No homosexuality in SAKURA
Christian Labrie
homosexuality in
CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
The reason why Shaoran blushes every time he's close to Yukito will be
revealed in season 2 (if she's ever released...)
Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship beyond
friendship!
Please stop those rumors...
Christian
Christian Labrie
> homosexuality in
Andy00
>> Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship beyond
>> friendship!
Ah. So that's why it _says_ Yukito is in love with Sakura's brother in both
the manga and anime. Because they're friends. :snickers:
Do you have any idea of some of the other manga that CLAMP (the authors of CCS)
have written? They like gay people. A lot!
And then there's Tomoyo.
http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
manga.html
Try to deny that snippet from the manga. Please, try to explain it some other
way.
"I have been a word in a book."
The Song of Taliesin
"If you will practice being fictional for a while, you will understand that
fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and
heartbeats."
Richard Bach -- "Illusions"
Kyle Thomas Pope
>Ah. So that's why it _says_ Yukito is in love with Sakura's brother in both
>the manga and anime. Because they're friends. :snickers:
Don't forget Sonomi and Nadeshiko.
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered." - No. 6
Andy00
>
>>Ah. So that's why it _says_ Yukito is in love with Sakura's brother in
>both
>>the manga and anime. Because they're friends. :snickers:
>
>Don't forget Sonomi and Nadeshiko.
Sonomi yes, Nadeshiko, no.
Miki no Miko
Christian Labrie <f.b...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:Zsr46.4766$vi3.1...@weber.videotron.net...
> I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there is
> homosexuality in
> CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
>
> The reason why Shaoran blushes every time he's close to Yukito will be
> revealed in season 2 (if she's ever released...)
Ah, that's one reason, yes. Who says it's the ONLY one? Remember, CCS is
Clamp. They like their gay characters an awful lot, it seems. ^^
> Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship beyond
> friendship!
Er.. In the manga, it's blatently explained at one point that Yukito is in
love with Sakura's brother... ^_^;;
Not to mention Tomoyo has this psycho-stalker type crush on Sakura. o.o
She's scary.
--
Jen
Lee Rekker
>http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
>manga.html
>
>Try to deny that snippet from the manga.
Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original? Is
that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
Alexander Harris
_______________
Jap. translator needed for Love Hina manga; please volunteer:
http://www.archive1.f2s.com/1/main.html
(Warning: that site has some hentai content. Dance lightly.)
"Time to die."
--Rand al'Thor, "Winter's Heart"
Andy00
>>And then there's Tomoyo.
>>http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
>>manga.html
>>
>>Try to deny that snippet from the manga.
>
>Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
>
>Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
>
>Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original?
>Is
>that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
It's the real deal. (Mixx) Plus, I _have_ confirmed from different sources
that the translation is good. That was said in the original Japanese as well.
Kyle Thomas Pope
<f.b...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>Please stop those rumors...
Is the idea that CCS incorporates gay characters into its storyline
really that difficult to deal with? CLAMP incorporates gay
relationships in all of their manga.
Galen Musbach
Lee Rekker wrote:
>
> >And then there's Tomoyo.
> >http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
> >manga.html
> >
> >Try to deny that snippet from the manga.
>
> Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
>
> Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
>
> Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original? Is
> that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
>
That's the Mixx version;
I don't have volume 2 of the bilingual edition yet.
-Galen
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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KireiSarah
>
>Is the idea that CCS incorporates gay characters into its storyline
>really that difficult to deal with? CLAMP incorporates gay
>relationships in all of their manga.
>
>Kyle
I would... really like to know what this guy is doing reading CLAMP x.x I mean,
okay, Li having a thing for Yukito is debatable, and I'm on the fence on Tomoyo
really being in love with Sakura (or, you know, it just being a little kid
crush) but Yukito and Touya are *definitely* in love. There's really... no way
to argue it. u.u You could try, but it'd be like arguing that Subaru isn't in
love with Seishirou. It just doesn't make any sense. u.u
Kirei the Yaoi Lover
Fish Eye no Miko
Christian Labrie wrote in message ...
>I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there is
>homosexuality in CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
THAT'S an interesting typo...
>The reason why Shaoran blushes every time he's close to Yukito will be
>revealed in season 2 (if she's ever released...)
>Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship beyond
>friendship!
>Please stop those rumors...
Yeah. And Haruka and Michiru are "just friends".
Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME. If you
can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
Catherine Johnson.
--
Remove "ima" to reply
vanfanel
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
> Yeah. And Haruka and Michiru are "just friends".
> Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME.
> If you can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
Ahhh, I can't handle it either (or choose not to, actually, due to
religious issues), but fortunately the world of anime is vast and
infinite, and there's plenty of other stuff (even shoujo) that
doesn't "go there".
But never mind that!!!
WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^_^
--Daniel
can't believe you just dropped unobtrusively into a thread like that ^_^
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Jon
>Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME. If you
>can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
<Whine> Nuh-uh! They're COUSINS! </Whine>
^_^;;;;
--
Jon
Remove SailorV to reply (Ooh!)
Otaku of M & M
Moonie Code furnished upon request
MinakoCode(1.0.0):SV:6[!] X:** O:d++oa--h+
"Je veux eteindre ta vie!" [I want to extinguish your life!]
- an angry French teacher
Jose (JRDelirio) Diaz
Fish Eye no Miko wrote in message ...
>
>Christian Labrie wrote in message ...
>
>>I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there is
>>homosexuality in CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
>
>THAT'S an interesting typo...
Sounds like a twisted Term-Paper subject ^_^
"Cardcaptor Sexuality, or, When is a Magic Wand Just a Magic Wand? An
Analysis of Polymorphous Perversions in Magical-Girl Anime"
>>Please stop those rumors...
>
>
>Yeah. And Haruka and Michiru are "just friends".
Me, I dig the dub's rendering of them as "cousins." Just makes it all the
more bent H_H.
>Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME. If you
>can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
>
>Catherine Johnson.
The thing is, depending on context it's may be done quite low-key and be
manageable thru dubbing/editing trickery (however much the purists may
scream and holler at the desecration); what the hell, if H & M are
"cousins", you could insert dialogue in CCS saying "it's just a phase these
kids are going thru". Yeah, right.
OTOH, I do recognize that, unfortunately, there is a vast segment of the
parental population who, if shown CCS "cold", could possibly find it in
their hearts to tolerate their children watching; but just mention up front
"it contains homosexuality" and that sound you just heard is their
collective gasp as they conjure in their mind's eye the filthiest filth from
their own repressed imaginations, and decide it's evil, no need to actually
look at it... oy, veh... So the problem is the flat-out unexplained
statement that there is "homosexual content," as a possible trigger for
(ignorant but no less real) demands that it be taken off the
air/bookshelves.
Stephen Moore
wrote:
>>And then there's Tomoyo.
>>http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
>>manga.html
>>
>>Try to deny that snippet from the manga.
>
>Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
>
>Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
>
>Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original? Is
>that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
Mixx
The bilingual has it "I like you a lot Sakura" "I like you too." "...
For sure Sakura is thinking of a different kind of like" as the
translation.
Stephen
Gatts
>>Yeah. And Haruka and Michiru are "just friends".
>>Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME. If you
>>can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
>
><Whine> Nuh-uh! They're COUSINS! </Whine>
>
>^_^;;;;
Well, so are Sakura and Tomoyo technically.
Then there's the fact that Li and Sakura are related as well.
Leaping Larry Jojo
Still doesn't explain Tomoyo and Sakura, though. (I know, I know, it's
not really, but it still IS, y'know?)
Plus, my friends love picking on Tomoyo. She's such a cute little
psycho.
Jojo
David Crowe
: On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:09:35 -0500, "Christian Labrie"
: <f.b...@videotron.ca> wrote:
: >Please stop those rumors...
: Is the idea that CCS incorporates gay characters into its storyline
: really that difficult to deal with? CLAMP incorporates gay
: relationships in all of their manga.
What about the first Rayearth series?
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
<Moan> "This episode of 'Buffy' is filled with continuity errors!
But I can't reach my internet newsgroup to *complain*!
Worst punishment ever!"
-Comic store guy in Hell, Simpsons Treehouse of Horror #6.
Animeg3282
>
>Do you have any idea of some of the other manga that CLAMP (the authors of
>CCS)
>have written? They like gay people. A lot!
Any theories on why they like it?
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
"Kero Kero!" Mimori, KeroKero Chime
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282 <---Fancy Lala Club! All better now!
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282/graduation.html <Graduation website.
Andy00
>: >Please stop those rumors...
>
>: Is the idea that CCS incorporates gay characters into its storyline
>: really that difficult to deal with? CLAMP incorporates gay
>: relationships in all of their manga.
>
>What about the first Rayearth series?
Notice you didn't mention the second. <g>
Lee Rekker
Alexander Harris
Who did a double take when he saw the name of the poster....
Leaping Larry Jojo
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> Andy said:
>
> >
> >Do you have any idea of some of the other manga that CLAMP (the
authors of
> >CCS)
> >have written? They like gay people. A lot!
>
> Any theories on why they like it?
Any theories on why they call themselves 'CLAMP?'
Sarah Davis
Christian Labrie wrote in message ...
>homosexuality in
>CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
That might be a fair alternate title for the series, actually.
>The reason why Shaoran blushes every time he's close to Yukito will be
>revealed in season 2 (if she's ever released...)
This information alone will not stop people from speculationg about possible
homosexual subtexts.
>Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship beyond
>friendship!
Huh... Care to expand on this thought? You didn't exactly offer any support
for it.
>Please stop those rumors...
The way you phrased that, one might think people were accusing the
characters of rape and murder rather than ambiguous sexuality.
Sarah
Sarah Davis
Leaping Larry Jojo wrote in message <92u1e6$1l2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <20010102204342...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
> anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
>> Andy said:
>>
>> >
>> >Do you have any idea of some of the other manga that CLAMP (the
>authors of
>> >CCS)
>> >have written? They like gay people. A lot!
>>
>> Any theories on why they like it?
>
>Any theories on why they call themselves 'CLAMP?'
It's supposed to refer to a bunch of potatoes, according to an interview
they did with "Animerica."
Sarah
KireiSarah
>authors of
>> >CCS)
>> >have written? They like gay people. A lot!
>>
>> Any theories on why they like it?
>
>Any theories on why they call themselves 'CLAMP?'
>
:/ Do not question the great CLAMP. Besides, I like gay people a lot too.
^__________^ And they *do* have several straight couples, it's not like they're
yaoi-only O.o I mean, it's not like you're gonna ask "Why does CLAMP like
straight people so much?" but they do have many many heterosexual couples too.
They're just... covering all the bases, I guess. ^_^
Kirei the Straight-as-/\/\/\/\/\/
Leaping Larry Jojo
akel...@aol.comeonbaby
>
> "Time to die."
> --Rand al'Thor, "Winter's Heart"
"Time to end."
--Leaping Larry Jojo on "The Wheel of Time" series.
Fish Eye no Miko
>In article <t54o5rl...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
>
>> Yeah. And Haruka and Michiru are "just friends".
>> Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE
>> TIME. If you can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
>
>Ahhh, I can't handle it either (or choose not to, actually, due to
>religious issues), but fortunately the world of anime is vast and
>infinite, and there's plenty of other stuff (even shoujo) that
>doesn't "go there".
Fair enough. But do you try to ignore or deny the gay
characters/plotlines/etc that do exist in anime? There's a difference
between not watching shows with gay content and denying the gay content
that does exist because it doesn't fit your world view.
>But never mind that!!!
>WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^_^
Thanks, Daniel! ^_^
>--Daniel
>can't believe you just dropped unobtrusively into a thread like that ^_^
Actually, I've been "dropp[ing] unobtrusively" into threads for a few days
now... ^_^
Fish Eye no Miko
<20010102210418...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
>Welcome back, Fish Eye!
Thanks, Xander!
<though I'm FE no Miko... Fish Eye is the character I like...>
>Alexander Harris
>Who did a double take when he saw the name of the poster....
Hehhe....
Benjamin D. Hutchins
>Leaping Larry Jojo wrote in message <92u1e6$1l2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
>
>It's supposed to refer to a bunch of potatoes, according to an interview
>they did with "Animerica."
I have a sneaking suspicion that that answer is about as straight as
the time the lead singer from KMFDM claimed it stands for "Kill Mother
F*cking Depeche Mode". :)
--G.
--
_O_ Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder, Continuity Line Editor, webmaster
[. .] Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><-
- Cyberleader Darul says: "0 dB SPL is the lowest level of 1KHz tone
the average person can detect." WWW: http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Matt Martin
Leaping Larry Jojo <macr...@excite.com> imparted the following wisdom unto us:
> In article <20010102210418...@ng-fw1.aol.com>,
> akel...@aol.comeonbaby
>
> >
> > "Time to die."
> > --Rand al'Thor, "Winter's Heart"
>
> "Time to end."
> --Leaping Larry Jojo on "The Wheel of Time" series.
"Time to die, nerd-boy."
-- Bun-Bun, _Sluggy Freelance_
--
Matt Martin -=- buford @ nekomusume.net -=- http://nekomusume.net/
"If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried."
-- Steven Wright
Arnold Kim
Jose (JRDelirio) Diaz <jrdeli...@worldnet.removetorepyatt.com> wrote in
message news:r5u46.87$jO....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote in message ...
> >
> >Christian Labrie wrote in message ...
> >
> >>I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there is
> >>homosexuality in CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
> >
> >THAT'S an interesting typo...
>
> Sounds like a twisted Term-Paper subject ^_^
> "Cardcaptor Sexuality, or, When is a Magic Wand Just a Magic Wand? An
> Analysis of Polymorphous Perversions in Magical-Girl Anime"
Actually, the first line of that sounds like the title of a really twisted
Bullwinkle episode. :)
Arnold Kim
James 'Tengu' King
news:t557gte...@corp.supernews.com...
> vanfanel wrote in message <92tp0k$qn8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >--Daniel
> >can't believe you just dropped unobtrusively into a thread like that ^_^
>
>
> Actually, I've been "dropp[ing] unobtrusively" into threads for a few days
> now... ^_^
No you haven't...every time you have, you've gotten a big rousing 'Welcome
Back!' (Kurt says 'Welkommen!', BTW. ^__~)
You didn't honestly think you could start posting again and not have welcome
back hijacks, did you? Didn't think so.
--
James 'Tengu' King - The Tanuki of Total Bewilderment
"Hello, Mr. Postmodern"
-Lyabibrave referring to me on r.a.a.m.
Visit the Anime Tangents Page: http://westwood.fortunecity.com/smith/467/
Desperate, for something to touch
A moment of kindness like that in a dream
Your innocent eyes, have yet no idea
of the path your destiny will follow...
- Cruel Angel's Thesis - English Translation
Lee Rekker
>> "Time to die."
>> --Rand al'Thor, "Winter's Heart"
>
>"Time to end."
> --Leaping Larry Jojo on "The Wheel of Time" series.
>
Oh, god, not you too Jojo.
I actually respected you, too... :)
Seriously, this series is spectacular! How could you want it to end?
Alexander Harris
Who really thought that shot was uncalled for. Funny, but uncalled for...
_______________
Jap. translator needed for Love Hina manga; please volunteer:
http://www.archive1.f2s.com/1/main.html
(Warning: that site has some hentai content. Dance lightly.)
"Time to die."
Lee Rekker
>
>
>Thanks, Xander!
><though I'm FE no Miko... Fish Eye is the character I like...>
I know. I was just shortening it (see "Xander" for more information about that.
:) ).
Alexander Harris
Defender of truth, porn, and Robert Jordan.
Sarah Davis
Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote in message <92u7t8$3oj$1...@rei.nerv.gweep.net>...
>Sarah Davis <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
>>Leaping Larry Jojo wrote in message <92u1e6$1l2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>>
>>>Any theories on why they call themselves 'CLAMP?'
>>
>>It's supposed to refer to a bunch of potatoes, according to an interview
>>they did with "Animerica."
>
>I have a sneaking suspicion that that answer is about as straight as
>the time the lead singer from KMFDM claimed it stands for "Kill Mother
>F*cking Depeche Mode". :)
Oh, I don't know. The Japanese people have this funny way of perverting the
English language to benefit them. CLAMP would mean *anything*, including,
yes, a bunch of potatoes. ^_^
Sarah
r...@rgmondo.cjb.net
"Sarah Davis" <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
> Oh, I don't know. The Japanese people have this funny way of
perverting the
> English language to benefit them. CLAMP would mean *anything*,
including,
> yes, a bunch of potatoes. ^_^
>
People may think that "CLAMP" mean "Crackpot Lesbian Manga People"!
-rgmondo
Sarah Davis
r...@rgmondo.cjb.net wrote in message <92uh85$dqn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <92udna$7g5bq$1...@ID-55621.news.dfncis.de>,
> "Sarah Davis" <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I don't know. The Japanese people have this funny way of
>perverting the
>> English language to benefit them. CLAMP would mean *anything*,
>including,
>> yes, a bunch of potatoes. ^_^
>>
>
>People may think that "CLAMP" mean "Crackpot Lesbian Manga People"!
CLMP?
Sarah
Benjamin D. Hutchins
>r...@rgmondo.cjb.net wrote in message <92uh85$dqn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
>
>CLMP?
Nah, it's one'a them military acronyms - you have to capitalize the
'A' in 'Lesbian' to make it work.
--G.
COMSUBPAC
Led Mirage
wrote:
>
>Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
>
>Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
>
>Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original? Is
>that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
Huh? What's the problem? You have to be as slow as Sakura to not know
how Tomoyo feels about Sakura. I think the same scene was in the
anime, too. In the character album, Tomoyo gave Sakura chocolate at
Valentine's Day and talked about "her happyness".
Led Mirage
wrote:
BTW I don't know what's the law is right now, but it's ok for cousins
get married in Japan, or at least used to.
M Arnold
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
> > Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME.
> > If you can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
>
> Ahhh, I can't handle it either (or choose not to, actually, due to
> religious issues), but fortunately the world of anime is vast and
Hey, a lot of people in Japan can't handle it either... even the ones who are
supposed to be watching these so-called "gay" shows. So the question is, are
they really gay, or what are they? I asked a Japanese female friend who's
also seen Utena several days ago and told her that I've heard a lot of people
celebrating it (and other anime) as a pro-gay series... she laughed, and
said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
If Christian's got problems with gay lifestyles or stories about gays, he's
not alone. A lot of people in Japan, including the straight little girls
watching these shows, have some serious reservations about them too.
Mike A
M Arnold
> English language to benefit them. CLAMP would mean *anything*, including,
> yes, a bunch of potatoes. ^_^
Knowing katakana, it could mean Cramp...
Mike A
Wednesday
>Lee Rekker asks...
>>>http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
>>>manga.html
>It's the real deal. (Mixx) Plus, I _have_ confirmed from different sources
>that the translation is good. That was said in the original Japanese as well.
And it's in the Manga Player/Pika Edition version as well, albeit in French.
--
baby's first covert operation: an "i can frag" book ::::::::::: [ wednesday ]
:: animeconUK2001: 5-7 october 01 * liverpool * http://www.animecon.org.uk ::
Wednesday
>Is the idea that CCS incorporates gay characters into its storyline
>really that difficult to deal with? CLAMP incorporates gay
>relationships in all of their manga.
Please stop these rumours! There is no homosexuality in Miyuki-chan!
The Queen is just very friendly!
-- w. (blague)
Sarah Davis
M Arnold wrote in message <92ut57$msa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> "Sarah Davis" <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
>
>> English language to benefit them. CLAMP would mean *anything*, including,
>> yes, a bunch of potatoes. ^_^
>
>Knowing katakana, it could mean Cramp...
But knowing the Roman alphabet, it's officially spelled CLAMP, as seen on
any and all CLAMP productions, and, according to an interview [1],
officially means "just a bunch of potatoes." For those curious, the word
"clamp" refers to potatoes being kept in a pit that is covered with hay,
straw, or sod. One of them probably learned this in home economics class (or
something similar) and thought it would be funny to name the group after a
primitive storage unit for potatoes. How's that for useless trivia?
[1] "Animerica" Vol. 5, No. 1
Sarah
Sarah Davis
M Arnold wrote in message <92utg6$n6k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> vanfanel <alse...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
>
>> > Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME.
>> > If you can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
>>
>> Ahhh, I can't handle it either (or choose not to, actually, due to
>> religious issues), but fortunately the world of anime is vast and
>
>Hey, a lot of people in Japan can't handle it either... even the ones who
are
>supposed to be watching these so-called "gay" shows. So the question is,
are
>they really gay, or what are they? I asked a Japanese female friend who's
>also seen Utena several days ago and told her that I've heard a lot of
people
>celebrating it (and other anime) as a pro-gay series... she laughed, and
>said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
But it is homoeroticism, even if it was meant to appeal to heterosexual boys
and girls. It doesn't have to have anything to do with real gay people or
real gay issues. Really, we're just dealing with a simple question of
anatomy. The psychology is, rather obviously, quite another, more
complicated matter, and I don't think that anyone was disputing that. The
thread was about the *presence* of same-sex relationships, not about the
*implications* thereof.
>If Christian's got problems with gay lifestyles or stories about gays, he's
>not alone. A lot of people in Japan, including the straight little girls
>watching these shows, have some serious reservations about them too.
So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females in
romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable, he is
going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime and
manga.
Sarah
vanfanel
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
> vanfanel wrote in message <92tp0k$qn8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> Fair enough. But do you try to ignore or deny the gay
> characters/plotlines/etc that do exist in anime?
Nah. I do remember some folks trying to do that when we watched "The
Color Purple" years ago, and I wouldn't let them get away with it :)
> Actually, I've been "dropp[ing] unobtrusively" into threads for a few
> days now... ^_^
I probably would've spotted your handle, but with all the welcoming, I
doubt that it's stayed at the top of any given thread for very long :)
--Daniel
M Arnold
> >said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
>
> But it is homoeroticism, even if it was meant to appeal to heterosexual boys
> and girls.
It was probably meant to appeal to girls but not boys.
> thread was about the *presence* of same-sex relationships, not about the
> *implications* thereof.
So the question remains: *are* same sex relationships present?
> So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females in
> romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable, he is
> going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime and
> manga.
He'll have a hard time avoiding them because there are (supposedly) a lot of
them in anime, not because he doesn't like them.
I think I understand what you mean though and that makes some sense, but
there are a lot of young Japanese people (and people in other countries) who
are very uncomfortable with same-sex relationships but still watch and enjoy
these shows, characters and relationshiips. Pleasant, law-abiding citizens
can watch stories about murder, perfectly friendly folks can watch anime porn
about children... I think you can safely do both here too; comfortably watch
a romantic "same sex relationship" and be very uncomfortable with romantic
"same sex relationships." Watching it doesn't have to mean you approve of
it. Even if it does mean you approve of it, what exactly are you watching?
Besides, I think the point being made was that the characters weren't gay.
M Arnold
> >said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
>
> But it is homoeroticism, even if it was meant to appeal to heterosexual boys
> and girls.
It was probably meant to appeal to girls but not boys.
> thread was about the *presence* of same-sex relationships, not about the
> *implications* thereof.
So the question remains: *are* same sex relationships present?
> So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females in
> romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable, he is
> going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime and
> manga.
He'll have a hard time avoiding them because there are (supposedly) a lot of
them in anime, not because he doesn't like them.
I think I understand what you mean though and that makes some sense, but
there are a lot of young Japanese people (and people in other countries) who
are very uncomfortable with same-sex relationships but still watch and enjoy
these shows, characters and relationships. Pleasant, law-abiding citizens
can watch stories about murder, perfectly friendly folks can watch anime porn
about children... I think you can safely do both here too; comfortably watch
a romantic "same sex relationship" and be very uncomfortable with romantic
"same sex relationships." Watching it doesn't have to mean you approve of
it. Even if it does mean you approve of it, what exactly are you watching?
Besides, I think the point being made was that the characters weren't gay.
Mike A
Kyle Thomas Pope
>If Christian's got problems with gay lifestyles or stories about gays, he's
>not alone. A lot of people in Japan, including the straight little girls
>watching these shows, have some serious reservations about them too.
Nonetheless, whatever issues the Japanese may have with gays doesn't
prevent them from depicting gays in their popular entertainment. An
openly gay character in American children's animation is still largely
unheard of but they've been a routine part of anime for decades.
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered." - No. 6
Arnold Kim
Led Mirage <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3a5ad965...@news.netvigator.com...
Yep. I recall that was a major part of the plot in Laughing Target.
Arnold Kim
Animeg3282
>So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females in
>romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable, he is
>going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime and
>manga.
Truly, I would like to remind everyone that this is the year 2001. Time to grow
up, folks.
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
"Kero Kero!" Mimori, KeroKero Chime
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282 <---Fancy Lala Club! All better now!
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282/graduation.html <Graduation website.
Olivier Hagué
<sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
>But knowing the Roman alphabet, it's officially spelled CLAMP, as seen on
>any and all CLAMP productions, and, according to an interview [1],
>officially means "just a bunch of potatoes." For those curious, the word
>"clamp" refers to potatoes being kept in a pit that is covered with hay,
>straw, or sod. One of them probably learned this in home economics class (or
>something similar) and thought it would be funny to name the group after a
>primitive storage unit for potatoes. How's that for useless trivia?
And that's also why the Clamp School was created by the famous
Imonoyama family ("imo no yama" = "bunch of potatoes")...
miaka...@my-deja.com
> Huh? What's the problem? You have to be as slow as Sakura to not know
> how Tomoyo feels about Sakura. I think the same scene was in the
> anime, too. In the character album, Tomoyo gave Sakura chocolate at
> Valentine's Day and talked about "her happyness".
>
Another piece of proof to Tomoyo's love for Sakura is in episode 50
when they go to buy teddy bears, and Sakura asks Tomoyo if shes going
to get one. Tomoyo says no. All that matters to her is that if the one
that she likes is happy, then she is happy. "True, if that person were
to return my feeling I would be very happy. But all that matters is if
that person is happy." Sakura then looks at her and says that she is
sure "that person" is happy (having no clue Tomoyo means her). And
Tomoyo says "You think so?"
chicogrande
akel...@aol.comeonbaby (Lee Rekker) wrote:
> >And then there's Tomoyo.
> >http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy-
> >manga.html
> >
> >Try to deny that snippet from the manga.
>
> Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
>
> Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
>
> Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original? Is
> that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
>
> _______________
Oh, give *me* a break!! Is that your great big proof! Ha ha ha! I
laugh at your weak (so weak) proof. God in heaven, in Japanese if you
say "dai suki!" you pretty much say "I like you a lot!" If you say "Ai
shiteru!" you pretty much say "I love you!" Now, what does it say *in*
Japanese?
Your little perverted minds are just that, little. You are confusing
people and probably making them think that we, by association, are some
sort of perverts. Tomoyo likes Sakura a lot because she is her friend
and yes, she is a lot "otaku" when it comes to vidoetaping her pal. Who
knows, maybe the gals at CLAMP are just portraying a rich excentric
character.
--
http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/spa/6154/index.html
Gorilla Otoko's page of....
Come and see me sometime!
chicogrande
"Miki no Miko" <Jenerat...@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> Christian Labrie <f.b...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:Zsr46.4766$vi3.1...@weber.videotron.net...
> > I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there is
> > homosexuality in
> > CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
> >
> > revealed in season 2 (if she's ever released...)
>
> Ah, that's one reason, yes. Who says it's the ONLY one? Remember, CCS is
> Clamp. They like their gay characters an awful lot, it seems. ^^
>
> > Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship beyond
> > friendship!
>
> Er.. In the manga, it's blatently explained at one point that Yukito is in
> love with Sakura's brother... ^_^;;
>
> Not to mention Tomoyo has this psycho-stalker type crush on Sakura. o.o
> She's scary.
>
> --
Ah! You are all full of it.
(Sarcasm on!)Hey! Don't forget about Kero-chan sneaking peeks at Sakura
when she showers! Oh yeaah baby!!(Sarcasm off!)
Olivier Hagué
wrote:
>Your little perverted minds are just that, little. You are confusing
>people and probably making them think that we, by association, are some
>sort of perverts. Tomoyo likes Sakura a lot because she is her friend
>and yes, she is a lot "otaku" when it comes to vidoetaping her pal. Who
>knows, maybe the gals at CLAMP are just portraying a rich excentric
>character.
Right, and there's a helluva friendship between Subaru and Seishirô...
^^
(oh, and being in love isn't a "perversion", as far as I know...)
Leaping Larry Jojo
akel...@aol.comeonbaby (Lee Rekker) wrote:
> >>
> >> "Time to die."
> >> --Rand al'Thor, "Winter's Heart"
> >
> >"Time to end."
> > --Leaping Larry Jojo on "The Wheel of Time" series.
> >
>
> Oh, god, not you too Jojo.
>
> I actually respected you, too... :)
>
> Seriously, this series is spectacular! How could you want it to end?
>
> Alexander Harris
> Who really thought that shot was uncalled for. Funny, but uncalled
for...
Hee, hee. I really liked the first four or so books, but Jordan kept
introducing more and more subplots without wrapping them up. Now we
have a gazillion subplots with a gazillion characters moving nowhere.
It's like some big mud monster that just gathered up so much muck it
can't move anymore. In fact, I'd think it doesn't want to.
Plus, Rand was getting to be a whining pain in the ass. The women, with
the exception of Min, were getting annoying and well, bitchy, and as
much world-building as it has, it's really worth nothing since I don't
care so much for the characters anymore. Come back, Moiraine Sedai!
Jojo
chicogrande
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> Andy said:
>
> >
> >Do you have any idea of some of the other manga that CLAMP (the authors of
> >CCS)
> >have written? They like gay people. A lot!
>
> Any theories on why they like it?
>
It is not "they" alone sparky. Japanese manga has a looong history
ranging from female characters impersonating men to downright male-
homosexual affairs. This is historically almost exclusively limited to
young girls and ladies manga. The whole point is for the reader to see,
for one, how a female character behaves in a male world, IMO. The other
gives females a chance to explore human relationships through male
couples. Mind you, these male couples are very, how you say, delicate.
They represent a romantic ideal and, for the most part, are not meant to
be an endorsement of the lifestyle (fantasy is prettier that reality).
Young female readers of manga are themselves begining to be exposed to
crushes with male counterparts and young girls and ladies manga reflect
the intense emotion and feelings that are traditionally attributed to the
fickle female heart. Boys and men's manga are almost all testosterone
driven. For the most part, they would not be caught dead reading a
pastel colored, flowery, romantic, girl's manga. (Cooties!!)
Cardcaptor Sakura is a young girl's manga. It is sooo pink! It may have
some cross-over appeal, but is almost exclusively a girl thing. Can
anyone say (except the ladies) how female friendships are constructed and
what emotions drive them? In some of your crude (male) minds you seem to
have decided. I still say that Tomoyo is just an eccentric (sp?) rich
girl. And for Pete's sake, they are just children!
--
http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/spa/6154/index.html
Gorilla Otoko's page of....
Come and see me sometime!
Galen Musbach
chicogrande wrote:
>
>
> (Sarcasm on!)Hey! Don't forget about Kero-chan sneaking peeks at Sakura
> when she showers! Oh yeaah baby!!(Sarcasm off!)
>
And why does Zenki peep on Chiaki when she's changing?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Sarah Davis
M Arnold wrote in message <92vg2l$5gv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> "Sarah Davis" <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
>
>> >said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
>>
>> But it is homoeroticism, even if it was meant to appeal to heterosexual
boys
>> and girls.
>
>It was probably meant to appeal to girls but not boys.
In this case. I was speaking in more general terms. OTOH, I *do* know gay
males who read shoujo manga for the depictions of these relationships.
>> thread was about the *presence* of same-sex relationships, not about the
>> *implications* thereof.
>
>So the question remains: *are* same sex relationships present?
It's all about anatomy. A male character in a homosexual pairing in a yaoi
manga may very well be meant to represent (or titillate) the young ladies
reading the story, but he still has a penis, as does his lover, making it a
same-sex relationship.
>> So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females in
>> romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable, he is
>> going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime and
>> manga.
>
>He'll have a hard time avoiding them because there are (supposedly) a lot
of
>them in anime, not because he doesn't like them.
That's what I said: That they turn up regularly and that if this makes him
uncomfortable, he'll be finding himself uncomfortable often.
>I think I understand what you mean though and that makes some sense, but
>there are a lot of young Japanese people (and people in other countries)
who
>are very uncomfortable with same-sex relationships but still watch and
enjoy
>these shows, characters and relationshiips. Pleasant, law-abiding citizens
>can watch stories about murder, perfectly friendly folks can watch anime
porn
>about children... I think you can safely do both here too; comfortably
watch
>a romantic "same sex relationship" and be very uncomfortable with romantic
>"same sex relationships." Watching it doesn't have to mean you approve of
>it.
Well, yes... But this is exactly what you said in your last post. I wasn't
arguing with you about that since we're in agreement on this issue.
>Even if it does mean you approve of it, what exactly are you watching?
Fan service. The story of "Fake" could just as easily be written about a
male and female cop, but instead they're both males. I think we can both
figure out the big "why" involved. The same could be said for most shounen
ai and yaoi.
But let's not forget the few that don't fall into that category: those
which, to my eyes, actively erase the gender lines for the sake of
story-telling, such as Utena, and a *very* small number that depict actual
homosexual characters in fairly realistic circumstances, such as "Kaze To Ki
No Uta."
>Besides, I think the point being made was that the characters weren't gay.
That was the point of the original poster, who claimed that the characters
were just friends, which most would argue is not accurate. By the time it
got to "a lot of gay characters and plots," it was no longer just about the
CCS cast.
Sarah
Leaping Larry Jojo
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> Sarah said:
>
> >So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females
in
> >romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable,
he is
> >going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime
and
> >manga.
>
> Truly, I would like to remind everyone that this is the year 2001.
Time to grow
> up, folks.
Well, gay relationships as a focal point in a series are still pretty
rare. I know a lot of people who don't mind subplots about gay people
(Sailor Moon S, Utena sorta), but if the lead characters are straight-
up gay, they won't watch, because they're not interested in
homosexuality as a focal point in the series. (That was redundant of me)
That said, a lot of people still have beliefs and principles that they
stick to may not be very liberal or "modern," (I do too) but I think
it's okay to accept this as long as they don't try to spread these
controversial opinions as bottom-line rules.
Jojo
Liz S.
> >Please stop those rumors...
>
> The way you phrased that, one might think people were accusing the
> characters of rape and murder rather than ambiguous sexuality.
>
> Sarah
It appears that to some there's little difference.
Liz
David Crowe
: Sarah Davis <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
: >r...@rgmondo.cjb.net wrote in message <92uh85$dqn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
: >>
: >>People may think that "CLAMP" mean "Crackpot Lesbian Manga People"!
: >
: >CLMP?
: Nah, it's one'a them military acronyms - you have to capitalize the
: 'A' in 'Lesbian' to make it work.
No, no! "Crackpot Lesbian Anime & Manga People"!
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
<Moan> "This episode of 'Buffy' is filled with continuity errors!
But I can't reach my internet newsgroup to *complain*!
Worst punishment ever!"
-Comic store guy in Hell, Simpsons Treehouse of Horror #6.
Sarah Davis
Animeg3282 wrote in message
<20010103130223...@ng-fs1.aol.com>...
>Sarah said:
>
>>So? The point being made was that if seeing two males or two females in
>>romantic or sexual relationships makes someone feel uncomfortable, he is
>>going to have a hard time avoiding these things altogether in anime and
>>manga.
>
>Truly, I would like to remind everyone that this is the year 2001. Time to
grow
>up, folks.
The "get modern" technique never works where questions of morality are
involved. Dates have little bearing on convictions and values.
Sarah
Animeg3282
>
>The "get modern" technique never works where questions of morality are
>involved. Dates have little bearing on convictions and values.
>
Maybe, but why are values never a serious call to morals, but usually just a
way to either say that they are better than you or to push someone else down.
And why is bigotry more moral than love? Who comes up with these screwed up
systems? If people spent even two seconds thinking for themselves, we wouldn't
have these problems, but sadly they don't. They follow blindly, not seeing how
their actions are affecting others. And that is a tragedy. "When did ignorance
become a point of view?"- Dilbert.
M Arnold
> Nonetheless, whatever issues the Japanese may have with gays doesn't
> prevent them from depicting gays in their popular entertainment. An
And that's why I question whether we should call them "gay" so easily.
> openly gay character in American children's animation is still largely
> unheard of but they've been a routine part of anime for decades.
I've seen several gay characters in American TV shows and films. I've seen
relatively few gay characters in Japanese live action film and TV though...
even with something like Kitchen or Okoge the story is not really about gays,
it's about a straight female. It strikes me as a little strange that
Japanese media is so willing to play around with "gay" characters... only
when they're in a safely fantastic genre like comics or animation (or pop
fiction novels).
Mike A
M Arnold
>If two characters are the same sex and have a relationship, that pretty
>much means that a same-sex relationship is present, even if it might not
>be aimed at an audience of real-life gay people.
Then I guess we could also say that something like Broken Blossoms is really
about Chinese people, or Sayonara (starring the likes of Ricardo Montalban)
is pretty much really about Japanese people...
Charmian
M Arnold <m...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com wrote:
>
> > Nonetheless, whatever issues the Japanese may have with gays doesn't
> > prevent them from depicting gays in their popular entertainment. An
>
> And that's why I question whether we should call them "gay" so easily.
>
You have a point that their "gayness" is not very authentic compared to
manga actually produced by gay people for gay people. But if they
aren't gay, can they be called straight?
BTW, I don't think Utena is exactly a good example of "implied"
homosexuality in anime, because there aren't any real "gay"
relationships, only one way things. Although, would you argue that Juri
was not a lesbian? Strangely, she wasn't in the manga, from what I
hear.
(And what does one make of shoujo-ai within shoujo anime/manga? We've
already discussed how yaoi is analogous to the lesbian sex doujins sold
to male fans. )
But for the purposes of this thread, I think we're concerned with how
Westerners would label these characters, and especially how Westerners
not schooled in the often polymorphous perversity (joking) of anime
would view them (in the West, we don't have a name for brother/sister
complex, and certainly wouldn't put one in children's entertainment).
Also,
S
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
f
o
r
C
C
S
m
a
n
g
a
(Note that the gay relationships in CCS are not the most shocking part
of Card Captor Sexuality. Think about Rika, her teacher, and the ring.
Argh!!! and how Sakura's parents met, and what their relationship was
at the time. Plus, some people think there's something with Kaho and
Eriol, and Kaho used to date Touya, I believe.)
Charmian, bringing more disturbingness.....
Louis Patterson
> In article <20010103002252...@ng-fw1.aol.com>,
> akel...@aol.comeonbaby (Lee Rekker) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "Time to die."
> > >> --Rand al'Thor, "Winter's Heart"
> > >
> > >"Time to end."
> > > --Leaping Larry Jojo on "The Wheel of Time" series.
> > >
> >
> > Oh, god, not you too Jojo.
> >
> > I actually respected you, too... :)
> >
> > Seriously, this series is spectacular! How could you want it to end?
> >
> > Alexander Harris
> > Who really thought that shot was uncalled for. Funny, but uncalled
> for...
>
> Hee, hee. I really liked the first four or so books, but Jordan kept
> introducing more and more subplots without wrapping them up. Now we
> have a gazillion subplots with a gazillion characters moving nowhere.
> It's like some big mud monster that just gathered up so much muck it
> can't move anymore. In fact, I'd think it doesn't want to.
It's the tatarigami!! Don't touch it, or you'll get cursed! All the pain,
angst, and subplots just festered inside it, as the plot crashed madly
westward
> Plus, Rand was getting to be a whining pain in the ass. The women, with
> the exception of Min, were getting annoying and well, bitchy, and as
> much world-building as it has, it's really worth nothing since I don't
> care so much for the characters anymore. Come back, Moiraine Sedai!
Me, I gave up after book one [where I suspect it was originally meant to
end], then again after book three and book five. I don't think I'm going
to pick it up again in a hurry...
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
Liz S.
>
> In article <930rcq$cm6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> M Arnold <m...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com wrote:
> >
> > > Nonetheless, whatever issues the Japanese may have with gays doesn't
> > > prevent them from depicting gays in their popular entertainment. An
> >
> > And that's why I question whether we should call them "gay" so easily.
> >
>
> You have a point that their "gayness" is not very authentic compared to
> manga actually produced by gay people for gay people. But if they
> aren't gay, can they be called straight?
Shoujo and yaoi and whatnot really tends to be fairly apolitical in that
respect. Within series, characters aren't normally refered to as "gay"
and I don't believe that the audience feels any real need for them to be
placed in a category like that. In shoujo, people can be non-gender
exclusive and not be thought of any differently.
Stange as it may seem, in yaoi (where the main point is to see guys get
it on) it's said that no one is gay--it's just that the person whoever
happened to fall in love with was a guy.
> BTW, I don't think Utena is exactly a good example of "implied"
> homosexuality in anime, because there aren't any real "gay"
> relationships, only one way things. Although, would you argue that Juri
> was not a lesbian? Strangely, she wasn't in the manga, from what I
> hear.
Well...with Utena, the manga, the tv series, and the movie take place in
different worlds (and the manga and anime were developed separately at
the same time). They belong to the same family, but they're completely
different species altogether.
Anyway, it could be argued that Juri is a lesbian. But what would be the
point? Would anything be different if she were or weren't? I think all
that really matters is that she had this unrequitted love and it was one
of the driving parts of her character.
> (And what does one make of shoujo-ai within shoujo anime/manga? We've
> already discussed how yaoi is analogous to the lesbian sex doujins sold
> to male fans. )
That's interesting actually. In the doujinshi market and now very slowly
in commercial manga (there's at least one mainstream manga now, I think
it's called Angel Dust, that depicts f/f relationships) shoujo ai is
becoming more popular among girls. From what I can tell, it goes like
this: In Japan, relationships between girls are strong, and if those
relationships cross into the realm of romantic love, that's their
business. Basically, while it's expected that they'll settle down with
men eventually, if in their youth they want to have a relationship with
another girl no one's going to stop them. That's what I've heard anyway.
Actually, I'm reminded of that ep of Kare Kano, where Yukino's younger
sister thinks this other girl wants her. When her dad hears about it he
says "No one's marrying my princess, not even if it's another girl!" ^_^
I also think that there is an appeal, from a female perspective, to
shoujo ai. For one, it's non-threatening. It seems that the idea is,
"guys and relationships with guys can be scary, being with a girl seems
safer and warmer". Second...well, that's probably the main appeal. I
guess you could say that it's also exotic and pretty if you wanted to.
> But for the purposes of this thread, I think we're concerned with how
> Westerners would label these characters, and especially how Westerners
> not schooled in the often polymorphous perversity (joking) of anime
> would view them (in the West, we don't have a name for brother/sister
> complex, and certainly wouldn't put one in children's entertainment).
"perverted Japanese cartoons" :P
I do have a guy friend who knows about my interest in shoujo manga (not
that he knows what that is or anything ^_~) but I've told him enough
that he has an awareness of the presence of "alternative relationships"
of what yaoi is.
His joking conclusion was "Ah, Japanese people, they like to fantasize
about all that stuff but they'll never do anything."
Liz
Andy00
>> >And then there's Tomoyo.
>>
>http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~as798/madhouse/anime-shrine/tomoyo-chan/dodgy
-manga.html
>> >
>> >Try to deny that snippet from the manga.
>>
>> Wwwwwhhhhhhooooooaaaaaa......
>>
>> Tell me that's a doctored pic. It's GOTTA be.
>>
>> Can anyone else here who has the manga confirm that that's the original?
>Is
>> that from the Mixx American release, or the billingual release?
>>
>> Alexander Harris
>> _______________
>
>Oh, give *me* a break!! Is that your great big proof! Ha ha ha! I
>laugh at your weak (so weak) proof. God in heaven, in Japanese if you
>say "dai suki!" you pretty much say "I like you a lot!" If you say "Ai
>shiteru!" you pretty much say "I love you!" Now, what does it say *in*
>Japanese?
<g> Which is exactly the word used by Fujitaka in describing his feelings for
Nadeshiko. Considering they _married_ each other.....
In fact, _none_ of the couples in CCS use a stronger form of "I love you" in
the original Japanese.
Now. You tell me something.
Exactly what was Tomoyo having to "explain" to Sakura that she would understand
until she was older?
>
>Your little perverted minds are just that, little. You are confusing
>people and probably making them think that we, by association, are some
>sort of perverts. Tomoyo likes Sakura a lot because she is her friend
>and yes, she is a lot "otaku" when it comes to vidoetaping her pal. Who
>knows, maybe the gals at CLAMP are just portraying a rich excentric
>character.
Maybe? <g>
"I have been a word in a book."
The Song of Taliesin
"If you will practice being fictional for a while, you will understand that
fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and
heartbeats."
Richard Bach -- "Illusions"
Andy00
>> >Do you have any idea of some of the other manga that CLAMP (the authors
>of
>> >CCS)
>> >have written? They like gay people. A lot!
>>
>> Any theories on why they like it?
>>
>
>It is not "they" alone sparky.
Relax, man. I ain't dissing them for it.
Japanese manga has a looong history
>ranging from female characters impersonating men to downright male-
>homosexual affairs.
I know. ^^
This is historically almost exclusively limited to
>young girls and ladies manga. The whole point is for the reader to see,
>for one, how a female character behaves in a male world, IMO. The other
>gives females a chance to explore human relationships through male
>couples. Mind you, these male couples are very, how you say, delicate.
>They represent a romantic ideal and, for the most part, are not meant to
>be an endorsement of the lifestyle (fantasy is prettier that reality).
>Young female readers of manga are themselves begining to be exposed to
>crushes with male counterparts and young girls and ladies manga reflect
>the intense emotion and feelings that are traditionally attributed to the
>fickle female heart. Boys and men's manga are almost all testosterone
>driven. For the most part, they would not be caught dead reading a
>pastel colored, flowery, romantic, girl's manga. (Cooties!!)
>
>Cardcaptor Sakura is a young girl's manga. It is sooo pink! It may have
>some cross-over appeal, but is almost exclusively a girl thing. Can
>anyone say (except the ladies) how female friendships are constructed and
>what emotions drive them? In some of your crude (male) minds you seem to
>have decided.
Crude minds? I'm saying Tomoyo is in love with Sakura. I'm not saying that
they're hot lesbo action girl-on-girl porn stars.
You are the one who needs your perceptions of love cleared up.
I still say that Tomoyo is just an eccentric (sp?) rich
>girl. And for Pete's sake, they are just children!
Right. And so are Li and Sakura. Also, one of Sakura's class-mates gets
engaged to her teacher. Realistic? No. However, CLAMP isn't afraid of kids
being in love in a less-than-orthodox manner.
Sarah Davis
Animeg3282 wrote in message
<20010103224014...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
>Sarah said:
>
>>
>>The "get modern" technique never works where questions of morality are
>>involved. Dates have little bearing on convictions and values.
>>
>
>Maybe, but why are values never a serious call to morals, but usually just
a
>way to either say that they are better than you or to push someone else
down.
Morality depends on the individual. One man's laws are another's man's
crimes. It may be vanity, it may be stupidity, it may be any number of
things. It's certainly an fact of life, pleasant or not, and it is settled
in that unpopular, uncomfortable question: Who decides what is right and
wrong?
>And why is bigotry more moral than love? Who comes up with these screwed up
>systems?
To the credit of bigots everywhere, I've met some who were highly
intelligent and thoughtful in many cases, but were also devastatingly
closeminded when being otherwise didn't suit them.
>If people spent even two seconds thinking for themselves, we wouldn't
>have these problems, but sadly they don't. They follow blindly, not seeing
how
>their actions are affecting others. And that is a tragedy. "When did
ignorance
>become a point of view?"- Dilbert.
I agree. You will find, however, that individuality is difficult to attain,
let alone *maintain*, for a species so dependant on being part of a defined
social caste.
Sarah
Tolaris
>Now. You tell me something.
>
>Exactly what was Tomoyo having to "explain" to Sakura that she would understand
>until she was older?
--
A good question, considering Sakura may be naive, but isn't
stupid. Exactly what makes people believe it's the concept
of 'adult' love she wouldn't understand until she's older?
=P
Tolaris
who'd rather expect Tomoyo to reveal her secret, Lecter'ish
tendencies instead...<g>
M Arnold
> Morality depends on the individual.
Morality depends on a whole lot of things, but "The Individual" is
probably one of the last on the list. "The Individual" just gets stuck
making excuses for her/hisself after buying into something s/he heard
someone else say somewhere.
> One man's laws are another's man's crimes.
One man alone can't create crimes or laws.
> To the credit of bigots everywhere, I've met some who were highly
> intelligent and thoughtful in many cases, but were also devastatingly
> closeminded when being otherwise didn't suit them.
Sounds like the way my Japanese coworkers (men especially) react when I
mention something about a gay friend.
> individuality is difficult to attain,
Uh-huh. Like what I said above.
Would you believe me if I told you that I have spoken with more than a
few Japanese adults who honestly--no exaggeration--believe that there
are *no* gay people in Japan, and that they only exist in the west?
"Wow, I guess there really are lots of gay people in America, huh Mike.
There aren't any in Japan though. Did you know that?"
Mike A
M Arnold
> You have a point that their "gayness" is not very authentic compared
to
> manga actually produced by gay people for gay people. But if they
> aren't gay, can they be called straight?
Maybe instead of the characters, we should describe the *exchange*
happening between authors, viewers and whatever inbetween as "straight."
> BTW, I don't think Utena is exactly a good example of "implied"
> homosexuality in anime, because there aren't any real "gay"
> relationships, only one way things.
Good point. Even without gay relationships though, western fans tend to
label them as "gay."
> Although, would you argue that Juri was not a lesbian?
I think we could argue that.
> But for the purposes of this thread, I think we're concerned with how
> Westerners would label these characters,
Indeed.
Which reminds me, a few weeks ago I rented the first Echo Echo Azarak
film. I tried to see it in the US a couple of years ago but the only
one available on video there was the *second* film in the series... for
the following reason. In the first film, a female teacher is in a
"lesbian" relationship with one of her students. But -SPOILERS-
ultimately we discover that teacher behaves like that because she's the
villain, a witch or something, and she's seducing the girl for her own
evil plan. Not because she's "really" a lesbian. Interesting how in a
few scenes the story contrasts her role with that of the perverted,
student-groping male teacher.
In this case we could argue whether or not the teacher (and student)
were really "lesbians," but on top of that discuss the way the show was
villainizing female-female sexual relations. This also reminds me of
Sailor Moon, the way the senshi are always attacked by busty, sexually
mature adult women who try to steal their "magical purity" or whatever.
For comparison or contrast, the west also has a small genre of "lesbian
vampire" horror films...
Mike A
M Arnold
> Charmian wrote:
> > aren't gay, can they be called straight?
> Shoujo and yaoi and whatnot really tends to be fairly apolitical in
That's what all the evidence suggests...
> respect. Within series, characters aren't normally refered to as "gay"
> and I don't believe that the audience feels any real need for them to
be
> placed in a category like that. In shoujo, people can be non-gender
> exclusive and not be thought of any differently.
I think they still are limited to certain gender categories (if not we
might see more "really gay" characters... well, "really gay" is a
category too) but they can be different categories.
> becoming more popular among girls. From what I can tell, it goes like
> this: In Japan, relationships between girls are strong, and if those
> relationships cross into the realm of romantic love, that's their
Separate from the type of "gay" relationships you see in girls' comics,
there's also a whole lot of homoeroticism and male-male bonding in macho
genres like the yakuza movie and pornography...
> men eventually, if in their youth they want to have a relationship
with
> another girl no one's going to stop them. That's what I've heard
anyway.
And if they date a *girl*, by the time their husband takes them they'll
still be "pure."
> His joking conclusion was "Ah, Japanese people, they like to fantasize
> about all that stuff but they'll never do anything."
I laughed when I read this.
Mike A
M Arnold
> Ken Arromdee wrote:
>>If two characters are the same sex and have a relationship, that
pretty much means that a same-sex relationship is present, even if it
might not be aimed at an audience of real-life gay people.
Ken Arromdee wrote:
>Well, you can say anything you want.
>There's a difference between a show having gay people in it and being
about gay people.
I'm not sure if this jives with what you wrote above... but I'm
flattered if this means you agree with what I've been writing.
Miki no Miko
chicogrande <car...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93056q$pl9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <I1s46.215$fj6....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Miki no Miko" <Jenerat...@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> wrote:
> >
> > Christian Labrie <f.b...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> > news:Zsr46.4766$vi3.1...@weber.videotron.net...
> > > I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there
is
> > > homosexuality in
> > > CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
> > >
> > > The reason why Shaoran blushes every time he's close to Yukito will be
> > > revealed in season 2 (if she's ever released...)
> >
> > Ah, that's one reason, yes. Who says it's the ONLY one? Remember, CCS is
> > Clamp. They like their gay characters an awful lot, it seems. ^^
> >
> > > Second, Yukito and Sakura's brother did not have any relationship
beyond
> > > friendship!
> >
> > Er.. In the manga, it's blatently explained at one point that Yukito is
in
> > love with Sakura's brother... ^_^;;
> >
> > Not to mention Tomoyo has this psycho-stalker type crush on Sakura. o.o
> > She's scary.
> >
> > --
>
> Ah! You are all full of it.
>
> (Sarcasm on!)Hey! Don't forget about Kero-chan sneaking peeks at Sakura
> when she showers! Oh yeaah baby!!(Sarcasm off!)
Oh yeah, man, that SakuraxKerochan episode was the best ever..
--
Jen
Skeleton Man
"M Arnold" <m...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> Would you believe me if I told you that I have spoken with more than a
> few Japanese adults who honestly--no exaggeration--believe that there
> are *no* gay people in Japan, and that they only exist in the west?
> "Wow, I guess there really are lots of gay people in America, huh Mike.
> There aren't any in Japan though. Did you know that?"
>
Mention Mori Lanmaru to them next time.....
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
There's a new project in the works....
James
Charmian wrote:
> Plus, some people think there's something with Kaho and
> Eriol, and Kaho used to date Touya, I believe.)
>
It is a fact that there is "something" going on between Kaho and Eriol. All
you have to do is either read the last issue of the CCS manga or watch the
the last ep of CCS anime.
-James
Fish Eye no Miko
>>Yeah. And Haruka and Michiru are "just friends".
>
><Whine> Nuh-uh! They're COUSINS! </Whine>
Must... Destroy... Cloverway...
Catherine Johnson. And, yes, I know you're joking. ^_^
--
Remove "ima" to reply
Fish Eye no Miko
>Jose (JRDelirio) Diaz <jrdeli...@worldnet.removetorepyatt.com> wrote
>in message news:r5u46.87$jO....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> Fish Eye no Miko wrote in message ...
>> >Christian Labrie wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >>I would like to end once for all the urban legends saying that there
is
>> >>homosexuality in CARDCAPTOR SEXUALITY.
>> >
>> >THAT'S an interesting typo...
>>
>> Sounds like a twisted Term-Paper subject ^_^
>> "Cardcaptor Sexuality, or, When is a Magic Wand Just a Magic Wand?
>> An Analysis of Polymorphous Perversions in Magical-Girl Anime"
>
>Actually, the first line of that sounds like the title of a really twisted
>Bullwinkle episode. :)
Oh, dear God... Thanks for THAT image, Arnold...
Catherine Johnson. "Oh, ROCKY!"
Fish Eye no Miko
> vanfanel <alse...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
>
>> > Christian, gay characters and plots show up in anime ALL THE TIME.
>> > If you can't handle it, you'd better get out now.
>>
>> Ahhh, I can't handle it either (or choose not to, actually, due to
>> religious issues), but fortunately the world of anime is vast and
>
>Hey, a lot of people in Japan can't handle it either... even the ones who
are
>supposed to be watching these so-called "gay" shows. So the question is,
>are they really gay, or what are they? I asked a Japanese female friend
>who's also seen Utena several days ago and told her that I've heard a lot
>of people celebrating it (and other anime) as a pro-gay series... she
>laughed, and said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
And, of course, there's no way she could be wrong about that... I mean,
she's Japanese, so she MUST know, right? Right...
>If Christian's got problems with gay lifestyles or stories about gays,
he's
>not alone. A lot of people in Japan, including the straight little girls
>watching these shows, have some serious reservations about them too.
I said this in another post in this thread, but I'll repeat it:
If you have a problem with homosexuality, fine. But DON'T go around trying
to wipe out or dismiss gays/crossdressers/etc that DO exist in anime just
because the subject matter makes you uncomfortable. You don't like
crossdressers? Don't watch _Sailor Moon_, Fushigi Yuugi_, or _Pokemon_ for
that matter. You don't like lesbians? Don't watch _Sailor Moon_ or
_Utena_. You don't like gay men Don't watch _Sailor Moon_, or _Kaze no
Uta to Ki_, or even, arguably, _Gundam Wing_. But don't sit here and tell
me Haruka and Michiru aren't gay, or that James/Kojirou's not a
crossdresser, or that the relationship between Utena and Anthy doesn't at
least have homoerotic undertones, or that there's no possibility that Trowa
and/or Quatre are gay, or that Fish Eye's not a gay crossdresser, or...
Well, you get the picture.
In short: I wasn't objecting to Christian's not liking homosexuality, I
was objecting to his dismissal of it.
Catherine Johnson.
Fish Eye no Miko
M Arnold wrote in message <930rcq$cm6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com wrote:
>
>> Nonetheless, whatever issues the Japanese may have with gays
>> doesn't prevent them from depicting gays in their popular entertainment.
>
What would you define as "gay"? Do they have to be written by a gay
person, and act in a particular way? If so, then can a Black character
written by a White person really be "Black"?
>> An openly gay character in American children's animation is still
largely
>> unheard of but they've been a routine part of anime for decades.
>
>I've seen several gay characters in American TV shows and films.
For kids...? What shows are you watching?
Fish Eye no Miko
>I think I understand what you mean though and that makes some sense,
>but there are a lot of young Japanese people (and people in other
countries)
>who are very uncomfortable with same-sex relationships but still watch and
>enjoy these shows, characters and relationships. Pleasant, law-abiding
>citizens can watch stories about murder, perfectly friendly folks can
watch
>anime porn about children...
Oh, goody. Equating homosexuality with murder and kiddie porn. Wow, Mike,
I'm more and more convinced of your position with every post you make!
Jim Lazar
"Fish Eye no Miko" <fishey...@imaliveline.com> wrote in message
news:t59c6o4...@corp.supernews.com...
I just hope Pioneer manages to excise the 'cousins' from their "uncut" DVDs.
--
Jim Lazar
Animeprime - http://www.animeprime.com
(No Editing Zone/Fanfiction/DVD Case Covers)
Derek Janssen
> largely
> >> unheard of but they've been a routine part of anime for decades.
> >
> >I've seen several gay characters in American TV shows and films.
>
> For kids...? What shows are you watching?
Now, now, M!:
In response from accusations from Southern Baptists some years ago,
Disney executives OFFICIALLY stated, as a matter of public record, that
Scar, Jafar and Ratcliffe were in no way intended to be depicted as gay
characters--Get your facts straight.
Derek Jansen (heh...Yeah. Right. Heard that one before.)
dja...@ultranet.com
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com wrote:
>
> > openly gay character in American children's animation is still largely
> > unheard of but they've been a routine part of anime for decades.
>
> I've seen several gay characters in American TV shows and films. I've seen
There was a recent story about that.
It seems, after Ellen Degeneres' bold act,
there has been an influx of gay charas in American TV.
But like Jojo said, most of those gay charas aren't the focal point
or main chara of the show (as it was in Ellen) but rather
supporting charas, probably because people are more comfortable with
that arrangement than the gay issue being front¢er all the time.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/___ |__| |__|___| \ ___|
Arnold Kim
S.t.A.n.L.e.E <sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSO.4.10.101010...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu..
.
> On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, M Arnold wrote:
>
> > kuro...@hotmail.de.spam.com wrote:
> >
> > > openly gay character in American children's animation is still largely
> > > unheard of but they've been a routine part of anime for decades.
> >
> > I've seen several gay characters in American TV shows and films. I've
seen
>
> There was a recent story about that.
> It seems, after Ellen Degeneres' bold act,
> there has been an influx of gay charas in American TV.
> But like Jojo said, most of those gay charas aren't the focal point
> or main chara of the show (as it was in Ellen) but rather
> supporting charas, probably because people are more comfortable with
> that arrangement than the gay issue being front¢er all the time.
Will and Grace, anyone?
Arnold Kim
I mean, co-star has to count for something...
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
>
> Animeg3282 wrote in message
> <20010103224014...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
> >Sarah said:
> >
> >>
> >>The "get modern" technique never works where questions of morality are
> >>involved. Dates have little bearing on convictions and values.
> >>
> >
> >Maybe, but why are values never a serious call to morals, but usually just
> a
> >way to either say that they are better than you or to push someone else
> down.
>
> Morality depends on the individual. One man's laws are another's man's
> crimes. It may be vanity, it may be stupidity, it may be any number of
> things. It's certainly an fact of life, pleasant or not, and it is settled
> in that unpopular, uncomfortable question: Who decides what is right and
> wrong?
Yeah, Yomiuri Shimbun had a discussion about that too,
concerning the increasing youth violence in different countries.
(I think the article was about how to improve education,
using representatives from different countries' school systems.)
Some profs mentioned that one detrimental result of declining influence
of religion or widespread moral system (like in Japan)
is that moral values are becoming more and more subjective.
And so, among many violent youths following their own moral system,
what they're doing is not so bad, so they don't feel shame nor remorse
nor any compunction to listen to others whose standards they don't share.
Animeg3282
>Morality depends on the individual. One man's laws are another's man's
>crimes. It may be vanity, it may be stupidity, it may be any number of
>things. It's certainly an fact of life, pleasant or not, and it is settled
>in that unpopular, uncomfortable question: Who decides what is right and
>wrong?
Maybe, but other people's lives and rights need to be protected more than
ignorant folks need to be coddled. So, we have blacks allowed in the mainstream
of life, completely ignoring the yapping of the bigots saying that blacks
having power is immoral, that blacks and whites should not marry, etc.
>
>To the credit of bigots everywhere, I've met some who were highly
>intelligent and thoughtful in many cases, but were also devastatingly
>closeminded when being otherwise didn't suit them.
Tha's nice to hear. Tell that to the people they hurt.
>
>I agree. You will find, however, that individuality is difficult to attain,
>let alone *maintain*, for a species so dependant on being part of a defined
>social caste.
You don't have to be completely individual, you just have to think for 3
seconds. Just 3 seconds..thinking. Is that too much to ask?
Hana no Kaitou
Pledged to the Way of the Wimp
"Kero Kero!" Mimori, KeroKero Chime
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282 <---Fancy Lala Club! All better now!
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282/graduation.html <Graduation website.
Liz S.
> >I agree. You will find, however, that individuality is difficult to attain,
> >let alone *maintain*, for a species so dependant on being part of a defined
> >social caste.
>
> You don't have to be completely individual, you just have to think for 3
> seconds. Just 3 seconds..thinking. Is that too much to ask?
Well, think about what? I hold the view that there's nothing
intrinsically wrong with homosexuality because that's what I've been
told and that's the view that nearly everyone I have contact with holds.
I never expended much thought on the question, and my view is certainly
not something that I decided for myself. Maybe it's just luck that I've
wound up on the "right" side of the fence here.
(Yes, I know I'm being exceedingly relativistic, but I'm also playing
devil's advocate. I apologize.)
Liz
Liz S.
>>I asked a Japanese female friend
> >who's also seen Utena several days ago and told her that I've heard a lot
> >of people celebrating it (and other anime) as a pro-gay series... she
> >laughed, and said it has nothing to do with gay people or gay issues.
>
> And, of course, there's no way she could be wrong about that... I mean,
> she's Japanese, so she MUST know, right? Right...
Well...I don't believe that Utena can or should be defined as "pro-gay".
It has homosexual undertones, but mainly it's about human relationships,
identity, sexuality, and perception. It's not a show where there's a
moral at the end of the day that says "Ok kids, today we learned that
gay people are just fine and dandy."
In this context, I would agree that Utena has very little to do with gay
issues. Quite to the contrary, in Utena, homosexuality *isn't* an issue.
Nobody in the series seems to care very much about who is or isn't. Even
in the case of Shiori, I think that she dislikes Juri as a person and
not for her sexuality (after all, Shiori hated Juri even before she
found out about the locket).
Liz
Sarah Davis
M Arnold wrote in message <931mbn$13d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> "Sarah Davis" <sdavis...@mad-hatter.org> wrote:
>
>> Morality depends on the individual.
>
>Morality depends on a whole lot of things, but "The Individual" is
>probably one of the last on the list. "The Individual" just gets stuck
>making excuses for her/hisself after buying into something s/he heard
>someone else say somewhere.
I disagree. Most people eventually attempt to puzzle things about for
themselves. Their ideas may be composites of what many people think, but few
believe exactly what they have been told. The majority are intelligent
enough to question what others tell them eventually, even if they come to
the conclusion that these others were right.
>> One man's laws are another's man's crimes.
>
>One man alone can't create crimes or laws.
Did you misconstrue that purposefully? It's obvious that what I meant is
that what one man believes is right, another man may believe is wrong.
>> To the credit of bigots everywhere, I've met some who were highly
>> intelligent and thoughtful in many cases, but were also devastatingly
>> closeminded when being otherwise didn't suit them.
>
>Sounds like the way my Japanese coworkers (men especially) react when I
>mention something about a gay friend.
Such is a pity, but it's a fact of life.
>> individuality is difficult to attain,
>
>Uh-huh. Like what I said above.
Stop underquoting. You removed the portion where I wrote that humans are
dependant on their social caste, and this freedom of thought is rare.
>Would you believe me if I told you that I have spoken with more than a
>few Japanese adults who honestly--no exaggeration--believe that there
>are *no* gay people in Japan, and that they only exist in the west?
>"Wow, I guess there really are lots of gay people in America, huh Mike.
> There aren't any in Japan though. Did you know that?"
I would believe it.
Sarah
Andy00
Notice the person included "nothing about gay issues OR gay people."
This seems to suggest that the Japanese friend doesn't think Juri counts as a
gay person.
The original point being argued was that there are gay people in anime.
Sarah Davis
Animeg3282 wrote in message
<20010104194448...@ng-cp1.aol.com>...
>Sarah said:
>
>>Morality depends on the individual. One man's laws are another's man's
>>crimes. It may be vanity, it may be stupidity, it may be any number of
>>things. It's certainly an fact of life, pleasant or not, and it is settled
>>in that unpopular, uncomfortable question: Who decides what is right and
>>wrong?
>
>Maybe, but other people's lives and rights need to be protected more than
>ignorant folks need to be coddled.
Their lives, yes, but not their freedom to express their views. Everyone
ought to be afforded equality in that respect.
>So, we have blacks allowed in the mainstream
>of life, completely ignoring the yapping of the bigots saying that blacks
>having power is immoral, that blacks and whites should not marry, etc.
There's somebody out there who hates people of every possible sort. It's a
fact of life. I don't *like* hearing racism, sexism, and so forth spouted on
the radio, television, and elsewhere, but I know that I can speak my *own*
opinions to contradict the claims of others. If you don't like it, argue
against it; stand up for what matters to you.
>>I agree. You will find, however, that individuality is difficult to
attain,
>>let alone *maintain*, for a species so dependant on being part of a
defined
>>social caste.
>
>You don't have to be completely individual, you just have to think for 3
>seconds. Just 3 seconds..thinking. Is that too much to ask?
Of some people, yes. They aren't prepared to evaluate their views. It isn't
easy.
Sarah
Leaping Larry Jojo
anime...@aol.compelsia (Animeg3282) wrote:
> Sarah said:
>
> >Morality depends on the individual. One man's laws are another's
man's
> >crimes. It may be vanity, it may be stupidity, it may be any number
of
> >things. It's certainly an fact of life, pleasant or not, and it is
settled
> >in that unpopular, uncomfortable question: Who decides what is right
and
> >wrong?
>
> Maybe, but other people's lives and rights need to be protected more
than
> ignorant folks need to be coddled. So, we have blacks allowed in the
mainstream
> of life, completely ignoring the yapping of the bigots saying that
blacks
> having power is immoral, that blacks and whites should not marry, etc.
>
> >
> >To the credit of bigots everywhere, I've met some who were highly
> >intelligent and thoughtful in many cases, but were also devastatingly
> >closeminded when being otherwise didn't suit them.
>
> Tha's nice to hear. Tell that to the people they hurt.
>
Actually, there are a lot of bigots around that usually don't hurt
others. They have personal opinions, but overall, they simply avoid
what they don't like. I suspect many people here have relatives or
family members who may be bigots in some ways, but most of the time,
they keep their opinions to themselves and generally steer clear of
that which they are against. KKK guys are just an extreme case of
bigotry and racism, spreading and flaunting their hatred for all to see.
> >
> >I agree. You will find, however, that individuality is difficult to
attain,
> >let alone *maintain*, for a species so dependant on being part of a
defined
> >social caste.
>
> You don't have to be completely individual, you just have to think
for 3
> seconds. Just 3 seconds..thinking. Is that too much to ask?
Thinking takes a lot longer than 3 seconds. One could think about a
simple subject for hours and not find a definite answer simply because
even in the simplest things, dozens of factors must be considered.
Plus, people don't "change" automatically. If you were asked to just
forget everything that you believed in since you were a child,
everything you were raised on, forget all of that in a few minutes,
would you? I doubt it. The best thing to do is to raise the younger
generation properly. The older a person is, the harder it is for
him/her to change.
Jojo