Fushigi Yuugi--SUBTITLES DISCOUNTINUED
J.H.
I'm sorry folks this arguement is getting out of hand. There are issues
here that need to be worked out between specific parties involved. i
mean there have been more postings on this topic in the past few days
then there have been of GRIT... that is scary!!!
J.H.
Joe Perez
On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 11:26:45 -0800, "J.H." <mme...@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
wrote:
Yes very scary indeed. But I've found that it helps to get you in the
mood to read all these updated messages if you have the FY OST playing
in the background on your stereo :)
Joe Perez
Robert M Lowrey
Good news!
You can now visit http://www.netcom.com/~d_hogan/fshyuugi.html and get the
Fushigi Yuugi OVA #1 script!
Please encourage your local anime "distributors" to get this script if you
want to see the OVA!
If your local fansubber uses our script, please encourage them to share their
scripts with everyone.
Enjoy the show!
Thanks,
Todd and the rest of the Central Anime "staff" :)
Chris Johnson
In article <32D151...@bgnet.bgsu.edu>, "J.H." <mme...@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
wrote:
>
> I'm sorry folks this arguement is getting out of hand. There are issues
> here that need to be worked out between specific parties involved. i
> mean there have been more postings on this topic in the past few days
> then there have been of GRIT... that is scary!!!
Mmmm. Or, as I put it in another newsgroup a couple of days ago...
zfc: In article <na.8dcf9b4747.a...@argonet.co.uk>, Nick Cooke
zfc: <nick....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
zfc: > Isn't this a looooooong thread. Must be a record.
zfc: Not if you include the posty problems from last November that got
zfc: spread
zfc: over half a dozen different threads.
zfc: Of course, the worst one I got now is something about Fushigi Yuugi on
zfc: r.a.a.m which got up to 80 before I deleted it, and has since sprung
zfc: back to 28! And I haven't the foggiest notion what they are talking
zfc: about!
zfc: ... Is this yours? Your dog left it on my lawn ...
Hang on, that last bit was a tagline! Mads... ^_-;;
--
______
| /\ | /\/\ _ _| _ | _ Chris Johnson - mad...@argonet.co.uk
| //\\ | | |/-|/_|/_\|</-| url: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
|_/__\_| ------------------
... Quick! Close your mind!! Something might get in.
Ryan Mathews
In <32D151...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> "J.H." <mme...@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
writes:
>i mean there have been more postings on this topic in the past few
>days then there have been of GRIT... that is scary!!!
Hey, maybe we need another group for this thread. :-)
(Actually, I think this thread should have been on r.a.a.fandom from
the start.)
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com *** Have you voted in the ***
SnailMail: 401 Mortimer Drive #410 5TH ANNUAL R.A.A FAVORITES POLL?
Bedford OH, 44146 *** Vote now! ***
Robert M Lowrey
Here's the latest math lesson:
Here's the old one....
>Here's how I see the math going down. I'm not going to be polite about it,
either.
>If I'm wrong on this, please let me know.
>*** Math made easy ***
> 9.99 for 3 Hifi Tapes (our local price, yours may vary)
> 3.00 to mail three tapes in the US
> 1.50 for packaging
> ----
> $14.49 (did I get this right?)
>At $19.00 for three tapes, there is $4.51 unaccounted for.
===========================================
Here's a >real-world< update on tape prices from a previous post:
Chris Neville <ch...@wingate.edu> wrote in article
Don't act like his calculations are so far fetched. Buying in bulk
usually gets you a cheaper price per tape. I buy tapes from the
Produces Tape Service. This is a place many subtitlers and
distributers get their tapes from. For TDK Hi-Fi quality it is $2.60
per tape with a 50 tape order.
>
> Their S-VHS prices leave little room for any kind of profit. I've
> searched high and low for the best S-VHS price, and the going rate
> in my area for a single Fuji S-VHS is $9.99. That does not include
> tax. Tomodachi charges $33.00 for 3 (FUJI brand) S-VHS tapes. With
> Priority Mail shipping costs of $3.00, and tapes $10.00 a pop,
> please explain to me how Tomodach makes money off people who want
> S-VHS copies.
>
OK I will attempt to explain.. I get those tapes for $6.50 per tape.
That's $19.50 for 3 tapes +$.45 for 3 paper sleeves ($.15 per sleeve)+
$.75 for a bubble mailer + $3.00 shipping + labels ($.02 each (3 face
and 3 spine)) $.12 for a total of 23.82. That would leave $9.18 . I
guess an addition to that, if you were anal, you could factor out % of
ink and %of electricity. I hope this clears things up for you.
Chris N.
=================================================
Thanks for the info Chris!
OK. Here we go!
*** Math made easy II ***
7.80 for 3 VHS HiFi tapes (see above)
3.00 to mail three tapes in the US
1.50 for packaging
----
$12.30
At $19.00 for three VHS tapes, there is $6.70 unaccounted for.
Since several people seem to have S-VHS and keep asking about it, let's put
some figures to that:
19.50 for 3 S-VHS tapes (see above)
3.00 to mail three tapes in the US
1.32 for packaging/labels
----
$23.82
At $33.00 for three S-VHS tapes, there is $9.18 unaccounted for.
>"Hundreds" of tapes a month, says the guy in some other posts here. Say they
produce
>300 a month (10/day, not unreasonable if you have several VCRs and are doing
>tape-to-tape copies). This nets out to $451.00 a month, by my figuring.
Let's change this a bit...say 210 VHS tapes a month and 90 S-VHS tapes; still
300 total.
Let's see...that gives us:
210 / 3 = 70 * $6.70 = $469.00/month for VHS tapes
90 / 3 = 30 * $9.18 = $275.40/month for S-VHS tapes
That's $744.40/month.
That's $8,932.80 yearly. (!!!!)
>Multiply by 12 months of this, that's $5,412.00 a year, give or take a
little.
Hmmm....seems I was a bit to conservative on the first go-round.
>I'd say you're buying them more than a VCR or two, paying the electric bill,
etc,
>especially since this is untaxed, under the table money (assuming they don't
report
>it on their taxes) since I also assume they already have "real" jobs that pay
their
>bills in the first place. This money would be over and above that, which
would make
>it even more "gravy" as far as their budget is concerned.
I'd also say that EVEN IF you factor in nonsense crap like electricity, VCR
repair, etc, the final total is still VERY significant. (I'd personally like
to have $9K/year untaxed, under-the-table income, wouldn't you? :)
>Even if they only did half of this, it would still be a significant amount of
money.
Even more so with the revised figures.
>Suddenly, I begin to see why they might be upset with us. Seems we've cut
into their
>little "slush fund". I'd personally say this makes them borderline
bootleggers, in a
>sense, and it puts all that "I've been violated" crap spouted by Karen into a
>different perspective. "Violated" her pocketbook, it seems.
With the revised figures, this makes this an even more reasonable likelihood.
Ask yourself who's your "friend" now.
If I'm wrong in any of this, please let me know.
Robert L.
Ross Johnson
(snip)
> In terms of this whole situation, it was likely impolite of Central
> Anime to ask permission to put up the scripts, be declined, and then put
> up the scripts anyway. However, both parties will do what they need to
> do and the LD's for Fushigi Yuugi are still available. So, fans can
> still see the show.
>
> Personally, I hope that Central Anime apologizes to Tomodachi Anime for
> using their materials without permission. Otherwise, I believe other
> fansubbers and potential new fansubbers may choose not to distribute
> anything. I know that when I reach the skill level needed in Japanese
> to be able to translate, I would like to know that fansubbers work
> together and respect each others wishes. But, things move on.
(snip)
After reading this thread for the last several days and seeing the
charges and counter-charges and opinions fly, I have come to the same
conclusion. Given that Karen evidently put a request to CA in one of
the subtitled volumes that she was unhappy with their actions, they
should have gotten a clue that she felt strongly about this issue and
respected her wishes, AND started their own translations (as they said
they could easily do and could have easily done).
They should apologize, pull the scripts, and promise to not post any
more scripts publicly without the express persmission of the original
translation's owner(I also recall a post to Annapuma to pull off a
script from the Script Crypt a couple of weeks ago).
Given: We all know that this is a really grey area of the law. I have
not seen anyone quote actual statutes regarding the copyright rights of
translations, and it seems that since translation is more art than
science (I know that Tomodachi's MB translations strove to tranlate by
implied meaning rather than what was actually spoken, and that often
caused the translation to not match the actual verbal dialogue), a case
could be made that Karen really did have her intellectual porperty
rights violated by CA's taking of her work and modifying
(reverse-engineering?) her original translations.
Any legal scholars out there able to cite precedents?
In any event, this whole debacle should IMHO be used to set a precedence
regarding the use/distribution/permission of scripts and translations (I
hesitate to use a hackneyed cliche like "honor among thieves"....)
Any other flames/comments/observations?
Dwayne Gregory
Justin Neil Lapierre wrote:
>
> Personally, I hope that Central Anime apologizes to Tomodachi Anime for
> using their materials without permission. Otherwise, I believe other
> fansubbers and potential new fansubbers may choose not to distribute
> anything.
The irony of this situation is that in the not so far past people didn't
think twice about releasing their scripts. I remember one year when
everytime I accessed a board there was a new script. If I had purchased
laserdiscs to keep pace with the scripts I'd have been broke. Six years
ago, I waited for scripts to come out before I bought certain shows,
then as time went on I bought an ld as it came out, confident that a
script would surface shortly. It was almost an exponential increase.
Then, something happened and scripts weren't as plentiful. Now, most of
the groups I use to know aren't around anymore and it seems that most of
the new groups hoard scripts. The "new generation" of fansub groups
seem to have different priorities. That could have the affect of
causing friction between the new and the old. If the old are still
around and they were part of the "free script attitude" and perhaps feel
that they are in some ways responsible for the public attention anime
has, they could resent the fact that those who benefited from their
actions walk different paths. If one suscribes to the notion that anime
fans created an anime market outside of Japan, then one shouldn't have a
problem with the notion that script distribution was essential to that
process. That scripts are now hoarded by those who probably benefited
from free script distribution gives heartburn to some and the big flash
over FY is not unexpected.
Justin Neil Lapierre
Joe Perez wrote:
>
> On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 11:26:45 -0800, "J.H." <mme...@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm sorry folks this arguement is getting out of hand. There are issues
> >mean there have been more postings on this topic in the past few days
> >then there have been of GRIT... that is scary!!!
> >
>
> Yes very scary indeed. But I've found that it helps to get you in the
> mood to read all these updated messages if you have the FY OST playing
> in the background on your stereo :)
>
> Joe Perez
I'm sorry, but I just wanted to thank "Joe Perez" for this particular
comment! It was most appreciated as I'm drudgingly coding relatively
boring multimedia stuff!
In terms of this whole situation, it was likely impolite of Central
Anime to ask permission to put up the scripts, be declined, and then put
up the scripts anyway. However, both parties will do what they need to
do and the LD's for Fushigi Yuugi are still available. So, fans can
still see the show.
Personally, I hope that Central Anime apologizes to Tomodachi Anime for
using their materials without permission. Otherwise, I believe other
fansubbers and potential new fansubbers may choose not to distribute
anything. I know that when I reach the skill level needed in Japanese
to be able to translate, I would like to know that fansubbers work
together and respect each others wishes. But, things move on.
We'll see. But I loved this comment and went and got my OST (: !
Take care (: !
Justin Neil Lapierre
MIT Anime Treasurer
--
Justin Neil Lapierre, Multimedia Systems Designer
Center for Educational Computing Initiatives
E40-300, MIT, 1 Amherst St, Cambridge, MA 02139
W (617) 253-0153 H (617) 354-2068
Robert M Lowrey
Ross Johnson <rojo...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<32D5A7...@sprintmail.com>...
> (snip)
>
> In any event, this whole debacle should IMHO be used to set a precedence
> regarding the use/distribution/permission of scripts and translations (I
> hesitate to use a hackneyed cliche like "honor among thieves"....)
>
> Any other flames/comments/observations?
>
He who has the LD's, genlock, VCR and computer does what he likes. That's the
reality of the situation, plain and simple. Tomodachi has the stuff and does
what they want; we have the stuff and do what we want. You don't have to like
it. Since the legality of all this is in the grey area, you can discuss
"precedences", "wrong-doing", etc all you like and it won't make any
difference on either side. Tomodachi is doing what they want to do, and
Central Anime is doing what they want to do. Unless you want to bring lawyers
into it (unlikely + a waste of money), you can plot and plan and discuss until
you're blue in the face and it won't change a damn thing. Tomodachi is going
to have to continue to live with the fact that anytime they put out a tape
with a translation on it, it can be transcribed and used to subtitle by anyone
else. Central Anime is still going to make scripts generally available....as
to whether another "incident" like the FY one will occur in the future, no one
knows right now, but if we choose to do something like this in the future,
you'll have to live with it.
No one has really answered the question of this: What if Tomodachi decides to
do some new anime title in the future and Central Anime (or any fansubber)
wants to do it? Suppose Central Anime PAYS for a translation of the show and
does it independently AND RELEASES THE SCRIPTS. Is Karen going to freak over
this? Or will she "withhold" her versions until we're done? Would everyone
hammer us for releasing OUR OWN SCRIPTS under those circumstances if she
reacted like that? Just because some group is subbing a show should that make
ANY activities surrouding that show "off limits" to the rest of us??? If a
show is NOT off-limits, does it make *ANY* sense to have 2,3,4 or more
fan-subbers PAYING for translations and re-subbing the same thing over and
over?
I'll go slow:
-- I pay for a translation and sub a show and make the script available. You
take
the script and record the show for yourself and your club, etc. I'm
happy and
you're happy. I did the work, you get to benefit.
-- A few months later, you pay for a translation and sub another show and
make the script available. I get the script and
record a copy for my club, etc. You're happy
and I'm happy. You did the work and I got to benefit.
See how it works?
Before responding to this, please find and read my "Math Made Easy II" post
and think about it.
Robert L.
Ross Johnson
> > Any other flames/comments/observations?
> >
>
> He who has the LD's, genlock, VCR and computer does what he likes. That's the
> reality of the situation, plain and simple. Tomodachi has the stuff and does
> what they want; we have the stuff and do what we want. You don't have to like
> it.
(snip)
>
> No one has really answered the question of this: What if Tomodachi decides to
> do some new anime title in the future and Central Anime (or any fansubber)
> wants to do it? Suppose Central Anime PAYS for a translation of the show and
> does it independently AND RELEASES THE SCRIPTS. Is Karen going to freak over
> this?
Had you actually read Karen's letter or several of the posts that
covered this (I assume you haven't as it has been mentioned several
times), Karen had no objection to anyone doing their own version of FY,
as long as they did their -own- scripts, not plagiarizing hers and then
making a few cosmetic changes and calling it an improved product.
What she objected to was CA taking her scripts without her permission
and despite her protests. If CA or another group wants to create an
original script with their own translations, their own preferred font
(CA's main argument with Tomodachi's FY sub was that they did not like
the font, from the posts I've seen of CA defending themselves), and
their own cultural observations.
>Or will she "withhold" her versions until we're done? Would everyone
> hammer us for releasing OUR OWN SCRIPTS
Not if they were really your own, and not Karen's, which is what you
have been doing, albeit with a few cosmetic changes
>under those circumstances if she
> reacted like that? Just because some group is subbing a show should that make
> ANY activities surrouding that show "off limits" to the rest of us???
The show is not off-limits; her script is what she considers off-limits.
>If a
> show is NOT off-limits, does it make *ANY* sense to have 2,3,4 or more
> fan-subbers PAYING for translations and re-subbing the same thing over and
> over?
>
Given how many different ways many words, phrases, expressions, etc can
be translated, yes; translation is not a science, it is often art, with
many nuances. Japanese, with a noted
penchant for "between-the-lines" communication, is especially prone to
this. One translator may choose to concentrate on literal meanings (of
benefit to people trying to learn vocabulary and grammar), another on
the nuances of implied meaning behind the spoken word (more valuable to
people trying to develop a sense of the subtleties of the language and
culture). Also, the cultural notes may or may not be added by an
individual subber, what can also add/detract value depending on one's
taste.
> I'll go slow:
>
> -- I pay for a translation and sub a show and make the script available. You
> take
> the script and record the show for yourself and your club, etc. I'm
> happy and
> you're happy. I did the work, you get to benefit.
>
> -- A few months later, you pay for a translation and sub another show and
> make the script available. I get the script and
> record a copy for my club, etc. You're happy
> and I'm happy. You did the work and I got to benefit.
>
> See how it works?
>
> Before responding to this, please find and read my "Math Made Easy II" post
> and think about it.
>
> Robert L.
But what if you object to the ways others take your translation and
rework it? if they translate some things to your mind incorrectly or
offensively, and stick your name on the modified translation? (for
example, if you try hard to make translations/scripts that contain no
foul language, but the other group "punches up" your script with
colorful to tem/offensive to you scatologies?) Do you still justify
such actions, under such conditions?
Jinnai
In message <01bbfed5$d8867440$65535fcc@truncheon> - "Robert M Lowrey"
<ur...@southwind.net>10 Jan 1997 09:02:57 GMT writes:
:>
:>
:>
:>Ross Johnson <rojo...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
:><32D5A7...@sprintmail.com>...
:>> (snip)
:>>
:>> In any event, this whole debacle should IMHO be used to set a precedence
:>> regarding the use/distribution/permission of scripts and translations (I
:>> hesitate to use a hackneyed cliche like "honor among thieves"....)
:>> Any other flames/comments/observations?
:>>
:>
:>
:>He who has the LD's, genlock, VCR and computer does what he likes. That's the
:>reality of the situation, plain and simple. Tomodachi has the stuff and does
:>what they want; we have the stuff and do what we want. You don't have to like
:>"precedences", "wrong-doing", etc all you like and it won't make any
:>difference on either side. Tomodachi is doing what they want to do, and
:>Central Anime is doing what they want to do. Unless you want to bring lawyers
:>into it (unlikely + a waste of money), you can plot and plan and discuss until
:>you're blue in the face and it won't change a damn thing. Tomodachi is going
:>to have to continue to live with the fact that anytime they put out a tape
:>with a translation on it, it can be transcribed and used to subtitle by anyone
:>else. Central Anime is still going to make scripts generally available....as
One has to figure Tomadachi knew that anyone could take their work. I guess
they just thought that they had gone through all the trouble to make the
fansub there would be no reason for someone to take their work. I mean if you
don't like the fansub you could have suggested to Tomadachi ways to improve
it. I don't think that Karen would have minded a letter saying could you
please use a different font.
Basically I consider all Fansubbers along the lines of a modern day Robin
Hood. You steal from the rich (in this case the lucky people in Japan who got
to see this stuff on TV) and give to the poor (in this case the pooer people
who get crap like Suddenly Susan foilsted upon us by the networks).
So everything was pretty cool and I liked that analogy but then something
happened and you decided it was alright to steal from others in your band of
merry men.
And this is the analogy I cooked up to try to make it more clear what has
happened here.
Tomadachi (the baker) : I've cooked you up a bunch of cookies I hope you like
them
Central Anime (another baker): What the hell are these raisens? and look at
that ... (munch munch munch) ... well their ok but not great. Tell ya what
why don't you give me all your recipes and we'll cook up some really good
stuff
Tomadachi: I'm sorry I've put a lot of hard work into making these ... if you
want to make cookies you should probably use your own recipes because you do
not like mine.
Central Anime: Look just give us the recipes
Tomadachi: I worked on this for so long I just can't give them away
Central Anime: Fine I'll just take these cookies to the Lab and we will get
the recipes
And so they did... Tomadachi being disheartened that all his hard work had
been ridiculed and taken decided not to bake more cookies because he had no
other way to show his protest other than to not give Central more cookies and
new recipies to steal.
Of course the townspeople who had enjoyed Tomadachi's cookies grew angry.
Tomadachi tried to explain that he had worked so hard he couldn't bear for
someone to take his cookies. Central prodded the townspeople saying that it
was Tomadachi's fault they had stopped making cookies.
When the townspeople finished shouting at Tomadachi they turned to Central.
Townspeople: Please kind sirs Tomadachi no longer makes cookies
Central: Don't worry about it here you can have their recipes
Townspeople: That's very kind of you but we are not bakers and we would much
perfer the cookies
Central: Well we don't make cookies for townspeople. We bake only for our
friends. We Gave you Tomadachi's recipes what more do you want from us! Now
go back to Tomadachi and complain until they give you more cookies. After all
it is their fault.
The End?
Jinnai
--who will leave you to figure the moral and will ask your forgiveness for the
typo's but it's been a long day and I'm sure Central will just take this
message and re-edit it... fix the timing, change the font and take out the
raisens
Cathy Krusberg
In <32D6D0...@sprintmail.com> Ross Johnson
<rojo...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>Robert M Lowrey wrote:
>>If a show is NOT off-limits, does it make *ANY* sense to have
>>2,3,4 or more fan-subbers PAYING for translations and re-subbing
>>the same thing over and over?
>
>Given how many different ways many words, phrases, expressions, etc
>can be translated, yes; translation is not a science, it is often art,
>with many nuances. Japanese, with a noted penchant for
>"between-the-lines" communication, is especially prone to
>this. One translator may choose to concentrate on literal meanings
>(of benefit to people trying to learn vocabulary and grammar), another
>on the nuances of implied meaning behind the spoken word (more
>valuable to people trying to develop a sense of the subtleties of the
>language and culture). Also, the cultural notes may or may not be
>added by an individual subber, what can also add/detract value
>depending on one's taste.
I'm curious -- how many fans actually "comparison shop" for fansubs
the way this description implies? For that matter, how often do
fans have the opportunity to "comparison shop" among different
fansubbed versions of a title? Even if 3 or 4 versions exist, how
many distributors -- be they distributors as such or individuals
trading fansubs on an individual basis -- give a description of
the version of a fansub they've got? How many listings ever say,
"This is pretty much a literal translation, good for helping you
learn the language;" "This is a very idiomatic translation, it's
meant for mindless enjoyment;" "This is a translation by somebody
who had just done several lines of coke, and it shows" ^_-
My impression (and it is only an impression) is that most fans are
so blasted happy to get their hands on *any* fansub, they're not
going to piddle around asking nosy questions like "can I find a
better/more literal/more coke-headed translation?" unless the
translation is really bad (ungrammatical sentences, irrelevant
content). Fans seem to have more interest in fidelity of copies
than fidelity of translation in fansubs. If you want to improve
your fansub collection, you look for better-quality copies, not
better translations of your titles.
Personally, I'm always fascinated to see different translations of
a given anime, not that I have much time for comparing around <sigh>.
But to get back to the topic Messrs. Lowrey and Johnson were
discussing: how many fans are ever going to realilze that they
are benefiting (if they are) because subber X wasn't satisfied with
subber Y's translation and did his own? I'm not knocking
improved translations, or translations tailored for some particular
purpose. I just wonder how many people out there have a chance to
benefit from such efforts.
The Certifiable VHD Fanatic
Cathy Krusberg
Internet: ckb...@ix.netcom.com
James Marken
Robert M Lowrey wrote:
>
> No one has really answered the question of this: What if Tomodachi decides to
> do some new anime title in the future and Central Anime (or any fansubber)
> wants to do it?
Probably the same thing that's happening now, since you guys don't seem
to have changed your "screw you we'll do what we want" attitude.
> Suppose Central Anime PAYS for a translation of the show and
> does it independently AND RELEASES THE SCRIPTS. Is Karen going to freak over
> this?
Given what she said in the original post, I doubt that very much. If she
did, you'd see her support evaporate in a microsecond.
> Or will she "withhold" her versions until we're done?
I doubt that very much. If she did, you'd see her support evaporate in a
microsecond.
> Would everyone
> hammer us for releasing OUR OWN SCRIPTS under those circumstances if she
> reacted like that?
Nope, not under those circumstances. In fact, I'd almost certainly be
supportive of your duplicative effort (not that you'd care, I'm sure).
As another poster said further down this thread, it would be nice to
have different translations available, then you could pick the one you
liked best.
> Just because some group is subbing a show should that make
> ANY activities surrouding that show "off limits" to the rest of us???
Of course not. Just do your own work.
> If a
> show is NOT off-limits, does it make *ANY* sense to have 2,3,4 or more
> fan-subbers PAYING for translations and re-subbing the same thing over and
> over?
Why not? You yourself have said that having the Tomodachi script didn't
decrease the amount of time or effort that went in to your work, so what
advantage was there? Oh! I'm sorry, you did state the advantage didn't
you? PAYING for the translations. Yes, I guess it would save you money.
Well, sure...I guess not having enough money to buy something justifies
stealing it. Gee, I don't know why I didn't realize that sooner!
> I'll go slow:
>
> -- I pay for a translation and sub a show and make the script available. You
> take
> the script and record the show for yourself and your club, etc. I'm
> happy and
> you're happy. I did the work, you get to benefit.
>
> -- A few months later, you pay for a translation and sub another show and
> make the script available. I get the script and
> record a copy for my club, etc. You're happy
> and I'm happy. You did the work and I got to benefit.
>
> See how it works?
See how you've decided it should work? Why should those who don't share
that vision be forced to participate in it? (Which is not to say the
vision is without merit, because it isn't; it's simply to say that not
everyone will necesarilly share it.)
--
_____________________________________________________________
James Marken
jma...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jmarken/
"Unhampered by knowledge of earlier work, they were able
to repeat mistakes and look in the wrong places."
-Bernard Spolsky
_____________________________________________________________
Dwayne Gregory
Jinnai wrote:
>
> So everything was pretty cool and I liked that analogy but then something
> happened and you decided it was alright to steal from others in your band of
> merry men.
>
> And this is the analogy I cooked up to try to make it more clear what has
> happened here.
>
> Tomadachi (the baker) : I've cooked you up a bunch of cookies I hope you like
> them
>
> Central Anime (another baker): What the hell are these raisens? and look at
> that ... (munch munch munch) ... well their ok but not great. Tell ya what
> why don't you give me all your recipes and we'll cook up some really good
> stuff
>
> Tomadachi: I'm sorry I've put a lot of hard work into making these ... if you
> want to make cookies you should probably use your own recipes because you do
> not like mine.
>
> Central Anime: Look just give us the recipes
>
> Tomadachi: I worked on this for so long I just can't give them away
>
> Central Anime: Fine I'll just take these cookies to the Lab and we will get
> the recipes
I liked your analogy, but not in the way you think. You see, taste is
not copyrightable, which is why KFC guards their recipe so closely. So,
the above situation happens all the time and is *perfectly legal*. If I
ever discover KFC's recipes, I can use them and sell all the food I
want. KFC can get mad, but the law is not on their side. The same goes
for information. Knowledge is hard, if not impossible to copyright.
Once it is known, you can't prevent someone from using it, unless you
use the old, "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" way of
thinking.
Dwayne Gregory
James Marken wrote:
>
> Robert M Lowrey wrote:
> > I'll go slow:
> >
> > -- I pay for a translation and sub a show and make the script available. You
> > take
> > the script and record the show for yourself and your club, etc. I'm
> > happy and
> > you're happy. I did the work, you get to benefit.
> >
> > -- A few months later, you pay for a translation and sub another show and
> > make the script available. I get the script and
> > record a copy for my club, etc. You're happy
> > and I'm happy. You did the work and I got to benefit.
> >
> > See how it works?
>
> See how you've decided it should work? Why should those who don't share
> that vision be forced to participate in it? (Which is not to say the
> vision is without merit, because it isn't; it's simply to say that not
> everyone will necesarilly share it.)
To answer your question, yes, they should be forced to participate in
it. You don't play football with 13 people on your defense. You follow
the rules. The rules of ettiquette in anime fandom has always been
collected around the fundamental principle of "we are all in this
together." Because of that fundamental rule scripts were widely
distributed so that dublicate work would be kept to a minimum and anime
could be more widely distributed. Anime wouldn't have flourished with
isolated pockets of subtitlers doing only their own work, using only
their own scripts.
Now, we have a situation where a group (Tomodachi) is taking advantage
of the efforts of those pioneers, taking advantage of the earlier work
in creating the environment that now exists and allows Tomodachi to
widely distribute their tapes, and at the same time is spitting at the
philosophy that helped create the environment that they are exploiting.
People talk about honor and respect to defend Tomodachi. But honor and
respect works both ways. Tomodachi is taking advantage the contributions
of thousands of other people over the last decade or more, and is now
trying to change the rules.
Ferdinand A. Pelayo
Cathy Krusberg (ckb...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
> Ross Johnson <rojo...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>>Robert M Lowrey wrote:
>>> If a show is NOT off-limits, does it make *ANY* sense to have
>>>2,3,4 or more fan-subbers PAYING for translations and re-subbing
>>>the same thing over and over?
>> Given how many different ways many words, phrases, expressions, etc
>>can be translated, yes; translation is not a science, it is often art,
>>with many nuances. Japanese, with a noted penchant for
>>"between-the-lines" communication, is especially prone to
>>this. One translator may choose to concentrate on literal meanings
>>(of benefit to people trying to learn vocabulary and grammar), another
>>on the nuances of implied meaning behind the spoken word (more
>>valuable to people trying to develop a sense of the subtleties of the
>>language and culture). Also, the cultural notes may or may not be
>>added by an individual subber, what can also add/detract value
>>depending on one's taste.
>
> I'm curious -- how many fans actually "comparison shop" for fansubs
> the way this description implies? For that matter, how often do
> fans have the opportunity to "comparison shop" among different
> fansubbed versions of a title? Even if 3 or 4 versions exist, how
We seem to be beyond the days where the only elements of fansub
satisfaction were "I can see it, hear it, read it". There are enough
groups out there to offer a variety of scripts and sub jobs on the same
big-name or popular titles. So I'd have to say at least half of fansub
collectors can afford to, and will, be picky with multiple versions.
I'm the kind of person who helps to promote titles by showing people
the versions (fansub or commercial) with the subtitle-scripts that best
represent what's going on. For me, having multiple versions ain't a
problem or a wasted effort IF any previous versions leave me anything
*significant* to desire for a new one.
And as this relates to FY: Karen's styled Swiss ain't the nicest font
to read, but neither I nor anyone I know who's seen it minds at all.
Although I'd still be interested in a version that looks different and
easier to read, I don't think the desire is worth all this stupid mess.
--
Anime Underground
Ferdinand Pelayo
King of Fighters '96 quote of the day:
"I will break anyone who stands in my way towards world conquest." - Geese
Milt Hathaway
Dwayne Gregory wrote:
> To answer your question, yes, they should be forced to participate in
> it. You don't play football with 13 people on your defense. You follow
> the rules. The rules of ettiquette in anime fandom has always been
> collected around the fundamental principle of "we are all in this
> together."
One of real life's 'rules of ettiquette' that I'm familiar with is: If
someone asks you not to do something, don't do it against their wishes.
> Now, we have a situation where a group (Tomodachi) is taking advantage
> of the efforts of those pioneers, taking advantage of the earlier work
> in creating the environment that now exists and allows Tomodachi to
> widely distribute their tapes, and at the same time is spitting at the
> philosophy that helped create the environment that they are
> exploiting.
That's certainly an interesting angle. So they're taking advantage of:
Those at Ampex who invented helical-scan recording; The United States
Postal Service; The JACOSub programmers; Minnesota Mining and
Manufacturing; Thomas Edison; etc. etc. etc.
They only thing I see them exploiting is the work of the Japanese
animators (if you want to call it exploiting), and the resources of the
Internet. But since ALL of us are doing that, I don't see how that
factors in.
> Tomodachi is taking advantage the contributions
> of thousands of other people over the last decade or more, and is now
> trying to change the rules.
Thousands? And they're the only ones to want to be the first to present
a completed work to the community?
I don't see how they are changing the rules. They never said they didn't
want anyone else to do FY. They just wanted them to do their own work.
Or at least wait until they were finished.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Milt Hathaway | KOR - Tenchi Muyo! - Sailormoon |
| kyo...@basinlink.com | Oldfield - Miyazaki - Zappa - Takahashi |
| Midland, Texas |---------------------------------------------|
| 89 Wineberry GoldWing |My inferiority complex is smaller than yours!|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Mathews
In <32D917...@basinlink.com> Milt Hathaway <kyo...@basinlink.com>
writes:
>One of real life's 'rules of ettiquette' that I'm familiar with is: If
>someone asks you not to do something, don't do it against their
>wishes.
Well, Milt, as the saying goes, "As you sow, so shall you reap".
You're right, CA(K) did something rude to Tomodachi. But since
Tomodachi had been rude to CA(K) first, they have no right to complain.
Wes Taylor
Dwayne Gregory wrote:
>James Marken wrote:
>>
>> See how you've decided it should work? Why should those who don't share
>> that vision be forced to participate in it? (Which is not to say the
>> vision is without merit, because it isn't; it's simply to say that not
>> everyone will necesarilly share it.)
>
>it. You don't play football with 13 people on your defense. You follow
>the rules. The rules of ettiquette in anime fandom has always been
>collected around the fundamental principle of "we are all in this
>distributed so that dublicate work would be kept to a minimum and anime
>could be more widely distributed. Anime wouldn't have flourished with
>isolated pockets of subtitlers doing only their own work, using only
>their own scripts.
Dwayne, the name for the system you are advocating is slavery or, at best,
fascism. Try to think this through and apply it to something other than
fansubs. You want Tomodaci to do the work, pay out for a translation ( a
related but SEPERATE property than the origional script) and then hand it over
because of rules Tomodachi NEVER afreed to. You have removed their freedom of
choice. Personally, if that were done to me, I'd be pusuing every course of
retaliation I could find, with the goal of driving the culprits out of the
hobby. Tomadachi has been very calm and, I believe foolishly, polite.
Even for a hobby, think about the priciples you are acting on. The ones you
are using are truly sickening and slimey. No one should be forced to act in a
way contrary to his or her wishes unless they are causing another harm.
(deprivving you of the product of their labor causes you no harm).
Wes Taylor
Mike Laughead
Not too long ago Central Anime was just another fan-subbing company to me.
Now they are something I really REALLY dislike.
I am a fan of anime (I don't know if I am a normal one.) But I am one that
doesn't have the money to buy a laserdisc player, or to buy the laserdiscs.
I am not sure if Tomadachi is justified in stopping the distribution of
Fushigi Yuugi, but I know that they were nice enough to do it.
Now CA has done something that will benefit SOME fans of Fushigi Yuugi, the
ones that have laserdisc players and have paid the God awful amount of
money for the laserdiscs.
The problem is, is that the other fans, the ones that only have VCRs, can't
get Fushigi Yuugi now. They can read the scripts, but where can they get
the tapes?
Maybe I am biased because I don't have a laserdisc player, but I feel like
I am getting screwed over. I start to watch a series, and I start to enjoy
it. Now I find out the only way I get to enjoy it is if I buy the
laserdiscs, ask a friend of mine if I can use his laserdisc player, and
read a script in my hand while I try to keep up with what is going on on
the screen.
You know Central Anime, if people are SO desperate to get the scripts of
Fushigi Yuugi, and the translations you were getting were from the video
tapes, why not have them buy the tapes distributed by Tomadachi (or one of
it's distributors)? That way, if they really wanted to watch the better
quality of the laserdisc, then they could write the scripts down for
themselves and read it as they watched the laserdisc.
Instead, I am getting screwed out of a good anime, and a few fans are
benefiting. I hope that you distribute the series, even on a small scale,
that way I can get it from a subtitler (Tomadachi) that may not have
perfect translations, but can at least get me the anime that I want to
watch.
Mike (Dende)
laug...@muscanet.com
http://www.muscanet.com/~laughead (Dragonball Freaks Anonymous)
d_h...@ix.netcom.com
Mike, you are only getting screwed by Tomodachi. They CHOSE to stop.
They could have ignored us, but they didn't.
And a point that has been pointed out by others and you in a way:
You don't own the laser discs and therefore have no right to have a
bootlegged copy. Tomodachi was doing you a favor, they had absolutely
obligation to release anything to anyone. And they can chose to quit
doing it at any time they wish and you abd others have no say in the
matter.
You may not like us, but we have just made it possible for you to
contact ANY distributor with the LD's and get a copy. You'll just jave
to wait until we or someone else gets around to finishing the series.
After we finish the series, you can ask Karen for her already completed
versions which she is withholding.
Sorry, but I can't tell Tomodachi to start up again.
Todd
From Dave's e-mail
William Bardwell
In article <01bc0191$b2a6e8e0$e1a3d9cd@abcjones>,
Mike Laughead <laug...@muscanet.com> wrote:
[...he is pissed at Central Anime...]
>I am a fan of anime (I don't know if I am a normal one.) But I am one that
>doesn't have the money to buy a laserdisc player, or to buy the laserdiscs.
>Now CA has done something that will benefit SOME fans of Fushigi Yuugi, the
>ones that have laserdisc players and have paid the God awful amount of
>money for the laserdiscs.
>
>The problem is, is that the other fans, the ones that only have VCRs, can't
>get Fushigi Yuugi now. They can read the scripts, but where can they get
>the tapes?
There is an important difference, fans who buy the original laser discs, or
domestic releases have gotten legal copies of stuff, and have made sure that
the creators of the material have gotten paid. People who don't havn't
given the creators money for their work. (I am not totally innocent, but
I sure try...)
[...complaining that Central Anime should do contortions to fulfil Tomodachi's
requirements about their scripts...]
I think Tomodachi was whining, plain and simple...perhaps CA should have
respected that, but given the lack of moral basis for T's whining (and
CA's apparent ignorance of this restriction T wanted...) I don't blame CA
for what they did, and I beleive that CA's policy of distributing scripts
has a certain moral mole hill due to it pushing people to buy the LDs...
--
William Bardwell
wbar...@platsol.com
Ken Arromdee
"Mike Laughead" <laug...@muscanet.com> wrote:
>Now CA has done something that will benefit SOME fans of Fushigi Yuugi, the
>ones that have laserdisc players and have paid the God awful amount of
>money for the laserdiscs.
... or fans who don't have LDs, but get subtitled copies from people who do
have LDs and use the scripts.
... or, for that matter, fans who just get unsubtitled copies of Fushigi
Yuugi on videotape.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@randomc.com, karr...@nyx.nyx.net,
http://www.randomc.com/~arromdee)
"2000 members of the vegetable kingdom and I have to work with _tomatoes_!"
Dwayne Gregory
Mike Laughead wrote:
> Maybe I am biased because I don't have a laserdisc player, but I feel like
> I am getting screwed over. I start to watch a series, and I start to enjoy
> it. Now I find out the only way I get to enjoy it is if I buy the
> laserdiscs, ask a friend of mine if I can use his laserdisc player, and
> read a script in my hand while I try to keep up with what is going on on
> the screen.
This whole thread I've stayed away from Tomodachi for the simple reason
that while I think their actions are contrary that what I feel is
correct, it is their choice and I accept that. You have to accept
people's choices. I may not agree with them, but I accept them. It is
the attitude above that I rail against and have more than a little
problem with. "Screwed over"? How can someone feel screwed just
because he is not getting tapes that he never had a right to? You feel
screwed because you can no longer get stolen property? Think about what
you are saying.
>
> You know Central Anime, if people are SO desperate to get the scripts of
> Fushigi Yuugi, and the translations you were getting were from the video
> tapes, why not have them buy the tapes distributed by Tomadachi (or one of
> it's distributors)? That way, if they really wanted to watch the better
> quality of the laserdisc, then they could write the scripts down for
> themselves and read it as they watched the laserdisc.
So you are advocating that a hundred people do the same duplicate work
that could be left to one person just to make one person happy? That's
completely opposite to the theory of free script distribution. The fact
that CA distributes scripts means that I don't have to waste my time
working on them. Because I don't waste my time working on them, I can
spend my time working on other scripts that would benefit fandom. The
time wasted on duplication limits the variety of anime that is available
to the average fan.
Dwayne Gregory
Wes Taylor wrote:
> Dwayne Gregory wrote:
>
> Dwayne, the name for the system you are advocating is slavery or, at best,
> fascism. Try to think this through and apply it to something other than
> fansubs. You want Tomodaci to do the work, pay out for a translation ( a
> related but SEPERATE property than the origional script) and then hand it over
> because of rules Tomodachi NEVER afreed to. You have removed their freedom of
> choice. Personally, if that were done to me, I'd be pusuing every course of
> retaliation I could find, with the goal of driving the culprits out of the
> hobby. Tomadachi has been very calm and, I believe foolishly, polite.
I knew my stand would stir some controversy, because it is a fine
distinction, and I hesitated to bring it up because I'm not sure most of
the guys on this net would have the mental dexterity to comprehend it.
That's a flame, I know, but some people can be so dense. It is
difficult to get people to understand that a person is more than just
himself and he owes a lot to people around them. A friend of mine still
copies lot of anime for people. I ask him, if fans are such shits like
you say they are, why do you still put so much of your personal time
into this? His answer is simply that when he was first starting out
into anime, people copied for him and he is obligated by honor to return
the favor. In the same way, fandom grew and survived because people
freely gave their scripts out. Karen should not make such a fuss about
returning the favor.
Let me ask you this. Where would Tomodachi be if there weren't other
fansubbers? Would she have a subtitle program to use if she was the
only subtitler? Would she have rec.arts.anime to advertise in if she
was the only fansubber? Would there be any customers if no one knew
about anime? Would she know about anime at all if it wasn't for other
people subtitling/copying years before Tomodachi was born?
The answers to all these questions is a negative. I'm not advocating
slavery. I'm advocating her acknowleding what has been done FOR her and
why she should not regret paying people back. Karen didn't create anime
fandom in America, but she is taking advantage of all the work done by
others necessary for her to be doing what she is doing. People have
literally donated years of their life to further anime visability
outside of Japan, for absolutely no personal benefit. Karen is taking
advantage of all that work that had to be done for her to be where she
is, and she is spurning those who were there before her.
Fushigi Yuugi and Marmalade Boy are not solely the work of Karen. It
took years of work by a lot of people to get to the point where a show
like Fushigi Yuugi could be subtitled, advertised and widely
distributed. I spent years promoting anime. I released scripts to over
1500 minutes worth of anime. I copied an average of a hundred tapes a
month for hundreds of people over just as long if not a longer period
than Karen did and I put out the extra effort to put out 1st gen
subtitles, not 3rd gen. I just sent funds to a translator in England to
get started on a project that I'll release the scripts to as soon as I
get them. Everything Karen is doing, I did, with the exception that I
definitely never tried to make any money off of it. It is not slavery
to suggest that maybe she should act like one of the boys. If everyone
had acted six years ago like she is doing now, we wouldn't be having
this argument, because anime would have remained an underground fad of
isolated pockets of subtitlers.
>
> Even for a hobby, think about the priciples you are acting on. The ones you
> are using are truly sickening and slimey. No one should be forced to act in a
> way contrary to his or her wishes unless they are causing another harm.
> (deprivving you of the product of their labor causes you no harm).
Wrong. Let's use football as an example to put it in perspective.
Karen is like a running back who struck it big but forgot that there are
10 other people on the team, without whom she would be nothing. She
forgot about the coaches who taught her, the trainers who got her into
shape, the linemen who blocked for her and the football greats that
worked for virtually nothing for years just because they loved the game
so that she could reap the benefits of a rich salary and public
acknowlegment. Some football players, when they strike it big, pay back
the scholarship the school gave them, and give gifts to their linemen,
acknowledging that without their help, they would be nothing.
It is not sick or slimey to say that someone should pay back what has
been done for them in the manner that it was done for them. Like my
friend, I copied for years because people had done so for me. I
subtitled for people because someone had subtitled for me. I gave out
all the scripts I've ever worked on and will continue to do so, because
people gave me scripts when I needed them. I'd feel like an ingrate if
I withheld any scripts. I'm no harder on Tomodachi than I am on myself.
Bill Switzer
> > > Any other flames/comments/observations?
> > >
> >
> > He who has the LD's, genlock, VCR and computer does what he likes. That's the
> > reality of the situation, plain and simple. Tomodachi has the stuff and does
> > what they want; we have the stuff and do what we want. You don't have to like
> > it.
>
> >
> > No one has really answered the question of this: What if Tomodachi decides to
> > do some new anime title in the future and Central Anime (or any fansubber)
> > does it independently AND RELEASES THE SCRIPTS. Is Karen going to freak over
> > this?
> covered this (I assume you haven't as it has been mentioned several
> times), Karen had no objection to anyone doing their own version of FY,
> as long as they did their -own- scripts, not plagiarizing hers and then
> making a few cosmetic changes and calling it an improved product.
> What she objected to was CA taking her scripts without her permission
> and despite her protests. If CA or another group wants to create an
> original script with their own translations, their own preferred font
> (CA's main argument with Tomodachi's FY sub was that they did not like
> the font, from the posts I've seen of CA defending themselves), and
> their own cultural observations.
>
> > hammer us for releasing OUR OWN SCRIPTS
>
> have been doing, albeit with a few cosmetic changes
>
> > ANY activities surrouding that show "off limits" to the rest of us???
>
>
Yes And If That Where True Then Bruce Would Be Having A Fit About Arctic
Doing Nurse Angle! Which There Not! Lke You Were Telling Them This Is
About Plaugerism<SP> And A Betrayal Of Trust!
> >If a
> > show is NOT off-limits, does it make *ANY* sense to have 2,3,4 or more
> > fan-subbers PAYING for translations and re-subbing the same thing over and
> > over?
> >
>
> Given how many different ways many words, phrases, expressions, etc can
> be translated, yes; translation is not a science, it is often art, with
> many nuances. Japanese, with a noted
> penchant for "between-the-lines" communication, is especially prone to
> this. One translator may choose to concentrate on literal meanings (of
> benefit to people trying to learn vocabulary and grammar), another on
> the nuances of implied meaning behind the spoken word (more valuable to
> people trying to develop a sense of the subtleties of the language and
> culture). Also, the cultural notes may or may not be added by an
> individual subber, what can also add/detract value depending on one's
> taste.
>
>
> > I'll go slow:
> >
> > -- I pay for a translation and sub a show and make the script available. You
> > take
> > the script and record the show for yourself and your club, etc. I'm
> > happy and
> > you're happy. I did the work, you get to benefit.
> >
> > -- A few months later, you pay for a translation and sub another show and
> > make the script available. I get the script and
> > record a copy for my club, etc. You're happy
> > and I'm happy. You did the work and I got to benefit.
> >
> > See how it works?
> >
> > Before responding to this, please find and read my "Math Made Easy II" post
> > and think about it.
> >
> > Robert L.
>
> But what if you object to the ways others take your translation and
> rework it? if they translate some things to your mind incorrectly or
> offensively, and stick your name on the modified translation? (for
Matt Seitz
>And this is the analogy I cooked up to try to make it more clear what has
>happened here.
Excellent analogy. Except I just realized one flaw. Your analogy doesn't take
into account that Tomodachi stole the recepie in the first place. Maybe a
better analogy would be:
Japanese creators: Invented cookie and sold cookies
Tomodachi: Took Japanese recipie, added rasins, and started distributing their
own cookies to people who wanted thier cookies with raisins.
Central: Took Tomodachi's recipie, added walnuts, reduced raisins, and
distributed recipie. Also started making cookies.
Tomodachi's compaint: Central stole our raisin idea!
Other than that, I think the analogy was great!
Jinnai
In message <5bel56$j...@kane.ico.net> - mse...@meridian-data.com (Matt
Seitz)Tue, 14 Jan 97 00:48:12 GMT writes:
:>
:>In article <5b6gal$i...@news3.texas.net>, jin...@texas.net wrote:
:>
:>>And this is the analogy I cooked up to try to make it more clear what has
:>>happened here.
:>
:>Excellent analogy. Except I just realized one flaw. Your analogy doesn't take
:>into account that Tomodachi stole the recepie in the first place. Maybe a
:>better analogy would be:
Actually I did consider putting this in the story ... I was going to add a
line about Tomadachi "borrowing" the ingredients from someone
but I couldn't really come up with a good someone as far as the story goes and
it detracted from what the story was actually about.
Basically I was trying to point out the how silly the logic was about why they
were entitled to the scripts
Centrals logic seems to go something like this
Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y) Scripts
now don't you think Central might be upset if we use that same logic the other
way around
Because Central gives us access to (X) Scripts we are entitled to (Y) Fansubs
Lets get real central would be pissed! It would be a how dare you demand that
we distribute fansubs we never said we would do that!
You know kind of like Tomadachi never said they would distribute scripts.
But if you want to take Centrals logic and try to apply it to other things
here are some fun examples
Because Tomadachi gave us access to Cookies we are entitled to thier Recipes
Because Tomadachi's web page had a picture we were given access to we are
entitled to the Artbook, Photo-album or whatever that photo came from.
Because Jinnai gave us access to this message we are entitled to the computer
it was created on.
You should be able to pick up how the underlying logic is flawed.
Central has tried to cover the logic flaw in a few ways
1. We did it because we were improving the product.
Yup and you can use that logic to break into someones house to steal the
artbook because you are going to use it to make better scans that will benefit
everyone because they will be so much more clear.
2. We were making it more accessable to everyone
Yup and you can probably count on one hand the number of people in the English
speaking world who have those FY laserdisks can can benefit from those scripts
by reading along to the laserdisk. You see those are the only people who
could benefit... the rest of us benefitted from the Fansubs... even if another
group took those scripts and fansubbed them then we haven't really gained
anything over what we had before.
3. We were entitled because other groups have released their scripts
Don't know how many of you read this one but yes they have used this. As if
becoming a fansubber comes with an implied contract that you must release your
scripts. However I haven't seen this as actually the case but I'm sure if
they haven't released the scripts Central will be more than happy to release
them for the various groups that haven't understood and followed through with
their part of this implied contract.
I would recommend Central start alphabetically because Artic has done a lot of
fansubs so if they are holding out of scripts then it's really time to cough
them up. Who knows by the time they finish getting through the alphabet and
get down to Techno-Girls maybe Tomadachi will have had a change of heart and
will be handing out scripts with any fansub request.
Jinnai
--and no Central isn't getting my computer! Even if they are entitled!
Jinnai
In message <5bf3lo$4...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> - math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan
Mathews)14 Jan 1997 04:56:24 GMT writes:
:>
:>In <5beopl$n...@news3.texas.net> jin...@texas.net (Jinnai) writes:
:>>
:>>In message <5bel56$j...@kane.ico.net> - mse...@meridian-data.com (Matt
:>>Seitz)Tue, 14 Jan 97 00:48:12 GMT writes:
:>>:>Excellent analogy. Except I just realized one flaw. Your analogy
:>>:>doesn't take into account that Tomodachi stole the recepie in the
:>>:>first place.
:>>Actually I did consider putting this in the story ... I was going to
:>>add a line about Tomadachi "borrowing" the ingredients from someone
:>"Borrowing" under cover of darkness with no intent to return, I
:>suppose.
Actually that's why it is in quotes because we know that that is how they
would say it...
But if you had been reading the thread you would have seen the messages about
the fact that Karen contacts the companies that owns the rights and explains
what she is going doing... She tells them she will stop if they have any
problems with their products being used in such a way. Apparently they
haven't had any real problem. Maybe they know that they are getting access to
a new market... Or maybe they just can't read English ^_^
:>
:>>Centrals logic seems to go something like this
:>>
:>>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y)
:>>Scripts
:>
:>Um, you are entitled. After all, there's a copy included on every
Um no not actually... you see they wanted the scripts... timing codes... you
can try to work out the timing codes with a stop watch... but you are not
entitled to the pieces of paper the translation was done on... nor are you
entitled to the Jasco? timing file.
But if you think you are entitled then I will find it fasinating to see how
you try to explain it to the judge when you are charged with breaking and
entering to get what you are "entitled to"
:>tape. Am I supposed to believe that I'm not allowed to take the script
:>off the tape and redistribute it? That's copyright protection,
not if you respect the wishes of the person who spent a lot of time putting it
there. But since you believe you are entitled to anything then one can't
really expect you would respect the wishes of the person who made that
translation possible.
:>something that an
:>organization that violates copyrights in mass quantities has no right
:>to request.
I think there is a bit more that Central wanted like the timing codes.
:>
:>>now don't you think Central might be upset if we use that same logic
:>>the other way around
:>>
:>>Because Central gives us access to (X) Scripts we are entitled to (Y)
:>>Fansubs
:>
:>How many times does this have to be explained! Central has never
:>*claimed* to be a fansub distributor! But Tomodachi *does* claim to be
:>a translating organization, the same as Central! They are working
:>towards the same goal, so why the unwillingness to cooperate?
Lets see... looking at their web page they say nothing about distributing
scripts. They did not therefore enter any sort of a contract to distribute
scripts.
Why are they unwilling to cooperate?
1. They believe releasing scripts promotes piracy because anyone can now make
fansubs that don't have those questionable notes that say "FANSUBBED FOR FANS
BY FANS" "NOT FOR SALE"
Does it actually protect against piracy? probably not but if Tomadachi
believes it does then they have a reason for their actions
2. They believe that each individual should do his own work. Basically if
you take a Tomadachi script ... no matter how you play with it your still
working off of Karen's and Mastomo's spin on things... You can't create
anything new. They don't distribute scripts so people will create new visions
of what the anime is about... visions free of Karen's and Mastomo's ideas
You don't have to believe this but as long as Tomadachi believes this then
they have a reason for not behaving exactly like Central.
Tomadachi has given many of us a great deal of joy. Is it really so very hard
to accept that their point of view might be different from yours? And
couldn't you in return for the many hours of joy they have given you couldn't
you respect thier wishs?
:>--
:> ---------- Ryan Mathews
:>
:>Email: math...@ix.netcom.com *** Have you voted in the ***
:>SnailMail: 401 Mortimer Drive #410 5TH ANNUAL R.A.A FAVORITES POLL?
:> Bedford OH, 44146 *** Vote now! ***
Jinnai
Ryan Mathews
In <5bcdda$dbl$1...@nadine.teleport.com> elw...@teleport.com (Wes Taylor)
writes:
>Dwayne, the name for the system you are advocating is slavery or, at
>best, fascism.
Sigh. The idea that fans should feel an obligation to work with each
other instead of against each other, facism?
>Try to think this through and apply it to something other than
>fansubs.
It never ceases to amaze me how many analogies there have been in this
thread. I've been guilty of writing some of them myself. The fact is,
though, that the fansubbing world doesn't lend itself to analogies very
well. Fansubbing is not a business, is not like writing original
fiction. It's *supposed* to be fans helping fans. So when one group
of fans asks another for help, and is told to take a long walk off a
short pier, it sort of goes against the whole concept.
Ryan Mathews
In <01bc0191$b2a6e8e0$e1a3d9cd@abcjones> "Mike Laughead"
<laug...@muscanet.com> writes:
>
>The problem is, is that the other fans, the ones that only have VCRs,
>can't get Fushigi Yuugi now. They can read the scripts, but where can
>they get the tapes?
>
>like I am getting screwed over.
You're getting screwed over by Tomodachi. Nothing Central Anime did
*forced* them to stop distributing. Blame CA(K) for doing something of
which you disapprove. Call them thieves, if you will. But don't blame
them for your lack of FUSHIGI YUUGI tapes. That responsibility is
Tomodachi's, and theirs alone.
Enrique Conty
In article <5bf32k$s...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan Mathews) writes:
>Fansubbing is not a business, is not like writing original fiction.
>It's *supposed* to be fans helping fans.
There's what it should be, then there's what it is.
I realized a few years back that many fansubbers do their thing because
of ego or greed first, and because of their love of the artform second.
Thus the hoarding and stealing, the bitching about who wrote the better
scripts, etc, etc, etc.
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Come to Anime Central, the Midwest's Best Anime Convention!
April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Rosemont, IL. (A suburb of Chicago)
Visit our website at http://www.mcs.net/~docangst/3w/ac/
Ryan Mathews
In <5beopl$n...@news3.texas.net> jin...@texas.net (Jinnai) writes:
>
>In message <5bel56$j...@kane.ico.net> - mse...@meridian-data.com (Matt
>Seitz)Tue, 14 Jan 97 00:48:12 GMT writes:
>:>Excellent analogy. Except I just realized one flaw. Your analogy
>:>doesn't take into account that Tomodachi stole the recepie in the
>:>first place.
>
>Actually I did consider putting this in the story ... I was going to
>add a line about Tomadachi "borrowing" the ingredients from someone
"Borrowing" under cover of darkness with no intent to return, I
suppose.
>Centrals logic seems to go something like this
>
>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y)
>Scripts
Um, you are entitled. After all, there's a copy included on every
tape. Am I supposed to believe that I'm not allowed to take the script
off the tape and redistribute it? That's copyright protection,
something that an
organization that violates copyrights in mass quantities has no right
to request.
>now don't you think Central might be upset if we use that same logic
>the other way around
>
>Because Central gives us access to (X) Scripts we are entitled to (Y)
>Fansubs
How many times does this have to be explained! Central has never
*claimed* to be a fansub distributor! But Tomodachi *does* claim to be
a translating organization, the same as Central! They are working
towards the same goal, so why the unwillingness to cooperate?
Wes Taylor
>Wes Taylor wrote:
>>
>> Dwayne, the name for the system you are advocating is slavery or, at best,
>> fascism. Try to think this through and apply it to something other than
>> fansubs. You want Tomodaci to do the work, pay out for a translation ( a
>> related but SEPERATE property than the origional script) and then hand it
over
>> because of rules Tomodachi NEVER afreed to. You have removed their freedom
of
>> choice. Personally, if that were done to me, I'd be pusuing every course of
>> retaliation I could find, with the goal of driving the culprits out of the
>> hobby. Tomadachi has been very calm and, I believe foolishly, polite.
>I knew my stand would stir some controversy, because it is a fine
>distinction, and I hesitated to bring it up because I'm not sure most of
>the guys on this net would have the mental dexterity to comprehend it.
>That's a flame, I know, but some people can be so dense.
Gratuitously insulting the general populace is not a good way to start.
> It is difficult to get people to understand that a person is more than just
>himself and he owes a lot to people around them.
A person is who they are. Sorry, Dwayne, people are not Borg. I owe those
around me only the fulfilment of any responsibilities I accept by my actions
or words. I owe you nothing as we have never met nor been in any contact save
this set of messages.
> A friend of mine still copies lot of anime for people. I ask him, if fans
>are such shits like you say they are, why do you still put so much of your
>personal time into this? His answer is simply that when he was first
starting
> out into anime, people copied for him and he is obligated by honor to return
>the favor.
It was his decision to see himself as having an obligation. Personally, if he
was no longer enjoying the hobby, he should have quit distributing.
>In the same way, fandom grew and survived because people freely gave their
scripts >out. Karen should not make such a fuss about returning the favor.
>Let me ask you this. Where would Tomodachi be if there weren't other
>fansubbers? Would she have a subtitle program to use if she was the
>only subtitler?
Subtitlers are commercial products done for reasons that have nada to do with
fansubs. Yes, they would have been around and she could have used them.
>Would she have rec.arts.anime to advertise in if she was the only fansubber?
Would >there be any customers if no one knew about anime? Would she know
about anime at >all if it wasn't for other people subtitling/copying years
before Tomodachi was born?
The existence of the hobby in no way obligates her to do things in some
specific way. This is not a sporting hobby, it is appreciation of a foreign
film genre.
>The answers to all these questions is a negative.
]Bzzt. Wrong answer.
>I'm not advocating slavery. I'm advocating her acknowleding what has been
done >FOR her and why she should not regret paying people back. Karen didn't
create >anime fandom in America, but she is taking advantage of all the work
done by
>others necessary for her to be doing what she is doing. People have
>literally donated years of their life to further anime visability
>outside of Japan, for absolutely no personal benefit. Karen is taking
>advantage of all that work that had to be done for her to be where she
>is, and she is spurning those who were there before her.
1) you are advocating the expropriation of work without recompense and against
the wishes of the victim. That is either theft (if the victim is alowed to
walk away) or slavery (if the victimis compelled to stay).
>Fushigi Yuugi and Marmalade Boy are not solely the work of Karen.
The translation and timing is or is bought by her.
>It took years of work by a lot of people to get to the point where a show
>like Fushigi Yuugi could be subtitled, advertised and widely
>distributed. I spent years promoting anime. I released scripts to over
>1500 minutes worth of anime. I copied an average of a hundred tapes a
>month for hundreds of people over just as long if not a longer period
>than Karen did and I put out the extra effort to put out 1st gen
>subtitles, not 3rd gen. I just sent funds to a translator in England to
>get started on a project that I'll release the scripts to as soon as I
>get them. Everything Karen is doing, I did, with the exception that I
>definitely never tried to make any money off of it. It is not slavery
>to suggest that maybe she should act like one of the boys. If everyone
>had acted six years ago like she is doing now, we wouldn't be having
>this argument, because anime would have remained an underground fad of
>isolated pockets of subtitlers.
All this is very nice but Karen is in no way obligated to act in any manner
other than as she wishes by it.
>
>> Even for a hobby, think about the priciples you are acting on. The ones you
>> are using are truly sickening and slimey. No one should be forced to act in
a
>> way contrary to his or her wishes unless they are causing another harm.
>> depriving you of the product of their labor causes you no harm).
>Wrong. Let's use football as an example to put it in perspective.
>Karen is like a running back who struck it big but forgot that there are
>10 other people on the team, without whom she would be nothing. She
>forgot about the coaches who taught her, the trainers who got her into
>shape, the linemen who blocked for her and the football greats that
>worked for virtually nothing for years just because they loved the game
>so that she could reap the benefits of a rich salary and public
acknowledgment. Some football players, when they strike it big, pay back
>the scholarship the school gave them, and give gifts to their linemen,
>acknowledging that without their help, they would be nothing.
How did we go from a hobby to proffesional sports? You need to work on the
analogies here Dwayne.
That aside, Karen would be a talented subtitler if the rest of the hobby
dropped dead. She would not have an audience, but that does not lessen her
achievements, only her enjoyment of them. If the linebacker did not have
talent, he would not 壮trike it big'. Without the others he would not be part
of that team, but he would still have the talent and the team could find 10
others to fill those roles.
>
>It is not sick or slimey to say that someone should pay back what has
>been done for them in the manner that it was done for them. Like my
>friend, I copied for years because people had done so for me. I
>subtitled for people because someone had subtitled for me. I gave out
>all the scripts I've ever worked on and will continue to do so, because
>people gave me scripts when I needed them. I'd feel like an ingrate if
>I withheld any scripts. I'm no harder on Tomodachi than I am on myself.
You are actually far worse than I had thought. I thought we were dealing with
simple failure to think through what you were saying. Instead I find a vicous
little collectivist who seems to hate any one with talent that sets them above
the herd and wants them to make himself feel adequate by making others
kowtow to the herd. Sorry Dwayne, not interested.
Mike Laughead
> [...he is pissed at Central Anime...]
> >I am a fan of anime (I don't know if I am a normal one.) But I am one
that
> >doesn't have the money to buy a laserdisc player, or to buy the
laserdiscs.
> [...Tomodachi was nice...]
> >Now CA has done something that will benefit SOME fans of Fushigi Yuugi,
the
> >ones that have laserdisc players and have paid the God awful amount of
> >money for the laserdiscs.
> >
> >The problem is, is that the other fans, the ones that only have VCRs,
can't
> >get Fushigi Yuugi now. They can read the scripts, but where can they
get
> >the tapes?
>
> There is an important difference, fans who buy the original laser discs,
or
> domestic releases have gotten legal copies of stuff, and have made sure
that
> the creators of the material have gotten paid. People who don't havn't
> given the creators money for their work. (I am not totally innocent, but
> I sure try...)
>
> [...complaining that Central Anime should do contortions to fulfil
Tomodachi's
> requirements about their scripts...]
>
> I think Tomodachi was whining, plain and simple...perhaps CA should have
> respected that, but given the lack of moral basis for T's whining (and
> CA's apparent ignorance of this restriction T wanted...) I don't blame
CA
> for what they did, and I beleive that CA's policy of distributing scripts
> has a certain moral mole hill due to it pushing people to buy the LDs...
I do plan on buying the laserdiscs someday, but I don't have $400 to get
something that I can't view.
I have a question though, Fushigi Yuugi was a television series, right? So
it would be okay to copy the episodes off of TV and then subtitle them,
right? If this is true, then what is really the difference in taping off
of the laserdiscs and then subtitling them? If it is okay to do this, then
I have no problem buying all of the fan-subbed Fushigi Yuugi that I can.
If there is a problem, I will get together enough money to get the
laserdiscs......
Mike Laughead
> Mike, you are only getting screwed by Tomodachi. They CHOSE to stop.
> They could have ignored us, but they didn't.
>
> And a point that has been pointed out by others and you in a way:
> You don't own the laser discs and therefore have no right to have a
> bootlegged copy. Tomodachi was doing you a favor, they had absolutely
> obligation to release anything to anyone. And they can chose to quit
> doing it at any time they wish and you abd others have no say in the
> matter.
>
> You may not like us, but we have just made it possible for you to
> contact ANY distributor with the LD's and get a copy. You'll just jave
> to wait until we or someone else gets around to finishing the series.
> After we finish the series, you can ask Karen for her already completed
> versions which she is withholding.
>
> Sorry, but I can't tell Tomodachi to start up again.
>
> Todd
> From Dave's e-mail
When I get the $400 I will be thankful (I hope.) I posted this in a
different message, but isn't it okay to have a copy since FY was a series
that was broadcast on TV?
Yasha
You "may" be correct, but you by bulk, and maybe for a big org that's
totally correct, but if I miss my "wrap-up" of what your saying, your
acuising them of being in this for a profit? I dunno about the other
fansub groups, but that kinda destresses me..
Yasha
--
"Here's my credit card, and I don't care
if the post office can't fit that CLAMP
section of your store in a box..."***FY,Greenwood,VGAI,etc...
Dwayne Gregory
Mike Laughead wrote:
>
>
> I have a question though, Fushigi Yuugi was a television series, right? So
> it would be okay to copy the episodes off of TV and then subtitle them,
> right? If this is true, then what is really the difference in taping off
> of the laserdiscs and then subtitling them? If it is okay to do this, then
> I have no problem buying all of the fan-subbed Fushigi Yuugi that I can.
> If there is a problem, I will get together enough money to get the
> laserdiscs......
I don't know about Japan or the rest of the world. American law allows
you to record a television show for time shifting purposes; meaning
record it so that you can watch it later. I don't believe you are
allowed to keep it after you watch it.
Mike Laughead
>Basically I was trying to point out the how silly the logic was about why
they
>were entitled to the scripts
>Centrals logic seems to go something like this
>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y)
>Scripts
>now don't you think Central might be upset if we use that same logic the
>other way around
>Because Central gives us access to (X) Scripts we are entitled to (Y)
>Fansubs
>Lets get real central would be pissed! It would be a how dare you demand
>that we distribute fansubs we never said we would do that!
>You know kind of like Tomadachi never said they would distribute scripts.
>But if you want to take Centrals logic and try to apply it to other things
>here are some fun examples
>Because Tomadachi gave us access to Cookies we are entitled to thier
>Recipes
>Because Tomadachi's web page had a picture we were given access to we >are
entitled to the Artbook, Photo-album or whatever that photo came from.
>Because Jinnai gave us access to this message we are entitled to the
>computer it was created on.
Uhm, those analogies don't work. The fan-subs that Tomodachi distributed,
had everything in, the scripts and all, they were just in a different form.
CA had to do some work to get the scripts. It is kind of like this:
Because Tomodachi gave us access to Cookies we are entitled to figure out
the recipe for ourselves, and then make the recipe available.
It isn't exactly that way, because copying down a script is a bit easier
than finding the recipe out from the finished product, but you get the
picture.
This is what should have happened. Tomodachi starts producing fan-subbed
copies of FY. CA asks for the scripts. Tomodachi says, "Yes, we will give
you the scripts, because out whole purpose it to make anime available in
English, to as many people as possible." But instead, Tomodachi said, "No
we won't give you the scripts." When that happened, CA should have said,
"We respect your decision, and we will translate FY ourselves." But
instead they copied the scripts from the Tomodachi subs. Both parties are
in the wrong at some point, and both are in the right at some point, so no
one can really point fingers, unless they are part of neither side. I
don't know anyone that has added to this thread that isn't in favor of one
side though....
Mike (Dende)
laug...@muscanet.com
http://www.muscanet.com/~laughead (Dragonball Freaks Anonymous)
You should be able to pick up how the underlying logic is flawed.
----------
Dwayne Gregory
Jinnai wrote:
>
> In message <5bf3lo$4...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> - math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan
> Mathews)14 Jan 1997 04:56:24 GMT writes:
> :>"Borrowing" under cover of darkness with no intent to return, I
> :>suppose.
>
> Actually that's why it is in quotes because we know that that is how they
> would say it...
>
> But if you had been reading the thread you would have seen the messages about
> the fact that Karen contacts the companies that owns the rights and explains
> what she is going doing... She tells them she will stop if they have any
> problems with their products being used in such a way. Apparently they
> haven't had any real problem. Maybe they know that they are getting access to
> a new market... Or maybe they just can't read English ^_^
"Contacting" implies an actual conversation or transfer of information.
Sending a letter is not contacting. People have sent letters in the
past. I know of no one who has ever received a reply. The Japanese
don't like saying no, and it would be foolish to say yes, so no response
is the most appropriate action for them.
>
> :>
> :>>Centrals logic seems to go something like this
> :>>
> :>>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y)
> :>>Scripts
> :>
> :>Um, you are entitled. After all, there's a copy included on every
>
> Um no not actually... you see they wanted the scripts... timing codes... you
> can try to work out the timing codes with a stop watch... but you are not
> entitled to the pieces of paper the translation was done on... nor are you
> entitled to the Jasco? timing file.
But they are entitled to the information that was freely given on the
tapes. I wish people would get one thing clear: Once you give out
information, you cannot tell someone how to use it or not to act on it.
The Japanese can limit how you use the Japanese script on the video
because that script is copyrighted material because it is part of the
copyrighted story. But information on what those Japanese words mean is
just information, and if you own the source material, i.e, a legit
laserdisc or prerecorded tape, no one can prevent you from using that
information in conjunction with your laserdisc. If you don't want them
using the info, don't give it out.
> :>tape. Am I supposed to believe that I'm not allowed to take the script
> :>off the tape and redistribute it? That's copyright protection,
>
> not if you respect the wishes of the person who spent a lot of time putting it
> there. But since you believe you are entitled to anything then one can't
> really expect you would respect the wishes of the person who made that
> translation possible.
In the end, it comes down to respecting wishes. Does one have to? No.
Should one? Depends. Is it right or wrong? Neither. Whether a wish
should be respected depends on the wish and what its effect would be.
Respecting her wish limits distribution. This in turn limits the
promotion of anime. It's been argued thousands of times that fansubbers
deserve slack from copyright laws because they serve the greater cause
of benefiting their fellow fans and the Japanese. If they do not serve
that greater cause, do they deserve the slack or the respect?
>
> Why are they unwilling to cooperate?
>
> 1. They believe releasing scripts promotes piracy because anyone can now make
> fansubs that don't have those questionable notes that say "FANSUBBED FOR FANS
> BY FANS" "NOT FOR SALE"
As you say below, it has never stopped bootlegs before. Stores don't
care about the Not For Sale line nor do the people who buy them. What
stops bootlegs is distribution. Limiting distribution encourages
bootlegging.
>
> Does it actually protect against piracy? probably not but if Tomadachi
> believes it does then they have a reason for their actions
Everyone has a reason for their actions. There are a dozen different
reasons for not distributing scripts. But if you believe in guarding
against piracy, you have no choice but to not distribute anything, not
even to close personal friends. Since they choose to distribute tapes,
anti-piracy cannot be the reason. Even the Fansubbed by fans line can
be taken out of a tape.
>
> 2. They believe that each individual should do his own work. Basically if
> you take a Tomadachi script ... no matter how you play with it your still
> working off of Karen's and Mastomo's spin on things... You can't create
> anything new. They don't distribute scripts so people will create new visions
> of what the anime is about... visions free of Karen's and Mastomo's ideas
The exact opposite philosophy of how to create a market. If everyone is
doing his own work on the same show, there will be lots of variations of
one show. Not very exciting, not benefitial to anime. In the past, it
has been accepted that distributing fan tapes was illegal, but since it
supposedly was done in the interest of promoting anime which in turn
would help bring legal anime over here, most everyone turned a blind
eye. If a group is not acting in the interest of promoting anime, which
Tomo is not by limiting distribution, then that prompts one to wonder
why they are in it. Artistic expression? ^_^
Translating is not about ideas or visions. It's about accurately
getting across what the bloody folks are saying.
>
> You don't have to believe this but as long as Tomadachi believes this then
> they have a reason for not behaving exactly like Central.
By the way, since someone said their name means friends, it is
Tomodachi. The letters Toma form part of several words, all dealing with
stopping, termination and such. Kind of appropriate, eh? ^_^
>
> Tomadachi has given many of us a great deal of joy. Is it really so very hard
> to accept that their point of view might be different from yours? And
> couldn't you in return for the many hours of joy they have given you couldn't
> you respect thier wishs?
None given. I don't buy or sell fan tapes.
>
> :>--
> :> ---------- Ryan Mathews
> :>
> :>Email: math...@ix.netcom.com *** Have you voted in the ***
> :>SnailMail: 401 Mortimer Drive #410 5TH ANNUAL R.A.A FAVORITES POLL?
> :> Bedford OH, 44146 *** Vote now! ***
>
> Jinnai
Ming Yau So
In article <01bc0268$203c2c40$bfa3d9cd@abcjones> "Mike Laughead" <laug...@muscanet.com> writes:
...
>I have a question though, Fushigi Yuugi was a television series, right? So
>it would be okay to copy the episodes off of TV and then subtitle them,
>right? If this is true, then what is really the difference in taping off
>of the laserdiscs and then subtitling them? If it is okay to do this, then
>I have no problem buying all of the fan-subbed Fushigi Yuugi that I can.
>If there is a problem, I will get together enough money to get the
>laserdiscs......
Don't know about Japan or Intl' laws, but according to US laws, things you
tape off from broadcasting can only be used for personal time-shifting
purpose (unclear if archiving counted as time-shifting). Thus, legally
speaking, you cannot tape something (copyrighted materials, subtitled or not)
off from air and give (distribute) it to some other people/parties.
--
==============================================================================
Ming Yau So Internet: min...@netcom.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mike Laughead
> You're getting screwed over by Tomodachi. Nothing Central Anime did
> *forced* them to stop distributing. Blame CA(K) for doing something of
> which you disapprove. Call them thieves, if you will. But don't blame
> them for your lack of FUSHIGI YUUGI tapes. That responsibility is
> Tomodachi's, and theirs alone.
I am not sure that I got my point across in my original letter. What I was
trying to say was the Tomodachi was nice enough to subtitle FY for me (and
other fans) I was angry that Central Anime did something, that made
Tomodachi angry (or whatever), and so I don't get to see the end of FY,
subtitled. I know that CA does not control Tomodachi, but I am still upset
that I am getting screwed on the deal, and from all appearances, if CA had
not put the FY scripts up on the net, I would be able to get all of FY. I
know I should be upset at Tomodachi too, and I kind of am, but they have
provided a service for me, and CA has provided nothing. I guess it is just
easier to be mad at someone (CA) that has never done anything nice for you,
and it is harder to be angry at someone (Tomodachi) who had done something
for you, that you are very thankful for.
I do see both sides of the issue, but I wish that it would have turned out
differently.
Both sides have a point, and I wish that they could have made an agreement
that would have benefited both parties. I hope this doesn't happen to
another anime that I start buying..........
William Bardwell
In article <01bc0268$203c2c40$bfa3d9cd@abcjones>,
Mike Laughead <laug...@muscanet.com> wrote:
>I do plan on buying the laserdiscs someday, but I don't have $400 to get
>something that I can't view.
Well, then as with everything else, you can wait to use/view it till you buy
it...
>I have a question though, Fushigi Yuugi was a television series, right? So
>it would be okay to copy the episodes off of TV and then subtitle them,
>right?
No...not really...they show it on TV because then people pay them for ads,
plus under normal copyright law, you can tape it off TV, but not copy it...
>If this is true, then what is really the difference in taping off
>of the laserdiscs and then subtitling them?
(That taping is only ok cause you bought the discs, you "buy" TV stuff by
only by taping it off the air, and because you are watching the ads...(and
you live somewhere where they broadcast it, and therefore can buy the stuff
they advertise))
>If it is okay to do this, then
>I have no problem buying all of the fan-subbed Fushigi Yuugi that I can.
>If there is a problem, I will get together enough money to get the
>laserdiscs......
William Bardwell
wbar...@platsol.com
--
William Bardwell
wbar...@platsol.com
Mark David
jin...@texas.net (Jinnai) wrote:
>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y) Scripts
Which assumes fansubs and the scripts are mutally exclusive which I do
not believe they are.
It seems to me that a script genlocked to tape is not signifigantly
different than one saved to disc or one printed out or one that is
hand-writen.
>Because Tomadachi gave us access to Cookies we are entitled to thier Recipes
Entitlement is a moot issue in the realm of fansubs, wouldn't you say?
If you give out free cookies, you are also giving out the parts of
which that cookie is composed, and it would be pretty ridiculous to
claim some sort of entitlment to the parts of the whole, wouldn't you
say?
>You should be able to pick up how the underlying logic is flawed.
>Central has tried to cover the logic flaw in a few ways
There is no such flaw.
>Yup and you can use that logic to break into someones house to steal the
>artbook because you are going to use it to make better scans that will benefit
>everyone because they will be so much more clear.
The tapes--and the scripts they included--were given away, not stolen.
Mark David -- Super Genius! | "Just because it says DVD does not mean
mad...@achilles.net | the quality is there."
dl...@freenet.carleton.ca | --David Garber, Senior VP, LIVE Ent.
Enrique Conty
I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
- To Karen Duffy: get off your high horse, and face the facts. You're
not an oh-so-pure innocent victim, you're not on the side of light or
goodness or anything like that. You're a crook and a thief, and you
have no business complaining about people doing to you what has become
your business to do to others.
- To Central Anime: you guys are scum, but you knew this already.
It was only a matter of time until you got into *really* hot water
with these kinds of stunts. I don't feel sorry for you kids.
- To all you people siding with Tomodachi: get a spine and stop groveling.
Let's face it, he only reason why most of you "sided" with them is
because they decided to stop the subs. Had Karen decided to continue,
this flamewar would never have happened.
- To all you people siding with Central Anime: get a life and get
a clue. You have no god-given right to have any and all fan scripts
out there for your personal use.
- To the ones complaining about not being able to buy the Japanese LDs:
get a job, that's what I did. You have no money? Then make some.
You'll never make that amount of money? Then get out of anime, this
hobby is not for the poor. If you decide to steal, that's because
you WANT to steal, not because you NEED to.
In short...
YOU ALL SUCK!!
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
Come to Anime Central, Chicago's First Anime Convention!
April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Chicago, IL
Visit our website at http://www.acen.org
R-kun
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote in article
<5bgbea$o...@trotsky.cig.mot.com>...
> In article <5bf32k$s...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>
math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan Mathews) writes:
>
> I realized a few years back that many fansubbers do their thing because
> of ego or greed first, and because of their love of the artform second.
> Thus the hoarding and stealing, the bitching about who wrote the better
> scripts, etc, etc, etc.
I thought id never see the day I would post on this godforsaken newsgroup,
but you have hit the nail on the head, conty.
Wade Missimer
Enrique Conty wrote:
> In short...
>
> YOU ALL SUCK!!
>
> --
> Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
> Come to Anime Central, Chicago's First Anime Convention!
> April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Chicago, IL
> Visit our website at http://www.acen.org
What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team. In one clueless
post, he's managed to offend most of the anime fans in the US. Come to
Chicago and see the Anime Clown! What's next in the Anime Central PR
blitz? Spiiting on little old ladies?
Put a muzzle on the guy!
--
Wade Missimer
e-mail: w...@xnet.com
personal web page: http://www.xnet.com/~wfm/
CDS webmaster: http://www.mcs.com/~wfm/html/cko.html
Mark David
co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>I realized a few years back that many fansubbers do their thing because
>of ego or greed first, and because of their love of the artform second.
I think you're being pessimistic, Conty.
There is the bitching and the hoarding and all the other little
nonsense fans like to impose on each other BUT it all centers around
anime. If greed and ego came first, there are far more popular and
lucrative hobbies to be in. There IS bitching and hoarding and
flaming, etc, precisely BECAUSE anime is so important to the parties
involved.
Fred Leggett
In article <32DD70...@xnet.com>, Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> wrote:
>
>What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
>proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team. In one clueless
article. Thanks, conty, for making usenet worth reading today.
--
---
Fred Leggett - fleg...@gate.net, fleg...@animece.oau.org
Mike Laughead
I have a question about supporting the Japanese creator.
Because Fushigi Yuugi was broadcast on Japanese TV, doesn't that mean that
anyone can tape it off the TV, and then distribute copies (if they want
to?) And what is really the difference between the TV version, and the LD
version? Just having the commercials taken out. So is it still illegal to
get copies of FY from Tomodachi?
Gary R. Smith
Mike Laughead wrote:
>
> I have a question about supporting the Japanese creator.
>
> Because Fushigi Yuugi was broadcast on Japanese TV, doesn't that mean that
> anyone can tape it off the TV, and then distribute copies (if they want
> to?) And what is really the difference between the TV version, and the LD
> version? Just having the commercials taken out. So is it still illegal to
> get copies of FY from Tomodachi?
It is perfectly legal to tape a program off air for personal use, but
you still can't make copies for distribution. It's illegal. Copy-right
law is something I've been working with for nearly ten years. There are
some exceptions in the law, but basically it's illegal to distribute
copies from off air recordings.
Don't get me wrong I support fansubs, particularly when things are a
long time/never coming to the US. Until a Japanese company signs an
agreement to release a program here, chances are very very slim someone
distributing copies would have something to worry about; fansubbers are
not really affecting a market at that poing. Once and agree is signed
it's a different matter, a company would be more likely to take action
against an individual/group. Software and video pirates are rarely
prosecuted, but every so often it happens.
Gary
Jinnai
In message <32DC5B...@gte.net> - Dwayne Gregory <ret...@gte.net>Tue, 14
Jan 1997 20:21:16 -0800 writes:
:>
:>Jinnai wrote:
:>> :>> But if you had been reading the thread you would have seen the messages about
:>> the fact that Karen contacts the companies that owns the rights and explains
:>> what she is going doing... She tells them she will stop if they have any
:>> problems with their products being used in such a way. Apparently they
:>> haven't had any real problem. Maybe they know that they are getting access to
:>> a new market... Or maybe they just can't read English ^_^
:>
:>"Contacting" implies an actual conversation or transfer of information.
:>Sending a letter is not contacting. People have sent letters in the
:>past. I know of no one who has ever received a reply. The Japanese
:>don't like saying no, and it would be foolish to say yes, so no response
:>is the most appropriate action for them.
Ok she has made an effort... is it all she should do? I don't know. Whoever
recieved the letter chose not to invoke their copyrights. I beleive you
stated that if people don't actively persue their copyrights they lose them.
This is part of why all those people with star trek web pages are now getting
cease and desist orders. There is an interesting discussion about what
happened on the B-5 group. But it comes down to Paramount just making sure
that their copyrighted material doesn't become public domain.
Does this say anything? Well if the guy who got Karen's letter was the
janitor then no it really doesn't ... but if it did go to the actual head of
whatever group holds those rights it would seem to say he doesn't care or he
has decided silence is a better answer than to defend what he currently owns.
:>
:>>
:>> :>
:>> :>>Centrals logic seems to go something like this
:>> :>>
:>> :>>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y)
:>> :>>Scripts
:>> :>
:>> :>Um, you are entitled. After all, there's a copy included on every
:>>
:>> Um no not actually... you see they wanted the scripts... timing codes... you
:>> can try to work out the timing codes with a stop watch... but you are not
:>> entitled to the pieces of paper the translation was done on... nor are you
:>> entitled to the Jasco? timing file.
:>
:>But they are entitled to the information that was freely given on the
:>tapes. I wish people would get one thing clear: Once you give out
:>information, you cannot tell someone how to use it or not to act on it.
Yes this is very true you can only make your requests and hope they will be
respected. They where not. I just took a look at a web page where a group is
now distributing Central Anime Fushigi Episodes. All I could think was about
all the time Karen put into those scripts ... now they are gone and CA is
credited for the Fansubs.
They must be so proud.
:>In the end, it comes down to respecting wishes. Does one have to? No.
:>Should one? Depends. Is it right or wrong? Neither. Whether a wish
:>should be respected depends on the wish and what its effect would be.
:>Respecting her wish limits distribution. This in turn limits the
:>promotion of anime.
Did it? To whom? The few people with the boxed sets?
But now it seems CA's right not to respect the wishs of Tomadachi has promoted
anime right we can now see CA's Fushigi Yuugi.
How did we gain anything? If it promoted anime It hasn't become obvious what
the gain is. At best we are back to where we were before. We have Fushigi
.. well at least we have two versions of it ... where is the benefit? Looks
like CA just spent a lot of time redoing what Tomadachi had already done.
It's been argued thousands of times that fansubbers
:>deserve slack from copyright laws because they serve the greater cause
:>of benefiting their fellow fans and the Japanese. If they do not serve
:>that greater cause, do they deserve the slack or the respect?
:>
:>>
:>> Why are they unwilling to cooperate?
:>>
:>> 1. They believe releasing scripts promotes piracy because anyone can now make
:>> fansubs that don't have those questionable notes that say "FANSUBBED FOR FANS
:>> BY FANS" "NOT FOR SALE"
:>
:>As you say below, it has never stopped bootlegs before. Stores don't
:>care about the Not For Sale line nor do the people who buy them. What
:>stops bootlegs is distribution. Limiting distribution encourages
:>bootlegging.
:>
:>>
:>> Does it actually protect against piracy? probably not but if Tomadachi
:>> believes it does then they have a reason for their actions
:>
:>Everyone has a reason for their actions. There are a dozen different
:>reasons for not distributing scripts. But if you believe in guarding
:>against piracy, you have no choice but to not distribute anything, not
:>even to close personal friends. Since they choose to distribute tapes,
:>anti-piracy cannot be the reason. Even the Fansubbed by fans line can
:>be taken out of a tape.
I did not mean this to be an all inclusive list... these were just the two
that had been brought up before in this thread.
But it does seem strange that this problem hadn't come up until now. As was
stated earlier in this thread by a member of CA Todd had the laserdisks and
didn't want them collecting dust. It seems CA wasn't really interested in
promoting anime it looks a bit more selfish than that. I'm still trying to
figure out how CA subbing Evangelion for "IN HOUSE" promotes anime. As I'm
buying the commercial releases (and wondering if I really want to spend in
excess of $400 to see the series to completion.) but I kind of think I'm
doing a bit more for anime by supporting the company that bought the rights to
the series.
:>
:>>
:>> 2. They believe that each individual should do his own work. Basically if
:>> you take a Tomadachi script ... no matter how you play with it your still
:>> working off of Karen's and Mastomo's spin on things... You can't create
:>> anything new. They don't distribute scripts so people will create new visions
:>> of what the anime is about... visions free of Karen's and Mastomo's ideas
:>
:>The exact opposite philosophy of how to create a market. If everyone is
:>doing his own work on the same show, there will be lots of variations of
:>one show. Not very exciting, not benefitial to anime.
So one subbing group taking another groups scripts and stamping thier own name
on them does benefit anime? It would seem that CA could have used thier time
to sub other series rather than worrying about one already being subbed.
In the past, it
:>has been accepted that distributing fan tapes was illegal, but since it
:>supposedly was done in the interest of promoting anime which in turn
:>would help bring legal anime over here, most everyone turned a blind
:>eye. If a group is not acting in the interest of promoting anime, which
:>Tomo is not by limiting distribution, then that prompts one to wonder
:>why they are in it. Artistic expression? ^_^
:>
:>Translating is not about ideas or visions. It's about accurately
:>getting across what the bloody folks are saying.
Ok lets see Tomadachi seemed to be doing a reasonable good job of accurately
getting across what Fushigi was about... even CA admits to this. Now given
that why did CA even need to get involved with the Fushigi series in the first
place?
:>> Tomadachi has given many of us a great deal of joy. Is it really so very hard
:>> to accept that their point of view might be different from yours? And
:>> couldn't you in return for the many hours of joy they have given you couldn't
:>> you respect thier wishs?
:>
:>None given. I don't buy or sell fan tapes.
Dwayne you are the exception... can Ryan or any of the rest of us who have
seen the Tomadachi Fansubs say the same thing?
:>
:>>
:>> :>--
ShinChanOh
>Yes this is very true you can only make your requests and hope they will
be
>respected. They where not. I just took a look at a web page where a
group
is
>now distributing Central Anime Fushigi Episodes. All I could think was
about
>all the time Karen put into those scripts ... now they are gone and CA is
>credited for the Fansubs.
>They must be so proud.
>Hey!! Bozo-boy!!! The scripts, as released, *credit* Tomodachi for their
>efforts.
>And, I might point out, this is an example that FY *WILL* be available,
>regardless of what Karen does or doesn't do. Do the tapes from that page
cost
>as much as the ones from Tomodachi?
Actually, they cost MORE. Gee, thanks.
>How did we gain anything? If it promoted anime It hasn't become obvious
what
>the gain is. At best we are back to where we were before. We have
Fushigi
>.. well at least we have two versions of it ... where is the benefit?
Looks
>like CA just spent a lot of time redoing what Tomadachi had already done.
>Only because they didn't want to share their scripts. I'd say it *did*
promote
>anime; looks like you'll be able to get FY from a variety of places now.
Sorry, FY was already widely available, both from the various distributors
and fansub traders, the ones who REALLY promote anime. And in most cases,
the quality listed was in the upper tier.
>I'm still trying to
>figure out how CA subbing Evangelion for "IN HOUSE" promotes anime. As
I'm
>buying the commercial releases (and wondering if I really want to spend
in
>excess of $400 to see the series to completion.) but I kind of think I'm
>doing a bit more for anime by supporting the company that bought the
rights
to
>the series.
>OH GOD-IN-HEAVEN AND JESUS ABOVE!!!!! You've got *balls* to imply that
>CA is
>doing something *wrong* by PAYING for translations PAYING FOR THE LD's
>and
>DOING THEIR OWN WORK on subbing something that is/will be commercially
>available!!! So we like our own translation and subtitles better, is
there
>anything wrong with that?!? In addition, SEVERAL OTHER SUBBING >PROJECTS
are
>ongoing in addition to Evangelion. We just don't do ONE FRIGGIN SERIES to
>the
>exclusion of all others. "
No, you do alot of series that have already been subbed by other groups.
At least groups like Tomodachi and Techno Girls work on series that groups
like yours won't touch. (With the exception of FY, and we all know what
happened there.)
Robert L. (Apparently, Todd's attack dog; can you say SYCOPHANT? Knew you
could)
<disgusted>
As well you should be, although not for the reason listed.
Walter Eric Kurtz III
In article <32DD70...@xnet.com>, w...@xnet.com says...
>proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team. In one clueless
>post, he's managed to offend most of the anime fans in the US. Come to
Much of anime fandom is offensive. Open your eyes. Need I start quoting
Shatner?
>Put a muzzle on the guy!
No thanks; we like him just the way he is :)
Wade Missimer
Albert Wong wrote:
>
> In article <32DD70...@xnet.com>, Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> wrote:
>
> >What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
>
> anyhere.
According to an e-mail from Conty, he's their Hotel Liason.
Albert Wong
>What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
>proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team. In one clueless
Conty is on the AniCen convention staff? He didn't mention it on his .sig
anyhere.
-----
Albert Wong, Chairman, Anime Expo 97
alb...@best.com
http://www.best.com/~albertw
Robert M Lowrey
ShinChanOh <shinc...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970116173...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
> No, you do alot of series that have already been subbed by other groups.
> At least groups like Tomodachi and Techno Girls work on series that groups
> like yours won't touch. (With the exception of FY, and we all know what
> happened there.)
Could you please give some examples of this? If we're doing series that have
already been done by other groups, chances are that the scripts aren't
available (hence the duplication of effort thing again) and/or the scripts (if
available) aren't very good.
We try not to duplicate efforts, but if someone is doing a bad job on a
series, we will duplicate the effort. Why is that a problem, especially if
we're PAYING for re-translation?
So now we're going to get slammed for doing our own work, using our own money
even if it duplicates efforts?! I thought that's what Karen and her minions
WANTED us to do! Jeez, guys, make up your minds!
And yes, there are series that we won't do; each group has it's own tastes in
anime. It seems kind of silly to imply that we're doing something wrong by not
subbing certain genres/series (that we don't like). I fail to see any fault on
our part for this.
>
> Robert L. (Apparently, Todd's attack dog; can you say SYCOPHANT? Knew you
> could)
I prefer "evil net minion" myself. :)
Dictionary def of "sycophant": One who attempts to win favor or advance
himself by flattering persons of influence; a servile self-seeker. Synonyms:
toady, flatterer.
Dictionary def of "minion": 1. One who is esteemed; a favorite 2.a) An
obsequious follower or dependent; sycophant b)a subordinate of an individiual
or organization
OOOPS! (shouldn't have looked those up!)
Errr, I'm hopefully a "minion" 1. or 2.b) (^_^)
Robert L.
(lowly instrument of Todd's will)
Fred Leggett
In article <19970116173...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Your point being...? What distributors "charge" for any given show
is their policy decision and not ca(k)'s, who is completely out of that
loop. If you wish to cast aspersions at the appropriate people, please do
so, but being sarcastic to robert does not help your case.
>Sorry, FY was already widely available, both from the various distributors
>and fansub traders, the ones who REALLY promote anime. And in most cases,
>the quality listed was in the upper tier.
That's interesting. Apparently, karen really doesn't care about
anything other than if I run a sub of fy using a translation that she has
completed. It's interesting because it is a relatively small bit of
discontinuous thought that carries with it significant implications and
impacts. Again, I must ask - why does karen care? Is there anyone who
can adequately answer this question, perhaps karen herself? As I wrote to
james marken, karen may have a perfectly good and sensible reason why she
did not want her fy translations converted to a form that anyone with the
source material and subtitling gear can use. Can you answer this
question, or do you (like many others in this thread) consider it
something not worthy of discussion?
>No, you do alot of series that have already been subbed by other groups.
<sigh> Which only goes to show that the fansubbing "community" is
wracked with factionalization. If techno girls or silverwynd or Group X
would cooperate with people like todd and robert, timed scripts *could* be
made available to the people who have even the slightest right to them -
those with the source material (presumably original products) and
subtitling equipment. Do you consider that an ignoble goal? If so, why?
To james - yeah, I said I had probably written my last article on this
subject, but some of these posts cry out like a banshee for follow-up.
Ryan Mathews
In <5bf91u$6...@news3.texas.net> jin...@texas.net (Jinnai) writes:
>
ME>Um, you are entitled. After all, there's a copy included on every
ME>tape [Tomodachi distributes].
>
>Um no not actually... you see they wanted the scripts... timing
>codes...
Oh, sure. That's all Karen's upset about, Central pirating her TIMING
CODES! Gimme a break... Besides, Central retimed the whole thing.
>But if you think you are entitled then I will find it fasinating to
>see how you try to explain it to the judge when you are charged with
>breaking and entering to get what you are "entitled to"
Considering that I'd be stealing stolen property, I somehow doubt the
"owner" would report me.
ME>How many times does this have to be explained! Central has never
ME>*claimed* to be a fansub distributor! But Tomodachi *does* claim to
ME>be a translating organization, the same as Central! They are
ME>working towards the same goal, so why the unwillingness to
ME>cooperate?
>
>Lets see... looking at their web page they say nothing about
>distributing scripts.
They do distribute scripts. Look on your television screen. The
script is there, at the bottom. Forget about this timing code crap.
That has nothing to do with translation. Anyone with a stopwatch can
time a script. You have to know Japanese to translate.
>2. They believe that each individual should do his own work.
Even if someone else has already done the exact same damn work? That's
stupid, not to mention selfish and rude.
>Tomadachi has given many of us a great deal of joy.
So has Central Anime.
>Is it really so very hard to accept that their point of view might be
>different from yours?
Is it really so very hard for you to accept that Tomodachi shares the
blame for what happened? And is solely to blame for not releasing more
tapes?
>And couldn't you in return for the many hours of joy they have given
>you couldn't you respect thier wishs?
Sure. I, personally, *would* respect their wishes. But it is naive
for them to *expect* me to, considering the business that they're in.
Justin Neil Lapierre
> Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) writes:
> > I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
> > - To Karen Duffy: get off your high horse, and face the facts. You're
> > not an oh-so-pure innocent victim, you're not on the side of light or
> > goodness or anything like that. You're a crook and a thief, and you
> > have no business complaining about people doing to you what has become
> > your business to do to others.
Please remember that Karen Duffy is a real person who has put alot of
energy
and time into subtitling anime for fans. No matter what, she doesn't
deserve
being personally attacked. Central Anime and it's representatives don't
deserve
being personally attacked. No organization that exists to somehow
further anime
fandom deserves being attacked.
The situation is unfortunate, but it is also complete. Directing
personal insults
and injuries will only leave all parties involved upset. I wouldn't be
too surprised
if both "Tomodachi Anime" AND "Central Anime" decided to stop everything
they were
doing and close shop completely. They are both volunteers and don't
need to be doing
anything and certainly don't deserve the insults and accusations.
Please remember to be kind.
Sincerely,
Justin Neil Lapierre
MIT Anime Treasurer
--
Justin Neil Lapierre, Multimedia Systems Designer
Center for Educational Computing Initiatives
E40-300, MIT, 1 Amherst St, Cambridge, MA 02139
W (617) 253-0153 H (617) 354-2068
Ru Igarashi
Fred Leggett (fleg...@gate.net) wrote:
>In article <32DD70...@xnet.com>, Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
>>proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team. In one clueless
>article. Thanks, conty, for making usenet worth reading today.
>
the posting pretty good, too. If one is going to lambaste the
participants of such an issue, it ought to be done with style.
Nice one Conty. You've got to be an asset to Anime Central.
ru
Ferdinand A. Pelayo
Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) writes:
> I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
I agree that most of the bickering is stupid and isn't going anywhere,
but I'll gladly contest you on this:
> - To Karen Duffy: get off your high horse, and face the facts. You're
> not an oh-so-pure innocent victim, you're not on the side of light or
> goodness or anything like that. You're a crook and a thief, and you
> have no business complaining about people doing to you what has become
> your business to do to others.
This seems to be on the same level as the flames directed at Trish
Ledoux for screwing over pre-Viz Ranma fans for her part in the dubbing
atrocities committed. You obviously don't KNOW the person too well other
than for what she's "done". (some people obviously hasn't spent any time on
the MB ML before spouting "crybaby" all over this flamewar) If all you can
make of her is that she's no better than the average pre-pubescent whiner
just from one announcement, you can take your opinion and stick it.
--
Anime Underground
Ferdinand Pelayo
King of Fighters '96 quote of the day:
"I will break anyone who stands in my way towards world conquest." - Geese
Dwayne Gregory
Wade Missimer wrote:
>
> Enrique Conty wrote:
>
> > In short...
> >
> > YOU ALL SUCK!!
> >
> > --
> > Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
> > Come to Anime Central, Chicago's First Anime Convention!
> > April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Chicago, IL
> > Visit our website at http://www.acen.org
>
> proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team. In one clueless
> blitz? Spiiting on little old ladies?
Excuse me, but this a perfect example of someone seeing and believing
only what he wants. Conty equally insulted all parties involved in his
post. Anime Central spokesman? Who calls Anime Central scum? I rest
my case of most of fandom being denser than a post.
>
> Put a muzzle on the guy!
>
> --
> Wade Missimer
> e-mail: w...@xnet.com
Robert M Lowrey
Jinnai <jin...@texas.net> wrote in article <5bkaco$s...@news3.texas.net>...
In message <32DC5B...@gte.net> - Dwayne Gregory <ret...@gte.net>Tue, 14
Jan 1997 20:21:16 -0800 writes:
:>
:>Jinnai wrote:
:>
:>>
:>> :>
:>> :>>Centrals logic seems to go something like this
:>> :>>
:>> :>>Because Tomadachi gave us access to (X) Fansubs we are entitled to (Y)
:>> :>>Scripts
:>> :>
:>> :>Um, you are entitled. After all, there's a copy included on every
:>>
:>> Um no not actually... you see they wanted the scripts... timing codes...
you
:>> can try to work out the timing codes with a stop watch... but you are not
:>> entitled to the pieces of paper the translation was done on... nor are you
:>> entitled to the Jasco? timing file.
:>
:>But they are entitled to the information that was freely given on the
:>tapes. I wish people would get one thing clear: Once you give out
:>information, you cannot tell someone how to use it or not to act on it.
>Yes this is very true you can only make your requests and hope they will be
>respected. They where not. I just took a look at a web page where a group
is
>now distributing Central Anime Fushigi Episodes. All I could think was about
>all the time Karen put into those scripts ... now they are gone and CA is
>credited for the Fansubs.
>They must be so proud.
Hey!! Bozo-boy!!! The scripts, as released, *credit* Tomodachi for their
efforts.
And, I might point out, this is an example that FY *WILL* be available,
regardless of what Karen does or doesn't do. Do the tapes from that page cost
as much as the ones from Tomodachi?
:>In the end, it comes down to respecting wishes. Does one have to? No.
:>Should one? Depends. Is it right or wrong? Neither. Whether a wish
:>should be respected depends on the wish and what its effect would be.
:>Respecting her wish limits distribution. This in turn limits the
:>promotion of anime.
>Did it? To whom? The few people with the boxed sets?
>But now it seems CA's right not to respect the wishs of Tomadachi has
promoted
>anime right we can now see CA's Fushigi Yuugi.
>How did we gain anything? If it promoted anime It hasn't become obvious what
>the gain is. At best we are back to where we were before. We have Fushigi
>.. well at least we have two versions of it ... where is the benefit? Looks
>like CA just spent a lot of time redoing what Tomadachi had already done.
Only because they didn't want to share their scripts. I'd say it *did* promote
anime; looks like you'll be able to get FY from a variety of places now.
Oh jeez, let's not rehash this!
>I'm still trying to
>figure out how CA subbing Evangelion for "IN HOUSE" promotes anime. As I'm
>buying the commercial releases (and wondering if I really want to spend in
>excess of $400 to see the series to completion.) but I kind of think I'm
>doing a bit more for anime by supporting the company that bought the rights
to
>the series.
OH GOD-IN-HEAVEN AND JESUS ABOVE!!!!! You've got *balls* to imply that CA is
doing something *wrong* by PAYING for translations PAYING FOR THE LD's and
DOING THEIR OWN WORK on subbing something that is/will be commercially
available!!! So we like our own translation and subtitles better, is there
anything wrong with that?!? In addition, SEVERAL OTHER SUBBING PROJECTS are
ongoing in addition to Evangelion. We just don't do ONE FRIGGIN SERIES to the
exclusion of all others. "Doing a bit more for anime" just because you, the
high-and-mighty one, is buying a few tapes?!?!? OH JESUS, this is just too
fucking much to take!!!!
:>> 2. They believe that each individual should do his own work. Basically
if
:>> you take a Tomadachi script ... no matter how you play with it your still
:>> working off of Karen's and Mastomo's spin on things... You can't create
:>> anything new. They don't distribute scripts so people will create new
visions
:>> of what the anime is about... visions free of Karen's and Mastomo's ideas
:>
:>The exact opposite philosophy of how to create a market. If everyone is
:>doing his own work on the same show, there will be lots of variations of
:>one show. Not very exciting, not benefitial to anime.
>So one subbing group taking another groups scripts and stamping thier own
name
>on them does benefit anime? It would seem that CA could have used thier time
>to sub other series rather than worrying about one already being subbed.
AGAIN, Tomodachi gets credit in the scripts. How we use our time is OUR
business, not yours, high-and-mighty one!!! SHEEEESH!!!!!
In the past, it
:>has been accepted that distributing fan tapes was illegal, but since it
:>supposedly was done in the interest of promoting anime which in turn
:>would help bring legal anime over here, most everyone turned a blind
:>eye. If a group is not acting in the interest of promoting anime, which
:>Tomo is not by limiting distribution, then that prompts one to wonder
:>why they are in it. Artistic expression? ^_^
:>
:>Translating is not about ideas or visions. It's about accurately
:>getting across what the bloody folks are saying.
>Ok lets see Tomadachi seemed to be doing a reasonable good job of accurately
>getting across what Fushigi was about... even CA admits to this. Now given
>that why did CA even need to get involved with the Fushigi series in the
first
>place?
I think this has been discussed before.
Robert L.
<disgusted>
Angst-sensei
In article <37afq9i...@mornir.gweep.bc.ca>,
Brian Edmonds <edm...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
>Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> writes:
>> Enrique Conty wrote: YOU ALL SUCK!!
>> What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
>> proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team.
>
>putting the blame quite fairly across the whole lot of loons involved in
>this debacle.
Anime Central: Midwest(!) anime and manga convention coming in April 1998.
New web URL: http://www.acen.org/
Central Anime: Fansubbing/script transscribing outfit whose policy of
"Scripts At All Cost" is one I personally disagree with.
Enrique Conty: Not to be confused with either of the above, Conty is a
short, scrappy type (like Harlan Ellison!) whose
personal philosophies are beholden to no man,
organization, country or G(h)od!
And yes, he's blaming everybody for what is surely destined to be voted
1997's "Thread That Would Not Die". ^_^
--Angst-sensei
(Wishes the thread would die.)
--
/-\ ** Jeff Williamson *** Lightfall Integrated Media *** Chicago, IL ** /-\
|A| doca...@mcs.com ^_^ Anime Central Home Page: http://www.acen.org/ |9|
|C| *==> "In every revolution, there is one man with a vision." <==* |8|
\-/ * =If you're Friends with Key, well, then, you're friends with me= * \-/
David Crowe
Ferdinand A. Pelayo <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
: Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) writes:
: > I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
: I agree that most of the bickering is stupid and isn't going anywhere,
: but I'll gladly contest you on this:
I agree too, but I'll contest your contestation. :)
: > - To Karen Duffy: get off your high horse, and face the facts. You're
: > not an oh-so-pure innocent victim, you're not on the side of light or
: > goodness or anything like that. You're a crook and a thief, and you
: > have no business complaining about people doing to you what has become
: > your business to do to others.
: This seems to be on the same level as the flames directed at Trish
: Ledoux for screwing over pre-Viz Ranma fans for her part in the dubbing
: atrocities committed. You obviously don't KNOW the person too well other
: than for what she's "done". (some people obviously hasn't spent any time on
: the MB ML before spouting "crybaby" all over this flamewar) If all you can
: make of her is that she's no better than the average pre-pubescent whiner
: just from one announcement, you can take your opinion and stick it.
I don't follow. No one disputes the fact that Karen Duffy is a fansubber.
No one disputes that fansubs are illegal. Conty feels that Duffy has no
right to complain about her stolen work being stolen by others.
Trish Ledoux has a job with the company that has the rights to Ranma 1/2.
Dubbing Ranma 1/2 is her job, one she has the legal right to do any way
she sees fit.
I don't see how needing to know someone enters into it. His comments are
based on Duffy's known, public activities and statements.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe No generalization is true
-not even this one.
Dwayne Gregory
Wes Taylor wrote:
>
> >Wes Taylor wrote:
> >That's a flame, I know, but some people can be so dense.
>
> Gratuitously insulting the general populace is not a good way to start.
Some people need reason to come to their senses, some need a
sledgehammer. The majority of writers on this thread work from pure
emotional responses.
> A person is who they are. Sorry, Dwayne, people are not Borg. I owe those
> around me only the fulfilment of any responsibilities I accept by my actions
> or words. I owe you nothing as we have never met nor been in any contact save
> this set of messages.
It is a predicament of modern society that people don't think about
things beyond what is required for their own gratification. What was
that famous quote in Superman, "It's a wonder his brain produces enough
electricity to keep his legs moving."
I'm not speaking directly about ME. I'm talking about those multitudes
without which you'd still be watching Saturday morning cartoons.
> >Let me ask you this. Where would Tomodachi be if there weren't other
> >fansubbers? Would she have a subtitle program to use if she was the
> >only subtitler?
>
> Subtitlers are commercial products done for reasons that have nada to do with
> fansubs. Yes, they would have been around and she could have used them.
That's not really right. There are programs that you can use to do
crude subtitling, but they are not made for that purpose and it shows.
But if you think she would have used them, I'll give one point to you.
>
> >Would she have rec.arts.anime to advertise in if she was the only fansubber?
> Would >there be any customers if no one knew about anime? Would she know
> about anime at >all if it wasn't for other people subtitling/copying years
> before Tomodachi was born?
>
> The existence of the hobby in no way obligates her to do things in some
> specific way. This is not a sporting hobby, it is appreciation of a foreign
> film genre.
This is the common view of people nowadays. "It exists. I don't care
where it came from, I just want to take advantage of it. Obligation?
Recognition? Phooie, I didn't sign no contract, I owe nothing to no
one." But interestingly enough, doesn't that apply to fansubbers as
well?
"The existence of the hobby in no way obligates her to do things in some
specific way." Your words.
"The existance of the script in no way obligates CA to do things in some
specific way." My words.
I'm glad that we agree that CA is obsolved of all wrong doing.
>
> >The answers to all these questions is a negative.
>
> ]Bzzt. Wrong answer.
Bzzt. Easy to say. Prove it. Show me the mechanisms for success.
> 1) you are advocating the expropriation of work without recompense and against
> the wishes of the victim. That is either theft (if the victim is alowed to
> walk away) or slavery (if the victimis compelled to stay).
The work was freely given and available by buying the tape or getting a
copy from someone who bought the tape. You know what bought means? It
means recompense. It is too late after the sale to start putting in
clauses.
Check your definitions of slavery. Slavery was grabbing someone,
putting them in a boat, sailing them to a new country and making them do
work they didn't want for just room and board. That's slavery.
>
> >Fushigi Yuugi and Marmalade Boy are not solely the work of Karen.
>
> The translation and timing is or is bought by her.
The timing is CA's on CA's script. The translation was bought by those
who purchased her tapes. The mechanism that got the whole project going
was provided by those who enlightened her to anime and the market that
had to exist for Tomo to subsidize costs with tape sales was created by
others. In the whole scheme of things, those two works are just part of
the big picture. It is called cause and effect or if you wish,
enablement. The actions of others enabled her to do her thing.
> All this is very nice but Karen is in no way obligated to act in any manner
> other than as she wishes by it.
Then no problem, as CA or myself are in no way obligated to act in any
manner other than as we wish. If that means transcribing freely sold
tapes, I'm glad I have your approval.
> >Wrong. Let's use football as an example to put it in perspective.
> >Karen is like a running back who struck it big but forgot that there are
> >10 other people on the team, without whom she would be nothing. She
> >forgot about the coaches who taught her, the trainers who got her into
> >shape, the linemen who blocked for her and the football greats that
> >worked for virtually nothing for years just because they loved the game
> >so that she could reap the benefits of a rich salary and public
> acknowledgment. Some football players, when they strike it big, pay back
> >the scholarship the school gave them, and give gifts to their linemen,
> >acknowledging that without their help, they would be nothing.
>
> How did we go from a hobby to proffesional sports? You need to work on the
> analogies here Dwayne.
Tomodachi sells tapes. That's professional. Not legal, but
professional. The analogy fits.
>
> That aside, Karen would be a talented subtitler if the rest of the hobby
> dropped dead. She would not have an audience, but that does not lessen her
> achievements, only her enjoyment of them. If the linebacker did not have
> talent, he would not 壮trike it big'. Without the others he would not be part
> of that team, but he would still have the talent and the team could find 10
> others to fill those roles.
There are lots of very talented football players washing dishes for a
living. It takes more than just talent.
> >It is not sick or slimey to say that someone should pay back what has
> >been done for them in the manner that it was done for them. Like my
> >friend, I copied for years because people had done so for me. I
> >subtitled for people because someone had subtitled for me. I gave out
> >all the scripts I've ever worked on and will continue to do so, because
> >people gave me scripts when I needed them. I'd feel like an ingrate if
> >I withheld any scripts. I'm no harder on Tomodachi than I am on myself.
>
> You are actually far worse than I had thought.
Amazing. Imagine the concept that kindness should be repaid. Forgive
me for being so dense! I should have turned around and told people
"Sorry, so what if people subtitled for me, so what if people copied for
me, so what if they donated their time to run cons so I could enjoy
myself? Fuck you, it was freely given, I'm taking advantage of it and I
don't owe you shit!"
Sad. I'm glad I'm not like you. I enjoy having a conscience. I enjoy
repaying kindness. I think everyone should. If you think that makes me
an ogre, you are one screwed up individual. I've heard that some people
have no conscience. I see that they are correct.
Remind me not to turn my back on you in a dark alley.
Dwayne Gregory
Jinnai wrote:
>
> :>In the end, it comes down to respecting wishes. Does one have to? No.
> :>Should one? Depends. Is it right or wrong? Neither. Whether a wish
> :>should be respected depends on the wish and what its effect would be.
> :>Respecting her wish limits distribution. This in turn limits the
> :>promotion of anime.
>
> Did it? To whom? The few people with the boxed sets?
Unless things have changed dramatically in the last few years, anime is
still a bunch of small groups whose borders often don't intersect. Many
fans still are not even on internet. Many have no idea Tomodachi
exists, but they know Joe Bob and his amazing Amiga. But Joe Bob
doesn't know about Tomodachi, but he know about the various BBS boards
that carry scripts. So without ever having contacted Tomodachi, fans
can enjoy Tomodachi subtitles and be thanking Tomodachi for their
wonderful contribution. Those, of course, who have a conscience. (Not
a barb at you. Ignore it.)
> So one subbing group taking another groups scripts and stamping thier own name
> on them does benefit anime? It would seem that CA could have used thier time
> to sub other series rather than worrying about one already being subbed.
I've download the hated FY scripts. Tomodachi is given full credit for
the scripts. CA calls themselves remasterers. "Remastered by..."
denotes nothing more than the final action of actually creating or
"rolling" a subtitled master. It does not infer timing, scripting,
translation.
Dwayne Gregory
Wade Missimer wrote:
>
> Enrique Conty wrote:
>
> > In short...
> >
> > YOU ALL SUCK!!
> >
> > --
> > Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
> > Come to Anime Central, Chicago's First Anime Convention!
> > April 3-5 1998, Holiday Inn O'Hare, Chicago, IL
> > Visit our website at http://www.acen.org
>
> post, he's managed to offend most of the anime fans in the US. Come to
> Chicago and see the Anime Clown! What's next in the Anime Central PR
> blitz? Spiiting on little old ladies?
Excuse me, but this a perfect example of someone seeing and believing
only what he wants. Conty equally insulted all parties involved in his
post. Spokesman for Anime Central? Oops. See. Proves my point. I'm
also dense enough to see Central Anime when it is Anime Central. I
definitely rest my case of most of fandom being denser than a post. ^_^
Katrina Spencer
Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) writes:
> I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
> YOU ALL SUCK!!
::wild applause from Ottawa::
Conty-kun breaks from his one-line tradition and blasts those who need it
and gives the rest of us a giggle. Truly, this is a day for anime fandom.
::happy sigh::
/return to lurker mode.
Katchan
--
Responses to this address will be forwarded to my internet address at
sd...@achilles.net -- just so ya know ^_-
-- Katchan
Tomar
In article <37afq9i...@mornir.gweep.bc.ca>,
Brian Edmonds <edm...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> writes:
>> Enrique Conty wrote: YOU ALL SUCK!!
>> proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team.
First off, to Mr. Wade Missmer:
I'm quite happy with Conty's involvement in Anime Central 98.
A person's opinions on fansubbing does not indicate their ability
to help run an Anime convention. If you have a problem with
his politics, that's fine but don't dare rip into his
association with Anime Central.
--
Tomar: aka to...@iastate.edu |"I've got a paper, a project,
--- A slightly mysterious net entity --- |and 2 assignments to do....
Full Server Home Page: |It's time to watch Anime."
http://helser14.res.iastate.edu/tomar/anime/anime.html
EX: The Online World of Anime & Manga
http://www.ex.org/
Jinnai
In message <01bc0385$bb59f5e0$6f535fcc@truncheon> - "Robert M Lowrey"
<ur...@southwind.net> writes:
:>
:>
:>
:>Jinnai <jin...@texas.net> wrote in article <5bkaco$s...@news3.texas.net>...
:>In message <32DC5B...@gte.net> - Dwayne Gregory <ret...@gte.net>Tue, 14
:>Jan 1997 20:21:16 -0800 writes:
:>Hey!! Bozo-boy!!! The scripts, as released, *credit* Tomodachi for their
:>efforts.
Bozo-boy? not feeling well Robert? Your not usually this polite.
:>And, I might point out, this is an example that FY *WILL* be available,
:>regardless of what Karen does or doesn't do. Do the tapes from that page cost
:>as much as the ones from Tomodachi?
The tapes cost more... and the tapes are credited as being CA being the
subtitler... the web page makes no reference nor gives any credit to Tomadachi
in anyway.
:>>How did we gain anything? If it promoted anime It hasn't become obvious what
:>>the gain is. At best we are back to where we were before. We have Fushigi
:>>.. well at least we have two versions of it ... where is the benefit? Looks
:>>like CA just spent a lot of time redoing what Tomadachi had already done.
:>
:>Only because they didn't want to share their scripts. I'd say it *did* promote
:>anime; looks like you'll be able to get FY from a variety of places now.
Tomadachi tapes have always been available from a number of sources.
:>>I'm still trying to
:>>figure out how CA subbing Evangelion for "IN HOUSE" promotes anime. As I'm
:>>buying the commercial releases (and wondering if I really want to spend in
:>>excess of $400 to see the series to completion.) but I kind of think I'm
:>>doing a bit more for anime by supporting the company that bought the rights
:>to
:>>the series.
:>
:>OH GOD-IN-HEAVEN AND JESUS ABOVE!!!!! You've got *balls* to imply that CA is
:>doing something *wrong* by PAYING for translations PAYING FOR THE LD's and
:>DOING THEIR OWN WORK on subbing something that is/will be commercially
Lets review ... according to Todd Evangelion scripts were available long
before A.D.V. announced the had purchased the rights.
So you've already got the scripts... according to Todd you've had them for
quite a while. Now why are you wasting your efforts paying for translations
that already exist? Wasn't this your reason for taking Karen's translations
so you didn't have to pay for what had already been translated?
And if your really interested in paying for the LD's why not buy the ones AD
visions is releasing... that way you support the Japanese Creators AND the
American company that bought the rights and made it available to the English
speaking audience.
:>available!!! So we like our own translation and subtitles better, is there
:>anything wrong with that?!? In addition, SEVERAL OTHER SUBBING PROJECTS are
:>ongoing in addition to Evangelion. We just don't do ONE FRIGGIN SERIES to the
:>exclusion of all others. "Doing a bit more for anime" just because you, the
:>high-and-mighty one, is buying a few tapes?!?!? OH JESUS, this is just too
:>fucking much to take!!!!
Ah I'm glad to see your feeling better... I was quite afraid you had lost your
lovely way with words. It's no wonder CA has you as their spokesman.
:>>So one subbing group taking another groups scripts and stamping thier own
:>name
:>>on them does benefit anime? It would seem that CA could have used thier time
:>>to sub other series rather than worrying about one already being subbed.
:>
:>AGAIN, Tomodachi gets credit in the scripts. How we use our time is OUR
:>business, not yours, high-and-mighty one!!! SHEEEESH!!!!!
Exactly... at no point have I told you what you should sub or what you should
not sub. I have merely tried to point out how illogical it is for you to
spend your time doing what someone else is already doing.
Once again I thought part of CA's arguement was that you were trying to stop
duplication of effort. You've duplicated the effort of Tomadachi and A.D.
Visions. Where as I don't think you have anything more to worry about
Tomadachi and any complaints they might have you could have problems
explaining why you are producing fansubs of A.D. Visions products. But then
you wouldn't have to explain that to me. I'm sure some high paid lawyer will
be more than happy to discuss the matter with such a reasonable, intelligent,
spokesman as yourself.
:>>Ok lets see Tomadachi seemed to be doing a reasonable good job of accurately
:>>getting across what Fushigi was about... even CA admits to this. Now given
:>>that why did CA even need to get involved with the Fushigi series in the
:>first
:>>place?
:>
:>I think this has been discussed before.
Yeah but I do so love hearing from you Robert. Reading your beautiful
retelling of the story just sends chills down my spine. Sometimes I even
imagine what it would be like to have James Earl Jones read aloud your
inspired words.
:>
:>
:>Robert L.
:><disgusted>
Oh that's just because you haven't called anybody a weenie in a few weeks...
don't worry I'm sure you'll get over this momentary bout of civility.
Jinnai
<amused>
Chichiri-chan
Katrina Spencer <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in article
<5blgvf$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
> Enrique Conty (co...@rtsg.mot.com) writes:
> > I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
> > In short...
> > YOU ALL SUCK!!
>
> ::wild applause from Ottawa::
Yare yare na no da....
I'm not one for continuing an argument quite so long as this thread's gone
on, and everyone's got their own right to express their opinion, but... did
you HAVE to do the wild applause thing....? ^.^;;;;
Anyhow, my two cents....
It's too bad that Tomodachi has chosen to stop subtitling Fushigi Yuugi.
After episode #36, I'd love to see the rest of it subtitled, but if it's
not to be, it's not to be. If a commercial company picks it up a long the
way, I guess we'll all be able to see it subtitled... if not, people can
either buy the LDs and watch it raw... etc, etc, etc....
*Chichiri-chan picks up her hat, and returns to lurker mode as well....
Chichiri-chan
--
*DA!!*
Chichiri, Fushigi Yuugi
(too many episodes to list)
e-mail: mi-...@autobahn.org
alternate: 96f...@dvc.edu
homepage URL:
http://www.autobahn.org/~mi-chan/
maintainer of Chichiri Image Shrine
http://www.autobahn.org/~mi-chan/Anime/FY/Chichiri.htm
C. Mitch Hagmaier
Wade Missimer wrote:
>
> Enrique Conty wrote:
>
> >
> > YOU ALL SUCK!!
>
> post, he's managed to offend most of the anime fans in the US. Come
> to Chicago and see the Anime Clown! What's next in the Anime Central
> PR blitz? Spiiting on little old ladies?
>
>
so long that the oxygen depravation has curdled his sense of proportion
and memory) I'm going to have to pull a Voltaire and defend his right
to say it. I, myself, got into a hella big pot 'o boiling water a
few years back because of some published statements while I was acting
as a con rep. (Surprisingly enough, it involved Viz, and indirectly
Trish Ledoux) Conty, unlike yours truly, was not speaking in the name
of the con with one breath and maligning someone's good name in the
next. No, he was just slandering people on his own time. This is
not very pretty, but it's not something you can blame on AnimeCen.
BTW: Conty, you're an elitist jackass with more money than sense.
Ain't it cute how compsci types get all law-and-order the moment they
start making money? Let them eat cake, indeed. No wonder you're such
a big Rose of Versailles fan.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Ryan Mathews
In <5bn6oq$r...@news3.texas.net> jin...@texas.net (Jinnai) writes:
>
>In message <01bc0385$bb59f5e0$6f535fcc@truncheon> - "Robert M Lowrey"
><ur...@southwind.net> writes:
>
>Tomadachi tapes have always been available from a number of sources.
And I'll ask it again: Karen doesn't mind her script being distributed
to anyone who asks for it, as long as it's stored on a copy of her sub?
No reply? You don't think this is odd? Or will you still insist she's
protecting her precious timing codes?
>Once again I thought part of CA's arguement was that you were trying
>to stop duplication of effort.
So if CA(K) ever has a good reason to retranslate something, you're
saying that they should therefore never use an already translated
script? That's crap.
Robert, do yourself a favor and quit arguing with this guy. It's not
doing you or anyone else any good. Anyone with half a brain can see
his position holds no water. And for those who don't have half a
brain, well, hell, arguing with them is a waste of effort. I give up.
I'm out of this thread. I've already convinced anyone who can be
convinced. All that remains are the people for whom flamewars are a
hobby, and those people will never see logic, because they're not
interested in seeing it.
C. Mitch Hagmaier
Angst-sensei wrote:
>
>
> Enrique Conty: Not to be confused with either of the above, Conty is
> a
> short, scrappy type (like Harlan Ellison!) whose
> personal philosophies are beholden to no man,
> organization, country or G(h)od!
>
> And yes, he's blaming everybody for what is surely destined to be
> voted 1997's "Thread That Would Not Die". ^_^
Ah, yes, it's eating up bandwidth that could be more profitably
used by GRIT posts.
IT'S SIGNAL, DAMNIT! They might be a bunch of morons (I'm making
no judgements) but it's on-topic, timely, and has produced some
thought-provoking concepts (which is more than I can say for the
rest of the shopworn threads in this sad pseudonewsgroup).
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Anyways, any thread that exposes Conty as the Nixonite I've-got-mine
dickhead he is can't be all bad. Hey Conty: remember Anime Keiken?
Hypocrite.
Tomar
In article <32dd278e...@news.achilles.net>,
Mark David <mad...@achilles.net> wrote:
>co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>
>>I realized a few years back that many fansubbers do their thing because
>>of ego or greed first, and because of their love of the artform second.
>
>I think you're being pessimistic, Conty.
>
>There is the bitching and the hoarding and all the other little
>nonsense fans like to impose on each other BUT it all centers around
>anime. If greed and ego came first, there are far more popular and
>lucrative hobbies to be in. There IS bitching and hoarding and
>flaming, etc, precisely BECAUSE anime is so important to the parties
>involved.
Eh? People aren't bitching and moaning because there
was a degradation of the quality of Fushigi Yuugi....it
was because some people have access to the translated/timed
scripts while some do not.
Not to mention the tiny fact that if people are bitching
and moaning about anything, it certainly isn't out of respect
for Anime artistry nor industry. That's not something I'm
going to proudly boost to my friends about Anime.
Angst-sensei
In article <5bni6q$r...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Ryan Mathews <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <32DE8C...@xnet.com> Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> writes:
>>
>>According to an e-mail from Conty, he's [Anime Central's] Hotel
>>Liason.
>
>So *he's* responsible for the $90/night room rates??
Bzzt! That's just the lay of the land. Try to find a convention in
this area with hotel rates that are too much cheaper.
I've been here eight years, and have been really hard pressed to find
inexpensive hotels equipped to handle conventions.
--Angst-sensei
(Being in the Midwest should make up for a lot of that.... ^_^)
apollo
In article <32DFAD...@xnet.com>, Wade Missimer wrote:
>I'm very curious as to why someone like Conty with his long declared
>hatred for the general anime fans (redeclared in this thread), would
>participate in the creation of a convention for those very fans? It's
>not just those fans who participate in fansubbing, Conty finds almost
>all anime fans fall short in his estimation in some way. And what kind
>of convention would associate themselves with him? Is "YOU ALL SUCK!!"
>the new motto for Anime Central? Should make for a very different kind
>of anime convention.
>
I'm not going to get into Conty's reasonig for involving himself with
Anime Central at all but he has been doing a fine job as Hotel Liason.
>Let's see, Conty makes an offensive statement about a large group of
>Anime fans with a .sig that advertises Anime Central, but I shouldn't
>rip his association with Anime Central. I suggest you minimally ask him
>to remove the Anime Central lines from his .sig. He's not a positive ad
>for ACen. And I suggest you re-evaluate your priorities. You seem more
>concerned about protecting Conty than anime fans.
Let me put my two cents in here. What is said is said. It is not the
opinion of Anime Central NOR is it my opinion or that of all the ACen
staffers. It is HIS. I am in fact surprised that anyone could make the
connection. Just because Conty is a member of ACen staff does not mean
that he makes any decisions about the convention itself. He takes
questions from myself and the rest of the department heads to the hotel
and brings back answers and that is it.
Rest assured that I talked to Conty about his remark and expressed my
displeasure. He is also removing references to Anime Central from his
.sig.
Tony Dellett
Chairman
Anime Central '98
Enrique Conty
>What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central!
As I expected, I'm already getting hell from Anime Central staffers
about this. On deference to the staff and members of the Midwest's
best, biggest, only anime convention, coming to you in 1998, the
following disclaimer:
1) My opinions are not meant to represent the policies of any business
organization, religion, nation, planet, star system, galaxy, or
space-time continuum I am associated with.
2) Said opinions sure as heck don't represent the opinions of Anime Central.
I'm only the hotel liason, for cryin' out loud!
>Come to Chicago and see the Anime Clown!
In recent Anime Central staff meetings, the idea has been suggested to
have an Enrique Conty Dunk Tank at the con. The way they figure it,
plenty of people here would pay good money to see me suffer public
humiliation. If you have an opinion in favor/against this, feel free
to visit http://www.acen.org and let them know!
>Put a muzzle on the guy!
They can ask me to change my sig, they can fire me, but they can't silence me.
--
Enrique Conty
co...@cig.mot.com
http://www.mcs.net/~conty
"There's what's legal, there's what's right, then there's what we do."
cheng
> :>Hey!! Bozo-boy!!! The scripts, as released, *credit* Tomodachi for their
> :>efforts.
>
> Bozo-boy? not feeling well Robert? Your not usually this polite.
behavior and response is little bit too much. Let's not involve in name
calling.
> The tapes cost more... and the tapes are credited as being CA being the
> subtitler... the web page makes no reference nor gives any credit to Tomadachi
> in anyway
In CA version of Fushigi Yuugi if I remember correctly, Central Anime
gave credit to Karen Duffy for translation. So stop this non-sense.
> :>>How did we gain anything? If it promoted anime It hasn't become obvious what
> :>>the gain is. At best we are back to where we were before. We have Fushigi
> :>>.. well at least we have two versions of it ... where is the benefit? Looks
> :>>like CA just spent a lot of time redoing what Tomadachi had already done.
> :>
> :>Only because they didn't want to share their scripts. I'd say it *did* promote
> :>anime; looks like you'll be able to get FY from a variety of places now.
>
> Tomadachi tapes have always been available from a number of sources.
Yes, they have been. I am carrying them too. I also have Central
Anime's tapes too. They are both in excellent quality. To tell you the
truth, there are a lot of benefits for having 2 version of Fushigi
Yuugi. First of all, due to mass dubbing, Tomodachi's FY are degraded.
Their first gen tapes doesn't look like 1st gen quality. One of my
trading partner who got Tomodachi's FY 29-32 had a tape that only has
sound. Funny isn't it? It is completely blue screen and only sound
coming out. Lately, their late Marmalade Boy SVHS tape looks worse
than my 3rd generation SVHS Arctic's Magical Knight Rayearth. Central
Anime in otherhand has better quality and they represent the purity of
subbing. In excellent anime like Fushigi Yuugi, I want to get the best
quality possible --- it's the dream of all the serious collectors.
> Lets review ... according to Todd Evangelion scripts were available long
> before A.D.V. announced the had purchased the rights.
> So you've already got the scripts... according to Todd you've had them for
> quite a while. Now why are you wasting your efforts paying for translations
> that already exist? Wasn't this your reason for taking Karen's translations
> so you didn't have to pay for what had already been translated?
> And if your really interested in paying for the LD's why not buy the ones AD
> visions is releasing... that way you support the Japanese Creators AND the
> American company that bought the rights and made it available to the English
> speaking audience.
Todd and Central Anime started doing Evangelion before it was picked up
and released by AD vision. They have right to sub them even if it's
released by AD Vision AS LONG AS THEY DON'T DISTRIBUTE to public or
anybody else. Why are you making fuss out of nothing Jinnai? Todd and
Central Anime is already helping Japanese Creator by buying the LDs.
Why wouldn't you buy the LDs directly from Japan instead of purchasing
what you called illegal fan-sub from Tomodachi?
> :>available!!! So we like our own translation and subtitles better, is there
> :>anything wrong with that?!? In addition, SEVERAL OTHER SUBBING PROJECTS are
> :>ongoing in addition to Evangelion. We just don't do ONE FRIGGIN SERIES to the
> :>exclusion of all others. "Doing a bit more for anime" just because you, the
> :>high-and-mighty one, is buying a few tapes?!?!? OH JESUS, this is just too
> :>fucking much to take!!!!
>
> Ah I'm glad to see your feeling better... I was quite afraid you had lost your
> lovely way with words. It's no wonder CA has you as their spokesman.
Robert obviously is losing his temper because of this annoying thread
that is going on even after several weeks. However, CA is one of the
generous Subbing group that has helped other anime subbing groups
throughout the year. Hecto, Anime West, TAAS and some other nameless
subbing groups all over the U.S. However, your comment is also rude
too. Did Tomodachi hired you as their spokesman? Are you their
lawyer? Don't miss understand me but I just want to stop the boxing
match by both side. karen said she doesn't want to fight or argue with
Central Anime. SO WHAT'S DONE IS DONE.
In anime world, transcribing fan-sub is a fair game if you distribute!
No one has the absolute right to the script. If you want to keep the
script to yourself, then you shouldn't distribute. The more version
there are out there, more people will able to contact with anime and
more anime lovers will grow. Isn't that the purpose of Fan-subbing
anime?
> Exactly... at no point have I told you what you should sub or what you should
> not sub. I have merely tried to point out how illogical it is for you to
> spend your time doing what someone else is already doing.
First of all, why would be illogical for re-mastering the eps that you
have LDs of? Once people are really into anime, they want the best
quality. Why don't you tell everybody not to do KOR because Arctic has
done it already?
> Once again I thought part of CA's arguement was that you were trying to stop
> duplication of effort. You've duplicated the effort of Tomadachi and A.D.
> Visions. Where as I don't think you have anything more to worry about
> Tomadachi and any complaints they might have you could have problems
> explaining why you are producing fansubs of A.D. Visions products. But then
> you wouldn't have to explain that to me. I'm sure some high paid lawyer will
> be more than happy to discuss the matter with such a reasonable, intelligent,
> spokesman as yourself.
I believe it wasn't CA's sole purpose to stop distribution effort of
Tomodachi. If it was, they would also remaster the Marmalade Boy when
it was so hot to the anime lovers. Also, they would have to distribute
because it will be more effective to compete against other distribution
to shut them out. However, they didn't do that... why? because
Tomodachi is producing good quality anime to more people.
Unfortunately, many people are starting to complain the quality of
Tomodachi's FY and degradation in the Quality due to massive
distribution. For excellent anime series like FY, I am certain that
Central Anime want to get the best quality possible. And if Tomodachi
is producing so so quality, then it's only logical that Central Anime
Re-master them using better (not over heated) equipment.
As far as A.D Vision's Evangelion goes, I know Central Anime forced
everybody to stop the distribution/trading of Evangelion. Even if they
continue to subtitle them, they would still keep it to themselves...
not to others. How does this hurt the A.D vision? no way that I can
think of in selling their product. Todd bought the LD for Evangelion
directly from Japan even before AD vision got the right. Todd can do
whatever he wants with his property as long as it doesn't hurt AD
vision.(not distributing it) Sale of AD V's evangelion is slow because
they are overpriced, not because central anime is subbing it.
> Yeah but I do so love hearing from you Robert. Reading your beautiful
> retelling of the story just sends chills down my spine. Sometimes I even
> imagine what it would be like to have James Earl Jones read aloud your
> inspired words.
I tried to understand both side but Jinnai has gone too far. I was
angery at his scheme of trying to irritate Robert so that whatever
Robert says reflects the entire Central Anime. We are all dismayed by
Karen's decision to not to sub Fushigi Yuugi. Which I believe is also to
her selfishness... What is the point of hooking hundreds of anime fans
out there on Fushigi Yuugi and decided to quit? If she really cared
about anime community, she should have finish them. If her reason for
quitting was due to quitting of translator or personal problem, it would
be understandable. However, her excuse was because Central Anime
transcribed FY. And then she told people in the mailing list that she's
stopping just because "dear thief" stole her translation. From this, I
felt that she is trying to get the sympathy from Loyal Tomodachi
buyers(which I account around several hundreds) so that they can all
criticize Central Anime. She could have said she's quitting due to her
personal problem but she didn't --- which meant that she intentionally
wanted to punish the CA. Think about this carefully.
I am not another spokesperson for Central Anime but I am trying to end
this long thread in peaceful fashion... in a way that most silent
subbers and anime lovers out there thinks. I will repeat this several
times: Transcribing is not such a big deal... I repeat... as long as
you give them credit. If you don't want people to transcribe your hard/
expensive work, then don't distribute... This means you are only worried
about yourself... not the anime community as Tomodachi and you are
claiming to be.
> :>
> :>
> :>Robert L.
> :><disgusted>
> Oh that's just because you haven't called anybody a weenie in a few weeks...
> don't worry I'm sure you'll get over this momentary bout of civility.
>
> Jinnai
> <amused>
--James
<sickened>
***************************************************************************
James Kim - Biochemistry 1998
Check our official web page at http://members.tripod.com/~AnimeWest
Check our unofficial Anime West page at
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/7917/SubZero.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Yuu
Head of Network relationship/distribution/ Subtitling for Anime West
Founder Anime West
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danielle Scott
In article <32DF55...@csrlink.net>,
C. Mitch Hagmaier <kyo...@csrlink.net> wrote:
>
>BTW: Conty, you're an elitist jackass with more money than sense.
>Ain't it cute how compsci types get all law-and-order the moment they
>start making money? Let them eat cake, indeed. No wonder you're such
>a big Rose of Versailles fan.
Hey now! I think Conty is one of the few people who has big cohones to
post such things! Man if you want elitist you should go to #anime!, full
of them there ;).
YOU ALL SUCK!
--
Danielle Scott I am root of all that is evil,
pir...@pirotas.com But you can call me cookie.
http://www.pirotas.com - Water Fire Burn
Robert M Lowrey
Ryan Mathews <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5bnjr1$c...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> Robert, do yourself a favor and quit arguing with this guy. It's not
> doing you or anyone else any good. Anyone with half a brain can see
> his position holds no water. And for those who don't have half a
> brain, well, hell, arguing with them is a waste of effort. I give up.
> I'm out of this thread. I've already convinced anyone who can be
> convinced. All that remains are the people for whom flamewars are a
> hobby, and those people will never see logic, because they're not
> interested in seeing it.
> --
I *HAVE* been trying to ignore this thread and limit my posts. What I am
concerned about is the use of the "media spin doctor" tactics (i.e. you stand
up and shout that Central Anime is a "thief" (or equally bad things) over and
over and over) and sooner or later, everyone begins to believe it. I'm *NOT*
going to let that kind of thing happen. I think most of my posts are pretty
tame; yes, a few are flaming, but I think, justified in light of the facts. If
not, tough shit, it's a public, unmoderated forum.
It's real interesting that NO ONE will refute the "Math Made Easy II" post, NO
ONE will shut up after Todd or myself post FACTS; they just scream "thief!"
and keep ranting. I'm tired of arguing with fucking minions; get Karen or
Bruce on here and end this; if they won't defend themselves then we can all
draw our own conclusions. If they don't like "conflict", then they shouldn't
have stopped distributing tapes, IMHO. Karen's "non-conflict" tactic of
stopping distribution and trying to get the fans to go after CA is just pretty
damn low. Trying to get others to fight your battles is never a good idea. If
Tomodachi had *EVER* DIRECTLY contacted Todd/CA and expressed an
opinion/threat/rant/etc, all of this discussion might have some meaning; since
they didn't, (Todd contacted them, remember?, NOT the other way around and
they NEVER said anything about stopping FY in those phone calls) they and
their minions can go piss up a rope. (and that's the kindest thing I could
post here)
Robert L.
Milt Hathaway
C. Mitch Hagmaier wrote:
> Ah, yes, it's eating up bandwidth that could be more profitably
> used by GRIT posts.
>
> IT'S SIGNAL, DAMNIT!
<snip>
Whatever.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Milt Hathaway | KOR - Tenchi Muyo! - Sailormoon |
| kyo...@basinlink.com | Oldfield - Miyazaki - Zappa - Takahashi |
| Midland, Texas |---------------------------------------------|
| 89 Wineberry GoldWing |My inferiority complex is smaller than yours!|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Mathews
In <32DE8C...@xnet.com> Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> writes:
>
>According to an e-mail from Conty, he's [Anime Central's] Hotel
>Liason.
So *he's* responsible for the $90/night room rates??
David J. Kelk
: Well, Milt, as the saying goes, "As you sow, so shall you reap".
: You're right, CA(K) did something rude to Tomodachi. But since
: Tomodachi had been rude to CA(K) first, they have no right to complain.
: --
: ---------- Ryan Mathews
Whatever happened to "Turn the other cheek" and "Two wrongs dont make a
right" then? Sorry, but I prefer the "Kinder, gentler (North-)[1]
America" myself.
[1] Being Canadian and all <g>
--
Lightspeed,
David
http://aries.phys.yorku.ca/physics/kelk/index.html
GS (2.1) d@ H- s+:++ g+ p? !au a-(a?) w+++ v--(v++)(v*) c++++(c+) U+>++ U- S+
P? L>+ !3 N++(+) E K++ W+(W---) M--(M?) V(V--) -po+ Y+ t+@ 5+++ j++ R+ G?(G')
tv (tv-)(tv--) b D++ B--- e+++(e*) u+(u-) h f+(f*) n---(----) 53
Andrew John Brewer
: - To Central Anime: you guys are scum, but you knew this already.
: It was only a matter of time until you got into *really* hot water
: with these kinds of stunts. I don't feel sorry for you kids.
: - To all you people siding with Central Anime: get a life and get
: a clue. You have no god-given right to have any and all fan scripts
: out there for your personal use.
I want people to realize that without Central Anime, you wouldn't have
about half of the new fansubs out there. Hell, together with Axis,
Central Anime has translated more anime series than any other fan group
out there except for Arctic. We PAID for most of these shows to be
translated out of our own pockets, with no compensation from fans, for fans.
As for you, Conty, you're just one of many ingrates who have used
our translations over the years without so much as a letter of thanks.
Get off your high horse.
To all of you -- look, what Todd did was wrong. He shouldn't have
released the scripts as that was a condition of his obtaining them in the
first place. I've done the same and I know a number of people in anime
fandom who have backstabbed me in the same way as well. I don't care
anymore; I've left anime -- so as the old saying goes, I've forgiven and
forgotten.
We all have egos. We've all broken promises. We've all had to
live with the consequences. Todd has. I have. Karen has. You have.
So let this thing die already.
'Bye.
Andy
Andrew J. Brewer
Recovering Fanscripter
"Get a life. They're just expensive cartoons."
d_h...@ix.netcom.com
had to transcribe them. That's what this disgusting thread is all about.
I made no agreement not to release them. Thought I should clear that up
before the new-bees misunderstand this confusing thread.
How are you doing Andy ?
Todd
From Dave's e-mail
Wade Missimer
Tomar wrote:
>
> In article <37afq9i...@mornir.gweep.bc.ca>,
> Brian Edmonds <edm...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> >> proud to have Enrique as part of your convention team.
>
> I'm quite happy with Conty's involvement in Anime Central 98.
> A person's opinions on fansubbing does not indicate their ability
> to help run an Anime convention.
I'm very curious as to why someone like Conty with his long declared
hatred for the general anime fans (redeclared in this thread), would
participate in the creation of a convention for those very fans? It's
not just those fans who participate in fansubbing, Conty finds almost
all anime fans fall short in his estimation in some way. And what kind
of convention would associate themselves with him? Is "YOU ALL SUCK!!"
the new motto for Anime Central? Should make for a very different kind
of anime convention.
> If you have a problem with
> his politics, that's fine but don't dare rip into his
> association with Anime Central.
Let's see, Conty makes an offensive statement about a large group of
Anime fans with a .sig that advertises Anime Central, but I shouldn't
rip his association with Anime Central. I suggest you minimally ask him
to remove the Anime Central lines from his .sig. He's not a positive ad
for ACen. And I suggest you re-evaluate your priorities. You seem more
concerned about protecting Conty than anime fans.
-----
Wade Missimer
w...@xnet.com
Wayne Lafferty
alex c. lau wrote:
>
> In article <32de298d...@news.achilles.net>,
> Mark David <mad...@achilles.net> wrote:
> >It seems to me that a script genlocked to tape is not signifigantly
> >different than one saved to disc or one printed out or one that is
> >hand-writen.
>
> Mmmmm... I don't like that analogy. Is there a significant difference
> between, say, a phone book and a phone directory CD-ROM? If not, why is
> one given out for free and the other sold for $40-50?
That's funny. I could swear I pay a monthly fee for the one that is
handed out for "free".
Wayne
Tsurugi
co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
>I'm stepping out of this thread, but first, a few parting shots...
>- To Karen Duffy: get off your high horse, and face the facts. You're
> not an oh-so-pure innocent victim, you're not on the side of light or
> goodness or anything like that. You're a crook and a thief, and you
> have no business complaining about people doing to you what has become
> your business to do to others.
But she was hurt, whatever the reason... That's all I care about.
>- To Central Anime: you guys are scum, but you knew this already.
> It was only a matter of time until you got into *really* hot water
> with these kinds of stunts. I don't feel sorry for you kids.
For once I'm with Conty.
>- To all you people siding with Tomodachi: get a spine and stop groveling.
> Let's face it, he only reason why most of you "sided" with them is
> because they decided to stop the subs. Had Karen decided to continue,
> this flamewar would never have happened.
I'm sided with them, and I don't care about the subs.
>- To all you people siding with Central Anime: get a life and get
> a clue. You have no god-given right to have any and all fan scripts
> out there for your personal use.
I'm with Conty again, masaka.
>
>- To the ones complaining about not being able to buy the Japanese LDs:
> get a job, that's what I did. You have no money? Then make some.
> You'll never make that amount of money? Then get out of anime, this
> hobby is not for the poor. If you decide to steal, that's because
> you WANT to steal, not because you NEED to.
*shrug* I'm could get the LDs if I cared enough, but I don't.
>In short...
> YOU ALL SUCK!!
*sigh* you're asking to get flamed, but I'm not the flaming type.
Tsurugi, who is -not- a sycophant!
Chae An
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
co...@rtsg.mot.com (Enrique Conty) wrote:
[...]
>In recent Anime Central staff meetings, the idea has been suggested to
>have an Enrique Conty Dunk Tank at the con. The way they figure it,
>plenty of people here would pay good money to see me suffer public
>humiliation. If you have an opinion in favor/against this, feel free
>to visit http://www.acen.org and let them know!
I heard there'll be three lines, one to throw at the target, and one
to piss in the tank, and the other to lick Conty dry afterward. ^_^
> Enrique Conty
--C h a e
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
iQB1AwUBMt+/9qwxELHbcUd9AQFzygMAog2feNFdGMt/ksmmyUPsKPHYn7Vo9QQk
c/mgosBDI8rHBa0iMpa6XdmSgIF85ZStukeQ0r7n+CV67uiLgkiqvYvsMNS6H4cK
+t+p7kW+DeIc01brqXEjBbKZzEW423NV
=+Aof
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
cha...@hom.net cha...@umich.edu
http://www.best.com/~chaean
"I'm strangely attracted to Camille Paglia..."
"Is that wrong?"
# See Thousands [of pages ^^] of Manga/Anime/GameSys for Sale at #
# http://www.best.com/~chaean/Anime/bigsale.shtml #
Jinnai
In message <32DF36...@ucla.edu> - cheng <chen...@ucla.edu> writes:
:>In CA version of Fushigi Yuugi if I remember correctly, Central Anime
:>gave credit to Karen Duffy for translation. So stop this non-sense.
Oh I didn't say that the tapes don't include this statement. I said the web
page credits CA. You see they carry both tapes they break it down by
subtitler. So to anyone looking at the web page they see only the credit
going to the subtitler (in this case CA).
:>Robert obviously is losing his temper because of this annoying thread
:>that is going on even after several weeks. However, CA is one of the
:>generous Subbing group that has helped other anime subbing groups
:>throughout the year. Hecto, Anime West, TAAS and some other nameless
:>subbing groups all over the U.S. However, your comment is also rude
:>too. Did Tomodachi hired you as their spokesman? Are you their
:>lawyer? Don't miss understand me but I just want to stop the boxing
:>match by both side. karen said she doesn't want to fight or argue with
:>Central Anime. SO WHAT'S DONE IS DONE.
You seem to be of the belief that I'm defending Tomodachi's actions. I am
not. I find them to be illogical. I think that holding back the scripts just
hurts the people who supported the creators by buying the laserdisk boxed
sets. I think that stopping distribution of the fansubs just 4 tapes short of
the end of the series is quite cruel to those who have grown to love the
series and the characters.
Still I respect the wishs of Tomadachi to do whatever they think is best. If
they for whatever reason beleive there is a reason not to release the scripts
I will accept that. I might not like it but I accept it.
My concerns relating to CA are actually only two
First it seems they are not respectful of the wishes of other people. Further
they go out of thier way to insult people. Robert started by calling anyone
who suppored Tomadachi Sychophants. Then he referred to Karen as "Fucked in
the Head." And one poor person who wasn't even posting on this thread asked
why Tomadachi's web page was down... he speculated that it might have been
because of what happened between CA and Tomadachi... Robert called him "a
weenie." It really didn't seem called for the poor guy didn't lay any blame
on CA ... if anything the guy just spoke a bit too soon in not waiting to see
if the server was having problems.
Second, CA's reasons for using Tomadachis scripts. They have said it was to
reduce duplication of effort (among other reasons.) Yet they spend time
redoing work that has already been done. It seems inconsistant. If the logic
for what they did with the fushigi scripts is valid then should they not
devote more time to new projects?
I respect they have the right to devote their time to whatever project. I
have no right to make demands of their time. If they wish to spend all of
their time reworking things already available I will respect that. I will
find it illogical much as I find Tomadachis actions illogical. But I will
respect their rights to choose.
:>I tried to understand both side but Jinnai has gone too far. I was
Gomen! I had only hoped that Robert might take a hint and try being more
civil. I have never used profanities in any message to or about CA. Please
check deja news if you wish to confirm this. I would appreciate it if Robert
and others at CA could try to extend the same courtesy.
To that end I will comment no further on this subject. If I am the cause of
the venom and abusive language being used then the absense of further posts
from me should allow others to regain their composure.
Jinnai
-- bowing out (but I still thought the James Earl Jones comment was amusing)
Albert Wong
In article <32DE8C...@xnet.com>, Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> wrote:
>Albert Wong wrote:
>>
>> In article <32DD70...@xnet.com>, Wade Missimer <w...@xnet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >What a great public spokeperson for Anime Central! You all must be so
>>
>> Conty is on the AniCen convention staff? He didn't mention it on his .sig
>> anyhere.
>
>According to an e-mail from Conty, he's their Hotel Liason.
Hmm, then I am mistaken, having no insider information on AniCen's staff
structures. Of course, anyone can advertise a convention on their .sig.
Which brings another question... just becuase someone feels the need to
display information about a convention on their .sig, does that make them an
automatic spokesperson for said convention? It is a totally different thing,
if the person states his staff position in his .sig, but does just mentioning
a convention or organization in ones .sig makes one a spokesman? Do we all
have to start placing huge "The following goddamn fucking imflammatory boo hoo
hoo opinions are soley mine and not the optinions of my company, convention,
mother, father, dog, cat, and/or bird" type disclaimers on future posts? Is
that how it has to be?
-----
Albert Wong, Chairman, Anime Expo 97
alb...@surf.com
http://www.surf.com/~albertw
Ryan Mathews
In <5bofbp$6...@nntp1.best.com> cha...@hom.net (Chae An) writes:
>
>>have an Enrique Conty Dunk Tank at the con. The way they figure it,
>
>one to piss in the tank, and the other to lick Conty dry afterward.
Thanks for the laugh! I nearly choked! :-) :-) :-) :-)
------RM
Wayne Lafferty
alex c. lau wrote:
>
> >> Mmmmm... I don't like that analogy. Is there a significant difference
> >> between, say, a phone book and a phone directory CD-ROM? If not, why is
> >> one given out for free and the other sold for $40-50?
> >
> >That's funny. I could swear I pay a monthly fee for the one that is
> >handed out for "free".
>
> :)
Either way, you are paying for the phone book. Need I go on... ;)
Wayne
Tomar
>>
>> Enrique Conty wrote:
[clippage]
>Although I disagree with Conty entirely, (he's been on his high horse
>so long that the oxygen depravation has curdled his sense of proportion
>and memory) I'm going to have to pull a Voltaire and defend his right
>to say it. I, myself, got into a hella big pot 'o boiling water a
>few years back because of some published statements while I was acting
>as a con rep. (Surprisingly enough, it involved Viz, and indirectly
>Trish Ledoux) Conty, unlike yours truly, was not speaking in the name
>of the con with one breath and maligning someone's good name in the
>next. No, he was just slandering people on his own time. This is
>not very pretty, but it's not something you can blame on AnimeCen.
Agreed. I'm astonished that someone has actually tried
to insinuate a connection.
>BTW: Conty, you're an elitist jackass with more money than sense.
>Ain't it cute how compsci types get all law-and-order the moment they
>start making money? Let them eat cake, indeed. No wonder you're such
>a big Rose of Versailles fan.
Hey! That's not even funny. When you start writing software
to earn a living, you'll think twice about how intellectual
property is handled. You try spending 1.5 years on a project
and find out that people like your software...but not
enough to actually shell out the money. IMHO, that's far
more insulting that saying, "Your program sucks!"
Angst-sensei
In article <01bc04a4$d8f95da0$97535fcc@truncheon>,
Robert M Lowrey <ur...@southwind.net> wrote:
>
>[...] Karen's "non-conflict" tactic of
>stopping distribution and trying to get the fans to go after CA is just pretty
>damn low. Trying to get others to fight your battles is never a good idea.
Sorry, Robert, I've tried to stay out of this thread, and personal
attacks, as much as possible, despite the fact that I disagree with
Central Anime's way of doing business, but...
The above quote is the first outright *false* thing I have ever seen you
post in this thread (as opposed to heated opinion and reverse
spin-doctoring, and yes, actual *facts*).
Several people, early in this thread, when you were also a presence here,
mentioned that Karen specifically asked that people *NOT* track down and
flame her "dear thief" (no, I don't care much for that phrase either), as
she didn't want this to turn into a holy war (not her phrasing).
Much chance of that, huh? -_-
Anyway, I'm surprised you don't remember. I could dig up the message
from the mailing list, which was posted here in its entirety at one
point.
And before you start: I am NO ONE'S "minion", and will politely flame
the living hell out of anyone who implies otherwise.
--Angst-sensei
(Who does not represent anyone other than himself in this particular post.)
Matsuura-kun
doca...@MCS.COM (Angst-sensei) wrote:
>In article <01bc04a4$d8f95da0$97535fcc@truncheon>,
>Robert M Lowrey <ur...@southwind.net> wrote:
>>
>>[...] Karen's "non-conflict" tactic of stopping distribution
>>and trying to get the fans to go after CA is just pretty damn low.
>>Trying to get others to fight your battles is never a good idea.
This is absolute trash statement. Firstly, I am not one of those
Tomodachi siders in this issue, but I am Karen's biggest fan. Karen
didn't bring up the issue, it is the newbies and the ego of other fans
who wanted to know and argue this thing out. They needed a good enough
excuse to accept the discontinuation of FY by Tomodachi. It is those who
want to gossip and play the old fan that prompted people to make this
such a big issue. Karen just wanted to forget the harsh disrespect the
"dear theif" displayed. And she herself doesn't want people talking
about it.
Secondly, it is not CA at fault. Just one person. And the issue is
not script theft (transcribing is pretty common). It is one person's bad
attitude and disrespect... and this person happens to come from CA and
happens to have done a lot for CA and fansubs. It was one case between
two people.
Karen didn't chose to shy from the issue and secretly tell others to
flame CA. This is what happened when people wanted to know and then
gossip. It's just bad that both Tomodachi and Central A are despised by
fans of the other... and now the newbies misunderstand the whole
situation because of ill-informed posts.
>Sorry, Robert, I've tried to stay out of this thread, and personal
>attacks, as much as possible, despite the fact that I disagree with
>Central Anime's way of doing business, but...
Central A is not at fault. The issue is not transcribing, but one
person's desire to not translate for himself, or transcribe in private...
but that this one person WANTED Tomodachi's script... not for himself,
but for himself to post up in public.
People, please quit making this a Tomodachi vs Central A issue. And
I hope Central A stop standing by the "dear theif's" side just because he
has done a lot for Central A and is part of Central A. If you stand by
his side, ok, but quit dissing Tomodachi. They aren't the ones who
flamed you... it's the nosy gossipers who doesn't know everything.
Please, leave this already. Once and for all. Fansubbing is a
hobby, not a business or obligated service. Let's keep it fun and
dispose of unnecessary dirty politics and harmful statements that hold no
truth or supporting evidence... you are confusing many people who do not
know the issue in full.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawrence Wan -- Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
PO Box 3054
Brown University Maboroshii Kid
Providence, RI 02912 Fansub Distribution Services
tel. (401) 863-4146 Homepage: http://128.148.191.22/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tenkuu no Escaflowne*Marmalade Boy*Rurouni Kenshin*Fushigi Yuugi
Umi Ga Kikoeru
Tsurumoku Dokushinryo*Sanctuary
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~