Viz Video Girl Ai DVD news
David Watson
I got the news directly from a source at Viz, and it is posted here with
their permission.
Those of you who know me as an anime fan know how much I love Video Girl
Ai. And know very well how much I despise how Viz Video handled their
VHS releases of it, especially the adaptation of the script (I'm loathe
to call what they did to it a "translation"). I put up a petition
(http://www.PetitionOnline.com/airight/petition.html) addressed to Viz
and Pioneer Animation (who will still be manufacturing and distributing
the VGAi DVD) to get them to:
1. Redo the subtitle script so it will be as faithful to the original
Japanese dialogue as possible);
2. Proofread the subtitle script carefully and correct any errors
before the disc is authored (in other words, don't let what happened
to Please Save My Earth's subs happen to VGAi);
3. Use *no* hard subtitles for any part of the dialogue/song lyrics/
signs.
As I write this, it's at 524 signatures. That may not seem to be very
many, but a lot of the signators wrote very passionate comments to let
Viz and Pioneer know that they're dealing with serious fans of an
excellent anime series.
My source at Viz just let me know what's up now with the DVD release:
"They *have* read the petition and used its input to redo the subtitle
track. I don't know how thoroughly--I haven't seen the new subtitle
script."
"The subtitle track has been proofed for errors in the course of being
redone."
(And, for those who don't know, the original plans to release two three-
episode DVDs have been scotched, and all six eps will be on one disc,
scheduled for release in December.)
Now, this is excellent news. To those of you who signed the petition
and/or wrote Viz about this, rejoice, because this means that our
concerns have been taken seriously and action has been taken. But don't
go out and celebrate your face off just quite yet:
"The song lyrics are *still* hardsubbed. Apparently they didn't want to
pay the money to redo it--they've known about the petition but they said
it's too expensive."
(Now, this gets me. "Too expensive"? Then how can ADV Films afford to
softsub their lyrics now, and shouldn't that little cash cow known as
Pokemon have reduced the number of things that Viz find "too expensive"
quite significantly by now? And didn't they ever stop to think that
maybe we wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to get secondary softsubs
if they can't put down their own money for that?)
"So, that's what they told me. It sounds like the big problem that's still
there is the hardsubbed lyrics. They say the DVD has been completed on
Viz's end and is now in the hands of Pioneer who is waiting to release it."
Now, for those of you who don't fully know VGAi, there are several insert
songs in the OVAs (meaning that they're vocal songs that have been
inserted into the actual show). If it was just a matter of the OP and ED
sequences, then I wouldn't mind, since the DVD is almost guaranteed to
have totally textless versions of those as bonuses. However, these songs
(thus the subs of their lyrics) happen at very serious and beautiful
dramatic moments in the episodes; the kind you *want* to be able to see
without text, no matter how fitting the songs are (very) or how well the
lyrics were translated (beautifully; I wish that the person who did them
had done the scripts in the first place). People who collect Bandai's
DVDs (and several of ADV Films' most recent releases) now know and enjoy
secondary subtitles that can be switched off so much that hardsubbing
insert song lyrics on a DVD is now rightly seen as a bad thing to do.
To put it briefly: Two down, one to go. So let's go.
Contact the relevent people at Viz and Pioneer and tell them what you feel
about this. Snail mail and fax are much more likely to be taken seriously
than E-mail or phone calls. And I cannot stress enough that, no matter
how mad you might be about this situation, you should keep your letters to
them *POLITE*. Ranting, screaming and insulting will not help things here
one bit. In fact, it'd set things back more than anything. If you have
to go off, then go ahead and fill sheets of paper with venom until you
feel all better, then crumple it up, take a few deep breaths, drink some
ice water, and write the *real* letter.
Here's the man at Viz to contact. If you could please show some gratitude
to him for hearing us out and working to straighten out the sub script, it
could possibly convince him to take care of this:
Toshifumi Yoshida
Viz Communications, Inc.
P.O. Box 77010
San Francisco, CA 94107
Fax: (415) 546-7086
(No E-mail address listed.)
Ask Pioneer to please wait and release the DVD when Viz can be convinced
to can the hardsubs for the insert song lyrics:
Chad Kime
Pioneer Animation
P.O. Box 22782
Long Beach, CA 90801
Fax (from a 1998 web listing, so it may be out of service): (310) 952-2791
(If anyone can tell me their current fax number, please E-mail me.)
Customer E-mail: feed...@pioneeranimation.com
Thank you for your time.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (_Stretcher_ CD-R--sevcom.com)
Swetier Balzoff (aka Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
Do VGAi on DVD right!: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/airight/petition.html
Invid Fan
<aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> "The song lyrics are *still* hardsubbed. Apparently they didn't want to
> pay the money to redo it--they've known about the petition but they said
> it's too expensive."
>
> (Now, this gets me. "Too expensive"? Then how can ADV Films afford to
> softsub their lyrics now,
I'd assume because they have access to the "clean" prints of the shows,
instead of just dumping the dubbed print onto dvd with any hardsubs
that might be on it. This is especialy true if the dvd is mastered at
the same time as the first release of the vhs version.
> and shouldn't that little cash cow known as
> Pokemon have reduced the number of things that Viz find "too expensive"
> quite significantly by now?
I would assume that money from Pokemon would be used to make more
Pokemon, or taken out of the company as profit. Why spend it on a part
of the business that obviously now isn't as important as it once was?
VGA won't sell any toys.
> And didn't they ever stop to think that
> maybe we wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to get secondary softsubs
> if they can't put down their own money for that?)
>
They obviously have decided what price they can afford to sell the dvd
for and what the sales will probably be, did the math, and came up with
the budget for its creation. This is NOT something that'll be a big
hit. I expect the same kind of thing when they finaly release GREY, a
show that I like.
> "So, that's what they told me. It sounds like the big problem that's still
> there is the hardsubbed lyrics. They say the DVD has been completed on
> Viz's end and is now in the hands of Pioneer who is waiting to release it."
>
> Ask Pioneer to please wait and release the DVD when Viz can be convinced
> to can the hardsubs for the insert song lyrics:
>
If the dvd has already been mastered, it's too late. If this was KEY or
a similar show that would do well, spending the extra money to "fix"
this might make sense for them if lots of people bitched. As it is,
you'll have to either not buy the dvd or live with it. You may also
want to wait to see how big the song subs are.
--
Chris Mack "I'm Mr. Gone! A student of the mystic arts! Unfortinitly,
'Invid Fan' an untalented student, or I wouldn't have to keep
shooting fools like you!" Mr. Gone, 'The Maxx'
David Watson
> In article <9p4md2$a4h$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, David Watson
> <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> "The song lyrics are *still* hardsubbed. Apparently they didn't want to
>> pay the money to redo it--they've known about the petition but they said
>> it's too expensive."
>>
>> (Now, this gets me. "Too expensive"? Then how can ADV Films afford to
>> softsub their lyrics now,
>
> I'd assume because they have access to the "clean" prints of the shows,
> instead of just dumping the dubbed print onto dvd with any hardsubs
> that might be on it. This is especialy true if the dvd is mastered at
> the same time as the first release of the vhs version.
Viz should still have access to clean prints themself. After all, that's
what they used to make the VHS versions.
>> and shouldn't that little cash cow known as
>> Pokemon have reduced the number of things that Viz find "too expensive"
>> quite significantly by now?
> I would assume that money from Pokemon would be used to make more
> Pokemon, or taken out of the company as profit. Why spend it on a part
> of the business that obviously now isn't as important as it once was?
> VGA won't sell any toys.
But it will sell videos. Does Ranma sell any toys?
>> And didn't they ever stop to think that
>> maybe we wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to get secondary softsubs
>> if they can't put down their own money for that?)
> They obviously have decided what price they can afford to sell the dvd
> for and what the sales will probably be, did the math, and came up with
> the budget for its creation. This is NOT something that'll be a big
> hit. I expect the same kind of thing when they finaly release GREY, a
> show that I like.
If the price gets cranked up from, say, $29.99 to $32.99, to allow that, i
don't think too many people are going to bitch.
>> Ask Pioneer to please wait and release the DVD when Viz can be convinced
>> to can the hardsubs for the insert song lyrics:
> If the dvd has already been mastered, it's too late.
To quote the great philosopher Yogi Berra, it ain't over till it's over.
> If this was KEY or
> a similar show that would do well, spending the extra money to "fix"
> this might make sense for them if lots of people bitched.
Methinks VGAi will sell much better than any of the individual discs of
Key the Metal Idol did. And that's not a slight towards Key; I love it.
> As it is, you'll have to either not buy the dvd or live with it.
I believe there's still time for a turnaround on that, so the fight
continues.
> You may also want to wait to see how big the song subs are.
It doesn't matter how big they are. If they're right in the middle of the
show and you can't shut 'em off, they're too big, period.
Invid Fan
<aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> Invid Fan (in...@localnet.com) writes:
> > In article <9p4md2$a4h$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, David Watson
> > <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >> "The song lyrics are *still* hardsubbed. Apparently they didn't want to
> >> pay the money to redo it--they've known about the petition but they said
> >> it's too expensive."
> >>
> >> (Now, this gets me. "Too expensive"? Then how can ADV Films afford to
> >> softsub their lyrics now,
> >
> > I'd assume because they have access to the "clean" prints of the shows,
> > instead of just dumping the dubbed print onto dvd with any hardsubs
> > that might be on it. This is especialy true if the dvd is mastered at
> > the same time as the first release of the vhs version.
>
> Viz should still have access to clean prints themself. After all, that's
> what they used to make the VHS versions.
>
Did the dub vhs have hard subs?
> >> and shouldn't that little cash cow known as
> >> Pokemon have reduced the number of things that Viz find "too expensive"
> >> quite significantly by now?
> > I would assume that money from Pokemon would be used to make more
> > Pokemon, or taken out of the company as profit. Why spend it on a part
> > of the business that obviously now isn't as important as it once was?
> > VGA won't sell any toys.
>
> But it will sell videos. Does Ranma sell any toys?
>
A few video games, the manga, plus more videos. Ranma is a Franchise,
to Viz what Star Trek is to Paramount. VGA is a oneshot (now that it's
all on one dvd) that will make, with luck, as small profit.
> >> And didn't they ever stop to think that
> >> maybe we wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to get secondary softsubs
> >> if they can't put down their own money for that?)
> > They obviously have decided what price they can afford to sell the dvd
> > for and what the sales will probably be, did the math, and came up with
> > the budget for its creation. This is NOT something that'll be a big
> > hit. I expect the same kind of thing when they finaly release GREY, a
> > show that I like.
>
> If the price gets cranked up from, say, $29.99 to $32.99, to allow that, i
> don't think too many people are going to bitch.
>
Retailers might, who would have to pay more to stock the dvds. If Viz
was planning to go the AnimEigo route and stress direct online sales
the sticker price wouldn't be as much of an issue.
> >> Ask Pioneer to please wait and release the DVD when Viz can be convinced
> >> to can the hardsubs for the insert song lyrics:
> > If the dvd has already been mastered, it's too late.
>
> To quote the great philosopher Yogi Berra, it ain't over till it's over.
>
It's over, as I just heard an overweight woman sing :)
> > If this was KEY or
> > a similar show that would do well, spending the extra money to "fix"
> > this might make sense for them if lots of people bitched.
>
> Methinks VGAi will sell much better than any of the individual discs of
> Key the Metal Idol did. And that's not a slight towards Key; I love it.
>
What were the vhs sales?
> > As it is, you'll have to either not buy the dvd or live with it.
>
> I believe there's still time for a turnaround on that, so the fight
> continues.
>
Go for it. Just don't expect victory.
> > You may also want to wait to see how big the song subs are.
>
> It doesn't matter how big they are. If they're right in the middle of the
> show and you can't shut 'em off, they're too big, period.
Do you also object when there's Japanese subtitles of a song?
Wayne C. Morris
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> Invid Fan (in...@localnet.com) writes:
> > In article <9p4md2$a4h$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, David Watson
> > <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >> "The song lyrics are *still* hardsubbed. Apparently they didn't want to
> >> pay the money to redo it--they've known about the petition but they said
> >> it's too expensive."
> >>
> >> (Now, this gets me. "Too expensive"? Then how can ADV Films afford to
> >> softsub their lyrics now,
> >
> > I'd assume because they have access to the "clean" prints of the shows,
> > instead of just dumping the dubbed print onto dvd with any hardsubs
> > that might be on it. This is especialy true if the dvd is mastered at
> > the same time as the first release of the vhs version.
>
> Viz should still have access to clean prints themself. After all, that's
> what they used to make the VHS versions.
There'd also be the work of re-editing the whole thing: adding the song
lyrics to the subtitle track, creating a second "songs only" subtitle
track for dub-watchers, retiming the subtitles, resyncing both audio
tracks with the "new" video, etc. Even if they only re-edited the
scenes with songs, it'd still be a considerable amount of work.
David Watson
> There'd also be the work of re-editing the whole thing: adding the song
> lyrics to the subtitle track, creating a second "songs only" subtitle
> track for dub-watchers, retiming the subtitles, resyncing both audio
> tracks with the "new" video, etc. Even if they only re-edited the
> scenes with songs, it'd still be a considerable amount of work.
I'm willing to wait longer (and pay a little more) for it, and I'm sure
quite a few other people are.
David Watson
> In article <9p5u6u$74t$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, David Watson
> <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> Viz should still have access to clean prints themself. After all, that's
>> what they used to make the VHS versions.
> Did the dub vhs have hard subs?
Yes, it did. But they did have to use actual, honest-to-Belldandy 100%
clean masters to make that dub VHS in the first place. So why not use the
same one to make the DVD?
>> > VGA won't sell any toys.
>> But it will sell videos. Does Ranma sell any toys?
> A few video games,
Didn't those video games bomb like a mother here?
> the manga,
VGAi is selling manga, too. Viz is running that in Animerica Extra,
remember?
> plus more videos. Ranma is a Franchise,
> to Viz what Star Trek is to Paramount. VGA is a oneshot (now that it's
> all on one dvd) that will make, with luck, as small profit.
And with a bit more care, make *more* profit.
>> If the price gets cranked up from, say, $29.99 to $32.99, to allow that, i
>> don't think too many people are going to bitch.
> Retailers might, who would have to pay more to stock the dvds. If Viz
> was planning to go the AnimEigo route and stress direct online sales
> the sticker price wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Three dollars more per unit for something they *know* will sell,
especially packed with fan-friendly features like softsubbed song lyrics
will likely be considered a bargain. I know I would.
>> To quote the great philosopher Yogi Berra, it ain't over till it's over.
> It's over, as I just heard an overweight woman sing :)
And the potbellied gut is screaming at her to shut up, because it's not
over.
>> > If this was KEY or
>> > a similar show that would do well, spending the extra money to "fix"
>> > this might make sense for them if lots of people bitched.
>> Methinks VGAi will sell much better than any of the individual discs of
>> Key the Metal Idol did. And that's not a slight towards Key; I love it.
> What were the vhs sales?
Of VGAi? Most likely cut something fierce after the word got out about
just what a horrid job Viz did on them.
>> > As it is, you'll have to either not buy the dvd or live with it.
>> I believe there's still time for a turnaround on that, so the fight
>> continues.
> Go for it. Just don't expect victory.
One never knows if one never dares. Others have told me to give up on
getting Viz to retool the sub script for the DVD. They just got a big
message about sex and travel.
>> It doesn't matter how big they are. If they're right in the middle of the
>> show and you can't shut 'em off, they're too big, period.
> Do you also object when there's Japanese subtitles of a song?
It would suck if they were in the middle of the show, but that sort of
thing pretty much always happens just in OP and ED sequences, so it's
nowhere near as big an issue as the North American company sticking in
hardsubs in the middle of the shows themselves.
Wayne C. Morris
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> Invid Fan (in...@localnet.com) writes:
> > In article <9p5u6u$74t$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, David Watson
> > <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >> Viz should still have access to clean prints themself. After all, that's
> >> what they used to make the VHS versions.
> > Did the dub vhs have hard subs?
>
> Yes, it did. But they did have to use actual, honest-to-Belldandy 100%
> clean masters to make that dub VHS in the first place. So why not use the
> same one to make the DVD?
Yes, they would've needed clean masters to start with, but did they KEEP
those masters? And if they did still have those masters, would using
them require everything to be resynced and retimed from scratch?
Wayne C. Morris
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> "Wayne C. Morris" (wayne....@this.is.invalid) writes:
> > There'd also be the work of re-editing the whole thing: adding the song
> > lyrics to the subtitle track, creating a second "songs only" subtitle
> > track for dub-watchers, retiming the subtitles, resyncing both audio
> > tracks with the "new" video, etc. Even if they only re-edited the
> > scenes with songs, it'd still be a considerable amount of work.
>
> I'm willing to wait longer (and pay a little more) for it, and I'm sure
> quite a few other people are.
Yeah, the hard-core fans would be willing to pay more for it, but
they're just a small minority of the customer base. Most of the
customers (especially the dub-watchers) don't really care whether the
songs are hard-subbed or soft-subbed, and many casual shoppers would be
lost if the price were raised by a few dollars.
David Watson
> In article <9p7tut$4ib$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
>> I'm willing to wait longer (and pay a little more) for it, and I'm sure
>> quite a few other people are.
> Yeah, the hard-core fans would be willing to pay more for it, but
> they're just a small minority of the customer base. Most of the
> customers (especially the dub-watchers) don't really care whether the
> songs are hard-subbed or soft-subbed, and many casual shoppers would be
> lost if the price were raised by a few dollars.
A: If the dubbies were to hear just how badly mutilated the dub script of
VGAi was (esp. if they were to turn on the retooled subs), that'd cure
them of dubs forever. Talk about how-they-lied-to-you-o-vision. Since
most sub fans are now buying DVD (and people like me got the word out
about the dub script after the VHD was released), I don't think very many
fans will be buying this for the dub.
B: VGAi seems to be one of those series where almost *all* the fans are
hardcore. Lots of people love it to death, quite a few people hate it and
there's not very many in between who just go "ehh."
The fight continues.
David Watson
A: Seeing how companies like Bandai have used totally clean masters to
re-release older titles of theirs on DVD, I presume that Viz would still
have theirs for VGAi. The only reasons to use dub VHS masters for DVD
releases is pure unmitigated moneygrubbing cheapness (*cough*CPM*hack*Media
Blasters*gob).
B: Using the original masters might require that, but they probably had
to do all that to work in the retooled script anyway, so why not kill two
birds with one stone? And maybe they didn't have to resynch and retime,
and probably even used the original timed sub VHS script as a guide.
However, unless I can find this out directly from somebody at Viz, all I
can do is speculate.
Wayne C. Morris
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> A: If the dubbies were to hear just how badly mutilated the dub script of
> VGAi was (esp. if they were to turn on the retooled subs), that'd cure
> them of dubs forever. Talk about how-they-lied-to-you-o-vision.
What makes you think dub viewers give a damn about the accuracy of the
translation? MOST people, when they watch a video, care about only one
thing: "Is it entertaining?" Why else do you think so many people are
buying the dub-only "Robotech" on DVD?
> Since most sub fans are now buying DVD (and people like me got the
> word out about the dub script after the VHD was released), I don't
> think very many fans will be buying this for the dub.
Oh, there'll be PLENTY of people buying it for the dub. They're the
same people who used to buy dubbed tapes, the people who outnumber sub
fans 10 to 1. Some of them *might* decide to check out the subbed
version just because it's on the same disc, and notice how different the
dialog is, but it won't change their reasons for watched dubs.
> B: VGAi seems to be one of those series where almost *all* the fans are
> hardcore. Lots of people love it to death, quite a few people hate it and
> there's not very many in between who just go "ehh."
Strong opinions regarding one show do not equate to strong opinions
regarding translation accuracy. I'm sure you could find many
self-professed "hardcore otaku" who hate VGAi, and many others who love
VGAi while claiming they're not anime fans.
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
>> A: If the dubbies were to hear just how badly mutilated the dub script of
>> VGAi was (esp. if they were to turn on the retooled subs), that'd cure
>> them of dubs forever. Talk about how-they-lied-to-you-o-vision.
> What makes you think dub viewers give a damn about the accuracy of the
> translation?
Considering how long it was only available fansubbed, you'll be very
surprised.
> MOST people, when they watch a video, care about only one
> thing: "Is it entertaining?"
I care about that first and foremost. If anime didn't entertain me, I
wouldn't have put so much time, money and energy into it. But it's hard
to be entertained when the dialogue in the scene where Ai walks Moemi home
is so obviously (and badly) rewritten, see?
> Why else do you think so many people are buying the dub-only "Robotech"
> on DVD?
Because (a) it's existed like that for too long (if I liked the series
that went into Robotech, I'd be sticking it out for AnimEigo's Macross
set), so many, many more people are used to it than to VGAi's dub, and (b)
it's also cheap as dirt.
> Oh, there'll be PLENTY of people buying it for the dub. They're the
> same people who used to buy dubbed tapes, the people who outnumber sub
> fans 10 to 1. Some of them *might* decide to check out the subbed
> version just because it's on the same disc, and notice how different the
> dialog is, but it won't change their reasons for watched dubs.
And who's to say that some of those people might decide that they can hear
more obvious conviction in the original Japanese dialogue than in the dub
rush job? And have you actually *listened to* the VGAi dub? The acting
was actually pretty good, but the blatantly Trished script made me want to
smoke crystal meth and smash things up. If there is one DVD out there
that will kill dub fanship in a lot of people, VGAi will be it.
>> B: VGAi seems to be one of those series where almost *all* the fans are
>> hardcore. Lots of people love it to death, quite a few people hate it and
>> there's not very many in between who just go "ehh."
> Strong opinions regarding one show do not equate to strong opinions
> regarding translation accuracy.
Read the comments left by people in my petition (see .sig for address).
There's a lot of strong opinions about translation accuracy in there.
> I'm sure you could find many
> self-professed "hardcore otaku" who hate VGAi, and many others who love
> VGAi while claiming they're not anime fans.
Thank you for repeating what I already said.