RGU: Anthy's Ethnicity
Deklane
others. Some fans have assumed that she is of a different ethnic/racial group
than the other characters (the letter column in Animerica for 12/98 includes
her in a list of non-white or black anime characters). Somebody on this NG
suggested that she is Indian due to the dot on her forehead.
Now, this is anime, where the fine points of racial differences between white
and Asian get lost. In an episode of 801 TTS Airbats where the Japanese cast
met a group of Americans, the only way to tell them apart was that the
Americans were larger. Not to mention the fact that in RGU, hair color is all
over the map. These are Japanese characters, but I'm sure it would be hard to
find people in Japan with pink, red, green, and blue hair (at least naturally
-- depending on the current fads amongst the trendy kids, you never know).
RGU's characters are so stylized that I'm not sure they're even meant to be a
naturalistic depiction of Human Beings As We Know Them.
My impression is that Anthy's depiction (dark skin, purple hair, green eyes)
doesn't reflect any ethnic group in the real world, but just the animators
thinking it looked striking. The dot on her forehead may just be a mole (or
euphemistically, a "beauty mark"). I haven't seen any episodes beyond the first
seven, of course, though I did take a quick glance at some of the plot
summaries posted in the on-line Utena Encyclopedia and saw that Anthy is
somehow connected with some of the "mysteries" around the place (and has a
similarly dark brother who is important in the scheme of things).
So I guess my question for the Utena experts is: does Anthy really have a
definitely stated ethnic origin in the series, or is she just depicted that way
because the animators thought it would be cool? (I'm reluctant to poke around
even further into the Utena Encyclopedia to find out because I've already
ruined enough of the series for myself as it is.) I'm asking this because I'm
writing something about the series and don't want to look like an idiot in
print by making some dumb remark that is completely Wrong. Not that it would be
anything new, but...
--Dwight Decker
Deklane
>From: dek...@aol.com (Deklane)
>Now, this is anime, where the fine points of racial differences between white
and Asian get lost. In an episode of 801 TTS Airbats where the Japanese cast
met a group of Americans, the only way to tell them apart was that the
Americans were larger.>>
To say nothing of the fact that one of the Japanese characters in 801 TTS
Airbats is considerably darker than the others and another has pink hair.
--Dwight Decker
David Crowe
: >Subject: RGU: Anthy's Ethnicity
: >From: dek...@aol.com (Deklane)
Arisa has some backstory in the manga that explains her skin tone. Her
father was a black American Air Force officer and her mother was Japanese.
Her mixed heritiage is (part of) the reason why she was always getting
into fights.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"Shouldn't Martin Landau be on the moon now?"
-Fox Trot
Deklane
>From: David Crowe <jet...@primenet.com>
>Arisa has some backstory in the manga that explains her skin tone. Her father
was a black American Air Force officer and her mother was Japanese. Her mixed
heritiage is (part of) the reason why she was always getting into fights.
>
Good grief! An actual real-world explanation! Amazing for anime. (Still wonder
about the pink hair on the funny character, though.) Being half black and half
Japanese probably isn't a recipe for social acceptance in Japan from what I've
heard... Still, anybody know anything about Anthy?
--Dwight Decker
Avatar
>
> In Revolutionary Girl Utena, the character Anthy is noticeably darker than the
> others. Some fans have assumed that she is of a different ethnic/racial group
> than the other characters (the letter column in Animerica for 12/98 includes
> her in a list of non-white or black anime characters). Somebody on this NG
> suggested that she is Indian due to the dot on her forehead.
>
> and Asian get lost. In an episode of 801 TTS Airbats where the Japanese cast
> met a group of Americans, the only way to tell them apart was that the
> over the map. These are Japanese characters, but I'm sure it would be hard to
> find people in Japan with pink, red, green, and blue hair (at least naturally
> -- depending on the current fads amongst the trendy kids, you never know).
> RGU's characters are so stylized that I'm not sure they're even meant to be a
> naturalistic depiction of Human Beings As We Know Them.
>
> My impression is that Anthy's depiction (dark skin, purple hair, green eyes)
> doesn't reflect any ethnic group in the real world, but just the animators
> thinking it looked striking. The dot on her forehead may just be a mole (or
> euphemistically, a "beauty mark"). I haven't seen any episodes beyond the first
> seven, of course, though I did take a quick glance at some of the plot
> summaries posted in the on-line Utena Encyclopedia and saw that Anthy is
> somehow connected with some of the "mysteries" around the place (and has a
> similarly dark brother who is important in the scheme of things).
Look at it this way... -I- have a big brown dot on my forehead. Yes,
it's a birthmark. No, most people don't say a thing (or even really
notice it that much.) Every so often, though, I get somebody asking me,
"Are you Hindu?" Never mind that I'm -male-. ;p
Avatar
--
"Why do you not let me contemplate in peace?"
"'Cause I'm the GOD OF DESTRUCTION, that's why!"
-Kushinada and Susano Orbatos, "Orion", Shirow
Scott Johnson
> My impression is that Anthy's depiction (dark skin, purple hair, green eyes)
> doesn't reflect any ethnic group in the real world, but just the animators
> thinking it looked striking. The dot on her forehead may just be a mole (or
> euphemistically, a "beauty mark"). I haven't seen any episodes beyond the first
> seven, of course, though I did take a quick glance at some of the plot
> summaries posted in the on-line Utena Encyclopedia and saw that Anthy is
> somehow connected with some of the "mysteries" around the place (and has a
> similarly dark brother who is important in the scheme of things).
> So I guess my question for the Utena experts is: does Anthy really have a
> definitely stated ethnic origin in the series, or is she just depicted that way
> because the animators thought it would be cool? (I'm reluctant to poke around
> even further into the Utena Encyclopedia to find out because I've already
> ruined enough of the series for myself as it is.) I'm asking this because I'm
> writing something about the series and don't want to look like an idiot in
> print by making some dumb remark that is completely Wrong. Not that it would be
> anything new, but...
It's never actually stated either way. Much later on, we do get an
episode going briefly into Anthy and her brother's history, but it doesn't
look too closely at where they were born or who their parents were or
anything along those lines. It does leave things open enough that it's
not at all inconcievable they or their parents are from India or the
environs, though. Then again, it's also entirely possible that their
looks are an animation affectation, as you said. (They do look a lot
alike, I should note, down to near-identical skin tones, similar hair
shades, and even the dots on their foreheads.) Of course, around the time
we meet Anthy's brother, we also encounter another character with a
striking resemblance to both of them, and any connection remains a mystery
until, oh, around the end of the second story arc...
Kudos, by the way, for resisting the temptation to spoil yourself. I've
always held that Utena is a series that really, really benefits from not
knowing what's next... There's plenty of stuff in the series that
*nobody* predicted when it was first coming out, and I remember how
satisfying the surprise was. It's worth avoiding the spoilers, trust me
-- you'll be glad you did.
--
Scott Johnson |
za...@io.com | This world intentionally left revolutionized.
Deklane
>Kudos, by the way, for resisting the temptation to spoil yourself. I've
always held that Utena is a series that really, really benefits from not
knowing what's next... There's plenty of stuff in the series that *nobody*
predicted when it was first coming out, and I remember how satisfying the
surprise was. It's worth avoiding the spoilers, trust me -- you'll be glad you
did.<
Thanks for answering my question about Anthy! It was exactly what I was looking
for. And yes, I'm trying hard to keep my ignorance intact so I can be surprised
by the series as it goes along. Though sometimes the surprises aren't exactly
pleasant. Ep 4 painted an idyllic picture of Miki and his twin sister playing
the piano, Ep 5 turned it around on a sour note. I guess there's worse/stranger
to come...
--Dwight Decker
dila...@hotmail.com
> Thanks for answering my question about Anthy! It was exactly what I was looking
> for. And yes, I'm trying hard to keep my ignorance intact so I can be surprised
> by the series as it goes along. Though sometimes the surprises aren't exactly
> pleasant. Ep 4 painted an idyllic picture of Miki and his twin sister playing
> the piano, Ep 5 turned it around on a sour note. I guess there's worse/stranger
> to come...
>
> --Dwight Decker
There is. His name is Akio.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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joe
(Deklane) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: RGU: Anthy's Ethnicity
I can't say for sure in the world of Utena, for reasons that ought to
be obvious to anyone who has watched the show, but both Anthy and Anshy
(the way it ends up pronounced) are indian names (east of course). I have
seen both of these in phone books, bylines, etc. They are legitimate
indian names.
As for Dio... I don't know. It has the obvious point to latin, but at
the same time I know several Indians who go by Theo (and there are some
cross root entanglements with ancient Indian and latin languages that I'm
not an expert of so there is a gap in my ability to say one thing or the
other for certain).
As for hair color and eye color... Well there is Joshuagan and Sumire
in Battle Angel Alita who seem to be blond in hair color and light in eye
colors, but they have indian names and dark skins. Then you have the
indian guy in Prefectual Defense Force who is blond. It could go either
way.
Heck, there are even mangas (don't remember names right now) where the
Indians look just like the Japanese (the one I remember, the character was
a very sympathetic one... and those usualy look Japanese no matter where
they are from in manga... kind of like how they find the whitest looking
blacks for protagonists in some American things).
On that note: If anyone can remember a shoujo manga (published by
flower comics I believe) that had a Indian woman as one of the main
characters, and involved stories of a group of friends in late teens to
early 20's and was published sometime around 92-95, let me know... I've
been searching for that title for a while (not very hard mind you) on my
own with no luck.
-M. (Wasn't there a cute little Indian girl who got blown away by Deunan
in Appleseed who had light colored hair as well? Does this make it a manga
clich?)
Wyvern
Deklane <dek...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990112084803...@ng37.aol.com>...
> --Dwight Decker
Well......she looks kind of Indian to me........it's probably the mole on
her forehead, but that's how it seems.......I consider her to be non-white,
but I don't know if she's black or indian (and by wich I mean from India,
not Native American) It seems to be simply a cosmetic reason,
though......even if she is black or indian, it doesen't seem to matter much
to anyone.....incidentally, Anty is the only black/darkskinned anime
heroine I can think of.......others being Mihoshi (she looks black to
me.....but considering her intellegence that's hopefully not what the
creators intended to have the darkest charecter in Tenchi also be the most
inept. It's probably just a desgin thing, plus she's not really human
anyways) and Nadia (whose look is intential, as Gainax wanted her to look
exotic, and in Japan that's exactly what any dark skinned person would be.)
And Nadia is most definatly black, it would seem, as Jean's first choice of
where to go to look for her family is Africa.
Also incidentally, it strikes me that if the right group of idiots got a
hold of it, (they'd probably not even understand half of it)Utena would be
a subject of huge protest and controversy. First, the heroine is openly
bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
opens, and is hit on by female classmates but at the same time seems to
still love her prince from long ago) and from the looks of things, she and
Anty are going to end up more than just friends......(look at the opening!)
so we'll have a gay AND interacail realtionship...........not to mention
that the only black (or whatever) charecter seems to have an attitude of
complete submission and does whatever is asked of her by whoever she is
"engaged" to...........not to mention that she can get a sword pulled out
of her chest! Kids might try that at home and stab each other to death! The
horror!
--
-Wyvern
"It is a world that has been cleansed" Gendo said. "Purged of the original
sin"
Fuyutski paused again to contemplate the hell on earth outside his window
for a moment before replying,"I'd rather have a world where people can
*live*.....no matter how stained with sin."
-Neon Genesis Evangelion
"While I never thought of anything as frightening, I prefer someone who is
simply, I prefer someone who hardly makes an effort and shows some tears
once in a while. However, let's all be cool!"
-more anime lyrics that make no sense whatsoever (from the SailorMoon R
closing "A Maiden's Policy")
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."
I love you, Leareth, now and forever!
Patrick Drazen
Wyvern wrote:
> it strikes me that if the right group of idiots got a
> hold of it, (they'd probably not even understand half of it)Utena would be
> a subject of huge protest and controversy. First, the heroine is openly
> bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
> opens, and is hit on by female classmates but at the same time seems to
> still love her prince from long ago) and from the looks of things, she and
> Anty are going to end up more than just friends......(look at the opening!)
> so we'll have a gay AND interacail realtionship...........not to mention
> that the only black (or whatever) charecter seems to have an attitude of
> complete submission and does whatever is asked of her by whoever she is
> "engaged" to...........not to mention that she can get a sword pulled out
> of her chest! Kids might try that at home and stab each other to death! The
> horror!
>
> Wyvern
If by "idiots" you mean "thumpers", some of those seem to have surfaced
already. However, and let me make this perfectly clear: the Utena characters
are not bi! I don't say this as a spoiler (I know nothing of the series beyond
the first four eps) but knowing the conventions of shoujo manga. One
convention is that characters in this age-group (7th grade to high school
freshman) form intense same-sex attachments without being sexually physical
about it. "Project A-ko" is probably the best-known anime example of this
tendency.
As for the submissiveness; while it bothers me that Anthy can't seem to get
from one episode to another without getting slapped (and this may be done just
to inspire pity in the viewer), I don't consider that a racial trait. If
anything, it's gender-related; a lot of shoujo manga and anime include a female
character who is yasashii in the extreme; so much so that the character seems
like a parody of the submissive female. The animated Belldandy, for instance,
seems much more passive than her manga counterpart. As for doing whatever
people tell her to do, bear in mind that Japan is a culture where destiny is
still a major component. The United States, by contrast, is built on the
belief that you can reinvent yourself as often as need be. But if Anthy's
destiny is to be the Rose Bride (whatever that means), she'll follow it. Part
of the plot of "Sailor Moon", after all, is that Usagi is perhaps the least
qualified to lead the Senshi; however, being Princess Serenity in her past life
and the others being her assistants, the roles continue.
As for the sword; that's somehow tied into the Power of Deos, of which I know
nothing and will wait until the story reveals that answer. But it's probably
the most surreal image in the whole series.
Patrick Drazen
who really digs Anthy when she wears her "male uniform" on horseback in the
opening
Kyle T. Pope
>If by "idiots" you mean "thumpers", some of those seem to have surfaced
>already. However, and let me make this perfectly clear: the Utena characters
>are not bi! I don't say this as a spoiler (I know nothing of the series beyond
>the first four eps) but knowing the conventions of shoujo manga.
Major Spoiler Alert...
M
O
K
U
S
H
I
R
O
K
U
There are bi and gay characters in "Utena". I've seen the show all the way
through to the end and the first four episodes don't even begin to suggest the
intensity of the sexual politics that forms the backdrop of this series. There
may be certain conventions to shoujo manga but it was Ikuhara-san's intent to
turn these conventions upside down. He succeeds brilliantly.
> One
>convention is that characters in this age-group (7th grade to high school
>freshman) form intense same-sex attachments without being sexually physical
>about it. "Project A-ko" is probably the best-known anime example of this
>tendency.
Except for B-ko's feelings towards C-ko which motivates her little war against
A-ko.
>As for the submissiveness; while it bothers me that Anthy can't seem to get
>from one episode to another without getting slapped (and this may be done just
>to inspire pity in the viewer), I don't consider that a racial trait. If
>anything, it's gender-related; a lot of shoujo manga and anime include a female
>character who is yasashii in the extreme; so much so that the character seems
>like a parody of the submissive female.
Keep watching. There's a lot about Anshii you don't know yet and by the time
it's over pity will be the last thing you feel towards Anshii.
>As for the sword; that's somehow tied into the Power of Deos, of which I know
>nothing and will wait until the story reveals that answer. But it's probably
>the most surreal image in the whole series.
And one of the most sexually charged ones.
Though certainly not the only such image.
--
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered." - No. 6
Bob Macfie
Patrick Drazen wrote:
>
> As for the sword; that's somehow tied into the Power of Deos, of which I
> know nothing and will wait until the story reveals that answer. But
> it's probably the most surreal image in the whole series.
I always thought the dueling ground (atop a stem shaped staircase) was
the most surreal image from the series - even moreso than the floating
castle above it!
>
> Patrick Drazen
> who really digs Anthy when she wears her "male uniform" on horseback in >the opening
Yes, that is rather striking.
Bob Macfie
Paul Lampshire
>Anty is the only black/darkskinned anime
>heroine I can think of.......others being Mihoshi (she looks black to
>me.....but considering her intellegence that's hopefully not what the
>creators intended to have the darkest charecter in Tenchi also be the most
>inept.
Ah, but she's also *blonde* So she has to be inept. And there's a large body
of opinion that says that she *isn't* inept anyway, but I digress...
<snip>
>First, the heroine is openly
>bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
>opens,
You mean Hakaba, right? AFAICT that's all on her part. Utena is *very*
embarrased by the whole thing Let me put it another way. The only one who
acknowledges that is Hakaba herself...
And besides which, Utena says that she's just a normal girl and all she
wants is a normal guy...
>and is hit on by female classmates
Yes, and? Utena seems to be of the opinion that they're joking. Kuno hits
on Ranma, so does his sister. Does that say anything about Ranma?
>but at the same time seems to
>still love her prince from long ago)
It can't be that long ago - she has the ring which was given to her [and not
in a previous life]
>and from the looks of things, she and
>Anty are going to end up more than just friends......(look at the opening!)
Hmmm. I think we have a C-ko/A-ko situation here...
--
God's in His heaven, all's right with the world.
sanjian
Paul Lampshire wrote in message <77tr4f$gpv$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
>>heroine I can think of.......others being Mihoshi (she looks black to
>>me.....but considering her intellegence that's hopefully not what the
>>creators intended to have the darkest charecter in Tenchi also be the most
>>inept.
>
body
>of opinion that says that she *isn't* inept anyway, but I digress...
>
><snip>
>>bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
>>opens,
>
>embarrased by the whole thing Let me put it another way. The only one who
>acknowledges that is Hakaba herself...
I think there may be less to that than it seems. It seems to be a joke or
game. There's a lot of that that goes on in the navy, and I think this is
just the same.
>And besides which, Utena says that she's just a normal girl and all she
>wants is a normal guy...
>
>>and is hit on by female classmates
>
>Yes, and? Utena seems to be of the opinion that they're joking. Kuno hits
>on Ranma, so does his sister. Does that say anything about Ranma?
>
>>but at the same time seems to
>>still love her prince from long ago)
>
>It can't be that long ago - she has the ring which was given to her [and
not
>in a previous life]
>
>>and from the looks of things, she and
>>Anty are going to end up more than just friends......(look at the
opening!)
>
>Hmmm. I think we have a C-ko/A-ko situation here...
IIRC, the creator of Project A-ko said that it wasn't a lesbian thing, just
a jelousy thing. B-ko just wanted what A-ko had.
The Queen of Diamonds let you down, she was just an empty fable,
the Queen of Hearts, you said you say you never met.
Your twisted fate has found you out, and finally turned the tables;
stole your dreams, and paid you with regret.
---Desparado Reprise, The Eagles
Kyle T. Pope
>You mean Hakaba, right? AFAICT that's all on her part. Utena is *very*
>embarrased by the whole thing Let me put it another way. The only one who
>acknowledges that is Hakaba herself...
Wakaba is not in love with Utena. She's just happy being the best friend of the
coolest girl in school. The first episode establishes that Wakaba has got it
bad for Saionji (calling her judgement very much into question). Wakaba is as
genki as they come.
Disruptor
> We've had this thread before, but what the hey.
>
> Anthy Himemiya
> Miaka from Airbats (mixed black and Asian ancestry)
> Rally Vincent (Father was East Indian, mother caucasian)
> Nadia (From Atlantis, gets her looks from her mother)
> Claudia Grant
> Bowie Grant
> That kid who pilots the Griffon in Patlabor (Indian citizen)
> Cheif Todo from Bubblegum Crisis
> Lisa Vanette, his neice (Possibly from the same place as Mihoshi)
> Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius (POB listed as Australia, IIRC)
> One of the Gall Force girls.
>
> Any others?
DeeJay
Balrog/Mike Bison the boxer from Street Fighter
> One thought about Mihoshi. She's blond, ditzy and has a great tan. Could
> she be a stereotype of a "California girl?"
could be.
Deklane
>From: kyle...@cris.de.spam.com (Kyle T. Pope)
>Wakaba is not in love with Utena. She's just happy being the best friend of
the coolest girl in school.>
I don't doubt that you're right, but the dub dialogue could be misinterpreted
by people inclined to put the most extreme interpretation on things. (As when
Wakaba tells Utena "You'll always be my true love.") There's also the scene at
the very beginning where Wakaba is waiting for Utena, and says "HE'S late!"
then calls Utena her "BOYfriend." My guess is that the ambiguous dialogue
worked a lot better in the original Japanese, and the translation makes it
sound more definite (and odder) than perhaps was intended. And these are
14-year-old girls who probably haven't had a real boyfriend yet, so they're
just playing and acting out parts. (I think.)
--Dwight Decker
David Crowe
: Well......she looks kind of Indian to me........it's probably the mole on
: her forehead, but that's how it seems.......I consider her to be non-white,
: but I don't know if she's black or indian (and by wich I mean from India,
: not Native American) It seems to be simply a cosmetic reason,
: though......even if she is black or indian, it doesen't seem to matter much
: to anyone.....incidentally, Anty is the only black/darkskinned anime
: heroine I can think of.......others being Mihoshi (she looks black to
: me.....but considering her intellegence that's hopefully not what the
: creators intended to have the darkest charecter in Tenchi also be the most
: inept. It's probably just a desgin thing, plus she's not really human
: anyways) and Nadia (whose look is intential, as Gainax wanted her to look
: exotic, and in Japan that's exactly what any dark skinned person would be.)
: And Nadia is most definatly black, it would seem, as Jean's first choice of
: where to go to look for her family is Africa.
We've had this thread before, but what the hey.
Anthy Himemiya
Miaka from Airbats (mixed black and Asian ancestry)
Rally Vincent (Father was East Indian, mother caucasian)
Nadia (From Atlantis, gets her looks from her mother)
Claudia Grant
Bowie Grant
That kid who pilots the Griffon in Patlabor (Indian citizen)
Cheif Todo from Bubblegum Crisis
Lisa Vanette, his neice (Possibly from the same place as Mihoshi)
Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius (POB listed as Australia, IIRC)
One of the Gall Force girls.
Any others?
One thought about Mihoshi. She's blond, ditzy and has a great tan. Could
she be a stereotype of a "California girl?"
--
DivaLea
>Nadia (From Atlantis, gets her looks from her mother)
An interesting little side note here: Alan Moore, the comics writer, was
researching Victorian-era adventure fiction for a new comic, THE LEAGUE OF
EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN. He said in an interview that he was surprised to learn
Captain Nemo, as written by Jules Verne, was black.
Hee. Hee. I saw the guys at Gainax watching the Disney 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE
SEA over and over while storyboarding SoBW, but -they- had some other reference
(Nemo in 20,000 is played by James Mason, a white guy), because Nemo is
definitely "of color".
Lea
CLOCKWORK ANGELS, intro by Warren Ellis
Image Comics, 3/99
Pre-order now from PREVIEWS! (January, page 111)
http://members.aol.com/divalea
David Johnston
>
> Wyvern wrote:
>
> > it strikes me that if the right group of idiots got a
> > hold of it, (they'd probably not even understand half of it)Utena would be
> > a subject of huge protest and controversy. First, the heroine is openly
> > bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
> > opens, and is hit on by female classmates but at the same time seems to
> > still love her prince from long ago) and from the looks of things, she and
> > Anty are going to end up more than just friends......(look at the opening!)
> > so we'll have a gay AND interacail realtionship...........not to mention
> > that the only black (or whatever) charecter seems to have an attitude of
> > complete submission and does whatever is asked of her by whoever she is
> > "engaged" to...........not to mention that she can get a sword pulled out
> > of her chest! Kids might try that at home and stab each other to death! The
> > horror!
> >
>
> If by "idiots" you mean "thumpers", some of those seem to have surfaced
> already. However, and let me make this perfectly clear: the Utena characters
> are not bi! I don't say this as a spoiler (I know nothing of the series beyond
> convention is that characters in this age-group (7th grade to high school
> freshman) form intense same-sex attachments without being sexually physical
> about it. "Project A-ko" is probably the best-known anime example of this
> tendency.
You know, "Project A-Ko" started out as a lemon project. But then A-Ko isn't
really shoujo. However, Haruka and Micheru _are_ shoujo. Sometimes those
intense relationships are exactly what they seem to Western eyes. However,
what I've heard of Utena suggests that she isn't actually bisexual. Her
relationship is Anthy is more complicated than that. As for the other girls
who hit on her, that says more about their sexuality than Utena's.
>
> As for the submissiveness; while it bothers me that Anthy can't seem to get
> from one episode to another without getting slapped (and this may be done just
> to inspire pity in the viewer), I don't consider that a racial trait. If
> anything, it's gender-related; a lot of shoujo manga and anime include a female
> character who is yasashii in the extreme; so much so that the character seems
> like a parody of the submissive female. The animated Belldandy, for instance,
> seems much more passive than her manga counterpart. As for doing whatever
> people tell her to do, bear in mind that Japan is a culture where destiny is
> still a major component. The United States, by contrast, is built on the
> belief that you can reinvent yourself as often as need be. But if Anthy's
> destiny is to be the Rose Bride (whatever that means), she'll follow it. Part
> of the plot of "Sailor Moon", after all, is that Usagi is perhaps the least
> qualified to lead the Senshi; however, being Princess Serenity in her past life
> and the others being her assistants, the roles continue.
I believe that dramatically Anthy is there to stand in contrast to Utena
and her desire to take charge of her life. In Ranma 1/2, Nabiki and
Kasumi are similarly icons of personal ambition, versus self-abnegation.
>
> As for the sword; that's somehow tied into the Power of Deos, of which I know
> nothing and will wait until the story reveals that answer. But it's probably
> the most surreal image in the whole series.
>
Paul Lampshire
>Anthy Himemiya
>Miaka from Airbats (mixed black and Asian ancestry)
>Rally Vincent (Father was East Indian, mother caucasian)
>Bowie Grant
>That kid who pilots the Griffon in Patlabor (Indian citizen)
>Cheif Todo from Bubblegum Crisis
>Lisa Vanette, his neice (Possibly from the same place as Mihoshi)
>Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius (POB listed as Australia, IIRC)
>One of the Gall Force girls.
Ran (Green legend Ran)
One of the Sol Bianca girls
Lalah Sun [Gundam]
The Indian guy from Prefectural Earth Defense Force
Ray Lovelock {Macross 7]
The hairdresser from Macross II whose name eludes me for the moment.
One of the Burn-Up W girls
The guys hired to hunt down deserters [Area 88]
Talos [Crusher Joe]
Claudia Why-can't-I-remember-her-name-you-know-Roy-Fokker's-Girlfriend
[Macross]
Plus, if we count non-human characters
Pirotess [Lodoss Wars & Cristiania]
Arshes Nei {Bastard!!]
Fam [Fam & Iri]
Ken Arromdee
>researching Victorian-era adventure fiction for a new comic, THE LEAGUE OF
>EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN. He said in an interview that he was surprised to learn
>Captain Nemo, as written by Jules Verne, was black.
>Hee. Hee. I saw the guys at Gainax watching the Disney 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE
>SEA over and over while storyboarding SoBW, but -they- had some other reference
>(Nemo in 20,000 is played by James Mason, a white guy), because Nemo is
>definitely "of color".
Actually, Nemo was also meant to be black in the original plans for Nadia....
They changed that, though.
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank into the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5
Mark L. Neidengard
Wyvern <yaraveCRUSHTH...@gte.net> wrote:
>
>
>Deklane <dek...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19990112084803...@ng37.aol.com>...
>
>Well......she looks kind of Indian to me........it's probably the mole on
>her forehead, but that's how it seems.......I consider her to be non-white,
>but I don't know if she's black or indian (and by wich I mean from India,
>not Native American) It seems to be simply a cosmetic reason,
>though......even if she is black or indian, it doesen't seem to matter much
>to anyone.....incidentally, Anty is the only black/darkskinned anime
>heroine I can think of.......others being Mihoshi (she looks black to
>me.....but considering her intellegence that's hopefully not what the
>creators intended to have the darkest charecter in Tenchi also be the most
>inept. It's probably just a desgin thing, plus she's not really human
>anyways) and Nadia (whose look is intential, as Gainax wanted her to look
>exotic, and in Japan that's exactly what any dark skinned person would be.)
>And Nadia is most definatly black, it would seem, as Jean's first choice of
>where to go to look for her family is Africa.
Several things to be said at this point. First of all, when the Japanese say
a "black" (or "dark-skinned") person, it covers a lot of ground. I have a
friend who was labeled "black" even though he was ethnically Indian (i.e. from
India). I think the lesson is that dark-skinned characters need not be
implicity of Afro stock - in Nadia's case, for example, wanting to go to Africa
was _Nadia_'s suggestion, not Jean's, based on the fact that King was an
African lion. Looking at her and Nemo, I might have guessed their ethnicity
to be more like somewhere in the islands than the African continent, but oh
well. ^_^ As for Anthy, I am tempted to put her ethnicity as Indian both
because of skin tone and her spot...and there is another character (Akio) who
is of the same stock. As it turns out, it doesn't matter where they're from
exactly - it suffices to say they're not from "around here". ^_-
>Also incidentally, it strikes me that if the right group of idiots got a
>hold of it, (they'd probably not even understand half of it)Utena would be
>a subject of huge protest and controversy.
This has been thought for a while. ^_^
>First, the heroine is openly
>bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
>opens, and is hit on by female classmates but at the same time seems to
>still love her prince from long ago)
Um, hold up a sec. Wakaba is her best friend - and despite Wakaba saying that
Utena's her "boyfriend", the series makes it pretty clear that an actual
sexual relation is not in the cards. As a Japanese friend of mine once put it,
"you from the West might be surprised, but girls in Japan really _do_ have
Platonic friendships that are that close." Without going into spoilers, I
think the upshot of the series is that Utena is _basically_ heterosexual. This
is not to say that there aren't characters in the series with other
orientations....
>and from the looks of things, she and
>Anty are going to end up more than just friends......(look at the opening!)
One thing to be careful of with Utena is that a lot of the promotional art
and OP/EDs are somewhat more..."tantalizing" than the actual _story_ itself
gives out. Just watch as the actual episodes unfold, and you may get a
slightly different picture.
>so we'll have a gay AND interacail realtionship...........not to mention
>that the only black (or whatever) charecter seems to have an attitude of
>complete submission and does whatever is asked of her by whoever she is
>"engaged" to...........
There is at least one very good reason for this, which will be explained over
the course of the series.
>not to mention that she can get a sword pulled out
>of her chest! Kids might try that at home and stab each other to death! The
>horror!
I guess it's a good thing there aren't many swords in circulation in the U.S.,
huh? ^_-
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Mark L. Neidengard
Patrick Drazen <pdr...@usa.net> wrote:
>If by "idiots" you mean "thumpers", some of those seem to have surfaced
>already. However, and let me make this perfectly clear: the Utena characters
>are not bi! I don't say this as a spoiler (I know nothing of the series beyond
>the first four eps) but knowing the conventions of shoujo manga. One
If you "know" shoujo manga you should "know" that it covers a lot of ground.
And _certainly_ doesn't prohibit bisexual characters. And it's certainly not
in your best interest to make proclamations about a series if you've only
seen the first four episodes - I'll state as a possible semi-spoiler that there
_are_ characters in the show who might well be bisexual. The audience will
judge for itself when the time comes.
DivaLea
>Actually, Nemo was also meant to be black in the original plans for Nadia....
>They changed that, though.
I dunno, he still looks like he has more than a tan to me.
David Crowe
: Ken sez:
: >Actually, Nemo was also meant to be black in the original plans for Nadia....
: >They changed that, though.
: I dunno, he still looks like he has more than a tan to me.
There is a _real_ early promo/design sheet reproduced on page 90-91 of the
Nadia Roman Album. Nadia has sort of curly hair and a "Sheeta-esque"
outfit, Jean is sans glasses and Capt. Nemo looks a lot more black,
including very large lips.
Nadia has a whip in this version too. If Gainax had kept that bit, I'm
sure ADV would have released the show already...
Paul Lampshire
>Paul Lampshire wrote in message <77tr4f$gpv$1...@plug.news.pipex.net>...
>>Wyvern wrote in message <77rpms$ori$2...@news-1.news.gte.net>...
>>>bisexual (or at least seems to be, she's got a girlfreind as the story
>>>opens,
>>
>>embarrased by the whole thing Let me put it another way. The only one who
>>acknowledges that is Hakaba herself...
>
>game. There's a lot of that that goes on in the navy, and I think this is
>just the same.
And yes, I know I mean Wakaba. [It's all the stuff about Utena wanting 'a
prince on a white horse' [Pauses for a moment. Anybody who's seen the UK
release of Devi lHunter Yoko [Vol2 [OAVs 2 and 3]] will be wondering if,
just perhaps [since 'prince' is 'oji-sama' [not sure if that's a long i or a
short one]] that when the lyric refers to her wanting an 'older guy'
[oji-sama] the translator screwed up?]]]
I think you're probably right, btw. I guess I got so focussed on pointing
out that utena doesn't think of it that way that maybe I made it sound more
serious than it was.
Ken Arromdee
>>her forehead, but that's how it seems.......I consider her to be non-white,
>>but I don't know if she's black or indian (and by wich I mean from India,
>>not Native American) It seems to be simply a cosmetic reason,
>>though......even if she is black or indian, it doesen't seem to matter much
>>to anyone.....
I believe near the start of the series Jean's aunt (or was it his grandmother)
tells him that he shouldn't be inviting black girls in. She is very obviously
prejudiced against Nadia based on her race.
There's also one of the episodes where the Nautilus stops on an island and
Nemo says that race doesn't matter on the Nautilus... implying that it does
matter elsewhere.
Caralee Kassos
: Anthy Himemiya
: Miaka from Airbats (mixed black and Asian ancestry)
: Rally Vincent (Father was East Indian, mother caucasian)
: Nadia (From Atlantis, gets her looks from her mother)
: Claudia Grant
: Bowie Grant
: That kid who pilots the Griffon in Patlabor (Indian citizen)
: Cheif Todo from Bubblegum Crisis
: Lisa Vanette, his neice (Possibly from the same place as Mihoshi)
: Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius (POB listed as Australia, IIRC)
: One of the Gall Force girls.
: Any others?
Briareos from Appleseed (granted, you can't really tell. In the data
book, there are pictures of him before he was made into a cyborg and he
appears to be black)
And I seem to remember Deunan saying somewhere in the manga that her
grandmother was black (I'm not sure I buy it, though. Deunan's even paler
than I am!)
Feb from Sol Bianca
Caldina, Tarta and Tatra from Rayearth
--
-Arcadia
+---------------------------------------------------+
|email: arc...@crl.com or s104...@admiral.umsl.edu|
+---------------------------------------------------+
DivaLea
>Nadia Roman Album. Nadia has sort of curly hair and a "Sheeta-esque"
>outfit,
Oh, I remember that. I have some model sheets and promo stuff that shows those
designs.
Jean is sans glasses and Capt. Nemo looks a lot more black,
>including very large lips.
Yep.
>Nadia has a whip in this version too. If Gainax had kept that bit, I'm
>sure ADV would have released the show already...
ahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I propose a new ancronym for r.a.c.m. and r.a.a.m.:
LITC--Leave It To Crowe, for all those times when David Crowe sums up volumes
with a mere zesty one-liner.
David Johnston
>
> >>Well......she looks kind of Indian to me........it's probably the mole on
> >>her forehead, but that's how it seems.......I consider her to be non-white,
> >>but I don't know if she's black or indian (and by wich I mean from India,
> >>not Native American) It seems to be simply a cosmetic reason,
> >>though......even if she is black or indian, it doesen't seem to matter much
>
> I believe near the start of the series Jean's aunt (or was it his grandmother)
> tells him that he shouldn't be inviting black girls in. She is very obviously
> prejudiced against Nadia based on her race.
As one might expect.
>
> There's also one of the episodes where the Nautilus stops on an island and
> Nemo says that race doesn't matter on the Nautilus... implying that it does
> matter elsewhere.
Of course people are reading too much into Jean's suggestion that she might hail
from Africa. Algeria is a part of Africa after all, and Algerians aren't _that_
different in skin tone from Indians.
Patrick Drazen
David Crowe wrote:
> Any others?
>
> One thought about Mihoshi. She's blond, ditzy and has a great tan. Could
> she be a stereotype of a "California girl?"
>
> --
> David "No Nickname" Crowe
I'm surprised that I'm the first to remember this one: Roger, one of the crew of
the ChaChaMaru in "Plastic Little". Comic relief, I'll grant you, but there he
is.
Patrick Drazen
who could rattle off another dozen names of African characters from the old "Leo
the Lion" tv series, but that's absurd
David Crowe
: David Crowe wrote:
: > Any others?
: >
: > One thought about Mihoshi. She's blond, ditzy and has a great tan. Could
: > she be a stereotype of a "California girl?"
: >
: > --
: > David "No Nickname" Crowe
: I'm surprised that I'm the first to remember this one: Roger, one of the crew of
: the ChaChaMaru in "Plastic Little". Comic relief, I'll grant you, but there he
: is.
That's because most people try and purge all memory of Plastic Little from
their minds...
But now that you've brought it up, the cheif engineer on the ship was also
dark-skined.
--
cas...@my-dejanews.com
David Crowe <jet...@primenet.com> wrote:
> We've had this thread before, but what the hey.
>
> Anthy Himemiya
> Miaka from Airbats (mixed black and Asian ancestry)
> Rally Vincent (Father was East Indian, mother caucasian)
> Nadia (From Atlantis, gets her looks from her mother)
> Claudia Grant
> Bowie Grant
> That kid who pilots the Griffon in Patlabor (Indian citizen)
> Cheif Todo from Bubblegum Crisis
> Lisa Vanette, his neice (Possibly from the same place as Mihoshi)
> Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius (POB listed as Australia, IIRC)
> One of the Gall Force girls.
>
> Any others?
That African woman in Crying Freeman?
Casey
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
David Johnston
>
> In article <77u8r7$292$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
> David Crowe <jet...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > We've had this thread before, but what the hey.
> >
> > Anthy Himemiya
> > Miaka from Airbats (mixed black and Asian ancestry)
> > Rally Vincent (Father was East Indian, mother caucasian)
> > Nadia (From Atlantis, gets her looks from her mother)
> > Claudia Grant
> > Bowie Grant
> > That kid who pilots the Griffon in Patlabor (Indian citizen)
> > Cheif Todo from Bubblegum Crisis
> > Lisa Vanette, his neice (Possibly from the same place as Mihoshi)
> > Kiddy Phenil from Silent Mobius (POB listed as Australia, IIRC)
> > One of the Gall Force girls.
> >
> > Any others?
>
> That African woman in Crying Freeman?
What African woman in Crying Freeman?
dot_wa...@my-dejanews.com
clearly), but IIRC Urd has darkish skin, and Sailor Pluto is most definitely
dark-skinned (in the manga, anyway).
-"Dot"
http://westwood.fortunecity.com/italian/70
http://members.xoom.com/dotchan (mirror)
Patrick Drazen
David Crowe wrote:
> Patrick Drazen <pdr...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> : David Crowe wrote:
>
> : > Any others?
> : >
> : > One thought about Mihoshi. She's blond, ditzy and has a great tan. Could
> : > she be a stereotype of a "California girl?"
> : >
> : > --
> : > David "No Nickname" Crowe
>
> : I'm surprised that I'm the first to remember this one: Roger, one of the crew of
> : the ChaChaMaru in "Plastic Little". Comic relief, I'll grant you, but there he
> : is.
>
> That's because most people try and purge all memory of Plastic Little from
> their minds...
>
> But now that you've brought it up, the cheif engineer on the ship was also
> dark-skined.
>
> David "No Nickname" Crowe
Balbo may have been a bit "swarthy", as they say, but I put that down to doing a lot
of outdoor work (or, as the name suggests, being Mediterranean, or whatever that
planet has that passes for the Mediterranean).
BTW, having darker skin used to mean in Japan that one was a farm laborer and
therefore poor. Then, western pop culture and the California Sun mentality eroded
that.
Patrick Drazen
who notes that Sailor Pluto is very dark in the manga
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
> > That African woman in Crying Freeman?
>
> What African woman in Crying Freeman?
The one that almost killed him and he got out of it by using the patented
Freeman tongue, nipple lock. 0,0!
Later...
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
C. M. Hagmaier
>
>
> Of course people are reading too much into Jean's suggestion that she
> might hail from Africa. Algeria is a part of Africa after all, and
> Algerians aren't _that_ different in skin tone from Indians.
Have you seen the Africa episodes? Nadia is supposed to look like
a subSaharan African, and she thinks of herself as such. Those episodes
are terribly stereotypical, but quite unequivocal.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Sean Cobb
The black Commanding Officer from Macross Plus.
Haruka's dark-skinned track runner friend (Elza) from Sailor Moon S
ep.106 (Even though Elza had pink hair, I think she was a black girl,
because I think her character was inspired by Flo Jo, and when she's
turned into a Daimon, she has a black woman's hairstyle).
Takenori Akagi, Haruko Akagi and Jun Uozumi from Slam Dunk (The're
fairly light-skinned, but are still clearly black. They have Japanese
names, so the're probably bi-racial Black-Japanese).
Arnold Kim
>
> I don't know if these characters actually qualify (since it's never stated
> clearly), but IIRC Urd has darkish skin, and Sailor Pluto is most definitely
> dark-skinned (in the manga, anyway).
For Urd, race isn't an issue, since she's not realy human, or even mortal.
It's like talking about the nationality of God.^_^ As for Pluto, she does
have a Japanese name, which seems to be pretty important in deciding
these matters. I mean, Usagi's Japanese, and she's got blonde hair...
Arnold Kim
korean of medium complexion
Arnold Kim
>
> Takenori Akagi, Haruko Akagi and Jun Uozumi from Slam Dunk (The're
> fairly light-skinned, but are still clearly black. They have Japanese
> names, so the're probably bi-racial Black-Japanese).
Then again, look at Akagi's sister and parents. Perhaps he's adopted.
And not quite the same thing, but later on on some of the covers,
Hanamichi Sakuragi looks like the spitting image of Dennis Rodman.
Arnold Kim
owns all 31 vols. of Slam Dunk
cas...@my-dejanews.com
> David Johnston wrote:
>
> > > That African woman in Crying Freeman?
> >
> > What African woman in Crying Freeman?
>
> The one that almost killed him and he got out of it by using the patented
> Freeman tongue, nipple lock. 0,0!
LOL
Yeah, that one. IIRC her seiyuu even spoke Japanese with a foreign (African?)
accent.
Casey
Bryth27
>Hanamichi Sakuragi looks like the spitting image of Dennis Rodman.
>
Heaven help him then, because The Worm is ONE UGLY MOTHER! How Carmen Electra
can even bear to look at him I'll never know.
Ijou.
Big Bry
David Crowe
: >And not quite the same thing, but later on on some of the covers,
: >
: Heaven help him then, because The Worm is ONE UGLY MOTHER! How Carmen Electra
: can even bear to look at him I'll never know.
Given the circumstances of their wedding, I suspect alcohol plays a large
part...
--