Complaints about Rurouni Kenshin translation by Anime Works...
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
Okay, so it's a Japanese show that _obviously_ takes place in Japan.
So, why do they try so hard to anglosize it? I find it _very_ insulting.
I'm surprised at the lengths they go to in order to do this. What follows
is only a few examples.
They will actually edit the video to remove any Japanese writing.
What's wrong with subtitling kana? The font used for the show's original
starting title was so nice, for example, and it was totally removed.
They will go to any lengths not to use Japanese words in the
translation, even if they have no translations. It's ironic since many
words (or so I've read on the web) used in RK are made up words.
Translating "sakabatou" is like trying to translate "kryptonite." What's
the Japanese word for kryptonite? There isn't one, like there's no
translation for sakabatou. Not to mention that "reverse blade sword" is a
little wordy.
They will go to any lengths not to use Japanese words. This deserves to
be listed twice. We all know what a "katana" is, why do they insist on
always translating this as "Japanese sword?" Who the fuck are the
Imperialists? What's wrong with the Ishin Shishi. This is like calling the
prime minister of Canada our president. There is no end to examples like
this.
Again, there is really no translation to the Japanese honorifics, so why
even try?
They assume you can't here the people speaking. It looks _really_
stupid to hear someone say "Shinamori Aoshi" slowly while the subtitles
display, a word at a time, "Aoshi," "Shinamori." Aku, Soku, Zan, is another
glaring example of this.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Shin Gan really the "Mind's Eye?"
Proper nouns _never_ need translation, yet they still do so (to their
credit, this is actually quite rare).
There are a few cases where they _really_ offend me, like the closing
text of episode 31, A Wish Unrequited (no spoilers!). Again, the thought
text used in episode 56, a Duel with an Extreme Moment, was done very poorly
and offended me _greatly._ It was an emotional moment and simply subtitling
the text would have been so much better...
To their credit, they actually have been translating less and less as
the series progressed. Although they still stuck with their original
translations, like "Japanese sword" and "reverse blade sword," for some
reason, they decided to use "Wakizashi" and "Waraji." In fact, this trend
start at episode 28, Prelude to the Impending Fight, where they (very
thankfully) didn't translate Aku Soku Zan. Translating that would have
simply looked stupid.
Am I alone here or does anyone else agree? Any disagreements? Why
would they do these things? Do they take us for idiots?
Thanks for giving me somewhere to vent...
John "Avtomat Tarantula" Cable
Anime Works, an American company?
I'm guessing that they're anime fans, too. We all know you can't
trust an anime fan.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"WE GOT THE LAW ON OUR SIDE, I'M GONNA FAIL TO YIELD!"
- Mike "Crazy Legs" Nelson, MST3K
I'm a fleabit peanut monkey, all my friends are junkies.
But that's not really true. :(
Jules
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality wrote:
> I've wanted to rant about this for some time now.
> Okay, so it's a Japanese show that _obviously_ takes place in Japan.
> So, why do they try so hard to anglosize it? I find it _very_ insulting.
> I'm surprised at the lengths they go to in order to do this. What follows
> is only a few examples.
> They will actually edit the video to remove any Japanese writing.
> What's wrong with subtitling kana? The font used for the show's original
> starting title was so nice, for example, and it was totally removed.
I agree with this; there's nothing wrong with subtitling it in the first place;
it would have been very nice.
>
> They will go to any lengths not to use Japanese words in the
> translation, even if they have no translations. It's ironic since many
> words (or so I've read on the web) used in RK are made up words.
> Translating "sakabatou" is like trying to translate "kryptonite." What's
> the Japanese word for kryptonite? There isn't one, like there's no
> translation for sakabatou. Not to mention that "reverse blade sword" is a
> little wordy.
> They will go to any lengths not to use Japanese words. This deserves to
> be listed twice. We all know what a "katana" is, why do they insist on
> always translating this as "Japanese sword?" Who the fuck are the
> Imperialists? What's wrong with the Ishin Shishi. This is like calling the
> prime minister of Canada our president. There is no end to examples like
> this.
> Again, there is really no translation to the Japanese honorifics, so why
> even try?
>
Because not EVERYone who watches it is going to be up and up on these things,
that's why. Because occasionally there are kids watching it, or first-timers who
wouldn't get things like that.
Not everyone is a fangirl/boy who likes to think that they understand all the
subtleties of the language and history of Japan. ;)
Most of all, because they made the show for everyone who might like it, not just
for an exclusive "well *IIII* knew that!" sort of crowd.
> They assume you can't here the people speaking. It looks _really_
> stupid to hear someone say "Shinamori Aoshi" slowly while the subtitles
> display, a word at a time, "Aoshi," "Shinamori." Aku, Soku, Zan, is another
> glaring example of this.
>
I agree that they should leave the names the way they were though.
> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Shin Gan really the "Mind's Eye?"
> Proper nouns _never_ need translation, yet they still do so (to their
> credit, this is actually quite rare).
>
> There are a few cases where they _really_ offend me, like the closing
> text of episode 31, A Wish Unrequited (no spoilers!). Again, the thought
> text used in episode 56, a Duel with an Extreme Moment, was done very poorly
> and offended me _greatly._ It was an emotional moment and simply subtitling
> the text would have been so much better...
>
I also agree that they could have handled the last scene in ep 31 a LOT better,
and that a lot of times the translations are stupid and clumsy, that is. ;D
But again, not everyone who is watching it is going to know (and in some cases
care) about this. There is such a thing as just enjoying a show without digging
to the bottom of it and becoming Japanese in order to understand every last
detail.
>
> Am I alone here or does anyone else agree? Any disagreements? Why
> would they do these things? Do they take us for idiots?
> Thanks for giving me somewhere to vent...
No, I'm sure they don't. But to assume that anyone who doesn't understand the
subleties of the language and culture is an idiot is unfair and self righteous.
malama!
jules
Dave Oldridge
wrote in message news:je678.90304$I8.18...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...
> I've wanted to rant about this for some time now.
I've been thinking of picking up the DVDs for the series, specifically
the Kyoto arc. Are these complaints happening in the subtitled version, or
is it just the dubbing that's fouled up? Do these scene cuts (to remove
Kana and Kanji) also exist in the DVD version?
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Dave Oldridge" <daveol...@comnet.ca> wrote in message
news:ESd78.14270$liz....@news2.bloor.is...
Sadly, I was commenting on the subtitles. There's no way in hell I'd
ever watch the dub. I know I'm a little snobbish in this manner but I think
everyone can agree that the voice acting in most anime dubs are just aweful.
I think the problem is that these companies don't have big budgets to spend
on decent voice actors, not to mention that voice acting isn't exactly big
in this part of the world.
Also, these cuts _do_ exist in the DVD. I haven't seen the VHS version
(I very rarely rent VHS and certianly _never_ buy it. Yes, more snobbiness
on my part). The cuts aren't too long, never more than a moment (2 seconds,
tops!). They never cut for content like violence or sex or anything (like
there's any sex in RK!).
In fact, I have never seen an entire dubbed episode (although I have
actually tried!) so I can't really comment on that translation. What I
_can_ say (aside from the quality of the acting) is that the pronounciation
of the names are just plain _wrong!_ and the voices don't fit the
characters. Kenshin is supposed to be effeminate, after all, so why the
masculine voice?
Now, that's not to say you shouldn't purchase these DVD's. I'm always
very supportive of companies importing anime and, in some ways, the anime
works DVD's are very well done. For instance, the translation, although
very anglosized, is also very literal. Sometimes this makes the translation
awkward as in the climax of episode 49, the Wolf Destroys the Shin Gan (I
swear, these titles are such spoilers!) but, other times, it makes the
translation much better than even the fansubs (my opinion, of course.
Perhaps Hecto or the Shinsegumi feel differently?). The explanation of
Kenshin's counter in episode 30, the Devil of Vengence, is a good example of
this.
However, if you purchase the Kyoto Arc, you'll see what I'm complaining
about and you'll cringe too. But what can you do?
Just curious, but why _only_ the Kyoto Arc?
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Jules" <jul...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3C5D6199...@optonline.net...
I'm sure kids _won't_ be watching it (the content is a little mature,
ne?) but I understand what you're saing. Still, if you removed any type of
address from all the names (so that it was just Kaoru, instead of Miss
Kaoru, or Kaoru-dono) then, with the exception of Aoshi and Makato
(whose -sama honorific _is_ essential), everything will still look perfectly
natural. So, what harm does it do to introduce them? People will either
understand them, learn to understand them (just from example or doing their
own research), or simply ignore them. Sounds good to me!
And I don't think preserving historic names (like Ishin Shishi and
Bakumatsu) decreases it's appeal any (it might even help it). I guess the
bottom line is, if they preserved all the names, it will _still_ be a show
for everyone.
> > They assume you can't here the people speaking. It looks _really_
> > stupid to hear someone say "Shinamori Aoshi" slowly while the subtitles
> > display, a word at a time, "Aoshi," "Shinamori." Aku, Soku, Zan, is
another
> > glaring example of this.
>
> I agree that they should leave the names the way they were though.
Uhg, I hate it when I make mistakes like that!
The first line is supposed to read "you can't _hear_ the people..."
Damn...
> > There are a few cases where they _really_ offend me, like the
closing
> > text of episode 31, A Wish Unrequited (no spoilers!). Again, the
thought
> > text used in episode 56, a Duel with an Extreme Moment, was done very
poorly
> > and offended me _greatly._ It was an emotional moment and simply
subtitling
> > the text would have been so much better...
>
> I also agree that they could have handled the last scene in ep 31 a LOT
better,
> and that a lot of times the translations are stupid and clumsy, that is.
;D
> But again, not everyone who is watching it is going to know (and in some
cases
> care) about this. There is such a thing as just enjoying a show without
digging
> to the bottom of it and becoming Japanese in order to understand every
last
> detail.
Again, I understand what you're saying but, consider this. If you
simply don't care, then having subtitles to the original kana (really,
that's why they edited that scene, ne?) won't bother you. However, if you
_do_ care, then it looks really cheesy.
> > Am I alone here or does anyone else agree? Any disagreements? Why
> > would they do these things? Do they take us for idiots?
> > Thanks for giving me somewhere to vent...
>
> No, I'm sure they don't. But to assume that anyone who doesn't understand
the
> subleties of the language and culture is an idiot is unfair and self
righteous.
I don't mean to say that anyone who is not Japanese is an idiot. What I
_do_ mean is that their translation and editing is very condescending. The
translation I propose doesn't (in my opinion) require _any_ understanding of
Japanese culture to enjoy. Indeed, all the history in the show is explained
_in_the_show_ 'cause the Japanese didn't assume that their _own_ people will
know much about their history (and rightly so, how much of Canadian history
do _I_ know?). Indeed, if someone holds up a samurai sword and calls it a
katana, do you think people will figure out what a katana is? I think so!
Fish Eye no Miko
> Also, these cuts _do_ exist in the DVD.
What cuts?
> I haven't seen the VHS version (I very rarely rent VHS and certianly
_never_
> buy it. Yes, more snobbiness on my part). The cuts aren't too long,
never
> more than a moment (2 seconds, tops!). They never cut for content like
> violence or sex or anything (like there's any sex in RK!).
If you've not seen the VHS version, how do you know about any cuts?
> In fact, I have never seen an entire dubbed episode (although I have
> actually tried!) so I can't really comment on that translation. What I
> _can_ say (aside from the quality of the acting) is that the
pronounciation
> of the names are just plain _wrong!_
Examples?
> and the voices don't fit the characters. Kenshin is supposed to be
effeminate,
> after all, so why the masculine voice?
No, he's not, really. And I like his dub voice, that I do.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"Every time you hear a bell ring, a Balrog gets its wings."
-Anne Warfield, alt.fan.tolkien.
Jules
> _can_ say (aside from the quality of the acting) is that the pronounciation
> of the names are just plain _wrong!_ and the voices don't fit the
> characters. Kenshin is supposed to be effeminate, after all, so why the
> masculine voice?
Sorry for rushing this; it's a really interesting thread, but I'm pressed for
time right now. However I did ahve to adress this. Kenshin is assuredly NOT
supposed to be effeminate. He's supposed to be gentle and softspoken. But gentle
and softspoken do not = effeminate.
However I do agree that the dub is atrocious. "Kaoruuuuuuu!" :/
malama,
jules
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> > What I
> > _can_ say (aside from the quality of the acting) is that the
pronounciation
> > of the names are just plain _wrong!_ and the voices don't fit the
> > characters. Kenshin is supposed to be effeminate, after all, so why the
> > masculine voice?
>
> Sorry for rushing this; it's a really interesting thread, but I'm pressed
for
> time right now. However I did ahve to adress this. Kenshin is assuredly
NOT
> supposed to be effeminate. He's supposed to be gentle and softspoken. But
gentle
> and softspoken do not = effeminate.
There are two reasons why I say this. I got this info off the web, so
perhaps they're not true (correct me if I'm wrong!). First, Himura Kenshin
was (loosely) based on the hitokiri Kawakami Gensai, one of the four great
hitokiri of the time. Historically, he was often mistaken as a woman at
first glance, but he was said to be cold, calculating, and the worst of the
four.
Second, I imagine his character is played by a woman for a reason...
> However I do agree that the dub is atrocious. "Kaoruuuuuuu!" :/
Well, at least we agree on one thing!
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
news:mIm78.10477$Xk4.5...@news1.east.cox.net...
> "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain>
> wrote in message news:zEh78.92961$I8.18...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
> > Also, these cuts _do_ exist in the DVD.
>
> What cuts?
Upon closer inspection, there are actually fewer cuts than I had
thought. My apologies for misleading anyone.
Both openings have been edited to overlay English titles where the old
titles used to be (most obvious with the second opening, One Half). The
most relevant cut would be the ending of episode 31, a Wish Unrequited.
Again, what's wrong with subtitling kana? They're done it before, even...
> > I haven't seen the VHS version (I very rarely rent VHS and certianly
> _never_
> > buy it. Yes, more snobbiness on my part). The cuts aren't too long,
> never
> > more than a moment (2 seconds, tops!). They never cut for content like
> > violence or sex or anything (like there's any sex in RK!).
>
> If you've not seen the VHS version, how do you know about any cuts?
Well, I've seen the DVD and I expect the two to be the same. However, I
accept the possibility that they're different, which is why I brought up the
fact that I had never seen it.
> > In fact, I have never seen an entire dubbed episode (although I have
> > actually tried!) so I can't really comment on that translation. What I
> > _can_ say (aside from the quality of the acting) is that the
> pronounciation
> > of the names are just plain _wrong!_
>
> Examples?
Both Himura and Megumi are but two examples...
> > and the voices don't fit the characters. Kenshin is supposed to be
> effeminate,
> > after all, so why the masculine voice?
>
> No, he's not, really. And I like his dub voice, that I do.
Watsuki Nobuhiro explained where he got the inspiration for Kenshin in
an aside (which he often, if not always, does) in the front page of his
manga.
You sound like you don't believe a word I say...
Mark L. Neidengard
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <moc.re...@di.invalid> wrote:
>
> Second, I imagine his character is played by a woman for a reason...
Kenshin being a bishounen is reason enough, and bishounen does not by any
means equal effeminate. Female seiyuu are used all the time, the most notable
"male" vocalist of which being Ogata Megumi. Her debut character (Kurama in
Yuu-Yuu Hakusho) was male, as was perhaps her best known role as Ikari Shinji
in EVA. You should care about the vocal tone and articulation of the
characters, not about the age or gender of the people voicing them behind the
scenes.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, EE Grad, VLSI. http://keyframe.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Dave Oldridge
> Just curious, but why _only_ the Kyoto Arc?
I've already seen the entire series through a local anime club. IMO,
the episodes leading up to the Kyoto arc do a good job of developing the
characters, but aren't as strong in story. Since I'd be getting the series
only for myself, already know how the characters develop, and have other
anime DVD purchases to make, getting the episodes prior to #28 doesn't seem
too important.
XmagicalX
> I've wanted to rant about this for some time now.
> Okay, so it's a Japanese show that _obviously_ takes place in Japan.
> So, why do they try so hard to anglosize it? I find it _very_ insulting.
> I'm surprised at the lengths they go to in order to do this. What follows
> is only a few examples.
I am totally with you on all of this, and have been asking about it
since I first saw the Kenshin subs. Changing the title shot
particularly irked me for some reason - it's a minor thing, but the
kana and kanji used in the original title graphic is quite lovely, I
think - and I thought this before I could read it. The English font
they use is just, well, ugly. They could've at least chosen an
equivalently ornate English font.
I also wondered about changing the historical terms like Isshin
Shishi, and the honorifics. The show is set in historical Japan; it
concerns Japanese society. I have seen movies set in France which are
in English, but they still use 'mademoiselle' and 'monsieur', to add a
more distinctly French flavor. Admittedly those are better-known
terms then -kun and -dono, but really, Japanese honorifics aren't that
difficult to pick up. Once you encounter them used a few times you
can grasp their meaning. Not that Kenshin should be used for teaching
Japanese lessons...but heck, if it's going to teach you a bit of
Japanese history, why not a bit of cultural knowledge too?
(I was surprised when a friend showed me the Dreamcast game Shunmue,
set in Japan, that the English dub did in fact have the honorifics.
So they have faith in gamers' intelligence, but not run-of-the-mill
anime fans?)
The funny thing is, the DVDs all come with notes which have defined
all these Japanese words which are heard in the show (such as Isshin
Shishi and zanbatou)- but only on the Japanese track, and never
written out in the subs. If you're used to Japanese you can easily
pick out the words, but for someone relatively new to anime with no
knowledge of Japanese, they just get lost in the babble (in my
personal experience showing the show to a couple newbies)
All that being said, I've still been buying the DVDs, to watch Kyoto
arc in all its glory (rather than the incredible low-quality fansubs I
had before) Hey, if worse comes to worse you can always turn off the
subtitles altogether - admittedly if your Japanese is at my level's
then you'll miss most of the dialogue, but if you know the story
already that's not too big a problem...
XmagX
who's also a purist - okay, snob - when it comes to watching dubs, or
not watching them as the case may be. Of the couple moments I've seen
of the Kenshin dubs, the only voice who does any justice to the
original is Saito's, and that's only because he always speaks in a
monotone anyway...
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"Mark L. Neidengard" <mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:a3m6kn$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu...
> In article <d3q78.95307$I8.19...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>,
> Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <moc.re...@di.invalid>
wrote:
> >
> > Second, I imagine his character is played by a woman for a reason...
>
> Kenshin being a bishounen is reason enough, and bishounen does not by any
> means equal effeminate. Female seiyuu are used all the time, the most
notable
> "male" vocalist of which being Ogata Megumi. Her debut character (Kurama
in
> Yuu-Yuu Hakusho) was male, as was perhaps her best known role as Ikari
Shinji
> in EVA. You should care about the vocal tone and articulation of the
> characters, not about the age or gender of the people voicing them behind
the
> scenes.
Bishounen? Is that a real term? I've heard of bishoujo and I know what
a shounen is, so I suppose you mean pretty boy?
Yes, of course using a female seiyuu (good word!) does not imply an
effeminate character, but I was trying to point out that this particular
character (Kenshin) _is_ rather feminine. His voice when not in hitokiri
mode is somewhat feminine (only somewhat, I admit!), but there are a _lot_
of shots where he looks rather girly. Particularly when he's looking back
affectionately or when in half-chibi mode (not full fledged super-deformed).
Couple this with everything else, like how sensitive he is and such, and you
get a protagonist who is rather effeminate.
This is all my opinion, of course. We can only guess as to what Watsuki
was really thinking when he made the character, or what the makers of the
anime were intending to portray (which are not necessarily the same thing!).
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
"XmagicalX" <e...@xmagicalx.net> wrote in message
news:dac338a5.02020...@posting.google.com...
> "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality"
> <ro...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
> The funny thing is, the DVDs all come with notes which have defined
> all these Japanese words which are heard in the show (such as Isshin
> Shishi and zanbatou)- but only on the Japanese track, and never
> written out in the subs. If you're used to Japanese you can easily
> pick out the words, but for someone relatively new to anime with no
> knowledge of Japanese, they just get lost in the babble (in my
> personal experience showing the show to a couple newbies)
Not all, but yeah. The liner notes are a really good idea. I've
learned a lot from them...
> All that being said, I've still been buying the DVDs, to watch Kyoto
> arc in all its glory (rather than the incredible low-quality fansubs I
> had before) Hey, if worse comes to worse you can always turn off the
> subtitles altogether - admittedly if your Japanese is at my level's
> then you'll miss most of the dialogue, but if you know the story
> already that's not too big a problem...
Yeah, I know what you mean. I have the entire AnimeWorks Kenshin
collection. I don't think I'll be getting anything after the Kyoto Arc,
however. The quality of the story drops significantly afterwards. The
trailer for Tales from the Meiji was surprisingly good, though.
Oh, how I would have loved the Jinchuu to be animated...
Mark L. Neidengard
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <moc.re...@di.invalid> wrote:
>
>"Mark L. Neidengard" <mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
>news:a3m6kn$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu...
>>
>> means equal effeminate. Female seiyuu are used all the time, the most
>> notable "male" vocalist of which being Ogata Megumi. Her debut character
>> (Kurama in Yuu-Yuu Hakusho) was male, as was perhaps her best known role as
>> Ikari Shinji in EVA. You should care about the vocal tone and articulation
>> of the characters, not about the age or gender of the people voicing them
>> behind the scenes.
>
> Bishounen? Is that a real term? I've heard of bishoujo and I know what
>a shounen is, so I suppose you mean pretty boy?
Yes "bishounen" is a real term - how long have you been in anime fandom? While
it does indeed literally mean "beautiful boy", it specifically refers to
precisely the group of high-style, fine-featured young men that help make
anime popular with the ladies. ^_^ The archetype's roots extend far back into
the Japanese collective aesthetic, at least as far back as seminal bishounen
Hikari Genji.
> Yes, of course using a female seiyuu (good word!) does not imply an
>effeminate character, but I was trying to point out that this particular
>character (Kenshin) _is_ rather feminine. His voice when not in hitokiri
>mode is somewhat feminine (only somewhat, I admit!), but there are a _lot_
>of shots where he looks rather girly. Particularly when he's looking back
>affectionately or when in half-chibi mode (not full fledged super-deformed).
>Couple this with everything else, like how sensitive he is and such, and you
>get a protagonist who is rather effeminate.
You seem to be confounding "sensitive" and "polite" with "effeminate". Men
need not chew their food with their mouth open, smack up their females, curse
all the time, and have bulging muscles. Politeness, culturedness - these are
quantities that certainly _used_ to make the man in the popular view.
Kenshin's devotion, levelheadedness, dependability, quite apart from his
fearless prowess at arms, certainly demonstrate his manliness from my POV.
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
I've been watching anime for a while now but only recently gotten into
fandom.
You have to be careful with these terms, they're not always symmetric
(or so I'm told). Hav eyou ever heard of shoujo ai? But we all know what
shounen ai is, right?
> > Yes, of course using a female seiyuu (good word!) does not imply an
> >effeminate character, but I was trying to point out that this particular
> >character (Kenshin) _is_ rather feminine. His voice when not in hitokiri
> >mode is somewhat feminine (only somewhat, I admit!), but there are a
_lot_
> >of shots where he looks rather girly. Particularly when he's looking
back
> >affectionately or when in half-chibi mode (not full fledged
super-deformed).
> >Couple this with everything else, like how sensitive he is and such, and
you
> >get a protagonist who is rather effeminate.
>
> You seem to be confounding "sensitive" and "polite" with "effeminate".
Men
> need not chew their food with their mouth open, smack up their females,
curse
> all the time, and have bulging muscles. Politeness, culturedness - these
are
> quantities that certainly _used_ to make the man in the popular view.
> Kenshin's devotion, levelheadedness, dependability, quite apart from his
> fearless prowess at arms, certainly demonstrate his manliness from my POV.
No, I'm _not_ confusing "sensitive" with "effeminate." You're only
saying that because you're ignoring the _rest_ of my argument. What I was
saying did not amount to "He's kind and polite, therefore he's a girl."
On second glance, it looks like the only thing you remember is the
_last_ thing I said. Hmm...
XmagicalX
<ro...@localhost.localdomain> wrote
> Yeah, I know what you mean. I have the entire AnimeWorks Kenshin
> collection. I don't think I'll be getting anything after the Kyoto Arc,
> however. The quality of the story drops significantly afterwards. The
> trailer for Tales from the Meiji was surprisingly good, though.
Yeah, I need to pick up the last 2 Kyoto arc and then I'm stopping.
I've only seen the first couple eps of the 1st season but didn't
especially care for it; after the tension of Kyoto it's hard to match
up.
> Oh, how I would have loved the Jinchuu to be animated...
Now this might be rumor, but I have heard that the new Kenshin OAVs
(the 1st one just came out in Japan) are going to be the Revenge arc -
well, I've been lighting candles and doing dances to heathen gods to
wish it so! The Jinchuu would be perfect for a 4 or 6 part OAV, I
don't think the story's complex enough to carry a whole season -
especially since the whole Tomoe story has already been told - but I
can't wait to see Enishi! (and more Saito, too...)
XmagX
Jules
> saying that because you're ignoring the _rest_ of my argument. What I was
> saying did not amount to "He's kind and polite, therefore he's a girl."
> On second glance, it looks like the only thing you remember is the
> _last_ thing I said. Hmm...
But you are confusing the word "effeminate." Even if he, historically was
mistaken for a woman, that STILL does not mean he's effeminate. One can have
effeminate features and still not be effeminate.
Plus, his seiyuu, even though she is a woman, does not have a traditionally
feminine voice. I forget that she's a woman when I listen to Kenshin. She has a
very deep and sexy voice. And damn! Did you ever hear that war cry?!
Anyway I think that you're using the term "effeminate" too loosely. It is, in
fact, possible to be small, polite, softspoken, even delicate of feature, and
still not be effeminate.
For all of that, Kenshin is one of the manliest characters out there, IMO. Plus,
he could put the smack down on just about anyone. (Just about, that is. There
are those who could open a can on him, and that's cool too.) ^_^
malama,
jules
Jules
> I've only seen the first couple eps of the 1st season but didn't
> especially care for it; after the tension of Kyoto it's hard to match
> up.
>
Well, I'm going to nab a few of them, just because I'm in love with all of the
characters and I really want to see if they do anything more with Saitoh. ^_^
>
> > Oh, how I would have loved the Jinchuu to be animated...
>
> Now this might be rumor, but I have heard that the new Kenshin OAVs
> (the 1st one just came out in Japan) are going to be the Revenge arc -
> well, I've been lighting candles and doing dances to heathen gods to
> wish it so! The Jinchuu would be perfect for a 4 or 6 part OAV, I
> don't think the story's complex enough to carry a whole season -
> especially since the whole Tomoe story has already been told - but I
> can't wait to see Enishi! (and more Saito, too...)
>
> XmagX
Ahhh, a girl after my own heart. ^_^ I've heard this rumor too, and I an
jonzing for it to be true. If they know what's good for them, they'll animate
Revenge. I'd eat it right up, as I'm sure would most RK fans.
Oh, and, are you the same XmagicalX who is the fantastic fanfic writer? :D
later,
jules
Fish Eye no Miko
> I've been watching anime for a while now but only recently gotten into
> fandom.
> You have to be careful with these terms, they're not always symmetric
> (or so I'm told). Hav eyou ever heard of shoujo ai?
Yes. Quite a bit, actually.
> But we all know what shounen ai is, right?
Yes. And many of us know what shoujo ai is. It's the female version of
shounen ai, just as the name implies.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way."
-Frodo Baggins, _The Fellowship of the Ring_.
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Mark L. Neidengard" <mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:a3m6kn$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu...
> > In article <d3q78.95307$I8.19...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>,
> > Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <moc.re...@di.invalid>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Second, I imagine his character is played by a woman for a
reason...
> >
> > Kenshin being a bishounen is reason enough, and bishounen does not by
> > any means equal effeminate. Female seiyuu are used all the time, the
most
> > notable "male" vocalist of which being Ogata Megumi.
>
> Bishounen? Is that a real term?
<blink, blink>
Ummm.. yessss...
> I've heard of bishoujo and I know what a shounen is, so I suppose you
mean
> pretty boy?
Yep, that's exactly what it means.
> Yes, of course using a female seiyuu (good word!)
It's the Japanese term for "voice actor".
You might want to read the FAQ, you seem a bit behind on the lingo...
> does not imply an effeminate character, but I was trying to point out
that
> this particular character (Kenshin) _is_ rather feminine. His voice when
> not in hitokiri mode is somewhat feminine (only somewhat, I admit!), but
> there are a _lot_ of shots where he looks rather girly. Particularly
when he's
> looking back affectionately or when in half-chibi mode (not full fledged
> super-deformed). Couple this with everything else, like how sensitive he
is
> and such, and you get a protagonist who is rather effeminate.
None of which means he has to have a female voice actor--or a male actor
with a feminine voice--in the dub version. He's still a guy.
> This is all my opinion, of course. We can only guess as to what Watsuki
> was really thinking when he made the character,
We can do more then "guess"--he tells us in the manga. He was more or less
basing him on a real person who had similar characteristics.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"When Catherine thinks you're too gay, you're too gay."
-Rob Fontenot, aka The Midnight Rambler, RATMM.
Shadow6865
very deep and sexy voice. And damn! Did you ever hear that war cry?! >>
I think that the voice is recognizably female. My mother who is no expert on
Japanese voices especially Japanese voice acting passed by while I was watching
Kenshin. She heard his voice and recognized him as a man but said something
like "Is that a women doing his voice?"
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> > No, I'm _not_ confusing "sensitive" with "effeminate." You're only
> > saying that because you're ignoring the _rest_ of my argument. What I
was
> > saying did not amount to "He's kind and polite, therefore he's a girl."
> > On second glance, it looks like the only thing you remember is the
> > _last_ thing I said. Hmm...
>
> But you are confusing the word "effeminate." Even if he, historically was
> mistaken for a woman, that STILL does not mean he's effeminate. One can
have
> effeminate features and still not be effeminate.
I suppose this is true but consider what you're saying. Isn't it
sounding a little self-contradictory to you? It's like (I'll admit that
this example is a little more extreme than what we're discussing, but
extremes are often used to make a point obvious) saying that a man can dress
up in women's clothing and not be a transvestite. But isn't that the very
definition of transvestite?
www.webster.com (not the best dictionary in the world but, c'mon! Are
we word snobs here?) defines "effeminate" as a man who _merely_ has feminine
_qualities._ An effeminate man is not a man who's a girl! It's second
definition is even more liberal.
> Plus, his seiyuu, even though she is a woman, does not have a
traditionally
> feminine voice. I forget that she's a woman when I listen to Kenshin. She
has a
> very deep and sexy voice. And damn! Did you ever hear that war cry?!
I admit that I lose myself in the story (it's such a good story, after
all!) and accept that Kenshin's a man. Don't get me wrong, that voice is
awesome! Especially that war cry (episode 40, a Killer Without Mercy, is a
good example).
> Anyway I think that you're using the term "effeminate" too loosely. It is,
in
> fact, possible to be small, polite, softspoken, even delicate of feature,
and
> still not be effeminate.
After checking webster, I think my use of the word is very good.
May I be as bold to suggest that there is a surprising amount of
resistance to this idea? I mean, people sound _offended_ by my suggestion.
Is there something _wrong_ with being effeminate? Personally, I think the
juxtaposition of these two properties of Kenshin (his being the hitokiri and
his personality) make him really interesting.
> For all of that, Kenshin is one of the manliest characters out there, IMO.
Plus,
> he could put the smack down on just about anyone. (Just about, that is.
There
> are those who could open a can on him, and that's cool too.) ^_^
Sure, he's a cool cat and a tough guy. No one's denying that (just
watch the show!). But even Sano talks about how wussy (this is a fansub
translation, we can only guess what he _really_ said) he looks. It's the
_deceptive_ looks that adds interest (it's not the only thing to his
character, thank god!) to his character.
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain>
> wrote in message news:XML78.100605$I8.20...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
>
> It's the Japanese term for "voice actor".
> You might want to read the FAQ, you seem a bit behind on the lingo...
Which FAQ? I just checked the rec.arts.anime.misc FAQ (I _didn't_ find
a simple rec.arts.anime FAQ) and there was _nothing_ in there (I did a text
search) about the terms shounen, shoujo, ai, or seiyuu. What did you expect
me to learn from the FAQ?
> > does not imply an effeminate character, but I was trying to point out
> that
> > this particular character (Kenshin) _is_ rather feminine. His voice
when
> > not in hitokiri mode is somewhat feminine (only somewhat, I admit!), but
> > there are a _lot_ of shots where he looks rather girly. Particularly
> when he's
> > looking back affectionately or when in half-chibi mode (not full fledged
> > super-deformed). Couple this with everything else, like how sensitive
he
> is
> > and such, and you get a protagonist who is rather effeminate.
>
> None of which means he has to have a female voice actor--or a male actor
> with a feminine voice--in the dub version. He's still a guy.
Okay, I suppose. At the same time, his name needn't be Himura Kenshin,
it could have been Robert Jordan. He could have befriended Sally, who owns
the mysterious health club with one member, the little kid Bobo. With his
fighting friend (can't hide that, after all!) Murdock, they go around
defending justice in China. Or, why China? It could be a low-tech colonial
world somewhere in deep space!
The point is that the english dub needn't have preserved _anything._
Just compare Card Captor Sakura to Cardcaptors (the most recent example,
probably not the most extreme). I'm saying the show would have been better
if they have.
Also, your last sentence confuses me. He's still a guy? Are you
implying that an effeminate man is _not_ a guy?
> > This is all my opinion, of course. We can only guess as to what Watsuki
> > was really thinking when he made the character,
>
> We can do more then "guess"--he tells us in the manga. He was more or
less
> basing him on a real person who had similar characteristics.
Okay, so he was basing him on an historicaly effeminate man. Kawakami
Gensai, right?
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> news:0XZ78.290$n27....@news1.east.cox.net...
> > "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality"
> > <ro...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
> > news:XML78.100605$I8.20...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...
> >
> > > Yes, of course using a female seiyuu (good word!)
> >
> > It's the Japanese term for "voice actor".
> > You might want to read the FAQ, you seem a bit behind on the lingo...
>
> Which FAQ? I just checked the rec.arts.anime.misc FAQ (I _didn't_
find
> a simple rec.arts.anime FAQ) and there was _nothing_ in there (I did a
text
> search) about the terms shounen, shoujo, ai, or seiyuu. What did you
expect
> me to learn from the FAQ?
Damn... you're right. I thought the FAQ had a list of common terms. My
apologies.
Ummm.. What did they change, exactly? They gave him a more masculine voice
then you picture him having. That's not changing anything, that's just the
dub not meeting your expectations.
> Also, your last sentence confuses me. He's still a guy? Are you
> implying that an effeminate man is _not_ a guy?
No, not at all. What I meant was, he's still a guy, so there's no reason
he can't have a male voice in the dub.
> > > This is all my opinion, of course. We can only guess as to what
Watsuki
> > > was really thinking when he made the character,
> >
> > We can do more then "guess"--he tells us in the manga. He was more or
> > less basing him on a real person who had similar characteristics.
>
> Okay, so he was basing him on an historicaly effeminate man.
Yes.
> Kawakami Gensai, right?
Pardon?
XmagicalX
>
> characters and I really want to see if they do anything more with Saitoh. ^_^
>
knowledge (and dismay...)
> Oh, and, are you the same XmagicalX who is the fantastic fanfic writer? :D
>
XmagX
XmagicalX
> > Plus, his seiyuu, even though she is a woman, does not have a
> traditionally
> > feminine voice. I forget that she's a woman when I listen to Kenshin. She
> has a
> > very deep and sexy voice. And damn! Did you ever hear that war cry?!
>
> I admit that I lose myself in the story (it's such a good story, after
> all!) and accept that Kenshin's a man. Don't get me wrong, that voice is
> awesome! Especially that war cry (episode 40, a Killer Without Mercy, is a
> good example).
>
I've been of the opinion that this is at least one reason why they
gave him a female voice - I honestly don't think a guy could *scream*
quite like that. Sends chills up my spine. Think that's why it works
for me to have Son Goku's voice be a woman's too, for that power-up
cry.
I know the first time I saw DBZ I was like 'eh--he sounds like a
girl!' Since then I've become so accustomed to female seiyuus playing
guys that I don't even notice - excepting those few chars when it
takes me a little while to work out their sex...(ah, fond memories of
Escaflowne - 'Is this Dilandau a girl? It's a girl, right? No wait,
they said he...' And again, with Dilandau, beyond the other
considerations, I doubt any man could do that mad laughter - Takayama
Minami is out of this world!)
XmagX
Jules
> > Well, I'm going to nab a few of them, just because I'm in love with all of the
> > characters and I really want to see if they do anything more with Saitoh. ^_^
> >
> Not to spoil anything, but...he doesn't come back in the show, to my
> knowledge (and dismay...)
>
Damn! And damn again! >_< I'd get a thrill everytime he'd show up on the screen.
He's the only character that I can accept smoking, and hate to admit it, but he made
it look so good. ;) *hack hack cough*
>
> > Oh, and, are you the same XmagicalX who is the fantastic fanfic writer? :D
> >
> Yes, unless someone else's been using my name - and thank you! ^_^
>
> XmagX
No prob, I adored Promise of Nightmares! It's one of my favorites, and listed on my
fanfic recs site. Hope you don't mind. :)
jules
Jules
> sounding a little self-contradictory to you? It's like (I'll admit that
> this example is a little more extreme than what we're discussing, but
> extremes are often used to make a point obvious) saying that a man can dress
> up in women's clothing and not be a transvestite. But isn't that the very
> definition of transvestite?
Well, Ewan McGregor wore a dress in Shallow Grave (EEEE! ^_^ ) but I don't
suppose that this makes him a transvestite. Actually, my best friend wore my
skirt, and lipstick once, just for the hell of it, AND let me curl his hair, but
I never considered him to be a transvestite.
If you go by purely dictionary meanings, I suppose one could say that I hang
around a transvestite. However, the dictionary just doesn't so subtleties and
shades that deal with *transient* definitions, flowing meanings, and time frame.
While it's certainly a meaningful book (pun more or less intended,) in order for
it to be right abotu every wordshade, you'd have to publish a new addition
everyday. (<--- Lit Major nerd, studied the dictionary in class O_O Not
proud. ;) )
But that's somewhat straying from the topic. I have to disagree with saying that
a man who has some feminine qualities is by definition effeminate. I think tha
tall men have some traditionally feminine qualities, whatever they may be. I
know men with much higher, softer voices than Kenshin and I wouldn't dare to
call them efffeminate. I know men with soft and delicate features, and wouldn't
dare to call THEM effeminate.
Plus, you know, with how quickly the roles of men and women shift, for better or
for worse, we're really just relying on traditional definitions of male and
female. Just a few decades ago, long hair on men was scandalously effeminate,
and now... *sigh!* It just ain't so anymore. (Happily. ^_~ )
>
> www.webster.com (not the best dictionary in the world but, c'mon! Are
> we word snobs here?) defines "effeminate" as a man who _merely_ has feminine
> _qualities._ An effeminate man is not a man who's a girl! It's second
> definition is even more liberal.
> I admit that I lose myself in the story (it's such a good story, after
> all!) and accept that Kenshin's a man. Don't get me wrong, that voice is
> awesome! Especially that war cry (episode 40, a Killer Without Mercy, is a
> good example).
Oh my good lord... is that the one with Chou? ^____^ Spine tingling!
> May I be as bold to suggest that there is a surprising amount of
> resistance to this idea? I mean, people sound _offended_ by my suggestion.
>
It's not offensive, I think I just have a different feeling about the word than
you might. By the same token, one might say that Kaoru was masculine, in that
she had a lot of aggression, and she could fight, and not cook, etc.
Stereotypical "female" things, she wasn't good at, but had the strength usually
associated with a man. (I might take exception to that, only because I can't
cook either, and I'm physically strong as well, and I'd not like to think of
myself as masculine because of that. ^_~ ) I don't think that she was
masculine anymore than I found Kenshin effeminate.
Besides, it's anime. Most men (who are "good guys" anyway) have soft and
delicate features, even if they are supposed to be manly. I've often been told
that Duo Maxwell looks like me. O_O
Good points though!
later,
jules
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> Plus, you know, with how quickly the roles of men and women shift, for
better or
> for worse, we're really just relying on traditional definitions of male
and
> female. Just a few decades ago, long hair on men was scandalously
effeminate,
> and now... *sigh!* It just ain't so anymore. (Happily. ^_~ )
Yes, and just a few decades ago, it was stylin'.
Wait a minute... Damn, time goes fast...
Hey, is that to say you like guys with long hair?
> > I admit that I lose myself in the story (it's such a good story,
after
> > all!) and accept that Kenshin's a man. Don't get me wrong, that voice
is
> > awesome! Especially that war cry (episode 40, a Killer Without Mercy,
is a
> > good example).
>
> Oh my good lord... is that the one with Chou? ^____^ Spine tingling!
It is! A good scene, and somewhat spoiled by the new ending theme. If
you watch the ending theme video, you'll see cuts of that scene being used
in it before the episode happens! I'm the kind of guy who likes to know
_nothing_ about what he's watching. I like surprises. Sadly, it makes it
hard for me to determine if I want to watch anything 'cause, well, I'm not
supposed to know anything about it, right? That's why I rely on other
factors about a show. For instance, I will watch _anything_ made by the
Coen brothers, but now I'm _really_ straying off topic...
> > May I be as bold to suggest that there is a surprising amount of
> > resistance to this idea? I mean, people sound _offended_ by my
suggestion.
>
> It's not offensive, I think I just have a different feeling about the word
than
> you might. By the same token, one might say that Kaoru was masculine, in
that
> she had a lot of aggression, and she could fight, and not cook, etc.
> Stereotypical "female" things, she wasn't good at, but had the strength
usually
> associated with a man. (I might take exception to that, only because I
can't
> cook either, and I'm physically strong as well, and I'd not like to think
of
> myself as masculine because of that. ^_~ ) I don't think that she was
> masculine anymore than I found Kenshin effeminate.
She can fight, but I assure you that aggression is _not_ uncommon of
women. Then again, I suspect we have different views of the female gender.
Her character isn't really strong, her strength is merely exaggerated for
comedic effect. She may have some masculine qualities but when you look at
her... That's a chick! Just think of all the scenes where she's worried
about Kenshin (happens a lot) or when she's jealous over him.
> Besides, it's anime. Most men (who are "good guys" anyway) have soft and
> delicate features, even if they are supposed to be manly. I've often been
told
> that Duo Maxwell looks like me. O_O
Yeah, the Japanese sure like girly boys. I don't think they're
_supposed_ to be manly, but we're probably thinking of different characters.
I have no idea who Duo is...
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality
> "Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality" <ro...@localhost.localdomain>
> wrote in message news:AB488.106325$I8.21...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
> > "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> > news:0XZ78.290$n27....@news1.east.cox.net...
> > >
> actor
> > > with a feminine voice--in the dub version. He's still a guy.
> >
> > Okay, I suppose. At the same time, his name needn't be Himura
> Kenshin,
> > it could have been Robert Jordan. He could have befriended Sally, who
> owns
> > the mysterious health club with one member, the little kid Bobo. With
> his
> > fighting friend (can't hide that, after all!) Murdock, they go around
> > defending justice in China. Or, why China? It could be a low-tech
> colonial
> > world somewhere in deep space! The point is that the english dub
needn't
> > have preserved _anything._ Just compare Card Captor Sakura to
> > Cardcaptors (the most recent example, probably not the most extreme).
> I'm
> > saying the show would have been better if they have.
>
> Ummm.. What did they change, exactly? They gave him a more masculine
voice
> then you picture him having. That's not changing anything, that's just
the
> dub not meeting your expectations.
When I read this paragraph, what it says to me is "That's not changing
anything, that's just changing something." Yes, the dub does not meet my
expectations. I expected them to preserve the qualities of the characters
in the dub. For instance, they _did_ try to preserve his use of "gozaru."
I think their translation works well (there are those that don't, that there
are), but we all know that it wasn't literal. That is, it was quite a
liberty to do so. However, I think this liberty preserved the idea of the
character more than just removing it altogether.
> > Also, your last sentence confuses me. He's still a guy? Are you
> > implying that an effeminate man is _not_ a guy?
>
> No, not at all. What I meant was, he's still a guy, so there's no reason
> he can't have a male voice in the dub.
A male voice is fine. But why not a softer, gentler male voice. I was
_very_ surprised how masculine Kenshin's dubbed voice was when I first heard
it.
> > > > This is all my opinion, of course. We can only guess as to what
> Watsuki
> > > > was really thinking when he made the character,
> > >
> > > We can do more then "guess"--he tells us in the manga. He was more or
> > > less basing him on a real person who had similar characteristics.
> >
> > Okay, so he was basing him on an historicaly effeminate man.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Kawakami Gensai, right?
>
> Pardon?
Kawakami Gensai is the hitokiri that Kenshin's based on, according to
Watsuki (that liar!).
Mark L. Neidengard
Just Another Victim of the Ambient Morality <moc.re...@di.invalid> wrote:
>
>"Mark L. Neidengard" <mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> Yes "bishounen" is a real term - how long have you been in anime fandom?
>> While it does indeed literally mean "beautiful boy", it specifically refers
>> to precisely the group of high-style, fine-featured young men that help make
>> anime popular with the ladies. ^_^ The archetype's roots extend far back
>> into the Japanese collective aesthetic, at least as far back as seminal
>> bishounen Hikari Genji.
>
> I've been watching anime for a while now but only recently gotten into
>fandom.
> You have to be careful with these terms, they're not always symmetric
>(or so I'm told). Hav eyou ever heard of shoujo ai? But we all know what
>shounen ai is, right?
Actually, I have heard fans use the term "shoujo ai", although the distinction
between what is "shoujo ai" and what is "yuri" is every bit as pedantic and
largely insignificant as the distinction between "shounen ai" and "yaoi". In
any case, a modicum of Japanese knowledge makes a heretofore unknown(??) term
like "shoujo ai" easy enough to decipher. ^_^
>> You seem to be confounding "sensitive" and "polite" with "effeminate". Men
>> need not chew their food with their mouth open, smack up their females,
>> curse all the time, and have bulging muscles. Politeness, culturedness -
>> these are quantities that certainly _used_ to make the man in the popular
>> view. Kenshin's devotion, levelheadedness, dependability, quite apart from
>> his fearless prowess at arms, certainly demonstrate his manliness from my
>> POV.
>
> No, I'm _not_ confusing "sensitive" with "effeminate." You're only
>saying that because you're ignoring the _rest_ of my argument. What I was
>saying did not amount to "He's kind and polite, therefore he's a girl."
You have yet to produce any evidence of Kenshin's supposed "feminine" qualities
other than the fact that he's voiced by a female seiyuu. Kenshin's behavior
in non-hitokiri mode is, I repeat, not effeminate in any way. It is merely not
_macho_.
> On second glance, it looks like the only thing you remember is the
>_last_ thing I said. Hmm...
Unless you have anything new to add, I think we can conclude that this
discussion has reached its end.