Japanese swords
GoldenUsagi
the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as in
various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of swords, like
katana and bokken?
GoldenUsagi
----
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The Skeleton Man
"GoldenUsagi" <mina...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021031164840...@mb-fk.aol.com...
There must always be a Murasame and/or a Masamune!
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I found an authentic Murasame?
elsie
Kenshin. You'll see all kinds there.
But a bokken is a wooden sword used in kendo practice after real swords were
outlawed. As for the katana, it's a long, slightly curved sword with a
single edge, smaller than a broadsword but longer than a saber.
laurie
Fish Eye no Miko
news:s4iw9.5986$V15.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "GoldenUsagi" <mina...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Since we just had the "Best Swordsmen in Anime" thread, I was
> > wondering about the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned
> > there, as well as in various anime and manga. What's the difference
> > between kinds of swords, like katana and bokken?
>
> If you're curious about different kinds of swords, then check out Rurouni
> Kenshin. You'll see all kinds there.
I wouldn't use RK as a guide for real Japanese swords. A lot of the
weaponry is rather fanciful, and some of it is physically impossible.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"Early to bed, early to rise, drive through the drive-thru and get me some
fries."
-The Narrator, during an eyecatch for _Cartoon Planet_.
sanjian
about
> the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as in
> various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of swords,
like
> katana and bokken?
-Bokken are the wooden practice swords that are shaped like a katana.
-Katana are the staple of the Bushi class. Their curvature is derived from
a segment of a circle who's radius is the arm of the swordsman. This allows
the swordsman to draw the sword with a minimum of resistance, thus allowing
for a faster blade speed when cutting during many iado techniques.
-Nodachi are the longer, heavier versions of katana.
-Wakazashi are the smaller, lighter version of katana (and, by extension,
faster).
-Tanto are small daggers that a samurai would keep in his belt.
The katana, wakazashi, and tanto were all carried by most samurai. I've
noticed that in anime, swordsmen tend only to carry one sword, which is a
bit innacurate.
Also, during the shogunate, the katana could only be carried by the bushi
class. Merchants often carried wakazashi for defence.
Disruptor
GoldenUsagi wrote:
> Since we just had the "Best Swordsmen in Anime" thread, I was wondering about
> the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as in
> various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of swords, like
> katana and bokken?
Katana is a single edged, slightly curved sword
Bokken is a wooden katana
Waishi<sp?> is a small katana and usually paired with the Katana. There is also
a wooden version of this sword as well.
Ninja-to is smaller than a katana and can be hidden inside clothes<used by ninja>
Sai is a blunt edged dagger that has two prongs and is usally used to break
swords.
There is also a Japanese broadsword that looks like a fat cutlass.
Personally, I perfer western style swords.
Robert Oliver
@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, lcub...@earthlink.net
says...
It approximates the weight, balance and feel of a
katana. Miyamoto Mushashi killed a number of opponents
in duels, using a bokken while his opponent(s) used
a katana.
In Kendo a shinai is used, the shinai being
made of bamboo.
Other swords are:
Katana - approx. 40 in. long with a curved blade,
worn in the obi edge up.
Wakizashi - approx. 28-30 in. Essentially a shorter
katana.
A matched katana and wakizashi set are referred to as
a daisho.
Tachi - Similar to the katana. A little longer with slightly
longer handle and slightly shorter blade. Worn edge
down on the outside of armor.
No-Dachi - approx 6 feet long. Similar in appearance
and proportion to a katana. This is
considered a polearm rather than a sword.
Naginata - A polearm approx. 7-8 feet in length. Has a
heavy curved blade attached to a wooden shaft.
The name means "mowing down sword".
Nagamaki - A polearm with a katana like blade fitted to
a shaft shorter than that of th naginata (about
4 feet.) The name means "long wrapping" - probably
in reference to the wrapping on the shaft.
Kanabo - Essentially a club. Made of iron or wood and iron.
About 5 feet long. Watch the opening sequence of
Yu Yu Hakusho and you'll see Yurameshi carrying one.
I could spend the rest of the night on this list.
If you have a library handy I'd suggest looking for
almost any book by Stephen R. Turnbull or more
specifically for "Arms and Armor of the Samurai: The
History of Weaponry in Ancient Japan."
--
In war as in love, we must
achieve contact to triumph.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Nargun
> Since we just had the "Best Swordsmen in Anime" thread, I was wondering about
> the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as in
> various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of swords, like
> katana and bokken?
A katana is a single-edged bastard sword [can be swung either one or two
handed] with a gently-curved blade. It's rather short for a bastard sword,
about a metre long. A wakizashi is a single-handed version of a katana,
rather shorter.
Both of these swords were worn at the waist by samurai-class men;
lower-class individuals were only permitted to wear a single sword.
A nodachi is a full two-handed sword, like a katana but *much* longer.
It's too long to wear at the waist, so it was worn in a scabbard on the
back.
All these are nihontou, lit, japanese swords. They're all single-edged and
have curved blades; they've also got some interesting metalurgy which
causes a wavy line of frosted-looking metal to run above and along the
sharpened edge, to about a centimetre inside. It's sorta distinctive.
A naginata is a sort of a cross between a sword and a spear, having a
rather short swordblade, like a wakizashi, on the end of a rather long
pole; this is the traditional weapon of samurai-class women.
A bokken is literally a wooden sword, used in theory primarilly for
practice, although they are a lot more effective in the actual "hurting
people" stakes than you might think. The more normal japanese word is
"bokutou", literally "wooden katana".
A shinai is a bamboo device that vaguely resembles a katana in appearence
but is soft and flexible. It is used in kendou bouts, as it is a lot safer
than live steel or even a bokken.
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
"You have plundered this dead man's property, you have all
the toys you need to keep you alive; now may we move on?"
- Balthamos, _The Amber Spyglass_
The Eternal Lost Lurker (I have the HORNY!)
about
> the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as in
> various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of swords,
like
> katana and bokken?
Katana: The sword nominally wielded by samurai. The most famous type of
Japanese sword. The katana blade is usually roughly a meter long, and forged
with an intricate process of folding the metal many, many times, then
tempering the edge with clay. The traditional katana can hold an incredibly
sharp edge, and is designed to be rigid enough to defend against any blow,
yet flexible enough to not break when used to parry a strong blow. A katana
is curved slightly, and usually has a very narrow tsuba (guard) at the hilt.
The grip will usually be sharkskin, rayskin, or some similar leather
wrapping, and often has a cord wrap.
Wakizashi: The shortsword worn in tandem with the katana. The craftmanship
of a wakizashi is basically identical to the katana, except the blade is
about half a meter.
Tanto: This dagger is the third element of this set of swords. Its most
infamous use is the act of seppuku, or ritual suicide.
Bokken: This is a wooden training sword, also called a bokuto. Used for
practice in Kendou.
There are many, many other types of Japanese swords, but the best way to
learn more about them is to use the Web.
--
[Chiyo] "Ah! This is my cute vibrator!"
[Osaka] "Ah! That's a cute vibrator!"
[Sakaki] "....cute vibrator..."
* The Eternal Lost Lurker
http://www.lurkerdrome.com
Dolphin males have a prehensile penis.
They can wrap it around objects,
and carry them as such.
The Skeleton Man
"Robert Oliver" <rbol...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.182ba8395...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
Or pick up a handy copy of the Playsation game Bushido Blade and have fun
while learning!
--
Skeleton Man
Is it time I played that game again?
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Nargun" <lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.102110...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au...
> On 31 Oct 2002, GoldenUsagi wrote:
>
> A nodachi is a full two-handed sword, like a katana but *much* longer.
> It's too long to wear at the waist, so it was worn in a scabbard on the
> back.
Hey, you sound like you know what you're talking about.
What is a kodachi?
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>-Bokken are the wooden practice swords that are shaped like a katana.
Sometimes also called bokutou (just using the "katana" character
instead of the "ken" character).
>-Katana are the staple of the Bushi class. Their curvature is derived from
>a segment of a circle who's radius is the arm of the swordsman. This allows
>the swordsman to draw the sword with a minimum of resistance, thus allowing
>for a faster blade speed when cutting during many iado techniques.
>-Nodachi are the longer, heavier versions of katana.
>-Wakazashi are the smaller, lighter version of katana (and, by extension,
>faster).
That's "wakizashi" (˜e?·).
There are also a number of general terms for sword like tsurugi (Υ),
ken (Œ•), touken (“?Œ•), nihontou (“ú–{“?), tou (“?), etc.
shinai ’|“? is a common term for a bamboo sword, and tachi ‘¾“? is a
long sword.
Then there's some others in EDICT, but I don't know how common they
are -- like "dosu" (a yakuza sword), guntou (ŒR“?) which is a saber,
mi (?g) the same word for "body", etc.
I'm not really sure of the specifics of use for all of these words,
though.
-Chris
Robert Oliver
rbol...@ix.netcom.com says...
> In article <s4iw9.5986$V15.607485
> @newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, lcub...@earthlink.net
> says...
> >
> > "GoldenUsagi" <mina...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20021031164840...@mb-fk.aol.com...
> > > Since we just had the "Best Swordsmen in Anime" thread, I was wondering
> > about
>
<snip>
> specifically for "Arms and Armor of the Samurai: The
> History of Weaponry in Ancient Japan."
This book is by I. Bottomley and A.P. Hopson. My apologies.
Chris Mattern
"Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality" <ihat...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:zbmw9.121056$mxk1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Oh, you mean the *sword*...:-)
A kodachi is a japanese-style short sword, somewhat longer than a
wakizashi, but shorter than a katana.
Chris Mattern
RICMRUNNER
Iaito - sword which is basically a katana but used for the practice of Iaido
which is the modern form of iaijutsu/battojutsu. Usually made of aluminum
alloy and cannot hold an edge.
Shinken - a real sword, made of carbon steel. it's a katana but the term
asserts the fact that the sword has a live blade.
Someone said that a bokuto approximates the weight and size/length of a katana.
I would agree on size/length, but definitely not weight. Based on my limited
experience, an iaito weighs twice as much as bokuto and shinken weighs at least
twice as much as iaito. at least that's how it feels when you're actually
trying to use it. also shinai is about half weight of bokken.
Manbow Papa
"sanjian" <san...@widomaker.com> wrote in message
news:CBjw9.75968$vq2.2...@news1.east.cox.net...
> "GoldenUsagi" <mina...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20021031164840...@mb-fk.aol.com...
> > Since we just had the "Best Swordsmen in Anime" thread, I was wondering
> about
> > the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as in
> > various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of swords,
> like
> > katana and bokken?
>
> -Bokken are the wooden practice swords that are shaped like a katana.
> -Katana are the staple of the Bushi class. Their curvature is derived from
> a segment of a circle who's radius is the arm of the swordsman. This allows
> the swordsman to draw the sword with a minimum of resistance, thus allowing
> for a faster blade speed when cutting during many iado techniques.
Before the Heian era (9th century), Japanese swords had
straight blade.
NHK BS-HighVision aired a special TV program for Japanese
sword this summer. So, I think I can tell some more details about
Japanese sword, if I remember correctly.
Bests of all type of katana were made in the Kamakura era
(1185-1333) when many powerful social groups were fighting
to get the control over Japan. They needed a good weapon.
After 16th century when pistols/riffles were brought into Japan,
swords were outclassed as a weapon. But a katana is one of
"sanshu no jingi" (three god/sacred crafts in Shinto), it remained
as a symbol of bushi (swordman). In the Edo era (1603-1867),
kendo (swordmanship with philosophy and descipline) was emerged
among citizens (see Rurouni Kenshin). So, shinai (made from banboo)
and bokutou (made from wood) were invented. Still, skillful swordmen
needed shinken (real/steel katana).
However, katana's manufacturing process was never written but
was carried verbally through many generations of craftsmem.
And, its quality was never really recovered in the Edo era.
In some records of 16th century, missionaries from Netherland
wrote in a surprise like that a swordman cut a man into two pieces
with his long heavy razersharp sword just in a move. In the 20th
century, the secret of sharpness and toughness of katana was
eventually unvailed. Soft steel is used for the body of katana
and pure hard steel is used for the blade. The blade is consisted of
thousands of thin ribbon layer of steel. When several layers get
cracked, many other layers will still stay undamaged. And, the soft
body effectively absorb the shock of collision.
The steel used for the blade is called "tama hagane" (jewelry
steel). Tama hagane is 99% pure iron, which any large steel
manufacturer in the world cannot produce, and only made by
traditional "tatara" process which you can see in "Mononoke Hime".
> -Nodachi are the longer, heavier versions of katana.
More general term for a log heavy Japanese sword is
"tachi" which is delived from a verb "tatsu" (cut).
> -Wakazashi are the smaller, lighter version of katana (and, by extension,
> faster).
Waki-zashi.
--
/ Ishikawa Kazuo /
(Remove NoS for E-mailing)
Chris Kern
Morality" <ihat...@rogers.com> posted the following:
A grove of trees?
Probably a smaller sword since it sounds like "ko" (small) + "tachi"
(the aforemetioned "fat sword"), although that seems like a strange
combination of elements. Sort of like calling something a "short long
sword".
-Chris
Chris Kuan
> All these are nihontou, lit, japanese swords. They're all single-edged and
> have curved blades; they've also got some interesting metalurgy which
> causes a wavy line of frosted-looking metal to run above and along the
> sharpened edge, to about a centimetre inside. It's sorta distinctive.
It's so distinctive that souvenirs now imitate it; I was in Laox the
other day and saw a household cleaver with that pattern. I think it
had been formed by polishing the blade differently in the two
contrasting areas.
--
Chris
sanjian
news:apt0lc$2dco$1...@news.parkcity.ne.jp...
>
> "sanjian" <san...@widomaker.com> wrote in message
> news:CBjw9.75968$vq2.2...@news1.east.cox.net...
> > "GoldenUsagi" <mina...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20021031164840...@mb-fk.aol.com...
> > > Since we just had the "Best Swordsmen in Anime" thread, I was
wondering
> > about
> > > the different kinds of swords that I heard mentioned there, as well as
in
> > > various anime and manga. What's the difference between kinds of
swords,
> > like
> > > katana and bokken?
> >
> > -Bokken are the wooden practice swords that are shaped like a katana.
> > -Katana are the staple of the Bushi class. Their curvature is derived
from
> > a segment of a circle who's radius is the arm of the swordsman. This
allows
> > the swordsman to draw the sword with a minimum of resistance, thus
allowing
> > for a faster blade speed when cutting during many iado techniques.
>
> Before the Heian era (9th century), Japanese swords had
> straight blade.
And, even before that, spears were the weapons of choice for the samurai.
Still seen in the naginata.
> NHK BS-HighVision aired a special TV program for Japanese
> sword this summer. So, I think I can tell some more details about
> Japanese sword, if I remember correctly.
>
> Bests of all type of katana were made in the Kamakura era
> (1185-1333) when many powerful social groups were fighting
> to get the control over Japan. They needed a good weapon.
IIRC, that was the era of the welded katana. I was under the understanding
that those were considered inferior to the "modern" version of variable
tempering.
> After 16th century when pistols/riffles were brought into Japan,
> swords were outclassed as a weapon. But a katana is one of
> "sanshu no jingi" (three god/sacred crafts in Shinto), it remained
> as a symbol of bushi (swordman). In the Edo era (1603-1867),
> kendo (swordmanship with philosophy and descipline) was emerged
> among citizens (see Rurouni Kenshin). So, shinai (made from banboo)
> and bokutou (made from wood) were invented. Still, skillful swordmen
> needed shinken (real/steel katana).
>
> However, katana's manufacturing process was never written but
> was carried verbally through many generations of craftsmem.
> And, its quality was never really recovered in the Edo era.
>
> In some records of 16th century, missionaries from Netherland
> wrote in a surprise like that a swordman cut a man into two pieces
> with his long heavy razersharp sword just in a move. In the 20th
> century, the secret of sharpness and toughness of katana was
> eventually unvailed. Soft steel is used for the body of katana
> and pure hard steel is used for the blade. The blade is consisted of
> thousands of thin ribbon layer of steel. When several layers get
> cracked, many other layers will still stay undamaged. And, the soft
> body effectively absorb the shock of collision.
>
> The steel used for the blade is called "tama hagane" (jewelry
> steel). Tama hagane is 99% pure iron, which any large steel
> manufacturer in the world cannot produce, and only made by
> traditional "tatara" process which you can see in "Mononoke Hime".
It's not so much that each part is made of a different steel, it's that the
same steel is used throughout, but the tempering gives different properties
to different parts of the sword. For the most part, it has similar
properties to spring steel, but the blade itself is very hard. You'll
notice the pattern on the blade where the clay was scraped off, allowing one
part to be insulated from the heat, and the other to be tempered.
> > -Nodachi are the longer, heavier versions of katana.
>
> More general term for a log heavy Japanese sword is
> "tachi" which is delived from a verb "tatsu" (cut).
>
> > -Wakazashi are the smaller, lighter version of katana (and, by
extension,
> > faster).
>
> Waki-zashi.
Bah! I can't even spell in my own language, what makes you think I can
spell in japanese?
Manbow Papa
> "Manbow Papa" <kis...@NoSparkcity.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:apt0lc$2dco$1...@news.parkcity.ne.jp...
> > The steel used for the blade is called "tama hagane" (jewelry
> > steel). Tama hagane is 99% pure iron, which any large steel
> > manufacturer in the world cannot produce, and only made by
> > traditional "tatara" process which you can see in "Mononoke Hime".
>
> It's not so much that each part is made of a different steel, it's that the
> same steel is used throughout, but the tempering gives different properties
> to different parts of the sword. For the most part, it has similar
> properties to spring steel, but the blade itself is very hard. You'll
> notice the pattern on the blade where the clay was scraped off, allowing one
> part to be insulated from the heat, and the other to be tempered.
Correct.
By the way, Boston Museum of Fine Art has a good collection
of katana. You can also find beautiful parts and accesorries of
katana in either the museum and The British Museum in London.
Ryo Saeba
When not in armor, the samurai of the Tokugawa (Edo) period
(1600-1867) customarily wore two single-edged, slightly curved swords,
one long and one short, edge side up, in their scabbards inserted
through the sash at his waist. Wearing both swords edge side up
facilated iaijutsu, or the art of drawing and striking with a blade,
fast and quickly.
When in armor, however, the samurai of the Tokugawa and earlier
periods wore the long sword, edge side down, in its scabbard slung
from his waist. He wore the short sword, edge side up, in its scabbard
inserted through the sash at his waist.
The long sword was called katana; the short sword was called
wakizashi. Some samurai, however, substituted for the short sword, or
wakizashi, a knife with a hilt, known as tantou, or a knife without a
hilt, known as aikuchi.
The long sword and the short sword were also known as daitou (lit.,
long sword, big sword) and shoutou (lit., short sword, small sword),
respectively. The pair of swords worn by the samurai were known as
daishou (dai + shou; dai from daitou, shou from shoutou).
In the informed view of most arms and armor experts - at least all the
ones that I have read - blades produced for Japanese edged weapons
(katana, tachi, Nihontou, daitou, shoutou, tantou, aikuchi, yari,
naginata, nagamaki, kusarigama, etc.) are the finest that the world
has ever seen.
Below are links to two highly respected international authorities on
arms and armor, George Cameron Stone and Frederick Wilkinson,
respectively, who, I recall reading, have held the supremacy of the
finest Japanese blades over all others:
http://www.arms-and-armor.com/index7.html
http://www.greenhillbooks.com/gbn/118/authors_credentials.html
I am 100 percent certain about George Cameron Stone's stance about
Japanese blades; you can read it yourself in his classic book, cited
in the first link above, about arms and armor of the world.
It has been years since I read a book on world weaponry by a British
authority named Wilkinson; I am not absolutely certain that the
Wilkinson in question is Frederick Wilkinson.
But I am dead certain that the Wilkinson in question has written, in
this particular book, that Japanese bladesmiths produced the greatest
blades in history.
There exists a comprehensive Italian reference book - I cannot recall
its title - on the world's arms and armor which also states that
Japanese bladesmiths forged the greatest blades ever made.
Finally, below is a quote which I just found through Google:
Quote
=======================================================
Nihon To, Japanese swords, are arguably the finest edged weapons and
cutting instruments ever made. The refinement of forging technology
and art by some 20,000 swordsmiths over a 1200 year period was an
awesome collective achievement. Yet the brilliance that distinguished
the works of a very small number of smiths were largely a matter of
individual discovery and mastery, since methods and techniques were
carefully guarded from competitors.
=======================================================
Source: http://www.e-malecollector.com/pubs/apr2001.pdf
Ryo Saeba
When not in armor, the samurai of the Tokugawa (Edo) period
(1600-1867) customarily wore two single-edged, slightly curved swords,
one long and one short, edge side up, in their scabbards inserted
through the sash at his waist. Wearing both swords edge side up
facilitated iaijutsu, or the art of drawing and striking with a blade,
fast and quickly.
http://www.arms-and-armor.com/index7.html
http://www.greenhillbooks.com/gbn/118/authors_credentials.html
*
Ryo Saeba
When not in armor, the samurai of the Tokugawa (Edo) period
(1600-1867) customarily wore two single-edged, slightly curved swords,
one long and one short, edge side up, in their scabbards inserted
through the sash at his waist. Wearing both swords edge side up
facilitated iaijutsu, or the art of drawing and striking with a blade,
fast and quickly.
When in armor, however, the samurai of the Tokugawa and earlier
periods wore the long sword, edge side down, in its scabbard slung
from his waist. He wore the short sword, edge side up, in its scabbard
inserted through the sash at his waist.
The long sword was called katana; the short sword was called
wakizashi. Some samurai, however, substituted for the short sword, or
wakizashi, a knife with a hilt, known as tantou, or a knife without a
hilt, known as aikuchi.
The long sword and the short sword were also known as daitou (lit.,
long sword, big sword) and shoutou (lit., short sword, small sword),
respectively. The pair of swords worn by the samurai were known as
daishou (dai + shou; dai from daitou, shou from shoutou).
In the informed views of most arms and armor experts - at least all
Ryo Saeba
It has been many, many years since I have read up on Japanese swords,
but I seem to recall that the tachi was a long sword worn in its
scabbard, cutting edge side down, slung from the waist of samurai in
battle armor. On the other hand, the katana was a long sword worn in
its scabbard, cutting edge side up, inserted through the sash at the
waist of samurai not in battle armor.
The tachi scabbard was designed to be slung from the waist; the katana
scabbard was designed to be inserted through a sash at the waist.
*
Ryo Saeba
(1600-1867) - i.e., much of the Muromachi (Ashikaga) period
(1336-1573) and earlier - the samurai were warriors who fought much of
the time while riding horses. The long tachi sword, slung from the
waist in its scabbard, cutting edge side down, was perfect for mounted
swordsmanship and the ground-to-heaven fast draw on horseback.
As the Tokugawa period approached and came, however, much of the
samurai fighting took place on foot. Also, as peace become more and
more part of everyday life, the samurai more and more wore his two
swords with ordinary clothing.
The length of the long sword was shortened, and the samurai wore the
long sword, known as the katana, as he did the short sword: in its
scabbard, cutting edge side up, inserted through the sash at his
waist. These modifications were better suited for footed swordsmanship
and the heaven-to-ground fast draw on the ground.
*
ru.ig...@usask.ca
>"Manbow Papa" <kis...@NoSparkcity.ne.jp> wrote in message
>news:apt0lc$2dco$1...@news.parkcity.ne.jp...
>> century, the secret of sharpness and toughness of katana was
>> eventually unvailed. Soft steel is used for the body of katana
>> and pure hard steel is used for the blade. The blade is consisted of
>> thousands of thin ribbon layer of steel. When several layers get
>> cracked, many other layers will still stay undamaged. And, the soft
>> body effectively absorb the shock of collision.
>It's not so much that each part is made of a different steel, it's that the
>same steel is used throughout, but the tempering gives different properties
>to different parts of the sword. For the most part, it has similar
>properties to spring steel, but the blade itself is very hard. You'll
>notice the pattern on the blade where the clay was scraped off, allowing one
>part to be insulated from the heat, and the other to be tempered.
It's been a long, long time since I looked at swordmaking, but...
I was pretty sure that the edge steel was folded into a lesser
piece of steel. Whether the body was the same alloy but with
less folding or it was just a generally softer steel, I don't
recall. The explanation I got was just as given above: steel
folded as much as the blade's was simply too brittle even with
the differential tempering. The softer steel was too soft to
be an edge but had the resilience to absorb the shock of impact.
So the logical idea was to combine the two metals part of the way
through the folding process. It was this combination of numerous
folds, differential composition, and differential tempering that
lead to the finest swords ever made anywhere, and none of these
alone were enough.
I also seem to recall that this was the explanation behind
the curvature of the katana. Before tempering it was actually
a straight piece of metal, but during tempering the softer
metal contracted more than the harder edge. Basically the
bimetal effect. Would that happen with a same-metal sword
in differential tempering (it wouldn't under less extreme
temperature changes to room temperature)?
One thing that I'm confused about right now is where the
clay was applied. I thought it was applied on the body
of the blade leaving the edge exposed, but I've got this
mental image of someone painting the clay onto the edge
(which doesn't make sense to me). It was a straight piece
of metal, so I could simply be swapping sides in my head.
Clarification please.
ru
--
Maintainer of the "Welcome to REC.ARTS.ANIME.MUSIC" FAQ
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-hierarchy/rec/arts/anime/music
http://www.geocities.com/ruigarashi/FAQS/rec.arts.anime.music.html
and the Annual rec.arts.anime.* "What are we like?" survey
http://www.geocities.com/ruigarashi/Surveys/fans/
Kent Hyam
Manbow Papa wrote:
>
> In some records of 16th century, missionaries from Netherland
> wrote in a surprise like that a swordman cut a man into two pieces
> with his long heavy razersharp sword just in a move. In the 20th
> century, the secret of sharpness and toughness of katana was
> eventually unvailed. Soft steel is used for the body of katana
> and pure hard steel is used for the blade. The blade is consisted of
> thousands of thin ribbon layer of steel. When several layers get
> cracked, many other layers will still stay undamaged. And, the soft
> body effectively absorb the shock of collision.
>
> The steel used for the blade is called "tama hagane" (jewelry
> steel). Tama hagane is 99% pure iron, which any large steel
> manufacturer in the world cannot produce, and only made by
> traditional "tatara" process which you can see in "Mononoke Hime".
>
More generally, the process is known as "pattern welding" and was necessary due to
the difficulty in producing large pieces of steel. This meant that a quality
sword could only be produced by joining several smaller pieces of steel together,
something very difficult to do. There were many methods of doing this, with the
Japanese arguably being one of the best.
There's an interesting article about this at:
http://swordforum.com/forge/roadtodamascus.html
A good site for Japanese swords in general is
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
Kent Hyam
Kent Hyam
ru.ig...@usask.ca wrote:
Higher quality Japanese blades are laminated, but its not because of the
folding. Usually the edge would be high carbon steel (harder but brittle) and
the body low carbon steel (softer and more flexible). This was time consuming
and difficult so some swords were made out of only one type of steel. Also note
that it is debatable whether a high quality Japanese sword would be intrinsically
superior to a high quality European, Chinese or Middle Eastern sword.
>
> I also seem to recall that this was the explanation behind
> the curvature of the katana. Before tempering it was actually
> a straight piece of metal, but during tempering the softer
> metal contracted more than the harder edge. Basically the
> bimetal effect. Would that happen with a same-metal sword
> in differential tempering (it wouldn't under less extreme
> temperature changes to room temperature)?
>
Japanese swords made from one steel show the same curve so I assume it's caused
by the different rates of cooling.
>
> One thing that I'm confused about right now is where the
> clay was applied. I thought it was applied on the body
> of the blade leaving the edge exposed, but I've got this
> mental image of someone painting the clay onto the edge
> (which doesn't make sense to me). It was a straight piece
> of metal, so I could simply be swapping sides in my head.
> Clarification please.
>
Clay is painted onto the body, leaving the edge exposed. Thus when the blade is
quenched, the edge cools more quickly, resulting in a harder form of steel.
>
> ru
>
> --
> Maintainer of the "Welcome to REC.ARTS.ANIME.MUSIC" FAQ
> ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-hierarchy/rec/arts/anime/music
> http://www.geocities.com/ruigarashi/FAQS/rec.arts.anime.music.html
> and the Annual rec.arts.anime.* "What are we like?" survey
> http://www.geocities.com/ruigarashi/Surveys/fans/
Kent Hyam
Chris Mattern
> The following is written down mainly from memory.
>
> When not in armor, the samurai of the Tokugawa (Edo) period
> (1600-1867) customarily wore two single-edged, slightly curved swords,
> one long and one short, edge side up, in their scabbards inserted
> through the sash at his waist. Wearing both swords edge side up
> facilated iaijutsu, or the art of drawing and striking with a blade,
> fast and quickly.
Eh? Wearing the sword edge side up *interfered* with iaijutsu, as
a moment's visualization will make clear. The sword was worn edge
up so that it would not rest on the edge, blunting it. If the samurai
found it necessary to prepare for an iai, he would grasp the scabbard
and flip it over.
Chris Mattern
Manbow Papa
"Kent Hyam" <krh...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message news:3DC2DD46...@myrealbox.com...
<snip>
> Higher quality Japanese blades are laminated, but its not because of the
> folding. Usually the edge would be high carbon steel (harder but brittle) and
> the body low carbon steel (softer and more flexible). This was time consuming
> and difficult so some swords were made out of only one type of steel. Also note
> that it is debatable whether a high quality Japanese sword would be intrinsically
> superior to a high quality European, Chinese or Middle Eastern sword.
According to the TV program, thin ribbon layers are produced
by repetive process of heating, folding, pounding and cooling steel.
When the steel is folded ten times, it produces about 1,000 layers
(2^10 = 1,024). In the program, a swordsmith pointed out that
a fine katana needs:
1) good source of iron (finest iron sand found in a river in San'in region)
2) sulphur free process for tama hagane (charcoal and tatara mill)
3) managing temperature throughout the forging process (still a secret)
4) finest whetstone
Japan seems to be the only country that has/had(?) all such condition.
Glenn Shaw
> One thing that I'm confused about right now is where the
> clay was applied. I thought it was applied on the body
> of the blade leaving the edge exposed, but I've got this
> mental image of someone painting the clay onto the edge
> (which doesn't make sense to me). It was a straight piece
> of metal, so I could simply be swapping sides in my head.
> Clarification please.
There is a brief illustrated primer on how Japanese swords are made in the
Usagi Yojimbo "Daisho" trade paperback (Dark Horse Comics, 1998; ISBN 1-
56971-292-1), which shows a Japanese swordsmith crafting a katana; the part
where he applies the clay to the blade clearly shows the clay being applied
to the sword, with the edge receiving little or no clay.
--
Glenn Shaw
Indianapolis, IN USA
... who *really* needs to catch up on the tales of Stan Sakai's ronin
rabbit....
Kent Hyam
Manbow Papa wrote:
> "Kent Hyam" <krh...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message news:3DC2DD46...@myrealbox.com...
> <snip>
> > Higher quality Japanese blades are laminated, but its not because of the
> > folding. Usually the edge would be high carbon steel (harder but brittle) and
> > the body low carbon steel (softer and more flexible). This was time consuming
> > and difficult so some swords were made out of only one type of steel. Also note
> > that it is debatable whether a high quality Japanese sword would be intrinsically
> > superior to a high quality European, Chinese or Middle Eastern sword.
>
> According to the TV program, thin ribbon layers are produced
> by repetive process of heating, folding, pounding and cooling steel.
> When the steel is folded ten times, it produces about 1,000 layers
> (2^10 = 1,024).
Additionally, the best swords have a core of softer steel for added resilience. There's a
description of blade types at http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/laminate.htm and a photoessay
showing the making a kobuse blade at http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/fujiyasu/swordmk.html
. For this method, the folded steel you described is shaped into a "U" and then a core of
lower carbon steel added.
> In the program, a swordsmith pointed out that
> a fine katana needs:
>
> 1) good source of iron (finest iron sand found in a river in San'in region)
> 2) sulphur free process for tama hagane (charcoal and tatara mill)
> 3) managing temperature throughout the forging process (still a secret)
> 4) finest whetstone
>
> Japan seems to be the only country that has/had(?) all such condition.
>
No it wasn't. Other countries also made very good swords, although the exact methods differed
from place to place. It's more than possible to make a convincing argument that Japanese
swords are the "best", but it's not a given.
>
> --
Kent Hyam
sanjian
news:3DC2DD46...@myrealbox.com...
> Higher quality Japanese blades are laminated, but its not because of the
> folding. Usually the edge would be high carbon steel (harder but brittle)
and
> the body low carbon steel (softer and more flexible). This was time
consuming
> and difficult so some swords were made out of only one type of steel.
Also note
> that it is debatable whether a high quality Japanese sword would be
intrinsically
> superior to a high quality European, Chinese or Middle Eastern sword.
>
> >
> > I also seem to recall that this was the explanation behind
> > the curvature of the katana. Before tempering it was actually
> > a straight piece of metal, but during tempering the softer
> > metal contracted more than the harder edge. Basically the
> > bimetal effect. Would that happen with a same-metal sword
> > in differential tempering (it wouldn't under less extreme
> > temperature changes to room temperature)?
> >
>
> Japanese swords made from one steel show the same curve so I assume it's
caused
> by the different rates of cooling.
Actually, it's curvature was often intentionally set. For iado techniques,
longer arms would need a more gentle arc for optimum blade speed, while
shorter arms requires a bit tighter curve. They were often forged for a
specific person (since the bushi class could afford it).
Anyways, any curvature that would occur due to setting the crystal lattice
structure unevenly during cooling would cause alot of residual stress, which
is not good for a sword.
> > One thing that I'm confused about right now is where the
> > clay was applied. I thought it was applied on the body
> > of the blade leaving the edge exposed, but I've got this
> > mental image of someone painting the clay onto the edge
> > (which doesn't make sense to me). It was a straight piece
> > of metal, so I could simply be swapping sides in my head.
> > Clarification please.
> >
>
> Clay is painted onto the body, leaving the edge exposed. Thus when the
blade is
> quenched, the edge cools more quickly, resulting in a harder form of
steel.
Which held an edge better.
Kent Hyam
sanjian wrote:
Okay, here's a simplified rundown on the quenching of a Japanese sword. At this
point the smith has finished the basic shape of the sword (including a slight
curve which will increase during quenching). He then aplies clay to everything
except the cutting edge of the blade, after careful roughening the sides to make
sure the clay sticks. After the clay dries the sword is heated and the plunged
into a trough of cool water. A lot of blades break at this point, but those
that survive are tempered to relieve internal stresses by heating them to a much
lower temperature and requenching them. After this the final shape and
curvature of the blade can be adjusted by heating and hammering specific
sections.
I got the above information from a description of Naginita construction at
http://www.scnf.org/forge.html , but it applies to swords as well.
>
> > > One thing that I'm confused about right now is where the
> > > clay was applied. I thought it was applied on the body
> > > of the blade leaving the edge exposed, but I've got this
> > > mental image of someone painting the clay onto the edge
> > > (which doesn't make sense to me). It was a straight piece
> > > of metal, so I could simply be swapping sides in my head.
> > > Clarification please.
> > >
> >
> > Clay is painted onto the body, leaving the edge exposed. Thus when the
> blade is
> > quenched, the edge cools more quickly, resulting in a harder form of
> steel.
>
> Which held an edge better.
Kent Hyam
Ryo Saeba
Whether or not a samurai moves the scabbard around just before he
draws the blade, wearing the cutting edge up is much better suited
than wearing the cutting edge down for drawing the blade quickly from
the ground.
Chris Mattern
I'm sorry, I can't see this. The samurai has the sword sheathed at
his left hip. He reaches across his body to grasp the hilt with his
right hand. If the sheath is edge up, *he will grasp the hilt so that
the edge faces him when he draws the sword*. I don't see how iai is
even possible in that situation.
Chris Mattern
RICMRUNNER
>his left hip. He reaches across his body to grasp the hilt with his
>right hand. If the sheath is edge up, *he will grasp the hilt so that
>the edge faces him when he draws the sword*. I don't see how iai is
>even possible in that situation.
>
> Chris Mattern
>
anime is with the first OVA's of Kenshin. His "battojutsu" is an exaggerated
draw, at least with the perspective of the school I'm in.
In seitei gata, the first kata is similar to the battojutsu. In a sitting
(seiza) position, the draw starts slowly pointing towards the opponent's face.
The purpose is to get the opponent to back off. When the sword is almost out
of the scabbard (saya) it is turned horizontally then cuts across the upper
portion of the body. In other kata the sword can be turned in other ways but
the initial draw tends to stay the same.
If the sword starts blade down, it would be more difficult to make the starting
draw. It would also indicate to the opponent the cut is going from bottom to
top.
By the way, the tsuba is positioned in the center of the body. It shifts
during the various movements but usually returns to the center.
I left out a lot of detail, but that's the gist of it. I've only taken iaido
for about a year so other iaidoka can probably criticize what I've described.
My school is Musou Shinden Ryu.
Gaijin Dan Mastriani
> I'm sorry, I can't see this. The samurai has the sword sheathed at
> his left hip. He reaches across his body to grasp the hilt with his
> right hand. If the sheath is edge up, *he will grasp the hilt so that
> the edge faces him when he draws the sword*. I don't see how iai is
> even possible in that situation.
You bend your wrist and grab the hilt with your knuckles facing up.
--
Gaijin Dan Mastriani
I hate myself, but I could like myself.
"The King of Fighters, you silly twit!"
"You say losers are evil? Well then, looks like you are
definitely evil!" -Jotaro Kujo, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
My homepage is at http://members.aol.com/gaijind/ Updated 12/7/01!
It's the home of the *Official* GRIT Chatroom. Oh my GOD!
"Nobody can stop my turning to madness, no matter how you try
to hold me in your heart." -X-Japan, "Art of Life"
Nargun
> "Chris Mattern" <matt...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:JZudnXjFcIc...@comcast.com:
>
> > I'm sorry, I can't see this. The samurai has the sword sheathed at
> > his left hip. He reaches across his body to grasp the hilt with his
> > right hand. If the sheath is edge up, *he will grasp the hilt so that
> > the edge faces him when he draws the sword*. I don't see how iai is
> > even possible in that situation.
>
> You bend your wrist and grab the hilt with your knuckles facing up.
Rotating the sword 90deg in the process, so the blade now faces outwards.
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
"You have plundered this dead man's property, you have all
the toys you need to keep you alive; now may we move on?"
- Balthamos, _The Amber Spyglass_
sanjian
news:20021107231238...@mb-fa.aol.com...
I think most people are confused by that because they're only thinking of
the draw starting from the scabbard in the belt. Obviously, from that
position, having the blade facing up would absolutely prevent any attempt at
drawing it, let alone doing so quickly.
Chris Mattern
"Nargun" <lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.102110...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au...
>
> > "Chris Mattern" <matt...@comcast.net> wrote in
> > news:JZudnXjFcIc...@comcast.com:
> >
> > > I'm sorry, I can't see this. The samurai has the sword sheathed at
> > > his left hip. He reaches across his body to grasp the hilt with his
> > > right hand. If the sheath is edge up, *he will grasp the hilt so that
> > > the edge faces him when he draws the sword*. I don't see how iai is
> > > even possible in that situation.
> >
> > You bend your wrist and grab the hilt with your knuckles facing up.
>
> Rotating the sword 90deg in the process, so the blade now faces outwards.
>
is rotated by the draw rather than before the draw. That actually makes a
fair amount of sense. And RICMRUNNER is right, it would give you more flexibility
as to how to execute the strike.
Chris Mattern
Ryo Saeba
Thank you very much, RICMRUNNER, for your highly informed views on the
matter.
Since you have indicated the name of your iaidô school, you especially
may find the following of particular interest:
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/A.A.G.Schiebroek/iaido/iaido.html
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/A.A.G.Schiebroek/iaido/iaido.mpg
Happy viewing! ^_^
*
RICMRUNNER
I saw the clip. It's good, although it would take me many more years to get to
that kata. It's not so clear in the kata, but you can sorta see why the blade
is faced up in the beginning and end.