[NOISE] "Dark" anime on HBO?
Enrique Conty
As many of you may know by now, Todd McFarlane's SPAWN is now a late-night
animated series on HBO (Fridays at Midnight EST). It seems to be
definitely geared towards a mature audience (it's even listed under "Drama"
in the cable guide). After Spawn finishes its 6-episode run, it is to be
replaced by Ralph Bakshi's "Spicy City" (Bakshi returns to his bad ol' 70's
urban style which made him notorious.)
So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
--
Enrique Conty
Software Cowhand
co...@cig.mot.com
http://www.mcs.net/~conty
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <5ladst$d1n$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) writes:
> So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
> assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
> OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
> Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
Great....something ELSE to give Anime a bad name in America. I
can hear it now:
"Yeah. Japanimation. I've heard of that. It's, like, stuff like
'Akira' and 'Fist of the North Star' and 'Urotsukidoji'. I love that
stuff. Especially after I saw [fill in the blank] on HBO. I never knew
cartoons could be that violent."
Sheesh...
"Crying Freeman" gets my vote, though.
---Dmambu
dry...@erols.com
ToonRunner wrote:
>
> On 13 May 1997 19:02:53 GMT, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>
> >So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
> >assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
> >OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
> >Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>
>
> AD Police
> Angel Cop
|
this one is really violent and gory
> Violence Jack (after 1am)
>
>
> Toon
>
> Terrance "ToonRunner" Hardin Invid on the Half-Shell, Inc
> bluw...@inch.com Subtitler of the Unwashed Masses
> Cyber Rights for all..... Or Cyber Rights for NONE!!!!
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> " The Greatest trick the Devil ever did
> was to make the World believe he didn't Exist."
>
> ------- Kevin Spacey, "The Usual Suspects"
>
====
Dark images, violents, this is not funny, not-so innocent story.
==================================================================
Future Fantasy: AD Police, Battle Angel Alita, Akira,Memories
Reality Chaos: Angel Cop, Sukeban dekka
Gothic Horror Fantasy: 3x3 Eyes I/II, Mermaid Scar/Forest, Ogre Slayer
Angst-sensei
In article <33790589...@news.icrossroads.com>,
Paul Cordeiro <shi...@icrossroads.com> wrote:
>On 13 May 1997 19:02:53 GMT, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>
>>So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
>>assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
>>OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
>>Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>
>Crisis to back it up, and it's quite serious and gruesome. Armitage III
>would fit in nicely as well.
Bleah. AD POLICE is weak--titillation and violence for its own sake.
ARMITAGE III's ending is a little too cutesy. My picks:
o BASTARD: The correct destructive (if juvenile) sensibilities.
o OGRE SLAYER: Violent in a way that serves the plot.
o The MERMAID OVAs: Dark horror. Though perhaps too short.
o CYBER CITY OEDO 808: Good background, slightly twisted.
o BATTLE ANGEL: Dark, great story.
And on my second tier:
o VAMPIRE PRINCESS MIYU.
o TOKYO BABYLON.
o IRIA. Some bits may be too light, though. ^_^
o Possibly SHAMANIC PRINCESS, though I haven't seen enough of it to say.
Down near the bottom, but still worth consideration:
o SHUTEN DOJI.
o DEVILMAN.
Unfortunately, I am at a loss to come up with a good TV show that fits
this mold. EVANGELION comes close, but takes a while to get dark enough
for HBO....
I think you could even get away with showing most of the above without
lending much support to the "anime is nothing but tenta-porn" crowd.
--Angst-sensei
(Wishes he could think of more appropriate TV stuff.)
--
/-\ ** Jeff Williamson *** Lightfall Integrated Media *** Chicago, IL ** /-\
|A| doca...@mcs.com ^_^ Anime Central Home Page: http://www.acen.org/ |9|
|C| *==> "In every revolution, there is one man with a vision." <==* |8|
\-/ * =If you're Friends with Key, well, then, you're friends with me= * \-/
Arnold Kim
On 13 May 1997, Enrique Conty wrote:
>
> As many of you may know by now, Todd McFarlane's SPAWN is now a late-night
> animated series on HBO (Fridays at Midnight EST). It seems to be
> definitely geared towards a mature audience (it's even listed under "Drama"
> in the cable guide). After Spawn finishes its 6-episode run, it is to be
> replaced by Ralph Bakshi's "Spicy City" (Bakshi returns to his bad ol' 70's
> urban style which made him notorious.)
I heard that the content of the animated Spawn is roughly equivalent to
that of an R-rated movie.
>
> So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
> assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
> OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
> Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
Hmmm...I'd think maybe Demon City Shinjuku or Akira, but those are
movies...Maybe 3x3 Eyes?
Arnold Kim
arn...@umich.edu
Akane Tendo is a goddess!
Go KTF! Go Miyu! Go Akane's Dojo! Go KDL!
Chae An
doca...@MCS.COM (Angst-sensei) wrote:
>In article <33790589...@news.icrossroads.com>,
>Paul Cordeiro <shi...@icrossroads.com> wrote:
>>I'd probably recommend AD Police. It stands on its own without Bubblegum
>Bleah. AD POLICE is weak--titillation and violence for its own sake.
>ARMITAGE III's ending is a little too cutesy. My picks:
>o BATTLE ANGEL: Dark, great story.
I agree with the Battle Angel. It was one of the more disturbing
anime I saw last night, not for its violence necessarily (of which
there are plenty) but the undercurrent of the show. The ending where
the kid's remains are send upward is eerily poetic.
>And on my second tier:
[...]
>o Possibly SHAMANIC PRINCESS, though I haven't seen enough of it to say.
Trash. This anime is a grabbag of cool motifs that spectacularly fail
to work cohesively as a product. It's as if the designers said,
"okay, what cool stuffs can we throw together and hope for a final
product?"
[...]
>--Angst-sensei
--C h a e
--
cha...@hom.net cha...@umich.edu
http://www.best.com/~chaean
"I'm strangely attracted to Camille Paglia..."
"Is that wrong?"
# See Thousands [of pages ^^] of Manga/Anime/GameSys for Sale at #
# http://www.best.com/~chaean/Anime/bigsale.shtml #
Avery Davies
Enrique Conty wrote:
> So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
> assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
> OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
> Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>
I'd suggest EVA, but the early episodes (before they pick up Asuka) maybe
aren't graphic or dark enough to make it a viable suggestion (for the
longest time I thought you could actually show the show on broadcast TV,
until I saw the film books the Fourth Children ep and the Birth of NERV
ep. at a local store; now, I know where people get off on saying it has
graphic violence and sex)
I would also suggest Armitage III, the Genocyber series, Guyver, and
maybe VOTOMs
(its been awhile since I've seen non-commercial anime)
Avery Davies
Jeb Hoge
dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>
> In article <5ladst$d1n$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) writes:
> > assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
> > OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
> > Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>
> can hear it now:
>
> "Yeah. Japanimation. I've heard of that. It's, like, stuff like
> 'Akira' and 'Fist of the North Star' and 'Urotsukidoji'. I love that
> stuff. Especially after I saw [fill in the blank] on HBO. I never knew
> cartoons could be that violent."
>
> Sheesh...
I agree, but...what the hell do we want? People to not think that all
anime is "cute" (i.e. Sailor Moon or lightweight Ranma eps) or not to
think that it's all violent (take your pick). Actually, I think what
U.S. anime fans need is either our own bloody channel or for the
mainstream to take no interest at all. Let MTV have Daria...I want
Priss to myself. :P
--
Jeb Hoge
TIP#198
POG#007
To e-mail, remove "nospam" from my address in the header.
The above opinions do not in any way reflect those of my company or its
employees (even me).
Tsurugi
Arnold Kim <arn...@umich.edu> wrote:
>On 13 May 1997, Enrique Conty wrote:
>>
>> As many of you may know by now, Todd McFarlane's SPAWN is now a late-night
>> animated series on HBO (Fridays at Midnight EST). It seems to be
>> definitely geared towards a mature audience (it's even listed under "Drama"
>> in the cable guide). After Spawn finishes its 6-episode run, it is to be
>> replaced by Ralph Bakshi's "Spicy City" (Bakshi returns to his bad ol' 70's
>> urban style which made him notorious.)
>I heard that the content of the animated Spawn is roughly equivalent to
>that of an R-rated movie.
>>
>> So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
>> assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
>> OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
>> Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>Hmmm...I'd think maybe Demon City Shinjuku or Akira, but those are
>movies...Maybe 3x3 Eyes?
Goddess Reincarnation is good, but that's only a 2 part OAV...
Tsurugi
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <1997May14.154205.162083@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
>
> I want an Anime title that dosen't spout off techno-babble for
>techno-babble's sake
Examples?
> I want Anime to do away with cliched, maniacle bad-guy speeches
> I want Anime to not pander to the 4 year-old inside of me. (read:
>NO cute sidekicks, NO magical girls, NO tales of highschool girls flocking
>after ONE boy who has NO idea how to handle all the attention 'cause in
>reality, he's a "shy, 'nice' boy")
Oh, boy, you're gonna get slammed hard on this one, starting with me.
<rant mode on> I suspect that, at least in the case of the highschool
girls flocking after one boy, you're thinking of Tenchi and Ranma, to name
two which I'm rather familiar with. Gee, it's too bad you find them so
immature, since I don't. As a matter of fact, I often _relate_ to the
characters in both of those anime, although it's not always Tenchi or
Ranma. But since it's pandering to the 4 year-old in me, I guess that
means I'm greviously immature and those anime have no redeeming features
which an intelligent, mature, adult engineer could possibly appreciate,
huh? <rant mode off>
Now, I've just commited the sin of oversimplification and stereotyping.
Pot, kettle....
> I want Anime without gratuity (read: sex, violence)
Funny, since a couple in your list have gratuitous violence....
> I want Anime to develop plots intelligently
But heaven forbid that an intelligent plot development be in an anime like
Tenchi, right?
> I want Anime to develop characters believeably
A lot of them do. I'd really like to know what your examples of
believable character are, since not all of your examples below qualify,
IMO.
> I want a better crop of Anime comedies
Like? And what are the crummy ones? I'd say that KOR is a comedy, and
damned good, with believable character development, good plot lines, etc.
I'd say that the Tenchi OVAs qualify as well, although they do break a
couple of your other ideas, as I've already mentioned. How about Maison
Ikkoku? It's so real and so excellent that it hurts to watch, but you
laugh at the pain because it's so good. I can't put it down. Comedy
and romance doesn't get much more realistic than MI, IMO.
> I want Anime to portey realistic depictions of sex and violence
> I want Anime to dazzle me with technology and depictions of fantasy
>worlds and NOT have them be the ONLY point of the title
>
> In a word: I want Anime to be more like Macross, Macross Plus,
>Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Wings of Honneamise, Crying Freeman,
>Roujin Z, Sol Bianca, Area 88, Battle Angel, Nausicaa, Laputa, Gundam,
>Evangelion, Memories, Bubblegum Crisis (sans cheezy J-pop), Dirty Pair,
>Project A-Ko, Urusei Yatsura.
Most of those are pretty damn good anime, but not always for the reasons
in your wish list above. In fact, a good number of them break one or more
of those criteria.
> I want Anime to stop pandering to me
Funny, I thought that's what Urusei Yatsura does, all the while making you
love the characters and watch them develop. It's not a hell of a lot more
"realistic" than Tenchi, just in reverse(Ataru, that is). And I happen to
love UY, at least what I've been able to get my hands on.
> I still believe Anime hasn't fully realized the potential of its
>medium and is still content to allow itself to be defined by the medium it
>is: "Animated" and so therefore only really for little kids and loser
>fan-boys. Anime could be so much more, and I see more and more titles
>trying to germinate into intelligent, and provocative mediums....but there's
>still a long way to go to dispell the old myths about it.
I agree. But consider this for a moment: Animation has the problem you
list mostly, AFAIK, in the US. Animation in Japan is a hell of a lot
different. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be watching anime. In Japan, you can
kill a main character. Imagine the uproar if Marge Simpson died in a
meaningless auto accident, or if Babs and Buster Bunny had children out of
wedlock? Those are much more mature situations, but in the current
medium, they simply can't happen.
The closest thing we have in this country to an intelligent animated
program is the Simpsons, and half the country(if not more) hates it. The
US is too strict, to puritanical, to anal-retentive in general to handle
a weekly series like Evangelion being broadcast weekly at 7PM on
Thursdays. It ain't gonna happen anytime soon, much to my personal
chagrin.
Personally, I think you're looking at anime the wrong way. Just because
Ranma has all the girls in the world after him doesn't mean that the
characters don't develop believably, or that the plots aren't intelligent.
Is the series mostly fluff? Sure. But there's a hell of a lot more to it
than the surface. It's your loss if you're not willing to look below
that.
> And I certainly don't want Anime in America to fall into a
>category where it condescends to the lowest-common denominator where the
>only way it can be accepted it through graphic depictions of sex,
>violence, and heavy-handed "nior" stylistics. There's a difference
>between "adult" and "obnoxious".
Very true. But your definition of adult isn't broad enough.
> If "Spawn" has the potential to open up the American audience even
>more to "adult" animation, I don't want them thinking there's only one
>route to take. Animation can be "adult" and intelligent, too. (Not to
>say that Spawn isn't, I just don't want people thinking Spawn's sucess is
>due to the violence and nothing else).
Can't comment, since I've never seen Spawn.
But just because you don't see intelligence or adult topics in some anime
doesn't mean that it isn't there. Watch any Disney movie in a theatre and
see how many jokes the parents get that the kids don't, or count the
historical references, or snigger at the all but blatent sexual
connotations. Alladin, if you're watching it on the right level, has a
hell of a lot more going for it than the little kids can possibly realize.
So does almost every anime I've ever seen, including Ranma, Tenchi, 3x3
Eyes, El-Hazard, Phatom Quest Corp, Blue Seed, Dominion, Gunsmith Cats,
Iria, the Mermaid Saga, Aa! Megami-sama, You're Under Arrest, etc.
The point to all this? Well, to say that you're being way too
restrictive. Now, that list was all in your opinion, and if I've gone
overboard, I'm sorry. But it seems to me that you're writing off huge
areas of anime far too easily and quickly. I'm telling you that's just
plain wrong.
IMHO, of course.
Brian
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <3379C3...@nospam.worldnet.att.net>, Jeb Hoge <EIE...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> writes:
> dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>>
>> In article <5ladst$d1n$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) writes:
>> > assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
>> > OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
>> > Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>>
>> can hear it now:
>>
>> "Yeah. Japanimation. I've heard of that. It's, like, stuff like
>> 'Akira' and 'Fist of the North Star' and 'Urotsukidoji'. I love that
>> stuff. Especially after I saw [fill in the blank] on HBO. I never knew
>> cartoons could be that violent."
>>
>> Sheesh...
>
> I agree, but...what the hell do we want?
I'm glad you asked that sonny-boy.
What the hell that I want:
I want an Anime title that dosen't spout off techno-babble for
techno-babble's sake
I want Anime to do away with cliched, maniacle bad-guy speeches
I want Anime to not pander to the 4 year-old inside of me. (read:
NO cute sidekicks, NO magical girls, NO tales of highschool girls flocking
after ONE boy who has NO idea how to handle all the attention 'cause in
reality, he's a "shy, 'nice' boy")
I want Anime to do away with its preoccupation with 12 year-olds
I want Anime without gratuity (read: sex, violence)
I want Anime to develop plots intelligently
I want Anime to develop characters believeably
I want a better crop of Anime comedies
I want Anime to portey realistic depictions of sex and violence
I want Anime to dazzle me with technology and depictions of fantasy
worlds and NOT have them be the ONLY point of the title
In a word: I want Anime to be more like Macross, Macross Plus,
Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Wings of Honneamise, Crying Freeman,
Roujin Z, Sol Bianca, Area 88, Battle Angel, Nausicaa, Laputa, Gundam,
Evangelion, Memories, Bubblegum Crisis (sans cheezy J-pop), Dirty Pair,
Project A-Ko, Urusei Yatsura.
I want Anime to stop pandering to me
I still believe Anime hasn't fully realized the potential of its
medium and is still content to allow itself to be defined by the medium it
is: "Animated" and so therefore only really for little kids and loser
fan-boys. Anime could be so much more, and I see more and more titles
trying to germinate into intelligent, and provocative mediums....but there's
still a long way to go to dispell the old myths about it.
And I certainly don't want Anime in America to fall into a
category where it condescends to the lowest-common denominator where the
only way it can be accepted it through graphic depictions of sex,
violence, and heavy-handed "nior" stylistics. There's a difference
between "adult" and "obnoxious".
If "Spawn" has the potential to open up the American audience even
more to "adult" animation, I don't want them thinking there's only one
route to take. Animation can be "adult" and intelligent, too. (Not to
say that Spawn isn't, I just don't want people thinking Spawn's sucess is
due to the violence and nothing else).
---Dmambu
Jeb Hoge
dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>
> In article <3379C3...@nospam.worldnet.att.net>, Jeb Hoge <EIE...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > I agree, but...what the hell do we want?
>
> I'm glad you asked that sonny-boy.
>
> What the hell that I want:
<excellent list snipped>
> In a word: I want Anime to be more like Macross, Macross Plus,
> Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Wings of Honneamise, Crying Freeman,
> Roujin Z, Sol Bianca, Area 88, Battle Angel, Nausicaa, Laputa, Gundam,
> Evangelion, Memories, Bubblegum Crisis (sans cheezy J-pop), Dirty Pair,
> Project A-Ko, Urusei Yatsura.
Good list...now I know what to rent next time. :)
> I want Anime to stop pandering to me
>
> I still believe Anime hasn't fully realized the potential of its
> medium and is still content to allow itself to be defined by the medium it
> is: "Animated" and so therefore only really for little kids and loser
> fan-boys. Anime could be so much more, and I see more and more titles
> trying to germinate into intelligent, and provocative mediums....but there's
> still a long way to go to dispell the old myths about it.
> And I certainly don't want Anime in America to fall into a
> category where it condescends to the lowest-common denominator where the
> only way it can be accepted it through graphic depictions of sex,
> violence, and heavy-handed "nior" stylistics. There's a difference
> between "adult" and "obnoxious".
> If "Spawn" has the potential to open up the American audience even
> more to "adult" animation, I don't want them thinking there's only one
> route to take. Animation can be "adult" and intelligent, too. (Not to
> say that Spawn isn't, I just don't want people thinking Spawn's sucess is
> due to the violence and nothing else).
Wow...that was a good response to a rhetorical question. I'll even let the
"sonny-boy" pass. :) I just hope that what's going to happen doesn't.
Spawn most likely will be a novelty, sort of the way lots of anime is to
people who for whatever reason don't GET it. It grated so bad when someone
would start mimicking (poorly) Japanese while I was watching BGC in public
rooms before I got a VCR in college. I think Golgo 13 was the only anime
that I didn't have someone goof on while I was watching it.
So what would it take to get an all-anime satellite or cable channel?
Ru Igarashi
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD (ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>In article <1997May14.154205.162083@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I want Anime to do away with cliched, maniacle bad-guy speeches
>> I want Anime to not pander to the 4 year-old inside of me. (read:
>>NO cute sidekicks, NO magical girls, NO tales of highschool girls flocking
>>after ONE boy who has NO idea how to handle all the attention 'cause in
>>reality, he's a "shy, 'nice' boy")
>
>Oh, boy, you're gonna get slammed hard on this one, starting with me.
>
><rant mode on> I suspect that, at least in the case of the highschool
>girls flocking after one boy, you're thinking of Tenchi and Ranma, to name
>two which I'm rather familiar with. Gee, it's too bad you find them so
>immature, since I don't. As a matter of fact, I often _relate_ to the
>characters in both of those anime, although it's not always Tenchi or
>Ranma. But since it's pandering to the 4 year-old in me, I guess that
>means I'm greviously immature and those anime have no redeeming features
>which an intelligent, mature, adult engineer could possibly appreciate,
>huh? <rant mode off>
I really don't know what the rant or slamming is for. It's fine
if you or he contest what qualifies for a reasonable anime for
this thread, but a contradiction does not mean either of you
are in the wrong. As far as dark anime is concerned, it WOULD
be difficult to put Tenchi or Ranma in that programming slot.
Certainly, a high degree of silliness wouldn't fit in this
slot no matter how well developed anyone thinks it is. I think
the point is, the tickling type of anime won't do, but the kind
that burns would.
On the otherhand, something like GitS or Vampire Princess Miyu
would fit in much better. I wonder if the upcoming VPM TV would
be suitable? It would be interesting to see if it could attract
the following of vampire and X-files type of enthusiasts.
ru
dma...@forest.drew.edu
Whoops. Sorry. :) Not sure how that snuck in there.
> I just hope that what's going to happen doesn't.
> Spawn most likely will be a novelty, sort of the way lots of anime is to
> people who for whatever reason don't GET it. It grated so bad when someone
> would start mimicking (poorly) Japanese while I was watching BGC in public
> rooms before I got a VCR in college. I think Golgo 13 was the only anime
> that I didn't have someone goof on while I was watching it.
>
> So what would it take to get an all-anime satellite or cable channel?
Just a couple more million Anime fans like you and me. Seriously.
---Dmambu
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <5ldeh0$b...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
> In article <1997May14.154205.162083@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I want an Anime title that dosen't spout off techno-babble for
>>techno-babble's sake
>
> Examples?
Wow. If you need examples of this then you really haven't
watched, like, HALF of the anime titles out there. I'll point you, then,
in the direction of anything Sonoda and Shirow related for STARTERS....
>> I want Anime to do away with cliched, maniacle bad-guy speeches
>> I want Anime to not pander to the 4 year-old inside of me. (read:
>>NO cute sidekicks, NO magical girls, NO tales of highschool girls flocking
>>after ONE boy who has NO idea how to handle all the attention 'cause in
>>reality, he's a "shy, 'nice' boy")
>
> Oh, boy, you're gonna get slammed hard on this one, starting with me.
Good, 'cause, like, we NEED more of that on the net...
[rant munched]
>> I want Anime to develop plots intelligently
>
> But heaven forbid that an intelligent plot development be in an anime like
> Tenchi, right?
Ho-boy....Tenchi....sure, okay.
[snip]
>> I want a better crop of Anime comedies
>
> Like? And what are the crummy ones? I'd say that KOR is a comedy, and
> damned good, with believable character development, good plot lines, etc.
> I'd say that the Tenchi OVAs qualify as well, although they do break a
> couple of your other ideas, as I've already mentioned. How about Maison
> Ikkoku? It's so real and so excellent that it hurts to watch, but you
> laugh at the pain because it's so good. I can't put it down. Comedy
> and romance doesn't get much more realistic than MI, IMO.
Maybe. I haven't seen it so I didn't comment on it. But I'm
getting really *&^%$ing tired off all these "Romance-comedies" taking
place with highschoolers. Adults fall in love too, you know. I'd like
something _I_ can identify with. I stopped caring about highschool love
in, like, highschool.
>> I want Anime to portey realistic depictions of sex and violence
>> I want Anime to dazzle me with technology and depictions of fantasy
>>worlds and NOT have them be the ONLY point of the title
>>
>> In a word: I want Anime to be more like Macross, Macross Plus,
>>Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Wings of Honneamise, Crying Freeman,
>>Roujin Z, Sol Bianca, Area 88, Battle Angel, Nausicaa, Laputa, Gundam,
>>Evangelion, Memories, Bubblegum Crisis (sans cheezy J-pop), Dirty Pair,
>>Project A-Ko, Urusei Yatsura.
>
> Most of those are pretty damn good anime, but not always for the reasons
> in your wish list above. In fact, a good number of them break one or more
> of those criteria.
You're telling ME what break MY criteria? That's very.....
interesting. I think I have a good idea of what I like, though. I'd LOVE
to hear your examples of why they break "my criteria", however, since you
seem to be a stickler for them yet failed to provide any of your own....
>> I want Anime to stop pandering to me
>
> Funny, I thought that's what Urusei Yatsura does, all the while making you
> love the characters and watch them develop.
Well, that's you, I guess. I happen to find it funny without
being trite. It continuously finds ways to amuse me through subtle plot
twists. I don't consider that "pandering".
>> I still believe Anime hasn't fully realized the potential of its
>>medium and is still content to allow itself to be defined by the medium it
>>is: "Animated" and so therefore only really for little kids and loser
>>fan-boys. Anime could be so much more, and I see more and more titles
>>trying to germinate into intelligent, and provocative mediums....but there's
>>still a long way to go to dispell the old myths about it.
>
> I agree. But consider this for a moment: Animation has the problem you
> list mostly, AFAIK, in the US. Animation in Japan is a hell of a lot
> different.
See....that's the thing....it really ISN'T, though. Manga is an
all-ages phenominon, sure, but the main consumers of Anime are kids and
fanboys. Most of the Japanese I know say that Anime really isn't that
popular for "normally" developed people. (they were being a little harsh
but I got the point)
[another rant snipped]
> Personally, I think you're looking at anime the wrong way. Just because
> Ranma has all the girls in the world after him doesn't mean that the
> characters don't develop believably, or that the plots aren't intelligent.
> Is the series mostly fluff? Sure. But there's a hell of a lot more to it
> than the surface. It's your loss if you're not willing to look below
> that.
I haven't seen Ranma either so I did not comment on it, as well.
Any inferences you made from my post were on your part clearly, since I
don't make it a habit of commenting on things I haven't seen. However,
from what I hear Ranma is indeed funny, albiet a little repetitive. I'll
have to watch it before I can be sure.
>> And I certainly don't want Anime in America to fall into a
>>category where it condescends to the lowest-common denominator where the
>>only way it can be accepted it through graphic depictions of sex,
>>violence, and heavy-handed "nior" stylistics. There's a difference
>>between "adult" and "obnoxious".
>
> Very true. But your definition of adult isn't broad enough.
Okay. So give the examples you're so fond of evoking
> But just because you don't see intelligence or adult topics in some anime
> doesn't mean that it isn't there. Watch any Disney movie in a theatre and
> see how many jokes the parents get that the kids don't, or count the
> historical references, or snigger at the all but blatent sexual
> connotations. Alladin, if you're watching it on the right level, has a
> hell of a lot more going for it than the little kids can possibly realize.
Uh.....I never said anything about those titles, you did. In fact
I *LIKE* most of what Disney has released because, sans the stupid musical
numbers, they tend to have very mature overtones. Methinks you doth
protest too much.....
> So does almost every anime I've ever seen, including Ranma, Tenchi, 3x3
> Eyes, El-Hazard, Phatom Quest Corp, Blue Seed, Dominion, Gunsmith Cats,
> Iria, the Mermaid Saga, Aa! Megami-sama, You're Under Arrest, etc.
Tenchi? El-Hazzard? Blue Seed? Gunsmith Cats? Mature?!?!
Okay....but you must be very young, then. Panty jokes, tittie shots and
hammerspace, while entertaining, don't usually make for examples of
"mature" programming, I feel.
> The point to all this? Well, to say that you're being way too
> restrictive. Now, that list was all in your opinion, and if I've gone
> overboard, I'm sorry. But it seems to me that you're writing off huge
> areas of anime far too easily and quickly. I'm telling you that's just
> plain wrong.
>
> IMHO, of course.
HAHAHAHA.....oh....it is to LAUGH: "rant, rant, rant, rant,
you're too this, too that, rant, rant" (pause) IMHO, of course."
ahhhh....I love the net. :)
---Dmambu
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5lec7q$m...@tribune.usask.ca>,
Ru Igarashi <r...@skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
>
>I really don't know what the rant or slamming is for. It's fine
>if you or he contest what qualifies for a reasonable anime for
>this thread, but a contradiction does not mean either of you
>are in the wrong. As far as dark anime is concerned, it WOULD
>be difficult to put Tenchi or Ranma in that programming slot.
From what little I know, you're absolutely right. Tenchi and Ranma are
too light for the slot. VPM, GitS, the second Patlabor movie(haven't seen
the TV series yet) and similar anime would fit better.
>Certainly, a high degree of silliness wouldn't fit in this
>slot no matter how well developed anyone thinks it is. I think
>the point is, the tickling type of anime won't do, but the kind
>that burns would.
If that was the point of his post, then I grossly misinterpreted it. It
felt like a condemnation of a lot of anime.
>On the otherhand, something like GitS or Vampire Princess Miyu
>would fit in much better. I wonder if the upcoming VPM TV would
>be suitable? It would be interesting to see if it could attract
>the following of vampire and X-files type of enthusiasts.
I'm hoping that it's as excellent as the OVAs, although that may be tough
for it to do.
Brian
<insert name here>
On 13 May 97 21:40:16 EST, dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>In article <5ladst$d1n$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) writes:
>> So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
>> assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
>> OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
>> Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>
> Great....something ELSE to give Anime a bad name in America. I
>can hear it now:
>
> "Yeah. Japanimation. I've heard of that. It's, like, stuff like
>'Akira' and 'Fist of the North Star' and 'Urotsukidoji'. I love that
>stuff. Especially after I saw [fill in the blank] on HBO. I never knew
>cartoons could be that violent."
gee-ODD! i just talked to this guy in a comic shop. man, it really
gets me upset... he was talking about a lot of other crap when i
brought up anime. then he says something along the lines of "anime
sucks" after i clearly said that it was great. i'm thinking, "not
only is this guy a complete and utter moron, but he's condemning an
entire genre based on his limited (very limited) knowledge of the
topic!" argh! i reacted very nicely and said that he should watch
something like please save my earth before writing it off entirely.
this was in response to his stating something about all that violence
and nudity. he said sure, but i'm not gonna spend any money on that
crap. i was thinking about lending it to him, but the more i think
about it, the more tired and frustrated i am about trying to sway all
the closed-minded idiots out there that don't even have the
intelligence to properly investigate an opinion before giving it!
yeah, i know there _are_ bad ones, but this guy was just /extremely/
ignorant.
well, it's kinda on topic,
gaburu
C. Mitch Hagmaier
In article <5ladst$d1n$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>
>As many of you may know by now, Todd McFarlane's SPAWN is now a late-night
>animated series on HBO (Fridays at Midnight EST). It seems to be
>definitely geared towards a mature audience (it's even listed under "Drama"
>in the cable guide). After Spawn finishes its 6-episode run, it is to be
>replaced by Ralph Bakshi's "Spicy City" (Bakshi returns to his bad ol' 70's
>urban style which made him notorious.)
>
>assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
>OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
>Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
>
Given the above examples, I'd say Midnight Eye Gokuu.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
randall floyd
dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>
> In article <3379C3...@nospam.worldnet.att.net>, Jeb Hoge <EIE...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >>
> >> In article <5ladst$d1n$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) writes:
> >> > So, assume for a minute that you're in charge of HBO Animation. Your
> >> > assignment, should you choose to accept it, will be to select an anime
> >> > OVA series or TV show to follow up on the footsteps of these shows.
> >> > Something suitably dark and explicit... any suggestions?
> >>
> >> can hear it now:
> >>
> >> "Yeah. Japanimation. I've heard of that. It's, like, stuff like
> >> 'Akira' and 'Fist of the North Star' and 'Urotsukidoji'. I love that
> >> stuff. Especially after I saw [fill in the blank] on HBO. I never knew
> >> cartoons could be that violent."
> >>
> >
> > I agree, but...what the hell do we want?
>
> I'm glad you asked that sonny-boy.
>
> What the hell that I want:
>
<snip a snip snip>
geez... it almost sounds like you DON'T want anime... you named
everything that makes alot of anime great and appealing in many ways and
said you don't want it... well i want it... i'll take it... give it to
me... i'll appreciate it...
> ---Dmambu
take care..
Ookami
David Watson
As for a "mature romantic comedy," the only title that comes to mind right
away is Compiler, and even then, IMHO the comic parts aren't that comic.
But I can assure you that most of the cast are adult.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (Re-release the _Stretcher_ EP!)
Frezier Balzoff (Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email-...@Freenet.carleton.ca
"A man is measured by the depth of his anger."--Eddie
ONTARIO--Where FASCIST PRAGMATISM and DEFICIT HYSTERIA pass for COMMON SENSE.
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5lf6dr$4...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
David Watson <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>As for a "mature romantic comedy," the only title that comes to mind right
>away is Compiler, and even then, IMHO the comic parts aren't that comic.
>But I can assure you that most of the cast are adult.
Haven't seen it, but I'd say that Maison Ikkoku qualifies as well. Hell,
a lot of things qualify, but that's for a different post.
Brian
Michael Powers
On 15 May 1997 16:57:49 GMT, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN
EDWARD) wrote:
>
>Haven't seen it, but I'd say that Maison Ikkoku qualifies as well. Hell,
>a lot of things qualify, but that's for a different post.
Except I get the idea that what they're thinking of for HBO is less
"Maison Ikkoku" than "Ikkoku: House of the Shaolin Death Masters!"
with hyper-detailed pictures of people's innards being punched out.
How are they advertising the Spawn animation, anyway? Is it another
one of those lameass "Cartoons for Adults!" things? "IT'S NOT JUST
FOR KIDS ANYMORE!" Feh. Why not just advertise it like any other TV
show? You don't see Simpsons ads trumpeting the fact that it's
animated. They don't have a big trailer that runs before the Critic
saying "and now, the Channel 8 Animated Hour!"
Mike Powers
dma...@forest.drew.edu
Fine.....then take it. I'll keep the good stuff.
---Dmambu
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <1997May15.050447.162127@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
>> Examples?
>
> Wow. If you need examples of this then you really haven't
>watched, like, HALF of the anime titles out there. I'll point you, then,
>in the direction of anything Sonoda and Shirow related for STARTERS....
I've seen most of the anime by both of them, actually. BGC, Appleseed,
Black Magic, Dominion, GitS, Gunsmith Cats, etc. All are good, some are
excellent. I guess I'd like examples of anime which spouts technobabble
for it's own sake. I can't think of a single one out of all the anime
I've seen(and I've seen a good amount).
>
> Good, 'cause, like, we NEED more of that on the net...
>
True enough. Sorry about the rant. I'll be a lot more logical, rational,
etc. in this post.
>>> I want Anime to develop plots intelligently
>>
>> But heaven forbid that an intelligent plot development be in an anime like
>> Tenchi, right?
>
> Ho-boy....Tenchi....sure, okay.
I take it you disagree that Tenchi has intelligent plot development.
Well, that's certainly your right.
> Maybe. I haven't seen it so I didn't comment on it. But I'm
>getting really *&^%$ing tired off all these "Romance-comedies" taking
>place with highschoolers. Adults fall in love too, you know. I'd like
>something _I_ can identify with. I stopped caring about highschool love
>in, like, highschool.
I highly recommend Maison Ikkoku, then. It's about a college student
falling in love with the manager of his apartment building(gross
oversimplification) who is still enamored of her dead husband. Excellent
anime. As for highschool love, I guess I have a question: Do you find it
possible to relate to something that represents only your current position
in life? Or can you relate to something which has occured to you in the
past or might in the future? I enjoy many anime with love triangles and
similar situations because I've been there, even if not at this particular
moment in my life. I can relate to the characters. If I can relate to
the characters, if the romance feels real to me, than I don't care if it's
highschoolers falling in love or not, because the meaning is still the
same for me. If Godai falls in love with an unavailable woman(Maison
Ikkoku) or if Ataru finds himself falling in love with Lum but his pride
won't let him admit it, I can still relate, even though I'm not in high
school anymore.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that my being able to relate to a given
character is independant of what age that character is depicted as being,
within reason(I have trouble relating to 60-year olds falling in love, for
example).
>>> In a word: I want Anime to be more like Macross, Macross Plus,
>>>Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Wings of Honneamise, Crying Freeman,
>>>Roujin Z, Sol Bianca, Area 88, Battle Angel, Nausicaa, Laputa, Gundam,
>>>Evangelion, Memories, Bubblegum Crisis (sans cheezy J-pop), Dirty Pair,
>>>Project A-Ko, Urusei Yatsura.
>>
>> Most of those are pretty damn good anime, but not always for the reasons
>> in your wish list above. In fact, a good number of them break one or more
>> of those criteria.
>
> You're telling ME what break MY criteria? That's very.....
>interesting. I think I have a good idea of what I like, though. I'd LOVE
>to hear your examples of why they break "my criteria", however, since you
>seem to be a stickler for them yet failed to provide any of your own....
Since you asked, I'll tell you why I think some of the anime break
your criteria, but I'll limit myself to the ones I've seen, which are some
of Dirty Pair, both Patlabor movies, Urusei Yatsura, Project A-ko, Ghost
in the Shell, Bubblegum, Battle Angel, Akira, and Macross Plus.
Patlabor 1 has very unrealistic depictions of violence, IMO. Urusei
Yatsura has a lot of character development, especially on the part of
Ataru, but everyone except Shinobu, Mendou, Lum, and Ataru are generally
static, until you get to the OVAs and the movies, where Lum's
Stormtroopers finally get a life, etc. In addition, while the plots
within a single episode are relatively fleshed out, there is very little
overall plot development for the series, at least not in what I've seen.
And the "it's a warped dream" excuse used in two of the movies leaves a
lot to be desired. I've only seen a few Dirty Pair, but what I've seen
shows a marked lack of character development on the part of Kay and Yuri,
although the parody level of Dirty Pair is simply wonderful to behold.
Bubblegum has a lot of character development and excellent plot
development, but the characters range in age from 19 to 23. Not
particularly realistic, is it, to have the most technologically advanced
powered armor in the world developed by a 23 year-old, and to have a 19
year-old member of the ADP? In addition, have you noticed that the cops
NEVER look into the past of the Knight Sabres, or try to arrest them? And
Genom, the most powerful corp on the planet never gets upset when the
Knight Sabres screw with thier plans.... Project A-ko is very funny, but
it's a parody, largely of all the complaints you made. Because of this, I
find no major problems with it and your criteria. Battle Angel shows
gritty, dirty violence in a world gone awry, but it shows two junior high
aged kids falling in love, something you said you don't care about. But
that's the only problem I've seen with Battle Angel, at least on only a
single viewing. Ghost in the Shell has a lot of excellent points, but it
has an ending which makes very little sense, considering the technophobic
direction of the movie, which totally destroys the plot continuity. The
ending makes a little more sense in the manga, since the manga is more
technophilic than technophobic, but it still feels wrong. Akira and
Macross Plus I have no complaints with.
Now, having said all that, I'll give you my criteria for what makes an
anime mature: Any anime is considered mature if it adresses and comments
on social, political, cultural, technical, scientific, personal,
religious, etc. issues. Are all those anime above mature, by this
definition? Absolutely. But so are a lot of other anime you seem to be
discounting. I'll go into that below.
>
> Well, that's you, I guess. I happen to find it funny without
>being trite. It continuously finds ways to amuse me through subtle plot
>twists. I don't consider that "pandering".
Good point. I withdraw my comments.
>> I agree. But consider this for a moment: Animation has the problem you
>> list mostly, AFAIK, in the US. Animation in Japan is a hell of a lot
>> different.
>
> See....that's the thing....it really ISN'T, though. Manga is an
>all-ages phenominon, sure, but the main consumers of Anime are kids and
>fanboys. Most of the Japanese I know say that Anime really isn't that
>popular for "normally" developed people. (they were being a little harsh
>but I got the point)
I feel that, at some level, it is very different. If it wasn't, at some
fundamental level, then Ghost in the Shell, Bubblegum Crisis and AD
Police, and Sohryuden-Legend of the Dragon Kings would never have been
created in the first place - they're generally too politically or socially
charged to be created in the US. That doesn't mean that animation gets
more respect in Japan from non-viewers than it does here, only that there
has to be some fundamental difference which promotes the creation of
excellent and adult animation in Japan that doesn't exist in the US.
> I haven't seen Ranma either so I did not comment on it, as well.
>Any inferences you made from my post were on your part clearly, since I
>don't make it a habit of commenting on things I haven't seen. However,
>from what I hear Ranma is indeed funny, albiet a little repetitive. I'll
>have to watch it before I can be sure.
My apologies. I will refrain in the future from assuming that everyone
has seen some Ranma.
>> Very true. But your definition of adult isn't broad enough.
>
> Okay. So give the examples you're so fond of evoking
I will shortly.
>> But just because you don't see intelligence or adult topics in some anime
>> doesn't mean that it isn't there. Watch any Disney movie in a theatre and
>> see how many jokes the parents get that the kids don't, or count the
>> historical references, or snigger at the all but blatent sexual
>> connotations. Alladin, if you're watching it on the right level, has a
>> hell of a lot more going for it than the little kids can possibly realize.
>
> Uh.....I never said anything about those titles, you did. In fact
>I *LIKE* most of what Disney has released because, sans the stupid musical
>numbers, they tend to have very mature overtones. Methinks you doth
>protest too much.....
Perhaps, but I was trying to draw a comparison. A lot of anime is like
Disney in that it has several levels, and that it can be watched on any or
all of those levels. I'll give a lot of examples of how the anime you
don't feel are mature, when watched a little deeper, have a lot of social,
political, etc. commentary.
>> So does almost every anime I've ever seen, including Ranma, Tenchi, 3x3
>> Eyes, El-Hazard, Phatom Quest Corp, Blue Seed, Dominion, Gunsmith Cats,
>> Iria, the Mermaid Saga, Aa! Megami-sama, You're Under Arrest, etc.
>
> Tenchi? El-Hazzard? Blue Seed? Gunsmith Cats? Mature?!?!
>Okay....but you must be very young, then. Panty jokes, tittie shots and
>hammerspace, while entertaining, don't usually make for examples of
>"mature" programming, I feel.
Yes, Tenchi, El-Hazard, Blue Seed, Gunsmith Cats, etc. are all mature.
Here's why. What follows is a list of a lot of anime which you might not
feel are mature, and the issues which I feel make them mature. Not as
mature, perhaps, as other anime, but you seem to feel that Bubblegum is a
mature, adult anime regardless of the titty shots, so I hope you'll read
this list with an open mind.
Blue Seed: The tenticles, panty jokes, and such are all so over-the-top
that I can't help but feel that they are intended as satire and parody of
hentai anime. In the 14 or 16 episodes I've watched so far, Blue Seed has
presented commentary on the following issues: environmentalism or the
lack thereof, the limits of friendship, government censorship of a
supposedly free press, predestination vs. free will, sacrificing
relationships for the sake of a career, the difficulties of expressing
emotions like love, chivalry, obsession, death of a loved one, and how
difficult moving on after a relationship ends is.
Tenchi Muyo: The T&A in Tenchi all serves a purpose. For example, in the
first series, at the hot springs, Ryoko's unashamed nudity in front of
Tenchi serves to strengthen a certain perception of her character, while
Aeka's accidental nudity reinforces the viewer's perception of her as a
very proper woman. Issues presented in Tenchi Muyo(OVAs only) include
motherhood, social and political responsibility and the avoidance thereof,
the discovery of hidden strengths, respect and honor of other people and
elders, honesty, substance vs. style, experience vs. youth, slavery, the
quest for knowledge as a consuming force, and the corruption of power.
Gunsmith Cats: I've only seen these OVAs once, so the only issues I can
immediately come up with are corruption(government, in general), the
importance of freedoms we take for granted, and the US response to the
collapse of the USSR.
El-Hazard: The characters are well developed, and grow a LOT during the
series(OVA only - I've not seen the TV). The plot holds together tightly
and is well written. The issues raised in this series include alcoholism
and drug abuse, the idiocy of Mutually Assured Destruction, how
restrictive certain cultural mores are(like homosexuality), the
straightjacket imposed on people via arranged and/or political marriages,
jealousy, and how our everyday lives affect others in ways we can't even
imagine. But the main issue is hope - how little of it there really is,
and how hard it is to maintain some in a world where there is so little.
Armitage III: I'm not sure you'd find fault with this anime, but I'm
including it just because it is a giant commentary on racism and feminism.
Sohryuden - This anime is the most politically and socially charged anime
I've ever seen, with commentary on the military-industrial complex, U.S.
imperialism(both past and present), the power of corporations over daily
life and government, government corruption(specifically of Japanese
government), the potential power of a large beaurocracy, and some
heavy-duty criticism of the Japanese school system.
Aa! Megami-sama! and You're Under Arrest: Each has a lot of commentary on
the changing roles of women in Japan, keeping promises, integrity and
honesty, public vs. private lives, the importance of friendships and/or
loving relationships over anything else in life, and the propensity of
people to chose work over thier various relationships.
Vampire Princess Miyu: The premise of the OVAs is that the world is
radically stranger than we realize, but the issues raised in the 4
episodes include a lot more than just the premise of weirdness. For
example betrayal of love, jealousy, vengeance, pity, pennance for our
"crimes".
I know you haven't seen Maison Ikkoku or Ranma 1/2 yet, but for the
benefit of others who have and are following our discussion, I'll include
them. If you ever see either or both, please keep in mind the issues I've
found in them.
Maison Ikkoku: This anime deals with a potential relationship between a
ronin/college student(later in the anime) and a widow. It's main emphasis
is on the trials and tribulations that any loving relationship must go
through. Some of the difficulties are self-inflicted, some are caused by
others, some are normal or logical extensions of normal problems, others
are so absurd that they can't help but have happened(love is like that
sometimes). But beyond this is some severe criticism of the japanese
school system which produces ronin in the first place. Other issues
include how someone leaves a loved one behind or even if it's truly
possible, the acceptance of loss, living with honor in a society where
the value of honor is on the decline, and the realities of many/most
modern relationships.
Ranma 1/2: I'll hope everyone knows the premise of this series, at least
at some level, so I won't go into it(it would take forever...). This
series has some nudity in it, but again it all has a purpose, like making
Ranma, even as a woman, more male than female(supposedly women are more
concerned about being seen nude than men). This series is a lot like
Urusei Yatsura in that the plot development of the series takes back-seat
to the character development. The characters start off a certain way, and
the show is ver much how they mature, how they come to realize and
overcome their weaknesses or at least how to deal with said weaknesses.
Other issues include the changing roles of women in Japan, how money can
corrupt, how love can appear totally out of the blue, pride and egotism,
vengeance, etc. There are a lot more, but that's good enough for now.
All those above reasons are why I feel those various anime qualify as
mature and adult. I hope that clarifies my position some.
>
> HAHAHAHA.....oh....it is to LAUGH: "rant, rant, rant, rant,
>you're too this, too that, rant, rant" (pause) IMHO, of course."
>
> ahhhh....I love the net. :)
>
> ---Dmambu
Sorry about the ranting. I hope this post was a lot less antagonistic.
I have tried to make it a lot more reasonable than the last one.
Brian
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <337b5764...@news.larc.nasa.gov>,
Michael Powers <mpo...@mail.widowmaker.com> wrote:
>
>Except I get the idea that what they're thinking of for HBO is less
>"Maison Ikkoku" than "Ikkoku: House of the Shaolin Death Masters!"
>with hyper-detailed pictures of people's innards being punched out.
From the rest of this thread, I suspect you're right. My comment was more
about the direction that part of this thread is going(should probably be
renamed in the future....)
Brian
Arnold Kim
On 15 May 1997, ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD wrote:
>
> In article <5lf6dr$4...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> David Watson <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >
> >As for a "mature romantic comedy," the only title that comes to mind right
> >away is Compiler, and even then, IMHO the comic parts aren't that comic.
>
> Haven't seen it, but I'd say that Maison Ikkoku qualifies as well. Hell,
> a lot of things qualify, but that's for a different post.
Well, even that can get a little silly at times. But for the most part it
is a mature, _very_ well done anime and manga.
Arnold Kim
"You've got to be careful if you don't know where you're going, because
you might not get there"- Yogi Berra
=============================================================================
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/ \/ \ |at UMich, at:
RANMA SAOTOME! | | AKANE TENDO! |
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Akane Tendo! Ayanami Rei! Lina Inverse!| Michigan rocks!
=============================================================================
Enrique Conty
In article <5lfpcl$p...@lace.colorado.edu> ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
>In article <337b5764...@news.larc.nasa.gov>,
>Michael Powers <mpo...@mail.widowmaker.com> wrote:
>>Except I get the idea that what they're thinking of for HBO is less
>>"Maison Ikkoku" than "Ikkoku: House of the Shaolin Death Masters!"
>>with hyper-detailed pictures of people's innards being punched out.
>From the rest of this thread, I suspect you're right.
That was the intent. Some very good responses
(and a *great* aside by Damian Roc(?)).
Maybe we should be sending suggestions to HBO Animation?
--
Enrique Conty
Software Cowhand
co...@cig.mot.com
http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Ru Igarashi
Arnold Kim (arn...@umich.edu) wrote:
>On 15 May 1997, ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD wrote:
>>
>> Haven't seen it, but I'd say that Maison Ikkoku qualifies as well. Hell,
>> a lot of things qualify, but that's for a different post.
>
>Well, even that can get a little silly at times. But for the most part it
>is a mature, _very_ well done anime and manga.
Perhaps it qualifies. I couldn't stand the first few episodes and
haven't bothered since. I don't like the plot or most of the
characters. That I don't object to how the plot is executed or
the characters are developed means that I could imagine it in the
programming slot of concern, PROVIDED it is DARK (maturity isn't
enough). Of course, I still wouldn't watch it, even if it were
broadcast unmodified on free TV. :)
ru
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <1997May15.145345.162149@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
> Yep. The point of my origional post was to show that "adult"
>Anime dosne't necessarily have to be "Dark". If I appeared to do other
>wise I'm sorry. I'm not advocating we get rid of all the kiddie-kawaii
>crap out there (though I'd _LOVE_ to do that if I were, like, God or
>something) I just feel Anime is contnuously missing the boat when it tries
>to make "mature" Anime. (read: on the same level as "mature" real-life
>cinema) Usually the adult titles pander to people with fetishes for lots
>of gratuitous violence and sex and obnoxious displays of technology with
>little consideration for plot and character developement on a "mature"
>level, I feel. And except for the titles I listed, I don't feel there's
>much out there for someone my age (21 almost 22) who's looking for a
>viable, intelligent art form.
That's too bad. And I feel that you're missing out on a huge variety of
anime because of it. So very little anime falls within your criteria for
"mature" that you will miss a good 90% of the best anime that has been
made, for one reason or another, be it the occasional nudity, unrealistic
violence, character development over plot development(or vice-versa), etc.
A great anime doesn't have to have the surrealness of Patlabor 2, or the
hard technical background of Ghost in the Shell to be great, just like it
doesn't have to be dark. I find it interesting, though, that most of the
anime you listed in the other post would qualify as "dark", in the sense
that the worlds portrayed in said anime are depressing or overpopulated or
polluted or.... Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell, Bubblegum, Patlabor(both
movies), and Akira. I've heard that Area 88 qualifies, as does Macross.
Project A-ko and Dirty Pair take some maturity to understand and
appreciate, but they, along with Urusei Yatsura, also could be easily
argued as being immature(I won't argue it here, though).
I don't suspect that they are "dark" in the sense of this discussion,
since they could very easily be "lighter" than Spawn(I really don't know,
not having seen Spawn), but they aren't particularly light-hearted in
general.
> There's a gulf of difference in maturity between, say, "Akira"
>and "Patlabor 2". Akira is a good movie.....but Patlabor 2 is a FILM. I
>want more films in my Anime.
I disagree. The animation is more surreal, but Akira raises a lot more
issues than Patlabor 2 does. That makes Akira a more mature anime than
Patlabor 2 in my book. Patlabor 2 presents commentary on one or two
issues, but does them very well, albeit in a manner which distracts in
many places from the message while adding to it in others. IMO, Akira
does a much better job of presenting its issues, even if it doesn't
necessarily go as in-depth into each.
Now, while I disagree with your opinions on what is mature content and
what anime qualify as "films", I agree that there should be more
"films" in anime. But as such recent shows as Evangelion show, anime is
doing an excellent job of creating mature content.
I find it a bit ironic that you claim to consider Evangelion a "mature"
anime yet a healthy chunk of it is devoted to the relationship between
Shinji, Rei, and Asuka, three 14 year-olds. I don't disagree that Eva is
a mature anime, though. It's mature and excellent, possibly the best
anime I have ever seen.
Brian
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <5lfos8$p...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
> In article <1997May15.050447.162127@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
[a whole lot munched for reasons I'll explain below]
> Patlabor 1 has very unrealistic depictions of violence, IMO.
You're really going to have a tough time selling that opinion,
especially in light of the things you say later on. I'm not trying to
attack you.....but you have to understand, I don't know of ANYONE, on the
net or off, who thinks Patlabor 1 has "Unrealistic" depictions of
violence. (does it even HAVE depictions of violence???)
> Urusei Yatsura has a lot of character development, especially on the part
> of Ataru, but everyone except Shinobu, Mendou, Lum, and Ataru are generally
> static, until you get to the OVAs and the movies, where Lum's
> Stormtroopers finally get a life, etc.
Well, then you proved my point. See....the show DOES develop. :)
[snipped]
> Now, having said all that, I'll give you my criteria for what makes an
> anime mature: Any anime is considered mature if it adresses and comments
> on social, political, cultural, technical, scientific, personal,
> religious, etc. issues.
Not necessarily at all. Just because something tackles a
"weighty" issue dosen't make it any more mature than something that
dosen't. In fact, it makes the show far MORE likely to be a poor attempt
at social critique whereas a show that has little pretention as possible
inherent in the script can avoid the cliches of political, social, etc.
commentary.
I think you're misinterperteting my assertion of wanting "mature"
Anime - and that might be a fault of my own writing skills. "Mature" (in
my origional post) is not meant to be a request for "weighty" issues in
Anime, necessarily. It is a yearing for fewer cliches in Anime. I want
the stories, whatever they are, to be less like the rest of the crop out
there. It's a request for more creativity, not in the peripheral field of
gadgets, visuals, kawaii-girls, etc., but in the actual structure of the
story: plot and character developement on par with the bast that Real
life cinema maintains. I've seen so #*^%ing much Anime that I'm no longer
impressed with a "cooler robot", "grittier-world", or "neater spaceship
design". I'm more concerned, now, with believeable characters (read:
non-cliched characters), and believable plots (read: yeah...you get the
point). And this, I feel, is a switch from a more juvenile method of
stroytelling to one that is more mature. Anime is, after all, the telling
of a story. And you can have the coolest stuff in it, visually, but if
the story sucks, then, well, I'm not going to like the Anime.
[more munched]
As far as American vs. Japanese perceptions of "mature" Anime go,
you made some good points, and all I'm going to say is this: Don't
confuse "mature" topics covered, with the preoccupations of fan-boys.
[even more munched]
Look, there's no reason to debate something like the inherent
"maturity" of a title since what you and I have mentioned all comes down to
a matter of taste. And from the examples given it seems that you like
what most people would consider the "lighter fare" of Anime (no, I haven't
asked all of them, but if I did, I'm sure they'd agree based on previous
converations both on and off the net) while I just don't. And this was
the reason for my origional post. But you're addressing things that
I really didn't want to. You're mentioning things that have already been
released while I'm making wishfull projections for the future. That's
fine....but I really didn't want to get into a discussion of the merit of
specific shows.
However, some things that were said just HAVE to be addressed. :)
I'm a very lenient person when it comes to reading into a title, and I
*LIKE* origionality in interperetation. (hey, I'm a History major, so I
appreciate the ability to BS well) But trying to pass off a title as
being "deep" when, really, such depth is not there....well, looks bad,
frankly. I mean, to claim that Blue Seed is mature because it deals with
"predestination, government censorship AND being a 'satire' (a term that
gets used FAR too often to rationalize mediocre shows) of hentai " is
pushing it. Similarly, claiming Tenchi's T&A "Serves a purpose to show us
about the personalities of Ryoko, et all." and therefore is necessary, is
really giving glorified fan-service too much credit. I can think of a
zillion other ways to elucidate the inner-personality of a character rather
than have her bare-ass naked in front of everyone. That nudity isn't
there for the characters - it's there for YOU. :)
And the list goes on - Gunsmith Cats about "corruption and the
importance of freedom"....? El-Hazzard tackleing issues of "Alcoholism
and Drug abuse, social mores, and the actions of everyday people having
extrordinary consequences"....? (then there was the above comment of
Patlabor having "unrealistic" depictions of violence).
Look, it's okay to enjoy "light-hearted" Anime. You don't have to
qualify the fact you like the less weighty stuff by trying to ascribe
things to it that JUST AREN'T THERE. It looks a little pretentious. This
is not an attack on you, just an observation of the practice in general.
I wish the fans of these types of shows would just call a spade a spade
and admit that those kind of shows just aren't as mature as other shows,
like Macross Plus and Wings of Honneamise. But that's okay. They have a
purpose and they serve it well. I, however, would like less of it because
I think Anime has a lot of potential as a "serious" art form, and only
recently has it begun to explore those options. But it dosen't have to
resort to gratuity (sex, violence, technology) to be "mature". After all,
it's really all about storytelling.
---Dmambu
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <5lg2pr$33h$1...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>, co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) writes:
> In article <5lfpcl$p...@lace.colorado.edu> ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
>>In article <337b5764...@news.larc.nasa.gov>,
>>Michael Powers <mpo...@mail.widowmaker.com> wrote:
>>>Except I get the idea that what they're thinking of for HBO is less
>>>"Maison Ikkoku" than "Ikkoku: House of the Shaolin Death Masters!"
>>>with hyper-detailed pictures of people's innards being punched out.
>>From the rest of this thread, I suspect you're right.
>
> That was the intent. Some very good responses
> (and a *great* aside by Damian Roc(?)).
Really. I didn't get it yet. What'd he write?
---Dmambu
Enrique Conty
Well, it was either him or you. That long post about adult vs mature
(with which I agree).
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <Pine.UW2.3.95.970516030522.27308F-100000@cyber2>, Cernovog <cern...@eberus.buf.servtech.com> writes:
> On 14 May 1997 dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>
>> If "Spawn" has the potential to open up the American audience even
>> more to "adult" animation, I don't want them thinking there's only one
>> route to take. Animation can be "adult" and intelligent, too. (Not to
>> say that Spawn isn't, I just don't want people thinking Spawn's sucess is
>> due to the violence and nothing else).
>>
Oh....right, how could I forget? :) Well, that just makes all the
difference then, dosen't it? Arrrrrgggg.....
---Dmambu <---- *repeatedly smacking head against wall*
Arnold Kim
On 16 May 1997, Ru Igarashi wrote:
>
> Arnold Kim (arn...@umich.edu) wrote:
> >On 15 May 1997, ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD wrote:
> >>
> >> Haven't seen it, but I'd say that Maison Ikkoku qualifies as well. Hell,
> >> a lot of things qualify, but that's for a different post.
> >
> >Well, even that can get a little silly at times. But for the most part it
> >is a mature, _very_ well done anime and manga.
>
> Perhaps it qualifies. I couldn't stand the first few episodes and
> haven't bothered since.
MI is in my opinion, something you should read/view in bulk. The stories
are best when viewed in the context of the rest of the series and are not
as strong (but still great) on their own. If you look at MI, it is all
just one really big story, with a definite beginning, middle, and
conclusion. The first few epissodes may seem a little boring because all
it really does is set up the story and establish characters, which is
necessary for a work like MI.
I don't like the plot or most of the
> characters.
I guess I could see that, but like I said, you need to watch more than the
first few eps. to see the story get into full bloom.
That I don't object to how the plot is executed or
> the characters are developed means that I could imagine it in the
> programming slot of concern, PROVIDED it is DARK (maturity isn't
> enough).
Yeah. MI is a mature, but usually lighthearted anime series.
Julian Fong
In article <1997May16.011235.162183@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
> I think you're misinterperteting my assertion of wanting "mature"
>Anime - and that might be a fault of my own writing skills. "Mature" (in
>my origional post) is not meant to be a request for "weighty" issues in
>Anime, necessarily. It is a yearing for fewer cliches in Anime. I want
>the stories, whatever they are, to be less like the rest of the crop out
>there. It's a request for more creativity, not in the peripheral field of
>gadgets, visuals, kawaii-girls, etc., but in the actual structure of the
>story: plot and character developement on par with the bast that Real
>life cinema maintains. I've seen so #*^%ing much Anime that I'm no longer
>impressed with a "cooler robot", "grittier-world", or "neater spaceship
>design". I'm more concerned, now, with believeable characters (read:
>non-cliched characters), and believable plots (read: yeah...you get the
>point). And this, I feel, is a switch from a more juvenile method of
>stroytelling to one that is more mature. Anime is, after all, the telling
>of a story. And you can have the coolest stuff in it, visually, but if
>the story sucks, then, well, I'm not going to like the Anime.
You'll need to resign yourself to the likelyhood that you're
not going to get want you want, for this reason: Anime, like any other
form of popular entertainment, is made for *commercial* reasons first
and foremost. All the elements you say you dislike in anime exist
because they sell. Sex sells, violence sells, technofetishism sells,
cuteness sells. Cliches sell. Formulas sell.
In that sense, there's not much difference between the
animation industries in Japan or in the U.S., except that in Japan,
there are just a few more people in the industry with the inclination
and the means to put art ahead of money.
--
Julian Fong jhf...@ea.oac.uci.edu
00001000111110000100010000000011111111100001000100001111100010000
"I will chide no breather in the world but myself, against whom I know
most faults." - William Shakespeare, _As You Like It_, Act 3, Scene 2
Innpchan
In article <5lfcsa$62a$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, a...@spam-me-and-die.best.com
(yes, *that* Alex Lau) writes:
>In article <5lekkq$5u0$1...@pigpen.csrlink.net>,
>C. Mitch Hagmaier <kyo...@csrlink.net> wrote:
>>Given the above examples, I'd say Midnight Eye Gokuu.
>
>I'm surprised no one has mentioned Key the Metal Idol yet...
>--
You mean "Key" gets dark?!?!? COOL!!!! I loved the first three parts
already!
... and so far it's the best dub I've seen.
thepig
*****
Well, when it comes to outing lesbians, I'll take "Moonlight Rambler" over "Ellen" any day of the week. Of course, recent events imply that Disney's take on Kiki and Ursula in that cabin could be kinda scary...
*****
C.J. Scott --the pig
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <5lh08t$k...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
> In article <1997May15.145345.162149@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
>
>> Yep. The point of my origional post was to show that "adult"
>>Anime dosne't necessarily have to be "Dark". If I appeared to do other
>>wise I'm sorry. I'm not advocating we get rid of all the kiddie-kawaii
>>crap out there (though I'd _LOVE_ to do that if I were, like, God or
>>something) I just feel Anime is contnuously missing the boat when it tries
>>to make "mature" Anime. (read: on the same level as "mature" real-life
>>cinema) Usually the adult titles pander to people with fetishes for lots
>>of gratuitous violence and sex and obnoxious displays of technology with
>>little consideration for plot and character developement on a "mature"
>>level, I feel. And except for the titles I listed, I don't feel there's
>>much out there for someone my age (21 almost 22) who's looking for a
>>viable, intelligent art form.
>
> That's too bad. And I feel that you're missing out on a huge variety of
> anime because of it. So very little anime falls within your criteria for
> "mature" that you will miss a good 90% of the best anime that has been
> made, for one reason or another, be it the occasional nudity, unrealistic
> violence, character development over plot development(or vice-versa), etc.
See....it's not "occasional" nudity I have a problem with. My
beef stemms from the fact that a good 90% of the nudity and violence in
Anime is pointless. It just DOSEN'T have to be there. There's no reason
for it other than as a "selling point" for the audience. I find that
rather pandering and I don't enjoy being pandered to. And to claim that
"it's essential to see Shayla's reaction to being viewed naked by another
male to find out about her inner character", is pure BS. There are SO
MANY other ways to find out about a character than to watch her fume over
being caught naked (repeatedly). The intent is obvious; you can dress it
up however you like.
I can't really think of much anime that has used nudity, and
violence to enhance the story. Wings of Honneamise comes to mind. Maybe
Macross Plus, Area 88, certainly Battle Angel, maybe Key.
But that's okay. Becasue, you know what, very few MOVIES can
portray sex and violence as an enhancing element of the story.
"Schindler's List", "Midnight Cowboy", "The Unforgiven", etc. But I still
demand that kind of maturity from my movies......why can't I expect the same
thing from Anime?
>> There's a gulf of difference in maturity between, say, "Akira"
>>and "Patlabor 2". Akira is a good movie.....but Patlabor 2 is a FILM. I
>>want more films in my Anime.
>
> I disagree. The animation is more surreal, but Akira raises a lot more
> issues than Patlabor 2 does. That makes Akira a more mature anime than
> Patlabor 2 in my book.
See....you're falling into the trap. Just because Akira raises
more issues dosen't make it more "mature" at all. The script for Akira is
a rather, choppy, condensed, confusing piece of writing. It's something
only really "hard-core" sci-fi freaks can appreciate while the general
public has a tougher time with it (same can be said about GiTS). This is
what makes it a "good movie".
While the script for Patlabor 2 flows cogently and coherently.
Anyone off the street who is mildly educated can follow it and appreciate
the messages it tackles. This is what makes it a "good film." It might be
the sheer fact that Patlabor 2 DOSEN'T try to tackle as manny issues,
inherently, that makes it a much better, more mature title than Akira.
It's because of those faults in the script that makes Akira seem far less
professional and mature, when compared to Patlabor 2.
> I find it a bit ironic that you claim to consider Evangelion a "mature"
> anime yet a healthy chunk of it is devoted to the relationship between
> Shinji, Rei, and Asuka, three 14 year-olds. I don't disagree that Eva is
> a mature anime, though. It's mature and excellent, possibly the best
> anime I have ever seen.
Yeah....I've been TRYING to put that behind me. Why the hell do
they have to be, like, pre-schoolers? When I was 14 I was an obnoxious,
self-absorbed idiot, and so was everyone else my age. I certainly didn't
behave like they did. Why couldn't they just be 21, or 27, or better yet,
ageless? Let the audience come up with how old they think the characters
are. That would certainly make for more interesting characters. Then
there's a little mystery to them. Is it so important that Shinji, Rei and
Asuka be entering, what, 10th grade? It really knocks the character's
believability down a notch.
Still, though, other than that, you're right - Evangelion is the
best title to come out in a LONG time.
---Dmambu
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <1997May16.225020.162246@forest>, dma...@forest.drew.edu writes:
> In article <5lh08t$k...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
>> In article <1997May15.145345.162149@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
> See....it's not "occasional" nudity I have a problem with. My
> beef stemms from the fact that a good 90% of the nudity and violence in
> Anime is pointless. It just DOSEN'T have to be there. There's no reason
> for it other than as a "selling point" for the audience.
I'd like to ammend that by saying I'm not trying to do away with ALL
depictions of sex and violence of any kind. I have no problem with the PG
stuff since it's all pretty innocuous, anyway, and therefore I doubt it's
the stuff that people try and hook fans with. I'm addressing the good 'ol
fashoned "Fist of the Northstar" kinda stuff. ^-^
Sorry if that wasn't made clear in my origional posts.
---Dmambu
Angst-sensei
In article <5lfos8$p...@lace.colorado.edu>,
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD <ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>
>True enough. Sorry about the rant. I'll be a lot more logical, rational,
>etc. in this post.
@creak as the Old Man prepares to deliver a diatribe. Sorry if this
seems antagonistic, Brian, but I just plain can't agree with your
reasoning.
8< snip >8
>I take it you disagree that Tenchi has intelligent plot development.
>Well, that's certainly your right.
Tenchi's *primary focus* is not intelligent plot development. The
primary focus is harem fantasy fluff. Admittedly, the Tenchi anime
takes some clever turns--such as Tenchi's grandfather's true identity--
but the overall plot is laden with typical romantic angst, bad
technobabble (listen to Washuu sometime--*really* listen), and
situational comedy. Tenchi Muyou! is a sitcom with SF trappings.
>> Maybe. I haven't seen it so I didn't comment on it. But I'm
>>getting really *&^%$ing tired off all these "Romance-comedies" taking
>>place with highschoolers. Adults fall in love too, you know. I'd like
>>something _I_ can identify with. I stopped caring about highschool love
>>in, like, highschool.
Here's where I'll take issue with Dmambu--most of the market for the
more "popular" anime is the junior high and high school crowd. There's
also the older fans who enjoy the vicarious teenage romantic experience.
Audience determines the age of the characters.
Since there's a common claim that an anime for every possible kind of
subject matter exists in Japan, there probably are adult romances. We
just never see them because they don't sell. Witness the movie OMOIDE
PORO PORO (Conty's favorite film, last I checked ^_^), a film quite
unlikely to experience commercial success in the U.S.
>Now, having said all that, I'll give you my criteria for what makes an
>anime mature: Any anime is considered mature if it adresses and comments
>on social, political, cultural, technical, scientific, personal,
>religious, etc. issues. Are all those anime above mature, by this
>definition? Absolutely. But so are a lot of other anime you seem to be
>discounting. I'll go into that below.
I'll agree with your point but not your logic. You cite multiple
examples of anime in which the "mature themes" you attempt to extract do
not parse with the rest of the anime as context. Hell, even if a mature
theme is in context with the rest of the anime, that doesn't necessarily
make the anime mature as well. Look at Star Trek: many weeks, the
writers develop a fairly inane plot around a simple moral, creating a
space fable where the point is driven home by a sledgehammer. In fact,
Deep Space Nine regularly deals with the mature themes of corporate
business, contract law, and the use and abuse of capitalism, but I would
hardly consider most Ferengi-driven stories to be "mature".
>I feel that, at some level, it is very different. If it wasn't, at some
>fundamental level, then Ghost in the Shell, Bubblegum Crisis and AD
>Police, and Sohryuden-Legend of the Dragon Kings would never have been
>created in the first place - they're generally too politically or socially
>charged to be created in the US. That doesn't mean that animation gets
>more respect in Japan from non-viewers than it does here, only that there
>has to be some fundamental difference which promotes the creation of
>excellent and adult animation in Japan that doesn't exist in the US.
Bubblegum Crisis, and by extension, AD Police, are hardly "politically
or socially charged". They're fairly standard action fare with a
cyberpunk setting. If you read too much depth into an anime just
because of its setting, you cheapen the work of writers who create
stories which rise above their genre.
>My apologies. I will refrain in the future from assuming that everyone
>has seen some Ranma.
Haven't they? ^_^
>Perhaps, but I was trying to draw a comparison. A lot of anime is like
>Disney in that it has several levels, and that it can be watched on any or
>all of those levels. I'll give a lot of examples of how the anime you
>don't feel are mature, when watched a little deeper, have a lot of social,
>political, etc. commentary.
And there's such a thing as reading way too much into a story. I often
wonder if some of the "great American novels" we study in English
classes don't have half the symbolism some hack professors would like us
to believe.
I once wrote a simple horror story about giant spiders, which when I
thought about it one day, I saw could be interpreted as a vague allegory
to the homeless problem. Which is pure bullshit, because that's not
what I was writing about--I was writing about giant spiders.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
>All those above reasons are why I feel those various anime qualify as
>mature and adult. I hope that clarifies my position some.
I started to write some specific refutations of why you think certain
anime are mature, but realized I'm too tired to get into a knock-down
drag-out post right now. Suffice it to say, you are reading *way* too
much into these shows. MAISON IKKOKU is an indictment "of the system
that would produce a ronin in the first place"? MI is not about social
commentary. If it were, it would probably handle it in a much LESS
subtle fashion.
--Angst-sensei
(You can find symbolism on every street corner if you look hard enough.)
--
/-\ ** Jeff Williamson *** Lightfall Integrated Media *** Chicago, IL ** /-\
|A| doca...@mcs.com ^_^ Anime Central Home Page: http://www.acen.org/ |9|
|C| *==> "In every revolution, there is one man with a vision." <==* |8|
\-/ * =If you're Friends with Key, well, then, you're friends with me= * \-/
Angst-sensei
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.97051...@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Arnold Kim <arn...@umich.edu> wrote:
>
>[...] A lot of animation marketed here as
>'adult' is done in a way that just screams "This is mature animation.
>Therefore it's dark, violent, and loaded with sex and dirty words!".
It's a holdover from the comic market. SCIMIDAR is not my idea of a
"mature" comic book. OMAHA THE CAT DANCER, or for a title without
graphic sex, STRANGERS IN PARADISE, *those* are mature titles.
>What people fail to understand is that mature animation is really one that
>doesn't pander to the kiddies. Sure, it can be appreciated by them on one
>level, but also to the adults on that same level as well as possibly a
>higher one. Take Macross for exxample. While kids can appreciate the
>action and the "cool robots", adults can appreciate the strength of the
>character relationships as well as the action and visuals. Ranma is
>another example. Kids enjoy the wacky comedy involved, while adults can
>enjoy both that and the wonderful and extremely appealing characters and
>the inherent emotion underlying many of the storylines.
There are differing definitions of maturity at work. By your examples
above, just because I'm an adult and get more out of it than a kid
would, ANIMANIACS is a mature cartoon. RANMA 1/2 is still merely
romantic comedy fluff, often focusing more on the comedy, but
occasionally focusing on the romance. I find it hard to consider it
mature as a title when character development is largely limited to Akane
and Ranma *almost* kissing and thus "sharing a moment". (Sorry, I just
got back from CHASING AMY. Again. ^_^) Most Ranma fanfics do a lot
more character development that Takahashi ever did.
>Maturity in anime is something that can be appreciated on levels much
>higher than the visual stimulants that are usually expected of mature
>animation (i.e. sex/nudity, violence/gore, foul language). I just hope
>the animation industry realises this.
Let's see, I think we have three definitions of "mature":
Mature: Adult-oriented. May contain sex, violence, nudity, swearing.
Mature: Appealing to a wider audience. Contains lowest common
denominator elements (slapstick, situational comedy) while also
containing romance or other elements for an older crowd.
Mature: Dealing directly with controversial subjects without pandering
to the lowest common denominator.
I don't like the word "controversial" in the last sentence, but I don't
see that I can avoid it.
>Not that I'm slamming "immature" anime; I like it a lot. I appreciate
>silliness. Hell, 3 of my favorite animes (Ranma, UY, Slayers) can be
>_extremely_ silly at times, and I like it that way.
You should check out KODOMO NO OMOCHA (Child's Toy) and MAHO TSUKAI TAI
(I Want to Be a Witch). Both can get *really* silly, and are so funny I
nearly pissed myself watching them.
--Angst-sensei
(I must sleep now.)
Ru Igarashi
dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>In article <5lfos8$p...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
>> Now, having said all that, I'll give you my criteria for what makes an
>> anime mature: Any anime is considered mature if it adresses and comments
>> on social, political, cultural, technical, scientific, personal,
>> religious, etc. issues.
>
> Not necessarily at all. Just because something tackles a
>"weighty" issue dosen't make it any more mature than something that
>dosen't. In fact, it makes the show far MORE likely to be a poor attempt
>at social critique whereas a show that has little pretention as possible
>inherent in the script can avoid the cliches of political, social, etc.
>commentary.
I agree. The mere presence of that kind of commentary is not
sufficient for qualification as mature. Later on Dmambu remarks
on cliches and it certainly is easy for any show that contains
any of the above commentary to be cliched about it. Furthermore,
there are very few subjects (issues, ideas, etc) that can't be
dealt with maturely, be it romantic indecision or nose picking.
It's really not the "What" in a show, but the "How" that
determines if it is mature. Some ways a show can be considered
mature are: if it deals in depth with a subject's many possible
ramifications or consequences personally on the viewer rather
than just making a viewer sympathetic/unsympathetic; if it
opens a door into a certain type of personality for the viewer
to study; if the show presents a view or many views **for the
assessment of the viewer** rather than just stating a view.
> I'm more concerned, now, with believeable characters (read:
>non-cliched characters), and believable plots (read: yeah...you get the
>point). And this, I feel, is a switch from a more juvenile method of
>stroytelling to one that is more mature. Anime is, after all, the telling
>of a story. And you can have the coolest stuff in it, visually, but if
>the story sucks, then, well, I'm not going to like the Anime.
Right, the "How" not the "What".
>And from the examples given it seems that you like
>what most people would consider the "lighter fare" of Anime (no, I haven't
>asked all of them, but if I did, I'm sure they'd agree based on previous
>converations both on and off the net) while I just don't.
As much as I like some of those titles, I agree, most of them
are what I consider "light fare", mostly for the reasons Dmambu
states further below.
> But trying to pass off a title as
>being "deep" when, really, such depth is not there....well, looks bad,
>frankly. I mean, to claim that Blue Seed is mature because it deals with
>"predestination, government censorship AND being a 'satire' (a term that
>gets used FAR too often to rationalize mediocre shows) of hentai " is
>pushing it. Similarly, claiming Tenchi's T&A "Serves a purpose to show us
>about the personalities of Ryoko, et all." and therefore is necessary, is
>really giving glorified fan-service too much credit. I can think of a
>zillion other ways to elucidate the inner-personality of a character rather
>than have her bare-ass naked in front of everyone. That nudity isn't
>there for the characters - it's there for YOU. :)
> And the list goes on - Gunsmith Cats about "corruption and the
>importance of freedom"....? El-Hazzard tackleing issues of "Alcoholism
>and Drug abuse, social mores, and the actions of everyday people having
>extrordinary consequences"....?
Most of these titles USE those concepts to further the storyline,
not to address them. Most of these are superificial treatments and
thus can't be considered mature fare for it. And in most of these
cases the main concern is to be entertaining RATHER than ellaborate
on those concepts intimately at the personal level of the viewer.
ru
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5ljdpl$c...@tribune.usask.ca>,
Ru Igarashi <r...@skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
>I had to scratch my brainpan on this one, too. Most of the
>violence was with Labor battles. I have to assume this is
>what he was refering to. Considering that the premise of
>labors being viable has to be believed first, I don't really
>see the violence of this sort being "very unrealistic".
Good point. I have a lot of other problems with the Patlabor movies, but
I really try hard not to comment on anime I've not seen at least twice,
and I've only seen Patlabor once.
Brian
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5ljj7e$c0c$1...@Mercury.mcs.net>,
At least. Probably more.
>Mature: Adult-oriented. May contain sex, violence, nudity, swearing.
>
>Mature: Appealing to a wider audience. Contains lowest common
> denominator elements (slapstick, situational comedy) while also
> containing romance or other elements for an older crowd.
I would change that to say "May contain lowest common denominator..." Of
course, lowest common denominator is a subjective measurement.
>Mature: Dealing directly with controversial subjects without pandering
> to the lowest common denominator.
This definition has never been in contention, really. My contention has
been that some of the anime from definition #2 also qualifies as being as
mature as anime in #3.
>I don't like the word "controversial" in the last sentence, but I don't
>see that I can avoid it.
I see the problem as this - not all mature anime need to discuss
controversial topics, only discuss topics intelligently and make a
definate point about them(IMO).
Brian
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5lji1b$b5d$1...@Mercury.mcs.net>,
Angst-sensei <doca...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>@creak as the Old Man prepares to deliver a diatribe. Sorry if this
>seems antagonistic, Brian, but I just plain can't agree with your
>reasoning.
Fair enough. As to being antagonistic, that's not a problem. I like to
think I have enough of an open mind to accept when I might be wrong, or to
admit when I am.
>Tenchi's *primary focus* is not intelligent plot development. The
>primary focus is harem fantasy fluff. Admittedly, the Tenchi anime
>takes some clever turns--such as Tenchi's grandfather's true identity--
>but the overall plot is laden with typical romantic angst, bad
>technobabble (listen to Washuu sometime--*really* listen), and
>situational comedy. Tenchi Muyou! is a sitcom with SF trappings.
Actually, I have listened to Washu some, but I also happen to enjoy
technobabble. And I feel that a lot of what I've heard from Washu
actually explains what she's doing and what's going on in the anime. But
I'll watch Tenchi next time with a little more critical eye and see.
I do feel that you are probably right that the primary focus isn't
necessarily on plot development, at least not in the same sense that an
anime like Macross Plus is. However, any anime that ties together as well
as I feel Tenchi does, across both OVA series, with added complexities to
Tenchi's relationships, Washu's and Yosho's pasts, the intracicies of the
Jurai royal family, and similar development, deserves, as far as I'm
concerned, to be given a lot more credit than just calling it a fluffy
harem anime. That's doing it a great disservice. And to say that just
because of the harem, Tenchi Muyo! doesn't qualify as mature, well, I
simply don't agree.
>>Now, having said all that, I'll give you my criteria for what makes an
>>anime mature: Any anime is considered mature if it adresses and comments
>>on social, political, cultural, technical, scientific, personal,
>>religious, etc. issues. Are all those anime above mature, by this
>>definition? Absolutely. But so are a lot of other anime you seem to be
>>discounting. I'll go into that below.
>
>I'll agree with your point but not your logic. You cite multiple
>examples of anime in which the "mature themes" you attempt to extract do
>not parse with the rest of the anime as context.
Some of them you could very well be right. Gunsmith Cats, for example.
but some of the anime I used as examples(Aa! Megami-sama, Maison Ikkoku,
Blue Seed), those mature themes are the purpose of the anime, at least as
far as I've been able to determine.
> Hell, even if a mature
>theme is in context with the rest of the anime, that doesn't necessarily
>make the anime mature as well. Look at Star Trek: many weeks, the
>writers develop a fairly inane plot around a simple moral, creating a
>space fable where the point is driven home by a sledgehammer. In fact,
>Deep Space Nine regularly deals with the mature themes of corporate
>business, contract law, and the use and abuse of capitalism, but I would
>hardly consider most Ferengi-driven stories to be "mature".
You know, it's rather funny - I've always found Star Trek to be one of the
most mature shows ever to be broadcast on TV, and I generally don't feel
the plots are innane. My opinions on the maturity of Star Trek could very
easily be a large part of why I feel a large number of anime are mature -
there are a lot of striking similarities.
>Bubblegum Crisis, and by extension, AD Police, are hardly "politically
>or socially charged". They're fairly standard action fare with a
>cyberpunk setting. If you read too much depth into an anime just
>because of its setting, you cheapen the work of writers who create
>stories which rise above their genre.
I feel that half the reason for Bubblegum to exist is the commentary it
makes on the power of corporations, and AD Police exists expressly for
asking the question "What does it mean to be human, and at what point do
you stop being human?" Bubblegum, especially Born to Kill and Red Eyes,
tackles those issues as well.
Sorry, but in my opinion, Bubblegum and AD Police are two of the best and
most mature anime I have ever seen.
>And there's such a thing as reading way too much into a story. I often
>wonder if some of the "great American novels" we study in English
>classes don't have half the symbolism some hack professors would like us
>to believe.
And it's very possible that I read too much into a given anime. I've been
known to do it with a lot of other things, so I could very easily be doing
it now. In fact, I suspect that I am doing it with some of the anime I
listed. But not all of them.
>I once wrote a simple horror story about giant spiders, which when I
>thought about it one day, I saw could be interpreted as a vague allegory
>to the homeless problem. Which is pure bullshit, because that's not
>what I was writing about--I was writing about giant spiders.
Of course, some college history professor could use your story as an
allegory on the homeless problem.... :)
>"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
True. But I'd rather be accused of reading too much meaning into any
story, be it anime, novel, manga, movie, or TV series, than miss meanings
that are there.
There's two sides to this coin - sometimes people see things in a story
that just aren't there, but sometimes people miss things that are. I may
be seeing meanings in some of the anime I love that just aren't there, but
can anyone else be totally sure that you're not missing something that is?
Rhetorical question.
>Suffice it to say, you are reading *way* too
>much into these shows. MAISON IKKOKU is an indictment "of the system
>that would produce a ronin in the first place"? MI is not about social
>commentary. If it were, it would probably handle it in a much LESS
>subtle fashion.
I'm of a slightly different opinion on that for a couple of reasons. One,
most of the most mature stories(not just anime) don't hit you over the
head with the 2x4 of meaning, ie most of the meanings I've found in
stories have been subtle. Two, I didn't find the inditment of the
Japanese school system to be rather subtle, but blatant.
Brian
Arnold Kim
On 17 May 1997, ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD wrote:
> >What people fail to understand is that mature animation is really one that
> >doesn't pander to the kiddies. Sure, it can be appreciated by them on one
> >level, but also to the adults on that same level as well as possibly a
> >higher one. Take Macross for exxample. While kids can appreciate the
> >action and the "cool robots", adults can appreciate the strength of the
> >character relationships as well as the action and visuals. Ranma is
> >another example. Kids enjoy the wacky comedy involved, while adults can
> >enjoy both that and the wonderful and extremely appealing characters and
> >the inherent emotion underlying many of the storylines.
>
> not been able to articulate particularly well - that a lot of what Dmambu
> seems to be criticizing falls into the realm where it's intended for
> adults, but where kids might still get something out of it. I feel that a
> lot of my list(another response earlier) qualifies in that regard. I'll
> go into that in another post.
Exactly. There are so many examples of this- Sailor Moon, Macross, Ranma,
and more. Perceft illustration of this is my own exerience of Macross:Do
You Remember Love? I first saw it in '85 or '86 when I was 7 or 8, from
a friend of the family who was a big anime/mecha fan. My thoughts then:
"Wow! This is great! Look at those cool robots!It's so violent! That's
cool!" My reaction now: Wow! This is great! Look at the great character
intraction and plot line! It's so absorbing! That's cool! Plus the robots
and action is fantastic!"
>
> >Maturity in anime is something that can be appreciated on levels much
> >higher than the visual stimulants that are usually expected of mature
> >animation (i.e. sex/nudity, violence/gore, foul language). I just hope
> >the animation industry realises this.
>
> I think it does, although I don't think that the viewers will necessarily
> agree on what anime qualifies as mature, as this entire discussion
> indicates. :)
Well yeah, I guess so.
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <1997May16.225020.162246@forest>, <dma...@forest.drew.edu> wrote:
> See....it's not "occasional" nudity I have a problem with. My
>beef stemms from the fact that a good 90% of the nudity and violence in
>Anime is pointless. It just DOSEN'T have to be there. There's no reason
>for it other than as a "selling point" for the audience. I find that
>rather pandering and I don't enjoy being pandered to. And to claim that
>"it's essential to see Shayla's reaction to being viewed naked by another
>male to find out about her inner character", is pure BS. There are SO
>MANY other ways to find out about a character than to watch her fume over
>being caught naked (repeatedly). The intent is obvious; you can dress it
>up however you like.
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps the nudity doesn't have to be there. You
find that it detracts from the story, I don't. You feel that it makes
El-Hazard immature, I don't. Fair enough.
> I can't really think of much anime that has used nudity, and
>violence to enhance the story. Wings of Honneamise comes to mind. Maybe
>Macross Plus, Area 88, certainly Battle Angel, maybe Key.
Macross Plus had nudity? Where? It had tenticles and gratuitious
chest(albiet clothed) shots. Doesn't that make you feel you're being
pandered to? I feel those shots in Macross Plus pander a hell of a lot
more than frontal nudity at a hot spring in Tenchi or El-Hazard. And I
feel that Macross Plus is an excellent anime, up in the top ten I've seen
so far. And the nudity of Battle Angel, IIRC, is when the doctor's friend
is essentially prostituting herself to the factor manager on his desk.
That enhances the story? I can see the arguments as to how it might, but
I don't buy them. After all, it doesn't need to be there for you to learn
that the character is willing to do anything.
> But that's okay. Becasue, you know what, very few MOVIES can
>portray sex and violence as an enhancing element of the story.
>"Schindler's List", "Midnight Cowboy", "The Unforgiven", etc. But I still
>demand that kind of maturity from my movies......why can't I expect the same
>thing from Anime?
You have every right to demand maturity from you anime. What you don't
have a right to do is to tell me that only your definition of maturity is
the right one.
You see, my biggest problem I seem to be having with the points you're
making is that you seem to be saying that everything you like and you
define as mature is good, everything else is garbage and not worth the
time and money required to draw it.
> See....you're falling into the trap. Just because Akira raises
>more issues dosen't make it more "mature" at all. The script for Akira is
>a rather, choppy, condensed, confusing piece of writing. It's something
>only really "hard-core" sci-fi freaks can appreciate while the general
>public has a tougher time with it (same can be said about GiTS). This is
>what makes it a "good movie".
Akira tackles more issues, but I feel it tackles them more subtlely than
Patlabor 2 tackle's its one or two issues. That's what makes Akira
better.
> While the script for Patlabor 2 flows cogently and coherently.
Only if you can accept the following: a terrorist has the ability to
totally destroy decades of peaceful symbiosis between Japan and the US.
Patlabor 2 is a good movie, but it's also a blatent morality play. The
best films are those which tell the same story with the same meanings, but
which don't beat you over the head with it. I'll use a couple of
examples from real movies - The Deer Hunter and Full Metal Jacket are both
excellent movies, and they have a lot of the same things to say about the
Vietnam War. Full Metal Jacket beats you upside the head with it's
messages, The Deer Hunter is subtle. Which is a better film? The Deer
Hunter.
>Anyone off the street who is mildly educated can follow it and appreciate
>the messages it tackles. This is what makes it a "good film." It might be
>the sheer fact that Patlabor 2 DOSEN'T try to tackle as manny issues,
>inherently, that makes it a much better, more mature title than Akira.
>It's because of those faults in the script that makes Akira seem far less
>professional and mature, when compared to Patlabor 2.
It's so interesting - we're both using "better" as if it were an objective
measurement. We're both wrong. You like Patlabor 2 better than Akira,
and you've explained why. I think I understand you're reasons, even if I
don't agree. Hopefully I've been clear enough in my reasoning that you
understand why I feel differently, even though you don't agree.
> Yeah....I've been TRYING to put that behind me. Why the hell do
>they have to be, like, pre-schoolers? When I was 14 I was an obnoxious,
>self-absorbed idiot, and so was everyone else my age. I certainly didn't
>behave like they did. Why couldn't they just be 21, or 27, or better yet,
>ageless? Let the audience come up with how old they think the characters
>are. That would certainly make for more interesting characters. Then
>there's a little mystery to them. Is it so important that Shinji, Rei and
>Asuka be entering, what, 10th grade? It really knocks the character's
>believability down a notch.
Ageless? How would you make a character ageless? Just a curious
question, not a criticism.
Unfortunately, when I was 14, I _was_ Shinji, so I relate really well to
him. Personally, I think that making the saviors of the planet 14, asked
to save humanity all the while going through puberty and the
self-discovery that entails adds a lot of depth to the series, and I'm
glad they did it.
Brian
PsychoKick
In article <1997May16.225020.162246@forest>, dma...@forest.drew.edu says...
[snip]
> Yeah....I've been TRYING to put that behind me. Why the hell do
>they have to be, like, pre-schoolers? When I was 14 I was an obnoxious,
>self-absorbed idiot, and so was everyone else my age. I certainly didn't
>behave like they did. Why couldn't they just be 21, or 27, or better yet,
>ageless? Let the audience come up with how old they think the characters
>are. That would certainly make for more interesting characters. Then
>there's a little mystery to them. Is it so important that Shinji, Rei and
>Asuka be entering, what, 10th grade? It really knocks the character's
>believability down a notch.
Well, not for me. I know I certainly thought & behaved a lot like
Shinji did when I was in junior high school, sans the giant robot.
And actually, Shinji is pretty much a self-absorbed idiot, who's way
too insecure to be obnoxious.
> Still, though, other than that, you're right - Evangelion is the
>best title to come out in a LONG time.
Hear hear!
--
*********PsychoKick********** "Creativity will not come out
**Mad Animator in Training*** of happy lives, but from
*http://www.panix.com/~wyoon* people who become outcasts"
***************************** -Toshio Okada
Angst-sensei
*ding* Round 2...
In article <5lktj7$4...@lace.colorado.edu>,
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD <ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>In article <5lji1b$b5d$1...@Mercury.mcs.net>,
>Angst-sensei <doca...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>
>>Tenchi's *primary focus* is not intelligent plot development. The
>>primary focus is harem fantasy fluff. Admittedly, the Tenchi anime
>>takes some clever turns--such as Tenchi's grandfather's true identity--
>>but the overall plot is laden with typical romantic angst, bad
>>technobabble (listen to Washuu sometime--*really* listen), and
>>situational comedy. Tenchi Muyou! is a sitcom with SF trappings.
>
>I do feel that you are probably right that the primary focus isn't
>necessarily on plot development, at least not in the same sense that an
>anime like Macross Plus is.
Macross Plus is a lot like the original Macross series. It's a love
story--or more accurately, a story about interpersonal relationships--
with a science fiction backdrop. Tenchi Muyou!, as I stated above, is
a sitcom with a science fiction backdrop. The primary focus of the
Tenchi stories are comedy--situational, slapstick comedy. Occasionally,
the character development rises above the material.
>However, any anime that ties together as well as I feel Tenchi
>does, across both OVA series, with added complexities to Tenchi's
>relationships, Washu's and Yosho's pasts, the intracicies of the Jurai
>royal family, and similar development, deserves, as far as I'm concerned,
>to be given a lot more credit than just calling it a fluffy harem anime.
>That's doing it a great disservice. And to say that just because of the
>harem, Tenchi Muyo! doesn't qualify as mature, well, I simply don't agree.
*Some* of the Tenchi episodes rise above the core of the series. Not
many, and certainly not all. In fact, I'll make a blanket statement and
say that most anime which is normally "fluff" will occasionally outshine
its roots and deliver a potentially, yes, *mature* episode or theme
which is contrary to type.
Even so, just because a series delivers an occasional genre-buster, you
can't label that entire series "mature". The overwhelming bulk of Tenchi
is comedy, and not particularly mature comedy. If something like
SPIDER-MAN (escapist action-adventure comic book literature)
occasionally does a story on something like drug abuse, does that make
the entire run of the series mature? No! Due to the episodic nature of
the medium, it's easy to occasionally go against the general grain of a
series, but that does not change the fundamental nature of that series.
>Some of them you could very well be right. Gunsmith Cats, for example.
>but some of the anime I used as examples(Aa! Megami-sama, Maison Ikkoku,
>Blue Seed), those mature themes are the purpose of the anime, at least as
>far as I've been able to determine.
I refrained from commenting on Blue Seed because I've only seen the
first four episodes to date. Some of the stuff you mentioned elsewhere
sounds intriguing, and I look forward to seeing it. To contribute to
one of Dmambu's points from earlier in this thread, though, the panty
jokes and hentai humour in Blue Seed are gratuitous--if you took them
out, the major themes would still be there. Same with Evangelion--you
could take out Misato's self-proclaimed "service" shots and the basic
nature of the anime would be unchanged. That's the very definition of
"gratuitous".
>> Hell, even if a mature
>>theme is in context with the rest of the anime, that doesn't necessarily
>>make the anime mature as well. Look at Star Trek: many weeks, the
>>writers develop a fairly inane plot around a simple moral, creating a
>>space fable where the point is driven home by a sledgehammer. In fact,
>>Deep Space Nine regularly deals with the mature themes of corporate
>>business, contract law, and the use and abuse of capitalism, but I would
>>hardly consider most Ferengi-driven stories to be "mature".
>
>You know, it's rather funny - I've always found Star Trek to be one of the
>most mature shows ever to be broadcast on TV, and I generally don't feel
>the plots are innane. My opinions on the maturity of Star Trek could very
>easily be a large part of why I feel a large number of anime are mature -
>there are a lot of striking similarities.
I use a particular example from Star Trek to point out how far you seem
to be taking your "mature anime" argument--the Ferengi. In point of
fact, I find Star Trek as a whole to be uneven, with several gems (such
as Voyager's "Distant Origin", or DS9's "Children of Time") and several
pieces of utter crap (much of Voyager's first two-and-a-half seasons, or
TNG's simplistic first-season morality plays).
Star Trek--and by extension, anime--can be very mature, but again, Star
Trek is an escapist adventure show. Mature themes just plug into the
episodic nature of the individual shows.
>>Bubblegum Crisis, and by extension, AD Police, are hardly "politically
>>or socially charged". They're fairly standard action fare with a
>>cyberpunk setting. If you read too much depth into an anime just
>>because of its setting, you cheapen the work of writers who create
>>stories which rise above their genre.
>
>I feel that half the reason for Bubblegum to exist is the commentary it
>makes on the power of corporations, and AD Police exists expressly for
>asking the question "What does it mean to be human, and at what point do
>you stop being human?" Bubblegum, especially Born to Kill and Red Eyes,
>tackles those issues as well.
"Corporations are evil" is an inherent function of the cyberpunk genre,
of which BGC is a part. There's nothing that BGC in particular adds to
the moral implications of that argument which are a fundamental part of
its setting. At the core, BGC is an adventure show, using cute girls
and cool tech. There's no deep exploration of the corporate theme.
There's no substantial character development of the Knight Sabers. Adam
Warren did more to develop the Knight Sabers in four issues of Grand Mal
than was done in eight episodes of BGC.
Interesting, isn't it, that the best characters in BGC are secondary?
Red Eyes is a classic example.
AD Police does a little more with the "what makes a human" question, but
is subsumed by (you knew it was coming) GRATUITOUS violence, nudity, and
sexual situations--"The Man Who Bit His Tongue" was a MUCH better manga
story, mostly because there is not so much gratuitousness.
Armitage III does a little better by not being nearly so flagrant.
>Sorry, but in my opinion, Bubblegum and AD Police are two of the best and
>most mature anime I have ever seen.
I must respectfully disagree. While I find them entertaining, I cannot
in any way see them as some of the "most mature" anime I've seen.
>>I once wrote a simple horror story about giant spiders, which when I
>>thought about it one day, I saw could be interpreted as a vague allegory
>>to the homeless problem. Which is pure bullshit, because that's not
>>what I was writing about--I was writing about giant spiders.
>
>Of course, some college history professor could use your story as an
>allegory on the homeless problem.... :)
My point. I was extrapolating just what kind of crap theorists would
pull out of their ass when overinterpreting something which can be much
more simply explained. There's a reason Occam's Razor can be applied in
most cases.
Interesting debate...I'm not sure it will ever come to a resolution,
because at its heart, this argument is about individual tastes. I'll be
intrigued to hear your next comments, though.
--Angst-sensei
(Feeling older than he really is.)
C. Mitch Hagmaier
>> While the script for Patlabor 2 flows cogently and coherently.
>
>Only if you can accept the following: a terrorist has the ability to
>totally destroy decades of peaceful symbiosis between Japan and the US.
>
Phhbp. "Peaceful", maybe. Also very, very tense at times, and when
Patlabor 2 was being released, it looked as if the free-fall of world politics
after the fall of the USSR was going to wretch the two apart. Hell, Clancy
published _Debt of Honor_ around the same time. It isn't much of a
stretch as these things go.
>Patlabor 2 is a good movie, but it's also a blatent morality play. The
>best films are those which tell the same story with the same meanings, but
>which don't beat you over the head with it. I'll use a couple of
>examples from real movies - The Deer Hunter and Full Metal Jacket are both
>excellent movies, and they have a lot of the same things to say about the
>Vietnam War. Full Metal Jacket beats you upside the head with it's
>messages, The Deer Hunter is subtle. Which is a better film? The Deer
>Hunter.
>
In your opinion. I found _the Deer Hunter_ to be a turgid, fairly pointless
slog. _Full Metal Jacket_, on the other hand, is a prime example of a
good Kubrick movie - profane, snappy, kinetic and well-written. _The
Deer Hunter_ moved like a doped stage play.
The difference between _Akira_ and _Patlabor 2_ isn't entirely within this
issue of pacing, but there's something to the argument. _Akira_'s one
scripting virtue is it's pace. It doesn't feel as talky as _Pat2_ because
the expository scenes are well-balanced with the active scenes. Of
course, you then get the problem that the expository scenes are, by and
large, bunk. Neither of the Patlabor movies are exactly fast-paced.
The first movie is actually better in this regard than the second.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5lmr83$aq3$1...@pigpen.csrlink.net>,
C. Mitch Hagmaier <kyo...@csrlink.net> wrote:
>Phhbp. "Peaceful", maybe. Also very, very tense at times, and when
>Patlabor 2 was being released, it looked as if the free-fall of world politics
>after the fall of the USSR was going to wretch the two apart. Hell, Clancy
>published _Debt of Honor_ around the same time. It isn't much of a
>stretch as these things go.
I have to disagree. It requires too much of a stretch for me to handle.
I can suspend my disbelief of the labor concept without too much
difficulty, for the sake of the movie. I can accept the play off the
tension between the US and Japan. I can't accept that a simple terrrorist
would have the ability to cause near civil and international war. As
excellent as the animation and visuals are, that premise just doesn't work
for me.
However, I will say that I've heard from several Japanese sources that
Japan has been subtly preparing for the next major war it will have to
fight - vs. the US.
>In your opinion. I found _the Deer Hunter_ to be a turgid, fairly pointless
>slog. _Full Metal Jacket_, on the other hand, is a prime example of a
>good Kubrick movie - profane, snappy, kinetic and well-written. _The
>Deer Hunter_ moved like a doped stage play.
I can watch Full Metal Jacket, or Platoon, repeatedly and sequentially
without being as emotionally affected as a single watching of The Deer
Hunter will get me, and I don't mean disgust at the quality of the movie.
But this is a difference of personal taste, so I'll hope my point was at
least understood somewhat.
>The difference between _Akira_ and _Patlabor 2_ isn't entirely within this
>issue of pacing, but there's something to the argument. _Akira_'s one
>scripting virtue is it's pace. It doesn't feel as talky as _Pat2_ because
>the expository scenes are well-balanced with the active scenes. Of
>course, you then get the problem that the expository scenes are, by and
>large, bunk. Neither of the Patlabor movies are exactly fast-paced.
>The first movie is actually better in this regard than the second.
The first movie is better paced, but it's fluffier than the second at the
same time. Patlabor 1 has less to tell the viewer than Patlabor 2, IMO.
But again, we're into pure anime taste issues again, and while I'm willing
to defend Akira as being a hell of a lot better than Patlabor2, my doing
so will probably not accomplish a whole hell of a lot at this point. I'll
just end by saying that my opinion is that Akira has a better story and
than Patlabor, but that I understand you don't agree. That's fine by me.
Brian
Angst-sensei
In article <5lkrd7$2...@lace.colorado.edu>,
>Angst-sensei <doca...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>>
>>Let's see, I think we have three definitions of "mature":
>
>At least. Probably more.
Well, I meant three in the context of the article I was replying to...
>>Mature: Adult-oriented. May contain sex, violence, nudity, swearing.
>>
>>Mature: Appealing to a wider audience. Contains lowest common
>> denominator elements (slapstick, situational comedy) while also
>> containing romance or other elements for an older crowd.
>
>I would change that to say "May contain lowest common denominator..." Of
>course, lowest common denominator is a subjective measurement.
Yah. How about "contains non-mature elements"?
>>Mature: Dealing directly with controversial subjects without pandering
>> to the lowest common denominator.
>
>This definition has never been in contention, really. My contention has
>been that some of the anime from definition #2 also qualifies as being as
>mature as anime in #3.
Now, where my quibble is with your terms, is that you consider anime
which is *the majority of the time* non-mature to be mature simply
because some small percentage of the time mature topics are presented
(even if the topics aren't intelligently discussed, but instead hung out
like laundry on a clothesline; just another part of the background
chatter--see below).
TENCHI is not a mature anime. Occasionally (I would say infrequently)
it may act mature, but the bulk of the story is not.
>>I don't like the word "controversial" in the last sentence, but I don't
>>see that I can avoid it.
>
>I see the problem as this - not all mature anime need to discuss
>controversial topics, only discuss topics intelligently and make a
>definate point about them(IMO).
In many of your examples, the mature topics you mentioned are handled in
a straightforward, pedestrian manner. It's a rare occurrence to see
these "mature" topics actually discussed as opposed to merely presented.
And yes, there's a big difference in maturity between the two--when you
*present* a mature topic, it becomes solely a piece of the narrative,
but when that topic is *discussed*, it *actively* opens avenues of
debate. Instead of easy answers or clear-cut decisions on which side to
take, the characters have to support the reasoning behind their actions.
In some cases, no clear decision is made, and the "solution" to an issue,
or what position to take on a topic is left as an exercise to the viewer.
This is why I believe PATLABOR 2 is a very mature, thought-provoking
anime. Once you can suspend your disbelief enough to accept that the
"little war" is the act of, in your words, a "simple terrorist" (and to
further prove my point--the cause of the war is simply part of the
narrative, not something which undermines the story's maturity), the
crux of the debate is this: What is the continuing role of the United
States in the development and governing of Japan? Interestingly enough,
some of PATLABOR 2 comes down harsh *against* Japan, but the decisions
are ultimately not clear-cut.
Now, all of that being said, I still enjoy a lot of non-mature anime,
but not because they occasionally present mature topics. I enjoy them
*because*, for the most part, they are funny, or angstful (cf. MARMALADE
BOY, et al.), or action-packed, etc. I enjoy escapist fiction. I also
enjoy mature fiction. But there's a large difference between the two.
--Angst-sensei
(Who will probably reply to Brian's longer post tomorrow. I'm tired.)
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <5lm3a6$et3$1...@Mercury.mcs.net>,
Angst-sensei <doca...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>>I do feel that you are probably right that the primary focus isn't
>>necessarily on plot development, at least not in the same sense that an
>>anime like Macross Plus is.
>
>Macross Plus is a lot like the original Macross series. It's a love
>story--or more accurately, a story about interpersonal relationships--
>with a science fiction backdrop.
Unfortunately, I've only ever seen the Robotech version of Macross, and
while I love it, I have to take your word on it. However, even though
Robotech is, from what I've heard, a mere shadow of Macross, I think I'd
agree with you that it's emphasis is on interpersonal relationships.
> Tenchi Muyou!, as I stated above, is
>a sitcom with a science fiction backdrop. The primary focus of the
>Tenchi stories are comedy--situational, slapstick comedy. Occasionally,
>the character development rises above the material.
I have to disagree, because I don't feel that a comedy sitcom is by nature
immature, and because if the character's don't develop much, the comedy
stops being funny and the sitcom fails. I suspect that a lot of Tenchi
viewers would say that the comedy isn't funny and the sitcom has failed,
partly due to the failure of the character's to grow. But I disagree,
mostly because I see quite a bit of character development in the majority
of characters. I'll admit, though, that my definition of character
development may be significantly looser than others. And I'll also say
that the most character development occurs in Washu(IMHO), who is tied
with Sasami as my favorite character from Tenchi, which probably has some
rather significant bearing on my opinions.
>*Some* of the Tenchi episodes rise above the core of the series. Not
>many, and certainly not all. In fact, I'll make a blanket statement and
>say that most anime which is normally "fluff" will occasionally outshine
>its roots and deliver a potentially, yes, *mature* episode or theme
>which is contrary to type.
I'd agree that pretty much any fluff anime has the chance to, and probably
will if you watch enough, produce an excellent and mature episode.
As this discussion has progressed, I have slowly come to the realization
that I am as guilty of oversimplification and overgeneralization in
regards to anime as I have been accusing Dmambu and others of being. I
have been claiming that entire series are inherently mature because of
certain episodes. That is probably not necessarily true, and I will
probably, in the future, refrain from doing so again unless I feel that
the entire series is being shorted on credit. Instead, I will most likely
restrain myself to saying that specific episodes are mature.
However, I still think it's wrong to blow off an entire series, even if it
is generally fluff, because, IMHO, the maturity of those "genre-busters",
as you called them, can at least partly redeem a series.
Of course, this means that life just became a bit more difficult, since
I'll actually have to say that "series X is generally fluff, but episodes
A through K are generally excellent".
Yuck. :)
>I refrained from commenting on Blue Seed because I've only seen the
>first four episodes to date. Some of the stuff you mentioned elsewhere
>sounds intriguing, and I look forward to seeing it. To contribute to
>one of Dmambu's points from earlier in this thread, though, the panty
>jokes and hentai humour in Blue Seed are gratuitous--if you took them
>out, the major themes would still be there.
Probably true. There's a couple of places where it's not quite true, but
it is in general. At this point, I pretty much glaze over the panty
shots, which has become much easier now that they're much less
common(Momiji stopped wearing easy-access skirts after about episode 10,
and they'd been getting rarer before then). The first 4 episodes are ok,
but they're the worst of the entire series so far. Up until you run into
the feral dog Aragami and the man with 8 Seeds, the episode quality and
gratuity is spotty, but everything since then is downright excellent, IMO.
Unfortunately, that does mean that the viewer has to sit through spotty
quality for a while to get all the set-up for the rest, and the best, of
the series. I'm waiting for episodes 17 and 18 from ADV almost as
anxiously as I am for ep 11 and 12 of Eva.
> Same with Evangelion--you
>could take out Misato's self-proclaimed "service" shots and the basic
>nature of the anime would be unchanged. That's the very definition of
>"gratuitous".
Haven't seen most of those shot, I don't think. But I only have access to
the subtitled Evas, which are being released, IMO, tortuously slowly.
>I use a particular example from Star Trek to point out how far you seem
>to be taking your "mature anime" argument--the Ferengi. In point of
>fact, I find Star Trek as a whole to be uneven, with several gems (such
>as Voyager's "Distant Origin", or DS9's "Children of Time") and several
>pieces of utter crap (much of Voyager's first two-and-a-half seasons, or
>TNG's simplistic first-season morality plays).
I've found that any series which is episodic(almost definitional for a
series - Eva being close to an exception) is weakest at the beginning and
stronger as the characters become more understood, interrelationships
explored, etc.
I think I understand your general direction, though. I'm not sure I
necessarily agree, but I think I understand.
>"Corporations are evil" is an inherent function of the cyberpunk genre,
>of which BGC is a part. There's nothing that BGC in particular adds to
>the moral implications of that argument which are a fundamental part of
>its setting. At the core, BGC is an adventure show, using cute girls
>and cool tech. There's no deep exploration of the corporate theme.
>There's no substantial character development of the Knight Sabers. Adam
>Warren did more to develop the Knight Sabers in four issues of Grand Mal
>than was done in eight episodes of BGC.
I don't suspect I'll convince you, but I'd still like to tell you why I
disagree. First, I find that most cyberpunk, be it movies, novels, or
anime, are almost more mature than most other genres inherently, but
that's as much a genre bias as anything(I happen to love cyberpunk in
general). But more importantly, I see a significant amount of character
development in 3 of the 4 Knight Sabres(maybe I should add this to my BGC
page....), the exclusion being Sylia. Linna is originally portrayed as a
materialistic, mercenary, fickle woman. But in the course of Born to Kill
and Double Vision, we learn about the depths that are never exposed and
carefully hidden otherwise. Nene is introduced as a generally whiny,
weak woman with no self-confidence. By the end of the series(but mostly
in the final episode) she has come into her element(hacking) and has
proven herself to truly be a vital component to the Knight Sabres, a
station which, until Scoop Chase, we're never quite sure of. And Priss
develops the most, as we see her opinions on men and police change as Leon
proves himself to be worth of her, and the Knight Sabres, trust. By the
end of Red Eyes, it's Priss who's praising Leon as being "quite a guy", a
180 degree turn from her initial coldness in Tinsel City. Sylia doesn't
really develop much until Bubblegum Crash.(please, no discussions on the
relative merits or lack thereof of Bubblegum Crisis vs. Crash)
>Interesting, isn't it, that the best characters in BGC are secondary?
>Red Eyes is a classic example.
I wouldn't say that Largo, or Leon, or even Sylvie are the best
characters necessarily. As much as I like Sylvie, I see her much more as
the canvas upon which the inhumanity of the human beings in Midnight
Rambler(notably Sylia) is painted. Largo and Anri are, in some sense,
both more human than the Knight Sabres themselves - the robots who learn
how to be sadistic and meglomanical on one hand and self-sacrificing on
the other. But I wouldn't necessarily say that that makes them the "best"
characters in BGC.
>AD Police does a little more with the "what makes a human" question, but
>is subsumed by (you knew it was coming) GRATUITOUS violence, nudity, and
>sexual situations--"The Man Who Bit His Tongue" was a MUCH better manga
>story, mostly because there is not so much gratuitousness.
I would say that the nudity and sex is pretty gratuitious, although I
wouldn't necessarily say that the violence is(I'm not as familiar with ADP
as I am with BGC). Some of the violence has some definate purpose, but I
won't say it all does. I do think that The Ripper and The Man Who Bit His
Tongue would be better without the masterbation/attempted sex scenes
respectively, but I don't necessarily think the scenes destroy the anime's
maturity. Reduce it, yep, but not totally undermine it to the point that
I'm willing to say that AD Police isn't mature anime.
>Armitage III does a little better by not being nearly so flagrant.
I'd agree.
>I must respectfully disagree. While I find them entertaining, I cannot
>in any way see them as some of the "most mature" anime I've seen.
You know, this might be an interesting thing to ask in general - what
anime people felt was the most "mature" anime they'd ever seen.
>Interesting debate...I'm not sure it will ever come to a resolution,
>because at its heart, this argument is about individual tastes. I'll be
>intrigued to hear your next comments, though.
I've been enjoying our discussion as well. Even if our individual tastes
are very different, if we can both come out of this with a better
understanding of each other's point of view and reasons for said POV, I'll
consider this time well spent.
Brian
Jeb Hoge
dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>
> In article <5lh08t$k...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
> > That's too bad. And I feel that you're missing out on a huge variety of
> > anime because of it. So very little anime falls within your criteria for
> > "mature" that you will miss a good 90% of the best anime that has been
> > made, for one reason or another, be it the occasional nudity, unrealistic
> > violence, character development over plot development(or vice-versa), etc.
>
> See....it's not "occasional" nudity I have a problem with. My
> beef stemms from the fact that a good 90% of the nudity and violence in
> Anime is pointless. It just DOSEN'T have to be there. There's no reason
> for it other than as a "selling point" for the audience. I find that
> rather pandering and I don't enjoy being pandered to.
Well, for God's sake, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't HAVE to be
there, but without it, you've basically got a plot synopsis with maybe a
character study thrown in. And that, my friend, is boring. Nudity,
violence, etc. is there for dramatic tension, comic relief, or, dare I
say it, to make the fans happy. How can you be a fan if you profess to
disdain 90% (if that's what you meant to say) of the genre? That makes
you a critic. I'm not saying that the Baywatch approach is worthwhile
(you know, all jiggle, no substance), but so what if Ranma or BGC has
flashes (or more) of nudity? It's plot-driven...in Ranma, one of the
central issues is male/female perceptions and interactions, and in BGC,
Sylia's little bro Mackie is a Peeping Tom, even on his sister; it's a
character quality most teenage boys probably have (esp. when big sis's
friends are babes).
--
Jeb Hoge
TIP#198
POG#007
To e-mail, remove "nospam" from my address in the header.
The above opinions do not in any way reflect those of my company or its
employees (even me).
dma...@forest.drew.edu
In article <33806A...@nospam.worldnet.att.net>, Jeb Hoge <EIE...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> writes:
> dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
>>
>> In article <5lh08t$k...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
>> > That's too bad. And I feel that you're missing out on a huge variety of
>> > anime because of it. So very little anime falls within your criteria for
>> > "mature" that you will miss a good 90% of the best anime that has been
>> > made, for one reason or another, be it the occasional nudity, unrealistic
>> > violence, character development over plot development(or vice-versa), etc.
>>
>> See....it's not "occasional" nudity I have a problem with. My
>> beef stemms from the fact that a good 90% of the nudity and violence in
>> Anime is pointless. It just DOSEN'T have to be there. There's no reason
>> for it other than as a "selling point" for the audience. I find that
>> rather pandering and I don't enjoy being pandered to.
>
> Well, for God's sake, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't HAVE to be
> there, but without it, you've basically got a plot synopsis with maybe a
> character study thrown in. And that, my friend, is boring. Nudity,
> violence, etc. is there for dramatic tension, comic relief, or, dare I
> say it, to make the fans happy.
The animated breasts of a fictional girl are not things that make
me "happy".
> How can you be a fan if you profess to
> disdain 90% (if that's what you meant to say) of the genre? That makes
> you a critic.
No, someone else said that. Personally, I think the number is
around 75%. And yeah, so what if it makes me a critic. I'm allowed to be
critical of the things I invest more than an ocasional amount of my time
in.
> I'm not saying that the Baywatch approach is worthwhile
> (you know, all jiggle, no substance), but so what if Ranma or BGC has
> flashes (or more) of nudity? It's plot-driven...in Ranma, one of the
> central issues is male/female perceptions and interactions, and in BGC,
> Sylia's little bro Mackie is a Peeping Tom, even on his sister; it's a
> character quality most teenage boys probably have (esp. when big sis's
> friends are babes).
Again. I couldn't care less about that kind of stuff. BGC without the
nudity would still be BGC to me. I happen to like the show. I happen to
like Ranma (all 20min I saw of one). But, honestley, if they would get
rid of that damn, pandering kiddie, fan-service crap, I'm sure I'd like it
a bit more. :) But that's my opinion. There are people out there who
happen to like that sort of thing. ....eh...I couldn't really care less.
---Dmambu
Greene
> There's a gulf of difference in maturity between, say, "Akira"
> and "Patlabor 2". Akira is a good movie.....but Patlabor 2 is a FILM. I
> want more films in my Anime.
>
I agree, that's why I love Patlabor 1&2 so much. It's not like I don't
like EVERY different genre of anime (hell...I'll even watch crap like
Baoh if I'm desperate enough...), but the movies that DON'T rely on sex
and violence to be great are the best ones in my opinion (no "mature"
gimmick). Just in case you haven't seen them, I'd suggest picking up
something like The Wings of Honneamise, Roujin Z, or even a fansubbed
copy of Memories (my current favorite...a MUST see!). These are just as
satisfying to me as Patlabor (i.e. you get satisfaction from USING your
brain rather than watch someone else's splatter), and I can almost
gurantee your satisfaction:)
Remeber, every anime fan likes different stuff...but the beauty of anime
is that there IS something for everyone! You just have to know where to
look...
- D'Ary
Innpchan
In article <5lkrd7$2...@lace.colorado.edu>, ang...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU
(ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD) writes:
>
>I see the problem as this - not all mature anime need to discuss
>controversial topics, only discuss topics intelligently and make a
>definate point about them(IMO).
>
>
They don't even REALLY need to make a point-- witness Omoide Poro Poro.
Beautiful, mature, thought-provoking[1], but... can anybody tell me what
it's "point" was? I don't think it needed one, but OTOH that's probably
why some consider it boring.
thepig
[1] Maybe "memory-provoking" would be more appropriate.
Innpchan
In article <5lm3a6$et3$1...@Mercury.mcs.net>, doca...@MCS.COM (Angst-sensei)
writes:
>
>>>Bubblegum Crisis, and by extension, AD Police, are hardly "politically
>>>or socially charged". They're fairly standard action fare with a
>>>cyberpunk setting. If you read too much depth into an anime just
>>>because of its setting, you cheapen the work of writers who create
>>>stories which rise above their genre.
>>
>>I feel that half the reason for Bubblegum to exist is the commentary it
>>makes on the power of corporations, and AD Police exists expressly for
>>asking the question "What does it mean to be human, and at what point do
>>you stop being human?" Bubblegum, especially Born to Kill and Red Eyes,
>>tackles those issues as well.
>
>"Corporations are evil" is an inherent function of the cyberpunk genre,
>of which BGC is a part.
I'm gonna finally get in on this:
Angst, take a step back. Look at your last statement. Remember when and
where BGC was made: Japan in the late 1980s, when the zaibatsu were
enjoying their greatest triumph. To suggest that the very forces that had
restored Japan's prestige and had given her power like she'd never had
before could be... EVIL?!?!?
Bubblegum Crisis wasn't just mature. For the time and place it was made
it was damn near revolutionary, and I don't mean that in the artistic
sense.
> There's no deep exploration of the corporate theme.
>There's no substantial character development of the Knight Sabers. Adam
>Warren did more to develop the Knight Sabers in four issues of Grand Mal
>than was done in eight episodes of BGC.
>
But please remember BGC was never completed. In addition, we already knew
who the characters were before GM started, so Warren got a running start.
As to "deep exploration of the corporate theme", you don't think
portraying a corporation's assassination of civilians (Irene), murder of
its own workers (Born to Kill), clear control over government affairs, and
even slavery (the 33-Ss) are deep and, given the time and place of its
production, even daring? You may want to think again. Don't apply the
American showbiz staple of "big business is evil" to anime. It doesn't
apply to the Land of Salarymen-- at least, it didn't in 1987.
I'll be the first to admit BGC did not acheive its potential (That's MY
job-- ain't fanfic grand?), and I'm not optimistic about the upcoming
series picking up the torch, but it WASN'T just action-adventure fluff.
>AD Police does a little more with the "what makes a human" question, but
>is subsumed by (you knew it was coming) GRATUITOUS violence, nudity, and
>sexual situations--"The Man Who Bit His Tongue" was a MUCH better manga
>story, mostly because there is not so much gratuitousness.
>
Of course, we have NO argument on this point!
thepig
randall floyd
> Again. I couldn't care less about that kind of stuff. BGC without the
> nudity would still be BGC to me. I happen to like the show. I happen to
> like Ranma (all 20min I saw of one). But, honestley, if they would get
> rid of that damn, pandering kiddie, fan-service crap, I'm sure I'd like it
> a bit more. :) But that's my opinion. There are people out there who
> happen to like that sort of thing. ....eh...I couldn't really care less.
>
> ---Dmambu
well i guess you should probably direct your complaints towards the
original manga creators/artists/etc... after all... i personally
wouldn't change much if anything in anime... what it is is what makes it
what it is... if you want it different then that is fine but it still
sounds like you want a a certain genre' of anime to over take the whole
thing... i wouldn't want that...
Ookami
ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD
In article <19970520184...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Innpchan <innp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>They don't even REALLY need to make a point-- witness Omoide Poro Poro.
I haven't seen that anime. At least, not yet. The best video store in
town has a pretty decent stock of anime, at least in comparison to the
rest of the stores in town. Guess I'll just have to ask them to order
that anime in for me....
Brian
Weapon X
innpchan wrote:
[Snip]
Excellent points about BGC.. er.. pig. And I prefer MR too.^_^;;
Weapon X
K.G.O.A.: Belldandy, Hino Rei, Lina, Mihoshi, Priss, Nene, Chun Li, Leona.
CAPOW Home Page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~krramdat/capow/
The Ranma 1/2 Ward: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~krramdat/ranmain.html
The BGC Ward: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/9057/