[Semi-OT] Inuyasha ending SPOILERS
Captain Nerd
So, they scanlated and released the final chapter of the Inuyasha
manga, chapter 558. I have to say, I read nothing of the manga
before this, and followed the Inuyasha anime (see, it's sort of
on topic!) until it stopped, but I have to say, this ending (last
chapter was basically the ending, with 558 being the denouement)
was a pleasant surprise, in that...
SPOILER SPACE for them as is interested
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Takahashi-san actually *ends* the story! And in a most satisfying
way, I have to say, what with Kagome finally purifying the jewel,
and everyone ending up together that should have been. 558 happens
3 years after the jewel was purified and the well closed with
Kagome in the future and Inuyasha in the past, Inuyasha having left
her in the future to be with "the others who loved her too", but
he's been going back to the well every three days for 3 years.
He's been helping Miroku in eliminating youkai, and babysitting for
Miroku and Sango's kids(!) the third of whom is born in this chapter.
Meanwhile, life is going forward with the other characters, and
Kagome is graduating high school and wishing at the well. While
she's standing there crying, her mother comes to comfort her, and
she sees the sky in the well. So, Kagome goes back into the past,
and she and Inuyasha get married, Kagome learning from Kaede how to
make medicines and such. The ending two page panel is just great,
and it's nice to see Takahashi-san actually end a story. I don't
think it would be possible to animate the whole series, but I might
not mind reading the intervening manga, now that I know it ends.
Cap.
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Travers Naran
Kagome is dressed an awful lot like Kikyo. ;-)
And to resurrect that awful flame war I had with fish-eyed miko:
Sesshomaru still seems kind of sweet on Rin. ;-)
But I'm worried: the threat of a new Takahashi series. >_<;
--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
Relic
Ah, beat me to it. But yeah, it was quite the shocker to see the
story end properly (tho' some may wonder, "Where the hell is
Koga?", but he was taken out of the series several volumes ago).
Less like UY and Ranma and more like MI. Very nicely done, and
it's gonna be a long wait til' the last tankobon comes out in
Japan (and at Viz'z'ziz ^_^ current rate, it's gonna be like
8 years before people see the end through them) for me to grab.
Fish Eye no Miko
Wow.. that was fast...
What happened to Kohaku? And Naraku, for that matter?
> Meanwhile, life is going forward with the other characters, and
> Kagome is graduating high school and wishing at the well. While
> she's standing there crying, her mother comes to comfort her, and
> she sees the sky in the well. So, Kagome goes back into the past,
> and she and Inuyasha get married,
Awww...
> Kagome learning from Kaede how to make medicines and such.
> The ending two page panel is just great, and it's nice to see
> Takahashi-san actually end a story.
Yeah, I wondered if it would actually end, as supposed to just
stopping.
> I don't think it would be possible to animate the whole series, but I
> might not mind reading the intervening manga, now that I know it ends.
Maybe they could do an OVA?
Catherine Johnson.
Lee Ratner
ended. The ending is a bit like the ending of Fire Tripper.
Derek Janssen
Well, she *has* actually been known to do it, before. Once.
Maison Ikkoku, think it was.
(And didn't wimp out at the last panels like she did with UY and Ranma...)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Blade
"Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
news:cptnerd-463F48...@news.giganews.com...
(roll eyes)
Yes, because a story that had a continuing plotline from the first issue to
the last one was certainly not going to end.
-
Blade
Inu-Yasha
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:kh47k.68$Wr.54@trndny04...
Give her a little credit, Takahashi may have some attachment to her
creations, and kind of hate to see them go (not from the money standpoint
either).
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@verizon.net
Galen
And to Kikyu?
>
Lee Ratner
it is necessary for short
stories.
Captain Nerd
Galen <ga...@nekomimicon.net> wrote:
Apparently they finally defeated Naraku for good. Kohaku is in
training to be a taijiya and riding Kilala. Rin is living
with Kaede to learn how to be able to return to a human village,
but Sesshoumaru still visits. Kagome gets a good dig into him
by calling him "brother-in-law" when she sees him. No mention
of Kikyu.
Travers Naran
Kohaku is saved and is training to become a demon slayer.
What happened to Naraku was the previous dozen chapters or so. It was a
joint effort resulting in Naraku's death, and a final revelation of what
Naraku's real wish for the Shikon was (to be with Kikyo forever).
Then we find out what the Shikon jewel was really trying to do with
Kagome. Obviously, Inuyasha saves her from the jewel.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
Considering that shard was the only thing keeping him alive, there
should be quite the story just there!
--
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David Johnston
Logically Kikyu should be finally dead again. Her reason for
remaining is over.
Megane
Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But I'm worried: the threat of a new Takahashi series. >_<;
VERY NOOO!
Is it time to start taking bets on many years will _that_ one go on?
Captain Nerd
David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
Yep, the only question is how and why... are two questions, how, why
and when... are *three* questions... Let me start again.
How, why and when Kikyu finally died is probably somewhere in the
50 or so volumes of the takubon.
Captain Nerd
<megane#fanboy.net-8E686...@news.newsreader.com>,
Megane <megane#fanbo...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
Last statistic I heard was that the average life expectancy for
Japanese women is about 83 years...
So how old is Takahashi-sensei?
^====^
Derek Janssen
So, Rumiko *didn't* stop caring, period, halfway through Ranma 1/2?
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Blade
"Megane" <megane#fanbo...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:megane%23fanboy.net-8E68...@news.newsreader.com...
As long as the richest woman in Japan and most popular female comic artist
in the world wants it to?
-
Blade
Blade
If she did, she should stop caring about all her stuff right away,
considering how much better the second half of Ranma 1/2 was than the first
half.
-
Blade
Inu-Yasha
creations, i.e. InuYasha, and Mermaid Scar. I think she put a lot of love
into Maison Ikkoku, but still felt it should be ended happily for her
readers sake. IMHO of course.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
NGY, 2 days
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@verizon.net
Inu-Yasha
Also, I think she has an ability to end true stories, I.e. Maison Ikkoku,
and InuYasha (even Mermaid Scar had an ending sort of), but Ranma and Urusei
Yatsura were to me anyway farces, and probably could not be ended properly
or satisfactorily. Again IMHO of course.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
NGY, 2 days left
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@verizon.net
Aje RavenStar
"Inu-Yasha" <tjar...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:485d778a$0$3362$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
You may have a good point there (fondly recalling the ending of Monty Python
and the Holy Grail and the resulting confusion in the theater...)
Relic
> In article
> <megane#fanboy.net-8E686...@news.newsreader.com>,
> Megane <megane#fanbo...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> In article <Hk07k.389$yg7.176@edtnps82>,
>> Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But I'm worried: the threat of a new Takahashi series. >_<;
>> VERY NOOO!
>>
>> Is it time to start taking bets on many years will _that_ one go on?
>
> Last statistic I heard was that the average life expectancy for
> Japanese women is about 83 years...
>
> So how old is Takahashi-sensei?
>
> ^====^
>
> Cap.
>
I believe she should be 51 this year.
Relic
chapter however).
Captain Nerd
Relic <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote:
So, she could do 3 more Inuyasha-length series, concievable.
Actually it would be nice to know that she could still be making
manga in the year 2030 (an auspicious year for those in the know).
Cap.
(... and we're only 13 years way from "Sealab 2021"...)
Travers Naran
>
> Actually it would be nice to know that she could still be making
> manga in the year 2030 (an auspicious year for those in the know).
OK, I admit it: What's so auspicious about 2030?
Derek Janssen
>>
>>Well, she *has* actually been known to do it, before. Once.
>>Maison Ikkoku, think it was.
>>
>>(And didn't wimp out at the last panels like she did with UY and Ranma...)
>
> Also, I think she has an ability to end true stories, I.e. Maison Ikkoku,
> and InuYasha (even Mermaid Scar had an ending sort of), but Ranma and Urusei
> Yatsura were to me anyway farces, and probably could not be ended properly
> or satisfactorily. Again IMHO of course.
UY and Ranma *were* ended satisfactorily, with almost the exact same
ending ("UY: Final Chapter", Ranma returns to Jusenkyo):
Both resolved their central concerns *and* the characters relationships,
everything seemed happy until the old rivals pressed their old grudges
again in the last panel, and the chase continued!...Here we go again,
folks <hyuck!> :-P
MI was a linear story with a goal and had a linear ending--
Farce may not need a linear ending, just don't backslide when you want
to create the illusion of giving it one.
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Captain Nerd
Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Captain Nerd wrote:
> >
> > Actually it would be nice to know that she could still be making
> > manga in the year 2030 (an auspicious year for those in the know).
>
> OK, I admit it: What's so auspicious about 2030?
It's the year that Section 9 is founded, and we get to see
kick-ass cyberbabes fall off buildings wearing skin-tight
optical camouflage.
^====^
Cap.
(... of course, if I figure the ages right, the Major should be
getting her first prosthetic body about two or three years
from now (looks around for technology) well, darn ...)
Travers Naran
> In article <zeh7k.469$yg7.348@edtnps82>,
> Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Captain Nerd wrote:
>>> Actually it would be nice to know that she could still be making
>>> manga in the year 2030 (an auspicious year for those in the know).
>> OK, I admit it: What's so auspicious about 2030?
>
> It's the year that Section 9 is founded, and we get to see
> kick-ass cyberbabes fall off buildings wearing skin-tight
> optical camouflage.
>
> ^====^
>
> Cap.
> (... of course, if I figure the ages right, the Major should be
> getting her first prosthetic body about two or three years
> from now (looks around for technology) well, darn ...)
You have to wait until she becomes of age, Captain. :-P
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
Why do sacred jewels always trying to do schoolgirls?
Laters. =)
Stan
--
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Captain Nerd
Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Captain Nerd wrote:
> > In article <zeh7k.469$yg7.348@edtnps82>,
> > Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Captain Nerd wrote:
> >>> Actually it would be nice to know that she could still be making
> >>> manga in the year 2030 (an auspicious year for those in the know).
> >> OK, I admit it: What's so auspicious about 2030?
> >
> > It's the year that Section 9 is founded, and we get to see
> > kick-ass cyberbabes fall off buildings wearing skin-tight
> > optical camouflage.
> >
> > ^====^
> >
> > Cap.
> > (... of course, if I figure the ages right, the Major should be
> > getting her first prosthetic body about two or three years
> > from now (looks around for technology) well, darn ...)
>
> You have to wait until she becomes of age, Captain. :-P
Well, I should be Aramaki's age by then, presuming I'm still
around...
But, no prosthetic bodies, yet, and no cyberbrains, dangit.
That's why I was looking around for the tech. I want to be
somewhat more than a drooling idiot by then (which means I
just want to maintain where I am, brainwise).
Cap.
Freezer
>
> "Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
> news:cptnerd-463F48...@news.giganews.com...
> (roll eyes)
>
> Yes, because a story that had a continuing plotline from the first
> issue to the last one was certainly not going to end.
You must admit that Takahashi's continuing series - up to now with
one exception - didn't end so much as stop.
--
My name is:
____ _
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And my anti-drug is porn.
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Freezer
> As long as the richest woman in Japan and most popular female
> comic artist in the world wants it to?
Or until the fans of said artist put away their wallets and cry as one
"QUIT IT!"
Blade
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9AC520B6411B0f...@194.177.96.26...
I must admit no such thing.
1) As I just pointed out, Inuyasha had a continuing plotline that ran from
its first issue to its (presumable) second-last. That's completely unlike
her other series', and therefore demands a definitive ending. It is no
surprise it got one, especially since she started writing out
side-characters like Kagura and Kikyo awhile ago.
2) I can't speak for UY. Maison Ikkoku had an ending, and so did Ranma,
which wrapped the major ongoing plotline (Nodoka), set the major rivals up
with love interests, had a dramatic final battle against a god, and had
Ranma admit he loved Akane. So that would be three out of four "continuing
series'" with an ending. One Pound Gospel, which she just did irregularly, I
wouldn't count, and I haven't read most of Mermaid Saga but believe it to
basically be a set of short stories anyway.
-
Blade
Blade
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
> If I don't respond to this Blade post, the terrorists win.
>
>> As long as the richest woman in Japan and most popular female
>> comic artist in the world wants it to?
>
> Or until the fans of said artist put away their wallets and cry as one
> "QUIT IT!"
See above. Also see how much money Inuyasha made. It's easily the most
popular series she did.
-
Blade
The Wanderer
> "Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
>> You must admit that Takahashi's continuing series - up to now with
>> one exception - didn't end so much as stop.
>
> I must admit no such thing.
>
> 1) As I just pointed out, Inuyasha had a continuing plotline that ran
> from its first issue to its (presumable) second-last. That's
> completely unlike her other series', and therefore demands a
> definitive ending. It is no surprise it got one, especially since she
> started writing out side-characters like Kagura and Kikyo awhile ago.
>
> 2) I can't speak for UY. Maison Ikkoku had an ending, and so did
> Ranma, which wrapped the major ongoing plotline (Nodoka), set the
> major rivals up with love interests, had a dramatic final battle
> against a god, and had Ranma admit he loved Akane. So that would be
> three out of four "continuing series'" with an ending. One Pound
> Gospel, which she just did irregularly, I wouldn't count, and I
> haven't read most of Mermaid Saga but believe it to basically be a
> set of short stories anyway.
I don't think most people would agree that Ranma got an ending, or at
least not a satisfactory one. Yes, ending with the events as you
describe them would probably be satisfactory, but the fact is that the
series did *not* end there; things broke down again into Standard Chaos
and General Brouhaha after those events and right before the end, and
that does not make for a satisfactory ending - or indeed a true ending
at all - in many people's minds.
I can't really address the others, as I'm not greatly familiar with any
of them even by fanfic much less by the original source material.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
Relic
> In article <cOf7k.13892$Ri....@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com>,
> Relic <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>> Captain Nerd wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <megane#fanboy.net-8E686...@news.newsreader.com>,
>>> Megane <megane#fanbo...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <Hk07k.389$yg7.176@edtnps82>,
>>>> Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But I'm worried: the threat of a new Takahashi series. >_<;
>>>> VERY NOOO!
>>>>
>>>> Is it time to start taking bets on many years will _that_ one go on?
>>> Last statistic I heard was that the average life expectancy for
>>> Japanese women is about 83 years...
>>>
>>> So how old is Takahashi-sensei?
>>>
>>> ^====^
>>>
>>> Cap.
>>>
>> I believe she should be 51 this year.
>
> So, she could do 3 more Inuyasha-length series, concievable.
>
> Actually it would be nice to know that she could still be making
> manga in the year 2030 (an auspicious year for those in the know).
>
> Cap.
> (... and we're only 13 years way from "Sealab 2021"...)
>
I wouldn't be surprised if she did do manga in her 80s (Shigeru Mizuki,
creator of Ge Ge Ge no Kitaro, I recall is still doing manga (and a
museum dedicated to youkai) and he's got to be in his 80s (he lost his
arm while on the Solomon Islands during WWII). So I wouldn't put it
past her.
Fish Eye no Miko
> 2) I can't speak for UY. Maison Ikkoku had an ending, and so did Ranma,
> which wrapped the major ongoing plotline (Nodoka), set the major rivals up
> with love interests,
If that's true, why did some of the crash the wedding? Surely if they
were happy with these "love interests", they would have let Ramna and
Akane get married in peace, ne? So, clearly there's a problem there
somewhere.
Catherine Johnson.
David Johnston
Well let's have a look at the situation as of the ending:
Ryoga: Handled.
Kodachi: There will never be a resolution for Kodachi of course.
She'll still be harassing Ranma when he's Genma's age, and the next
generation of Kunos will be messing with the next generation of
Saotome-Tendos. That's just the way it is.
Ukyou: The problem with Ukyou is that her issues are going to be
resolved by a process of gradual erosion over the course of the next
years. The characters would actually have to start aging in real time
to finish with Ukyou.
Shampoo: Lum-like Shampoo was more popular in Japan than she was in
North America. Showing her finally on the bus would have enraged her
shippers. But apart from that, it's a tricky situation since Shampoo
has to somehow resolve her obligation in a way that lets her keep her
status with her people. In theory the answer would be marry Shampoo,
with the understanding that she would then divorce Ranma. Obviously
if that was going to happen, it couldn't happen soon. Everybody would
have to do a lot of growing up first. Once again, you need real time
aging.
Blade
"The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XL-dnbsS8PRI0sPV...@comcast.com...
All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get married doesn't
really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane didn't get married because
they're too young and had unresolved issues. The story still made clear they
would. Walking off into the sunset (or sunrise) is a time-honoured classic
ending, whether people like it or not.
I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma; contrarily,
saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly. It wrapped up
everything, had a dramatic final battle, had the hero admit love to the
heroine, set up the rivals with love interests, and then the protagonists
ran off into the sunrise together. That's an ending. "Satisfactory" is
completely subjective.
-
Blade
Blade
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:df3e44a7-ff81-4128...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Set up the major rivals with love interests. Their issues are not resolved
yet, neither are Ranma or Akane's (which is why they argued). That doesn't
change that the rivals were indeed set up with love interests, and you'd
have to be basically ignoring blatent authorial intent to say otherwise.
-
Blade
Freezer
>
> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:XL-dnbsS8PRI0sPV...@comcast.com...
>
>> I don't think most people would agree that Ranma got an ending,
>> or at least not a satisfactory one. Yes, ending with the events
>> as you describe them would probably be satisfactory, but the fact
>> is that the series did *not* end there; things broke down again
>> into Standard Chaos and General Brouhaha after those events and
>> right before the end, and that does not make for a satisfactory
>> ending - or indeed a true ending at all - in many people's minds.
>
> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get
> married doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane
> didn't get married because they're too young and had unresolved
> issues. The story still made clear they would. Walking off into
> the sunset (or sunrise) is a time-honoured classic ending, whether
> people like it or not.
>
> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly. It
> wrapped up everything, had a dramatic final battle, had the hero
> admit love to the heroine, set up the rivals with love interests,
> and then the protagonists ran off into the sunrise together.
> That's an ending. "Satisfactory" is completely subjective.
That's your take, which many agree with. I - and many others -
consider the manga ending one big reset button. Nothing resolved, no
understandings reached, nothing that says things wouldn't go right
back to "RANMA NO BAKA" status quo. There's support for both
interpretations, so calling one side "silly" is being a bit
defensive, IMHO.
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote in messagenews:df3e44a7-ff81-4128...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
So... how, exactly, is this an "ending"?
Catherine Johnson.
The Wanderer
Walking off into the sunset is one thing.
Reverting back to an apparent approximation of the status quo, which
seems to be at least what many people think happened, is quite another.
> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly. It
> wrapped up everything,
And then unwrapped some of it again.
> had a dramatic final battle, had the hero admit love to the heroine,
Last I checked, there was still no small amount of dispute whether
anyone but Ranma actually heard him say that...
> set up the rivals with love interests,
And then had (some of) them go right back and do the same kind of things
they had been doing before.
Not to mention that there is still significant dispute whether some at
least of those rivals actually *were* "set up with" the alternate love
interests - Takahashi almost unquestionably intended for it to be the
case, but many people don't seem to think that it had reached that point
by the time things broke off.
> and then the protagonists ran off into the sunrise together. That's
> an ending. "Satisfactory" is completely subjective.
Of course it's subjective. That's not (or, alternatively, is part of)
the point.
Fish Eye no Miko
> "The Wanderer" <inversepara...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:XL-dnbsS8PRI0sPV...@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> > Blade wrote:
>
> >> "Freezer" <freeze...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
And God forbid Takahashi spend any of the manga's 38 volumes resolving
them.
> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma; contrarily,
> saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly.[...], set up the rivals with
> love interests,
Yet some of them were clearly NOT "set up" with them or why would that
try to stop the wedding?
Catherine Johnson.
Blade
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
There hadn't been a "RANMA NO BAKA" status quo in the manga since about
volume 6. Shit was resolved and understandings reached throughout the whole
series. It's even sillier to suggest there wasn't than to suggest there was
no ending... or do you think that the Mousse in Volume 10 would have
rejected a chance to have Shampoo as his love slave, and then saved Ranma's
life?
There's no "support" for the interpretation that there was a non-ending
except for creative new definitions of what constitutes an ending.
Once again, cool with you not liking it. But calling it a non-ending is
silly. Ranma and Akane don't have to get married and screw to end their
story, and it is unlikely they were ever intended to.
-
Blade
Blade
So the only thing you accept as an ending is when everything is wrapped up
with no loose ends (as opposed to Ranma, where everything important was
wrapped up)? I guess not a lot of endings are going to satisfy you, then?
I can imagine people booing at the end of Romeo and Juliet because we
haven't figured out how the Prince is going to settle all that family
in-fighting.
-
Blade
Blade
What exactly do you think is the "status quo"? Do you think that you can't
have an ending unless Shampoo is never again going to attempt to molest
Ranma? Why?
>> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
>> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly. It
>> wrapped up everything,
>
> And then unwrapped some of it again.
What exactly did it undo?
>> had a dramatic final battle, had the hero admit love to the heroine,
>
> Last I checked, there was still no small amount of dispute whether
> anyone but Ranma actually heard him say that...
Akane says she heard him say that. Anyone who disputes it simply hasn't read
the series, or does not remember it very well.
>> set up the rivals with love interests,
>
> And then had (some of) them go right back and do the same kind of things
> they had been doing before.
So?
> Not to mention that there is still significant dispute whether some at
> least of those rivals actually *were* "set up with" the alternate love
> interests - Takahashi almost unquestionably intended for it to be the
> case, but many people don't seem to think that it had reached that point
> by the time things broke off.
They were set up with in the sense that they have alternate love interests
that are clearly authorially intended to end up with them. A lot of people
(myself included) are actually quite happy Takahashi didn't really push them
into other relationships as far as she pushed Ryouga. Once again, why is
"Shampoo will never molest Ranma again" so important to making it an
"ending"? The story isn't about Shampoo. She's a side-character. The story
is about Ranma, and to a lesser extent Akane. Ranma's story was written,
Ranma's issues were addressed, Ranma and Akane ran off into the sunrise
together. The end.
I would like you to list, say, half a dozen (to ensure I've seen a few)
things you consider to have a "satisfactory ending". Without a shadow of a
doubt, I'm going to find you loose ends and side characters who do not have
all their problems and issues wrapped up. By your standards, I would then be
able to declare them endingless.
>> and then the protagonists ran off into the sunrise together. That's
>> an ending. "Satisfactory" is completely subjective.
>
> Of course it's subjective. That's not (or, alternatively, is part of)
> the point.
No, it isn't part of the point at all. If you wish to say "whether a story
has an ending or not is inherently subjective", then say so, and do not beat
around the bush trying to pretend I said that when I quite clearly said the
opposite.
You're wrong, no matter how you want to put it. At the most literal level,
Ranma 1/2 has an ending because it ended (deliberately, no less). On no
level are you ever going to have a defensible point other than "I don't like
it, so it's not an ending". I have no issues with you not liking it; there's
parts of it I'm not too keen on myself (and there's parts of the Inuyasha
ending I'm not too keen on from what I've heard, as well). Disliking it is
cool. Saying it's "not an ending" because you dislike it - or because you
think it didn't fully wrap up the life's problems of any given character -
is incorrect.
-
Blade
Blade
She did. Ranma and Akane enjoy hanging out together, do so frequently,
rarely argue unless they're being shoved into it by other characters, have
no interest in other people, and were willing to get married. None of that
was true in Volume 1.
I remain puzzled by the feeling of some people that if they didn't get
married and have sex, somehow their relationship wasn't resolved. Maison
Ikkoku did that, because Maison Ikkoku was a story about adults. Ranma and
Akane aren't, and quite frankly it would have been very bad for them to be
shoved together into marriage at age 16 by their parents. In fact, the
entire series shows that the worst thing for their relationship was
inevitably their being shoved together, and they were always happiest when
they naturally grew together instead - just like they're doing as they run
off together in the last panel.
>> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma; contrarily,
>> saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly.[...], set up the
>> rivals with
>> love interests,
>
> Yet some of them were clearly NOT "set up" with them or why would that
> try to stop the wedding?
So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love interest?
Or are you saying the series would somehow have benefitted from spending ten
volumes centreing on each love interest in turn and believably dousing their
interest in Ranma/Akane, despite the fact this would be a complete stylistic
departure from everything it had been up until now? The story's about Ranma,
not Ukyou. She was fobbed off on someone else and that's pretty much it for
her part in the story.
-
Blade
paranormalized
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote in messagenews:36ac8afc-9484-42c2...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Blade, when I found out about the 'ending' of Ranma, I stopped buying
the Viz releases, and stopped looking into the series altogether. You
can argue all you want, but a lot of people who liked the series
before found the 'ending' to take away from the rest of the work.
You're not going to get people to like the way Ranma turned out, and
all you do is protest a point of semantics, and do little for the
aesthetics.
People may exaggerate when they say there is *no* ending, but they
have an expectation that a series of, what, 38 volumes? Has more of an
ending than advancing a relationship 6-12 months. By your very
admission, they are still the same age they started at, so Takahashi
stuck 38 volumes into 1 year, tops. That's a development problem of
substantial proportions...
BTW, what is your opinion of the 'timeskip' pages at the end of some
relationship manga, showing marriage/relationships at some later
date? Are you going to praise Ranma and condemn Inuyasha? Or is a
timeskip somehow appropriate in one, and not the other?
Jonathan Fisher
wondering if he has hotbuttons as prominent as Blade's...
Freezer
> There's no "support" for the interpretation that there was a
> non-ending except for creative new definitions of what constitutes
> an ending.
>
I'm sorry, but a lack of resolution, or even real progress, on the
comic's central plot (Ranma and Akane's relationship) is the very
definition of "non-ending".
Blade
"paranormalized" <paranor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e705d479-4cda-4abe...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 23, 6:38 am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote in
>> messagenews:36ac8afc-9484-42c2...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
So, you never actually read it, then?
> can argue all you want, but a lot of people who liked the series
> before found the 'ending' to take away from the rest of the work.
> You're not going to get people to like the way Ranma turned out, and
> all you do is protest a point of semantics, and do little for the
> aesthetics.
I don't really give a flying rat's arse whether people like it or not,
believe it or not. In fact, I don't recall ever saying I liked it. Do you?
> People may exaggerate when they say there is *no* ending, but they
Awesome, we're in agreement.
> have an expectation that a series of, what, 38 volumes? Has more of an
> ending than advancing a relationship 6-12 months. By your very
Even though, you know, the series took 12 months?
> admission, they are still the same age they started at, so Takahashi
> stuck 38 volumes into 1 year, tops. That's a development problem of
> substantial proportions...
Or it's an episodic comedy that occured in the space of about a year, and
had appropriate levels of character development for that year.
> BTW, what is your opinion of the 'timeskip' pages at the end of some
> relationship manga, showing marriage/relationships at some later
> date? Are you going to praise Ranma and condemn Inuyasha? Or is a
> timeskip somehow appropriate in one, and not the other?
I find them rather hokey and contrived, except in rare circumstances.
Inuyasha likely wouldn't be one of those circumstances where I think it
would be appropriate, but not having read it I make no definitive judgements
on it.
-
Blade
Blade
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
> If I don't respond to this Blade post, the terrorists win.
>
>> There's no "support" for the interpretation that there was a
>> non-ending except for creative new definitions of what constitutes
>> an ending.
>>
>
> I'm sorry, but a lack of resolution, or even real progress, on the
> comic's central plot (Ranma and Akane's relationship) is the very
> definition of "non-ending".
So, in your opinion, in the first issue of the manga Ranma was willing to
confess his love to Akane and get married?
Also, get a new dictionary.
-
Blade
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get married
> >> doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane didn't get
> >> married because they're too young and had unresolved issues.
>
> > And God forbid Takahashi spend any of the manga's 38 volumes
> > resolving them.
>
> She did. Ranma and Akane enjoy hanging out together, do so frequently,
> rarely argue unless they're being shoved into it by other characters, have
> no interest in other people, and were willing to get married. None of that
> was true in Volume 1.
Ok, fair enough.
> I remain puzzled by the feeling of some people that if they didn't get
> married and have sex, somehow their relationship wasn't resolved.
Did I say this? I think one of the thing that annoys people is Why
having th wedding tease AT ALL if she had no intention of them getting
married? And the fact that the wedding stopped because there are
other people who are interested in Ramna is annoying, why not resolve
that as well?
> Maison Ikkoku did that, because Maison Ikkoku was a story about adults. Ranma and
> Akane aren't, and quite frankly it would have been very bad for them to be
> shoved together into marriage at age 16 by their parents.
By I thought you said that by this point, THEY liked being together,
and weren't interested in anyone else?
Besides, oif time progressed at any logical fashion in this manga,
they would be adults by now (how long did it take for Goue to be an
adult in DB?)
> In fact, the entire series shows that the worst thing for their relationship
> was inevitably their being shoved together,
Agaim, I thought they were together by choice now?
> and they were always happiest when they naturally grew
> together instead - just like they're doing as they run off
> together in the last panel.
Yeah, 16 year-olds running off together is a great idea!
> >> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
> >> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly.[...],
> >> set up the rivals with love interests,
>
> > Yet some of them were clearly NOT "set up" with them or why would that
> > try to stop the wedding?
>
> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
> interest?
Again, if she were so interested in someone else, why break up the
wedding? I've asked this question twice now, and you haven't answered
either time.
> Or are you saying the series would somehow have benefitted from spending ten
> volumes centreing on each love interest in turn and believably dousing their
> interest in Ranma/Akane,
Don't put words in my mouth, Blade. Why the hell would it have to
take that long? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't. You're just saying it
would to make what I said sound really unreasonable. It's called a
strawman, and it's a really bad debating technique.
> despite the fact this would be a complete stylistic departure from everything
> it had been up until now? The story's about Ranma, not Ukyou.
Part of Ranma's story is about the people who are interested in him.
By resolving that, you've dealt with part of Ramna's story.
> She was fobbed off on someone else
Again, clearly NOT, or she wouldn't have tried to stop the wedding.
Catherine Johnson.
Freezer
>
> "Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9AC678F7CB421f...@194.177.96.26...
>> If I don't respond to this Blade post, the terrorists win.
>>
>>> There's no "support" for the interpretation that there was a
>>> non-ending except for creative new definitions of what
>>> constitutes an ending.
>>>
>>
>> I'm sorry, but a lack of resolution, or even real progress, on
>> the comic's central plot (Ranma and Akane's relationship) is the
>> very definition of "non-ending".
>
> So, in your opinion, in the first issue of the manga Ranma was
> willing to confess his love to Akane and get married?
First. No.
A hint that neither are the same stubborn jackasses they were in Vol. 1
somwhere aroudn Vol. 30 or so? I don't think that's so much to ask.
Freezer
> First. No.
>
> A hint that neither are the same stubborn jackasses they were in
> Vol. 1 somwhere aroudn Vol. 30 or so? I don't think that's so
> much to ask.
Or more accurately: That any hint of compromise, maturity, or
acknowledgement that things have changed since the beginning simply
won't be ignored by the next volume (or by the next page).
Blade
> On Jun 23, 4:56 am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get married
>> >> doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane didn't get
>> >> married because they're too young and had unresolved issues.
>>
>> > And God forbid Takahashi spend any of the manga's 38 volumes
>> > resolving them.
>>
>> She did. Ranma and Akane enjoy hanging out together, do so frequently,
>> rarely argue unless they're being shoved into it by other characters,
>> have
>> no interest in other people, and were willing to get married. None of
>> that
>> was true in Volume 1.
>
> Ok, fair enough.
>
>> I remain puzzled by the feeling of some people that if they didn't get
>> married and have sex, somehow their relationship wasn't resolved.
>
> Did I say this? I think one of the thing that annoys people is Why
> having th wedding tease AT ALL if she had no intention of them getting
There was another wedding tease right at the beginning of the Phoenix
Mountain arc. And numerous other times in the series, going back to issue
one.
> married? And the fact that the wedding stopped because there are
> other people who are interested in Ramna is annoying, why not resolve
> that as well?
Because it was completely impossible to resolve that within the confines of
the story she told, and would have been a complete thematic and stylistic
departure to do so?
>> Maison Ikkoku did that, because Maison Ikkoku was a story about adults.
>> Ranma and
>> Akane aren't, and quite frankly it would have been very bad for them to
>> be
>> shoved together into marriage at age 16 by their parents.
>
> By I thought you said that by this point, THEY liked being together,
> and weren't interested in anyone else?
Yep. So what? That means they have to get married at age 16, because...?
> Besides, oif time progressed at any logical fashion in this manga,
> they would be adults by now (how long did it take for Goue to be an
> adult in DB?)
Sorry, "Goue"? I freely admit I think it's awesome Dragonball actually has
time pass, but I'm not sure why exactly Ranma taking place in Riverdale time
is directly related to its ending.
>> In fact, the entire series shows that the worst thing for their
>> relationship
>> was inevitably their being shoved together,
>
> Agaim, I thought they were together by choice now?
They are. Hence, they go off together. They did not, however, go through
with the marriage outside agencies forced upon them (even though they were
actually willing to).
>> and they were always happiest when they naturally grew
>> together instead - just like they're doing as they run off
>> together in the last panel.
>
> Yeah, 16 year-olds running off together is a great idea!
Well, I don't think their getting married would be. Running off to school
together doesn't seem so bad, though.
>> >> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
>> >> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly.[...],
>> >> set up the rivals with love interests,
>>
>> > Yet some of them were clearly NOT "set up" with them or why would that
>> > try to stop the wedding?
>>
>> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>> interest?
>
> Again, if she were so interested in someone else, why break up the
> wedding? I've asked this question twice now, and you haven't answered
> either time.
So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love interest?
The answer to my question answers yours. And I think you know that.
>> Or are you saying the series would somehow have benefitted from spending
>> ten
>> volumes centreing on each love interest in turn and believably dousing
>> their
>> interest in Ranma/Akane,
>
> Don't put words in my mouth, Blade. Why the hell would it have to
> take that long? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't. You're just saying it
> would to make what I said sound really unreasonable. It's called a
> strawman, and it's a really bad debating technique.
Of course it would take that long. There is no realistic way to make Ukyou,
Shampoo, Kodachi, Kunou, Gosunkugi and arguably Ryouga give up on their
doomed love interests in the space of one story. Takahashi did spend nearly
ten volumes repeatedly touching on getting Ryouga hooked up with Akari, and
that has only reached "He likes both of them but guiltily realises Akari is
more available to him" by the end of the story. I am actually probably
understating ten volumes - I believe it would have taken probably twice that
long to actually write every love interest completely out of the picture in
a believable fashion that didn't completely violate the sort of the story
Ranma 1/2 is (ie, an episodic comedy that is focused exclusively on Ranma
Saotome).
It is unreasonable to expect that Takahashi could have made Shampoo not
crash the wedding unless she started laying the groundwork ten volumes
before. Probably more. Moreover, I find that whether or not they crash the
wedding is completely unrelated to whether it's an "ending", inasmuch as all
the above characters are disposable sideshows to the story of Ranma Saotome.
>> despite the fact this would be a complete stylistic departure from
>> everything
>> it had been up until now? The story's about Ranma, not Ukyou.
>
> Part of Ranma's story is about the people who are interested in him.
No, I don't really think so. Everyone I mentioned above vanishes for volumes
at a time and it affects the story not a whit. If Takahashi had completely
forgotten to include Gosunkugi in the last issue, most people wouldn't have
even found it strange.
> By resolving that, you've dealt with part of Ramna's story.
Why? Ranma doesn't think about or care about what Ukyou thinks. He never for
one moment stops to think about Ukyou's feelings when deciding to marry
Akane. Nor does Akane give any consideration to Kunou's feelings. If any of
the above characters had been dropped ala Dr. Tofu twenty volumes before, it
would not really have significantly changed the series. They are ultimately
unimportant to the story that was being told, their significance extant only
in how they affect Ranma (and to a lesser extent, Akane). The story never
revolves around how much Ukyou loves Ranma. Never. Saying it's not finished
unless it resolves that is like saying it's not finished unless it resolves
who Picolet Chardin's bride is going to be.
>> She was fobbed off on someone else
>
> Again, clearly NOT, or she wouldn't have tried to stop the wedding.
So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love interest?
-
Blade
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote:
Cutting stuff cuz I'm just not in the mood to deal with it all.
> >> >> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
> >> >> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly.[...],
> >> >> set up the rivals with love interests,
>
> >> > Yet some of them were clearly NOT "set up" with them or why would that
> >> > try to stop the wedding?
>
> >> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
> >> interest?
>
> > Again, if she were so interested in someone else, why break up the
> > wedding? I've asked this question twice now, and you haven't answered
> > either time.
>
> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love interest?
No, I'm saying exactly what I'm saying (wow, imagine that), and you're
not answering me:
If Takahashi "set up the rivals with love interests," why are ANY of
them trying to stop the wedding?
If you refuse to actually answer this question again, this discussion
is over.
> The answer to my question answers yours.
So, the answer is no, then? Cuz it he was, it seems like she wouldn't
have tried to stop the wedding. Ah, wait, was Ukyo not one of those
who tried to stop the wedding? I'll admit I don't recall who all was
involved.
If so, that still leaves those who did, and you haven't answered that
question about all of them.
> And I think you know that.
And I think you shouldn't be telling me what I think. Or what I'm
saying, for that matter.
> >> Or are you saying the series would somehow have benefitted from
> >> spending ten volumes centreing on each love interest in turn and
> >> believably dousing their interest in Ranma/Akane,
>>
> > Don't put words in my mouth, Blade. Why the hell would it have to
> > take that long? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't. You're just saying it
> > would to make what I said sound really unreasonable. It's called a
> > strawman, and it's a really bad debating technique.
>
> Of course it would take that long. There is no realistic way to make Ukyou,
> Shampoo, Kodachi, Kunou, Gosunkugi and arguably Ryouga give up on their
> doomed love interests in the space of one story. Takahashi did spend nearly
> ten volumes repeatedly touching on getting Ryouga hooked up with Akari,
Jesus. That's just ridiculous. See, that's part of the problem right
there. There's no way it should have taken that long.
> It is unreasonable to expect that Takahashi could have made Shampoo not
> crash the wedding unless she started laying the groundwork ten volumes
> before. Probably more.
Well, Mousse had been around for several volumes. Why couldn't she
have done just that?
> Moreover, I find that whether or not they crash the wedding is completely
> unrelated to whether it's an "ending", inasmuch as all the above characters
> are disposable sideshows to the story of Ranma Saotome.
I disagree... to pretty much everything in that sentence, actually.
> >> despite the fact this would be a complete stylistic departure from
> >> everything it had been up until now? The story's about Ranma,
> >> not Ukyou.
>
> > Part of Ranma's story is about the people who are interested in him.
>
> No, I don't really think so.
Really?
> Everyone I mentioned above vanishes for volumes at a time and it
> affects the story not a whit. If Takahashi had completely forgotten
> to include Gosunkugi in the last issue,
Yeah, cuz Gosunkugi has the exact same impact on the story as, say,
Ryouga.
Stop using lame exmaples to try and prove your point, please.
> > By resolving that, you've dealt with part of Ramna's story.
>
> Why? Ranma doesn't think about or care about what Ukyou thinks.
Maybe the readers do?
> He never for one moment stops to think about Ukyou's feelings when
> deciding to marry Akane.
Our hero, ladies and gentlemen! <gag>
> Nor does Akane give any consideration to Kunou's feelings.
Well, ok, Kunou's just insane, so that's not a fair comparison.
> If any of the above characters had been dropped ala Dr. Tofu
> twenty volumes before, itwould not really have significantly
> changed the series.
Really? Didn't some of them help Ranma defeat some of his really
strong enemies?
> They are ultimately unimportant to the story that was being told,
Again, I have to disagree.
> their significance extant only in how they affect Ranma
Yes, that's kind of my whole point.
> (and to a lesser extent, Akane). The story never revolves around
> how much Ukyou loves Ranma. Never.
Revolves, no. But it is part of the story.
> Saying it's not finished unless it resolves that is like saying it's not
> finished unless it resolves who Picolet Chardin's bride is going to be.
Oh, for the love of Aang, stop with the lame-ass examples!
> >> She was fobbed off on someone else
>
> > Again, clearly NOT, or she wouldn't have tried to stop the wedding.
>
> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love interest?
No. I'm saying, if he was, and Ukyo was still one of those who
crashed the wedding, then Takahashi did a really incredibly, horribly
bad job of making him her love interest. Because if she loved him
(the whole point of a LOVE interest), she wouldn't have crashed it,
would she have? And neither would any of the others... except the
Kunos, cuz they're just insane.
Catherine Johnson.
Jorge A Pratt
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
news:Xns9AC6A4C6770Afr...@194.177.96.26...
> If I don't respond to this Freezer post, the terrorists win.
>
>> First. No.
>>
>> A hint that neither are the same stubborn jackasses they were in
>> Vol. 1 somwhere aroudn Vol. 30 or so? I don't think that's so
>> much to ask.
>
> Or more accurately: That any hint of compromise, maturity, or
> acknowledgement that things have changed since the beginning simply
> won't be ignored by the next volume (or by the next page).
Well, I guess the Herb, Shinnosuke, the Battle Dougi, and the Love Mochi
stories (at the very least) never existed.
--
Jorge A. Pratt
Freezer
> Well, I guess the Herb, Shinnosuke, the Battle Dougi, and the
> Love Mochi stories (at the very least) never existed.
And... Ranma gained new rivals, new techniques, and...? Yes, there were
plenty of "Aw They Really Do Love Each Other" moments, but the moment
anyone would try to remind them of them, both Ranma and Akane would go
into reflexive denial mode. Whenever one of them *tried* to reach out,
the other would misunderstand and we'd go right back to "'PERVERT!'
'TOMBOY!'"
Last I checked "two steps foward, two back" wasn't progress.
As I said "Reset Button".
Jorge A Pratt
"The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias news:p-KdndMlAsEwY8PV...@comcast.com...
> Blade wrote:
>
>> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get married
>> doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane didn't get
>> married because they're too young and had unresolved issues. The
>> story still made clear they would. Walking off into the sunset (or
>> sunrise) is a time-honoured classic ending, whether people like it or
>> not.
>
> Walking off into the sunset is one thing.
...with the knowledge that the main, central conflict of the series has been
resolved, but its denouement has simply been moved "off-screen," as it were.
> Reverting back to an apparent approximation of the status quo, which
> seems to be at least what many people think happened, is quite another.
But it isn't even a reversal. It's more a case of "even if this has been
resolved, life will go on." I see it more as an assurance that, even if
Ranma and Akane grow up and mature enough to solve their issues, the world
around them won't stop. There'll still be rivals and love quarrels and
Jusenkyo mixups, and that's fine --because that's the world they live in.
They've simply chosen, at long last, to face it _togetheer_.
I'll pick an example. When Wings of Honneamise ended, we never found out
whether the two warring countries were so moved by the launch that they
signed a peace treaty. So? That was peripheral to the story, which was about
one thing. They'll probably continue go be at war for a long time, but the
driving plot _was_ resolved.
>> had a dramatic final battle, had the hero admit love to the heroine,
>
> Last I checked, there was still no small amount of dispute whether
> anyone but Akane actually heard him say that...
(Minor typo fix --> "Ranma" for "Akane")
Why would it matter if anyone at all heard him say that? Akane's the one
that matters, and she did. Shampoo knows Ranma doesn't love her; Ryouga is
all but convinced R&A love each other; Mousse, the Guide, and Plum, are
bystanders.
And there was no dispute anyway. Not within the series. Outside, well, it's
the first time I hear there's a dispute among readers about this issue.
>> set up the rivals with love interests,
>
> And then had (some of) them go right back and do the same kind of things
> they had been doing before.
>
> Not to mention that there is still significant dispute whether some at
> least of those rivals actually *were* "set up with" the alternate love
> interests - Takahashi almost unquestionably intended for it to be the
> case, but many people don't seem to think that it had reached that point
> by the time things broke off.
It's likely she intended to use them as "consolation prizes," but lost
interest somewhere along the line. Konatsu never did grow past anything
better than "sidekick" status.
(And, frankly, Akari strikes me as the creepiest kind, but I always saw her
as a very flat character anyhow.)
--
Jorge A. Pratt
paranormalized
> "paranormalized" <paranormali...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
reading nuisance? Or spend money just for internet debate points? I
don't have that sort of money right now... ^_^;;
> > can argue all you want, but a lot of people who liked the series
> > before found the 'ending' to take away from the rest of the work.
> > You're not going to get people to like the way Ranma turned out, and
> > all you do is protest a point of semantics, and do little for the
> > aesthetics.
>
> I don't really give a flying rat's arse whether people like it or not,
> believe it or not. In fact, I don't recall ever saying I liked it. Do you?
>
You are charmingly argumentative. Is the semantics of the situation
all that interests you, or what *are* your goals here?
> > People may exaggerate when they say there is *no* ending, but they
>
> Awesome, we're in agreement.
>
Well, my definition of 'no ending' is shaped by experience with
American Comics. At least with the end of publication we're free to
ignore Ranma now...
> > have an expectation that a series of, what, 38 volumes? Has more of an
> > ending than advancing a relationship 6-12 months. By your very
>
> Even though, you know, the series took 12 months?
>
Ummm, in what way? I know for a fact that Takahashi did *not* publish
upwards of 3 tankoban a month, and I *think* I recall multiple summer
episode arcs separated by non-summer stuffs.
It took, like you mentioned before, Riverdale time. But it has *some*
continuity and advancement, just enough to throw off those who expect
more resolution than an Archie comic. Thus, the *perception* of a
bait-and-switch.
Arguing perceptions is unproductive, BTW. ^_~
> > admission, they are still the same age they started at, so Takahashi
> > stuck 38 volumes into 1 year, tops. That's a development problem of
> > substantial proportions...
>
> Or it's an episodic comedy that occured in the space of about a year, and
> had appropriate levels of character development for that year.
>
But is it an oddity in Manga for that reason, or not? Is there a
tradition of such series in Japan, or was Takahashi using her star
power to do her own thing, despite possible expectations of the
audience?
> > BTW, what is your opinion of the 'timeskip' pages at the end of some
> > relationship manga, showing marriage/relationships at some later
> > date? Are you going to praise Ranma and condemn Inuyasha? Or is a
> > timeskip somehow appropriate in one, and not the other?
>
> I find them rather hokey and contrived, except in rare circumstances.
> Inuyasha likely wouldn't be one of those circumstances where I think it
> would be appropriate, but not having read it I make no definitive judgements
> on it.
>
Just curious, but what current/recent stuff *are* you reading?
Me? One Piece, just for the sheer Joy that Oda imbues in each page,
Gunnm, for my violence/psuedo-philosophical-posing fix, the occasional
support of Urasawa's thrillers, and I *really* want someone to start
publishing Ueshiba Riichi here, since he has such a skewed mind...
Yeah, I'd probably buy more if I weren't on a tight budget, but those
are my current ongoing interests..
> -
> Blade
Jonathan Fisher
Jorge A Pratt
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
news:9aeed16d-a3f6-4ee7...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 22, 5:54 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get married
>> doesn't
>> really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane didn't get married because
>> they're too young and had unresolved issues.
>
> And God forbid Takahashi spend any of the manga's 38 volumes resolving
> them.
I thought those 38 volumes struck a fairly good balance between the comedy
oneshots, the more serious "enemy" arcs, the "relationship" stories, and
those that mixed them all together. Not every chapter in the manga HAD to
devote itself to developing the R&A relationship, after all, but those that
did were very good.
This, in contrast with Inuyasha, a much longer series where the I&K
relationship was always treated as secondary to the Naraku plotline (until
it suddenly wasn't! Funny that. The ending was a giant deus ex machina.)
During its 558 chapters, all sense of pace was thrown out the window. It
settled into a HORRIBLE "Monster of the Week" cycle, wherein IY would
Mega-Man a new ability for his sword JUST for defeating Naraku, and end up
creating another dozen volumes where that ability proved ineffective.
The ending run, which aped Okami to hilarious lengths, was even _worse_, and
was guilty of narrative bloat that any good editor could have trimmed to
about a third of its length (the fact that there had been at least two prior
"ending runs" didn't help matters.) At least, when Ranma 1/2 headed for its
"non-"ending, it was much better paced and was far more interesting.
--
Jorge A. Pratt
Jorge A Pratt
"Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
news:g3ot71$tfc$1...@aioe.org...
>> have an expectation that a series of, what, 38 volumes? Has more of an
>> ending than advancing a relationship 6-12 months. By your very
>
> Even though, you know, the series took 12 months?
"Curse of the New Year's Bell: New Years occurs. 'That makes twice,' said
Akane.
'How come we're not older?' said Ranma.
'Please mention me,' said the Bakeneko."
:-D
>> admission, they are still the same age they started at, so Takahashi
>> stuck 38 volumes into 1 year, tops. That's a development problem of
>> substantial proportions...
>
> Or it's an episodic comedy that occured in the space of about a year, and
> had appropriate levels of character development for that year.
And yet people are expecting (or, rather, expected) two 16 year old kids,
still in their first year of high-school, to get married straight away and
for ALL OF THEIR RIVALS to do the same.
>> BTW, what is your opinion of the 'timeskip' pages at the end of some
>> relationship manga, showing marriage/relationships at some later
>> date? Are you going to praise Ranma and condemn Inuyasha? Or is a
>> timeskip somehow appropriate in one, and not the other?
>
> I find them rather hokey and contrived, except in rare circumstances.
> Inuyasha likely wouldn't be one of those circumstances where I think it
> would be appropriate, but not having read it I make no definitive
> judgements on it.
Ironically, I thought Inuyasha "ended" WORSE than Ranma. There was a
gigantic deus ex machina to resolve the jewel issue, and an EVEN BIGGER DeM
to solve her relationship with Inuyasha (worse because her family was so...
blasé about it.) Several important characters went away long before the
ending arc even started, so they didn't even appear for an encore at the
end, one of the biggest questions about the greater world was left
unanswered, and THE second biggest conflict was completely ignored and
shoved under the carpet, because actually dealing with it would have
alienated half the fans. At least Ranma knows (or can be told) that
Jusenkyo's back to normal.
I'd rather have the NWC show up to wreck the wedding than have them fade
away a volume or two before Mt. Phoenix...
--
Jorge A. Pratt
Jorge A Pratt
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> If I don't respond to this Jorge A Pratt post, the terrorists win.
>
>> Well, I guess the Herb, Shinnosuke, the Battle Dougi, and the
>> Love Mochi stories (at the very least) never existed.
>
> And... Ranma gained new rivals, new techniques, and...? Yes, there were
> plenty of "Aw They Really Do Love Each Other" moments, but the moment
> anyone would try to remind them of them, both Ranma and Akane would go
> into reflexive denial mode. Whenever one of them *tried* to reach out,
> the other would misunderstand and we'd go right back to "'PERVERT!'
> 'TOMBOY!'"
>
> Last I checked "two steps foward, two back" wasn't progress.
>
> As I said "Reset Button".
I see the "Aww" moments as advancing two steps, the "Pervert!/Tomboy!" ones
as half one back. You see different. Okay, then.
But then, by your logic, the Akane from the Shinnosuke story wouldn't even
exist, because she'd have had to regress far enough to undo most of the
manga. ;-) It's only because of the earlier stories, such as Herb and the
Mochi, that there was something on which to build the relationship. If it
really were a standstill ("two forward, two back") then the Battle Dougi
story would have ended with her malleting Ranma or something.
--
Jorge A. Pratt
The Wanderer
> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:p-KdndMlAsEwY8PV...@comcast.com...
>
>> Blade wrote:
>>> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get
>>> married doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane
>>> didn't get married because they're too young and had unresolved
>>> issues. The story still made clear they would. Walking off into
>>> the sunset (or sunrise) is a time-honoured classic ending,
>>> whether people like it or not.
>>
>> Walking off into the sunset is one thing.
>>
>> Reverting back to an apparent approximation of the status quo,
>> which seems to be at least what many people think happened, is
>> quite another.
>
> What exactly do you think is the "status quo"?
I don't have a detailed answer for that (in no small part because I
haven't actually read that part of the manga - there's a reason why I've
been talking about what the common impression seems to be rather than
about what Is Actually The Case), but the status quo appears to consist
largely of two things:
* Ranma and Akane denying having feelings for one another, and getting
into misunderstandings and fights at the drop of a hat. Things had not
necessarily returned to that state when the series ended, but given how
often they have made progress and then regressed abruptly, something
very strong would be needed to indicate that the same thing would not
happen again - and so far as I recall having seen or heard, nothing
strong enough seems to have been presented.
* Various outside factors, consisting primarily but not exclusively of
the various rivals, acting to interfere with their getting together -
whether indirectly, by drawing away the interest of one or the other, or
directly, by taking action to prevent it. The available alternate love
interests for the various rivals would be something which should reduce
this, but judging by the fact that so many of the rivals attacked the
attempted wedding, it does not seem to have done so - or at least not to
a remotely sufficient extent.
> Do you think that you can't have an ending unless Shampoo is never
> again going to attempt to molest Ranma? Why?
No, I don't think that. I do think that matters cannot really be
considered resolved unless this *will not be a problem* - and for it not
to be a problem unless it were not going to continue to happen would
probably take some fairly serious explaining, which was not done.
>>> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
>>> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather silly.
>>> It wrapped up everything,
>>
>> And then unwrapped some of it again.
>
> What exactly did it undo?
For one thing, the fact of having apparently gotten the rivals out of
the way. There may be more (though then again there may not); as
mentioned, I do not know that part of the series in detail.
>>> had a dramatic final battle, had the hero admit love to the
>>> heroine,
>>
>> Last I checked, there was still no small amount of dispute whether
>> anyone but Ranma actually heard him say that...
>
> Akane says she heard him say that. Anyone who disputes it simply
> hasn't read the series, or does not remember it very well.
Okay. I have indeed not read that part of the series. The fact remains,
however, that many people *do* seem to have the impression that she did
not hear him - at least judging by the number of fanfics out there which
take that as a premise and do not indicate that they are being
divergent.
>>> set up the rivals with love interests,
>>
>> And then had (some of) them go right back and do the same kind of
>> things they had been doing before.
>
> So?
So they're still going to be presenting obstacles to Ranma&Akane as a
viable thing, which is presumably what the "alternate love interests"
were supposed to resolve in the first place.
>> Not to mention that there is still significant dispute whether some
>> at least of those rivals actually *were* "set up with" the
>> alternate love interests - Takahashi almost unquestionably intended
>> for it to be the case, but many people don't seem to think that it
>> had reached that point by the time things broke off.
>
> They were set up with in the sense that they have alternate love
> interests that are clearly authorially intended to end up with them.
> A lot of people (myself included) are actually quite happy Takahashi
> didn't really push them into other relationships as far as she pushed
> Ryouga.
I'd probably agree with that. The fact remains, however, that their not
being that far into those relationships *does* leave room for them to
continue to be interfering factors, and the attack on the wedding would
seem to indicate that they would be likely to do so.
> Once again, why is "Shampoo will never molest Ranma again" so
> important to making it an "ending"? The story isn't about Shampoo.
> She's a side-character.
It isn't important as such. What's important is "what Shampoo, or anyone
else, may or may not do will not be a problem".
> The story is about Ranma, and to a lesser extent Akane. Ranma's story
> was written, Ranma's issues were addressed, Ranma and Akane ran off
> into the sunrise together. The end.
Some people would probably dispute the "Ranma's issues were addressed"
claim, on the basis of the continuing curse if nothing else, but I don't
think I'm one of them.
> I would like you to list, say, half a dozen (to ensure I've seen a
> few) things you consider to have a "satisfactory ending".
I don't have a list ready to mind, but if you really want, I'll see if I
can think about it a bit over the next day or three.
> Without a shadow of a doubt, I'm going to find you loose ends and
> side characters who do not have all their problems and issues wrapped
> up. By your standards, I would then be able to declare them
> endingless.
No, an ending does not require that every single loose end be resolved
(though it's generally better if the vast majority are) and every last
minor character have all their problems wrapped up. A satisfactory
ending, however, *does* tend to require that any problems which remain
be things which can be handled, whether trivially or as part of a "and
then they kept on with business as usual for the rest of their lives"
(e.g. wandering heroes riding off into the sunset to continue having
adventures).
The primary remaining problem(s) in the "Ranma" case are things which
they have been experiencing on an ongoing basis for, in some cases,
virtually the entire series, with nothing seriously resembling progress.
That's not the kind of loose end which can be safely left unresolved.
>>> and then the protagonists ran off into the sunrise together.
>>> That's an ending. "Satisfactory" is completely subjective.
>>
>> Of course it's subjective. That's not (or, alternatively, is part
>> of) the point.
>
> No, it isn't part of the point at all. If you wish to say "whether a
> story has an ending or not is inherently subjective", then say so,
> and do not beat around the bush trying to pretend I said that when I
> quite clearly said the opposite.
No, I am not saying that. I am saying (in the above quote, at least)
that whether a story's ending is satisfactory is completely subjective.
For you, the ending of Ranma was apparently entirely satisfactory; for
many other people, despite having seen the same base events, it was not.
> You're wrong, no matter how you want to put it. At the most literal
> level, Ranma 1/2 has an ending because it ended (deliberately, no
> less).
On the one hand, yes, literally speaking that would be the case.
On the other hand, just because the series ended doesn't mean that the
story did.
However, I am not (and I think never have been) claiming that there was
no ending at all - just that many people do not find it to be a
satisfactory one.
Jorge A Pratt
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
news:2f5845ac-0649-44bb...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 23, 2:36 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>> interest?
>
> No, I'm saying exactly what I'm saying (wow, imagine that), and you're
> not answering me:
> If Takahashi "set up the rivals with love interests," why are ANY of
> them trying to stop the wedding?
Because...
a) Kodachi doesn't care, she just wants to wreak havoc. She knows Ranma
doesn't love her, and is fine with it. Hell, she probably doesn't love Ranma
anymore either. She's just crazy and she likes it.
b) Kuno is a joke. If he hadn't "gotten it" in 36 volumes (by his last
previous appearance) then it's obvious he never will. He's shoved in the
loony bin with his sister, but for different reasons, since he still claims
to love Akane and the PTG.
c) Ryouga was dealt with. He wanted to go to Akari, and didn't even plan to
attend the wedding at all.
d) Shampoo is just like Kuno, only worse. She has always hated Mousse,
showing pity towards him only when everyone else was forcing her to. She had
no additional love interests. What else is she supposed to do, but try to
stop the wedding out of spite? (Also, by the ending, relations between her
and Ranma were probably less than favorable. I figure she was at the wedding
in order to hurt people, not because of any genuine interest in Ranma.)
e) Ukyou never even knew about Jusendou, so she has pretty good reason to
believe R&A are being roped into the wedding. And as I said elsewhere,
Konatsu is hired help, cheap one, at that. She took him in out of pity and
gratitude, but he has about as much chance of being a love interest as
Tsubasa.
And they all showed up at the wedding to make a very precise point: that
life for Ranma and Akane will mean always having to deal with these people.
Myself, I wouldn't want it otherwise. They're all integral to the R1/2
tapestry, and if they had failed to show up I would've felt gypped. But
"resolving" them would have meant a) introducing new characters (because the
existing ones wouldn't satisfy the rivals,) b) going way OOC with the
existing characters, c) doing a time-skip, probably set after this failed
wedding, to show what happened to the cast years after the "run off into the
sunrise" from the last panel. But such a time-skip would have likely killed
the momentum of the story (like IY's timeskip did) and it would have needed
another chapter of "ending" to develop to everyone's liking. I don't know,
or presume to know, Takahashi's opinion on it, but I figure she weighed the
timeskip option versus "life will continue as always, but now you know that
these two are together," and chose the latter.
And on that vein, there are three things I wanted the ending to deal with:
a) Nodoka --dealt with two volumes previous.
b) The Relationship --more than adequately dealt with. They were going to
get married. BOTH of them were in agreement (even if Ranma was distracted by
the cask of Nannichuan.) When Soun said they'd postpone (not call off) the
wedding, they were still okay with it.
b) The Curse --the driving plot, parallel to the Relationship. Ranma
outright stated that, when it came down to it, he cared more about Akane
than about curing the curse. He left China thinking that Jusenkyou had been
destroyed, but now knows that it's still a possibility. THIS aspect could be
seen as unresolved, because THIS aspect returned to status quo (he knows
where the cure is, like always, but he's probably not returning to China
anytime soon.) At least it was better than the way Inuyasha resolved his own
issues with duality.
>> Of course it would take that long. There is no realistic way to make
>> Ukyou,
>> Shampoo, Kodachi, Kunou, Gosunkugi and arguably Ryouga give up on their
>> doomed love interests in the space of one story. Takahashi did spend
>> nearly
>> ten volumes repeatedly touching on getting Ryouga hooked up with Akari,
>
> Jesus. That's just ridiculous. See, that's part of the problem right
> there. There's no way it should have taken that long.
Why not? Ryouga's not the focus. Akari first showed up in vol. 30, and then
showed up again for, IIRC, another three stories (one of which was a
single-page cameo.) The rest of the volumes were focused on other characters
or themes.
>> It is unreasonable to expect that Takahashi could have made Shampoo not
>> crash the wedding unless she started laying the groundwork ten volumes
>> before. Probably more.
>
> Well, Mousse had been around for several volumes. Why couldn't she
> have done just that?
Because Shampoo hates Mousse's guts and the ground he steps on? And without
Mousse, she'd need additional character development to wean her off Ranma.
With the focus of the series being comedy, then R&A, then the martial arts,
devoting this space to Shampoo was probably not high on Takahashi's
priorities.
>> Moreover, I find that whether or not they crash the wedding is completely
>> unrelated to whether it's an "ending", inasmuch as all the above
>> characters
>> are disposable sideshows to the story of Ranma Saotome.
>
> I disagree... to pretty much everything in that sentence, actually.
I disagree to the extent that the story is also about Akane. Even if she
didn't show up at all in the Yohyou story.
Everyone else is integral, yes. But only as how they relate to the two main
leads, which are central and pivotal.
>> > By resolving that, you've dealt with part of Ramna's story.
>>
>> Why? Ranma doesn't think about or care about what Ukyou thinks.
>
> Maybe the readers do?
Then she's failed to appeal to those readers. The faction that cares more
about other characters wouldn't bat an eye.
>> He never for one moment stops to think about Ukyou's feelings when
>> deciding to marry Akane.
>
> Our hero, ladies and gentlemen! <gag>
Oh, like many heroes worry about that sort of thing, especially in the heat
of the moment. :P It's not something that's worth singling-out Ranma for.
>> Nor does Akane give any consideration to Kunou's feelings.
>
> Well, ok, Kunou's just insane, so that's not a fair comparison.
But Kuno loves Akane (and the PTG) just as well. It's unfair to cast him
aside. :P
>> If any of the above characters had been dropped ala Dr. Tofu
>> twenty volumes before, itwould not really have significantly
>> changed the series.
>
> Really? Didn't some of them help Ranma defeat some of his really
> strong enemies?
"Helped" vs. "Significantly changed." Also, if they had been dropped down a
sewer a la Tofuu, those "really strong enemies" would have simply not
included them. It's not really hard to envision a Pantyhose Tarou battle
that didn't involve Shampoo.
>> Saying it's not finished unless it resolves that is like saying it's not
>> finished unless it resolves who Picolet Chardin's bride is going to be.
>
> Oh, for the love of Aang, stop with the lame-ass examples!
Why is it a lame example? The Chardin story arc was, for all intents and
purposes, left wholly unresolved as of the manga ending, and it's exactly as
serious as the much-vaunted crashed wedding.
If people insist on taking the latter instance seriously, then they'll have
to take the Chardin engagement seriously too, otherwise it smacks of
hypocrisy. Both were joke endings and MEANT as such.
>> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>> interest?
>
> No. I'm saying, if he was, and Ukyo was still one of those who
> crashed the wedding, then Takahashi did a really incredibly, horribly
> bad job of making him her love interest.
That she did. Then again, she was quick to turn him into a sidekick to
Ukyou, and he works better in that role. In order to make him a believable
love interest, first he'd have to be a believable PERSON, which would take
several stories after his intro in volume 35. Because, seriously, the
current Konatsu would make a rather creepy husband. Hayato would be a better
choice :P
--
Jorge A. Pratt
The Wanderer
> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> escribió en el mensaje de
> noticias news:p-KdndMlAsEwY8PV...@comcast.com...
>
>> Blade wrote:
>>
>>> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get
>>> married doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane
>>> didn't get married because they're too young and had unresolved
>>> issues. The story still made clear they would. Walking off into
>>> the sunset (or sunrise) is a time-honoured classic ending,
>>> whether people like it or not.
>>
>> Walking off into the sunset is one thing.
>
> ...with the knowledge that the main, central conflict of the series
> has been resolved, but its denouement has simply been moved
> "off-screen," as it were.
>
>> Reverting back to an apparent approximation of the status quo,
>> which seems to be at least what many people think happened, is
>> quite another.
>
> But it isn't even a reversal. It's more a case of "even if this has
> been resolved, life will go on." I see it more as an assurance that,
> even if Ranma and Akane grow up and mature enough to solve their
> issues, the world around them won't stop. There'll still be rivals
> and love quarrels and Jusenkyo mixups, and that's fine --because
> that's the world they live in. They've simply chosen, at long last,
> to face it _togetheer_.
If that is what happened, then yes, that would help bring things closer
to what I would consider a satisfactory ending. (Not everyone would
necessarily agree with me, but my opinion is the only one which counts
anyway.) However, I do not remember seeing it indicated that that did in
fact happen.
>>> had a dramatic final battle, had the hero admit love to the
>>> heroine,
>>
>> Last I checked, there was still no small amount of dispute whether
>> anyone but Akane actually heard him say that...
>
> (Minor typo fix --> "Ranma" for "Akane")
Nope - I meant "Ranma". While I have not seen that event in the original
manga, most of the depictions of it I have seen indicate that Akane was
either unconscious or actually dead at the time, and thus not directly
capable of hearing anything. (She may perhaps have heard it anyway, via
the Power of Love and poetic license, but it doesn't seem to be a
given.)
> Why would it matter if anyone at all heard him say that? Akane's the
> one that matters, and she did. Shampoo knows Ranma doesn't love her;
> Ryouga is all but convinced R&A love each other; Mousse, the Guide,
> and Plum, are bystanders.
See above. If she actually didn't hear it, then unless the admission has
changed enough in him to make him willing to repeat it and/or change his
behaviour based on it without repeating it, then it doesn't make much of
a difference.
> And there was no dispute anyway. Not within the series. Outside,
> well, it's the first time I hear there's a dispute among readers
> about this issue.
I've seen probably far more fanfics (even Ranma/Akane fics) which use
the notion that she did not than ones which use the notion that she did.
The Wanderer
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fe...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:b7e2ac1b-2832-49d5...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> On Jun 23, 4:56 am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>>> interest?
>>
>> Again, if she were so interested in someone else, why break up the
>> wedding? I've asked this question twice now, and you haven't
>> answered either time.
>
> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
> interest?
>
> The answer to my question answers yours. And I think you know that.
Er...
How can the answer to a "yes"/"no" question also be the answer to a
"how"/"why" question?
Jorge A Pratt
> Blade wrote:
>
>> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:p-KdndMlAsEwY8PV...@comcast.com...
>>
>>> Blade wrote:
>
>>>> All those events ended it. That Ranma and Akane did not get
>>>> married doesn't really change them one whit. Ranma and Akane
>>>> didn't get married because they're too young and had unresolved
>>>> issues. The story still made clear they would. Walking off into
>>>> the sunset (or sunrise) is a time-honoured classic ending,
>>>> whether people like it or not.
>>>
>>> Walking off into the sunset is one thing.
>>>
>>> Reverting back to an apparent approximation of the status quo,
>>> which seems to be at least what many people think happened, is
>>> quite another.
>>
>> What exactly do you think is the "status quo"?
>
> I don't have a detailed answer for that (in no small part because I
> haven't actually read that part of the manga - there's a reason why I've
> been talking about what the common impression seems to be rather than
> about what Is Actually The Case),
Wait, what? You said in another reply:
> If that is what happened, then yes, that would help bring things closer
> to what I would consider a satisfactory ending. (Not everyone would
> necessarily agree with me, but my opinion is the only one which counts
> anyway.) However, I do not remember seeing it indicated that that did in
> fact happen.
I got the impression from that last sentence that you HAD read it. On
rereading it, I now understand that you saw indications --i.e. secondhand
accounts. Is this correct?
> * Ranma and Akane denying having feelings for one another, and getting
> into misunderstandings and fights at the drop of a hat. Things had not
> necessarily returned to that state when the series ended, but given how
> often they have made progress and then regressed abruptly, something
> very strong would be needed to indicate that the same thing would not
> happen again - and so far as I recall having seen or heard, nothing
> strong enough seems to have been presented.
But it did. The end was the major breakthrough which finally got them to
admit their feelings. Besides, their squabbling doesn't necessarily mean
"regression." Even the most tight of couples fight and call each other
names; in the Ranma 1/2 context, where the leads are as headstrong (and
physically resilient) as they are, this merely escalates to match. But
anyone who thinks that Ranma calling Akane "uncute tomboy," _after
Ryugenzawa_, means that he's regressed to a previous state is just being
contrary.
The "drop of a hat" is also a gross exaggeration.
> * Various outside factors, consisting primarily but not exclusively of
> the various rivals, acting to interfere with their getting together -
> whether indirectly, by drawing away the interest of one or the other,
I don't remember any such instance. Akane's last crush was Tofuu, then she
shifted onto Ranma. Ranma never expressed any interest whatsoever in ANYONE
but Akane.
Unless you count Ryouga via the Koi Rod. Or Cologne, with the Instant-Love
Pill. :-D
> or
> directly, by taking action to prevent it.
Which always backfires by drawing R&A even closer.
>> Do you think that you can't have an ending unless Shampoo is never
>> again going to attempt to molest Ranma? Why?
>
> No, I don't think that. I do think that matters cannot really be
> considered resolved unless this *will not be a problem* - and for it not
> to be a problem unless it were not going to continue to happen would
> probably take some fairly serious explaining, which was not done.
The major problem with Shampoo clinging over Ranma was that Akane would
berate him for it, because of her own insecurities. Ranma always rejected
her --and after Jusendou, that's probably going to get worse for her.
Granted, Akane's assurance of Ranma's love could go both ways: "Why are you
letting her hug you?! I thought you loved ME! *wham!*" or she could take
the fight to Shampoo, like she always should have done. We don't know that,
admittedly. But I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt.
>> Akane says she heard him say that. Anyone who disputes it simply
>> hasn't read the series, or does not remember it very well.
>
> Okay. I have indeed not read that part of the series. The fact remains,
> however, that many people *do* seem to have the impression that she did
> not hear him - at least judging by the number of fanfics out there which
> take that as a premise and do not indicate that they are being
> divergent.
Fanfics, mind. :-P
Fanfiction isn't the most accurate source for characterization, or even
basic fact. How many times have they been wrong on something as simple as
the Dragon's Whisker? And that's not counting "shippers" with personal
reasons for ignoring/contradicting the written story.
>> So?
>
> So they're still going to be presenting obstacles to Ranma&Akane as a
> viable thing, which is presumably what the "alternate love interests"
> were supposed to resolve in the first place.
They're obstacles to R&A inasmuch as they'll try to pry them apart, not
get-in-between. And the "pry apart" thing is always counterproductive, so,
what if they do remain that way? They can try all they want, the main thrust
of the series has been cleared.
> No, an ending does not require that every single loose end be resolved
> (though it's generally better if the vast majority are) and every last
> minor character have all their problems wrapped up. A satisfactory
> ending, however, *does* tend to require that any problems which remain
> be things which can be handled, whether trivially or as part of a "and
> then they kept on with business as usual for the rest of their lives"
> (e.g. wandering heroes riding off into the sunset to continue having
> adventures).
Indiana Jones 3 got away with this, with the same thematic structure as
Ranma. But the latter didn't. Aw.
(Well, except Indy rode off into the sunset while R&A ran into the sunrise,
which is even more symbolic.)
> The primary remaining problem(s) in the "Ranma" case are things which
> they have been experiencing on an ongoing basis for, in some cases,
> virtually the entire series, with nothing seriously resembling progress.
> That's not the kind of loose end which can be safely left unresolved.
I'll wait for the list that Blade asked for. I'm holding myself back from
typing my own list of series-long conflicts that were dealt with one way or
another, whether people liked their resolutions or not.
>> No, it isn't part of the point at all. If you wish to say "whether a
>> story has an ending or not is inherently subjective", then say so,
>> and do not beat around the bush trying to pretend I said that when I
>> quite clearly said the opposite.
>
> No, I am not saying that. I am saying (in the above quote, at least)
> that whether a story's ending is satisfactory is completely subjective.
> For you, the ending of Ranma was apparently entirely satisfactory; for
> many other people, despite having seen the same base events, it was not.
Satisfactory ending or not, it WAS an ending, which is the crux of this
discussion.
People should save the "non-ending" qualification for the _anime_.
>> You're wrong, no matter how you want to put it. At the most literal
>> level, Ranma 1/2 has an ending because it ended (deliberately, no
>> less).
>
> On the one hand, yes, literally speaking that would be the case.
>
> On the other hand, just because the series ended doesn't mean that the
> story did.
Plenty of good, complete stories never end explicitly. They go on, their
world and characters move on, beyond the bounds of the printed page. It's
just the author isn't there to narrate them; all the same the audience is
meant to understand that, even though life will go on, something basic has
changed which will make said life better for the protagonists. Often, these
stories, which sail away into the unknown, are better than the ones that
forcibly attempt to tie up every single loose end.
It's possibly _because_ I prefer "and life goes on" endings that I really
liked Ranma, and was left cold by Inuyasha. No, wait, I take that back. IY
was more of a "Finally, that's over! Took long enough!" sort of relief, but
that's another--
--oh, wait. It IS part of this discussion ;-)
--
Jorge A.Pratt
The Wanderer
> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> escribió en el mensaje de
> noticias news:WdqdnbhdTdjrqP3V...@comcast.com...
>
>> Blade wrote:
>>> What exactly do you think is the "status quo"?
>>
>> I don't have a detailed answer for that (in no small part because I
>> haven't actually read that part of the manga - there's a reason
>> why I've been talking about what the common impression seems to be
>> rather than about what Is Actually The Case),
>
> Wait, what? You said in another reply:
>
>> If that is what happened, then yes, that would help bring things
>> closer to what I would consider a satisfactory ending. (Not
>> everyone would necessarily agree with me, but my opinion is the
>> only one which counts anyway.) However, I do not remember seeing it
>> indicated that that did in fact happen.
>
> I got the impression from that last sentence that you HAD read it. On
> rereading it, I now understand that you saw indications --i.e.
> secondhand accounts. Is this correct?
If I understand you correctly: yes.
>> * Ranma and Akane denying having feelings for one another, and
>> getting into misunderstandings and fights at the drop of a hat.
>> Things had not necessarily returned to that state when the series
>> ended, but given how often they have made progress and then
>> regressed abruptly, something very strong would be needed to
>> indicate that the same thing would not happen again - and so far as
>> I recall having seen or heard, nothing strong enough seems to have
>> been presented.
>
> But it did. The end was the major breakthrough which finally got them
> to admit their feelings.
What event are you talking about? I don't remember anything specific,
and the only things I can think of that you might be meaning by "the
end" are "the fact that the series ended" (which is fourth-wall-breaking
and doesn't make much sense anyway) and the "walking into the
sunset/sunrise" which I infer from earlier comments was the closing
scene.
> Besides, their squabbling doesn't necessarily mean "regression." Even
> the most tight of couples fight and call each other names; in the
> Ranma 1/2 context, where the leads are as headstrong (and physically
> resilient) as they are, this merely escalates to match. But anyone
> who thinks that Ranma calling Akane "uncute tomboy," _after
> Ryugenzawa_, means that he's regressed to a previous state is just
> being contrary.
That may well be the case. I'm not sure that I really disagree with the
core of the perspective I'm arguing against anyway, just with some
(perhaps many) of its manifestations. There almost certainly are people
who do sincerely believe that, but probably not nearly as many as there
are people who subscribe to the Akane Is Vile And Disgusting school of
thought and thus don't believe that he ever really meant it in the first
place.
>> * Various outside factors, consisting primarily but not exclusively
>> of the various rivals, acting to interfere with their getting
>> together - whether indirectly, by drawing away the interest of one
>> or the other,
>
> I don't remember any such instance. Akane's last crush was Tofuu,
> then she shifted onto Ranma. Ranma never expressed any interest
> whatsoever in ANYONE but Akane.
I could point out Ryouga in the form of P-chan, and cite the others as
distracting influences, but that would probably get bogged down fairly
soon in either "stretching to make it fit" or simply my not being
familiar enough with the source material.
Some people would unquestionably cite what Ranma did in the Reversal
Jewel incident as "interest in someone other than Akane", in that he
acted to get Shampoo's interest back when he'd lost it, but I don't
think that that's necessarily a very strong argument.
>> or directly, by taking action to prevent it.
>
> Which always backfires by drawing R&A even closer.
I'm not sure I'd go along with "always". P-chan is probably the most
obvious example (and yes, in different contexts he could be both direct
and indirect), but I do seem to recall others, though I don't remember
any specifically at the moment.
>>> Do you think that you can't have an ending unless Shampoo is
>>> never again going to attempt to molest Ranma? Why?
>>
>> No, I don't think that. I do think that matters cannot really be
>> considered resolved unless this *will not be a problem* - and for
>> it not to be a problem unless it were not going to continue to
>> happen would probably take some fairly serious explaining, which
>> was not done.
>
> The major problem with Shampoo clinging over Ranma was that Akane
> would berate him for it, because of her own insecurities. Ranma
> always rejected her --and after Jusendou, that's probably going to
> get worse for her. Granted, Akane's assurance of Ranma's love could
> go both ways: "Why are you letting her hug you?! I thought you loved
> ME! *wham!*" or she could take the fight to Shampoo, like she always
> should have done. We don't know that, admittedly. But I'd rather give
> the benefit of the doubt.
I probably would as well - while I'm nowhere near being one of the
Knights of the True Fiancee, I do prefer that pairing over most others
in Ranma fanfic. I do not, however, remember any indication of even
*one* time in the series itself when she reacted in such a reasonable
way, instead of taking the negative interpretation - and if anything the
impression is that this got worse as time went on, not better.
That pattern - taking the negative interpretation, the one which says
Ranma is always at fault - is a large part of why so many people think
of Akane as a horrible character and an absolutely unsuitable match for
anyone much less for Ranma. I don't agree with that perspective, but I
do recognize the points on which it is based.
>>> Akane says she heard him say that. Anyone who disputes it simply
>>> hasn't read the series, or does not remember it very well.
>>
>> Okay. I have indeed not read that part of the series. The fact
>> remains, however, that many people *do* seem to have the impression
>> that she did not hear him - at least judging by the number of
>> fanfics out there which take that as a premise and do not indicate
>> that they are being divergent.
>
> Fanfics, mind. :-P
>
> Fanfiction isn't the most accurate source for characterization, or
> even basic fact. How many times have they been wrong on something as
> simple as the Dragon's Whisker? And that's not counting "shippers"
> with personal reasons for ignoring/contradicting the written story.
Of course. But with enough breadth of reading, and an eye out for
intentional changes, it's still a fairly good barometer for - at the
very least - what people *think* is the case... and that's what I was
talking about here, since whether the ending is satisfactory or not is
entirely subjective and thus is entirely a matter of what people
perceive to be the case.
>>> So?
>>
>> So they're still going to be presenting obstacles to Ranma&Akane as
>> a viable thing, which is presumably what the "alternate love
>> interests" were supposed to resolve in the first place.
>
> They're obstacles to R&A inasmuch as they'll try to pry them apart,
> not get-in-between. And the "pry apart" thing is always
> counterproductive, so, what if they do remain that way? They can try
> all they want, the main thrust of the series has been cleared.
There are several points on which I'm not convinced here, but I don't
really feel like going into all of them at the moment.
>> The primary remaining problem(s) in the "Ranma" case are things
>> which they have been experiencing on an ongoing basis for, in some
>> cases, virtually the entire series, with nothing seriously
>> resembling progress. That's not the kind of loose end which can be
>> safely left unresolved.
>
> I'll wait for the list that Blade asked for. I'm holding myself back
> from typing my own list of series-long conflicts that were dealt with
> one way or another, whether people liked their resolutions or not.
The issue isn't whether they were dealt with at all (though some people
would probably say that some weren't). The issue is whether they were
dealt with *convincingly* and *conclusively*. The former is probably at
least partly subjective; the latter depends on the former.
>>> No, it isn't part of the point at all. If you wish to say
>>> "whether a story has an ending or not is inherently subjective",
>>> then say so, and do not beat around the bush trying to pretend I
>>> said that when I quite clearly said the opposite.
>>
>> No, I am not saying that. I am saying (in the above quote, at
>> least) that whether a story's ending is satisfactory is completely
>> subjective. For you, the ending of Ranma was apparently entirely
>> satisfactory; for many other people, despite having seen the same
>> base events, it was not.
>
> Satisfactory ending or not, it WAS an ending, which is the crux of
> this discussion.
The question of whether or not it was an ending (as I understand it)
hinges on whether or not the significant conflicts were satisfactorily
resolved. Some people seem to think that they were. Many other people
seem to think that they were not. As I said, "satisfactory" is subjective.
> People should save the "non-ending" qualification for the _anime_.
Okay. What precisely are the differences between the manga and the anime
in this respect?
This seems like the sort of thing which would probably have gotten a
definitive online treatment at some point (if only in a newsgroup post),
but I haven't run across one.
>>> You're wrong, no matter how you want to put it. At the most
>>> literal level, Ranma 1/2 has an ending because it ended
>>> (deliberately, no less).
>>
>> On the one hand, yes, literally speaking that would be the case.
>>
>> On the other hand, just because the series ended doesn't mean that
>> the story did.
>
> Plenty of good, complete stories never end explicitly. They go on,
> their world and characters move on, beyond the bounds of the printed
> page. It's just the author isn't there to narrate them; all the same
> the audience is meant to understand that, even though life will go
> on, something basic has changed which will make said life better for
> the protagonists. Often, these stories, which sail away into the
> unknown, are better than the ones that forcibly attempt to tie up
> every single loose end.
Oh, I agree entirely.
I just don't necessarily agree that enough of the existing issues were
resolved for that type of ending to be viable. (Note that I don't
necessarily entirely disagree with that, either.)
> It's possibly _because_ I prefer "and life goes on" endings that I
> really liked Ranma, and was left cold by Inuyasha. No, wait, I take
> that back. IY was more of a "Finally, that's over! Took long enough!"
> sort of relief, but that's another--
>
> --oh, wait. It IS part of this discussion ;-)
Frankly, while I liked Inuyasha initially, by now I find it more
valuable as source material for well-done fanfics than as anything else.
Freezer
> How can the answer to a "yes"/"no" question also be the answer to a
> "how"/"why" question?
Because he's right and the rest of us are "silly".
Blade
> On Jun 23, 2:36 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <f...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> >> I really don't care whether people like the ending of Ranma;
>> >> >> contrarily, saying it's a "non-ending" is frankly rather
>> >> >> silly.[...],
>> >> >> set up the rivals with love interests,
>>
>> >> > Yet some of them were clearly NOT "set up" with them or why would
>> >> > that
>> >> > try to stop the wedding?
>>
>> >> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>> >> interest?
>>
>> > Again, if she were so interested in someone else, why break up the
>> > wedding? I've asked this question twice now, and you haven't answered
>> > either time.
>>
>> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>> interest?
>
> No, I'm saying exactly what I'm saying (wow, imagine that), and you're
> not answering me:
> If Takahashi "set up the rivals with love interests," why are ANY of
> them trying to stop the wedding?
> If you refuse to actually answer this question again, this discussion
> is over.
...fine. I expected you didn't need me to explain the point, but here it is:
Konatsu was introduced to be Ukyou's love interest. That is completely
irrelevent to whether she crashed the wedding, because the fact Konatsu is
her obvious authorial love interest doesn't mean she had given up on Ranma,
because Ukyou giving up on Ranma was outside the bounds of the series.
My point was to get you to admit the obvious fact that that was exactly what
Konatsu was introduced for, which would render your protesting about "But
Ukyou still crashed the wedding!" entirely moot.
>> And I think you know that.
>
> And I think you shouldn't be telling me what I think. Or what I'm
> saying, for that matter.
And I think you shouldn't refuse to admit the blatantly obvious just because
it weakens your point.
>> >> Or are you saying the series would somehow have benefitted from
>> >> spending ten volumes centreing on each love interest in turn and
>> >> believably dousing their interest in Ranma/Akane,
>>>
>> > Don't put words in my mouth, Blade. Why the hell would it have to
>> > take that long? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't. You're just saying it
>> > would to make what I said sound really unreasonable. It's called a
>> > strawman, and it's a really bad debating technique.
>>
>> Of course it would take that long. There is no realistic way to make
>> Ukyou,
>> Shampoo, Kodachi, Kunou, Gosunkugi and arguably Ryouga give up on their
>> doomed love interests in the space of one story. Takahashi did spend
>> nearly
>> ten volumes repeatedly touching on getting Ryouga hooked up with Akari,
>
> Jesus. That's just ridiculous. See, that's part of the problem right
> there. There's no way it should have taken that long.
And your belief it wouldn't take that long stems from what, exactly? I just
pointed out she took repeated stories over nearly ten volumes setting up
Ryouga with Akari and he still hadn't fallen out of love with Akane.
>> It is unreasonable to expect that Takahashi could have made Shampoo not
>> crash the wedding unless she started laying the groundwork ten volumes
>> before. Probably more.
>
> Well, Mousse had been around for several volumes. Why couldn't she
> have done just that?
Mousse has been around, in fact, as a recurring character since volume 9,
therefore meaning he's been around nearly 30 volumes. However, since it is
clear to me (and the only actual example supports this) that it would take a
long time for this to happen, it means Takahashi would have had to lay
groundwork for a conclusion to the series years before she actually intended
to conclude it. All for the sake of characters who are virtually irrelevent
to the main plot of the series.
>> Moreover, I find that whether or not they crash the wedding is completely
>> unrelated to whether it's an "ending", inasmuch as all the above
>> characters
>> are disposable sideshows to the story of Ranma Saotome.
>
> I disagree... to pretty much everything in that sentence, actually.
Okay. So, kindly provide any reason to believe Ukyou is not a disposable
sideshow to the story of Ranma Saotome.
>> >> despite the fact this would be a complete stylistic departure from
>> >> everything it had been up until now? The story's about Ranma,
>> >> not Ukyou.
>>
>> > Part of Ranma's story is about the people who are interested in him.
>>
>> No, I don't really think so.
>
> Really?
Really. And so would you if you look at how the overall story is
constructed. Or just noticed that every one of those characters can (and
did) disappear for volumes at a time and this makes absolutely no difference
to the story.
>> Everyone I mentioned above vanishes for volumes at a time and it
>> affects the story not a whit. If Takahashi had completely forgotten
>> to include Gosunkugi in the last issue,
>
> Yeah, cuz Gosunkugi has the exact same impact on the story as, say,
> Ryouga.
Why does he have more? He has more overall appearences, yes. How many
appearences do you have to have to be important? What's the magic number?
Ryouga, I'll note, gets more of a "wrap-up" treatment than anyone else. Of
course, I'd put that down to Takahashi liking him, much like I would his
larger number of appearences. But he's still not important to the central
story.
> Stop using lame exmaples to try and prove your point, please.
Stop using fuzzy indefensible logic to prove yours. Who's important? Who
"has" to be wrapped up for an ending? Who doesn't? Why? What are your
criteria?
>> > By resolving that, you've dealt with part of Ramna's story.
>>
>> Why? Ranma doesn't think about or care about what Ukyou thinks.
>
> Maybe the readers do?
That's unimportant, bluntly. I care about Pantyhose Tarou but that doesn't
mean the story didn't end just because he never got his new name. He's not
important to the central story, and (here's the thing) neither is Ukyou. Or
Kunou. Or Ryouga.
>> He never for one moment stops to think about Ukyou's feelings when
>> deciding to marry Akane.
>
> Our hero, ladies and gentlemen! <gag>
Whether you think Ranma's personality is admirable or not has nothing to do
with the ending.
>> Nor does Akane give any consideration to Kunou's feelings.
>
> Well, ok, Kunou's just insane, so that's not a fair comparison.
She doesn't give consideration to Gosunkugi's either.
>> If any of the above characters had been dropped ala Dr. Tofu
>> twenty volumes before, itwould not really have significantly
>> changed the series.
>
> Really? Didn't some of them help Ranma defeat some of his really
> strong enemies?
Yes? So? That's rather like saying that since the Magic Teakettle helped
Ranma defeat Herb, the story was not really Ranma 1/2 without the Magic
Teakettle.
If Mousse had been a one-shot like Tsubasa, the contribution he made to
Ranma defeating Herb wouldn't have happened. This still would not have
changed the story overall. Ranma 1/2 would still be completely recognisable.
I am not saying the other characters do not affect the story. That would be
ridiculous on its face. I am saying that they are not important to the
story, that the central story of Ranma (and to a lesser extent Akane) goes
on whether they are there or not. Take away ANY of those characters and you
do not particularly change Ranma 1/2. Take away Ranma and you change it
beyond recognition. He's important. They're not. He needs closure (and gets
it). They don't.
You keep protesting they do, but the only reason you have come up with is
"people care". I appreciate your caring; bear in mind I ALSO care about many
of these characters, at least as much as anyone else in this thread. But
caring does not make it necessary to wrap up their "stories", because their
stories are not the story of Ranma 1/2. Ranma's is. Whether you like that or
not isn't really relevent to whether it's an "ending".
>> They are ultimately unimportant to the story that was being told,
> Again, I have to disagree.
Then I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you why. In what way would Ranma
1/2 be significantly changed by the absence of any one of those characters,
other than "Ukyou's not in it"?
>> their significance extant only in how they affect Ranma
>
> Yes, that's kind of my whole point.
Going to school affects Ranma too; does the story not end unless he
graduates from school?
>> (and to a lesser extent, Akane). The story never revolves around
>> how much Ukyou loves Ranma. Never.
>
> Revolves, no. But it is part of the story.
So is going to school. See above. The fact Ukyou exists does not make her
important to the story.
>> Saying it's not finished unless it resolves that is like saying it's not
>> finished unless it resolves who Picolet Chardin's bride is going to be.
>
> Oh, for the love of Aang, stop with the lame-ass examples!
The example is completely valid until you provide the precise number of
appearences necessary to qualify as "important" and back it up with some
consistant metric to define who needs to have all their life's issues
resolved in order for an "ending" to exist.
The example illustrates the absurdity of your argument. If you need to wrap
up all of Ukyou's problems in order to end the story, why NOT Picolet? Where
is the dividing line? You scoff at Gosunkugi being included as important,
but he's a multiple appearence character who is important in several stories
(more than Nabiki is, actually). What about Kodachi? She barely appears more
than Gosunkugi. What about Kunou? He appears a lot less than Ryouga. Where
is the line? What is your criteria?
If your criteria becomes just "I don't like it because", then we have no
quarrel, because (as you can see right at the top of this post) I don't care
about people not liking the ending. In fact, I have never said I liked the
ending.
>> >> She was fobbed off on someone else
>>
>> > Again, clearly NOT, or she wouldn't have tried to stop the wedding.
>>
>> So you're saying Konatsu wasn't introduced to be Ukyou's new love
>> interest?
>
> No. I'm saying, if he was, and Ukyo was still one of those who
> crashed the wedding, then Takahashi did a really incredibly, horribly
> bad job of making him her love interest. Because if she loved him
> (the whole point of a LOVE interest), she wouldn't have crashed it,
> would she have? And neither would any of the others... except the
> Kunos, cuz they're just insane.
Love interest. Not lover. They are not the same thing.
-
Blade
Blade
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
> If I don't respond to this Jorge A Pratt post, the terrorists win.
>
>> Well, I guess the Herb, Shinnosuke, the Battle Dougi, and the
>> Love Mochi stories (at the very least) never existed.
>
> And... Ranma gained new rivals, new techniques, and...? Yes, there were
> plenty of "Aw They Really Do Love Each Other" moments, but the moment
> anyone would try to remind them of them, both Ranma and Akane would go
> into reflexive denial mode. Whenever one of them *tried* to reach out,
> the other would misunderstand and we'd go right back to "'PERVERT!'
> 'TOMBOY!'"
>
> Last I checked "two steps foward, two back" wasn't progress.
You've never actually read any of those stories, have you?
-
Blade
Blade
>> > the Viz releases, and stopped looking into the series altogether. You
>>
>> So, you never actually read it, then?
>>
> Would you rather I stand around in Borders for a few hours and be a
> reading nuisance? Or spend money just for internet debate points? I
> don't have that sort of money right now... ^_^;;
I'm just pointing out that you're arguing about an ending you have never
actually even seen.
>> > can argue all you want, but a lot of people who liked the series
>> > before found the 'ending' to take away from the rest of the work.
>> > You're not going to get people to like the way Ranma turned out, and
>> > all you do is protest a point of semantics, and do little for the
>> > aesthetics.
>>
>> I don't really give a flying rat's arse whether people like it or not,
>> believe it or not. In fact, I don't recall ever saying I liked it. Do
>> you?
>>
> You are charmingly argumentative. Is the semantics of the situation
> all that interests you, or what *are* your goals here?
Yes, the semantics interest me. People not liking the ending is fine. Saying
it's not an ending because it doesn't address the concerns of unimportant
side characters is as objectively incorrect as any statement about writing
can be (and yes, that's objective enough).
>> > People may exaggerate when they say there is *no* ending, but they
>>
>> Awesome, we're in agreement.
>>
> Well, my definition of 'no ending' is shaped by experience with
> American Comics. At least with the end of publication we're free to
> ignore Ranma now...
Sure. Some American comics have ended, though.
>> > have an expectation that a series of, what, 38 volumes? Has more of an
>> > ending than advancing a relationship 6-12 months. By your very
>>
>> Even though, you know, the series took 12 months?
>>
> Ummm, in what way? I know for a fact that Takahashi did *not* publish
> upwards of 3 tankoban a month, and I *think* I recall multiple summer
> episode arcs separated by non-summer stuffs.
Yes, but the series still took a year "in-series", by authorial decree. Also
within the series this is proven because Ranma and Ryouga are still 16, and
Kunou 17, in the Magic Mushrooms story (which is, IIRC, Volume 33 of a
38-volume series). Takahashi just drew whatever season it happened to be in
Japan at the time.
I mean, you can complain about "Riverdale Time" if you like, and I suppose
that's a valid complaint, but it's not a complaint that has anything to do
with the ending. It's also a complaint you'd have to make about most anime
and manga. I mean, I've noted many times one reason that I like Dragonball
is because time actually passes through it - a fact that is exceptional
because it doesn't happen very often.
> It took, like you mentioned before, Riverdale time. But it has *some*
> continuity and advancement, just enough to throw off those who expect
> more resolution than an Archie comic. Thus, the *perception* of a
> bait-and-switch.
But there is more resolution than an Archie comic, at least to my knowledge
thereof. Ranma chooses a girl, reunites with his mother, beats his greatest
challenge, rides off into the sunrise. Does Archie?
> Arguing perceptions is unproductive, BTW. ^_~
Ah, but it is not perception that Ukyou is an unimportant sideshow to
Ranma's story. At least, no more than it is perception that this is an
argument. Any analysis of Ranma 1/2 would make it very clear nobody's really
important to the central story but Ranma (and to a lesser extent, Akane).
>> > admission, they are still the same age they started at, so Takahashi
>> > stuck 38 volumes into 1 year, tops. That's a development problem of
>> > substantial proportions...
>>
>> Or it's an episodic comedy that occured in the space of about a year, and
>> had appropriate levels of character development for that year.
>>
> But is it an oddity in Manga for that reason, or not? Is there a
> tradition of such series in Japan, or was Takahashi using her star
> power to do her own thing, despite possible expectations of the
> audience?
It's not an oddity at all. There's craploads of episodic comedy manga where
time doesn't really pass. Besides, Takahashi did that (even more so, with
little to no continuity between stories) in Urusei Yatsura, which was her
first manga of note, so she obviously wasn't using her star power to push
it.
>> > BTW, what is your opinion of the 'timeskip' pages at the end of some
>> > relationship manga, showing marriage/relationships at some later
>> > date? Are you going to praise Ranma and condemn Inuyasha? Or is a
>> > timeskip somehow appropriate in one, and not the other?
>>
>> I find them rather hokey and contrived, except in rare circumstances.
>> Inuyasha likely wouldn't be one of those circumstances where I think it
>> would be appropriate, but not having read it I make no definitive
>> judgements
>> on it.
>>
> Just curious, but what current/recent stuff *are* you reading?
Lessee, in the recent past I've been reading -
Claymore (excellent dark fantasy which I hope doesn't go too
shounen-fightyish), Red River (interesting shoujo historical fantasy about a
girl from Japan sucked into the Hittite Empire), Buso Renkin (painfully
derivative shounen fighting series that takes awhile to get any legs under
it; mostly kept reading by the extremely strong female lead), Pretty Face
(standard but amusing sex comedy about a guy who gets in a bus accident and
wakes up after a year's coma to find a deranged plastic surgeon has given
him the face from a photo he had in his pocket, which happens to be the girl
he has a crush on), Kurohime (eye-rollingly cheesecakey piece that has an
interesting premise but I'm not sure yet if it'll get off the ground),
Tsukihime (half-decent manga adaptation of the brilliant text adventure
game), Death Note (probably I don't need to give a summary of this), Houshin
Engi (not unflawed but unique and imaginative fantasy epic set in ancient
China and using gobs of Taoist mythology; also a series where time actually
passes, though this doesn't matter as much as you might think since most of
the characters are immortal), and Birds of Prey (at times brilliant American
comic written as far as the GNs have come out by Gail Simone, hampered
somewhat by the usual irritatingness of American comics whereupon the
ongoing plots and issues have gotten disrupted by random mega-events and
such).
> Me? One Piece, just for the sheer Joy that Oda imbues in each page,
Odd. I would consider One Piece to basically be an inheritor of the same
"timeless gag manga" tradition. I could be wrong though, since I stopped
reading it a little after the Arlong arc.
> Gunnm, for my violence/psuedo-philosophical-posing fix, the occasional
> support of Urasawa's thrillers, and I *really* want someone to start
> publishing Ueshiba Riichi here, since he has such a skewed mind...
>
> Yeah, I'd probably buy more if I weren't on a tight budget, but those
> are my current ongoing interests..
(nod) You might want to check if there's a way to get discount manga in your
city. Living in Ottawa, I get mine through a wholesaler who gives me 30% off
the cover price for anything I get, so I get a few things every couple of
weeks and have slowly been amassing and finishing stuff I've wanted for ages
(Please Save My Earth and Here is Greenwood, pour l'example).
-
Blade
Blade
"Freezer" <free...@hotSPAMTHISmail.com> wrote in message
> If I don't respond to this The Wanderer post, the terrorists win.
>
>> How can the answer to a "yes"/"no" question also be the answer to a
>> "how"/"why" question?
>
> Because he's right and the rest of us are "silly".
Just certain arguments are. And yes, I'm right. You realise I would not be
arguing the point unless I believed this? And you would not be arguing with
me unless you believed you were right?
-
Blade
Jorge A Pratt
> Jorge A Pratt wrote:
>
>> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> escribió en el mensaje de
>> noticias news:WdqdnbhdTdjrqP3V...@comcast.com...
>>> * Ranma and Akane denying having feelings for one another, and
>>> getting into misunderstandings and fights at the drop of a hat.
>>> Things had not necessarily returned to that state when the series
>>> ended, but given how often they have made progress and then
>>> regressed abruptly, something very strong would be needed to
>>> indicate that the same thing would not happen again - and so far as
>>> I recall having seen or heard, nothing strong enough seems to have
>>> been presented.
>>
>> But it did. The end was the major breakthrough which finally got them
>> to admit their feelings.
>
> What event are you talking about? I don't remember anything specific,
> and the only things I can think of that you might be meaning by "the
> end" are "the fact that the series ended" (which is fourth-wall-breaking
> and doesn't make much sense anyway) and the "walking into the
> sunset/sunrise" which I infer from earlier comments was the closing
> scene.
Well, by "the end" I meant the last arc, which included the declaration of
love and the willing participation in the wedding. But come to think of it,
that's a disservice to previous stories, such as the Shinnosuke arc, which
were the first serious breakthroughs (meaning the wedding was simply the
"major" one.)
>> Besides, their squabbling doesn't necessarily mean "regression." Even
>> the most tight of couples fight and call each other names; in the
>> Ranma 1/2 context, where the leads are as headstrong (and physically
>> resilient) as they are, this merely escalates to match. But anyone
>> who thinks that Ranma calling Akane "uncute tomboy," _after Ryugenzawa_,
>> means that he's regressed to a previous state is just
>> being contrary.
>
> That may well be the case. I'm not sure that I really disagree with the
> core of the perspective I'm arguing against anyway, just with some
> (perhaps many) of its manifestations. There almost certainly are people
> who do sincerely believe that, but probably not nearly as many as there
> are people who subscribe to the Akane Is Vile And Disgusting school of
> thought and thus don't believe that he ever really meant it in the first
> place.
Yeah, because an internal (?) shout for someone who might have just died
isn't _really_ sincere. ;-)
The "Akane is Evil" faction has always annoyed me. Barring incidental
characters, Akane's probably the (actively) nicest character in the series,
going out of her way to help other people --including complete strangers, or
even outright enemies. Even Kasumi just stays in her little niche,
unperturbed. But Akane's leaps of logic and physical rebukes are always
exaggerated --or, to use a TV Tropes term, Flanderized-- beyond all
proportion.
>>> * Various outside factors, consisting primarily but not exclusively
>>> of the various rivals, acting to interfere with their getting
>>> together - whether indirectly, by drawing away the interest of one
>>> or the other,
>>
>> I don't remember any such instance. Akane's last crush was Tofuu,
>> then she shifted onto Ranma. Ranma never expressed any interest
>> whatsoever in ANYONE but Akane.
>
> I could point out Ryouga in the form of P-chan, and cite the others as
> distracting influences, but that would probably get bogged down fairly
> soon in either "stretching to make it fit" or simply my not being
> familiar enough with the source material.
Eh, yeah. Akane sees P-chan, she sees a pet. It's a point of contention with
Ranma (and really, only very early on,) but a pet isn't going to draw away
her romantic interest.
> Some people would unquestionably cite what Ranma did in the Reversal
> Jewel incident as "interest in someone other than Akane", in that he
> acted to get Shampoo's interest back when he'd lost it, but I don't
> think that that's necessarily a very strong argument.
True, because he was interested in getting Shampoo back to appease his ego,
not out of any real pursuit of Shampoo as a person.
Not one of his best moments, and that's saying a LOT.
>> The major problem with Shampoo clinging over Ranma was that Akane
>> would berate him for it, because of her own insecurities. Ranma
>> always rejected her --and after Jusendou, that's probably going to
>> get worse for her. Granted, Akane's assurance of Ranma's love could
>> go both ways: "Why are you letting her hug you?! I thought you loved
>> ME! *wham!*" or she could take the fight to Shampoo, like she always
>> should have done. We don't know that, admittedly. But I'd rather give
>> the benefit of the doubt.
>
> I probably would as well - while I'm nowhere near being one of the
> Knights of the True Fiancee, I do prefer that pairing over most others
> in Ranma fanfic. I do not, however, remember any indication of even
> *one* time in the series itself when she reacted in such a reasonable
> way, instead of taking the negative interpretation - and if anything the
> impression is that this got worse as time went on, not better.
She got rid of Shampoo or Kodachi personally only a few times in the series,
mostly because Ranma really _was_ incapacitated. Still, I think she berates
him (instead of the rivals) because any of the other girls would probably
cream her if she tried anything, so she vents on the target least likely to
retaliate.
It's also an admonition. I made an argument for this on the C&C for one of
Lawson's stories, but, basically, Ranma and Akane's verbal (and otherwise)
sparring is identical to a _normal_ couple's squabbling. Where a typical
human (say, Maison Ikkoku's Kyoko) would give her Significant Other a sharp
rap on the head for looking at another girl, the Ranma MADMs take it up a
notch, and kick someone into low-Earth orbit. They're superhuman martial
artists. That's what they DO. It doesn't mean anything else (despite what
Zen and "The Bitter End" posited.) In fact, it's precisely because these
overreactions are so extravagant and ludicrous, that the more realistic
instances (like Akane slapping Ranma over Shinnosuke) carry so much power
and meaning.
>> I'll wait for the list that Blade asked for. I'm holding myself back
>> from typing my own list of series-long conflicts that were dealt with
>> one way or another, whether people liked their resolutions or not.
>
> The issue isn't whether they were dealt with at all (though some people
> would probably say that some weren't). The issue is whether they were
> dealt with *convincingly* and *conclusively*. The former is probably at
> least partly subjective; the latter depends on the former.
Ah, okay. I can see that. While I defend the position that the Ranma 1/2
manga had an appropriate ending (and that I, personally, found it
satisfactory,) I also agree that Takahashi made plenty of mistakes in
narrative, plotting, and characterization.
>> Satisfactory ending or not, it WAS an ending, which is the crux of
>> this discussion.
>
> The question of whether or not it was an ending (as I understand it)
> hinges on whether or not the significant conflicts were satisfactorily
> resolved. Some people seem to think that they were. Many other people
> seem to think that they were not. As I said, "satisfactory" is subjective.
Fair enough.
>> People should save the "non-ending" qualification for the _anime_.
>
> Okay. What precisely are the differences between the manga and the anime
> in this respect?
>
> This seems like the sort of thing which would probably have gotten a
> definitive online treatment at some point (if only in a newsgroup post),
> but I haven't run across one.
Basically, the anime ran out at the conclusion of Nodoka's introduction,
early in vol. 21, and then stopped very abruptly. A few of the OAVs adapted
some of the later manga stories (showing some dubious judgment in they chose
to animate) but even _then_, the last OAV was a mild "relationship" chapter
about a cursed doll from vol. 32. It came nowhere near the actual end of the
manga.
A person who only knows the anime (with or without the OAVs) would have
every right to say that Ranma 1/2 never ended. It just _stopped_. Other
animated series that abandon the manga partway at least try to write a
decent stand-alone conclusion (Planetes is probably the best, and brightest,
example of this.)
>> It's possibly _because_ I prefer "and life goes on" endings that I
>> really liked Ranma, and was left cold by Inuyasha. No, wait, I take
>> that back. IY was more of a "Finally, that's over! Took long enough!"
>> sort of relief, but that's another--
>>
>> --oh, wait. It IS part of this discussion ;-)
>
> Frankly, while I liked Inuyasha initially, by now I find it more
> valuable as source material for well-done fanfics than as anything else.
The continued output of R1/2 fanfic suggests the same for this series. Not
that I complain: there's plenty of fanfics I really enjoy, and the world is
bursting with possibilities for expansion.
I wonder, though... many of the post-ending R1/2 fics attempt to deal with
the loose ends, to various degrees of success. With IY over and done with, I
have to wonder how fanfic will deal with the monstrously huge plot points
that its own ending failed to resolve.
--
Jorge A. Pratt
Megane
Captain Nerd <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
> Yep, the only question is how and why... are two questions, how, why
> and when... are *three* questions... Let me start again.
>
> How, why and when Kikyu finally died is probably somewhere in the
> 50 or so volumes of the takubon.
Great. So when does the Cliff's Notes version come out? You could
probably write an entire novel's worth of words just _summarizing_ the
entire manga series.
Megane
wrote:
> > If that's true, why did some of the crash the wedding? Surely if they
> > were happy with these "love interests", they would have let Ramna and
> > Akane get married in peace, ne? So, clearly there's a problem there
> > somewhere.
>
> Set up the major rivals with love interests. Their issues are not resolved
> yet, neither are Ranma or Akane's (which is why they argued). That doesn't
> change that the rivals were indeed set up with love interests, and you'd
> have to be basically ignoring blatent authorial intent to say otherwise.
I was discussing this with someone the other day. He said that off the
"issues" brought up during the series, about the only thing that
actually got resolved* was that Ranma's mother finally accepted his
stituation. Sort of.
Then I said that it sounded like a perfect setup for a "My Name Is Earl"
type show (at which point I had to explain MNIE since he hadn't heard of
it), with Ranma writing up his list on a piece of yellow paper and every
week he tries to mark off one more bit of unfinished business.
*I'm relying on my memory of what he said here, having watched barely
any Ranma, and having never read any of the manga.