)
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... LHC : Lacks Hard Currency
Avery Davies
Thomas Edge wrote:
>
> Jorge R. Frank <jrf...@ibm-pc.org> wrote in message
> news:384DA9E0...@ibm-pc.org...
> > "Code Name D." wrote:
> > >
> > > December 7th. On this day, Japan bombed Peril Harbor.
> > >
> > > I don't know if this is unrelated, or just plane tackles, but in any
> > > event, I got me to wonder about any WWII anime out there. I can only
> > > think of two examples: Grave of the Fire Flies, and Super Atragon. Any
> > > others out there?
> >
> > Barefoot Gen.
> >
> > Also, Space Battleship Yamato has some flashback scenes.
>
> As does Harlock, My Youth in Arcadia, albeit while important background
> material in both cases neither are using the misadventures of 1939 to 1945
> as their core subject matter
I thought the Gamalons(sp?) where supposed to be the Americans?
--
This is the Avery Davies within your computer.
David Johnston
>
> In article <081219991248170943%in...@localnet.com>,
> Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> > > The dust jacket of my copy of "Kishin Corps" #1 says it takes place
> > > during October 1941. WWII started in 1939. (Don't forget, the USA was
> > > isolationist at the time, and really didn't care about WWII until the
> > > Japanese drew them into it...)
>
> > Well, if you want to be technical about it Japan wasn't in the war
> > until they attacked the US. Their war with China was a seporate issue
> > from the "world war" going on in Europe.
>
> True, but Kishin Corps was not set in the US...
A little more research corrected my misapprehension. Kishin Corps starts at
the start of a version of WWII and goes until Roosevelt's death.
Lime
>Irresistible to quote Manga Max on Sakura Wars: "Just remember that every
time
>you watch the girls trash one of those nasty alien devils, it's supposed to
>be you."
At the risk of sounding argumentative, since the review was by Jonathan
Clements, it's not such a surprising quote. [It also, IMO, ignores the fact
that the cast is more multinational than UNIT ever was [Iris is French, and
IIRC Maria is Russian]. He puts a similar kind of spin on EVA and Gunbuster
as well...
--
Honto no watashi ga hirogaru
Chris Mattern
"Lime" <gb...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> Ken Arromdee wrote in message <82kqtk$grj$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
>>Irresistible to quote Manga Max on Sakura Wars: "Just remember that every
> time
>>you watch the girls trash one of those nasty alien devils, it's supposed to
>>be you."
>
>
> At the risk of sounding argumentative, since the review was by Jonathan
> Clements, it's not such a surprising quote. [It also, IMO, ignores the fact
> that the cast is more multinational than UNIT ever was [Iris is French, and
> IIRC Maria is Russian].
Yeppers. And Kohran is Chinese, of course. (Can't forget my
favorite Oobu pilot--how can you not like a cross between
Washuu-chan and Professor Steamhead?)
Chris Mattern
Ronald Spillman
"Christopher M. Jefferson" wrote:
>
>
> Well, everyone else is pointing to the Cockpit trilogy, Kishin Corps, and
> Grave of the Fireflies. True enough. I would like to see what Miyazaki
> could do with the Great Pacific War. Bet that he'd do it pretty raw, sort
> of like an anime version of "Private Ryan".
>
What I would rather see, IMO, is an anime adaptation of Shigeru
Mizuki's "The Banzai Charge". Never been reprinted here in the
US, but was mentioned in the original Manga, Manga by Fred
Schodt, along with a couple of illos.
Plus, even tho; it wasn't during the war, tho' one vignette dealt
with the forbears of Harlock and Tochiro in WWII, Arcadia
of My Youth was, in essense, an alternative retelling of the
American Occupation of Japan (tends to make all but MacArthur
look like real rats, tho' ^_^)
Christopher M. Jefferson
Ronald Spillman wrote:
The only troubling thing, imho, is that while a few, a blessed few, anime have
dealt with war as it is ("Cockpit", "Grave of the Fireflies"), all too many
anime observations of World War II get a tad too nationalistic for my taste.
Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. After all, the Japanese did fight the U.S.
during W.W. II, and a bloody race war that was. Don't believe me? Examine some
of the viruelently racist and chauvinist war propaganda put out by both sides
during the conflict.
Recently, there was a release of a naval adventure set in the 1990's called
"Silent Service". It's basically a retelling of the Battle of Midway, only this
time the Japanese fleet gets to win (well, one submarine knocks off two carrier
battle groups, but you get the point). I hated that movie, if only because it
made cardboard cutout figures out of the "enemy". The commander of the Pacific
Fleet comes across as a Mob guy, the rest of the Americans are pictured as
buffoons or worse. I know some American servicemen. The real picture is at
variance with that painted by this anime.
I have not seen "Arcadia of My Youth". However, I'm not surprised at the
continuing respect that many members of the Japanese intelligentsia have for
MacArthur. After all, this was the guy who shrewdly coopted Emperor Hirohito to
establish a shogunate. Thus, once Hirohito's blessing was secured, MacArthur
could then proceed with the land, labor, and female suffrage reforms that he
believed were vital to the creation of a modern, peaceful Japan. It is
instructive to note that upon the surrender aboard the Missouri, MacArthur
immediately proceeded to his occupation headquarters directly across from the
Imperial Palace unarmed and with a minimal escort.
Oh yeah, MacArthur's army group had the lowest casualty rates of any in either
theater of operations during that war. Compare this to the horrendous
casualties suffered by Omar Bradley's First Army (especially during the Hurtgen
Forest and the Bulge campaigns). It is not surprising that my father would tell
me that during the war he and his men referred to Bradley as "Omar the Shroud
maker".
Be Seeing You,
Chris
dor...@my-deja.com
matt...@mattern.alexandria.va.us (Chris Mattern) wrote:
> In article <82mlh7$9ng$1...@lure.pipex.net>,
> "Lime" <gb...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> > Ken Arromdee wrote in message <82kqtk$grj$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
> >>Irresistible to quote Manga Max on Sakura Wars: "Just remember that
every
> > time
> >>you watch the girls trash one of those nasty alien devils, it's
supposed to
> >>be you."
> >
> >
> > At the risk of sounding argumentative, since the review was by
Jonathan
> > Clements, it's not such a surprising quote.
Truth hurts, huh? He first pointed out the WW2 references in Gunbuster
waaaay back in Anime UK/FX. Can anyone find the original piece? I've got
Manga Max 3 with his article on the end of Evangelion (and his original
article on Evangelion and WW2 from Manga Mania 41). But he's not the
only one. In Manga Max 6 (Star Wars cover) there's a very interesting
piece by Cathy Sterling about Rail of the Star as propaganda. It also
drags in a film called 24 Eyes, which Hideaki Anno refers to in
Gunbuster. There was a piece by two other writers on Sakura Wars's
wartime origins in Manga Max 11 (Pokemon cover).
But if you really want the full skinny, I'd say Clements's piece in
Manga Mania 41 is the place to go. He points out that Hideaki Anno is *
such* a fan of a film called the Battle of Okinawa, and references it so
much in Gunbuster, that Anno was asked to write the sleeve notes for the
LD re-release of this famous warfilm. Apparently, he knows every frame.
[It also, IMO, ignores the fact
> > that the cast is more multinational than UNIT ever was [Iris is
French, and
> > IIRC Maria is Russian].
>
> Yeppers. And Kohran is Chinese, of course. (Can't forget my
> favorite Oobu pilot--how can you not like a cross between
> Washuu-chan and Professor Steamhead?)
Er... yeah. But they all speak fluent Japanese. And Kohran, as Manga Max
11 points out, is named after a wartime actress in pro-Manchurian
propaganda films.
Also, Clements mentions Deep Blue Fleet, another retelling of WW2 in his
articles for the European Sci-Fi channel website (uk.scifi.com).
Incidentally, 24 Eyes was remade as an anime by Tokyo Movie Shinsha, so
there's another one to add to the list.
doror
mt...@mailcity.com
dor...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <s4u7hdi...@news.supernews.com>,
> matt...@mattern.alexandria.va.us (Chris Mattern) wrote:
> > In article <82mlh7$9ng$1...@lure.pipex.net>,
> > "Lime" <gb...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> > > Ken Arromdee wrote in message <82kqtk$grj$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
> > >>Irresistible to quote Manga Max on Sakura Wars: "Just remember
that
> every
> > > time
> > >>you watch the girls trash one of those nasty alien devils, it's
> supposed to
> > >>be you."
> > >
> > >
> > > At the risk of sounding argumentative, since the review was by
> Jonathan
> > > Clements, it's not such a surprising quote.
>
> Truth hurts, huh? He first pointed out the WW2 references in Gunbuster
> waaaay back in Anime UK/FX.
I met him at AyaNext last month. You know that he was the UK translator
of The Cockpit (years before the US edition was released) and that he
was the one who put the BBC onto the wartime origins of Godzilla with
the Lucky Dragon incident.
Incidentally, the latest issue of Manga Max is out in the UK. There's a
review of Evangelion the manga by Lee Brimmicombe-Wood that points out
that Gainax are also putting in references to the Japanese civil war
(i.e. Yoshitsune) via Blade Runner. Now that's cool.
David Johnston
>
> In article <82mlh7$9ng$1...@lure.pipex.net>, Lime <gb...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >>Irresistible to quote Manga Max on Sakura Wars: "Just remember that every
> >time
> >>you watch the girls trash one of those nasty alien devils, it's supposed to
> >>be you."
> >At the risk of sounding argumentative, since the review was by Jonathan
> >that the cast is more multinational than UNIT ever was [Iris is French, and
> >IIRC Maria is Russian].
>
> entire human race rather than just the Japanese. But the same can be said for
> Yamato,
Except they are all Japanese. No multinational task force there, even if it
is justified by everyone else being bleedin' deceased.
yet it's very clear in that show that the main characters are supposed
> to represent the Japanese and the Gamilons are supposed to represent the
> Americans. It's just a bigger scale: Japanese->world, gaijin->aliens.
> --
> Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
>
> "Eventually all companies are replaced." --Bill Gates, October 1999
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> Oh yeah, MacArthur's army group had the lowest casualty rates of any
> in either theater of operations during that war. Compare this to the
> horrendous casualties suffered by Omar Bradley's First Army
> (especially during the Hurtgen Forest and the Bulge campaigns). It is
> not surprising that my father would tell me that during the war he and
> his men referred to Bradley as "Omar the Shroud maker".
Technically, Hodges was the 1st Army commander during the Hurtgenwald
battles and the Bulge, but he was such a nonentity that he was
essentially Bradley's XO. Of course, McArthur was a theatre commander,
not an army commander - but his army commanders (Krueger,
Echelburger(sp?)) were equally subordinated to his media personality.
Don't get me started on Bradley. I've never heard that particular
crack, but it fits. You can see the noxious traces of Bradley's
influence in the official histories. Whenever you come across sections
on units under Bradley's control, it suddenly turns into a disgusting
litany of heavy casualties, and a litany of hilltops seized. Man was
one of those horrible "Soldier's Generals", that prove their connection
with the men by killing them off in leaden frontal assaults on
ineffectually wide fronts.
McArthur had a bad reputation for politically-motivated strategy and
tactics, but his casualties were nearly an order of magnitude less
than Bradley's, and considerably lower than most other theatre or
army group commanders. Essentially, he got men killed for political
points - but McArthur's political motivations killed far fewer men than
Nimitz' or Bradley's "just following orders".
--
Mitch Hagmaier
OTAKON 2000 Con Chair
pen...@my-deja.com
Thus, once Hirohito's blessing was secured,
MacArthur
> could then proceed with the land, labor, and female suffrage reforms
that he
> believed were vital to the creation of a modern, peaceful Japan.
Easy on the hero worship. Its pretty clear to historians that MacArthur
started out with a peaceful Japan in mind but then proceeded to crush
labour unions and promote the creation of a new Japanese "army" when
things were not going his way. He made Japan a pawn in the USA's cold
war games in Asia and this can hardly be considered peaceful. Many
Japanese intellectuals, especially on the left, share this view.
that during the war he and his men referred to Bradley as "Omar the
Shroud
> maker".
MacArthur had a nickname as well - "Dugout Doug." During the fall of the
Phillipines, he hid in a dugout while his men died and fled when things
got really bad. There is even a rumour that he took his favourite
refrigirator with him when he left instead of saving one of his men from
4 years in a Japanese POW camp (or slave labour).
vanfanel
"Christopher M. Jefferson" <Major_K...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Re: "Silent Service"
> I hated that movie, if only because it made cardboard cutout
> figures out of the "enemy". The commander of the Pacific Fleet comes
> across as a Mob guy, the rest of the Americans are pictured as
> buffoons or worse. I know some American servicemen. The real picture
> is at variance with that painted by this anime.
Did you see it dubbed or subtitled? I rented that movie dubbed and
actually liked it enough to buy the sub (-titled version, not -marine)
when I finally found it at a con. I thought most of the Americans were
pretty likable in the dub version (though I'm remembering this from a
long time ago, and might not think so if I saw it again). However, I
was a bit irked when I heard the original Japanese performances--they
did either sound like thugs or morons. Strange the difference tone-of-
voice can make.
--Daniel
whose opinions not representative of any corporations I may write for
Demian Phillips
>Christopher M. Jefferson wrote:
>>
>> Oh yeah, MacArthur's army group had the lowest casualty rates of any
>> in either theater of operations during that war. Compare this to the
>> horrendous casualties suffered by Omar Bradley's First Army
>> (especially during the Hurtgen Forest and the Bulge campaigns). It is
>> not surprising that my father would tell me that during the war he and
>> his men referred to Bradley as "Omar the Shroud maker".
>
>Technically, Hodges was the 1st Army commander during the Hurtgenwald
>battles and the Bulge, but he was such a nonentity that he was
>essentially Bradley's XO. Of course, McArthur was a theatre commander,
>not an army commander - but his army commanders (Krueger,
>Echelburger(sp?)) were equally subordinated to his media personality.
>Don't get me started on Bradley. I've never heard that particular
>crack, but it fits. You can see the noxious traces of Bradley's
>influence in the official histories. Whenever you come across sections
>on units under Bradley's control, it suddenly turns into a disgusting
>litany of heavy casualties, and a litany of hilltops seized. Man was
>one of those horrible "Soldier's Generals", that prove their connection
>with the men by killing them off in leaden frontal assaults on
>ineffectually wide fronts.
Hey. Now I see where some of the Zap Branagan character comes from in
futurama. Thanks.
-
^_^
Demian Phillips
Invid Fan
<kyo...@home.com> wrote:
I haven't dug into bios of Bradley much, but what you discribe sounds a
little like Grant in the Civil War. However, Grant's tactics were
needed at the time regardless of the losses to his army. Perhapse the
same was true in Europe.
David Johnston
>
> Thus, once Hirohito's blessing was secured,
> MacArthur
> > could then proceed with the land, labor, and female suffrage reforms
> that he
> > believed were vital to the creation of a modern, peaceful Japan.
>
> Easy on the hero worship. Its pretty clear to historians that MacArthur
> started out with a peaceful Japan in mind but then proceeded to crush
> labour unions and promote the creation of a new Japanese "army" when
> things were not going his way. He made Japan a pawn in the USA's cold
> war games in Asia and this can hardly be considered peaceful. Many
> Japanese intellectuals, especially on the left, share this view.
On the other hand there is no particularly good reason why
a democratic non-hostile Japan should be a defenseless Japan.
sect...@bellsouth.net
trying to flank Lee (there were exceptions, Cold Harbor being the most
notorious)! Bradley just kept throwing guys at the Germans.
As for MacArthur, the very fact that he avoided trying to take Rabaul, with
it's tens of thousands of occupying Imperial Army troops, and went around it
speaks volumes for his grasp of strategy.
Be Seeing You,
Chris
sect...@bellsouth.net
vanfanel wrote:
> In article <384FBDD3...@hotmail.com>,
> "Christopher M. Jefferson" <Major_K...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Re: "Silent Service"
>
> > I hated that movie, if only because it made cardboard cutout
> > figures out of the "enemy". The commander of the Pacific Fleet comes
> > across as a Mob guy, the rest of the Americans are pictured as
> > buffoons or worse. I know some American servicemen. The real picture
> > is at variance with that painted by this anime.
>
> Did you see it dubbed or subtitled? I rented that movie dubbed and
> actually liked it enough to buy the sub (-titled version, not -marine)
> when I finally found it at a con.
I saw it dubbed. Jeez! The admiral looked like Don Corleone, and all of
our sub commanders look like cops at the Dunkin' Donuts. The movie was a
crock from beginning to end. However, wonderful naval animation.
> I thought most of the Americans were
> pretty likable in the dub version (though I'm remembering this from a
> long time ago, and might not think so if I saw it again). However, I
> was a bit irked when I heard the original Japanese performances--they
> did either sound like thugs or morons. Strange the difference tone-of-
> voice can make.
Ah, but "Silent Service" was made for a Japanese audience (okay, I'm
stating the obvious here). Think of this as the anime equivalent of a
Rambo movie, made by people who claim to know better, but apparently
don't.
Be Seeing You,
Chris
sect...@bellsouth.net
pen...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Thus, once Hirohito's blessing was secured,
> MacArthur
> > could then proceed with the land, labor, and female suffrage reforms
> that he
> > believed were vital to the creation of a modern, peaceful Japan.
>
> Easy on the hero worship. Its pretty clear to historians that MacArthur
> started out with a peaceful Japan in mind but then proceeded to crush
> labour unions and promote the creation of a new Japanese "army" when
> things were not going his way.
The labor unions were created. Women were given the vote. These are facts.
The creation of the Self Defense Force is also a fact. However, it was also
a big joke.
> He made Japan a pawn in the USA's cold
> war games in Asia and this can hardly be considered peaceful.
Last time I checked, Japan hasn't gone to war with anyone since 1945. Pretty
good for government work.
> Many
> Japanese intellectuals, especially on the left, share this view.
In light of Chinese and Soviet designs on Korea in 1950, I'm not surprised,
nor do I argue, with MacArthur's decision to allow Japan to serve as an
armaments depot for the U.S. expeditionary forces in Korea. As for the left
intelligentsia of Japan, it was rather easy to oppose the United States, as
long as the Americans hung around to keep the Soviets and the Chinese at bay
for all those years of the cold war.
>
>
> that during the war he and his men referred to Bradley as "Omar the
> Shroud
> > maker".
>
> MacArthur had a nickname as well - "Dugout Doug." During the fall of the
> Phillipines, he hid in a dugout while his men died and fled when things
> got really bad. There is even a rumour that he took his favourite
> refrigirator with him when he left instead of saving one of his men from
> 4 years in a Japanese POW camp (or slave labour).
Corregidor was his headquarters tunnel complex from which he commanded his
forlorn army as it withdrew from all over the Phillipines.
I would like to see you substantiate that, instead of depending on rumor.
Sadly, you are not aware that Roosevelt ordered MacArthur to leave
Corregidor so as to set up a defensive line in the island chain north of
Australia. Or perhaps MacArthur should have stayed behind and been captured
by the Japanese? Not a salutary result, and one that probably would have
lengthened the war.
Be Seeing You,
Chris
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> I haven't dug into bios of Bradley much, but what you discribe sounds
> a little like Grant in the Civil War. However, Grant's tactics were
> needed at the time regardless of the losses to his army. Perhapse the
> same was true in Europe.
>
That's essentially unfair to Grant, who was capable of tactical flair
and decent generalship. A better comparison would between Meade and
Bradley. Most of the worst excesses of the 40 Days and the Petersburg
siege were more clearly Meade's responsibility. Meade was the
commanding general of the Army of the Potomac, not Grant. Grant was
remorseless, but he wasn't a hypocrite, like Bradley.
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
>
> MacArthur had a nickname as well - "Dugout Doug." During the fall of
> the Phillipines, he hid in a dugout while his men died and fled when
> things got really bad. There is even a rumour that he took his
> favourite refrigirator with him when he left instead of saving one of
> his men from 4 years in a Japanese POW camp (or slave labour).
That sounds like the worst kind of interested calumny. McArthur was
personally brave to the point of insanity. He had a nasty habit of
wafting into amphibious beach-heads before they were secured.
Edge@iinet.net.au Thomas Edge
<sect...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3851A665...@bellsouth.net...
>
>
> vanfanel wrote:
>
> > In article <384FBDD3...@hotmail.com>,
> > "Christopher M. Jefferson" <Major_K...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Re: "Silent Service"
> Ah, but "Silent Service" was made for a Japanese audience (okay, I'm
> stating the obvious here). Think of this as the anime equivalent of a
> Rambo movie, made by people who claim to know better, but apparently
> don't.
>
It should be remembered that even in Japan this one (for the manga IIRC)
caused sufficient controversy to be mentioned in the Diet.
I actually liked it after a fashion as I saw it more as an equivalent of
Hunt for Red October than anything although some of the American steryotypes
were pretty *ummm* unique.
However for REALLY bad Ugly American steryotypes go no further than the
second volume of Airbats (with the Thunderbirds ep) very ugly, mind you I
never thought that the leads in that show deserved to be wearing their
uniforms either (what was the JASDF thinking when they sanction their name
being attached to this I'll never know)
regards
Tom
Invid Fan
Ed...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> <sect...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3851A665...@bellsouth.net...
> >
> >
> > vanfanel wrote:
> >
> > > In article <384FBDD3...@hotmail.com>,
> > > "Christopher M. Jefferson" <Major_K...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Re: "Silent Service"
> <snip>
>
> > Ah, but "Silent Service" was made for a Japanese audience (okay, I'm
> > stating the obvious here). Think of this as the anime equivalent of a
> > Rambo movie, made by people who claim to know better, but apparently
> > don't.
> >
>
> It should be remembered that even in Japan this one (for the manga IIRC)
> caused sufficient controversy to be mentioned in the Diet.
>
> I actually liked it after a fashion as I saw it more as an equivalent of
> Hunt for Red October than anything although some of the American steryotypes
> were pretty *ummm* unique.
>
The one part I liked was when the President pulled out the contingency
plan to re-occupy Japan. You KNOW we actualy have one somewhere ^_^
Chris Mattern
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> writes:
>
> The one part I liked was when the President pulled out the contingency
> plan to re-occupy Japan. You KNOW we actualy have one somewhere ^_^
>
it's better to have contingency plan and not need it than to need a
contingency plan and not have it, but also because drawing up such
contingency plans is favorite exercise at the various command schools.
This has been a fact of military life for a long, long time and is
true of militaries all over the world.
Chris Mattern
Galen Musbach
I remember a mid-watch where we plotted to take over the ship-
-just to stay awake.
-Galen
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
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Code Name D.
> plan to re-occupy Japan. You KNOW we actualy have one somewhere ^_^
>
> Chris Mack "You do NOT, I repeat, do NOT ask a guest
in my
> 'Invid Fan' home to make a PILLAR OF FIRE!!"
> "I asked him IF he knew how!! IF! IF!
IF!!"
> In...@localnet.com -Cerebus:Jaka's Story
>
to senescent computers, and campaign finance reform. (Or at least,
that was where I saw it last any way.)
--
[ ___/\/\___ ]Code Name D.
[ _(_@ @)_ ]code_...@my-deja.com
[__\__\/__/__]Viset the Fan Fiction Underground
at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Aurora/8484
sect...@bellsouth.net
Charles M. Hagmaier wrote:
Indeed, he was awarded the Medal of Honor by Pershing when he was commander
of the 42nd "Rainbow" Infantry Division. In the Pacific, he was shot at
several times by the Japanese. He walked into a firefight once. Everyone
knew who he was (wearing glasses and corncob pipe, of course). But they
just didn't hit him.
It is also interesting to note that he violently opposed any participation
by the European theater commanders such as Bradley and Hodges in the
projected operation DOWNFALL (the code name for the invasion of the Home
Islands). He thought that they threw their men away needlessly. He was
right, of course.
Be Seeing You,
Chris
Chika
wrote:
> It is also interesting to note that he violently opposed any
> participation by the European theater commanders such as Bradley and
> Hodges in the projected operation DOWNFALL (the code name for the
> invasion of the Home Islands). He thought that they threw their men away
> needlessly. He was right, of course.
Now that would make interesting reading if you tried saying that to anyone
that was actually there from said allies. Especially the ones that
currently are trying their utmost to get a decent degree of damages from
the Japanese after their negotiating rights were thrown away by the
governments of the day. It's one of the biggest problems about being an
anime fan over here, because there are a lot of very bitter old men
involved in the Japanese end of the war (including the bits that the US
never got involved with at all) who, nearly 60 years later, STILL have a
bitter hatred toward the Japanese nation, no matter what I might say in
mitigation of the case (like, for example, how can you blame the current
status quo for something that their fathers did, etc.)
Mind you, I take the whole thing with a large pinch of salt, since I get a
different story depending on the nation (or even the person) telling the
story.
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... I tried snorting coke...and almost DROWNED
sect...@bellsouth.net
Chika wrote:
> In article <385517AB...@bellsouth.net>, <sect...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> > It is also interesting to note that he violently opposed any
> > participation by the European theater commanders such as Bradley and
> > Hodges in the projected operation DOWNFALL (the code name for the
> > invasion of the Home Islands). He thought that they threw their men away
> > needlessly. He was right, of course.
>
> Now that would make interesting reading if you tried saying that to anyone
> that was actually there from said allies. Especially the ones that
> currently are trying their utmost to get a decent degree of damages from
> the Japanese after their negotiating rights were thrown away by the
> governments of the day.
Quite frankly, I do not understand your point here. I was speaking about
MacArthur's attitude towards the ETO commanders (such as Bradley and Mark
Clark) who pulled off such brilliant maneuvers as Heurtgen Forest and Anzio.
MacArthur wanted to get to Tokyo with as few Allied dead as possible.
> It's one of the biggest problems about being an
> anime fan over here, because there are a lot of very bitter old men
> involved in the Japanese end of the war (including the bits that the US
> never got involved with at all) who, nearly 60 years later, STILL have a
> bitter hatred toward the Japanese nation, no matter what I might say in
> mitigation of the case (like, for example, how can you blame the current
> status quo for something that their fathers did, etc.)
The whole Burma war was a very bloody and ruthlessly fought thing. People who
are anime fans have absolutely no idea how inventive and bloody-minded the
average soldier in that theater had to be, especially in the Imperial Army.
The lower the ammunition ran, the more desperate they became. Basically, it
became a "no quarter, none asked" kind of war. It should come as no surprise
that Lord Mountbatten insisted in his will that no Japanese officials of any
kind attend his funeral.
What anime we see concerning the war comes from the Japanese perspective,
which should surprise no one. It would be refreshing to see a Japanese
director do a treatment of the war from both sides, but that would probably
not sell that many tickets and picture books. So, what passes for explanations
of the Second World War comes back down to the simplistic Japanese/Gaijin
formula, which explains very little.
However, it does make for a good Rambo movie.
>
>
> Mind you, I take the whole thing with a large pinch of salt, since I get a
> different story depending on the nation (or even the person) telling the
> story.
Sure. Just ask anyone who had relatives in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. You'll come
away thinking that the war began on the sixth of August, 1945. Americans think
that the sun rises (so to speak) with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of course,
if it happened before June 22, 1941, any Russian will tell you that it didn't
matter. The Brits, of course, had the honor of going to war against Hitler
first and holding out for two years. That's a debt which is rather hard to
repay, btw..
Still and all, my father could never understand why you guys would break for
tea at 4:30 in the afternoon in the middle of an artillery fire support
mission. He suspected that it was a strictly observed tradition, as long as
there were no Germans about.
Be Seeing You,
Chris
Chika
wrote:
> > Mind you, I take the whole thing with a large pinch of salt, since I
> > get a different story depending on the nation (or even the person)
> > telling the story.
> Sure. Just ask anyone who had relatives in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. You'll
> come away thinking that the war began on the sixth of August, 1945.
> Americans think that the sun rises (so to speak) with the attack on
> Pearl Harbor. Of course, if it happened before June 22, 1941, any
> Russian will tell you that it didn't matter. The Brits, of course, had
> the honor of going to war against Hitler first and holding out for two
> years. That's a debt which is rather hard to repay, btw..
Exactly. As more folk recount their stories, I get the feeling that no
single person has a totally objective view of the war. From the soldiers'
point of view, it can only be personal. From a general's point of view, it
can still be open to interpretation, and the thing about World Wars was
that uninvolved bystanders tended to get shot or at least were kept away
from it all, so an overall objective view becomes difficult. Even now
there are some secrets concerning all that went on that HMG still won't
release. As for the 39 start, it has generally been observed that if the
UK had not been so heavily into the idea of appeasing Hitler during his
rise in the 30's, the war would have probably taken a different turn, or
it might not even have happened. Certainly Hitler would have had to
rethink his initial strategy.
> Still and all, my father could never understand why you guys would break
> for tea at 4:30 in the afternoon in the middle of an artillery fire
> support mission. He suspected that it was a strictly observed tradition,
> as long as there were no Germans about.
A myth, that. If you get involved in the UK armed forces, you'd know that
ANY time is a good excuse for a tea break! :)
--
/\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... Dessert? I'll take a piece of cherry ã.
David Johnston
> > It's one of the biggest problems about being an
> > anime fan over here, because there are a lot of very bitter old men
> > involved in the Japanese end of the war (including the bits that the US
> > never got involved with at all) who, nearly 60 years later, STILL have a
> > bitter hatred toward the Japanese nation, no matter what I might say in
> > mitigation of the case (like, for example, how can you blame the current
> > status quo for something that their fathers did, etc.)
>
> The whole Burma war was a very bloody and ruthlessly fought thing. People who
> are anime fans have absolutely no idea how inventive and bloody-minded the
> average soldier in that theater had to be, especially in the Imperial Army.
> The lower the ammunition ran, the more desperate they became. Basically, it
> became a "no quarter, none asked" kind of war. It should come as no surprise
> that Lord Mountbatten insisted in his will that no Japanese officials of any
> kind attend his funeral.
>
> What anime we see concerning the war comes from the Japanese perspective,
> which should surprise no one. It would be refreshing to see a Japanese
> director do a treatment of the war from both sides, but that would probably
> not sell that many tickets and picture books. So, what passes for explanations
> of the Second World War comes back down to the simplistic Japanese/Gaijin
> formula, which explains very little.
Oh anime has commented on the Second World War in its own way. There's
a reason why high ranking military officials tend to run the gamut from
idiots to maniacs in anime.
>
> However, it does make for a good Rambo movie.
>
> >
> >
> > Mind you, I take the whole thing with a large pinch of salt, since I get a
> > different story depending on the nation (or even the person) telling the
> > story.
>
> Sure. Just ask anyone who had relatives in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. You'll come
> away thinking that the war began on the sixth of August, 1945. Americans think
> that the sun rises (so to speak) with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of course,
> if it happened before June 22, 1941, any Russian will tell you that it didn't
> matter. The Brits, of course, had the honor of going to war against Hitler
> first and holding out for two years. That's a debt which is rather hard to
> repay, btw..
>
> Still and all, my father could never understand why you guys would break for
> tea at 4:30 in the afternoon in the middle of an artillery fire support
> mission. He suspected that it was a strictly observed tradition, as long as
> there were no Germans about.
>
> Be Seeing You,
>
> Chris
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > /\ Chika - mad...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
> > //\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
> > / \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
> >
Duke Pennyworth
>the Japanese after their negotiating rights were thrown away by the
>anime fan over here, because there are a lot of very bitter old men
>involved in the Japanese end of the war (including the bits that the US
>never got involved with at all) who, nearly 60 years later, STILL have a
>bitter hatred toward the Japanese nation, no matter what I might say in
>mitigation of the case (like, for example, how can you blame the current
>status quo for something that their fathers did, etc.)
No one is blaming the current generation for what their fathers did -- except
perhaps for this current generation's all too blase Alfred E. Neuman-esque
attitude: "what, me sorry?" I think you'd be a "biterr old man" too if you were
subjected to medical experiments, if your mum was an Imperial Army whore, if
your dad got his head lobbed off for no reason other than to terrorize the
population at large...etc., etc., etc.
To paraphrase Lu Xun: debts must be repaid, and blood debts carry blood
interest...the longer the forestallment, the greater the debt.
Tenchi won't save 'em.
The J*ps should own up to their national shame like the Germans did. However,
you cannot forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness -- indeed, denies
there ever was a misdeed!
Duke Pennyworth
>a reason why high ranking military officials tend to run the gamut from
>idiots to maniacs in anime.
The problem with this is that it excuses everyone else by holding up a few
"madmen" responsible.
When, of course, the truth is that, for various reasons, the populace at large
was very supportive of the war effort.
It's Hannah Arendt's "banality of evil" thesis.
What's truly frightening is that most perfectly ordinary and otherwise decent
people were involved.
Duke Pennyworth
>> war games in Asia and this can hardly be considered peaceful.
>
>Last time I checked, Japan hasn't gone to war with anyone since 1945. Pretty
>good for government work.
There's a fable of Aesop's in which a trumpeteer captured after battle pleads
for his life by pointing out that he'd not actually lifted a sword against his
captors.
"Ah," noted the Captain of the Guard," but did you not inspire others to? And
if we slay noble men of arms upon the field of honor, shall we pardon cowards
who would march others to their deaths from the safety of the sidelines?"
Kinda like bushido, there.
Japan fulfilled the support role in the Asian theater of operations during the
Cold War. As anyone who's ever been combat arms in the army will tell you --
it's the rear that's the real target! So Japan passed the guns and ammo along
-- indeed, PM Honda had often acknowledged the role the Korean and Vietnam wars
played in revitalizing their economy, not to mention the Asian Mashall Plan (I
forget its exact name presently).
BTW, anyone else felt Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" might be something of a Cold
War allegory? You know, bandits=commies, farmers=Japs, Samurai=Americans. At
the end, it is the farmers who ultimately benefit; today, while the U.S. dashes
madly about the world, others just go on "livin' large"...etc.
Derek Janssen
>
> >>
...No, I don't really have a response here:
I just felt sorry for ol' Dukie, with him just answering and answering
his own posts over and over, because no one else would--
--<sigh> I know...But I guess it's just Christmas and all:
He deserves to dream at least once.
Derek Janssen (and, "once" having now been completed...)
dja...@ultranet.com
Duke Pennyworth
So you're trolling then. This is what you've been doing all along.
Tell me, have you gone native? Do you like anime so much that for you Japanese
can do no wrong, and thus any crticism of their history, culture, etc., is
justified by personal attacks on the messenger?
>I just felt sorry for ol' Dukie, with him just answering and answering
>his own posts over and over, because no one else would--
How am I answering my own posts?? You on the other hand cannot let me be,
though you profess to be smug in your self-righteousness.
Charity begins at home. I suggest you "mind the log in thine own eye," brother
(as The Good Man said), ere you suggest I "cast out the speck" in mine.
Yeah. furry xmus, troll.
chika
wrongly, and has never been known to troll.
Fact: Duke Pennyworth is an unknown who has obviously got hangups about
the last world war. All that is known about him is contained in a couple
of threads plus one post elsewhere that states that he tried
unsuccessfully to troll a related group.
The above are clearly distinguisable by anyone with a regular interest in
this group.
Now I don't always agree with Derek, or with anyone else here. Goodness
knows, I have a right to my own opinions! So, indeed, does Duke and Derek.
However when I see accusations of "troll" being flung backwards and
forwards, I tend to take a broad look over both post sets to see what is
happening, and in this case, this is what I see.
Duke is an embittered person whose view of anime, in particular the titles
concerning the period around the war, is very narrow indeed. This is not
totally his fault since there is the residual effect of wartime propaganda
to consider, even this far down the line. While to a degree he is correct
in giving some degree of blame to the Japanese people, he fails to
acknowledge that the very titles that he is slating actually back up the
message that should be very obvious; War is bad (m'kay?) and no one
escapes unharmed. These titles do not depict war itself, they depict the
effects of war on people, and if he would stop for a moment and actually
watch them, he would see that far from condoning the Japanese army or
condemning the Allies, they do neither and merely concentrate on ordinary
people caught in the crossfire.
Derek's only real crime is that he has made himself a target for one of
the most basic of trolling techniques. I'm not going to criticise him for
that since I've been caught out doing that myself before. As for me, my
biggest crime here is this post, which is a large lunch for a troll. I am
therefore going to add Duke to my killfile and have done with it.
I just have one final hint for Derek.... look at Duke's domain and draw your
own conclusions! ^_^
Derek Janssen
>
> I just have one final hint for Derek.... look at Duke's domain and draw your
> own conclusions! ^_^
Draw 'em?--You can go over to alt.video.dvd and stroll through the whole
damn Louvre!...
Just wanted to check what Stage he was coming in at:
Obviously, he's a wet-behind-the-ears Gaza-lyte (talk about the blind
leading the blind...), who fell for most of G's serioius-denial tall
tales about his days on the group hook, line and sinker--
Like I said, he's pretty much at the "But I'm not a troll, I'm just a
mysterious, controversial fellow!" Stage 4, now:
The lame "is this anime?" Stage 1 should have been the tipoff, the Stage
2 was so bonehead-clumsy it lasted about three seconds, and as for the
"laughingstock" Stage 3, well...there was never really much fun in
laughing off his posts, they were just kind of amateurish and sad,
really--Just feels like kind of a waste of time tearing 'em apart.
So, basically, we lock him back for another week in the Box, and see
whether he *really* considers that some kind of status symbol--
For the first couple days, maybe, after that...
Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com
chika
Derek Janssen <dja...@ultranet.com> wrote:
> chika wrote:
> >
> > I just have one final hint for Derek.... look at Duke's domain and draw your
> > own conclusions! ^_^
> Draw 'em?--You can go over to alt.video.dvd and stroll through the whole
> damn Louvre!...
Sounds lovely...
> Like I said, he's pretty much at the "But I'm not a troll, I'm just a
> mysterious, controversial fellow!" Stage 4, now:
> The lame "is this anime?" Stage 1 should have been the tipoff, the Stage
> 2 was so bonehead-clumsy it lasted about three seconds, and as for the
> "laughingstock" Stage 3, well...there was never really much fun in
> laughing off his posts, they were just kind of amateurish and sad,
> really--Just feels like kind of a waste of time tearing 'em apart.
That's the problem. If the stuff I have read is anything to go by, he has
a set idea about the whole subject and arguing the toss won't get us
anywhere. He honestly believes the bullshit he is writing, and feels that
he will score brownie points by posting it. If he was worth a laugh, he
would have evaded killfiling, at least for a while (even G didn't make it
in there so quickly!)
> So, basically, we lock him back for another week in the Box, and see
> whether he *really* considers that some kind of status symbol--
> For the first couple days, maybe, after that...
My killfile is like the fabled Roach Motel. Trolls check in, they DON'T
check out! ^_^
--
/\ Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... Syntax is another name for conscience money.
Duke Pennyworth
>Fact: Derek Janssen has contributed much to this group, rightly or
>wrongly, and has never been known to troll.
So what do you call a pattern of personal attacks w/o any info on the subject
of the thread itself? I criticized war anime; he attacked me personally.
Sounds like a troll to me. Or are you so used to the primary colors of anime
that things must be blatantly B&W for you to perceive a distinction?
>Fact: Duke Pennyworth is an unknown who has obviously got hangups about
>the last world war. All that is known about him is
How do I have a hang-up? THIS is TROLLING: make unsubstantiated accusations.
contained in a couple
>of threads plus one post elsewhere that states that he tried
>unsuccessfully to troll a related group.
Say whatever you want...I have yet to see any proof of trolling on my part. Why
don't you cite specific examples instead of this litany of patently baseless
accusations.
>The above are clearly distinguisable by anyone with a regular interest in
>this group.
I don't fault you for being impartial to what's-his-face, but you're
disingenuous in trying to sound reasonable w/o referring to ANY specific
examples.
Gross generalizations are the tactics of trolls.
>Now I don't always agree with Derek, or with anyone else here. Goodness
>knows, I have a right to my own opinions! So, indeed, does Duke and Derek.
>However when I see accusations of "troll" being flung backwards and
>forwards, I tend to take a broad look over both post sets to see what is
>happening, and in this case, this is what I see.
The funny thing is, you've still to produce any evidence for what you see!
Have I resorted to name-calling? This in itself tells you who is trolling.
>Duke is an embittered person whose view of anime, in particular the titles
>concerning the period around the war, is very narrow indeed. This is not
And just how is it narrow? Again, your claims are groundless by default b/c you
give no reasons.
Of course, I know; you're preaching to the converted.
>totally his fault since there is the residual effect of wartime propaganda
>to consider, even this far down the line. While to a degree he is correct
>in giving some degree of blame to the Japanese people, he fails to
>acknowledge that the very titles that he is slating actually back up the
>message that should be very obvious; War is bad (m'kay?) and no one
>escapes unharmed. These titles do not depict war
Please re-read my post if you're serious. I have anticipated these very points
by stating that such general fuzzy "messages" like "war is bad for all," etc.,
are so general they can be applied to ANY war. What's overlooked -- AGAIN -- is
how the great majority of J*ps supported THAT PARTICULAR war, heart and soul.
And given that they started that war and waged it viciously only to lose it
bitterly, we have this self-pitying sub-genre of anime which serves to
collectively exhonerate the J*p nation even while their government and most of
the populace do not even consider to have committed any wrong!
Just imagine if a German cartoon or German film dealing with WW II focused on
the suffering of the poor civilians w/o any hint of the why and wherefore of it
all specific to the German role in starting the war, etc.
BTW, the oft-used and worn-out excuse of there being a distinction between
civilian and military is not a good one: that's the whole point of a facist
society, where there is no civilian/military dichotomy!
itself, they depict the
>effects of war on people, and if he would stop for a moment and actually
>watch them, he would see that far from condoning the Japanese army or
>condemning the Allies, they do neither and merely concentrate on ordinary
>people caught in the crossfire.
I've said I've watched them. I may not recall specific scenes, etc., but I've
seen them all at least once. Grave of the Fireflies I actually own, and have
viewed often. But of course, you will simply declare me ignorant no matter what
I say...if I'm that untrustworthy, why do bother???
And again, you beg the question: why were these people suffering so? Is it
really a cross-fire in which they were caught, such as you explain, or, more
appropriately, a RETURN VOLLEY?
You prove just how successful J*p revisionism is through anime. The same
phenomenon can be observed in the popularity of the Western (cowboys & Indians)
genre, where systemic genocide becomes the founding myth of nation-building.
With these anime titles, the founding myth of poor J*p suffering serves to some
degree the nation-building purposes of the present-day J*p government: we've
suffered, we must be pure, see how peaceful we are, we're the good guys! Unca
Sam sez so!
>Derek's only real crime is that he has made himself a target for one of
>the most basic of trolling techniques. I'm not going to
You're obviously speaking of me, but again you fail to define what trolling
techinque I practice, whereas I've pointed out here and elsewhere exactly what
sort of a smear campaign has been waged against me.
Let's be honest: y'all are p.o.'d simply b/c I, this newcomer, have the
audacity to criticize your celluloid "Shinto gods."
criticise him for
>that since I've been caught out doing that myself before. As for me, my
>biggest crime here is this post, which is a large lunch for a troll. I am
Please don't flatter yourself. If there's ever a time to quit, it's while
you're behind.
>therefore going to add Duke to my killfile and have done with it.
Please killfile me and leave me alone. I've asked this of you people so often;
why do you insist on insulting me and then proclaiming, like petulent kids,
"I'm not playing with you anymore! So there! Bleh!"
You think I'm heart-broken to be killfiled? So why do you proclaim so proudly?
Is it any accomplsihment to flame a troll, if that's what I really am? If
there's a nut muttering curses at the world, do you think you're giving a good
account of yourself by spending half an hour reproaching him?
All the same, I'm glad to have helped raise your self-esteem a bit.
>I just have one final hint for Derek.... look at Duke's domain and draw your
>own conclusions! ^_^
Classic troll tactic: make fun of a person's name, make fun of his ISP, etc.
(BTW, I'm on a three month free trial -- smarter than having to pay.)
You've just compromised yourself again.
Admit it -- you're so enamored of anime you just can't acknowledge what I say.
Part of the problem appears to be your lack of training in Socratic debate;
part of it resides in your smug, see-no-evil attitude towards yourself and
yours.
Duke Pennyworth
Isn't this lovely, you two scratching each others' asses.
Oh, alt.video.dvd you say? Yes, I HATE FAGS and I ain't sorry for it. You want
to make that an issue here too? Then why bring it up constantly?
Slow news day on this NG, hmm?
Demian Phillips
The germans technically didn't start any war.
-
^_^
Demian Phillips
Demian Phillips
>
>Isn't this lovely, you two scratching each others' asses.
>
>Oh, alt.video.dvd you say? Yes, I HATE FAGS and I ain't sorry for it. You want
>to make that an issue here too? Then why bring it up constantly?
>
Gonna post another long story about how a gay person in your past may
have made you feel uncomfortable?
Did a homosexual kill your parents, rape your dog?
-
^_^
Demian Phillips
Chika
Demian Phillips <dem...@cmhcsys.com> wrote:
> dukepen...@asshole.on.line.com (Duke Pennyworth) wrote:
>> [Nothing of real note, i guess, hence the <snip>]
> The germans technically didn't start any war.
Well, that is a matter of political perspective. As far as the first war
was concerned, then I might blame the declining Austrian Empire who
enlisted the Germans then let the whole thing get out of hand, but then
that is but one way of looking at it. As far as the second war was
concerned, it was quite obvious which way things were going and it was
only the fact that the folk with most influence in the region at that time
(the UK in other words) was unwilling to do anything but appease Hitler
during his rise, even when he went as far as breaking armistice
conditions, that things went as far as they did. However, he was warned
not to invade Poland, which he subsequently did not thinking that the UK
would act, that kicked the whole thing into action. So you could argue
that the UK started the actual conflict by issuing the declaration of war
(Chamberlain, 1939), or you could argue that Hitler effectively triggered
the war by ignoring warnings based on his annexing of countries in
defiance of treaties, at least one of which he was a direct signatory of.
And before anyone says "Ah, but the US didn't get involved until '41 and
Pearl Harbour", bear in mind that with the UK's appeasement effectively
leading to disarmament in the years leading up to the war, they had to get
their weapons from somewhere! When the first troops headed for the front,
some of them bore arms dating back to the previous conflict!! Once the
conflict was well in, the US effectively became the quartermaster of the
allied attack, more so when the US officially joined the conflict.
I guess the actual moral here is that it takes more than one country to
start a war, and it isn't so easy to keep your hands clean once it starts.
I was going to go on for quite a bit longer, but i'll leave it there for
now...
--
/\ Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... Hold on - wait, maybe the answer's looking for you.
Duke Pennyworth
-------
I'm sending this direct to you instead of r.a.a.m because this is the sort of
issue
where tempers tend to run a bit high.
-------
[snip]
-------
So:
Good idea. I've recently taken a couple of deep breaths, as it were, but am
ready to return to the fray if need be. It's the least I can do, to, since the
issue's been raised already, "remember Nanjing" and co. where no one else would
on r.a.a.m.
I didn't let politics get in the way of appreciating otherwise fine anime, and
I certainly won't let it get in the way of fine [snip] 'tooning!
-------
What breaks me up about this whole topic is that this pacifist message has been
an
internalized part of the Japanese culture since we rewrote their constitution
after
the surrender. I seem to recall during the Gulf War or some such international
crisis when the hawks over here were kvetching about Japan not contributing its
fair share to Justice and Democracy. Japan rightly answered back: "Hey, what
can
we do? The constitution says it's a self-defense force only." Of course, the
sad
fact about American policy, both foreign and domestic, is that oftentimes we
want
to have it both ways. Personally, I don't doubt the sincerity of many of the
antiwar messages in Japanese pop culture. Girls manga artist Hideko Tachikake
once
ran a 3-page sidebar which noted that her mother still gets literally
hysterical if
she watches a movie about the war and they blast an air raid siren; it segued
from
that to thoughts on Hiroshima and then into the "war is stupid" song by Culture
Club.
I don't generally doubt the "sincerity" of pacificist sentiments over there;
but I also do not take it to be anything but that -- mere sentiment and
political artifice. Just my opinion. When a more aggressive role is forced
upon them by history again, I have no doubt their government will be able to
convince the people (who always "want to be bamboozled," as Goebbels wrote and
as he should know) of their new-found manifest destiny. Back to the future
I'll say then.
-------
My point at this point is to put it all in the big picture. Japan was
inherently
militant from 1895 to 1945, inherently pacifist after 1945; internationally
militant in the 1590s and internationally pacifist from 1600 to the 1850s.
They've
had a much longer history than ours, and they as a nation cannot be said to be
only
"warlike" or only "pacifist"; it's been both at various times.
One of the points I'm making is that political power is inherently physical and
violent. Under American management, Japan has been one of many star pupils.
Once it graduates, so to speak, it will probably recall something else. (I've
been a bit vague so far as my feelings are better explained within a context,
below.)
-------
There are a couple of issues here. Consensus in Japan and consensus in the US
are
two very different things, inasmuch as the Japanese culture is based on the
idea of
group affiliation, on the favors that someone does for you and the obligation
you
have to repay that favor. The whole American "rugged individualism" thing
really
has no place in that culture; anybody out of step with popular opinion is
viewed
with suspicion as a "lone wolf". Such a person may be romanticized in the pop
culture, but the implicit message is always: "Don't go there." So I have to
wonder
if in fact the war was supported, from beginnning to end, by rabidly patriotic
Japanese. The Japanese language allows for a lot of wiggle-room and purposeful
vagueness; it's evolved that way over centuries, and that's a whole nother
topic.
Besides, if lack of enthusiasm were equated with treason, who wouldn't embrace
the
government body and soul--publicly, at least? A lot of Japan's "hidden
Christians"
kept statues of the Kannon on the family altar, knowing that the government
wouldn't object; to them, however, they viewed the statue as "really" the
Virgin
Mary.
So they cannot be held accountable by reason of culture and tradition? Why
should the "Good Germans" be made to feel so guilty, then? Jewish conspiracy,
indeed!
Or are these Japs really human, after all? Can they be compared with facist
Italy, whose half-hearted efforts in WWII made them more an Ally than an Axis?
(I'll be more "explicit" [thorough in explanation] below...else I'd be
repeating myself even more throughout!)
-------
Having said all that, we need also to remember that in a sense, Japanese
militarism
started when Commodore Perry sailed into Tokyo in 1853. (Just as a sidebar: he
was
sent to Japan by Millard Fillmore primarily to establish a listening post to
find
out what the British were doing in China, since the Brits took over China in
1841
following the Opium Wars).
Depends on what you mean by "took over." HK was far from taking over the whole
of China, for the record. Even with coastal control during "The Pacific War,"
the Japs felt increasingly bewildered by the task of putting an end to its
expedition in China and then finally being able to deal with the West
whole-heartedly, as the whole "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" thing
was originally alledged to have been about (The WWII Encyclopedia, edited by
the famous late Brig. Gen. S.L.A. Marshall, quotes them in its volume on the
latter Pacific Theater of Operations assessing their Chinese enemies to be the
most tenacious and able of all, having checked them since the early '30s
despite civil wars). Quite similar to the contemporaneous Nazi experience in
the Soviet Union in this regard.
-------
We didn't go there to modernize or missionary Japan.
I think these activities were self-evident for those times. "Praise the Lord
and pass the ammunition!"
-------
We did, however, teach them that (a) the western world had progressed amazingly
since Tokugawa closed down the island in 1603, and (b) a state-run military was
deemed to be part of the modern world.
I would think consequence (b) is more properly credited to the Germans, whom
Meiji reformers, I seem to recall reading, felt better approximated the
Japanese stage of development (up-n-coming power).
-------
Hence the Meiji reformation, the
dissolution of the samurai class with its private militias and the push toward
western modernization. Hence, also, the 1895 war against Russia, then against
China, and all the other military adventures Japan undertook between 1895 and
Pearl
Harbor. Japan has always had a really swift learning-curve (as Detroit can
well
attest), but only if what they took from the rest of the world could be adapted
to
Japan's image of itself.
Indeed, and as the image was for nationalistic purposes of nation-building
then, so too is the more acceptable but still nation-building images which
pervade the titles and sub-genre under discussion. While tugging at the
heart-strings, they can also be strangely and subtly self-laudatory.
Hence "anime and politics."
Hence "WWII Anime."
Hence my poli-sci-based (as opposed to others' flaming trolling sci-fi-based)
opinions.
-------
And yes, I think it's safe to say that most civilians in any war situation
consider
themselves "more sinned-against than sinning". Supporting one's political
leaders
does not necessarily mean picking up a gun and shooting someone. Indeed, when
the
war turned and American planes dropped napalm on Japan and American troops
prepared
to invade, then Japan felt the way we did at Pearl Harbor, with justification.
They felt that they were being violated indiscriminately, that their specific
wartime attacks on military targets were being repaid by carpet bombing of both
civilian and military targets. (It was, in fact, our fire-bombing of Dresden
and
Kobe, and the nuking of Hiroshima, that caused the Geneva convention to be
written
such that such mass destruction was a crime against humanity.)
You are right in what you say, but I feel that it's peripheral to my concerns
here. They are insightful asides and true in and of themselves, but do not
address the "problem" I see with singularly self-pitying anime in the context
of prevalent, official, and long-standing Japanese historical revisionism or
denial and anime otaku and newcomers.
-------
And it's curious that you should be bothered by Japan "waging its war
viciously"
only to state to the world that they did nothing wrong; haven't we done the
same?
Japan is under discussion, not anyone else. That everyone's doing it has never
been an accepted principle for pardon in any court of law.
I'm not "bothered" by it personally, or perhaps less than I should be (I can
appreciate anime, miso soup, work on communal AA issues, and entertain Japanese
semi-dignitaries of academia and so forth w/o The War being an issue at all),
given my family history (father fought Japs, mother was on Jap-occupied
Taiwan), but of course there are reasons for everything, including my perceived
sense of "misssion" in keeping alive the memory of those years, especially
amongst the Hello Kitty Taiwanese of today, etc.
(BTW, FYI, it isn't surprising to me that a native ad agency there had recently
featured a cartoon Hitler in its campaign for a German home heater or radiator
["Deutscher Gruss" with "Fight the Cold Front!" caption], as on a trip back
there last summer I'd encountered someone with the Imperial Rising Sun ensign
on her moto-scooter helmet! Would that we at least had the awareness and
gumption of Jews, many of whom demanded hell for the recent Manji Pokemon
cards!)
-------
Hasn't every army, in every country in every epoch, done the same? Didn't we
fight
viciously against the British in 1776 by adopting the tactics of the Indians?
(The
Brits seemed to think so).
FYI, I have no qualms with so-called terrorists, on a "theoretical,"
"objecvtive," level (of course I'd be pissed in hell to have been sent there by
one). All nation-states are born of blood and war; as Chomsky noted (whom I
note not to suggest he'd approve of my opinions -- quite the contrary, I should
think, but...), nation-states are by definition violent institutions. Might
does make "right." As Thucydides (sp?) recorded of his fellow democracy-loving
Athenians' response to Melanian (sp?) pleas to be left out of some recurring
war of theirs with Sparta, "The strong do what they will, they weak suffer what
they must."
You keep trying to "subvert" the discussion by pointing out how everyone does
it, etc., with which I have no qualms, usually...it's just that these anime
titles are self-pitying, and basically potray Japs as victims, and that is
simply a lie.
-------
We still hear complaints about Desert Storm not being
vicious enough!
It depends on the objectives. As C-in-C, Bush met his own self-set objectives
and the war was in this regard a success.
-------
Unless you're the winner, self-righteousness tends to breed
viciousness. "ALL wars are holy wars," England's Henry II says in a play by
Jean
Anouilh; "I defy you to find me a belligerant who DOESN'T have God on his
side."
And, as Bob Dylan pointed out, "You don't count the dead with God on your
side."
So all sides are vicious: Pol Pot and Lt. Calley, Sam Houston and Santa Ana.
BTW, FYI, armytimes.com has curiously referred to the event in which Lt. Calley
earned his notoriety as the the, quote, "so-called My Lai massacre," unquote,
in their current retrospective on American military personalities of this
century. As any trooper can attest (myself, 4th Division, Ft. Kit Carson, CO,
11-B infantry, '93-'95), the Army Times is a trusted independent weekly found
on just about all military installations. One may safely surmise its opinions
to reflect those of the real military establishment, the senior non-coms,
backbone of any army.
-------
It's
a non-issue. The only difference is, the self-righteousness of losers tends to
ring hollow, not least among themselves.
Well it damn should, as self-rightrousness is something of a vice, and vices
are best afforded by the rich and deservedly haughty!
Hmm, could it be why G-7 Japan should exhibit such slowly but surely rising
political confidence? "Just say 'No!'" (If you get my drift.)
-------
Modern Japanese pop culture rarely lionizes the military from the WWII period.
It
rarely lionizes the military, period, and takes this so far as to indict the
military-industrial complex, making the development of battle robots into an
evil,
whether seriously (in "Key the Metal Idol") or humorously ("Roujin Z", "Nuku
Nuku"). The Self Defense Force is treated as a joke in "Hummingbirds".
Yes, and they're to be commended on it, I suppose, but with the caveat that
it's a general sentiment shard by all democracies, which just tend to have an
anti-military and/or anti-militarism sentiment.
Before anyone nods off again due to dense digression, let me say again that
WWII anime, and specifically the earlier-referred-to titles, are what's being
examined by this, and its cousin "anime and politics," thread.
-------
I'm sure it's been done. I can say with certainty that we've done it, in an
execrable film called "Red Dawn", which focused on some small town in the
Rockies
being overrun by the Dirty Commies, without any hint (except for one US pilot's
say-so) of the whys and wherefores.
Oddly enough, Red Dawn was directed by the same guy, Newhouse or something like
that, who gave us the magnificent Neitzchean epic Conan The Barbarian! Well, I
guess Oliver Stone's role in the script had something to do with the latter
film's success.
Anyway, your reply here is...besides the point. Silly as it was, Red Dawn
involved no real history, whereas my whole "beef" is with the historical
context of war-related anime!
-------
And Lord knows that Hollywood produced more
than its share of Yellow Peril films in the 40s that played fast and loose with
facts.
Yes, truly, but again besides the point. Playing "fast and loose with the
facts" (if indeed that's the case; I suspect such films to have been pure
fantasies, really) is quite different from outright ignorance or covering up of
facts and figures.
The Leiden (sp?) character in Lawrence of Arabia put it best when he explained
that "a man who tells a lie...merely hides the truth, whereas one who tells
half-lies has forgotten where he'd put it!"
Shame on the Japs.
-------
Returning a volley in tennis means hitting back the same ball that went over
the
net in the first place. Our two atomic bombs could hardly be called 'tit for
tat'.
I do not intend for the discussion to be solely an American-Japanese one, as it
were. As a matter of fact, being Chinese, I find it ironic that the worst
punishment was inflicted by the least injured!
Recall that I speak of the whole Jap-stlyed "Pacific War" in which they were
actually liberators of fellow Asians from white oppression. I would've
referred to the cataclysmic American role only in passing, had I done that.
-------
Example [sinp] : "Ironically, the first staging
area for Christian entry into Japan became the last theater of the war with the
bombing of Nagasaki on August 9, 1945.
History is no judge, but it does exhibit a poet's sense of irony!
-------
The epicenter of the nuclear bomb blast was
within 400 yards of Urakami Cathedral; most of the nuns of the St. Francis
Convent
were destroyed in the blast. "(O)ver 6,000 Catholics in the Urakami Valley
died in
that . . . instant." (Chinnock, Frank W. 1969. Nagasaki: The Forgotten Bomb.
New York & Cleveland: New American Library/World Publishing Company, p. 108)
Unless you can attack Mr. Chinnock's bonafides as a historian, we would have to
take his account at face value; but even halved, the notion of the bombing of a
convent in the stronghold of Japanese Christianity--no matter by whom--is
horrific.
I could also quote you the German Siemens scientist/Nazi Party member working
in Nanjing who lead "Red Swastika" efforts at rescuing victims of Jap
atrocities...but I won't, and refer you instead to his granddaughter's book on
the matter.
-------
My question here: how can it be revisionism if films like "Barefoot Gen", "Rail
to
the Stars" and "Grave of the Fireflies" are based on true incidents?
Revisionism
implies showing something that didn't happen, or suppressing something that
did.
Keiji Nakazawa, creator of the "Barefoot Gen" manga, was a schoolboy in
Hiroshima
who survived the blast and, from all accounts I've seen, neither overplayed nor
underplayed the horrors of atomic bombardment. Akiyuki Nosaka had an infant
stepsister starve to death at the very end of the war, which led to "Grave of
the
Fireflies". Not every pop culture remembrance of the war is based on an actual
incident, but those which are should not be dismissed as "revisionism", which
suggests playing fast and loose with the facts because of a political axe to
grind.
Political axe to grind??
The Last Emperor was cut and edited in Jap-land b/c of Jap newsreel footage
showing Jap atrocities -- to the outrage of Bernardo. However, poor Japs' kids
suffering from a war they wanted but still insist aren't responsible for --
that's "courageous cinema."
Revisionism doesn't necessarily have to do with facts and figures -- it may be
a "sentimental" sort of revisionism, where even though the reality is not in
dispute, its meaning, consequences, and "color" or "texture" is. (Also, just
for the record, "revisionism" is, under a different reading, the simple act of
iconoclasm, and therefore neither inherently "bad" nor "good." Insofar as the
prevailing intellectual fashion these days to cut the Japs some slack, what I'm
doing is revisionism!) For example, the British in India: sure they built
roads and bridges, introduced cricket and trousers, and unified the
sub-continent in a way it hadn't been for generations prior to colonialism --
but was it all for the good, in the end? And whose? The British look back
with nostalgia to their lost Empire, and even point out with pride the
beneficial consequences thereof (English proliferation, for example).
Americans are similarly self-impressed.
These anime titles are not intentionally revisionist, perhaps, but insofar as
they garner sympathy for the plight of Japan's wartime civilians while
necessarily ignoring the wider context of the war (not a critique, that, just
an observation, as for children there are indeed no wider contexts) -- a war
which those selfsame civilians supported for the most part, your claims
notwithstanding -- one does oneself a disservice in gorging on similarly
sycophanous fare. Food for thought should come from all food groups, so to
speak. As the titles under discussion (or flaming, to be more precise)
constitute a most sugary diet, it is no wonder many minds are mush and can
resort but to what I've shown to be only trolling tactics in response.
Compare, again, the lackluster effort by facist Italy often noted by historians
with the prodigious strain exerted by their other Axis partners. The
civilian/military excuse oft proffered ist kaputt, capish!
Or again, compare "collateral damage" in Prince of Egypt (a beautiful film,
BTW, but also founding myth nation-building "propaganda") vis-a-vis any of the
aforementioned anime titles. Note, again, that such a call is not criticism,
especially with regard to content; merely observation of "consequences" or
resultant viewer sentiment and sympathies.
Point of view is a basic concept of cinema, and all I'm saying is that the
child-like (and thereby innocent) p.o.v. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO prevalent in "wartime
anime" serves ultimately to obscure history and obfuscate any real-world
demands for accounting and responsibility. Witness my reception on r.a.a.m.
with regards to this topic. Using children as the vehicle by which popular
wartime memories are chronicled can only absolve the nation, in time, from any
true analysis of its real role in atrocities. Children are generally passive,
powerless, as are civilians under a fanciful civilian/military dichotomy
(which, BTW, goes against the facts of facist sociological organization) --
hence, the Nation was passive and powerless AND ULTIMATELY VICTIMS AND
INNOCENT. No apologies needed when you've a gun to your head.
Remember, it seems like a lot of people get their history from anime and movies
in general; indeed, their Weltschauung! In an age where books are more
plentiful and varied than ever before but the medium is ironically in decline
relative to other media "formats" (film, internet, etc.), I thought my
passionate reminder to put things in perspective relevant and, even if not
immediately successful, necessary, as well as being on-topic, unlike posts
which called my persona into question.
-------
It did under John Ford, most lamentably in "The Searchers", where Indians are
treated pretty much the way Scarlett O'Hara treated the darkies in "Gone With
the
Wind". Of course, by the time Vietnam rolled around, there were westerns from
the
Indian point of view like "Little Big Man". The question is, which one was
revisionist--"The Searchers", where Whitey denied his own massacres of Indian
women
and children, or "Little Big Man" which dwelt on "the suffering of the poor
[red]
civilians"?
Interestingly enough, The Searchers was somewhat sympathetic to the Natives,
given their prevailing treatment in most run-of-the-mill Westerns. The
protagonist played by John Wayne was a Captain Ahab kinda character (obsessive
to the point of insanity, but instead of white whales it's white blood and
honor). Thus, the film is only "pseudo-revisionist," as it played with the
conventions of the time and did not seek to subvert them, though honorably
suggesting in passing the matter of white identity and Euro-American founding
myths.
I've heard of Little Big Man but have not seen it (just clips here and there);
thus, I assume it to be the Dances With Wolves of its time, though not as
"cheerful." Again, we now have the LBM/DWW depiction of the American West b/c
in this new age of multi-culti and tolerance, globalism, etc., it's become
unbecoming to dabble in such worship of white power, and the new heros are the
former villains (Injuns and race-traitors). This is my point, then: the
socio-political function such tales play, whether their creators intended it or
not (indeed, the theory of art is that artists are the Jungian antennae of the
race, and anticipate in their works future developments in the community), is
that of nation-building and history-justification. Moral notions are
irrelevent and not even possible when there is no choice -- morality requires
choice, after all, and choice is not possible in the face of absolute
necessity.
Again, I bring up The Prince of Egypt as an example. The Egyptians were
clearly the bad guys, etc., and Egyptian civilians suffered horribly at the
hands of God. Given the p.o.v. of that movie, they were not to be pitied, or
pitied too much for too long, whereas the anime under discussion are
"love-fests" and "self-congratulatory" Forrest Gump-esque cinema (though
darker, to be sure) by comparison.
-------
Oddly enough, your analysis holds up until the last sentence. The Buddhist
component of the Japanese culture has always held that suffering brings
purification. Japan is, after all, one country among many where the phoenix is
a
potent mythological symbol. Having waged war, and suffered for it, they now
conduct themselves peacefully on the world stage; if that doesn't make them
"good
guys", what does?
The problem I have with this analysis is that it's too "moral-laden" and not
"realistic" enough. Of course, all arguments depend on the premises, and mine
are that the role of great powers in world affairs and history simply is not
receptive to a "moral force" analysis. Japan may seem like "good guys" now
because it can afford to be pacifist under the American security umbrella.
Take that factor away, and all bets are off. So to talk in terms of heros and
villains (not that you do, necessarily, as we're all caught up in this
baby-speak language of popular armchair political analysis to some degree)
rather more obscures the issues than it does in illuminating them.
As Lord Palmerton (sp?) so famously said, "Britain has neither permanent
friends nor permanent enemies. It has permanent interests." Likewise of all
nations; the Japanese role in Asia today is what it is given the prevailing
political circumstances (even China is tentatively appreciative of the American
presence) -- not b/c they have "suffered" and have now learnt their lesson.
It's my thesis that the current popular image of the Japanese role is not borne
of reality, but necessary myth-making, the nation-building founding myths
necessary to any society. Japan is currently neutered, militarily, and this
myth of suffering and purification/redemption, however much it may jibe with
any such preexisting notions in Japanese tradition (potent precisely b/c of
such a happy coincidence), is simply what's necessary to believe about the
nation as it currently is in order to justify its eunchical status. I am sure
that when history offers a different stage for them, a different script and
political ideology and consciousness will similarly arise, phoenix-like, out of
the ashes of the old "Yamamoto damashi" (sp?).
-------
To wrap this up: [snip] a murder mystery set in the Japanese-American detention
camp at
Tule Lake, California, where the government sent the most suspicious cases: the
so-called "No-No boys" (because of their answers to two items on a
questionnaire).
In looking up internment websites, I found one where someone had angrily asked
"What about the Bataan death march?" Good question: what is the relevance of
the
way the Japanese military treated POWs in the field to the way Congress
implemented
FDR's Executive Order 9066 by setting up ten civilian concentration camps? At
some
point, we need to ask how relevant any given atrocity is to the discussion at
hand,
and how tenuous the connection...
Yes, and we can start by not using words like "concentration camps" to describe
those internment camps. Despite its Boer War origins, konzentrazionslager has
too much of the Holocaust attached to it now for folks to suggest something of
that sort by such rather indiscriminate usage.
However, your budding story sounds interesting, and I wish you the best of luck
with it! Have you seen that movie Come See the Paradise ? It had some scenes
with these "No No Boys" at an internment camp debating each other, rioting, and
finally getting deported to never be seen or heard from again in the film.
BTW, I'd found a "revisionist" book in The Queens Library
Personally, I'm pretty much a Buddhist and a pacifist. It's hard for me to
imagine
being any other way. If you can't walk down the same road, that's cool. It
doesn't mean that we can't talk/write out our takes on history, morality and
the
perfectability of the human species.
Well, I believe in "moderation in all things"...even in moderation itself! War
just seems necessary, often times.
Don't forget, that while necessity maybe the mother of all things, "war is the
father of all things" (some famous ancient Greek). You know, along the lines
of that old saw about the Swiss coming up with nothing better in three hundred
years of peace and prosperity than cheese and the cukoo (sp?) clock, whereas in
the same period Italians produced Michelangelo, Da Vinci, etc. amidst war,
chaos, plague, famine, and papal corruption!
Carl Horn
that it is rare in anime to see the suggestion that Japan might have been
conducting a campaign of imperialist aggression against their neighbors
during the Second World War and the decades leading up to it. You might
object that anime is not an appropriate place to deal with such a weighty
subject. While I would disagree, it's more than a matter of simply
avoiding the subject; anime such as SPACE BATTLESHIP YAMATO, JIN-ROH, and
KISHIN HEIDAN can be interpreted as expressing revisionist or even
revanchist sentiments towards the Second World War, even to the bizarre
extent of suggesting that Japan fought the Nazis.
Again, you may think that putting this sort of weight on anime, a medium from
which first and foremost we derive fun and entertainment, is inappropriate.
But I think of the example of a director I admire tremendously, EVANGELION's
Hideaki Anno. In the Spring 1997 issue of TOKION magazine, he said, "Japan's
gone a half a century without a war. That means we've got two generations of
strong women and useless men. That'll all change if another war breaks
out." Now, you can certainly argue at the ideas expressed in that
statement even without reference to specific historical events. But when
you consider Mr. Anno's quote in terms of incidents such as the mass
incidents of rape-murder committed by the men of the Japanese army upon
the women of the Nanking and Manila, the quote is certainly enough to
give me pause. I think that Mr. Anno was exceedingly ill-served by his
history teachers.
--Carl "I got the rockin' pneumonia/I need a shot of ryhthm-and-blues" Horn
“What do you want of me?” Goto Dengo asks. There’s no preliminary
moistening of the eyeballs, the tears leap out of him and run down his
face. “I came to the Church because of some words.”
“Words.”
“‘This is Jesus Christ who taketh away the sins of the world.’”
Goto Dengo says. “Enoch Root, no one knows the sins of the world better
than me. I have swum in those sins, drowned in them, burned in them, dug
in them. I was like a man swimming down a long cave filled with black
cold water. Looking up, I saw a light above me, and swam towards it. I
only wanted to find the surface, to breathe air again. Still immersed in
the sins of the world, at least I could breathe. This is what I am now.”
—from Neil Stephenson’s “Cryptonomicon”
M Arnold
gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
> that it is rare in anime to see the suggestion that Japan might have
> been conducting a campaign of imperialist aggression against their
To the best of my knowledge it's rare to see that anywhere in Japan.
It would be quite a shock to see such an unpopular opinion put into
cartoons. Education in Japan is frighteningly lacking.
I certainly wish 50 years of "peace" had helped to make women stronger,
but their human rights are still blatently denied. Ironically enough,
Anno does have "war" in his Evangelion series, but he *also* has strong
women.
At any rate, I think anime is as appropriate 'place' as any Japanese
media to discuss these ideas. We simply have to take notice.
What about Legend of the Galactic Heroes? To what extent does this
series participate in Japan's re-imagination of the war?
Mike A
Carl Horn
M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
>
> gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
>
>> that it is rare in anime to see the suggestion that Japan might have
>> been conducting a campaign of imperialist aggression against their
>
>To the best of my knowledge it's rare to see that anywhere in Japan.
>It would be quite a shock to see such an unpopular opinion put into
>cartoons. Education in Japan is frighteningly lacking.
>
>I certainly wish 50 years of "peace" had helped to make women stronger,
>but their human rights are still blatently denied. Ironically enough,
>Anno does have "war" in his Evangelion series, but he *also* has strong
>women.
>
>At any rate, I think anime is as appropriate 'place' as any Japanese
>media to discuss these ideas. We simply have to take notice.
Certainly I agree with you there; it's especially true when it is now the
case that Japan's highest-budgeted films are anime, and when it is now
the case (as Mr. Anno himself recently noted) that anime is a successful
cultural export of Japan. Gainax knows perfectly well that the stakes can
be as high in anime as anywhere else in art.
I think it is possible that Mr. Anno views the beauty of girls and
women--or at least, their beauty in the eyes of men--as an aesthetic
equivalent to strength. I've wondered what Yukio Mishima would have
thought of such a symbolic and theatrical work as EVANGELION, where
Shinji saw his beauty in a male mirror but was unable to acknowledge it
in a female one.
LOVE AND POP was considerably more blunt in its self-hating portrayal of
men as negative creeps; after dipping into real-time Japan in that
movie and in his extraordinary discussions with today's Japanese high
school students, he came up for air in KareKano, with its gleeful
smashing and burning of form, and its courage seen in the face of Arima as
well as Yukino. Anno wants men as well as women to find reasons to be
beautiful, to find the expression of beauty in life--even that form of life
known as high school--rather than find it only in acts of apocalypse.
>
>What about Legend of the Galactic Heroes? To what extent does this
>series participate in Japan's re-imagination of the war?
>
That is a very good question--especially as Yang Wen-Li is one of anime's
few history majors (we have to stick together). But I am afraid that I am
not nearly familiar enough with that series to address the question.
Perhaps someone else can discuss this?
--Carl "Hey gaijin/What you doing uptown?" Horn
"In my earliest years, I realized that life
consisted of two contradictory elements.
One was words, which could change the world.
The other was the world itself,
which had nothing to do with words."
--Yukio Mishima
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> M. Arnold wrote:
>
> >What about Legend of the Galactic Heroes? To what extent does this
> >series participate in Japan's re-imagination of the war?
> >
>
> That is a very good question--especially as Yang Wen-Li is one of
> anime's few history majors (we have to stick together). But I am
> afraid that I am not nearly familiar enough with that series to
> address the question. Perhaps someone else can discuss this?
I didn't finish the series out, but from what I remember, Wen-Li
and the Republic's general political themes were lifted from prewar
Japanese experience. Of course, the writer took the exact wrong
lessons from early Japanese democratic experiments - that they were
weak, vulnerable to coups, corrupt, etc, etc. Basically, the Republic
had a similar experience to that of prewar Japan, without the
cultural baggage and economic conditions that underlaid the failure
of the first period of democratic experimentation. In terms of
narrative, the Republic thread pales before the Empire thread mostly
because tyranny makes for better drama than conscience.
--
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs/Witch House
M Arnold
> the case (as Mr. Anno himself recently noted) that anime is a
> successful cultural export of Japan.
I read an article on the Asahi Shimbun web site a couple of days ago
... I believe it was an interview with the CEO of Sony music
entertanment. After the CEO said that Japanese music would probably
never sell in America he found himself at a loss to explain the success
of Japanese cartoons in foreign countries.
Could any of Gainax's productions be linked, even allegorically, to
narratives about war between nations or WWII?
> Gainax knows perfectly well that the stakes can be as high in anime
> as anywhere else in art.
Yes, to their credit.
> I think it is possible that Mr. Anno views the beauty of girls and
> women--or at least, their beauty in the eyes of men--as an aesthetic
> equivalent to strength. I've wondered what Yukio Mishima would have
That's a fascinating idea. I might be able to see a show like Yamato
or even Sailor Moon in that model but I'm not sure that I would agree
in regards to Evangelion. The women in Eva are at perhaps "beautiful"
but also strong, powerful... and ugly. Asuka having her period, for
example, is probably not something that young, male, Japanese
experience would find beauty (or even meaning?) in. Misato's sexuality
doesn't subdue her professional ability, or leave her shivering with
pleasure at the mercy of "stronger" men. She does leave Shinji
shivering, however. Kaoru does as well. We also need to look at the
images of male beauty in Eva.
What would Mishima have thought... that's something I'll have to think
about.
> That is a very good question--especially as Yang Wen-Li is one of
> anime's few history majors (we have to stick together). But I am
Realizing I never finished, I recently started to view the series
again. To simplify the conflict to a ridiculous degree, right now it
looks like a space-age WWII U.S. versus a space-age WWII Japan, dressed
up like Germany. That would place the power of Yang's history on the
American side. I'm only on the 5th tape though, so I should wait and
see what happens. The idea of the "emperor's" responsibility and
activity in the wars of LoGH intrigues me...
Did you know about the Anno/Oshima Nagisa dialogue in the current issue
of "Eureka"?
"I'll be your mirror/reflect what you are/in case you don't know..."
M Arnold
"Charles M. Hagmaier" <kyo...@home.com> wrote:
> lessons from early Japanese democratic experiments - that they were
> weak, vulnerable to coups, corrupt, etc, etc.
That sounds like the way post-war political and social experiments are
described in some 80s and 90s anime and film. Weak, disorganized,
vulnerable to coups... corruption, internal violence, factionalization,
failure. Waiting for the ultimate revival of some powerful,
mysterious force. Speaking of which, I watched Oshii Mamoru's "Dallos"
last night.
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
>
> That sounds like the way post-war political and social experiments are
> described in some 80s and 90s anime and film. Weak, disorganized,
> failure. Waiting for the ultimate revival of some powerful,
> mysterious force. Speaking of which, I watched Oshii Mamoru's
> "Dallos" last night.
That's of two parts. The one part is the influence of the new Leftism,
which was predicated on "action" and other neo-nihilistic doctrines
of heroic violence. The other part is the memory of the last failure.
So far as I know, Japan hasn't suffered an actual military coup
attempt since 1932. Mishima's little party wasn't exactly a serious
affair, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't military. Of course,
that might have something to do with the American garrisons...
Democracy as an ideology has always seemed to be a fairly shallow
matter in Japan. The leftists confuse it with socialism or
Mao-style totalitarianism, and the wack-jobs with some theoretical
idealized fascism. I have yet to see an anime that accurately
reflected an understanding of Lockean democratic ideals. It's possible
that the timing of the introduction of Western ideas to Japan meant
that the Enlightenment ideas were given short shrift. The ideas played
with in Japanese literature seem to be Kantean and Neitzchean rather
than Lockean or Hobbesean. IE, a concern with "culture" and
relativistic "will to power" rather than the "low foundation" of the
early enlightenment.
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
>
> Could any of Gainax's productions be linked, even allegorically, to
> narratives about war between nations or WWII?
>
The end of WoH could be equated with the provocation-incident of
1936 at the Marco Polo Bridge in China.
[on LoGH]
> Realizing I never finished, I recently started to view the series
> again. To simplify the conflict to a ridiculous degree, right now it
> looks like a space-age WWII U.S. versus a space-age WWII Japan,
> dressed up like Germany. That would place the power of Yang's history
> on the American side.
You might want to look closer. The Republic isn't really very
American, except maybe for the details of its founding. It's
parliamentary, suffers from an over-powerful military, fascistic
brownshirts, and weak ideology. None of those elements are
particularly American (New Leftist sloganeering aside - and no, the
American Legion didn't quite qualify as brownshirts. The KKK comes
close, but they were race-fixated, and LoGH has nothing about
racial conflict)
The Empire and the Republic are both expressions of modern
Japanese political ideology as perceived by the author, in my
opinion. The neo-German Neitzchean ideas are represented by the
Empire, and the weak-tea social democratic ideals are represented
by the Republic, with Phezzan as the cynical businessmen.
--
Mitch Hagmaier
OTAKON Con Chair
Baltimore Convention Center - August 4-5-6, 2000
http://www.otakon.com
Avatar
A very interesting take on the Japanese political culture. I'll have to
pop that on my professor in a couple of weeks and see how far his eyes
bug out. ;p
Avatar
taking "Japanese Politics" for upper-level credit... yay!
...paying $350 for textbooks... aargh...
Danielle
Danielle
Charles M. Hagmaier wrote in message <3885AE3F...@home.com>...
Danielle
Charles M. Hagmaier wrote in message <38867DB1...@home.com>...
>M Arnold wrote:
>>
>> College students sure got caught up in the protests, riots and
>> violence that accompanied AMPO debates and what not in the 60s. It
>> never became a coup, but it was a very active movement.
>
>This is what I was referring to by "New Leftism". The 60s saw an
>upsurge of Neitzschean violence and anticulturalism disguised as
>socialism from France to England to Columbia to Tokyo.
>
>>
>> Mishima's 'party' and suicide wasn't a serious military move, but it
>> is considered by some to be the major turning point in post-war Japan.
>>
>
>Really. Why?
>
>> > that the timing of the introduction of Western ideas to Japan meant
>> > that the Enlightenment ideas were given short shrift. The ideas
>>
>> Waves at Genji's Door: Japan Through its Cinema" (197?) Joan Mellen
>> writes that Japanese political ... identity (?) is still "neo-feudal,"
>> and that even its patterns of social protest submit to hierarchical
>> roles.
>
>Erk, I was trying to avoid the "F-word" (feudalism). What I was
>actually thinking of was the dominant ideas in a lot of anime - which
>are European romanticism, Kantean culturalism, and Nietschean nihilism.
>Well, that, and the underlying Shinto aesthetics of transience and
>Buddhist nihilism.
Buddhism is NOT nihilistic! Buddhism is not a nihilistic refusal of the
world. That belief would completely negate the entire fundemental
understanding of the concept of loving compassion which is one of the
highest goals in Buddhism--whatever the sect. Buddhist struggle to achieve
enlightenment which does lead them out of the cycle of death and rebirth;
however, while in the process of achieving enlightenment they are very much
a part of the world in the fact that they endeavor to help those around
them. Please explain what you mean by Buddhist nihilism. If you are quoting
Pope John Paul there is a very good article I suggest you read in the
Buddhist/Christian Theological studies Journal. Volumn 13
Danielle
Danielle
It is as state of being so far removed from our current state and from the
stated of the higher 'heavens' that it cannot be defined or explained.
Unfortunately this concept gets termed the 'extinction' of the self in
Western philosophy because there is a basic misunderstanding about the
concept of Nirvana. the self does not 'end' but it is so changed that
talking about it in the same terms is irrelvant.
Sorry if I offended you about the Pope John Paul comment. I just remember
him making a very similar comment that sparked off a major reaction amongst
Buddhist and Buddhist scholars alike. The article is still good.
I'm particularly... passionate about this subject because I'm working on a
research paper dealing with the Buddhist philosophy. I don't mean to step on
any toes. Gomen nasai....
Danielle
Charles M. Hagmaier wrote in message <38868F1C...@home.com>...
>Danielle wrote:
>>
>>
>> Buddhism is NOT nihilistic! Buddhism is not a nihilistic refusal of
>> the world. That belief would completely negate the entire fundemental
>> understanding of the concept of loving compassion which is one of the
>> highest goals in Buddhism--whatever the sect. Buddhist struggle to
>> achieve enlightenment which does lead them out of the cycle of death
>> and rebirth; however, while in the process of achieving enlightenment
>> they are very much a part of the world in the fact that they endeavor
>> to help those around them.
>
>Ok... are you talking about the Buddha-nature-type compassion that
>aims at helping others achieve enlightenment? Given the definition
>of nirvana as the extinction of self, I'd call that benevolent
>nihilism. Sort of the Doctor Kevorkian of philosophies, but
>compassionate none the same.
>
>A philosophical nihilist can be a saint and still be
>a nihilist. I would label large segments of the hippie/yippie
>communes as nihilistic, and I certainly don't mean that they were
>evil bearded bomb-throwing anarchists. Nihilists believe in the
>extinction of self, environment, society, and/or culture.
>
>> Please explain what you mean by Buddhist nihilism.
>
>Nirvana is the extinction of self. True or false? This is nihilism
>by definition.
>
>> If you are quoting Pope John Paul there is a very good article I
>> suggest you read in the Buddhist/Christian Theological studies
>> Journal. Volumn 13
>
>I am the least likely person on this earth to quote John Paul II on
>anything. For one thing, I was raised Protestant. For another thing,
>I am not a Christian. For a third thing, I disapprove of about 75%
>of John Paul II's social, economic, and religious views. (his stance
>on sexual mores, his third-way economic idiocies, and Catholic theology
>in general). Of course, I agree with him on the whole assisted-suicide
>thing, but that's an accident of statistics. If I looked hard enough,
>I'm sure I could find a point of agreement with Stalin. "Fascists
>are bad" would probably cover it.
M Arnold
"Charles M. Hagmaier" <kyo...@home.com> wrote:
> M Arnold wrote:
> So far as I know, Japan hasn't suffered an actual military coup
> attempt since 1932. Mishima's little party wasn't exactly a serious
College students sure got caught up in the protests, riots and violence
that accompanied AMPO debates and what not in the 60s. It never became
a coup, but it was a very active movement.
Mishima's 'party' and suicide wasn't a serious military move, but it is
considered by some to be the major turning point in post-war Japan.
Incidentally, Yamato and the resulting "anime boom" came a few years
after that...
> Democracy as an ideology has always seemed to be a fairly shallow
> matter in Japan. The leftists confuse it with socialism or
The Americans sure liked the sound of it, though... turning Japan into
a democratic, "free" nation...
> that the timing of the introduction of Western ideas to Japan meant
> that the Enlightenment ideas were given short shrift. The ideas
From what I've read, that's a fairly common interpretation. In "The
Waves at Genji's Door: Japan Through its Cinema" (197?) Joan Mellen
writes that Japanese political ... identity (?) is still "neo-feudal,"
and that even its patterns of social protest submit to hierarchical
roles. She described the protesting Miyamata victims, if I remember
correctly, as trying to seek mercy from a parental-type authority
figure instead of trying to make Chisso take full responsibility for
their crime. The victims ultimately weren't treated with the respect
or rights they deserved. I can't agree with Mellen in the amount of
credit she gives 60s and 70s directors for fighting that neo-feudalism,
though. There is a lot of talk about "human rights" and
"egalitarianism," and laws have been and are being made, but I agree
that the 'same' concepts are interpreted differently in Japan. The
prevailing order of things still seems to be the paternalistic
hierarchy.
On the other hand, imagine how Americans would try to interpret and use
Confucianism or something if the roles were reversed...
We talked a little about history and revisionism earlier in this
thread. There's an article on the Mainichi Daily News site I thought
you all might like to see... "Nanking Denial Triggers Outrage"
http://www.mainichi.co.jp/english/news/news05.html
It'll probably be replaced in a couple of hours so I'll just paste it
here:
Wednesday, January 19, 2000
Nanking denial triggers outrage
Mainichi Shimbun
China and Chinese communities in the Kansai region urged the Osaka
municipal and prefectural governments Tuesday to ban a forum which
denies that a massacre in Nanking by the Japanese Imperial Army during
the Japanese invasion of China in the 1930s ever occurred.
The revisionist forum titled: "The Verification of the Rape of Nanking:
The Biggest Lie of the 20th Century," is scheduled to open at the
semi-governmental Osaka International Peace Center (Peace Osaka) on
Jan. 23.
"We believe that the aim of the forum is to deny the historical fact
and to make a mockery of the Chinese people," a protest by an
association of resident Chinese communities in Osaka, Kyoto and Kobe
stated. "It is a serious provocation against peace-loving Chinese and
Japanese people, which may undermine the trust between the two
nations."
The association handed in the protest to the Osaka Prefectural
Government, Osaka Mayor Takafumi Isomura, and the director of Peace
Osaka.
The Chinese Government also criticized the forum in its official
People's Daily and through its consulate general in Osaka, demanded the
local governments to cancel the forum.
"The whole of China is horrified and angered by this. Peace Osaka was
established as an anti-war museum to support the pacifist movement, and
yet, it is holding a forum that romanticizes the invasion," vice-consul
Teng An-jun said.
The forum was organized by a revisionist group, which is aiming to
"correct" the display of war-related materials that are inclined to
denounce everything the Japanese military did before and during World
War II.
The group applied to use the Peace Osaka Hall to hold a "forum to
discuss peace." A lecture by revisionist university professor and video
materials to support their argument is part of the forum's schedule.
Despite the protest, Peace Osaka management says it can't cancel the
event.
"The group did nothing against our rules, and there are no grounds to
refuse them the use of the hall," an official of Peace Osaka Hall said.
Peace Osaka opened in 1991 to tell the "tragedies of war and the
importance of peace" to future generations.
Displays of damage to Asia-Pacific nations during Japan's colonial
invasions from 1931 to 1945 are some of the biggest attractions of the
museum.
-----
M Arnold
> The end of WoH could be equated with the provocation-incident of
> 1936 at the Marco Polo Bridge in China.
A-ha.
> You might want to look closer. The Republic isn't really very
> American, except maybe for the details of its founding. It's
Well I don't expect it to be that accurate, but in the story's
imagination could it be representing the "U.S." side? This is all of
course fiction, but it's trying to paint a picture that relates to
images already in our imaginations. I'd have to go back and check, but
I think the subtitles (in the original Japanese, that is -- Japanese as
well as English or German subtitles to identify characters and places)
for the Republic are all English and the names (Jessica, Robert and
what not... with the exception of Yang) are European/American-ish. The
Empire is all in German, I believe.
If we look at Yamato, we see victims of nuclear invasion who are going
out to find the device to save their planet. That's not historically
accurate to Japan, but they do represent Japan in a sort of
re-visioning of the war. In that case too, I believe the 'bad' guys
are designed to represent Germany. I'm reading a book now that said
the original plan for the story was to have a crew consisting of people
from all nations, and the "yamato" spacecraft was going to be a
hollowed-out planetoid instead of a rebuilt battleship. I haven't
gotten to the explanation of how the more "nationalistic" elements were
added into the story yet.
> American Legion didn't quite qualify as brownshirts. The KKK comes
> close, but they were race-fixated, and LoGH has nothing about
> racial conflict)
That's interesting... I wonder why the story is so racially (if not
nationally) homogenous.
> The Empire and the Republic are both expressions of modern
> Japanese political ideology as perceived by the author, in my
That's another very interesting way to look at it, but I think it could
still work into an examination of the construction of different
"national" identities in the show. How are the various political
ideologies personified?
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> But Kant was an Enlightment thinker. Otherwise, I agree.
>
Kant came out of the Enlightenment, but his heritage is distinct -
and post-Enlightenment. The schools descended from Kant are concerned
with particularist ideas of national culture and are, at times,
distinctly illiberal. When I said "Kantean", I meant the German
philosophers - Kant, Hegel, Heidigger, Schopenhauer.
I'm not a philosophy major, so don't take this as gospel. Most of
my understanding of philosophy is a product of autodidactism, and
thus kind of suspect. I'm ashamed to admit how much of my
understanding is derived from Bloom's _Closing of the American Mind_. :)
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> College students sure got caught up in the protests, riots and
> violence that accompanied AMPO debates and what not in the 60s. It
> never became a coup, but it was a very active movement.
This is what I was referring to by "New Leftism". The 60s saw an
upsurge of Neitzschean violence and anticulturalism disguised as
socialism from France to England to Columbia to Tokyo.
>
> Mishima's 'party' and suicide wasn't a serious military move, but it
> is considered by some to be the major turning point in post-war Japan.
>
Really. Why?
> > that the timing of the introduction of Western ideas to Japan meant
> > that the Enlightenment ideas were given short shrift. The ideas
>
> From what I've read, that's a fairly common interpretation. In "The
> Waves at Genji's Door: Japan Through its Cinema" (197?) Joan Mellen
> writes that Japanese political ... identity (?) is still "neo-feudal,"
> and that even its patterns of social protest submit to hierarchical
> roles.
Erk, I was trying to avoid the "F-word" (feudalism). What I was
actually thinking of was the dominant ideas in a lot of anime - which
are European romanticism, Kantean culturalism, and Nietschean nihilism.
Well, that, and the underlying Shinto aesthetics of transience and
Buddhist nihilism.
Your average American text has a different set of ideas - American
romanticism (IE, the pacifism and Transcendentalism of Emerson and
Thoreau rather than the more violent and amoral Rousseau influenced
European strains), Quaker quietism, Calvinism, Lockean individualism,
social Darwinism.
The point being, that even in their received Western influences,
Americans and Japanese don't have much in common. Their basic
assumptions are informed by philosophical traditions that diverged in
the late 18th century - Jefferson, Madison and the American political
philosophers on the one hand, and Kant and the German school on the
other hand. One tradition placed the Enlightment in the saddle, and
the other broke it to the harness, in the service of authoritarianism
and particularist notions of nationalism.
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> Well I don't expect it to be that accurate, but in the story's
> imagination could it be representing the "U.S." side? This is all of
> course fiction, but it's trying to paint a picture that relates to
> images already in our imaginations. I'd have to go back and check,
> but I think the subtitles (in the original Japanese, that is --
> Japanese as well as English or German subtitles to identify characters
> and places) for the Republic are all English and the names (Jessica,
> Robert and what not... with the exception of Yang) are
> European/American-ish. The Empire is all in German, I believe.
The Empire is a different story from the Republic. The Empire is
distinctly racial in ideology and composition - mostly because the
founder-Emperors were stone racists, and apparently exterminated
anyone who wasn't Teutonic (or at least German-looking enough to pass).
The main reason the Republic was founded was that the Imperial
genocides apparently generated vast fleets of refugees.
Like I said, the founding of the Republic could be the idiot's
version of the American story. Of course, it could also be the
founding of Israel. :)
>
> If we look at Yamato, we see victims of nuclear invasion who are going
> out to find the device to save their planet. That's not historically
> accurate to Japan, but they do represent Japan in a sort of
> re-visioning of the war. In that case too, I believe the 'bad' guys
> are designed to represent Germany.
It's been a long time since I've seriously watched Yamato. If I
remember correctly, the Gamelon were some kind of odd blending of
Germans and Americans - all of the military-naval beefiness of the
Americans in the Pacific, and all of the affections and attitude of
aristocratic Prussians.
> I'm reading a book now that said the original plan for the story was
> to have a crew consisting of people from all nations, and the "yamato"
> spacecraft was going to be a hollowed-out planetoid instead of a
> rebuilt battleship. I haven't gotten to the explanation of how the
> more "nationalistic" elements were added into the story yet.
Be interesting to read. What's the book? For one thing, the TV
series was based on manga by Matsumoto, and not vice-versa, right?
Matsumoto's ideology and themes have always been consistent with what
I've been talking about in this thread - nihilism, culture fixation,
contempt for Lockean ideals. The second Yamato movie is virtually
a reenactment of the February 26th Incident, ferchristsakes. Or any of
a half-dozen similar incidents in the early 30's.
>
> > American Legion didn't quite qualify as brownshirts. The KKK comes
> > close, but they were race-fixated, and LoGH has nothing about
> > racial conflict)
>
> That's interesting... I wonder why the story is so racially (if not
> nationally) homogenous.
>
There's backstory filled in later on - the Empire is an ethnically
cleansed state.
> > The Empire and the Republic are both expressions of modern
> > Japanese political ideology as perceived by the author, in my
>
> That's another very interesting way to look at it, but I think it
> could still work into an examination of the construction of different
> "national" identities in the show.
Only in that the democratic ideals of the Republic are anti-nationalist
(as are the democratic ideals of the US). In practice, I'd just as
readily compare the Republic with France - similar pretensions to
internationalism.
> How are the various political ideologies personified?
You mean in terms of characters in LoGH? Rheinhard is the Neitzschean
hero, Yang is the Neitzschean image of the democratically diminished
failed hero. The premier of Phezzan is a social-darwinist predator.
The slimy Republican politician with brownshirt connections is a
typical demogogue-plotting-to-be-tyrant. Of course, the Republic has
its very own February 26th Incident during the course of the series.
Charles M. Hagmaier
--
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> Nirvana is not the extinction of the self but the moving beyond of the
> or explained. Unfortunately this concept gets termed the 'extinction'
> of the self in Western philosophy because there is a basic
> misunderstanding about the concept of Nirvana. the self does not 'end'
> but it is so changed that talking about it in the same terms is
> irrelvant.
Huh. Sounds like hairsplitting to me, sorry. But I'm sure people
would have the same response to, say, John Hooker's subtlies on the
subject of grace. That still leaves the basic philosophical hostility
to the phenomenal world that ranks right up there with Manichesean
gnosticism (which is another, minor philosophical thread, one often
related to American experiments with Buddhism in the 20th century,
if I remember correctly). Basically, there's a forking at Descartes'
corner - once you deduce that your senses are unreliable, you can either
rely on your own existence and reason, you can reject the argument
(Pascal) or you can reject the world.
> Sorry if I offended you about the Pope John Paul comment. I just
> remember him making a very similar comment that sparked off a major
> reaction amongst Buddhist and Buddhist scholars alike. The article is
> still good.
I'm not easily offended, at least not on matters of theory. However,
I'm sure that I give offense much more readily, as I tend towards
intellectual extreme ideas and rhetoric.
M Arnold
"Charles M. Hagmaier" <kyo...@home.com> wrote:
> M Arnold wrote:
>> Mishima's 'party' and suicide wasn't a serious military move, but it
>> is considered by some to be the major turning point inpost-warJapan.
> Really. Why?
I'd have to leave the details of that to the history and lit majors...
I do know that the 70s brought on a general decline in Japanese cinema
at the same time that anime really started to take off. I'm not sure,
but I think the porn industry really started to blossom then too.
> Well, that, and the underlying Shinto aesthetics of transience and
> Buddhist nihilism.
I think the west gives "religions" like Shinto and Buddhism too much
credit, probably due to European religious history and experience.
> The point being, that even in their received Western influences,
> Americans and Japanese don't have much in common. Their basic
Hmm... let's not exaggerate the importance of western influence in
Japan, though. It didn't totally re-define the culture, it was adapted
to be used in a culture that was already there. I don't mean to lend
credibility to overblown notions of Japanese tradition either, though.
What *Japanese* thinking can we trace Japanese political philosophy
back to?
M Arnold
"Charles M. Hagmaier" <kyo...@home.com> wrote:
> M Arnold wrote:
> The Empire is a different story from the Republic. The Empire is
> distinctly racial in ideology and composition - mostly because the
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Japan is a different story from
Europe too...
> Like I said, the founding of the Republic could be the idiot's
> version of the American story.
Creative license, I guess.
> Of course, it could also be the founding of Israel. :)
It could, but why? Japan's got a good reason to write about America
and Europe in war stories.
I've been noticing some weird mentions of "India" in films and TV
recently too, though. India played a pretty signifcant role in
"Pride"...
> It's been a long time since I've seriously watched Yamato. If I
> remember correctly, the Gamelon were some kind of odd blending of
> Germans and Americans - all of the military-naval beefiness of the
That book I'm reading says the bad guys in Yamato are definitely
supposed to be Nazi Germany... which ends up rewriting Japan as the
enemy of Germany in WWII...
> Be interesting to read. What's the book? For one thing, the TV
It's called "Godzilla, Yamato and our Democracy." It's in Japanese and
it might be out of print (I had to special order it and ended up with a
pretty beat-up 'new' copy), but you might be able to get it through
Japanese bookstores overseas.
> series was based on manga by Matsumoto, and not vice-versa, right?
That's what I understand. That's interesting, though -- the director
hasn't even mentioned Matsumoto yet.
> contempt for Lockean ideals. The second Yamato movie is virtually
> a reenactment of the February 26th Incident, ferchristsakes. Or any
> of a half-dozen similar incidents in the early 30's.
Ho-ho... I recorded that the other day. Now I'm looking forward to
seeing it.
> There's backstory filled in later on - the Empire is an ethnically
> cleansed state.
There's Germany again...
> > How are the various political ideologies personified?
> You mean in terms of characters in LoGH? Rheinhard is the
More in the sense of national 'personification'.
John Friese
Danielle <dela...@uswest.net> wrote:
>Nirvana is not the extinction of the self but the moving beyond of the self.
>It is as state of being so far removed from our current state and from the
>stated of the higher 'heavens' that it cannot be defined or explained.
This makes me think of Vernor Vinge's "Singularity", where it is not the
"self" of a single individual that goes beyond definition or explanation,
but an entire culture.
For a better explanation, check out
http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/vinge.html
John L. Friese
fri...@math.arizona.edu
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> Hmm... let's not exaggerate the importance of western influence in
> Japan, though. It didn't totally re-define the culture, it was
> adapted to be used in a culture that was already there.
Well, I don't know how much I'd buy into that argument. The Meiji
Restoration was, literally, a revolution. An overthrow of an old
order, the suppression of a class structure, and the commitment to
economic and technological upheaval. The new philosophies and
ideas were part of the demonstration of proponents' commitment to this
program of revolution. The period also saw a redefinition of
prior culture amounting to a massive creative act. The status of the
emperor, the relation of the religious traditions (the beginning of
a program of tacit suppression of Buddhist influence in favor of a
newly codified Emperor-centric Shinto system). In many ways, the
Meiji Restoration looks a hell of a lot like the conversion of Prussia
to the German Empire at about the same time. Both the Second Reich
and Meiji Japan ransacked their past in successful attempts to
support new political entities with a tapestry of rich historical
precedent. Of course, Japan had the benefit of a true island
nationality and ethnic isolation, whereas the creation of the
Deutschesvolk was a fairly imaginative act.
> What *Japanese* thinking can we trace Japanese political philosophy
> back to?
>
Difficult question, really. Shinto ideas of transience, really.
A certain moral relativism not common in Western societies prior to
Nietzsche. The Japanese latched onto the ideas of individualism in
a way that really is quite singular - very solipsistic.
M Arnold
"Charles M. Hagmaier" <kyo...@home.com> wrote:
> Well, I don't know how much I'd buy into that argument. The Meiji
> Restoration was, literally, a revolution. An overthrow of an old
I'll see if I can find some other definitions of this in texts I've got
at home. I don't think I've ever seen it referred to as a
revolution... maybe a failed revolution.
> support new political entities with a tapestry of rich historical
> precedent. Of course, Japan had the benefit of a true island
Politicians and academics are still looking for that rich historical
precedent.
> nationality and ethnic isolation, whereas the creation of the
> Deutschesvolk was a fairly imaginative act.
I'd say it's a fairly imaginative act in Japan too...
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> "Charles M. Hagmaier" <kyo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, I don't know how much I'd buy into that argument. The Meiji
> > Restoration was, literally, a revolution. An overthrow of an old
>
> I'll see if I can find some other definitions of this in texts I've
> got at home. I don't think I've ever seen it referred to as a
> revolution... maybe a failed revolution.
>
Well, failure and success is all a matter of goals. By liberal
standards, yes, Meiji was a failure. By socialist or anarchist
standards, hell yes it was a failure. From the standpoint of the
grunts-in-the-trenches who wanted a return to the good old days,
yes again. But if you look at it from the power-elites prospective,
and the new economic class, then it was a successful conservative
revolution. It achieved its goals of military self-sufficiency and
technological parity.
>
> > nationality and ethnic isolation, whereas the creation of the
> > Deutschesvolk was a fairly imaginative act.
>
> I'd say it's a fairly imaginative act in Japan too...
>
>
What I meant was that the German people is pretty much a creation of
the German Romantic movement. The lack of firm borders and strong
distinctions between the Slavs in the east and the French & Dutch
in the West meant that, as an ethnic/cultural bloc, Germany was more
of a notion than a reality prior to about 1800 or so. Japan, on the
other hand, is an island nation, with a fairly consistent (or at
least as consistent as possible given Shinto's animist character)
cultural texture.
--