Already sick of American/Japanese hybrids
LoganColt
"anime."
More and more American copycats seem to be popping up. UPN (Unwatched
Program Network) is producing a new cartoon based on an American comic
called "Rat Bastard." They claim the series is done, "...in the style
of Japanese anime." Do they think we're stupid? Do they seriously
think they can stick big eyes on a character and we'll watch? I haven't
read the comic, I haven't seen the show and I already hate it!
Peter Chung (Mr. Aeon Flux) is producing a series of commercials for
Checkers fast food. The article claimed the ads were in the style of
"Japanimation." Who still uses that word? It's so old it's offensive
and should be treated as an ignorant slur.
ADV (Awful Dub Version) has Japanese studios working on SIN and Lady
Death. I'm pretty sure SIN isn't a Japanese game and I KNOW Lady Death
is a horrible American comic fixated on the massive boobage of it's
pasty-faced heroine (yes, I've read this comic). Is this anime?
Now Production IG is being paid to do an animated movie based on Nine
Rings of the Wu-Tang (yes, a comic with characters from the hip-hop
group). Wu-Tang has about 1 or 2 issues on the stands and I've read
them. The art is great but the story is still craptastic. The movie
script is being written by the same guy who did Disney's Tarzan. Are
the Wu-Tang going to break into a song every 5 minutes? Maybe.
If any of what I've mentioned above qualifies under the official
definition of "anime" I'll renounce my fandom right now and quit.
Manga, anime, J-pop, sushi, everything. I'm so mad about these rip-offs
I could easily maim Matt Greenfield (he killed John-John, you know) with
my bare hands. If you want to talk opportunity costs, what is the cost
of Nine Rings of the Wu-Tang? Ghost in the Shell 2: Man Machine
Interface, that's what! For every craptastic American movie Production
IG gets paid to do, they can't start production on Masamune Shirow's
latest manga masterpiece or any other potentially great Japanese
creation.
I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
this madness.
Michi-chan
>
> Peter Chung (Mr. Aeon Flux) is producing a series of commercials for
> Checkers fast food. The article claimed the ads were in the style of
> "Japanimation." Who still uses that word? It's so old it's offensive
> and should be treated as an ignorant slur.
Tell that to the Japanese newspapers that use that term.
--
Michi-chan
who remembers seeing it in at least Nikkan Sports and Sankei Sports
The Realm of Shadow - http://members.home.net/ztsukino/
J-music - http://members.home.net/ztsukino/music/
SPEED, Long Way Home and Carry On my way - final single and album
SPEED wa, eien da yo...
hiro, Bright Daylight - 2nd solo maxisingle, on sale 2.16.00!
KK
LoganColt wrote:
> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> "anime."
>
Easy, you need to listen instead of look, if the characters aren't SPEAKING
Japanese it's not anime. (and no I don't want to argue about dubs, because
personally
I think if you're watching a dub you're missing half the show).
Danielle
KK wrote in message <3885BF07...@cis.ysu.edu>...
Amen to that! ^_~ I only have one question about all of this, what about
_Neon Cyber_? Where does it fall in all of this and does it--and others like
it--potentially change the debate?
Danielle
eirias
>
> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> "anime."
While I agree these aren't anime, I don't think they're worth pitching a
screaming fit about.
> ADV (Awful Dub Version)
Haven't seen any of their recent dubs, have you ?
Ruri aside, and the main character's names aside, the Nadesico dub is
highly watchable, and I actually like Yurika's voice better. She's not
so screamingly stupid ALL the time.
> Now Production IG is being paid to do an animated movie based on Nine
> Rings of the Wu-Tang (yes, a comic with characters from the hip-hop
> group). Wu-Tang has about 1 or 2 issues on the stands and I've read
> them. The art is great but the story is still craptastic. The movie
> script is being written by the same guy who did Disney's Tarzan. Are
> the Wu-Tang going to break into a song every 5 minutes? Maybe.
Production IG's made good stuff out of bad comics before. Nadesico, for
example. And Tarzan was a blast...
--
President of the BU Anime Club: http://members.xoom.com/BUAnime/
Manga translations for 1 volume of Yokohama Shopping Diary,
~8 full volumes and 2 scanned issues of The Violinist of Hamelin,
Vol 13 of Berserk, and a scanned, retouched short story from Ace:
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/translations/
Arnold Kim
----------
>I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
>"anime."
>
>More and more American copycats seem to be popping up. UPN (Unwatched
>Program Network) is producing a new cartoon based on an American comic
>called "Rat Bastard." They claim the series is done, "...in the style
>of Japanese anime." Do they think we're stupid? Do they seriously
>think they can stick big eyes on a character and we'll watch? I haven't
>read the comic, I haven't seen the show and I already hate it!
They said that it's "in the style of japanese anime" which is a rather broad
statement with a lot of wiggle room. They could be saying animation style,
design style, story style. The term "style" in terms of anime can be so
broad that I usually take it with a grain of salt anyway. And besides,
who's to say that the show and the comic aren't pretty good?
Though I prefer people not to use "anime style" so liberally, it's nothing
to get worked up over. Certainly nothing to leave fandom over. We're
always going to be here.
>Peter Chung (Mr. Aeon Flux) is producing a series of commercials for
>Checkers fast food. The article claimed the ads were in the style of
>"Japanimation." Who still uses that word? It's so old it's offensive
>and should be treated as an ignorant slur.
"Japanimation" isn't offensive, considering the way most people pronounce it
("Japan-imation" as opposed to "Jap-animation"). What it is is highly
moronic, but I won't chastise people for using the terminology. Some people
outside of the anime fold just don't know that "anime" is a better term.
>ADV (Awful Dub Version) has Japanese studios working on SIN and Lady
>Death. I'm pretty sure SIN isn't a Japanese game and I KNOW Lady Death
>is a horrible American comic fixated on the massive boobage of it's
>pasty-faced heroine (yes, I've read this comic). Is this anime?
Probably not, but why should it bother you?
>Now Production IG is being paid to do an animated movie based on Nine
>Rings of the Wu-Tang (yes, a comic with characters from the hip-hop
>group). Wu-Tang has about 1 or 2 issues on the stands and I've read
>them. The art is great but the story is still craptastic. The movie
>script is being written by the same guy who did Disney's Tarzan. Are
>the Wu-Tang going to break into a song every 5 minutes? Maybe.
You gotta give Tarzan some credit here. You even see the movie? One real
musical "number" in the entire film, and that's basically only because Rosie
O'Donnell wanted to do one.
>If any of what I've mentioned above qualifies under the official
>definition of "anime" I'll renounce my fandom right now and quit.
You know, this is not much to get worked over. Even the people behind much
of the stuff you mention aren't going as far as saying their work _is_
anime, and most of the "real" anime fans know the difference between Rat
Bastard and, say, Urusei Yatsura anyway. So what does it matter?
Arnold Kim
Miki no Miko
KK <kku...@cis.ysu.edu> wrote in message
news:3885BF07...@cis.ysu.edu...
>
>
> LoganColt wrote:
>
> > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> > "anime."
> >
>
SPEAKING
> Japanese it's not anime. (and no I don't want to argue about dubs, because
> personally
> I think if you're watching a dub you're missing half the show).
Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
--
Miki no Miko
I've been BIT! by an Erich Owens!
And an Adrian Tymes!
Oh yeah, and a Pook! too. ^_^
MoonieCode(1.12.05) SM:5[6]
F:sSa<[++]Se>[++]:vGa[+]Al>:aDi>[++]Pe[+]:pGx>[+++]S>[++]
D:sCh>[---]Me<[-]:aSh[-]Ch[-]:pSS<[-]Cl<[-] X:[*]:aSSS*s[+]|ClRd[+]:m5s
O:d--:s--:o?:a-:h+++:x++ P:a13:s54:w165:eBrg:hBrL:t--:cWh:*Cp:x+++H:r[+]|[+]
Chika
LoganColt <Loga...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> "anime."
Why bother? If it is shite, then don't watch it! Wonderful things, off
buttons! ^_^
--
/\ Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... What are you doing?!? The message is over,GO AWAY!
Avery Davies
LoganColt wrote:
>
> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> "anime."
How about the Japanese definition - "All animation is anime, including
Disney"?
--
This is the Avery Davies within your computer.
'Tyler's words coming out of my mouth. I used to be such a nice person.'
- Jack, Fight Club
Jeff Williams
Amen brother. See my other post on that other thread that popped up
today about American anime. I don't really care to nail down a
specific definition of anime, but I do think it should be left to those
that originated it and those that know how to do it right - which ain't
us.
Put it on a t-shirt, I'll buy one.
--
// Jeff Williams
// ge...@nervhq.org
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Taba-kun
> "anime."
> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>
> this madness.
I resent that. ^^;
Yeesh, what extremist behavior. Yeah, there's some crap out there, but
you can't take away every artist's right to be inspired by anime. Some
artists give their characters big eyes and call it "anime" just to cash
in on a trend, but MOST of us have been genuinely inspired by Japanese
comics and know what we're doing. You at least know who Robert DeJesus
is, right? Or Adam Warren?
And as far as I know, Peter Chung himself never referred to his work as
"Japanimation," just some authors and reporters who didn't know any
better.
And ADV has every right to get a Japanese Studio to produce an American-
written video. A few episodes of Batman and Animaniacs were animated by
TMS, you know. Care to write to Warner Bros. and complain?
Les
--
DELETE! | http://wendy-project.com/
"People don't choose their careers; they are engulfed by them."
JOHN DOS PASSOS
Enrique Conty
"Keep America for Americans".
Go away.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@enteract.com
http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
Official Home of The Great Anime Sub Sale
Farix
> If any of what I've mentioned above qualifies under the official
> definition of "anime" I'll renounce my fandom right now and quit.
Go right ahead. We don't need close minded jerks like you giving the rest
of us a bad reputation.
Farix
Invid Fan
<pupp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> LoganColt wrote:
> >
> > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> > "anime."
>
> How about the Japanese definition - "All animation is anime, including
> Disney"?
And remember, "anime" isn't a word that signifies that something is
good. There's more crap anime then crap US animation, if only because
they produce so many more shows then we do.
--
Chris Mack "You do NOT, I repeat, do NOT ask a guest in my
'Invid Fan' home to make a PILLAR OF FIRE!!"
"I asked him IF he knew how!! IF! IF! IF!!"
In...@localnet.com -Cerebus:Jaka's Story
Jim Lazar
LoganColt <Loga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:388579AA...@aol.com...
> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> "anime."
>
> More and more American copycats seem to be popping up. UPN (Unwatched
> Program Network) is producing a new cartoon based on an American comic
> called "Rat Bastard." They claim the series is done, "...in the style
> of Japanese anime." Do they think we're stupid? Do they seriously
> think they can stick big eyes on a character and we'll watch? I haven't
> read the comic, I haven't seen the show and I already hate it!
Then it's not anime, it's anime-style. There is a difference. To me, it'll
come down to the final products, but I'll admit that Japanese animation made
for Japanese audiences by Japanese artists appeals to me much more than
dumbed down American animation, no matter what the style.
If the story sucks, the greatest animation in the world won't save it. Of
couse, bad animation can also ruin a good story.
> ADV (Awful Dub Version) has Japanese studios working on SIN and Lady
> Death. I'm pretty sure SIN isn't a Japanese game and I KNOW Lady Death
> is a horrible American comic fixated on the massive boobage of it's
> pasty-faced heroine (yes, I've read this comic). Is this anime?
Nope. But then who said ADV is an anime only company?
> Now Production IG is being paid to do an animated movie based on Nine
> Rings of the Wu-Tang (yes, a comic with characters from the hip-hop
> group). Wu-Tang has about 1 or 2 issues on the stands and I've read
> them. The art is great but the story is still craptastic. The movie
> script is being written by the same guy who did Disney's Tarzan. Are
> the Wu-Tang going to break into a song every 5 minutes? Maybe.
I haven't seen Tarzan, but I was under the impression that they didn't have
the characters singing songs and that Disney was moving away from musicals.
Am I mistaken?
But so what? It's not 'anime', but it may or may not be good. Rings of
Wu-tang is a US comic, right? If so , then it wouldn't be anime in my book.
And by the way you describe it, a reall bad comic book.
> If any of what I've mentioned above qualifies under the official
> definition of "anime" I'll renounce my fandom right now and quit.
There really is no 'official' definition of anime.
From a Japanese person's standpoint, any and all animation is 'anime'.
From a US fan's standpoint, many of us see 'anime' as indicating animation
from Japan.
To me, "anime" is animation produced in Japan for a Japanese audience by
Japanese animators. At the point it starts to become animation aimed at a US
or worldwide audience it becomes just 'animation'. It may be good or not,
but it isn't anime to me.
So if US companies use Japanese animators to make their movies/shows, it's
not anime to me. It may or may not be good, but I won't call it anime.
If US companies provide Japanese stuidios money to make movies/shows, but do
not provide the story/script/direction, it's still probably anime in my
eyes. BGC 2040 is an example of ADV just funding the production, I don't
think ADV sent the scripts to Japan.
Of course, anything brought over to the US from Japan should be left
unedited and unaltered as much as possible reguardless of what you want to
call it.
CMDR2 Jimm
Duke of Dispersion. An anime fan without otaku aftertaste.
"Ah, yes, my friend the squeegee! I love you!" -Crow T. Robot
"Why are you saying things that I don't understand?" -Nuku-Nuku
Bruce Linley
>In article <3885FF14...@earthlink.net>, Avery Davies
><pupp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> LoganColt wrote:
>> >
>> > "anime."
>>
>> Disney"?
>
>And remember, "anime" isn't a word that signifies that something is
>good. There's more crap anime then crap US animation, if only because
>they produce so many more shows then we do.
Japan also produces a lot more manga too. What was it? 30% of all
printed matter in Japan is manga? And subway trains in Japan are an
excellent source of discarded manga. :)
--
Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Tea is always bitter but...
linley at megami dot org | | |NV | UT | blood is warm and sweet."
Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ |
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | - Miyu
Robert Hutchinson
> KK wrote ...
> > LoganColt wrote:
> >
> > > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> > > "anime."
> >
> > SPEAKING Japanese it's not anime. (and no I don't want to argue about
> > dubs, because personally I think if you're watching a dub you're
> > missing half the show).
>
> Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
> stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
Probably not. I don't see what it has to do with KK's comment, though.
Robert Hutchinson
Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
Jojo
> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> "anime."
> (Unwatched
> Program Network) is producing a new cartoon based on an American
> comic
> called "Rat Bastard." They claim the series is done, "...in the
> style
> of Japanese anime." Do they think we're stupid? Do they seriously
> think they can stick big eyes on a character and we'll watch? I
> haven't
> read the comic, I haven't seen the show and I already hate it!
You're right. Ripping on another style too closely gets pretty cheap at
times. Even though Japanese anime girls' eyes owe a lot to Bambi and
the such, they took the art in another direction so they did look
distinctively different from Disney and American cartoons. It's okay to
borrow some elements, but Americans should really just try to develop
their existing styles. Remember that animated super-mom commercial? I
forgot what they were advertising, but it took a traditional comic book
style and animated it. It looked intriguing, and I wa surprised more
people didn't try using that style.
> ADV (Awful Dub Version) has Japanese studios working on SIN and
> Lady
> Death. I'm pretty sure SIN isn't a Japanese game and I KNOW Lady
> Death
> is a horrible American comic fixated on the massive boobage of it's
> pasty-faced heroine (yes, I've read this comic). Is this anime?
Big cleavage shots and a cute heroine? Yup, that seems to be
representative of a lot of anime. Should be funny, but I'm not a Lady
Death fan.
Jojo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
tablesalt
eirias wrote:
> > ADV (Awful Dub Version)
>
> Haven't seen any of their recent dubs, have you ?
> Ruri aside, and the main character's names aside, the Nadesico dub is
> highly watchable, and I actually like Yurika's voice better. She's not
> so screamingly stupid ALL the time.
Acting wise, ADV is one of the best dubbers (even though it took them 10
years to get it right ;))
The problem lies with the less then accurate scripts...
tablesalt
Disruptor
> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>
> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
> this madness.
tsktsk. No Studio Ghibli, since they were founded BECAUSE of an
American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
in Japan.
Danielle
Japanese and American animators, an American band (America, actually, ^_^),
and based on a book written by a Brit. Pretty diverse there. I don't think
that there is much of a problem. If it shite, it's shite, and if it's not...
who cares who made it? So um, the country of origin (that's not spelled
right. How do I spell that?) doesn't really seem to matter all that much,
really, in the grand scheme of things.
Danielle
Disruptor wrote in message <38864E...@gte.net>...
Invid Fan
Louis Patterson <l...@students.cs.mu.OZ.AU> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Disruptor wrote:
>
> >LoganColt wrote:
> >
> >> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
> >>
> >> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
> >> this madness.
> >tsktsk. No Studio Ghibli, since they were founded BECAUSE of an
> >American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
> >getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
> >are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
> >in Japan.
>
> No: The point is: what does it matter? There's *never* any need to
> draw any sort of line unless you're a legislator.
>
For some fans, hating 'domestic' animation is a badge of honor. "Me? I
don't like CARTOONS *snort* I like _ANIME_!" It's a phase many of us go
though. I grew out of it a decade ago :)
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <190120001431549069%in...@localnet.com>, Invid Fan
<in...@localnet.com> wrote:
>In article <3885FF14...@earthlink.net>, Avery Davies
><pupp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> LoganColt wrote:
>> >
>> > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
>> > "anime."
>>
>> How about the Japanese definition - "All animation is anime, including
>> Disney"?
>
>And remember, "anime" isn't a word that signifies that something is
>good. There's more crap anime then crap US animation, if only because
>they produce so many more shows then we do.
But of course, just because it's crap doesn't mean I can't like it... :)
Arnold Kim
Louis Patterson
>LoganColt wrote:
>
>> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>>
>> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
>> this madness.
>tsktsk. No Studio Ghibli, since they were founded BECAUSE of an
>American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
>getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
>are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
>in Japan.
No: The point is: what does it matter? There's *never* any need to
draw any sort of line unless you're a legislator.
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l...@students.cs.mu.oz.au
Animeg3282
>Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
>stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
>
Don't mind them. Everyone has to find something to feel proud of, even if it's
as silly as what format they prefer Japanese cartoons in.
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both my main
home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
David Crowe
: LoganColt wrote:
: > I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
: >
: > I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
: > this madness.
: tsktsk. No Studio Ghibli, since they were founded BECAUSE of an
: American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
: getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
: are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
: in Japan.
The origin of the Transformers is a long, interesting tale. Takara did a
line of transforming toys called "Car Robot" which was only so-so
saleswise. Hasbro brought it over here and combined it with some other
toy lines (as they did with Shogun Warriors), made up the Cybertron story
and called it Transformers. It went over big, both here and in Japan.
The original cartoons were produced (in the "money and ideas" sense) here
and animated by (among others) Toei.
After the TV series stopped here, it continued in Japan with "purely"
Japanese episodes and later an OVA series.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"I guess justice comes before pastries."
-Umi Ryuzaki
Otto
wrote:
>In article <Pine.GSO.4.05.100012...@cat.cs.mu.OZ.AU>,
>Louis Patterson <l...@students.cs.mu.OZ.AU> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Disruptor wrote:
>>
>> >LoganColt wrote:
>> >
>> >> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>> >>
>> >> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
>> >> this madness.
>> >tsktsk. No Studio Ghibli, since they were founded BECAUSE of an
>> >American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
>> >getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
>> >are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
>> >in Japan.
>>
>> No: The point is: what does it matter? There's *never* any need to
>> draw any sort of line unless you're a legislator.
>>
>For some fans, hating 'domestic' animation is a badge of honor. "Me? I
>don't like CARTOONS *snort* I like _ANIME_!" It's a phase many of us go
>though. I grew out of it a decade ago :)
This is usually right after the "Japanimation is SO KEWL!!!11!!1!!!1
My favorite ones are AKIRA and NINJA SCROLL!!!!!11!!11!!!" phase.
Commodore Otto
Commander X
I had the "Well I just saw Ninja Scroll and GitS and those were pretty neat"
phrase. But I never got into that "Americans only make bad cartoons Anime is
way cooler" phase. Thankfully.
This LoganColt whiner though, he'll never get out of his rut. I betcha he's the
kind of fan who'll blow a gasket if someone refers to anime as "cartoons". You
know what I mean: "HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THE HIGH ART OF ANIME TO THAT KIDDIE
FLUFF?!?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dyslexic man sells soul to Santa... Film at 11."
Commander X
>For some fans, hating 'domestic' animation is a badge of honor. "Me? I
>don't like CARTOONS *snort* I like _ANIME_!" It's a phase many of us go
>though. I grew out of it a decade ago :)
Also, for some fans, trashing all aspects of American anime distribution and
translation and what have you is another one of those oh so annoying badges of
honor:
"American anime companies suck cause they're only interested in the money and I
hate their work and I hate their translations and I don't like to pay the
prices and (insert Highly Visible Company Person of the Moment) should be
fired/killed for their crap work and it's all because Americans are dumb and
need to have things watered down for them but I'm oh so smarter and open-minded
and enlightend and culturally aware than the great unwashed hoi polloi who need
to have everything dubbed and repackaged for them!"
I like to refer to anime as cartoons as much as possible around these
self-important whiners because I know it gets the veins in their foreheads
throbbin' to hear their precious anime refered to as such.
Emi Melissa Briet
>
> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
> this madness.
At AnimeIowa '99, where Hiroshi Aro was guest of honor, it was revealed
that it's possible an American studio will produce either an animated or
live-action series based on "Futaba's Change"...talks are already
underway.
-Emi
--
Emi Briet -- Ameritech.net's kawaii techie-chan! ^_^
Keep your ear to the radio, and keep hot water with you at all times!
RanmaCode[1.3]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS X++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#antijen H F:+
a27 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E ma+ M w++ N,IE
NEil Phillips
>I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
>"anime."
>
>More and more American copycats seem to be popping up. UPN (Unwatched
>Program Network) is producing a new cartoon based on an American comic
>called "Rat Bastard." They claim the series is done, "...in the style
>of Japanese anime." Do they think we're stupid? Do they seriously
>think they can stick big eyes on a character and we'll watch? I haven't
>read the comic, I haven't seen the show and I already hate it!
You havent' seen it.. but you're too 'leet to like it.
Everyone is influenced by everything else. Is a japanese influence on
american animation a bad thing?
--
NEil
(phil...@gwbbs.net.au)
(This line left unintentionally blank)
Did the world end yet?
I wasn't paying attention..
KK
Miki no Miko wrote:
> KK <kku...@cis.ysu.edu> wrote in message
> news:3885BF07...@cis.ysu.edu...
> >
> >
> > LoganColt wrote:
> >
> > > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> > > "anime."
> > >
> >
> > Easy, you need to listen instead of look, if the characters aren't
> SPEAKING
> > Japanese it's not anime. (and no I don't want to argue about dubs, because
> > personally
> > I think if you're watching a dub you're missing half the show).
>
> Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
> stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
I don't recall saying any of those things, everyone likes anime for different
reasons, if you likedubs, great. I just think the voice acting in the original
Japanese is too good to be missed out
on, if you want to miss out go ahead, like I said I don't want to argue.
>
>
> --
> Miki no Miko
> I've been BIT! by an Erich Owens!
> And an Adrian Tymes!
> Oh yeah, and a Pook! too. ^_^
>
> MoonieCode(1.12.05) SM:5[6]
> F:sSa<[++]Se>[++]:vGa[+]Al>:aDi>[++]Pe[+]:pGx>[+++]S>[++]
> D:sCh>[---]Me<[-]:aSh[-]Ch[-]:pSS<[-]Cl<[-] X:[*]:aSSS*s[+]|ClRd[+]:m5s
> O:d--:s--:o?:a-:h+++:x++ P:a13:s54:w165:eBrg:hBrL:t--:cWh:*Cp:x+++H:r[+]|[+]
KK
Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> Miki no Miko wrote:
> > KK wrote ...
> > > LoganColt wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> > > > "anime."
> > >
> > > Easy, you need to listen instead of look, if the characters aren't
> > > SPEAKING Japanese it's not anime. (and no I don't want to argue about
> > > dubs, because personally I think if you're watching a dub you're
> > > missing half the show).
> >
> > Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
> > stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
>
> Probably not. I don't see what it has to do with KK's comment, though.
Nothing, thank you.
>
>
> Robert Hutchinson
> Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster could also bedeaf
or were you thinking of two others?
KK
Animeg3282 wrote:
> Miki no Miko said:
>
> >Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
> >stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
> >
>
> Don't mind them.
Well I hope you don't think I'm one of 'them', because I'm not.
> Everyone has to find something to feel proud of, even if it's
> as silly as what format they prefer Japanese cartoons in.
>
> Hana no Kaitou
> Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
> Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
> http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
> http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both my main
> home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
Fan-si la la...do do do ^_^
Enrique Conty
Enrique Conty <co...@enteract.com> wrote:
>>American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
>>getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
>>are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
>>in Japan.
>
>since they were made taking American markets into consideration.
Oh, no Ghost in the Shell either, *that* was financed by Manga Entertainment.
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <emiofbrie-49EEA...@news.earthlink.net>, Emi Melissa
Briet <emio...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>>
>> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
>> this madness.
>
>At AnimeIowa '99, where Hiroshi Aro was guest of honor, it was revealed
>that it's possible an American studio will produce either an animated or
>live-action series based on "Futaba's Change"...talks are already
>underway.
O_o
And I thought a live action Ranma would never happen because it's "too
wierd" for american audiences...
Arnold Kim
Enrique Conty
>> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
>getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
>are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
>in Japan.
No Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, Pokemon, or pretty much *any* Pioneer anime,
since they were made taking American markets into consideration.
--
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <20000120020512...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
ngav...@aol.com.NGAVR (Commander X) wrote:
>Otto (otto...@the.couch) wrote:
>
>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:13:41 -0800, Invid >>Fan <in...@localnet.com>
>>>wrote:
>
>>>In article <Pine.GSO.4.05.100012...@cat.cs.mu.OZ.AU>,
>>>Louis Patterson <l...@students.cs.mu.OZ.AU> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Disruptor wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >LoganColt wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to
>>stop
>>>> >> this madness.
>>>> >tsktsk. No Studio Ghibli, since they were founded BECAUSE of an
>>>> >American show: 'The Last Unicorn'. Then there's the one show that keeps
>>>> >getting mixed up with anime: 'Jayce & The Wheeled Warriors'. Then there
>>>> >are shows like Transformers that started out over here and went onwards
>>>> >in Japan.
>>>>
>>>> No: The point is: what does it matter? There's *never* any need to
>>>> draw any sort of line unless you're a legislator.
>>>>
>>>For some fans, hating 'domestic' animation is a badge of honor. "Me? I
>>>don't like CARTOONS *snort* I like _ANIME_!" It's a phase many of us go
>>>though. I grew out of it a decade ago :)
>>
>>This is usually right after the "Japanimation is SO KEWL!!!11!!1!!!1
>>My favorite ones are AKIRA and NINJA SCROLL!!!!!11!!11!!!" phase
>
>I had the "Well I just saw Ninja Scroll and GitS and those were pretty neat"
I still think they are pretty neat, but thankfully I expanded upon that. :)
>phrase. But I never got into that "Americans only make bad cartoons Anime is
>way cooler" phase. Thankfully.
Me neither. They're very different they way things are now. Sure, they're
trying to blur the distinctions, but certain differences in strengths
remain. And this is not to say that the US isn't _capable_ of reaching the
quality of anime.
Arnold Kim
David Watson
> ----------
> In article <388579AA...@aol.com>, LoganColt <Loga...@aol.com> wrote:
>>ADV (Awful Dub Version) has Japanese studios working on SIN and Lady
>>Death. I'm pretty sure SIN isn't a Japanese game and I KNOW Lady Death
>>is a horrible American comic fixated on the massive boobage of it's
>>pasty-faced heroine (yes, I've read this comic). Is this anime?
Sorry to drag my other case here, but my concerns about these titles have
nowt to do with purity of anime. If one, the other or both of these tank,
I hope they don't try to cut their losses by cutting out sub VHS before
it's time. Should this scenario actually happen, ADV, remember this:
Don't fuck over your main audience because they didn't buy into your
flights of fancy.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (Re-release the _Stretcher_ EP!)
Frezier Balzoff (Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
FOUR MORE YEARS OF MIKE HARRIS' FASCISM?? ONTARIO! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
LoganColt
you? Besides, don't you get sick of listening to the same voices on
ADV's dubs? I sure as heck do.
LoganColt
Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
American fluff with the Japanese style. That's because they think we're
gullible. They're in their offices saying, "This Japanimation stuff is
pretty hot. If we can make our stuff look like that, we'll sell a whole
lot more to these opaku-kuns or whatever." Most of the people on this
message board are looking at this from a cold, emotionless, business
perspective. That's fine if you're a business.
I'm a hobbyist. I like what the Japanese creators, writers, animators
and the like can do by themselves. America hasn't shown much in the way
of animated entertainment for 19 year-olds. It's all fine and good if
American companies like Manga want to invest in making the next Ghost in
the Shell. That's great. If Japan needs more money to make their
special magic, help em' out.
It's these American creators swiping the Japanese style (either by
hiring a Japanese studio or doing it themselves) that tick me off. You
may not see it, but they could effectively alter the course of
animation. What if newbies start thinking Rat Bastard is better than
Evangelion? Soon there will be a whole batch of American/Japanese
hybrids, none of which retain the same quality and emotion as their
purebred Japanese counterparts.
I like characters with names like Shinji, Kenshin, Shinobu, Lain, or
whatever. I like the Japanese temples and cities. I like it when a 15
year-old girl sounds like a 15 year-old girl. I like it when Japanese
characters eat their food with chopsticks. I like it when a show makes
me question my own existence. I don't see Rat Bastard, SIN, Lady Death,
or Checkers fast food doing that anytime in the near future.
American animation just can't entertain like Japanese animation. That's
why we're here.
LoganColt
in the Shell with American fans in mind. That's why Ghost in the Shell
is so great. Manga didn't write it for Production IG to animate.
Japanese creators. Japanese animators. That's what's important.
Pokemon was created as a video game. It was ABSOLUTELY NOT created with
American game fans in mind. Nintendo had SEVERE reservations about
importing (or deporting) the game and the show. They didn't think
American fans would get the Japanese style of animation! Now they think
they can stick big eyes on everything.
If what you're saying about Bebop and Evangelion are true, then who
knows how much better they could have been if they were created
exclusively for Japanese audiences.
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
>
> Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster could also bedeaf
> or were you thinking of two others?
One would be extended stretches of English (or another language) in an
anime. The other would be an anime that featured no dialogue. (At least one
exists, IIRC.)
Robert Hutchinson
Erin Cochran
wrote:
> It's these American creators swiping the Japanese style (either by
> hiring a Japanese studio or doing it themselves) that tick me off.
> You may not see it, but they could effectively alter the course of
> animation. What if newbies start thinking Rat Bastard is better
> than Evangelion?
Does it make a difference? A given individual's opinion doesn't have
to change.
> Soon there will be a whole batch of
> American/Japanese hybrids, none of which retain the same quality
> and emotion as their purebred Japanese counterparts.
There's really no way to tell if they'd have the same "quality and
emotion" or not. Plenty of "purebred" anime are pretty lousy,
after all. And some would argue that there's American animation
out there that's quality material.
> American animation just can't entertain like Japanese animation.
> That's why we're here.
Some of us, like myself, are quite capable of liking both. (Or
rather, certain examples of both.) Japan doesn't have a patent
on quality, in regard to animation or otherwise. I mean, it's fine
if you or someone else doesn't care for American animation, but
it doesn't mean mixing the two is sacrilage or is incapable of
providing entertainment value to someone. It isn't anime, but
as to it's quality, it might suck, it might not. <shrug>
Erin Cochran
ecoc...@knox.edu
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Invid Fan
wrote:
> I think an inaccurate script qualifies as a pretty big problem, don't
> you?
So's a horrible original Japanese script. What's your point? :)
> Besides, don't you get sick of listening to the same voices on
> ADV's dubs? I sure as heck do.
And I'm tired of hearing the same Japanese voices all the time. Can't
Miss Nuku/Rei/Lina Inverse retire?
Talen
>The otaku death squade strikes again.
What's a Squade?
>Duke of Dispersion. An anime fan without otaku aftertaste.
>
>"Ah, yes, my friend the squeegee! I love you!" -Crow T. Robot
>
>"Why are you saying things that I don't understand?" -Nuku-Nuku
Talen
Remove the b from .comb to e-mail
"Obtenez la Vache. Méfiez-vous du Fromage"
http://www.crosswinds.net/~kuroma/
http://www.crosswinds.net/~ksna/
Robert Hutchinson
>
> On 19 Jan 2000 22:00:07 GMT, cmdr...@aol.com (CMDR2 Jimm) wrote:
>
> >The otaku death squade strikes again.
>
> What's a Squade?
Can't we at least manage to call a squade a squade?
Robert Hutchinson
Is going to regret that one. Yep.
Disruptor
> If what you're saying about Bebop and Evangelion are true, then who
> knows how much better they could have been if they were created
> exclusively for Japanese audiences.
Grass is always greener...
Bad anime:
Crystal Triangle, Roots Search, Twilight of the Cockroaches, Dog
Soldier, Explorer Woman Ray, Tekkaman the Space Knight, Thunder Prince,
Towards the Terra
I'm quite sure others can add to the list of BAD animes.
As to the good cartoons in the U.S.:
Mighty Orbots, Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors, Dungeons & Dragons, the
recent Kids' WB cartoons, The Hobbit, Return of the King
The first two are constantly mixed up with with Japanese anime. The
Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond animated style is its own style, not anime
rip-off.(Influenced? yes. Rip-off? No.)
tablesalt
LoganColt wrote:
>
> I think an inaccurate script qualifies as a pretty big problem, don't
> you?
Yes, that's why I made a point of saying "acting wise," they're good.
Taking all things in to account; however, they rank a fair bit lower.
>Besides, don't you get sick of listening to the same voices on
> ADV's dubs? I sure as heck do.
I don't hear them that often, but I can see why that would be a problem.
tablesalt
tablesalt
> Should this scenario actually happen, ADV, remember this:
> Don't fuck over your main audience because they didn't buy into your
> flights of fancy.
They're "main audiance" are the casual veiwers that don't care about
these issues (and don't care about sub VHS for that matter) The fact
is: any company could alienate everyone on this news group and still
continue just fine with out us.
tablesalt
Jojo
> LoganColt wrote:
> > If what you're saying about Bebop and Evangelion are true, then
> who
> > knows how much better they could have been if they were created
> > exclusively for Japanese audiences.
> Grass is always greener...
> Bad anime:
> Crystal Triangle, Roots Search, Twilight of the Cockroaches, Dog
> Soldier, Explorer Woman Ray, Tekkaman the Space Knight, Thunder
> Prince,
> Towards the Terra
Well, this is mostly personal opinion, as there really is no such thing
as a bad something. With Tekkaman, you are referring to the original,
right? The update--Tekkaman Blade, was pretty good in my opinion.
> I'm quite sure others can add to the list of BAD animes.
> As to the good cartoons in the U.S.:
> Mighty Orbots, Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors, Dungeons & Dragons,
> the
> recent Kids' WB cartoons, The Hobbit, Return of the King
I was never an Animaniacs fan.
> The first two are constantly mixed up with with Japanese anime.
> The
> Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond animated style is its own style, not
> anime
> rip-off.(Influenced? yes. Rip-off? No.)
To tell the truth, my favourite Bruce Timm/Paul Dini superhero episodes
were the first few Batman episodes. I didn't like the progressive
simplification of Batman's costume, and the art direction and camera
shots became less stylish.
Jojo
Jojo
> > > Mighty Orbots, Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors, Dungeons &
> Dragons,
> > > the
> > > recent Kids' WB cartoons, The Hobbit, Return of the King
> >
> > I was never an Animaniacs fan.
> So you aren't. Big deal. That's your opinion.
I think I phrased it so it already appeared as if I was stating an
opinion, not a fact.
> > > The first two are constantly mixed up with with Japanese anime.
> > > The
> > > Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond animated style is its own style,
> not
> > > anime
> > > rip-off.(Influenced? yes. Rip-off? No.)
> >
> > To tell the truth, my favourite Bruce Timm/Paul Dini superhero
> episodes
> > were the first few Batman episodes. I didn't like the progressive
> > simplification of Batman's costume, and the art direction and
> camera
> > shots became less stylish.
> Except for Batman Beyond, the superhero stuff is done. I forgot to
> mention the Max Fliescher Superman in that list.
I don't know where they are going with Batman Beyond. At first I
thought that putting the mask on a different character would free up
some creative restraints, but it feels more like a mutant-of-the-day
show somewhat akin to the repetitive cosmic-baddie-of-the-day show we
found in Superman.
archelon34
tal...@optusnet.comb.au (Talen) wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:33:03 -0500, Robert Hutchinson
> <ser...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >KK wrote:
> >> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >> > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's
> postulate. ^^;;
> >>
> >> Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster
> could also bedeaf
> >> or were you thinking of two others?
> >
> >One would be extended stretches of English (or another language)
In article <38879adb...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
tal...@optusnet.comb.au (Talen) wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:33:03 -0500, Robert Hutchinson
> <ser...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >KK wrote:
> >> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >> > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's
> postulate. ^^;;
> >>
> >> Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster
> could also bedeaf
> >> or were you thinking of two others?
> >
> >One would be extended stretches of English (or another language)
> Note, Asuka from Evangelion, and Peorth from AMG (though I've not
> seen the
> anime of this manga, so I may be wrong) uses French..
I thought Asuka used German.
Jojo
<rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> LoganColt wrote:
> >
> > I like anime. Big hairy deal. You hit the nail right on the
> head.
> > Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
> Paradise",
> "The Legend of Lyon", "Odin", "Magical Twilight"... Heck, I'll
> take an
> animated Batman, or Men In Black over M.D. Geist any day.
Strangely enough, there are episodes of Pokemon that were better paced
and overall more entertaining for me when I watched it along with
Batman Beyond. How could this be? Batman Beyond has superior
animation!! So the lesson is: animation doesn't mean diddly squat if
you don't know where you're going with it. As for MIB..umm...nice
designs.
Just another opinion,
Jojo
Robert Hutchinson
>
> LoganColt wrote:
> >
> > I like anime. Big hairy deal. You hit the nail right on the head.
> > Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
>
> As opposed of course to Japanese entries like "Pokemon", "Megami Paradise",
> "The Legend of Lyon", "Odin", "Magical Twilight"...
And those are just the ones that made it here, usually meaning some
significant number of people liked them.
Robert Hutchinson
Not that the above list is bad ... just not representative of the
guaranteed 90% crap.
Lizard
wrote:
>I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
Oh, grow up.
All cultures intermingle, change, learn from each other. Cultural
isolationism is repellant, not to mention racist. If Japanese styles
are good, why shouldn't Americans imitate them? After all, the very
*concept* of animation is originally American. How would you react to
someone demanding an end to anime, saying "Keep animation American!"
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com
Jeff Novotny
> A Japanese artist doesn't make such a conscious choice as to draw in a "manga"
> style or in a "Japanese" style, it would come quite naturally.
> For the common Western artist, drawing in a style similar to Kirby, Hergé or
> Manara would be natural, as opposed to drawing in a style native to an
> enitrely different culture.
You assume too much here. Back in the late 19th-Century, many French and
other European artists were interested in Japanese woodcut art and
incorporated that style into their own art. Therefore, in a sense it
became part of our artistic tradition as well as that of Japan. And for
artists who were following the Impressionists ... if it were natural to
paint in a style similar to their local heroes, they would be (at least
partly) drawing in a style native to an entirely different culture.
There is more commonality than you would at first believe.
Back when manga and anime were first making inroads in the West, in the
days when it was only the domain of fansubbers and university clubs, a
manga "influence" in fan works sometimes came across as contrived. (And
it was fairly easy to spot those "fannish" efforts.) But those days are
gone. Anime is now part of our culture too, and if an artist wants to
consciously draw in that style, there's nothing wrong with that.
Best;
Jeff
Talen
wrote:
>KK wrote:
>> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
>> > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
>>
>> Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster could also bedeaf
>> or were you thinking of two others?
>
>One would be extended stretches of English (or another language)
Note, Asuka from Evangelion, and Peorth from AMG (though I've not seen the
anime of this manga, so I may be wrong) uses French...
Also, in the manga for Inuyasha, Kagome says *in English* "Nice Shot" at
one point - since English words, in Japan, are Cool. So that sort of shoots
that one down, KK.
>in an
>anime. The other would be an anime that featured no dialogue. (At least one
>exists, IIRC.)
It's like claiming silent films weren't really films...
And on the whole, it looks like this is gunna degenerate into sub vs dub -
not surprising considering the abrasive nature of KK's original point...
Talen
wrote:
>Talen wrote:
>>
>> On 19 Jan 2000 22:00:07 GMT, cmdr...@aol.com (CMDR2 Jimm) wrote:
>>
>> >The otaku death squade strikes again.
>>
>> What's a Squade?
>
>Can't we at least manage to call a squade a squade?
... I'd pun back, but it's a bit of a non-sequiter... I mean, I can't just
go about digging up a random pun or two simply to fill the earthy tastes of
this NG - after all, you guys probably would mine if I did... I'm off to a
rocky start, after all - you couldn't get jokes this bad if you were
stoned. It's getting kind of shard to pull these puns out of where they
are, so when one drifts by, I will granite if I can.
Besides, we'll really rake in other punsters with this one...
>Robert Hutchinson
>Is going to regret that one. Yep.
*throws bricks at Robert*
Question being, are we on digging/rocks or are we on yard implements...
Yes, Epsilon, that is a challenge-of-sorts. ;p
Mr. Groovy
<ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The other would be an anime that featured no dialogue. (At least one
> exists, IIRC.)
"Legend of the Forest" by Tezuka. Available from Right Stuf for like
$10. A good little flick.
--
www.animejump.com
Webzine, isn't it?
Iggy Drougge
>In article <388579AA...@aol.com>,
> Loga...@aol.com wrote:
>> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
>> "anime."
>[snip]
>> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>>
>> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
>> this madness.
>I resent that. ^^;
>Yeesh, what extremist behavior. Yeah, there's some crap out there, but
>you can't take away every artist's right to be inspired by anime. Some
>artists give their characters big eyes and call it "anime" just to cash
>in on a trend, but MOST of us have been genuinely inspired by Japanese
>comics and know what we're doing. You at least know who Robert DeJesus
>is, right? Or Adam Warren?
Oh yes, I know Adam Warren. May that poor dôjin artist burn in hell.
I have myself attempted to draw a comic. Its style was very much inspired by
manga. This is a very fundamental difference. It would still be a comic, or a
BD. It would perhaps be drawn in a style akin to that of the Japanese, and
with certain themes and twists common to comics of Japanese origin, but would
not make it any more a manga.
A Japanese artist doesn't make such a conscious choice as to draw in a "manga"
style or in a "Japanese" style, it would come quite naturally.
For the common Western artist, drawing in a style similar to Kirby, Hergé or
Manara would be natural, as opposed to drawing in a style native to an
enitrely different culture.
A Japanese manga is authentic, whereas the Western pseudomanga is forever
doomed to be a copycat. A Japanese artist can do whatever he likes, and his
comic will remain a manga, whereas the pseudomanga artist will have to keep
within certain boundaries so as not to fall out of the "manga" category.
>And as far as I know, Peter Chung himself never referred to his work as
>"Japanimation," just some authors and reporters who didn't know any
>better.
I can't see what's wrong with that word. It's animation from Japan, and that'd
be catchy as well as descriptive.
>And ADV has every right to get a Japanese Studio to produce an American-
>written video. A few episodes of Batman and Animaniacs were animated by
>TMS, you know. Care to write to Warner Bros. and complain?
This is hardly an American invention, either. The French did this 20 years
ago, with "Les mysterieuses cités d'or", "Ulysse 31" and "Jayce et les
conquerants de la lumière" (sp?=), drawn in a decidely anime-esque style.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
Animeg3282
>Well I hope you don't think I'm one of 'them', because I'm not.
That's good! Want some pocky?
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
Cause of the month: Pastel Yumi
http://members.aol.com/Animeg3282/index.html ,
http://members.aol.com/animeg3282/page5/index.htm<--Please visit both my main
home page, and Fancy Lala fanclub.
Ryan Mathews
<3885BF07...@cis.ysu.edu>...
>
> I think if you're watching a dub you're missing half the show).
Of course, if you watch a sub a siginificant of part of show is covered up,
isn't it?
I like both subs and dubs. More and more often these days, the Japanese
track is no longer so obviously superior. Honestly, I believe if you
haven't seen EL-HAZARD in the English version, you've missed one of the
best "shows" out there.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com ICQ#: 11539925
Fanfic archive: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~mathews/
Read my web review page, "Last Exit Before Toll"
on the Anime Web Turnpike http://www.anipike.com/lastexit/
Disruptor
>
> In article <38878D...@gte.net>, Disruptor <math...@gte.net> wrote:
> > LoganColt wrote:
> > > If what you're saying about Bebop and Evangelion are true, then
> > who
> > > knows how much better they could have been if they were created
> > > exclusively for Japanese audiences.
> > Grass is always greener...
> > Bad anime:
> > Crystal Triangle, Roots Search, Twilight of the Cockroaches, Dog
> > Soldier, Explorer Woman Ray, Tekkaman the Space Knight, Thunder
> > Prince,
> > Towards the Terra
>
> Well, this is mostly personal opinion, as there really is no such thing
> as a bad something. With Tekkaman, you are referring to the original,
> right? The update--Tekkaman Blade, was pretty good in my opinion.
like the update myself, but not the original.
> > As to the good cartoons in the U.S.:
> > the
> > recent Kids' WB cartoons, The Hobbit, Return of the King
>
> I was never an Animaniacs fan.
So you aren't. Big deal. That's your opinion.
Iggy Drougge
>Am I the only one who's sick of people acting like people who like dubs are
>stupid and not "real" anime fans? -_-;
Most probably. I'm certain that most other sinners have doused themselves with
water and repented. Either that, or they are illiterate (quite probable,
actually), and quite simply don't post to newsgroups.
Ryan Mathews
<38875517...@aol.com>...
>
> If what you're saying about Bebop and Evangelion are true, [that
> they were created taking the American market into consideration]
> then who knows how much better they could have been if they were
> created exclusively for Japanese audiences.
This sounds like an ignorant statement to me. What, art is always better
if it's made for only one nationality?
Iggy Drougge
>LoganColt wrote:
>> If what you're saying about Bebop and Evangelion are true, then who
>> knows how much better they could have been if they were created
>> exclusively for Japanese audiences.
>Grass is always greener...
>Bad anime:
>Crystal Triangle, Roots Search, Twilight of the Cockroaches, Dog
>Soldier, Explorer Woman Ray, Tekkaman the Space Knight, Thunder Prince,
>Towards the Terra
Toward the Terra? Mind you, I was going to buy that tomorrow. The chara
designs look so appealing!
>I'm quite sure others can add to the list of BAD animes.
>As to the good cartoons in the U.S.:
>Mighty Orbots, Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors, Dungeons & Dragons, the
>recent Kids' WB cartoons, The Hobbit, Return of the King
Haven't seen the Orbots, but I was totally unimpressed by Jayce and D&D. The
WB cartoons have been rather nice at times, if it weren't for that Spielberg
man's involvement. As for the Tolkien animation, weren't those British?
The only American cartoons which I can watch without being bored to death or
annoyed to the very same points are the new Hanna Barbera bunch, e.g. Dexter,
Cow and Chicken and Weasel.
>The first two are constantly mixed up with with Japanese anime. The
>Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond animated style is its own style, not anime
>rip-off.(Influenced? yes. Rip-off? No.)
Exactly. Influence is one thing, Antarctic Press another.
Matt Martin
Talen <tal...@optusnet.comb.au> imparted the following wisdom unto us:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:33:03 -0500, Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >KK wrote:
> >> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >> > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
> >>
> >> Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster could also bedeaf
> >> or were you thinking of two others?
> >
> >One would be extended stretches of English (or another language)
Sakura Wars does this at points, but the usage of the other languages
is a bit fractured.
> Note, Asuka from Evangelion, and Peorth from AMG (though I've not seen the
> anime of this manga, so I may be wrong) uses French...
Peorth just uses extremely feminine Japanese (such ending most
everything in "desu wa") in order to sound, well, either extremely
feminine or pseudo-sophisticated. The translators used French in the
translation since it has the connotation of being both "the language
of love" and sort of carries an air of sophistication when sprinkled
about in English.
Peorth is not in the animated version (yet), but word is she will be
in the movie out later this year. The story is still HI-MI-TSU, though.
> Also, in the manga for Inuyasha, Kagome says *in English* "Nice Shot" at
> one point - since English words, in Japan, are Cool. So that sort of shoots
> that one down, KK.
And most of the Slayers spells that aren't made up words, mazoku
names, or place names are English. There's at least one French use
("Dug Haut").
--
Matt Martin / buf...@sdf.lonestar.org
Visit the University of Richmond Japanese Anime Club home page:
http://www.student.richmond.edu/~anime
------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you said "HEAVILY FORESTED" it reminded me of an overdue CLEANING
BILL ... Don't you SEE? O'Grogan SWALLOWED a VALUABLE COIN COLLECTION
and HAD to murder the ONLY MAN who KNEW!!
David Johnston
>
> I like anime. Big hairy deal. You hit the nail right on the head.
> Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
As opposed of course to Japanese entries like "Pokemon", "Megami Paradise",
"The Legend of Lyon", "Odin", "Magical Twilight"... Heck, I'll take an
animated Batman, or Men In Black over M.D. Geist any day.
> animation. What if newbies start thinking Rat Bastard is better than
> Evangelion? Soon there will be a whole batch of American/Japanese
> hybrids, none of which retain the same quality and emotion as their
> purebred Japanese counterparts.
Oh the horror. You mean somebody might make another "Lost Cities of Gold" or
"Three Musketeers"? How frightening.
> American animation just can't entertain like Japanese animation. That's
> why we're here.
What do you mean "we", white-eyes?
Taba-kun
"Iggy Drougge" <opt...@canit.se> wrote:
> Oh yes, I know Adam Warren. May that poor dôjin artist burn in hell.
You people need to get over the fact that he put a cigarette in Priss's
mouth already.
> I have myself attempted to draw a comic. Its style was very much
inspired by
> manga. This is a very fundamental difference. It would still be a
comic, or a
> BD. It would perhaps be drawn in a style akin to that of the Japanese,
and
> with certain themes and twists common to comics of Japanese origin,
but would
> not make it any more a manga.
That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm just saying that anyone
from any part of the world can have their art style genuinely influenced
by Japanese comics. I never said that makes their work a "manga"... and
I do go by its standard definition. ^^;
> A Japanese artist doesn't make such a conscious choice as to draw in a
"manga"
> style or in a "Japanese" style, it would come quite naturally.
> For the common Western artist, drawing in a style similar to Kirby,
Hergé or
> Manara would be natural, as opposed to drawing in a style native to an
> enitrely different culture.
> A Japanese manga is authentic, whereas the Western pseudomanga is
forever
> doomed to be a copycat. A Japanese artist can do whatever he likes,
and his
> comic will remain a manga, whereas the pseudomanga artist will have to
keep
> within certain boundaries so as not to fall out of the "manga"
category.
I can see how someone without my experience can make such assumptions.
I used to conciously try to make my art look like Japanese comics. I
realized I was making it a big mistake, so I stopped, and started
drawing like myself. And it still looked like Japanese comics.
I'm not Japanese, I wasn't born and raised in Japan. But 99% of the
comics I read are Japanese and 99% of the art I look at and absorb is
Japanese. Why do some people have such a hard time believeing that that
may be all it takes?
Some non-Japanese artists do force their art to be something it's not,
when trying to "draw like anime." But this kind of practice is NOT A
REQUIREMENT, and not something they ALL do. Some of us truly let
inspiration take its toll, and it did for me.
Trust me on this. I think I have a better idea on how natural my own
art is than you do, m'kaaaay? ^_^;
> >And as far as I know, Peter Chung himself never referred to his work
as
> >"Japanimation," just some authors and reporters who didn't know any
> >better.
>
> I can't see what's wrong with that word. It's animation from Japan,
and that'd
> be catchy as well as descriptive.
Well, these days it tends to be a word reserved for newbies. =P Us
elitists wouldn't dare use it.
But the problem here is that it was being used to refer to Peter Chung's
animation... who obviously is not Japanese ^^;
Les(nick)
--
DELETE! | http://wendy-project.com/
"People don't choose their careers; they are engulfed by them."
JOHN DOS PASSOS
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Johnston
>
> In article <388863...@telusplanet.net>, David Johnston
> <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > I like anime. Big hairy deal. You hit the nail right on the
> > head.
> > > Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
> > As opposed of course to Japanese entries like "Pokemon", "Megami
> > Paradise",
> > "The Legend of Lyon", "Odin", "Magical Twilight"... Heck, I'll
> > take an
> > animated Batman, or Men In Black over M.D. Geist any day.
>
> and overall more entertaining for me when I watched it along with
> Batman Beyond. How could this be? Batman Beyond has superior
> animation!!
Since I never mentioned quality of animation, your interjection seems
irrelevant. Odin had glorious animation and sucked rocks.
Strangpork
Wrote:
>In article <388579AA...@aol.com>,
> Loga...@aol.com wrote:
>> I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
>> "anime."
>[snip]
>> I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>>
>> I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
>> this madness.
>
>I resent that. ^^;
>Yeesh, what extremist behavior. Yeah, there's some crap out there, but
>you can't take away every artist's right to be inspired by anime. Some
>artists give their characters big eyes and call it "anime" just to cash
>in on a trend, but MOST of us have been genuinely inspired by Japanese
>comics and know what we're doing. You at least know who Robert DeJesus
>is, right? Or Adam Warren?
>
>"Japanimation," just some authors and reporters who didn't know any
>better.
>
>written video. A few episodes of Batman and Animaniacs were animated by
>TMS, you know. Care to write to Warner Bros. and complain?
>
Actually, almost all of the episodes of Batman, Animaniacs, Pinky & The Brain,
Freakzoid, etc., etc. are at least partially animated in Japan. So were a huge
portion of G.I.Joe, Transformers, Jem, Thundercats and almost every other
televison animation show produced in the last twenty years. It's how most of
the Japanese studios kept their doors open. It's really only been in the last
ten years or so that a lot of the work has begun going directly to Korea and
China instead.
Strangpork
>Program Network) is producing a new cartoon based on an American comic
>called "Rat Bastard." They claim the series is done, "...in the style
>of Japanese anime." Do they think we're stupid? Do they seriously
>think they can stick big eyes on a character and we'll watch? I haven't
>read the comic, I haven't seen the show and I already hate it!
>
My goodness. What an enlightened attitude. You do realize what a twit that
makes you sound like? (Kinda like the people who refuse to watch anime because
it's all sex & violence or all like Speed Racer...) Strangely, however, I've
never met you either and I'm already positive that you're a mewling little
half-wit who still lives at home and whacks off into a sock while watching La
Blue Girl on a 13' TV.
>
>ADV (Awful Dub Version) has Japanese studios working on SIN and Lady
>Death. I'm pretty sure SIN isn't a Japanese game
The game was released in Japan and was quite successful there. Lensman and
Starship Troopers weren't written in Japan, but they became anime, as did
Thunderbirds and A Chinese Ghost Story. So what?
and I KNOW Lady Death
>is a horrible American comic fixated on the massive boobage of it's
>pasty-faced heroine (yes, I've read this comic). Is this anime?
>
Saw some of the preliminary production designs on IGN. Looked like anime to
me, and the director is the same guy who directed Makai Tensho (Ninja
Ressurection) and Princess Nine.
>Now Production IG is being paid to do an animated movie based on Nine
>Rings of the Wu-Tang (yes, a comic with characters from the hip-hop
>group). Wu-Tang has about 1 or 2 issues on the stands and I've read
>them. The art is great but the story is still craptastic. The movie
>script is being written by the same guy who did Disney's Tarzan. Are
>the Wu-Tang going to break into a song every 5 minutes? Maybe.
>
There was no singing in Tarzan, only Phil Collin's vocals on the soundtrack.
Your ignorance really is amazing.
>If any of what I've mentioned above qualifies under the official
>definition of "anime" I'll renounce my fandom right now and quit.
Bye. We don't need losers like you anyway. Especially around our socks.
>Manga, anime, J-pop, sushi, everything. I'm so mad about these rip-offs
??? Yo do realize you're not even making sense now. Has your mommy checked
your medication?
>I could easily maim Matt Greenfield (he killed John-John, you know) with
>my bare hands. If you want to talk opportunity costs, what is the cost
>of Nine Rings of the Wu-Tang? Ghost in the Shell 2: Man Machine
>Interface, that's what! For every craptastic American movie Production
>IG gets paid to do, they can't start production on Masamune Shirow's
>latest manga masterpiece or any other potentially great Japanese
>creation.
>
You'll be waiting a long time, sock-boy. You see, Shirow's not very popular in
Japan. That's why he does so many game designs like Landlock these days;
because as a manga artist he never quite hit the level where doing manga is
enough to make a good living. From the Japanese perspective, the Black Magic
anime was only a moderate success and Appleseed bombed. Ghost in the Shell
exists only because Manga Entertainment used to be the British publisher of
Appleseed and knew Shirow was popular over here. GITS lost money in Japan, by
the way, so I doubt you'll see IG or Kodansha produce a sequel without outrside
investment. Similarly, Shirow's Gundress was mostly financed by an
American-owned company, Enoki.
>I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>
>I'll put it on a shirt and wear it at Otakon this year. We have to stop
>this madness.
>
Oh yes indeedy. Let's stop the flow of money into Japan so that all of the
studios will be forced to shut down due to lack of funding, not just the ones
that already have due to increased competetion from Korea, Taiwan and China
(not to mention that new animation super-power, India.)
In case you haven't noticed, the Japanese animation industry is in the process
of dying a slow and nasty death due to the simple fact that Japanese consumers
are no longer buying anime. (Gee, you don't suppose that might have something
to do with the fact that their economies in kind of a rut, do you?) Ten years
ago the average issue of Animage or Anime V was filled with literally dozens of
new OVA releases every month and there were dozens of TV series as well. Know
where the money to keep that kind of animation machine came from? It was from
doing the production for dozens of American TV shows on the side, which gave
the anime studios the constant production flow that let them support the
infrastructure that made the whole thing possible. Now, however, that niche is
being taken up by animation studios in other countries, many of which were
actually originally set up by the Japanese to support their own industry. The
reason the Japanese companies are becoming actively involved with the American
market is because it's a matter of economic necessity. If there are American
companies that want to put money into the Japanese studios, more power to them.
Oh, and if people who aren't Japanese can't do anime, how do you explain Scott
Frazier? (Gee, didn't he do a huge chunk of Ghost in the Shell...?)
Taba-kun
Jeff Novotny <umno...@cc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:
> You assume too much here. Back in the late 19th-Century, many French
and
> other European artists were interested in Japanese woodcut art and
> incorporated that style into their own art. Therefore, in a sense it
> became part of our artistic tradition as well as that of Japan. And
for
> artists who were following the Impressionists ... if it were natural
to
> paint in a style similar to their local heroes, they would be (at
least
> partly) drawing in a style native to an entirely different culture.
> There is more commonality than you would at first believe.
>
> Back when manga and anime were first making inroads in the West, in
the
> days when it was only the domain of fansubbers and university clubs, a
> manga "influence" in fan works sometimes came across as contrived.
(And
> it was fairly easy to spot those "fannish" efforts.) But those days
are
> gone. Anime is now part of our culture too, and if an artist wants to
> consciously draw in that style, there's nothing wrong with that.
>
> Best;
> Jeff
Thank you, Jeff! m(__)m
David Crowe
: Disruptor skrev:
: >The first two are constantly mixed up with with Japanese anime. The
: >Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond animated style is its own style, not anime
: >rip-off.(Influenced? yes. Rip-off? No.)
: Exactly. Influence is one thing, Antarctic Press another.
??? I can't see how you can imply Antarctic Press a "rip off" studio when
a number of Image and ex-Image artists _blatantly_ trace designs straight
off of manga and anime. Compare Red Monika of Battle Chasers to
Bloodberry from Saber Marionettes, for example. Or to to the Swipe of the
Week Page at www.genesiscomics.com to see even more.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"I guess justice comes before pastries."
-Umi Ryuzaki
David Crowe
: On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:45:30 -0500, LoganColt <Loga...@aol.com>
: wrote:
: >I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
: Oh, grow up.
: All cultures intermingle, change, learn from each other. Cultural
: isolationism is repellant, not to mention racist. If Japanese styles
: are good, why shouldn't Americans imitate them? After all, the very
: *concept* of animation is originally American. How would you react to
: someone demanding an end to anime, saying "Keep animation American!"
The ultimate irony to this statement is that Tezuka was heavily influenced
by Disney as he created both manga and anime. And how many Blade Runner
homages have there been in various anime? There's no such thing as a
"pure" cultural creation these days.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Financing isn't the same as writing. Masamune Shirow didn't write Ghost
> in the Shell with American fans in mind. That's why Ghost in the Shell
> is so great. Manga didn't write it for Production IG to animate.
> Japanese creators. Japanese animators. That's what's important.
>
> Pokemon was created as a video game. It was ABSOLUTELY NOT created with
> American game fans in mind. Nintendo had SEVERE reservations about
> importing (or deporting) the game and the show. They didn't think
> American fans would get the Japanese style of animation! Now they think
> they can stick big eyes on everything.
>
Actually, in fact, you're dead wrong.
The creator of Nintendo and the Nintendo execs themselves
have admitted to putting international considerations
even at the early Pokemon pre-production stages.
Nintendo is a global company, as is Sony.
No way Nintendo could compete with Sony if they don't think big,
because Sony definitely operates big and global
(along the very principle of Sony's late founder).
Furthermore, Nintendo is actually faring better in the US than Japan,
so the US market comprise a larger piece of its pie,
so no way they'd not consider the US
with a very possible cross-border hit as Pokemon.
Laters. =)
Stan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester Lost...@optonline.net
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/\___ __| |__|___| \ ___|
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
>
> It's these American creators swiping the Japanese style (either by
> hiring a Japanese studio or doing it themselves) that tick me off. You
> may not see it, but they could effectively alter the course of
> animation. What if newbies start thinking Rat Bastard is better than
> Evangelion? Soon there will be a whole batch of American/Japanese
> hybrids, none of which retain the same quality and emotion as their
> purebred Japanese counterparts.
>
People "swipe" styles all the time.
Styles know no borders.
The world's most popular and influential styles
(like in art) are never confined to nationalities.
In fact, the proponents of those styles
actually prefer to share their works with the world.
Besides, Tezuka "swiped" off of Disney.
So, does Tezuka tick you off too? Yes or no?
Animeg3282
>Saw some of the preliminary production designs on IGN. Looked like anime to
>me, and the director is the same guy who directed Makai Tensho (Ninja
>Ressurection) and Princess Nine
Hmm..did it look still kind of like the comic? (you know, massive boobage, et
al)
Avatar
"S.t.A.n.L.e.E" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, LoganColt wrote:
> > Pokemon was created as a video game. It was ABSOLUTELY NOT created with
> > American game fans in mind. Nintendo had SEVERE reservations about
> > importing (or deporting) the game and the show. They didn't think
> > American fans would get the Japanese style of animation! Now they think
> > they can stick big eyes on everything.
> >
>
> Actually, in fact, you're dead wrong.
> The creator of Nintendo and the Nintendo execs themselves
> have admitted to putting international considerations
> even at the early Pokemon pre-production stages.
>
> Nintendo is a global company, as is Sony.
> No way Nintendo could compete with Sony if they don't think big,
> because Sony definitely operates big and global
> (along the very principle of Sony's late founder).
>
> Furthermore, Nintendo is actually faring better in the US than Japan,
> so the US market comprise a larger piece of its pie,
> so no way they'd not consider the US
> with a very possible cross-border hit as Pokemon.
Especially given the revenue coming from Pokemon. Something like 40
percent of ALL Nintendo's money last year came from sales of Pokemon
games! With sales of the N64 crippled by the Dreamcast release and a
complete lack of worthy titles, Pokemon is keeping Nintendo in the black
almost single-handedly.
Avatar
Jojo
> Since I never mentioned quality of animation, your interjection
> seems
> irrelevant. Odin had glorious animation and sucked rocks.
Friendly guy, aren't you?
Jojo
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Arnold Kim
----------
>I like anime. Big hairy deal. You hit the nail right on the head.
>Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
>American fluff with the Japanese style. That's because they think we're
>gullible. They're in their offices saying, "This Japanimation stuff is
>pretty hot. If we can make our stuff look like that, we'll sell a whole
>lot more to these opaku-kuns or whatever." Most of the people on this
>message board are looking at this from a cold, emotionless, business
>perspective. That's fine if you're a business.
No, I look at it from the perspective of "how is this going to hurt me and
the anime that I watch?" Not one bit. So it doesn't bother me at all.
What's the big deal?
Or is this argument the cousin of the "I like anime because it makes me feel
like I'm in some super secret special underground club" argument?
>I'm a hobbyist. I like what the Japanese creators, writers, animators
>and the like can do by themselves. America hasn't shown much in the way
So do I.
>of animated entertainment for 19 year-olds. It's all fine and good if
>American companies like Manga want to invest in making the next Ghost in
>the Shell. That's great. If Japan needs more money to make their
>special magic, help em' out.
>
>It's these American creators swiping the Japanese style (either by
>hiring a Japanese studio or doing it themselves) that tick me off. You
Why?
>may not see it, but they could effectively alter the course of
>animation. What if newbies start thinking Rat Bastard is better than
Big Schmeal. It's their opinion.
>Evangelion? Soon there will be a whole batch of American/Japanese
>hybrids, none of which retain the same quality and emotion as their
>purebred Japanese counterparts.
First of all, you've made yourself look like an ignoramus with that blanket
statement. Yes, I'll agree that _generally_ anime is more appealing to me
than american animation, but that doesn't mean it's objectively better ("90%
of everything is crap, but just because it's crap doesn't mean I can't like
it") or that every anime is automatically better than every US cartoon-
Unless you're really going to assert that Samurai Shodown and Battle Arena
Toshinden OAVs are automatically better than The Iron Giant or Toy Story 2.
Second of all, once again, how is this going to screw over anime in the US?
If it's because you think it'll become more popular than anime in the US,
that's not an argument- there's a ton of stuff, a ton of crappy stuff that's
more popular than anime in the US, and the anime import industry right now
is doing better than ever. While I admit these US efforts _seem_
superficial, it probably might help anime in the US in the long run- or at
least not be much of a detriment.
>I like characters with names like Shinji, Kenshin, Shinobu, Lain, or
>whatever. I like the Japanese temples and cities. I like it when a 15
>year-old girl sounds like a 15 year-old girl. I like it when Japanese
>characters eat their food with chopsticks. I like it when a show makes
>me question my own existence. I don't see Rat Bastard, SIN, Lady Death,
>or Checkers fast food doing that anytime in the near future.
I like the little Japanese "bits" too. And you don't have to like Rat
Bastard and such, though I must admit keeping that attitude before even
watching the series is foolish- it means you'll never give it a chance
because its not anime. But once again, how the hell is this going to affect
the progress of anime in the US? Anime has survived far worse associations
and stereotypes ("X-rated porn", "kiddie crap", etc.) and it still has
gotten to the point it has.
>American animation just can't entertain like Japanese animation. That's
>why we're here.
I agree, in general. But who says it's impossible?
Arnold Kim
Jojo
<ki...@erols.com> wrote:
> ----------
> In article <3887530B...@aol.com>, LoganColt
> <Loga...@aol.com> wrote:
> >I like anime. Big hairy deal. You hit the nail right on the
> head.
> >Most American animation is fluff. Now, companies want to mix the
> >American fluff with the Japanese style. That's because they
> think we're
> >gullible. They're in their offices saying, "This Japanimation
> stuff is
> >pretty hot. If we can make our stuff look like that, we'll sell
> a whole
> >lot more to these opaku-kuns or whatever." Most of the people on
> this
> >message board are looking at this from a cold, emotionless,
> business
> >perspective. That's fine if you're a business.
> No, I look at it from the perspective of "how is this going to
> hurt me and
> the anime that I watch?" Not one bit.
I think anime fans can get a little obsessive at times. Not that this
is relevant to the conversation.
Yes, I'll agree that _generally_ anime is more
> appealing to me
> than american animation, but that doesn't mean it's objectively
> better ("90%
> of everything is crap, but just because it's crap doesn't mean I
> can't like
> it")
If Sturgeon's Law is to be followed, then I guess we'd have to conclude
that 90% of the human race is crap. A bit pessimistic, I'd say. I guess
that means almost everybody here in this NG are pieces of crap. Not me,
of course. I believe I fall under the 10% that are gems.
KK
Animeg3282 wrote:
> KK said:
>
> >Well I hope you don't think I'm one of 'them', because I'm not.
>
> That's good! Want some pocky?
Hmm I don't know I've never tried it, what's it taste like?
KK
Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> KK wrote:
> > Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> > > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
> >
> > Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster could also bedeaf
> > or were you thinking of two others?
>
> One would be extended stretches of English (or another language) in an
> anime.
Yeah, but how extended are you talking it can't be that long before you hear Japanese
again.
> The other would be an anime that featured no dialogue. (At least one
> exists, IIRC.)
Really? Any one ever read that issue of GI Joe with no dialogue? #21 or so, it was
probablyone of the coolest comics I ever read...err looked at.
>
>
> Robert Hutchinson
KK
Talen wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:33:03 -0500, Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >KK wrote:
> >> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >> > Can think of two different situations that mess up KK's postulate. ^^;;
> >>
> >> Hmm two huh? Well any non-Japanese dub, and the original poster could also bedeaf
> >> or were you thinking of two others?
> >
> >One would be extended stretches of English (or another language)
>
> Note, Asuka from Evangelion, and Peorth from AMG (though I've not seen the
> anime of this manga, so I may be wrong) uses French...
>
> Also, in the manga for Inuyasha, Kagome says *in English* "Nice Shot" at
> one point - since English words, in Japan, are Cool. So that sort of shoots
> that one down, KK.
Everybody uses some other language every once in a while, but it never dominatesthe
entire show.
>
>
> >in an
> >anime. The other would be an anime that featured no dialogue. (At least one
> >exists, IIRC.)
>
> It's like claiming silent films weren't really films...
Wouldn't they be considered subtitled?
>
>
> And on the whole, it looks like this is gunna degenerate into sub vs dub -
> not surprising considering the abrasive nature of KK's original point...
Abrasive? I wasn't trying to be, I don't care if you like dubs better but it's justmy
opinion your missing out on some great acting what's wrong with that?
Aren't I entitled to my opinion?
>
>
> Talen
>
> Remove the b from .comb to e-mail
> "Obtenez la Vache. Méfiez-vous du Fromage"
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~kuroma/
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~ksna/
Scott Fujimoto
: I like both subs and dubs. More and more often these days, the Japanese
: track is no longer so obviously superior. Honestly, I believe if you
: haven't seen EL-HAZARD in the English version, you've missed one of the
: best "shows" out there.
...in some ways. In other ways, the sub version is better, especially in
regards to Ifurita's more subtle characterization. But that's just a reason
to get DVD, so you have the best of both worlds.
And HONESTLY people, with the advent of DVD, why is this even STILL an issue?
Better format, cheaper, and in regards to sub/dub, we get to have our cake
and eat it too. Can't we move on, folks? ^_^
--Scott (waiting eagerly for the EH DVDs)
Chika
> > Also, in the manga for Inuyasha, Kagome says *in English* "Nice Shot"
> > at one point - since English words, in Japan, are Cool. So that sort
> > of shoots that one down, KK.
> Everybody uses some other language every once in a while, but it never
> dominatesthe entire show.
Not even Pixy Misa?
(btw, Pocky is a type of biscuit dunked in chocolate. It's yummy!) ^_^
--
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//\\ The Lurkers' Retreat - www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
/ \ CrashnetUK - www.madoka.clara.net (come.to/arena.essex)
... What are you doing?!? The message is over, GO AWAY!
Iggy Drougge
>On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:45:30 -0500, LoganColt <Loga...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>>I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>Oh, grow up.
>All cultures intermingle, change, learn from each other. Cultural
>isolationism is repellant, not to mention racist. If Japanese styles
>are good, why shouldn't Americans imitate them? After all, the very
>*concept* of animation is originally American. How would you react to
>someone demanding an end to anime, saying "Keep animation American!"
Cultural isolation can in fact be very fruitful. Without such isolationism, I
doubt that we'd have many good animes, and if the government had let Superman
in after WWII, I doubt that there would be any French comic art worth of note.
As for Japan's 100 years of emulation of the Western world, that has been a
lot out of necessity, since there were no indigenous technology for building
radios, cars, ships or animation. In the Western world, where these
technologies have originated, we have an indigenous animation culture. There
is no need to emulate that of a foreign country, particularly not
superficially, when there in fact is an already established tradition here.
Iggy Drougge
>Iggy Drougge wrote:
>> A Japanese artist doesn't make such a conscious choice as to draw in a
>> "manga" style or in a "Japanese" style, it would come quite naturally. For
>> the common Western artist, drawing in a style similar to Kirby, Hergé or
>> Manara would be natural, as opposed to drawing in a style native to an
>> enitrely different culture.
>You assume too much here. Back in the late 19th-Century, many French and
>other European artists were interested in Japanese woodcut art and
>incorporated that style into their own art. Therefore, in a sense it
>became part of our artistic tradition as well as that of Japan. And for
>artists who were following the Impressionists ... if it were natural to
>paint in a style similar to their local heroes, they would be (at least
>partly) drawing in a style native to an entirely different culture.
>There is more commonality than you would at first believe.
I am quite aware of the Japanese influence on the impressionists. Still, I
can't be arsed to mention what went on a hundred years ago.
>Back when manga and anime were first making inroads in the West, in the
>days when it was only the domain of fansubbers and university clubs, a
>manga "influence" in fan works sometimes came across as contrived. (And
>it was fairly easy to spot those "fannish" efforts.) But those days are
>gone. Anime is now part of our culture too, and if an artist wants to
>consciously draw in that style, there's nothing wrong with that.
Au contraire. /Perhaps/ in 20 years' time will it come across as natural, when
a generation has grown up with manga and anime as an everyday influence.
Today, it is not, not even in the most manga-saturated countries in the
Western world.
As for efforts from Korea, Hong Kong or Taiwan, I wouldn't know, but with
domestic editions of Shônen Jump, chances are somewhat higher.
Iggy Drougge
>Iggy Drougge <opt...@canit.se> wrote:
>: Disruptor skrev:
>: >The first two are constantly mixed up with with Japanese anime. The
>: >Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond animated style is its own style, not anime
>: >rip-off.(Influenced? yes. Rip-off? No.)
>: Exactly. Influence is one thing, Antarctic Press another.
>??? I can't see how you can imply Antarctic Press a "rip off" studio when
>a number of Image and ex-Image artists _blatantly_ trace designs straight
>off of manga and anime. Compare Red Monika of Battle Chasers to
>Bloodberry from Saber Marionettes, for example. Or to to the Swipe of the
>Week Page at www.genesiscomics.com to see even more.
I wouldn't know, since while I have bought a fair amount of Antarctic
magazines in the past, and even liked them, I wouldn't even look towards an
image comic, much less try to discern any "art" beyond the technicolour
designs which invade your field of vision from a hundred metres away.
Iggy Drougge
>In article <2497.55T475T1...@canit.se>,
> "Iggy Drougge" <opt...@canit.se> wrote:
>> Oh yes, I know Adam Warren. May that poor dôjin artist burn in hell.
>You people need to get over the fact that he put a cigarette in Priss's
>mouth already.
I didn't know that, neither do I know why I should care.
>> I have myself attempted to draw a comic. Its style was very much
>inspired by
>> manga. This is a very fundamental difference. It would still be a
>comic, or a
>> BD. It would perhaps be drawn in a style akin to that of the Japanese,
>and
>> with certain themes and twists common to comics of Japanese origin,
>but would
>> not make it any more a manga.
>That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm just saying that anyone
>from any part of the world can have their art style genuinely influenced
>by Japanese comics. I never said that makes their work a "manga"... and
>I do go by its standard definition. ^^;
You and I have separate definitions of a "genuine influence".
>> A Japanese artist doesn't make such a conscious choice as to draw in a
>"manga"
>> style or in a "Japanese" style, it would come quite naturally.
>> For the common Western artist, drawing in a style similar to Kirby,
>Hergé or
>> Manara would be natural, as opposed to drawing in a style native to an
>> enitrely different culture.
>> A Japanese manga is authentic, whereas the Western pseudomanga is
>forever
>> doomed to be a copycat. A Japanese artist can do whatever he likes,
>and his
>> comic will remain a manga, whereas the pseudomanga artist will have to
>keep
>> within certain boundaries so as not to fall out of the "manga"
>category.
>I can see how someone without my experience can make such assumptions.
>I used to conciously try to make my art look like Japanese comics. I
>realized I was making it a big mistake, so I stopped, and started
>drawing like myself. And it still looked like Japanese comics.
>I'm not Japanese, I wasn't born and raised in Japan. But 99% of the
>comics I read are Japanese and 99% of the art I look at and absorb is
>Japanese. Why do some people have such a hard time believeing that that
>may be all it takes?
I don't know, but that sounds much like the environment a Japanese grows up
in, but not one which the common Westerner grows up with.
>Some non-Japanese artists do force their art to be something it's not,
>when trying to "draw like anime." But this kind of practice is NOT A
>REQUIREMENT, and not something they ALL do. Some of us truly let
>inspiration take its toll, and it did for me.
>Trust me on this. I think I have a better idea on how natural my own
>art is than you do, m'kaaaay? ^_^;
I wouldn't know, not being you, and not having seen your drawings, but I doubt
it.
>> >And as far as I know, Peter Chung himself never referred to his work
>as
>> >"Japanimation," just some authors and reporters who didn't know any
>> >better.
>>
>> I can't see what's wrong with that word. It's animation from Japan,
>and that'd
>> be catchy as well as descriptive.
>Well, these days it tends to be a word reserved for newbies. =P Us
>elitists wouldn't dare use it.
I'm an elitist, yet I don't see the problem.
>But the problem here is that it was being used to refer to Peter Chung's
>animation... who obviously is not Japanese ^^;
Peter who?
--
Danielle
>can't be arsed to mention what went on a hundred years ago.
>
What's your arse got to do with it? ^_^
Danielle
Danielle
>If Sturgeon's Law is to be followed, then I guess we'd have to conclude
>that 90% of the human race is crap. A bit pessimistic, I'd say. I guess
>that means almost everybody here in this NG are pieces of crap. Not me,
>of course. I believe I fall under the 10% that are gems.
Well, now we need a definition of "crap" and "gem" and then need to decide
if "crap" can eventually progress to become "gem" and if 'crap' can be as
good as 'gem' what does that do to the quality of 'gem'? ^_^
Danielle
Antaeus Feldspar
[snip]
> > And on the whole, it looks like this is gunna degenerate into sub vs dub -
> > not surprising considering the abrasive nature of KK's original point...
>
> Abrasive? I wasn't trying to be, I don't care if you like dubs better but
> it's just my opinion your missing out on some great acting what's wrong
> with that? Aren't I entitled to my opinion?
Red herring. You're entitled to your opinion; we're entitled to
protest if we find your opinion, and the way you stated it, insulting.
In this case, I have little doubt that the way you stated your
opinion was what caused the problem. You see, you *didn't* say, "If you
watch the dub instead of the sub, you're missing out on some fine
acting" (which I agree with, at least in those cases where the original
voice acting was 'fine' to begin with.)
What you *said* was "if the characters aren't SPEAKING Japanese
it's not anime." Which, of course, leads to the equations "sub = anime;
dub <> anime" and in turn to "sub fans = real anime fans; dub-watchers
<> real anime fans." And it's no wonder people found that insulting.
-jc
--
* -jc IS *NOW* feld...@cryogen.com
* Home page: http://members.tripod.com/~afeldspar/index.html
* The home of >>Failed Pilots Playhouse<<
* "Better you hold me close than understand..." Thomas Dolby
Robert Hutchinson
>
> KK wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > > And on the whole, it looks like this is gunna degenerate into sub vs dub -
> > > not surprising considering the abrasive nature of KK's original point...
> >
> > Abrasive? I wasn't trying to be, I don't care if you like dubs better but
> > it's just my opinion your missing out on some great acting what's wrong
> > with that? Aren't I entitled to my opinion?
>
> Red herring. You're entitled to your opinion; we're entitled to
> protest if we find your opinion, and the way you stated it, insulting.
> In this case, I have little doubt that the way you stated your
> opinion was what caused the problem. You see, you *didn't* say, "If you
> watch the dub instead of the sub, you're missing out on some fine
> acting" (which I agree with, at least in those cases where the original
> voice acting was 'fine' to begin with.)
> What you *said* was "if the characters aren't SPEAKING Japanese
> it's not anime." Which, of course, leads to the equations "sub = anime;
> dub <> anime" and in turn to "sub fans = real anime fans; dub-watchers
> <> real anime fans." And it's no wonder people found that insulting.
Hmm ...
KK wrote:
> LoganColt wrote:
>
> > I think there is a real need to nail down a strict definition for
> > "anime."
>
> Easy, you need to listen instead of look, if the characters aren't SPEAKING
> Japanese it's not anime. (and no I don't want to argue about dubs, because
> personally I think if you're watching a dub you're missing half the show).
From reading this, I see two things: one, KK was mainly addressing just the
question of a strict definition for "anime" in English; two, he seems to be
excepting dubs from the Japanese language requirement, or at least
acknowledging that he wasn't trying to exclude dubs with the definition.
Robert Hutchinson
Danielle
>> That's good! Want some pocky?
that they are sort of long and skinny. You can find them in most Japanese
stores. (Uwajimaya has em if you're in Seattle)
Danielle
Lizard
>Lizard skrev:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:45:30 -0500, LoganColt <Loga...@aol.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>I can sum up my anger in three words: Keep Anime Japanese
>
>>Oh, grow up.
>
>>All cultures intermingle, change, learn from each other. Cultural
>>isolationism is repellant, not to mention racist. If Japanese styles
>>are good, why shouldn't Americans imitate them? After all, the very
>>*concept* of animation is originally American. How would you react to
>>someone demanding an end to anime, saying "Keep animation American!"
>
>Cultural isolation can in fact be very fruitful. Without such isolationism, I
>doubt that we'd have many good animes, and if the government had let Superman
>in after WWII, I doubt that there would be any French comic art worth of note.
>
Or perhaps there would be far more, as Superman inspires an entire
generation?
>As for Japan's 100 years of emulation of the Western world, that has been a
>lot out of necessity, since there were no indigenous technology for building
>radios, cars, ships or animation. In the Western world, where these
>technologies have originated, we have an indigenous animation culture. There
>is no need to emulate that of a foreign country, particularly not
>superficially, when there in fact is an already established tradition here.
Irrelevant. Every artist is influenced by his favorite arts;every
creator becomes a creator when something touches him, and he says, "I
can do that!"
We have many artists,born in America, who found their inspiration in
anime -- and their creations, perchance, will find their way to Japan,
and influence in turn there. It is wrong -- evil, even -- to
artificially cripple or constrain the scope of an individuals quest
for inspiration. There is no such thing as a 'culture' apart from the
individuals who compose it;if Americans being creating 'anime', then,
anime is now part of American culture. American culture is any culture
created by Americans, regardless of where their inspirations
originated.
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com
Animeg3282
>Hmm I don't know I've never tried it, what's it taste like?
I have no idea, but I believe it's sweet?