If fansubbing were dead...
garfangle
fansubbing to stoke demand for the product. If fansubbing was
attacked as harshly as the RIAA/MPAA does with music/movies would the
anime industry in the US/NA be much smaller than it is and not have
enjoyed the growth it has had? It is my guess that the ratio of
fansubbed projects downloaded to actual sales is at least 2:1 and
higher among core fans (except for broadcast tv popular shows like
Pokemon). Moreover, studios can know before they license a series
what its potential demand may be.
Lord Craxton
"garfangle" <garf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48ef815c.04050...@posting.google.com...
Arguable, but I doubt it. Before Toonami really hit big, when the community
was small, that line of reasoning made sense. But since then, the community
has changed. I would guess the majority of fans don't make use of fansubs
anymore, instead they watch CN, they browse the racks at Sam Goody, they go
to cons. As for promoting the sales of specific series, it doesn't really
because 99% of anything that's worth a damn these days is quickly liscenced,
and eventually released.
Now let's answer the REAL question. No, you don't have any excuses. You
can't clear your conscience by thinking that you're promoting the growth of
anime, because anime doesn't grow that way anymore. Even assuming it does,
you're still not justified in lapsing to replace fansubs with official
copies. Now, I don't know what your practices are, and I won't ask you to
tell me either. But if they trouble you enough that you have to go asking
for excuses, then you're probably better off just following your conscience.
As someone once said, Everyone knows the right thing to do, the problem is
noone wants to do it.
-Lord Craxton
Blade
news:48ef815c.04050...@posting.google.com:
> I think it is common knowledge that many studios implicitly encourage
> fansubbing to stoke demand for the product. If fansubbing was
I think you are full of shit.
Blade
Ethan Hammond
> fansubbing to stoke demand for the product.
Actually that is just something people who fansub or download tell
themselves
to justify there behavior.
>If fansubbing was
> attacked as harshly as the RIAA/MPAA does with music/movies would the
> anime industry in the US/NA be much smaller than it is and not have
> enjoyed the growth it has had? It is my guess that the ratio of
> fansubbed projects downloaded to actual sales is at least 2:1 and
> higher among core fans (except for broadcast tv popular shows like
> Pokemon). Moreover, studios can know before they license a series
> what its potential demand may be.
There is no need for fansubbing in this day and age. A problem with your
line of thought is that if a show has been overly distributed by fansubbers
then the companies are not going to make as much money off it as they could
of if no one had been giving the show away for free.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
arnold kim
I think the fact that the industry is smaller makes fansubbing more
damaging.
There are a lot of people who download, or in the past, "bought" fansubs and
continued to support the legitimate release when it came to the US. I doubt
this is the majority of fansub owners.
Arnold Kim
Demetrius Zeluff
news:S9tlc.105448$Gd3.25...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
[snip]
> There are a lot of people who download, or in the past, "bought"
> fansubs and continued to support the legitimate release when it came
> to the US. I doubt this is the majority of fansub owners.
But the important question is how many fansub owners would buy the dvd's if
fansubs were not available.
--
Kill-filers:
My screen name changes,
My email address doesn't.
sanjian
> "garfangle" <garf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> I think it is common knowledge that many studios implicitly encourage
>> fansubbing to stoke demand for the product.
>
> Actually that is just something people who fansub or download tell
> themselves
> to justify there behavior.
It was true back in the age of Eva, when studios learned that they could
make lots of money off a show that was fansubbed, and changed their
thinking. However, this is no longer the age of Eva. As has been pointed
out, if it's good, it's probably coming out anyways.
Do I still watch fansubs? Yeah. Do I replace them? Definately. Sometimes
there's a lapse because I didn't know something came out, like Comic Party.
None the less, I'll be replacing that on my next anime purchase. Bastards
took me by surprise.
Michelle Klein-Hass
> "arnold kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in
> news:S9tlc.105448$Gd3.25...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
>
> [snip]
>
>> There are a lot of people who download, or in the past, "bought"
>> fansubs and continued to support the legitimate release when it came to
>> the US. I doubt this is the majority of fansub owners.
>
> But the important question is how many fansub owners would buy the dvd's
> if fansubs were not available.
I am a buyer. I now have a legit copy of the Region 1 Haibane Renmei,
which I was introduced to in fansub, and I am in the process of acquiring
Nuku Nuku TV, which again I was introduced to in fansub. I was given
fansubs of Azumanga Daioh, which proved to be less than interesting to me
so I haven't bothered with ADV's release of it. I destroyed my fansub copy
when I determined I wouldn't go through with buying it.
I never got my hands on Texhnolyze in fansub but I would have loved to
have gotten to see it. Since Texhnolyze is on its way to release through
Geneon/Pioneer I might or might not buy when it comes out. I might wait
for a low-cost reissue, like the Lain reissue which is dead solid perfect
and at a fair price.
That's just me, I guess. I'm keeping the HR fansubs because there are
little bits and pieces like the Haibane Fashion Tips thingy at the end
which never made it to the R1 release. The NNTV fansubs are going to be
wiped off my hard drive today...I have to backup this machine and I don't
consider those especially vital. Especially since the ADV Films subtitles
are infinitely better than anything the fansubbers did, and since the
transfers are way clearer than vidcaps from several generations old VHS
tape could ever be.
This said, I don't think fansubbing has much time to live. Eventually the
Japanese media companies will put the smack down on fansubbers. It's only
a matter of time. With the kind of paranoia that exists now in US and
European Big Media it's only a matter of time before Japanese Big Media
gets the "Protect Intellectual Property At All Costs" religion.
--
Ms. Geek (Michelle Klein-Hass)...terrorizing Usenet since 1992!
Charter member, SPCM, (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Menchi)
"Families of Japan, it is not too late to enjoy Turkey with Gravy." -- Kaga
Animeg3282
when they fansub stuff that is certainly coming out. For example, some shows
are almost pre liscenced when they come out in Japan. Why fansub them? Fansub
something like more Onii-sama E or Comet-san, something that is good, but a bit
too nichey to come out immediately(although nowadays fan faves and some of the
newer shiner shows will typically come out, meaning that there is even less
reason for fansubs nowadays). I don't have much cash for anime. I have to
borrow people's stuff, I have to buy anime when it's on sale, I have to get
used DVDs, but you don't hear me bitching that the companies price too high
just because I only work so many hours a week, and can't get every single DVD
that comes out...
<plug> If you want to help, buy some buttons. See sig </plug>
--
http://www.cassowarybuttons.com <--- Buttons for everyone.
My blogs:
http://buttonmakersball.blogspot.com <--button making
http://animeg.blogspot.com <--rants on everything
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>Nowdays, it's more like a cheap substitute I think. What I really don't like is
>when they fansub stuff that is certainly coming out. For example, some shows
>are almost pre liscenced when they come out in Japan. Why fansub them?
Because fansubbing has ceased (for many people) to be about "bringing
anime to the fans" -- it's about fame for the fansubbing groups and
speed.
-Chris
Shaun Baker
<msge...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 May 2004 12:34:32 -0500, Demetrius Zeluff opined:
>
>> "arnold kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in
>> news:S9tlc.105448$Gd3.25...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> There are a lot of people who download, or in the past, "bought"
>>> fansubs and continued to support the legitimate release when it came to
>>> the US. I doubt this is the majority of fansub owners.
>>
>> But the important question is how many fansub owners would buy the dvd's
>> if fansubs were not available.
The other side of that question is how many of the fansub owners would
buy the DVD's even if the fansubs weren't available - that's what I
think the RIAA is screwing up on by making the legitimate buyers
suffer for lost sales they would never have made. Another question
that should be asked(of course this is for the first type<from
Japanese TV broadcast> of digisubs only) is how many sales are lost
from a sub-only fansub of lesser quality than the DVD? With the very
apparant sub-only titles don't sell, arguing against this type of
fansub seems to be missing the point, if you can't sell a title
sub-only how would a sub-only digisub hurt sales? Obviously the DVD
rips and even more so the dubs are a lot more likely to be used as
replacement product.
>This said, I don't think fansubbing has much time to live. Eventually the
>Japanese media companies will put the smack down on fansubbers. It's only
>a matter of time. With the kind of paranoia that exists now in US and
>European Big Media it's only a matter of time before Japanese Big Media
>gets the "Protect Intellectual Property At All Costs" religion.
Japan doesn't seem to have the legal(ie sue anyone for anything)
mentality of the US. The more legitimate and logical target of the
Japanese big media if they go after someone are the local traders the
US fansubbers get the raw files from. These would be the replacement
product for the Japanese market.
The big problem here from the US market perspective is if the
digi-subbers go away then the only things that will circulate will be
copies of the actually released US product which will put a bigger
dent in the sales than digi-subs ever could(if you got a copy of the
exact file why buy the product - the recording industry is certainly
trying to answer that question).
Shaun
Captain Nerd
Shaun Baker <Endle...@att.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 03 May 2004 15:07:13 -0700, "Michelle Klein-Hass"
> <msge...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 03 May 2004 12:34:32 -0500, Demetrius Zeluff opined:
> >
> >> "arnold kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in
> >> news:S9tlc.105448$Gd3.25...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
>
>
> >This said, I don't think fansubbing has much time to live. Eventually the
> >Japanese media companies will put the smack down on fansubbers. It's only
> >a matter of time. With the kind of paranoia that exists now in US and
> >European Big Media it's only a matter of time before Japanese Big Media
> >gets the "Protect Intellectual Property At All Costs" religion.
>
> Japan doesn't seem to have the legal(ie sue anyone for anything)
> mentality of the US. The more legitimate and logical target of the
> Japanese big media if they go after someone are the local traders the
> US fansubbers get the raw files from. These would be the replacement
> product for the Japanese market.
And from what I've seen, the doujinshi market is rife with illegal
uses of trademarked characters, which would last about as long as
a hummingbird's hard-on here in the States.
Cap.
(... "you mean like Mickey M*WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM*" "Okay, got another
one!")
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Chris Kern
posted the following:
> Another question
>that should be asked(of course this is for the first type<from
>Japanese TV broadcast> of digisubs only) is how many sales are lost
>from a sub-only fansub of lesser quality than the DVD?
This question is becoming moot because recent digisubs are virtually
equal in quality to DVDs (probably they are not quite as good, but the
difference is unlikely to be noticed by non-technophiles). Digisubs
have really changed the landscape of fansubbing and anime -- it used
to be that you had to send off for VHS tapes in a time-consuming
process, and the resulting tapes were often 2nd generation at best and
thus not all that great. DVDs were a big improvement.
But now you can download the digisubs, often only 2 or 3 days after
the original episode airs in Japan. The quality is so good that you
can make DVD rips of them if you want, or you can just save them as
video CDs and watch them on your TV (if you have a player that can do
that). DVDs are no longer attractive *solely* because of quality (for
most people).
-Chris
Ethan Hammond
>
> That's just me, I guess. I'm keeping the HR fansubs because there are
> little bits and pieces like the Haibane Fashion Tips thingy at the end
> which never made it to the R1 release. The NNTV fansubs are going to be
> wiped off my hard drive today...I have to backup this machine and I don't
> consider those especially vital. Especially since the ADV Films subtitles
> are infinitely better than anything the fansubbers did, and since the
> transfers are way clearer than vidcaps from several generations old VHS
> tape could ever be.
Yeah the ADV DVD's are better than the fansubs except they forgot the
different intro for Episode 1 and 2 which makes Ethan sad. And it says
Atsuko Higuchi in the credits.
Lee Ratner
from the old VHS fansubbing seen. The old fansubbers only tackled
titles that they felt had no chance of coming to the United States and
they would stop if the titles were licensed. Many people who had
fansubs would buy the official release when it came out, even if they
had the entire series fansubbed. The new fansubbers seem to be more
arrogant, only wanting cheap and free anime.
sanjian
Even the old school Digisubs were of abysmal quality (and I think that's the
way they should be). The Utena subs that I got from someone on this group
were of such low quality that I could fit the whole series on two CDs.
Sometimes it was all you could to just to see what was going on, sometimes
you couldn't even read the subs. However, -nobody- would believe they were
an acceptable substitute for the real thing (even when it looked like they
had all but given up on the real thing).
sanjian
Oh, there were those who would still use fansubs as the real thing, even
back then, but it was less common, and everybody considered it unethical.
IIRC, Techno Girls has a list of people they wouldn't distribute to because
they found them trying to sell fansubs or bragging they held on to other
fansubs even after commercial release. Granted, Techno Girls wasn't that
big, because they did shoujo titles...
Michael Borgwardt
>>Because fansubbing has ceased (for many people) to be about "bringing
>>anime to the fans" -- it's about fame for the fansubbing groups and
>>speed.
>>
>
> I agree, the current digisub fansubbing seen is very different
> from the old VHS fansubbing seen.
Certainly it is that.
> The old fansubbers only tackled
> titles that they felt had no chance of coming to the United States and
> they would stop if the titles were licensed.
This may be true for some. For others it was in fact a big business that
made them quite a lot of money, and consequently where were NO ethics.
Demetrius Zeluff
news:39td90da90h579l1t...@4ax.com:
>>On Mon, 03 May 2004 12:34:32 -0500, Demetrius Zeluff opined:
>>
>>> But the important question is how many fansub owners would buy the
>>> dvd's if fansubs were not available.
>
> The other side of that question is how many of the fansub owners would
> buy the DVD's even if the fansubs weren't available
Huh?
sanjian
I keep hearing rumor of that, but I certainly didn't see it happening at the
time. Of course, there were your standard bootleggers that have existed in
every industry they possibly could. However, that's no different then the
people who were pirating casette tapes back in the '80s. They also
bootlegged commercially released anime. That hardly even implies that there
were no ethics to the bulk of fansubbers.
Michael Borgwardt
>>This may be true for some. For others it was in fact a big business
>>that made them quite a lot of money, and consequently where were NO
>>ethics.
>
>
> I keep hearing rumor of that, but I certainly didn't see it happening at the
> time.
With how many subbing groups were you involved with intimately enough
to know? Obviously, they wouldn't have told everyone.
> Of course, there were your standard bootleggers that have existed in
> every industry they possibly could.
And where exactly was the difference? I'll give you the subbers who
only requested tapes & SASE, but there *was no* clear-cut difference
as soon as money was involved, just shades of grey.
This posting from 1997 sums it up quite well:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=5e7dcq%24...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com
Aya the Vampire Slayer
>sanjian wrote:
>>>This may be true for some. For others it was in fact a big business
>>>that made them quite a lot of money, and consequently where were NO
>>>ethics.
>>
>> I keep hearing rumor of that, but I certainly didn't see it happening
>> at the time.
>
>With how many subbing groups were you involved with intimately enough
>to know? Obviously, they wouldn't have told everyone.
*cough*whitecross*cough*
But then again, I don't know anyone who's had any good experiences with
them.
>> Of course, there were your standard bootleggers that have existed in
>> every industry they possibly could.
>
>And where exactly was the difference? I'll give you the subbers who
>only requested tapes & SASE, but there *was no* clear-cut difference
>as soon as money was involved, just shades of grey.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but...
Bootleggers generally do not do the subtitling. If anyone were to make a
profit off of it, should it not be ones who expended much time and money
and effort into producing it? Not that anyone should be making money off
of something that doesn't belong to them, but if we're going to argue
morals here...
Bootleggers also tend to charge more, and for Nth generation stuff to
boot (so you get better quality, cheaper prices, and you don't feel as
much of burglar by purchasing directly from the fansubbers?).
Ho hum!
--
"Care must be exorcised when handring Opiticar System as it is apts to
be sticked by dusts and hand-fat." --Japanese Translators
"Keep your fingers off the lens." --Elton Byington, English Translator
James Marshall
>Shaun Baker <Endle...@att.net> wrote in
>news:39td90da90h579l1t...@4ax.com:
>>>On Mon, 03 May 2004 12:34:32 -0500, Demetrius Zeluff opined:
>>>> But the important question is how many fansub owners would buy the
>>>> dvd's if fansubs were not available.
>> The other side of that question is how many of the fansub owners would
>> buy the DVD's even if the fansubs weren't available
>Huh?
I think the point there was that people use the fansubs as a way of
deciding whether or not to buy a title because they can see for themselves
if they like it or not. Without the fansubs and this kind of first hand
knowledge, they'd have to rely on reviews and word of mouth, making their
purchases more of a gamble. And people don't like to waste money. So
without the fansubs, people might buy less because they don't want to
risk their money on something they don't know they'll like.
--
. . . . -- James Marshall (ORI) * ,
,. -- )-- , , . -- )-- , mars...@astro.umd.edu
' ' http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall '''
"Astronomy is a dyslexic's nightmare." , *
Michael Borgwardt
>>With how many subbing groups were you involved with intimately enough
>>to know? Obviously, they wouldn't have told everyone.
>
>
> *cough*whitecross*cough*
Hector's the one one cited most often. A couple of years earlier,
I think.
>>And where exactly was the difference? I'll give you the subbers who
>>only requested tapes & SASE, but there *was no* clear-cut difference
>>as soon as money was involved, just shades of grey.
>
>
> I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but...
>
> Bootleggers generally do not do the subtitling.
And what's that, economically speaking, but one cost factor?
Besides, there was often a separation of subbers and distributors,
and even the distributors that were closely linked to a subbing
group often distributed titles from other groups.
Demetrius Zeluff
news:c78h9l$ecc$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
> In article <Xns94DF98C43C67C...@news-60.giganews.com>
> Demetrius Zeluff <2876...@tmicha.net> writes:
>>Shaun Baker <Endle...@att.net> wrote in
>>news:39td90da90h579l1t...@4ax.com:
>
>>>>On Mon, 03 May 2004 12:34:32 -0500, Demetrius Zeluff opined:
>
>>>>> But the important question is how many fansub owners would buy the
>>>>> dvd's if fansubs were not available.
>
>>> The other side of that question is how many of the fansub owners
>>> would buy the DVD's even if the fansubs weren't available
>
>>Huh?
>
> I think the point
Can you not see that I said something, and then Shaun repeated what I said,
almost exactly, almost word for word?
My Huh? means "whats the difference between what I said, and whta you've
said, which appears to be my words?"
[snip]
Chibi-Light
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Yeah the ADV DVD's are better than the fansubs except they forgot the
>different intro for Episode 1 and 2 which makes Ethan sad. And it says
>Atsuko Higuchi in the credits.
Kinda like Sailor Moon's "Moon Princess Halation" which they subbed
"Elimination" instead of "Halation."
CL
sanjian
> sanjian wrote:
>
>>> This may be true for some. For others it was in fact a big business
>>> that made them quite a lot of money, and consequently where were NO
>>> ethics.
>>
>>
>> I keep hearing rumor of that, but I certainly didn't see it
>> happening at the time.
>
> With how many subbing groups were you involved with intimately enough
> to know? Obviously, they wouldn't have told everyone.
That's hardly proof of it happening on a wide-scale basis. I was personally
involved in only one fansubbing group, but had contacts in several others.
Everyone I dealt with pretty much abhored fansubs-for-profit enough for me
to be reasonably certain that it wasn't going on with them.
>> Of course, there were your standard bootleggers that have existed in
>> every industry they possibly could.
>
> And where exactly was the difference? I'll give you the subbers who
> only requested tapes & SASE, but there *was no* clear-cut difference
> as soon as money was involved, just shades of grey.
Many of the groups still ran a loss, and intentionally so. We didn't figure
stuff like the cost of the LDs, the genloc, the Amiga, or our time into it.
That was all the price we paid for getting to translate Idol Project into
english and show it to our friends. Of course, Carl also insisted that we
not accept money, but instead stuck by the olde way of doing things, which
most of us agreed with. I think "Porno Cartoon Boy," who used our subs, did
charge for them, but at a loss.
However, I will agree that exchanging money for fansubs was the first step
down that slippery slope.
Regarding the link: Wow... there's alot of names I haven't seen in a while.
sanjian
> Aya the Vampire Slayer wrote:
>
>>> With how many subbing groups were you involved with intimately
>>> enough to know? Obviously, they wouldn't have told everyone.
>>
>>
>> *cough*whitecross*cough*
>
> Hector's the one one cited most often. A couple of years earlier,
> I think.
I tend to think that Hecto was the beginning of the end. Still, who can
forget the awful translations. "I get into this room!"
Chris Kern
<haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> posted the following:
>Even the old school Digisubs were of abysmal quality (and I think that's the
>way they should be). The Utena subs that I got from someone on this group
>were of such low quality that I could fit the whole series on two CDs.
I doubt those were "digisubs" -- I think that those were probably VHS
tapes that were converted to a video file format by some converter box
and program.
A digisub is done completely on the computer -- usually the raw is
taken directly into the computer, the subs are added on the computer,
and it's distributed via computer so there is no quality loss from
dealing with things like videocassettes, and the speed can be much
faster.
-Chris
sanjian
Newer ones, yes. But the first digisubs I saw were very much this poor
quality. I guess they didn't make your distinctions then.
Shaun Baker
Sometimes you shouldn't rewrite what you wrote without re-reading what
you are replying to, especially when in hindsight it wasn't even as
good as what was there.
Shaun
Tenchi
news:cptnerd-5ACB0D...@news-50.sjc.giganews.com:
> In article <39td90da90h579l1t...@4ax.com>,
> Shaun Baker <Endle...@att.net> wrote:
>
<Snip>
> And from what I've seen, the doujinshi market is rife with illegal
> uses of trademarked characters, which would last about as long as
> a hummingbird's hard-on here in the States.
>
> Cap.
> (... "you mean like Mickey M*WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM*" "Okay, got
> another one!")
>
Actually by its nature a Doujinshi market here in the US is permitable
as long as its plainly Ovbious its a "Fan Work" A "Pairody" Or a
"Homage" to the series. Ask Al Yankovic A little song called "Amish
Paradice" where he borrowd the music, with out permission. The rap
artist didnt give any permission but becuase it was a "Pariody" acording
to US Law the rap artist cant do a thing about it. Another example
"Vanilla ICE" Riped the sample music to "Under pressure" by Queen. The
won the lawsuit because It wasnt a "Homage" "Fan Work" or a "Pariody"
Corse I think Vanilla Ice is a paridy but thats just my opinion.
Its a thin line, and I've seen US made Doujinshi, its just theres no big
market for it here in the US than it is in Japan. Why buy a fan work
when you can get the Manga at roughly the same price. Just no market
for it.
Heck even in japan its fine, There massive conventions of it. But its a
legal thin line. for the states, but yes their legal as long as they fit
into thoes catagories.
Tenchi
Tenchi
news:48ef815c.04050...@posting.google.com:
> I think it is common knowledge that many studios implicitly encourage
> fansubbing to stoke demand for the product. If fansubbing was
> attacked as harshly as the RIAA/MPAA does with music/movies would the
> anime industry in the US/NA be much smaller than it is and not have
> enjoyed the growth it has had? It is my guess that the ratio of
> fansubbed projects downloaded to actual sales is at least 2:1 and
> higher among core fans (except for broadcast tv popular shows like
> Pokemon). Moreover, studios can know before they license a series
> what its potential demand may be.
This argument actually came up at Ohayocon (www.ohayocon.com) this year
in front of the US anime companies. Several admited to watching the
fansubs, mostly so the Voice actors could get a feel for the characters.
However they DO NOT measure fansubing. In fact the way it was explained
is they look at a Genre in peticular. Say High School romance with
magic users in it. The see how other titles of that do and then decide
if its worth the gamble, and the money needed for the licence. They
balance that with some what of how well the title did in japan.
They could care less if say "Anime X" was all the rave in the P2P, IRC,
Nesgroups, Bittorrents. The only time they care that it is EVEN being
fansubed by whome, is after they buy the licence. Ask any of the
Company heads and reps they will tell you that flat out.
As to Why they do it (Fan sub and etichs)... its a personal thing. Me
personally I watch before I buy. If I think its ok, It gets burned to A
CD probably for me to lug around when i move to be rearly watched again.
If its really good I get the DVDs of it. Most "Hard core" Anime fans
are like this to one extent or another.
But they do NOT TRACK IT or count that into their decision makeing
process. I mean think about it, you know how many Robotech copys I saw
around the net, let alone the older series that all the fans have seen,
they still make their decisions on if the market will buy it, not
weither or not its a popular fansub. Most hard core guys will watch
anything once. And we have all seen some sinkers, then passed thoes
stinkers around to friends so they can enjoy the pain *Cough* Angels Egg
*Cough* It was passed around quite a bit, but I dont know any fan who
owns it. and yes its licenced Ive seen it at media play.
Oh that 2:1... Dont know where you been looking. If I had to guess it
would be about 100:1 of the download. I have a pack rat habbit of not
throwing anything out. HEck I have Ah my goddess the OAV, in VCD, SVCD,
VHS SUB, VHSDUB, HK DVD's, and Animego's DVD's. Why, I'm a fan. I buy
the manga when I can, Follow it when I can. Would I say I'm a AMG fan in
good standing? Yep, I sleep well at night with my Urd plushie hanging in
the window, and a Series 2 figure on the dressor.
As to if fansubing where dead... Its never going to happen untill Japan
releases the DVD's at the same time in both Region 1 and Region 2 wich
isnt going to happen in our life times (It would be nice) Then the
fansubers would dry up to be replaced by basic Ripper and Pirate groups.
Its the simple fact, Fans love Anime, they have the tools and the man
power to watch, translate and share easily. They are going to do it and
you can scream etics till your blue in the face. Its been this way in
Digisubs since fansubing in the VHS days. It hasnt changed and it wont.
-------
On another note:
It doesnt bother me in the least that the fansub groups are getting
bigger and its easert to get a fansub now adays than it used to be. I'm
still going to buy the DVD's I like and to heck with the rest of them.
In fact I got chewed out buy the gentleman who produced Viz's Ranma,
when I let it slip I still had Maison Ikkoku Fansubs, and I wasnt going
to buy the VHS version. He explained why the VHS Sales are down (2 eps
on a VHS tape at 30$ a pop... on a 96 episode series that mainly had one
big story arch) not to mention they STOPED at 36. (Cant understand why
they arent selling can you, and they only sold 300 units <Across the US)
in a month.
I told him when the DVD's would come out, cheaply, (sub only like they
where talking about craming 6 eps on a dis) I would happily buy them.
It just goes to show you that there are more ways to look at this mess
than one. In his eyes I was "Lost profits" why I wasnt buying the VHS
at 2 eps a tape for $30. To mine, I wasnt about to spend exorbiants
amout of money for it. Expecally for VHS.
So who was right. You can say morally he was but if i hadnt had the
fansubs in the first place I wouldnt be thinking about buying it. But
on the other hand, I have seen the fansubs and I'm not buying the VHS
version at $30 for 2 eps.
What does this boil down to? I asked the magic question. "Why did you
pick up the licence for Maison Ikkoku"
"It was offered at the right place at the right time for the right
money" There was no talk of "Its really popular with the fansub
groups... Good luck finding Fansubs of it now. It was a risk that the
took, unfortunatly the subject matter isnt as popular here in the states
and its failed miserably. But if we go with your concusion, it should
have been selling like hotcakes.
Ethan Hammond
>
> Actually by its nature a Doujinshi market here in the US is permitable
> as long as its plainly Ovbious its a "Fan Work" A "Pairody" Or a
> "Homage" to the series. Ask Al Yankovic A little song called "Amish
> Paradice" where he borrowd the music, with out permission. The rap
> artist didnt give any permission but becuase it was a "Pariody" acording
> to US Law the rap artist cant do a thing about it. Another example
> "Vanilla ICE" Riped the sample music to "Under pressure" by Queen. The
> won the lawsuit because It wasnt a "Homage" "Fan Work" or a "Pariody"
> Corse I think Vanilla Ice is a paridy but thats just my opinion.
Actually that is not true about Amish Paradise. Coolie did give him
permission
and Yankovic paid Coolie for the rights to use the song just like Weird Al
does with every song he paradies. He has no idea why Coolie got pissed off
about it later and tried to use him or did sue him and it got thrown out of
court.
Lee Ratner
Which of the old fansubbing groups were run as big busineses and
how much do you mean by a lot of money, enough not to get a legitimate
job except as some sort of cover?
Chris Mattern
My understanding of the story is that Al didn't actually talk to Coolio
personally, but rather whatever member of his staff was responsible for
managing his song rights. Said staff member sold Al the rights and
assured him that Coolio had OK'd it. But when Amish Paradise came out,
Coolio said he'd never OK'd or even heard about it, and was pissed.
--
Christopher Mattern
"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
Lee Ratner
One thing that destroyed the old fansubbers was the knowledge that
the professional companies could do a better job at translations most
of the time. Another thing was the fact that more and more
professional releases were coming out. Its interesting but the thing
that really saved fansubs was recordable DVDs and high speed internet.
If there was no high speed internet and no DVDs, I'd think that
fansubbing would be more or less dead by now.
Farix
> Actually that is not true about Amish Paradise. Coolie did give him
> permission
> and Yankovic paid Coolie for the rights to use the song just like Weird Al
> does with every song he paradies. He has no idea why Coolie got pissed off
> about it later and tried to use him or did sue him and it got thrown out of
> court.
Actually, it was the record company that gave Yankovic permission. I
believe Coolie was left out of the loop on this one.
Farix
Farix
I disagree. Fansubers would not have been affected by the quality of
"studio" translations at all. That was because the fansub translations
came out first before the rights were picked up by someone. It was
digisubs, high-speed internet and the rights being acquired far more
quickly that killed off the tape fansubers and their distributors.
Farix
sanjian
That was my understanding. Supposedly, Weird Al smoothed it over with the
artist, who then dealt with his own company.
sanjian
> "sanjian" <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> message news:<9iTlc.13968$pJ1.4662@lakeread02>...
>> I tend to think that Hecto was the beginning of the end. Still, who
>> can
>> forget the awful translations. "I get into this room!"
>
> One thing that destroyed the old fansubbers was the knowledge that
> the professional companies could do a better job at translations most
> of the time. Another thing was the fact that more and more
That sort of fell apart when Tomadachi's fansub of Fushigi Yuugi beat out
the commercial releases that year for "Best Subtitled Production." Even
now, I often prefer the fansubbed translations to the commercial. If it's a
bad enough disparity, the commercial release may even sit on my shelf,
completely unwatched, just so I can justify holding onto the fansub.
Justin
Recordable DVDs barely play into it.
ender
> As to if fansubing where dead... Its never going to happen untill Japan
> releases the DVD's at the same time in both Region 1 and Region 2 wich
No, not the DVDs, the show would have to be released on the TV in both
regions at the same time (assuming we're not talking about OVAs). And even
then, there are still some non-english subbing groups...
--
ender
begin .sig
I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your's and let me spread!
end
David Watson
There's also the question of who he actually got permission from, since
the Music of "Gangsta's Paradise" is basically a loop of Stevie Wonder's
"Pastime Paradise" (from Songs in the Key of Life).
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (_Stretcher_ CD-R--sevcom.com)
Frezier Balzoff (aka Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.ottawa-anime.org/~eyevocal/
Deworm yourself: *www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.no...@mm.html*
Ken Arromdee
sanjian <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>That sort of fell apart when Tomadachi's fansub of Fushigi Yuugi beat out
>the commercial releases that year for "Best Subtitled Production." Even
>now, I often prefer the fansubbed translations to the commercial. If it's a
>bad enough disparity, the commercial release may even sit on my shelf,
>completely unwatched, just so I can justify holding onto the fansub.
Wouldn't doing that just encourage commercial companies to make bad
translations, since they would then see that translating worse than the
fansub has no effect on their bottom line at all?
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
(DVDs/manga/games for sale. http://www.rahul.net/arromdee/sale.html)
Tikritis: "Saddam is in our hearts! Saddam is in our blood!"
Americans/Iraqi Police: "Saddam is in our jail!"
sanjian
> In article <8X6mc.17597$pJ1.11633@lakeread02>,
> sanjian <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> That sort of fell apart when Tomadachi's fansub of Fushigi Yuugi
>> beat out the commercial releases that year for "Best Subtitled
>> Production." Even now, I often prefer the fansubbed translations to
>> the commercial. If it's a bad enough disparity, the commercial
>> release may even sit on my shelf, completely unwatched, just so I
>> can justify holding onto the fansub.
>
> Wouldn't doing that just encourage commercial companies to make bad
> translations, since they would then see that translating worse than
> the fansub has no effect on their bottom line at all?
Possibly, but I don't see an alternative I like. I won't keep the fansubs
without buying the US release. I could trash the fansubs and not buy the
product, and I've certainly done that before, but for some series, I'm just
not willing to do that either.
Megane
czar...@aol.com (Lee Ratner) wrote:
> One thing that destroyed the old fansubbers was the knowledge that
> the professional companies could do a better job at translations most
> of the time. Another thing was the fact that more and more
> professional releases were coming out. Its interesting but the thing
> that really saved fansubs was recordable DVDs and high speed internet.
> If there was no high speed internet and no DVDs, I'd think that
> fansubbing would be more or less dead by now.
s/recordable DVDs/DivX .AVIs/
Lord Craxton
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:jT2mc.38362$Xj6.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
My personal thoughts on the matter was that Weird Al, being a white guy,
just doesn't understand the subtle aspect of Hip-Hop promotion called
"Beef"...
-Lord Craxton
Ethan Hammond
Oh well he still got his money so he should quit his complaining!!!!
sanjian
> "Farix" <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> Actually that is not true about Amish Paradise. Coolie did give him
>>> permission
>>> and Yankovic paid Coolie for the rights to use the song just like
>>> Weird Al does with every song he paradies. He has no idea why
>>> Coolie got pissed off about it later and tried to use him or did
>>> sue him and it got thrown out of court.
>>
>> Actually, it was the record company that gave Yankovic permission. I
>> believe Coolie was left out of the loop on this one.
>
> Oh well he still got his money so he should quit his complaining!!!!
He did, after he and Wierd Al talked. Up to that point, he had every right
to bitch.
Justin
No, he didn't. Weird Al got the rights before he made the song. There's
no leeway at all.
Michael Borgwardt
>>This may be true for some. For others it was in fact a big business that
>>made them quite a lot of money, and consequently where were NO ethics.
>
>
> Which of the old fansubbing groups were run as big busineses and
> how much do you mean by a lot of money, enough not to get a legitimate
> job except as some sort of cover?
As mentioned in other postings, persistent rumor had it this was what happened
with Hector, and others charged just as high prices. Of course it was always the
others who were "bootleggers" instead of "fansubbers", while their own prices
were always justified. Most probably never *thought* of themselves as being a
business and making profits, but that's what there *were*, once subbing and
distribution became different operations and distributors churned out hundreds
of tapes per week using equipment that cost thousands of dollars.
sanjian
> sanjian wrote on [Thu, 6 May 2004 08:36:00 -0400]:
>> Ethan Hammond wrote:
>>> "Farix" <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> Actually, it was the record company that gave Yankovic permission.
>>>> I believe Coolie was left out of the loop on this one.
>>>
>>> Oh well he still got his money so he should quit his complaining!!!!
>>
>> He did, after he and Wierd Al talked. Up to that point, he had
>> every right to bitch.
>>
>
> No, he didn't. Weird Al got the rights before he made the song.
> There's
> no leeway at all.
Take a step back and breathe.
Until he found out what was going on (which I believe was when he contacted
Al), all he knew was his song was being used and he didn't give permission.
That's reason to bitch.
ender
> Until he found out what was going on (which I believe was when he contacted
> Al), all he knew was his song was being used and he didn't give permission.
> That's reason to bitch.
The problem is, that he gave up the rights to his songs when he signed with
the record company - the artists don't own the rights to _their_ works, the
record company does. The record company can do whatever they want with
those songs, and the artist cannot complain.
Avatar
Illustrative example of the complexities of modern copyright law.
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons anime licensing is so
complicated - in an environment where a single show may have a lot of
different people's copyrighted work involved, you HAVE to make sure
everybody is on the same page or you can run into big ol' problems.
Avatar
D B Malmquist
Didn't Media Blasters get into trouble this way by dubbing the
first OP to "Rurouni Kenshin", only to later learn they didn't
have permission to do so? I think I read somewhere that the
Japanese rightsholder forced them to remove the song dub after
the first few DVDs had come out.
- dbm (hmmm, maybe you're the wrong person to ask...)
No Name
<arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>"garfangle" <garf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:48ef815c.04050...@posting.google.com...
>> I think it is common knowledge that many studios implicitly encourage
>> fansubbing to stoke demand for the product. If fansubbing was
>> attacked as harshly as the RIAA/MPAA does with music/movies would the
>> anime industry in the US/NA be much smaller than it is and not have
>> enjoyed the growth it has had? It is my guess that the ratio of
>> fansubbed projects downloaded to actual sales is at least 2:1 and
>> higher among core fans (except for broadcast tv popular shows like
>> Pokemon). Moreover, studios can know before they license a series
>> what its potential demand may be.
>
>I think the fact that the industry is smaller makes fansubbing more
>damaging.
>
>There are a lot of people who download, or in the past, "bought" fansubs and
>continued to support the legitimate release when it came to the US. I doubt
>this is the majority of fansub owners.
I'm sort of both on this one. I've bought a few DVDs, one of them
being Read or Die. I don't think I would have made this purchase had I
not seen the fansub first.
I also have the SAHA episodes of Excel Saga, but I'm working on
getting the entire ADV set.
David Oldridge
><arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>"garfangle" <garf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:48ef815c.04050...@posting.google.com...
>>> I think it is common knowledge that many studios implicitly encourage
>>> fansubbing to stoke demand for the product. If fansubbing was
>>> attacked as harshly as the RIAA/MPAA does with music/movies would the
>>> anime industry in the US/NA be much smaller than it is and not have
>>> enjoyed the growth it has had? It is my guess that the ratio of
>>> fansubbed projects downloaded to actual sales is at least 2:1 and
>>> higher among core fans (except for broadcast tv popular shows like
>>> Pokemon). Moreover, studios can know before they license a series
>>> what its potential demand may be.
>>
>>I think the fact that the industry is smaller makes fansubbing more
>>damaging.
>>
>>There are a lot of people who download, or in the past, "bought" fansubs and
>>continued to support the legitimate release when it came to the US. I doubt
>>this is the majority of fansub owners.
Interesting math here. Let's see, we have...
the number of people who'd supposedly buy a commercial release, just because
they'd never see a fansub
MINUS
those who'd instead download a DVD rip, or make their own from a borrowed copy
MINUS
every current sale to an ethical person, who already saw or has the fansub, and
made the purchase because of it (including those who only got the fansub
initially as a minor curiousity).
Really, I don't see what could be preventing someone who'd buy a
commercial title after seeing a fansub tape, from buying a commercial title
after seeing a fansub file. And since there's no way to measure the number of
people who don't buy _because_ they download fansubs, against the number of
people who'd hypothetically buy because they _couldn't_ download fansubs, what's
left but theories and opinions?
"Nn I I eh er a I I n was n n n do I believe te pe te it depends on the nature of the question."
-- Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin deftly deflecting questions on the Quebec sponsorship scandal
Blade
in news:6qbu90pv4335q9n4u...@4ax.com:
Common sense. Most people will not pay money for what they can get for
free.
Also, experience. Even those of us who don't know enough anime fans in
person to know several with large caches of fansubs (of either type) and
not very many commercial releases, or have an unusual circle of friends
where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very group that FAR more
people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
buy anything they get in fansub format.
Blade
--
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
The Bearer Of The Long .Sig, "That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu
Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In It Somewhere"
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com
- More comedy per random image gallery page than the market leaders!
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/kaliashrine.htm
- Kalia rules. Oh yes, it's true. It's damn true.
"If it sucks, it will at least suck for DIFFERENT REASONS from previous
self-insertion fics. That is our promise to you!" - Blade and Epsilon
hype their latest masterpiece of fanfiction.
Captain Nerd
Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very group that FAR more
> people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
> buy anything they get in fansub format.
State the numbers. Otherwise, this is mere assertion.
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Andrew Hollingbury
"Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
news:cptnerd-86D9BE...@news-50.sjc.giganews.com...
> In article <Xns94E58DF84A...@66.185.95.104>,
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very group that FAR more
> > people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
> > buy anything they get in fansub format.
>
> State the numbers. Otherwise, this is mere assertion.
>
> Cap.
Do you buy everything you've watched on fansub? I certainly don't - count
me as one of Blade's numbers. I buy a fair chunk of them, yes, but there's
no way (unless compelled by law) you're making me buy anything with
Hanaukyou Maid Tai La Verite Episode 1 on!
Can you state how many people DO buy everything? If you can't state numbers
to prove your point, it's just as flimsy as Blade's - and even though I'm a
digisub watcher I agree with him entirely.
Andrew H
Rob Kelk
>David Oldridge <david.oldridge200...@rogers.com> wrote
>in news:6qbu90pv4335q9n4u...@4ax.com:
<snip>
>> Really, I don't see what could be preventing someone who'd buy
>> a
>> commercial title after seeing a fansub tape, from buying a
>> commercial title after seeing a fansub file. And since there's no
>> way to measure the number of people who don't buy _because_ they
>> download fansubs, against the number of people who'd hypothetically
>> buy because they _couldn't_ download fansubs, what's left but
>> theories and opinions?
>
>Common sense. Most people will not pay money for what they can get for
>free.
I wish I had read this before coming over to visit earlier today, Blade
- I could have brought along my copy of the Harvard study that shows
that there's no statistical correlation between downloading and
purchasing of music. Granted, that's domestic music and this is
imported television episodes, but from what I've read of the report (it
gets to be heavy going around page 14, so I haven't made it through all
40-some pages yet), I see no reason why the results wouldn't generalize.
They are both luxury entertainment items, after all.
The same "common sense" that tells you people are miserly tells me that
people want to play by the rules. We're both demonstrably wrong, but
IMHO both principles are sound in most cases.
>Also, experience. Even those of us who don't know enough anime fans in
>person to know several with large caches of fansubs (of either type) and
>not very many commercial releases, or have an unusual circle of friends
>where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very group that FAR more
>people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
>buy anything they get in fansub format.
I'll admit to not buying everything I saw as fansubs, but that breaks
down into three groups: (a) titles that haven't been released yet (e.g.
"Princess Tutu", "One") that I intend to buy if and when they're
released, (b) titles I didn't like (e.g. "Maison Ikkoku") that I didn't
continue to get past the first tape, and (c) titles that I haven't been
able to pick up because the store can't or won't keep them in stock
(e.g. "Noir"). (I know that the third group is questionable, since I
can always ask for a special order - I'm including it out of honesty.)
Of the (very few) people that I know who have "large caches of fansubs",
the shows that they don't also have prosubbed are in the first two
groups I listed above.
I think that we notice the people who don't buy the prosubs (or produbs)
for the same reason we notice the world-record athletes - they're
sufficiently unusual to be memorable.
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
Captain Nerd
"Andrew Hollingbury" <a.holl...@ukonlineOHNO.co.uk> wrote:
> "Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
> news:cptnerd-86D9BE...@news-50.sjc.giganews.com...
> > In article <Xns94E58DF84A...@66.185.95.104>,
> > Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very group that FAR more
> > > people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
> > > buy anything they get in fansub format.
> >
> > State the numbers. Otherwise, this is mere assertion.
> Can you state how many people DO buy everything? If you can't state numbers
> to prove your point, it's just as flimsy as Blade's - and even though I'm a
> digisub watcher I agree with him entirely.
*I* made no assertion at all, nor did I state a "point". Blade
made the assertion, he's responsible for backing that up. If he
can't, it's JAWAG with no basis in fact.
Oak
I don't have any hard numbers to add to this discussion, just some
personal observations...
I can only afford to buy the things that I know I'll watch more than once.
Otherwise I rent or watch fansubs. Yes, I watch fansubs that I know I'll
never buy, in fact I watch things that I don't even like, MoO being the
latest POS that I hate but still can't stop watching.
Which leads to my point, Anime is TOO EXPENSIVE. I won't pretend to
understand the economics of the business, but here are a few points that
you can flame me on.
[1] I really don't want to hear an English dub, in fact I hate it. I
assume anime would be somewhat cheaper if the US companies didn't have to
pay voice actors.
[2] I don't give a rat's ass about fancy packaging, fancy menus, and
"extra" features. I'd really like to just get cheap copies of the original
Japanese releases (but I won't buy bootlegs).
[3] I just bought season five of BTVS, six DVS, 22 episodes for less than
$40.00 (new, retail). Yes, I know that the economics are different, but it
makes the $29.00 I just spent for the last 4 eps of KKNJ look like a bad
ripoff (especially since they sucked). BTW, I bought KKNJ DVDS after
watching fansubs and I'm buying all the BTVS DVDS even though I have all
the eps on SVCDS.
[4] For me the ideal situation would be to buy the Japanese DVDS for $10
to $12 per disc. Not enough profit for the US distributors? Who knows? It
works for the movie industry.
[5] If the unsubbed DVDS were cheaply available in the correct region
format, the fansub groups could just release their translations as
separate files. No copyright violation required.
[6] Maybe the answer is for the US distributors to sell advertising on the
DVDS! I wouldn't mind if there was an unskippable ad at the start and in
the middle of each episode. I assume that's the way they air in Japan
(maybe a stupid assumption on my part).
Thanks for providing a really interesting discussion. I hope this doesn't
piss off anyone.
OAK
Blade
news:pan.2004.05.11....@Big.Tree:
>
> I don't have any hard numbers to add to this discussion, just some
> personal observations...
>
> I can only afford to buy the things that I know I'll watch more than
> once. Otherwise I rent or watch fansubs. Yes, I watch fansubs that I
> know I'll never buy, in fact I watch things that I don't even like,
> MoO being the latest POS that I hate but still can't stop watching.
>
> Which leads to my point, Anime is TOO EXPENSIVE. I won't pretend to
Thanks, dude. I love it when people prove my point.
I'm not going to bother arguing with the rest, though, because after all,
you just provided another sterling example for me and it would thus be
uncharitable for me to respond to the other things you said.
Chibi-Light
>Thanks, dude. I love it when people prove my point.
>
>I'm not going to bother arguing with the rest, though, because after all,
>you just provided another sterling example for me and it would thus be
>uncharitable for me to respond to the other things you said.
Hey Blade. Ethan has proved your point WRONG just cause he never
watches fansubs and always buys or rents. I guess that means you're
wrong. Hmmmmm...
CL
Blade
news:40a03635...@News.Individual.NET:
> On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:57:19 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>David Oldridge <david.oldridge200...@rogers.com> wrote
>>in news:6qbu90pv4335q9n4u...@4ax.com:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Really, I don't see what could be preventing someone who'd
>>> buy a
>>> commercial title after seeing a fansub tape, from buying a
>>> commercial title after seeing a fansub file. And since there's no
>>> way to measure the number of people who don't buy _because_ they
>>> download fansubs, against the number of people who'd
>>> hypothetically buy because they _couldn't_ download fansubs,
>>> what's left but theories and opinions?
>>
>>Common sense. Most people will not pay money for what they can get
>>for free.
>
> I wish I had read this before coming over to visit earlier today,
> Blade - I could have brought along my copy of the Harvard study that
> shows that there's no statistical correlation between downloading
> and purchasing of music. Granted, that's domestic music and this is
One study does not make something a fact, and I find that very difficult
to believe. Everyone I know who has access to mp3s uses them instead of
buying CDs on a regular basis. EVERYONE. Including, I might add, you.
And yes, me too.
> imported television episodes, but from what I've read of the report
> (it gets to be heavy going around page 14, so I haven't made it
> through all 40-some pages yet), I see no reason why the results
> wouldn't generalize. They are both luxury entertainment items, after
> all.
And yet most people on this group who've been in one of the endless
iterations of this topic admit they've watched fansubs and not gotten the
series. So once again, sorry, I don't believe it.
> The same "common sense" that tells you people are miserly tells me
> that people want to play by the rules. We're both demonstrably
Which is why things don't get stolen if there's no protection mechanism
against it? Pshaw. People will inherently take for free if they can.
Not everyone, but a goodly portion of them. Especially in the culture of
"you are ENTITLED to free shit, and The Man is trying to keep it from
you" that has grown up around online file-sharing.
> wrong, but IMHO both principles are sound in most cases.
>
>
>>Also, experience. Even those of us who don't know enough anime fans
>>in person to know several with large caches of fansubs (of either
>>type) and not very many commercial releases, or have an unusual
>>circle of friends where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very
>>group that FAR more people get fansubs and then not the commercial
>>releases than those that buy anything they get in fansub format.
>
> I'll admit to not buying everything I saw as fansubs, but that
> breaks down into three groups: (a) titles that haven't been
> released yet (e.g. "Princess Tutu", "One") that I intend to buy if
> and when they're released, (b) titles I didn't like (e.g. "Maison
> Ikkoku") that I didn't continue to get past the first tape, and (c)
> titles that I haven't been able to pick up because the store can't
> or won't keep them in stock (e.g. "Noir"). (I know that the third
> group is questionable, since I can always ask for a special order -
> I'm including it out of honesty.) Of the (very few) people that I
> know who have "large caches of fansubs", the shows that they don't
> also have prosubbed are in the first two groups I listed above.
That's nice. And I've never watched a series fansubbed I haven't picked
up. I've complete series' of stuff subbed and not bothered to watch most
of it (for instance, Noir, which I STILL have not seen all of despite
having every episode on disc somewhere, because I started getting the
DVDs instead and don't have the money to finish collecting at the
moment).
But I'm not the norm, and neither are you. We both know quite a few
people in RL who have large amounts of fansubs and other illegal copies
and have not bought legit ones even though they are readily available.
I'm not going to name names, at least not publically, but the number of
people we know who do this far outweighs the number of people we know who
don't.
> I think that we notice the people who don't buy the prosubs (or
> produbs) for the same reason we notice the world-record athletes -
> they're sufficiently unusual to be memorable.
They're not very unusual on THIS group. Or in our real life circle of
acquaintances. Or, I suspect, anywhere else.
Oak
> Oak <O...@Big.Tree> wrote in
> news:pan.2004.05.11....@Big.Tree:
>
>>
>> I don't have any hard numbers to add to this discussion, just some
>> personal observations...
>> Which leads to my point, Anime is TOO EXPENSIVE. I won't pretend to
>
> Thanks, dude. I love it when people prove my point.
>
> I'm not going to bother arguing with the rest, though, because after all,
> you just provided another sterling example for me and it would thus be
> uncharitable for me to respond to the other things you said.
>
> Blade
I find it hard to argue against your point, but I'm kinda disappointed
that you won't respond to some of my flame bait. I thought some of it was
at least semi-provocative. Maybe it was just boring, sigh.
OAK
Justin
Yes, I have MP3s. And if I like the song after listening to it, I buy.
ALWAYS. It's no different to a listening station at a music store,
except that I can listen to the whole damn thing.
>> imported television episodes, but from what I've read of the report
>> (it gets to be heavy going around page 14, so I haven't made it
>> through all 40-some pages yet), I see no reason why the results
>> wouldn't generalize. They are both luxury entertainment items, after
>> all.
>
> And yet most people on this group who've been in one of the endless
> iterations of this topic admit they've watched fansubs and not gotten the
> series. So once again, sorry, I don't believe it.
I've borrowed stuff from my friends and not bough the series, is that
also wrong then?
Avatar
> In article <Xns94E58DF84A...@66.185.95.104>,
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>where that doesn't happen, have seen in this very group that FAR more
>>people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
>>buy anything they get in fansub format.
>
>
> State the numbers. Otherwise, this is mere assertion.
There's only one person in this discussion that has numbers, and I'm
obligated not to share.
The real question is the degree of overlap between those people who are
getting fansubs and the people who eventually get the DVDs. I'm not
going to say that there aren't any of these people - but honestly, in
your experience, do you really believe it's the majority of people who
are downloading fansubs? Or even a large minority? C'mon.
Avatar
Blade
news:slrnca0mr6...@debian.dns2go.com:
I never said there wasn't exceptions. There's always going to be people
who are strictly moral, or who care specifically about something enough
to be moral with it. But most people aren't. And any study that "finds"
otherwise I'm going to heavily question.
>>> imported television episodes, but from what I've read of the
>>> report (it gets to be heavy going around page 14, so I haven't
>>> made it through all 40-some pages yet), I see no reason why the
>>> results wouldn't generalize. They are both luxury entertainment
>>> items, after all.
>>
>> And yet most people on this group who've been in one of the endless
>> iterations of this topic admit they've watched fansubs and not
>> gotten the series. So once again, sorry, I don't believe it.
>
> I've borrowed stuff from my friends and not bough the series, is
> that also wrong then?
Yes, if you watched it all, but probably less so than fansubs, since a)
SOMEONE bought it, and b) it isn't getting distributed to anyone with a
fast internet connection.
Avatar
Not the first time I've seen some of these ideas.
First off, -dubs make money-. There is no such thing as "leaving the dub
off so that it's cheaper". Most people watch the dub. Is it half/more
than half/90%? Varies, I'm sure, but even so, if you don't have a dub
you're losing at least half your buyers...
...and in reality, more than that of your business, because stores
-know- that sub-only stuff doesn't move as fast and so they order a lot
less of it. And yes, while stuff gets sold to anime fans, usually it is
first sold to a store - in other words, if the stores won't buy your
disc, it's unlikely that you will get many sales of the disc. Can't sell
what ain't on the shelf.
So, actually, if we were releasing sub-only product, it would be more
expensive, not cheaper.
Remember that anime licensing is expensive. REALLY expensive (and
getting higher). There's no "yes, I know the economics are different".
Of course the economics are different - even though anime is more
popular and continuing to grow, it's still a relatively niche medium,
and there are things you just can't -do- with sales not in the millions.
And as far as importing DVDs from Japan, watch out - they're easily
double, if not triple, what we pay. $30 for four or five eps? Try $60
for two...
Avatar
Chibi-Light
wrote:
>Not the first time I've seen some of these ideas.
>
>First off, -dubs make money-. There is no such thing as "leaving the dub
>off so that it's cheaper". Most people watch the dub. Is it half/more
>than half/90%? Varies, I'm sure, but even so, if you don't have a dub
>you're losing at least half your buyers...
>
>...and in reality, more than that of your business, because stores
>-know- that sub-only stuff doesn't move as fast and so they order a lot
>less of it. And yes, while stuff gets sold to anime fans, usually it is
>first sold to a store - in other words, if the stores won't buy your
>disc, it's unlikely that you will get many sales of the disc. Can't sell
>what ain't on the shelf.
>
>So, actually, if we were releasing sub-only product, it would be more
>expensive, not cheaper.
I seem to recall reading at one point in time that part of the reason
anime prices have gone down (1 to 2 eps for $30 to $35 versus 4 to 5
eps for $25 to $30) is due to the fact that DVDs allow the companies
to produce one version of a product instead of two. (Ever look at the
item numbers of your old subbed/dubbed tapes? Slayers Try's numbers
go something like 127, 129, 131, 133, etc..).
CL
Chibi-Light
>>> One study does not make something a fact, and I find that very
>>> difficult to believe. Everyone I know who has access to mp3s uses
>>> them instead of buying CDs on a regular basis. EVERYONE.
>>> Including, I might add, you. And yes, me too.
>>
>> Yes, I have MP3s. And if I like the song after listening to it, I
>> buy. ALWAYS. It's no different to a listening station at a music
>> store, except that I can listen to the whole damn thing.
>
>I never said there wasn't exceptions.
Yes you did Blade. Look, in your own post, you capitalized
"everyone." That's an all encompassing no exceptions kind of term.
>Yes, if you watched it all, but probably less so than fansubs, since a)
>SOMEONE bought it, and b) it isn't getting distributed to anyone with a
>fast internet connection.
Now, I'm not entirely sure, but I think that falls under fair use.
This one I would like someone to bring some clarification to.
CL
Oak
> Not the first time I've seen some of these ideas.
> ...
> So, actually, if we were releasing sub-only product, it would be more
> expensive, not cheaper.
> ...
> Remember that anime licensing is expensive. REALLY expensive (and
> getting higher).
> ...
> Avatar
Thanks for the economics lesson. I tend to forget that anime is a niche
product, since it's about the only thing I watch these days.
OAK
Ken Arromdee
>> format, the fansub groups could just release their translations as
>> separate files. No copyright violation required.
No, sorry. The fansub translations themselves are copyright violations all
on their own even without any video or audio included.
But here's an interesting compromise. Instead of comparing fansubs to DVDs
from Japan, compare them to anime in Japan in general. The person watching
the fansub should only be obliged to put money in under circumstances where
the Japanese viewer would. (Of course this has nothing to do with legality.)
Therefore, an American fan
-- could watch a fansub once *if* it could be watched by a Japanese fan for
free *and* the Japanese fan would be permitted to skip the commercials (so
the Japanese companies gain no profit from that viewing)
-- could watch a fansub multiple times if the Japanese fan could watch the
anime for free multiple times (skipping the commercials)
-- could watch an OAV-based fansub *if* the Japanese fan could rent the OAV
and if the American fan buys *some* of the anime he has as fansubs--not all,
but enough to raise the profit of the company to the same profit the Japanese
company makes through the rentals. For instance, if a rental makes the
company 5 cents in Japan and a purchase makes the company 50 cents in the US,
the American fan who has 10 fansubbed OAVs would have to buy one of them so
that the company gets the same profit it does from the Japanese fan's 10
rentals.
In addition, if the anime is shown for free on television in America, *and*
if the American fan is permitted to skip the commercials, then the fan
could watch a fansub in place of any American airing of the same episode.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
(DVDs/manga/games for sale. http://www.rahul.net/arromdee/sale.html)
Tikritis: "Saddam is in our hearts! Saddam is in our blood!"
Americans/Iraqi Police: "Saddam is in our jail!"
Ethan Hammond
> > people get fansubs and then not the commercial releases than those that
> > buy anything they get in fansub format.
>
> State the numbers. Otherwise, this is mere assertion.
I think it is fairly obvious that what Blade says is true. The majority
of people who download fansubs are doing it in lieu of buying the
legit release. Cause they are punks.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
>
> >Common sense. Most people will not pay money for what they can get for
> >free.
>
> I wish I had read this before coming over to visit earlier today, Blade
> - I could have brought along my copy of the Harvard study that shows
> that there's no statistical correlation between downloading and
> purchasing of music. Granted, that's domestic music and this is
> imported television episodes, but from what I've read of the report (it
> gets to be heavy going around page 14, so I haven't made it through all
> 40-some pages yet), I see no reason why the results wouldn't generalize.
> They are both luxury entertainment items, after all.
I think music would be selling better if there was better music on the
market.
Music now is all about the image, not playing your own instruments or
writing
your own songs and you can only sell so many albums to 12 year olds. Adults
are not buying music today because it is just not good. Ohhh and I was LMAO
about your Harvard study until I read that it was about downloading music.
I actually had to read that for one of my Communications classes.
Ethan Hammond
>
> Which leads to my point, Anime is TOO EXPENSIVE. I won't pretend to
> understand the economics of the business, but here are a few points that
> you can flame me on.
O.o;;;; You obviously were not buying anime 10 years ago. We paid close
to $40 for two episodes of Nuku Nuku subtitled on VHS and we liked it
we loved it. We either had to sit through 20 minutes of previews or fast
forwarding through them each time for a few minutes and we liked it we
loved it. And no place buy Suncoast really had any anime and we liked
it we loved it. We said holy sh!t there is some anime in America that
is easy to get and is not a 9th generation fansub where you can't even
read the subtitles or make out if Ranma is in boy or girl mode except
by the voice because the video is so damn blurry and we liked it we
loved it. You kids today, you just have it too damn easy, with your
downloading
and your DVD's. And even actually being able to rent anime from
video stores. TOO EASY!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
Ethan Hammond
>
> Hey Blade. Ethan has proved your point WRONG just cause he never
> watches fansubs and always buys or rents. I guess that means you're
> wrong. Hmmmmm...
Or maybe Ethan is just always right much to the naysayers chagrin.
Captain Nerd
Avatar <ake...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
I am making no claims whatsoever.
I don't *know* anyone who downloads fansubs other than myself,
therefore I don't claim to know what the majority does. I keep
what I want to keep, and if they become available on DVD I buy
them, because I want to have the stories. If fansubbing became
unavailable, I'd take to renting titles when they came out, and
most likely buy less anime per year.
Does this mean everyone is like me? No, I don't claim that.
Let me repeat: I don't claim that everyone is like me, nor do
I claim that *anyone* is like me when it comes to how they treat
fansubs.
I know some tick-brains will ignore what I just wrote, so let me
say it one more time: I do not claim that everyone who downloads
fansubs does what I do, nor do I claim that *any other* person
does what I do.
I speak for myself. I leave the grandiose unsupported claims
to others.
Ethan Hammond
>
> First off, -dubs make money-. There is no such thing as "leaving the dub
> off so that it's cheaper". Most people watch the dub. Is it half/more
> than half/90%? Varies, I'm sure, but even so, if you don't have a dub
> you're losing at least half your buyers...
Well until the Passion comes out on DVD, THE PASSION!!!!
So what we need is an anime version of the Passion to get all the
people used to reading subtitles. That is the plan I submit.
Ethan Hammond
> anime prices have gone down (1 to 2 eps for $30 to $35 versus 4 to 5
> eps for $25 to $30) is due to the fact that DVDs allow the companies
> to produce one version of a product instead of two. (Ever look at the
> item numbers of your old subbed/dubbed tapes? Slayers Try's numbers
> go something like 127, 129, 131, 133, etc..).
Although Slayers Try was the same price for each tape subbed or dubbed.
The Wanderer
> On Tue, 11 May 2004 04:59:54 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> One study does not make something a fact, and I find that very
>>>> difficult to believe. Everyone I know who has access to mp3s
>>>> uses them instead of buying CDs on a regular basis. EVERYONE.
>>>> Including, I might add, you. And yes, me too.
>>>
>>> Yes, I have MP3s. And if I like the song after listening to it, I
>>> buy. ALWAYS. It's no different to a listening station at a music
>>> store, except that I can listen to the whole damn thing.
>>
>> I never said there wasn't exceptions.
>
> Yes you did Blade. Look, in your own post, you capitalized
> "everyone."
...in the context of the phrase "everyone I know". This is known as
repeating for emphasis.
He said that there were no exceptions *among people he knows*. He didn't
say that there were no exceptions at all.
Precision, always precision... I've been far too lax recently, myself.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
David Walker
"sanjian" <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:x7Xmc.30001$pJ1.28859@lakeread02...
> Justin wrote:
> > sanjian wrote on [Thu, 6 May 2004 08:36:00 -0400]:
> >> Ethan Hammond wrote:
> >>> "Farix" <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>>> Actually, it was the record company that gave Yankovic permission.
> >>>> I believe Coolie was left out of the loop on this one.
> >>>
> >>> Oh well he still got his money so he should quit his complaining!!!!
> >>
> >> He did, after he and Wierd Al talked. Up to that point, he had
> >> every right to bitch.
> >>
> >
> > No, he didn't. Weird Al got the rights before he made the song.
> > There's
> > no leeway at all.
>
> Take a step back and breathe.
>
> Until he found out what was going on (which I believe was when he
contacted
> Al), all he knew was his song was being used and he didn't give
permission.
> That's reason to bitch.
>
>
Actually, Weird Al asks permission to use the songs, but only as a courtesy.
by *LAW* Parody is respected as free speech, and no permission is needed for
it.
Chika
<dowa...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
> Actually, Weird Al asks permission to use the songs, but only as a
> courtesy. by *LAW* Parody is respected as free speech, and no permission
> is needed for it.
That hasn't stopped some trying to sue various people for defamation on
occasion (though I think the most Weird Al has suffered for his part was
disapproval from Jerry Springer for that song about him - which Springer
really deserved, IMO!)
Although parody and satire often excape unharmed, some folk have been
known to cross the line, not always with impunity (for example, the UK
satirical journal Private Eye, which was indirectly responsible for the TV
series Spitting Image, has a history of litigation against it for stuff
that you might normally consider satire.)
--
//\ // Chika <zvl...@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
// \// The second ZFC coming <crashnet.org.uk/zedeffcee>
... Ancient Greeks made dolphin-killing punishable by death.
David Walker
"Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94E66A34B...@66.185.95.104...
> > that people want to play by the rules. We're both demonstrably
>
> Which is why things don't get stolen if there's no protection mechanism
> against it? Pshaw. People will inherently take for free if they can.
> Not everyone, but a goodly portion of them. Especially in the culture of
> "you are ENTITLED to free shit, and The Man is trying to keep it from
> you" that has grown up around online file-sharing.
>
I have to ask you if you think Public Libraries reduce or increase the sales
of books? Your arguments seem to indicate you think they decrease sales.
After all, you're entitled to every book in the library...free! So people
should, by your reasoning, 'take them for free' and not buy them, since they
already read the books.
Instead, ask any author: Libraries greatly *increase* sales of books, just
by letting people sample authors. Those that use a library excusively,
without buying other books, are almost certainly those who would never buy a
book in the first place, usually for lack of money. Those aren't lost
sales, as they wouldn't have been sold in the first place. And by getting
people interested in an author, they *might* just turn into sales 5, 10, 20
years down the road.
Since this doesn't happen with library books, it should not have happened
with CDs, except for the record companies own mis-judgements back around
1995-97. It should be what happens with fansubs as well. Most Pro
distributors started as fans, many did their own fansubbing before they went
pro. Fansubbing is largely tolerated because it can be used as a 'Market
indicator' -- popular fansubs easily turn into popular domestic DVD sales
(Mahoromatic, Love Hina, Fushigi Yuugi, and way back when, Ranma and Oh! My
Goddess). The fansubs being downloaded and not bought tend to be students
without much pocket money (not 100%, but a sizable percentage, just like
library usage), especially since fansubs 'dry up' when a commercial release
is announced (Look at how Tokyo Mew Mew vanished after February's
announcement) The Large scale fansub collectors are the hard-core fans, who
will also buy anime by the bucketload when they can. If they are doing it
because they cannot afford to BUY anime, thats not a lost sale -- they
wouldn't be buying it anyway. Ask yurself this: How many of the habital
fansub leeches are high school or college students? Would they be buying
much anime at $30/dvd anyway?
There is *SO* much anime out there now -- I know ADV alone averaged 4
releases a week in 2001, and its likely even larger numbers now -- that
there need to be some sort of 'sample' method. Rental, like netflix, and
fansubs allow people to look at something before shelling out that $25-30
for a DVD, simply because buying EVERYTHING released will break the budget
of almost anyone short of a lottery winner.
Even so, Fansubs remain a hard-core market. They're a niche of a niche
market. If the percentage of anime fans d/ling fansubs exceeds 10% of the
total number who buy anime at places like Best Buy and Suncoast, I'd be
surprised. They're a higher percentage of newsgroups, but thats because the
newsgroups are ALSO a hard-core niche.
David Walker
"Chika" <miy...@spam-no-way.invalid> wrote in message
news:4cad7dca...@no.spam.here...
Thats in the UK, In the 1990s there was a major US Supreme court case that
basivcally declared all parody and satire protected speech in the USA. Its
recent enough that any parody writer brought to court will win, largely by
having the case against them dismissed on first amendment grounds
Blade
news:1z7oc.11631$zq4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
> "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns94E66A34B...@66.185.95.104...
>> rob...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote in
>> news:40a03635...@News.Individual.NET:
>>
>> > The same "common sense" that tells you people are miserly tells
>> > me that people want to play by the rules. We're both
>> > demonstrably
>>
>> Which is why things don't get stolen if there's no protection
>> mechanism against it? Pshaw. People will inherently take for free
>> if they can. Not everyone, but a goodly portion of them.
>> Especially in the culture of "you are ENTITLED to free shit, and
>> The Man is trying to keep it from you" that has grown up around
>> online file-sharing.
>>
>
>
>
> I have to ask you if you think Public Libraries reduce or increase
> the sales of books? Your arguments seem to indicate you think they
> decrease sales. After all, you're entitled to every book in the
> library...free! So people should, by your reasoning, 'take them
> for free' and not buy them, since they already read the books.
That'd be an awesome comparison, if libraries let you take out whatever
books you want and keep them forever for free.
But, since they don't, it's completely and utterly irrelevent.
> Instead, ask any author: Libraries greatly *increase* sales of
> books, just by letting people sample authors. Those that use a
> library excusively, without buying other books, are almost certainly
> those who would never buy a book in the first place, usually for
> lack of money. Those aren't lost sales, as they wouldn't have been
> sold in the first place. And by getting people interested in an
> author, they *might* just turn into sales 5, 10, 20 years down the
> road.
>
> Since this doesn't happen with library books, it should not have
> happened with CDs, except for the record companies own
> mis-judgements back around 1995-97. It should be what happens with
Also the fact that the two situations aren't even comparable.
> fansubs as well. Most Pro distributors started as fans, many did
> their own fansubbing before they went pro. Fansubbing is largely
> tolerated because it can be used as a 'Market indicator' -- popular
No it isn't. Several companies talking about it have noted they don't
consider fansubs at all. I do believe Avatar, representing ADV, has said
the same thing (though I might be wrong on that).
It's largely tolerated because it isn't worth the hassle of pursuing
lawsuits. Yet.
> fansubs easily turn into popular domestic DVD sales (Mahoromatic,
> Love Hina, Fushigi Yuugi, and way back when, Ranma and Oh! My
> Goddess). The fansubs being downloaded and not bought tend to be
> students without much pocket money (not 100%, but a sizable
> percentage, just like library usage), especially since fansubs 'dry
> up' when a commercial release is announced (Look at how Tokyo Mew
> Mew vanished after February's announcement) The Large scale fansub
And look at how Inuyasha vanished! Oh, no, wait.
And look at how Dragonball Z vanished! Err, whoops.
And look at how Tenchi OAV3 never happened! Shoot!
Not to mention Bubblegum Crisis 2040! Frick!
And how about the GitS TV series! Oh damn.
And how about etc, etc, etc!
> collectors are the hard-core fans, who will also buy anime by the
Ha. Ha. Ha.
> bucketload when they can. If they are doing it because they cannot
> afford to BUY anime, thats not a lost sale -- they wouldn't be
> buying it anyway. Ask yurself this: How many of the habital fansub
> leeches are high school or college students? Would they be buying
> much anime at $30/dvd anyway?
They'd be buying more if they couldn't get all the stuff they liked for
free. Much like most mp3 collectors would buy more CDs if they couldn't
get any song they liked for free.
Also more to the point, most people wouldn't buy LESS if fansubs didn't
exist. Some people say they wouldn't, but they're often ones who say "I
would never have seen any anime if it weren't for fansubs!", a claim that
rings rather hollow in light of how easy it is is to see anime in various
media these days. Many of the others are "I never buy ANYTHING unless
I've seen the entire series first", which is simply silly.
> There is *SO* much anime out there now -- I know ADV alone averaged
> 4 releases a week in 2001, and its likely even larger numbers now --
> that there need to be some sort of 'sample' method. Rental, like
Word of mouth, reviews, blurbs, and trailers seemed to work just fine for
years, in all sort of media.
But suddenly, now that we have free copies of everything we want, we NEED
them, or else nobody will buy anything! Funny, that.
BTW, getting an entire series is not a "sample".
> netflix, and fansubs allow people to look at something before
> shelling out that $25-30 for a DVD, simply because buying EVERYTHING
> released will break the budget of almost anyone short of a lottery
> winner.
I don't think anybody expects customers to buy everything released.
> Even so, Fansubs remain a hard-core market. They're a niche of a
> niche market. If the percentage of anime fans d/ling fansubs
And that makes it less wrong...how, exactly? Or makes it more likely
they will buy legit releases...how, exactly?
> exceeds 10% of the total number who buy anime at places like Best
> Buy and Suncoast, I'd be surprised. They're a higher percentage of
> newsgroups, but thats because the newsgroups are ALSO a hard-core
> niche.
That's nice, but really rather irrelevent to the point.
On an off-topic note, Eric Schwartz, sending me email is great, but not
including a legitimate return address makes it rather difficult to
respond. ^^;
Chika
<dowa...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
> > Although parody and satire often excape unharmed, some folk have been
> > known to cross the line, not always with impunity (for example, the UK
> > satirical journal Private Eye, which was indirectly responsible for
> > the TV series Spitting Image, has a history of litigation against it
> > for stuff that you might normally consider satire.)
> Thats in the UK, In the 1990s there was a major US Supreme court case
> that basivcally declared all parody and satire protected speech in the
> USA. Its recent enough that any parody writer brought to court will
> win, largely by having the case against them dismissed on first
> amendment grounds
That's one of the biggest problems with the UK. No written constitution
means that freedom of speech can never be totally guaranteed.
--
//\ // Chika <zvl...@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
// \// The second ZFC coming <crashnet.org.uk/zedeffcee>
... (Ice rocks hit the hull) Captain, we are being hailed.
Jorge A Pratt
"David Walker" <dowa...@ncsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1z7oc.11631$zq4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> > Which is why things don't get stolen if there's no protection mechanism
> > against it? Pshaw. People will inherently take for free if they can.
> > Not everyone, but a goodly portion of them. Especially in the culture
of
> > "you are ENTITLED to free shit, and The Man is trying to keep it from
> > you" that has grown up around online file-sharing.
> >
> I have to ask you if you think Public Libraries reduce or increase the
sales
> of books? Your arguments seem to indicate you think they decrease sales.
> After all, you're entitled to every book in the library...free! So
people
> should, by your reasoning, 'take them for free' and not buy them, since
they
> already read the books.
The analogy doesn't work because of several fundamental differences. For
starters, you *borrow* books from the library, and must return them
eventually or you have to pay fines. Fansubs (and MP3s, and whatnot) don't
have to be returned, and you really ARE free to keep them for all time.
Also, a library would be able to provide its patrons a limited amount of
copies of a book. Digisubs can be distributed with zero loss of quality over
a potentially infinite number of users.
Libraries also have to buy each and every individual copy of the books
themselves, or accept said copies through a donation, in which case another
person had to pay for them. Thus, every book they acquire had to be
purchased legally before being displayed on the shelves. Digisubs, OTOH,
don't involve any purchase save for the very first one (in case the subber
ripped the DVD) or, in the case of TV raws, no purchase at all. The creators
are not compensated by digisubs, whereas authors can reap a benefit from
library acquisitions.
> Most Pro
> distributors started as fans, many did their own fansubbing before they
went
> pro.
Uh... really? I know little about this, so my request for further info isn't
a challenge, but I thought only AnimEigo started out as a fan group.
Still, I'm wary of the "they wouldn't buy anyway, so it's not a lost sale"
argument. It might appear to make sense from an economics standpoint
(arguable, but I won't debate it right now,) but the point stands that they
watched a show, enjoyed or hated it to some degree, and then failed to
provide the creators proper compensation. I may hate a movie, but if I watch
it, I will still pay for having watched it.
The Zephyr
(I may regret GOING to the movie and thus spending money on it, but that's
entirely different.)
Captain Nerd
Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "David Walker" <dowa...@ncsu.edu> wrote in
> news:1z7oc.11631$zq4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
>
> > collectors are the hard-core fans, who will also buy anime by the
>
> Ha. Ha. Ha.
What a fact-filled logical rebuttal! Bravo!
>
> > bucketload when they can. If they are doing it because they cannot
> > afford to BUY anime, thats not a lost sale -- they wouldn't be
> > buying it anyway. Ask yurself this: How many of the habital fansub
> > leeches are high school or college students? Would they be buying
> > much anime at $30/dvd anyway?
>
> They'd be buying more if they couldn't get all the stuff they liked for
> free. Much like most mp3 collectors would buy more CDs if they couldn't
> get any song they liked for free.
>
> Also more to the point, most people wouldn't buy LESS if fansubs didn't
> exist. Some people say they wouldn't, but they're often ones who say "I
> would never have seen any anime if it weren't for fansubs!", a claim that
> rings rather hollow in light of how easy it is is to see anime in various
> media these days. Many of the others are "I never buy ANYTHING unless
> I've seen the entire series first", which is simply silly.
So, tell me how I would see "Planetes" right now? How would I
see "Aishiteruze Baby" right now? How would I see "Daa Daa Daa"
right now? I know I want all three series, and will buy all the
DVDs of them. If they never get licensed (and the odds are good
that "Daa Daa Daa" won't be, how is it possible for me to buy them?
> > There is *SO* much anime out there now -- I know ADV alone averaged
> > 4 releases a week in 2001, and its likely even larger numbers now --
> > that there need to be some sort of 'sample' method. Rental, like
>
> Word of mouth, reviews, blurbs, and trailers seemed to work just fine for
> years, in all sort of media.
For those media that are available. How many trailers for unlicensed
anime shows do you see? How do people write reviews and blurbs for
anime that aren't available legitimately? How do you get word of
mouth from people who don't see the new unlicensed shows?
Jorge A Pratt
> In article <Xns94E68782D9...@66.185.95.104>,
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "David Walker" <dowa...@ncsu.edu> wrote in
> > news:1z7oc.11631$zq4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com:
> >
>
> >
> > > collectors are the hard-core fans, who will also buy anime by the
> >
> > Ha. Ha. Ha.
>
> What a fact-filled logical rebuttal! Bravo!
No need to stoop to biting sarcasm, particularly when the original assertion
WAS laughable at best.
> > Also more to the point, most people wouldn't buy LESS if fansubs didn't
> > exist. Some people say they wouldn't, but they're often ones who say "I
> > would never have seen any anime if it weren't for fansubs!", a claim
that
> > rings rather hollow in light of how easy it is is to see anime in
various
> > media these days. Many of the others are "I never buy ANYTHING unless
> > I've seen the entire series first", which is simply silly.
>
> So, tell me how I would see "Planetes" right now?
You wouldn't be. You might be reading the commercially-available manga, and
waiting for an American distributor to get the rights to the anime. It's
called "being patient."
> How would I
> see "Aishiteruze Baby" right now?
You wouldn't be. Most likely, you wouldn't even know of it, unless you were
into reading Japanese media reviews. Out of sight, out of mind, and you
wouldn't be poorer for it.
That doesn't preclude you getting interested once, say, Newtype USA ran an
article on it, which would be pretty much tantamount to announcing a future
release by a US distributor.
> How would I see "Daa Daa Daa"
> right now?
See above.
> I know I want all three series, and will buy all the
> DVDs of them. If they never get licensed (and the odds are good
> that "Daa Daa Daa" won't be, how is it possible for me to buy them?
Screw the US companies! At least the show's original creators should get
SOME compensation from you, if you liked their product. Don't you think so?
> > Word of mouth, reviews, blurbs, and trailers seemed to work just fine
for
> > years, in all sort of media.
>
> For those media that are available. How many trailers for unlicensed
> anime shows do you see? How do people write reviews and blurbs for
> anime that aren't available legitimately? How do you get word of
> mouth from people who don't see the new unlicensed shows?
How would you suffer from not knowing about a piece of entertainment, a
luxury item, while it's only being released in Japan anyway? Is it THAT much
worse from the hypothetical situation in which you learn of these shows only
after an American outlet has published an article on them?
The Zephyr
(If you're not patient, go R2. If you can't go R2, go without. Anime is a
HOBBY, you're not entitled to getting it for free.)
Gerardo Campos
news:%aZnc.78909$Dn1....@fe2.texas.rr.com:
> Oak wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>
> Remember that anime licensing is expensive. REALLY expensive (and
> getting higher). There's no "yes, I know the economics are different".
> Of course the economics are different - even though anime is more
> popular and continuing to grow, it's still a relatively niche medium,
> and there are things you just can't -do- with sales not in the
> millions.
>
> And as far as importing DVDs from Japan, watch out - they're easily
> double, if not triple, what we pay. $30 for four or five eps? Try $60
> for two...
>
> Avatar
>
>
Well, if US comanies do not insist on paying for the World Wide license
minus Japan (I think this is what the US companies are doing, but maybe I
am worng) and just keep the US (and maybe Canada) rights, then the DVD
should be cheaper. They should not need the WW license, since they have
never shown very much interest in creating versions for other languages
or other regions.
European and Latin American companies continue getting the rights to
broadcast Anime, plus the cost of dubbing them, get paid by sponsors and
still be a good business, so there most be something wrong with how the
US companies are managing their expenses, or want more money for ther
investments, or I am missing the licensing cost differences between local
broadcast and national DVD production/distribution or other thing.
Anyway, as stated before, Anime is a luxury entertainment and has a niche
market, so there is nothing that can be done to persuade those companies
to lower the price, so when I can afford it, I get it, if I not, I do
without, and I am not a bootleg fan.
Just for the record you can count me as one that have buyed several
licensed anime (in VHS and DVD), watched and taped many from TV, and own
about 20 fansub titles that I got before the license was aquired and
before DVD were more available, and no plans to replace the fansubs with
licensed versions.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Ethan Hammond
>
> Fansubbing is largely tolerated because it can be used as a 'Market
> indicator' --
Nope fansubbing is tolerate because the Japanese companies don't do
anything to stop fansubs. Once an American company gets the rights
to a series you see how quickly people stop fansubbing it. If there was
the same kind of fear that Japanese companies would do something
about fansubs then there would be no fansubs at all, and the Japanese
companies have ever right to take the same action that any American
company could take.
Abraham Evangelista (afedaken)
wrote:
>
>I think that we notice the people who don't buy the prosubs (or produbs)
>for the same reason we notice the world-record athletes - they're
>sufficiently unusual to be memorable.
Sadly, that's anectdotal evedence at best. I attend a college campus,
and work as the store gamer at a local hobby shop, and the vast
majority of the people I meet who do fansubs ARE pirates.
I tend to remember the ones who honestly buy more of thier anime,
because at least 'round here, they're the minority.
Chibi-Light
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Chibi-Light" <chibiw...@YUM-SPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> I seem to recall reading at one point in time that part of the reason
>> anime prices have gone down (1 to 2 eps for $30 to $35 versus 4 to 5
>> eps for $25 to $30) is due to the fact that DVDs allow the companies
>> to produce one version of a product instead of two. (Ever look at the
>> item numbers of your old subbed/dubbed tapes? Slayers Try's numbers
>> go something like 127, 129, 131, 133, etc..).
>
>Although Slayers Try was the same price for each tape subbed or dubbed.
Hey Ethan...
Way to miss the point there.
The point was that the over all price went down. Not the price
differences in sub vs dub tapes.
CL
Chibi-Light
<inverse...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Chibi-Light wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 May 2004 04:59:54 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> One study does not make something a fact, and I find that very
>>>>> difficult to believe. Everyone I know who has access to mp3s
>>>>> uses them instead of buying CDs on a regular basis. EVERYONE.
>>>>> Including, I might add, you. And yes, me too.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have MP3s. And if I like the song after listening to it, I
>>>> buy. ALWAYS. It's no different to a listening station at a music
>>>> store, except that I can listen to the whole damn thing.
>>>
>>> I never said there wasn't exceptions.
>>
>> Yes you did Blade. Look, in your own post, you capitalized
>> "everyone."
>
>...in the context of the phrase "everyone I know". This is known as
>repeating for emphasis.
>
>He said that there were no exceptions *among people he knows*. He didn't
>say that there were no exceptions at all.
>
>Precision, always precision... I've been far too lax recently, myself.
*slaps Wanderer*
Technically, he knows me, he knows you, he knows Ethan, so we all
count.
Nyah.
Cl
Chibi-Light
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I think music would be selling better if there was better music on the
>market.
Ah yes, allow the person who is ignorant about music to make
judgements and generalization about music.
>Music now is all about the image, not playing your own instruments or
>writing your own songs and you can only sell so many albums to 12 year olds.
Apparently you don't remember the Monkees.
>Adults
>are not buying music today because it is just not good.
Music is always great to shitty depending on the person.
And yet strangley, adults DO buy music, not necessarily what is played
on the radio, but they do play music.
You, Ethan, have a very closed minded view of the world of music.
It's not the 10 hip bands of the moment that get replayed every two
hours on the radio (like the hip hop station in Houston, oh god how I
hate that station). No there's thousands of bands out there, most of
them you've probably never heard of. Many of them releasing music the
majority of us will NEVER HEAR simply because of the stranglehold the
RIAA/Viacom/etc has on the radio and MTV/VH1.
So by making statements like "Adults are not buying music today
because it is just not good" just goes to show your ignorance of the
wide variety in the market. I can point out stuff I personally find
to be excellent that has never and will never be played on top 40
radio.
CL