Possibly a new era in anime dubbing?

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Lum

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:24:29 GMT, tsu...@wants.no.spam
(Tsunami@Jyurai) wrote:
>I would be interested to know how
>many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>providing the dubbing is done well?
>After all, I think that Disney of all companies would be able to do an
>excellent job of the dubbing.....

Maybe so but I still wont buy it.

It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.

Lum

---------------
Oni wa soto...
...fuku wa uchi

Richard Beaubien

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Tsunami@Jyurai wrote:

> With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
> about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
> amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how


> many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
> providing the dubbing is done well?
> After all, I think that Disney of all companies would be able to do an
> excellent job of the dubbing.....

Well, not really being a hardcore dub hater and being more of a sub fan
I'd probably say that I wouldn't be picking up the dubbed versions of most
of Miyazaki's films, espically one's like Naussica and Kiki's where I've
seen the orginal (and would kill for Disney to due a subtitle of
Kiki's...:0).

I will go see Monmoke Hime dubbed though on the big screen if it comes up
here, just because Big screen anime is a rare up here and always worth
watching if given a chance...

I guess I've kinda of gone full circle really in my anime fandom. 2 1/2
years ago I would of taken any anime in any form. Now, I'll stick with
subtitles (just picked up Greenwood Subbed..$21 a tape..:) since I'm
slowly becoming more of a student of seiyuu's. Nothing againsts dubs or
Disney's dubbing of Miyazaki, it's just that I myself prefer subtitles and
the Japanese seiyuu's...

Espically Hiromi Tsuru....I've sorta of jumped on her bandwagon this
year...:)

Ja ne!!

Richard Beaubien (Who still has fears, though Unfounded, that Disney will
turn Nausicca into another Warriors of the Wind....)
----------------
Mizuno Ami-chan forever!!!

Fanfic homepage http://www.anime.usacomputers.net/~beaubird

Ben Carter

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:24:29 GMT, tsu...@wants.no.spam
(Tsunami@Jyurai) wrote:

>With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
>about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
>amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how
>many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>providing the dubbing is done well?

I'll buy it, if only to have a good (picture) quality copy, at least
of Nausicaa (my favorite film of all time now) and Laputa. If
(unlikely, IMHO) any get cinema releases I'll go to those to, again if
only for a chance to see them on a big screen.

What I *really* want is the "collectors-edition" laserdisc that was
mentioned a while back, with the dub and sub on it, if it ever
appears...



>After all, I think that Disney of all companies would be able to do an
>excellent job of the dubbing.....

I would hope so, given the probable cost.

Ben Carter - b...@gunk.demon.co.uk - http://www.gunk.demon.co.uk/
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Tsunami@Jyurai

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how
many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
providing the dubbing is done well?
After all, I think that Disney of all companies would be able to do an
excellent job of the dubbing.....

"You will never amount to very much"
Munich schoolmaster to Albert Einstein, aged 10.

http://www.jyurai.demon.co.uk/ tsu...@jyurai.demon.co.uk


Robert Fahey

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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In article <341acef...@news2.force9.net>, Lum <L...@megabyte.force9.
co.uk.NOSPAM> writes

>On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:24:29 GMT, tsu...@wants.no.spam
>(Tsunami@Jyurai) wrote:
>>I would be interested to know how
>>many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>>providing the dubbing is done well?
>>After all, I think that Disney of all companies would be able to do an
>>excellent job of the dubbing.....
>
>Maybe so but I still wont buy it.
>
>It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
>it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.
Um, I don't think the writer intended any particular voices. I think
what you mean is that it just isn't the same, once you've watched the
sub. Thats why I like the Tenchi dub, because they used the same voice
actors. Makes sense, when you think about it, and a shame that more
companies don't go to that effort.

Ja mata ne!
Robert
.------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Robert Fahey | rob...@iol.ie |
| Reality is for those who can't cope with Quake |
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
| http://www.iol.ie/~robertf .... Games Editor, Dot-IE Magazine |
'------------------------------------------------------------------'

Ryan Mathews

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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In <874171559.21070.2...@news.demon.co.uk>

tsu...@wants.no.spam (Tsunami@Jyurai) writes:
>
>With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
>about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
>amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how

>many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>providing the dubbing is done well?

Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.
--
---------- Ryan Mathews
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: math...@ix.netcom.com
Fan-Fiction Website: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~mathews/
Read my anime website review column, "Last Exit Before Toll"!
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Jesse Smith

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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L...@megabyte.force9.co.uk.NOSPAM (Lum) writes:

> It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
> it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.

I had no idea that anime writers act as casting directors as well.

Let me point out one thing that 99% of Western anime fans lose by
watching anime in Japanese: comprehension of the dialogue that the
writer intended. IMVHO, subtitles cannot take the place of
understanding the language - they cannot capture vocal nuances,
inflections, etc. And there's no rule that says that English VAs are
worse than Japanese VAs.

I'm not going to say anything more on this topic. The only difference
in quality between subs and dubs is personal taste, and there's no
point in arguing over it.

--
Jesse Smith
jds...@wco.com
http://www.wco.com/~jdsmith/
"God's in His Heaven; all's right with the world." - Robert Browning

David G. Bell

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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In article <5vf1bk$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan "Ryan Mathews" writes:

> In <874171559.21070.2...@news.demon.co.uk>
> tsu...@wants.no.spam (Tsunami@Jyurai) writes:
> >
> >With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
> >about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
> >amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how
> >many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
> >providing the dubbing is done well?
>
> Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
> floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
> good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
> that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.

The one doubt that I have, personally, is how the dubbing might alter
the story-telling, or even the story. Is somebody at Disney going to
say, "we can't do this" and change things.

It needn't be extreme, but it could happen. I wouldn't be astonished if
names were changed to something less 'foreign' (which in reality means
less non-European, given the immigration to the USA), though I hope it
wouldn't be as clumsy as some of the more notorious examples.

But where's the limit? I haven't seen any of the recent Disney films.
Can you imagine Disney putting out Porco Rosso without some changes?
They ought to be able to, but I'm out of touch with their standards.


--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..


Ben Carter

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:32:33 GMT, d...@ryouko.demon.co.uk (Duncan
Law-Green) wrote:

>Robert Fahey <rob...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>>In article <341acef...@news2.force9.net>, Lum <L...@megabyte.force9.

>>co.uk.NOSPAM> writes


>>>It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
>>>it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.
>

>>Um, I don't think the writer intended any particular voices. I think
>>what you mean is that it just isn't the same, once you've watched the
>>sub. Thats why I like the Tenchi dub, because they used the same voice
>>actors.
>

>Um. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but Tenchi does /not/ have
>the same voice acting cast in the Japanese and American versions (see
>the seiyuu interviews at the end of the OAV series).

Er.. I thought that *was* the case for Tenchi, at least for the songs
if not the actual episodes... (BTW - I haven't seen the end of the
series, so I could be entirely wrong. I was sure someone told me that,
though)

Ben Carter

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Sep 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/13/97
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On Sat, 13 Sep 97 22:12:30 GMT, db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G.
Bell") wrote:

>In article <5vf1bk$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
> math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan "Ryan Mathews" writes:
>
>> In <874171559.21070.2...@news.demon.co.uk>
>> tsu...@wants.no.spam (Tsunami@Jyurai) writes:
>> >
>> >With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
>> >about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
>> >amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how
>> >many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>> >providing the dubbing is done well?
>>
>> Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
>> floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
>> good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
>> that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.
>
>The one doubt that I have, personally, is how the dubbing might alter
>the story-telling, or even the story. Is somebody at Disney going to
>say, "we can't do this" and change things.

I heard once that one of the conditions of the license was that they
were released uncut.. aparently the bath scene in Totoro was a major
stumbling-block at one point..? Can anyone confirm/deny this?

>It needn't be extreme, but it could happen. I wouldn't be astonished if
>names were changed to something less 'foreign' (which in reality means
>less non-European, given the immigration to the USA), though I hope it
>wouldn't be as clumsy as some of the more notorious examples.

Erk... I don't think any of the names are *that* bad. I'll be really
annoyed if they *do* change them, though.

Dwayne Gregory

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Ryan Mathews wrote:

> In <874171559.21070.2...@news.demon.co.uk>
> tsu...@wants.no.spam (Tsunami@Jyurai) writes:
> >
> >With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
>
> >about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
> >amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know
> how
> >many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
> >providing the dubbing is done well?
>
> Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
> floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
> good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
> that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.

Totoro and El-Hazard. Hmmm. No commento.

Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this
just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
lds release for any other shows?

Dwayne

Robert van der Veeke

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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Dwayne Gregory <ret...@gte.net> schreef in artikel
<5vfca7$l9a$3...@gte2.gte.net>...
> Ryan Mathews wrote:

> Totoro and El-Hazard. Hmmm. No commento.
>
> Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this
> just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
> lds release for any other shows?
>
> Dwayne
>

For "Mononoko Hime", march next year, that is what the rumours are saying
in the Netherlands.

--
Robert van der Veeke
[rjvveeke @ caiw . nl]
14 BREAK - CONTINUE to repeat 10:1

Bot.Fodder (feeding the email-harversters)
[webm...@dirtydicks.com]

Duncan Law-Green

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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Robert Fahey <rob...@iol.ie> wrote:

>In article <341acef...@news2.force9.net>, Lum <L...@megabyte.force9.
>co.uk.NOSPAM> writes
>>It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
>>it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.

>Um, I don't think the writer intended any particular voices. I think
>what you mean is that it just isn't the same, once you've watched the
>sub. Thats why I like the Tenchi dub, because they used the same voice
>actors.

Um. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but Tenchi does /not/ have
the same voice acting cast in the Japanese and American versions (see
the seiyuu interviews at the end of the OAV series).

>Makes sense when you think about it, and a shame that more


>companies don't go to that effort.

To the best of my knowledge, no anime company (not even Pioneer!) has
used the same voice cast for the Japanese and English dubs.

Baibai

Duncan
=-=-=-


/ _ # J. Duncan Law-Green DP, El Haz, Eva, Tenchi and more DP
/_/ _ # Web: http://www.ryouko.demon.co.uk/ RL: Leicester, UK
/_/ # - Writer under pressure, do not puncture or incinerate -

Invid fan

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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In article <874188...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
wrote:

> It needn't be extreme, but it could happen. I wouldn't be astonished if
> names were changed to something less 'foreign' (which in reality means
> less non-European, given the immigration to the USA), though I hope it
> wouldn't be as clumsy as some of the more notorious examples.
>

I for one think at least one name should be changed: Sheeta. It's a tad too
close to a certain four letter word :)

--
Chris Mack "...any occult ritual ought to involve
'Invid fan' (a) nudity
(b) wearing a bad hat, and
In...@localnet.com (c) assuming an uncomfortable and ludicrous
position"
-Penn and Teller

Trey Causey

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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> It needn't be extreme, but it could happen. I wouldn't be astonished if
> names were changed to something less 'foreign' (which in reality means
> less non-European, given the immigration to the USA), though I hope it
> wouldn't be as clumsy as some of the more notorious examples.
>

> But where's the limit? I haven't seen any of the recent Disney films.
> Can you imagine Disney putting out Porco Rosso without some changes?
> They ought to be able to, but I'm out of touch with their standards.

It was my understanding that Disney is not allowed to alter the story in
any shape or form other than dubbing it. That's just what my impression
was. I'm sure some changes could be made and said it was "impossible not
to for the dub to work." Something like that anyway...

*** trey causey ***
*** section nine web design studios ***
*** http://www.sectionnine.com/ ***
*** 540-951-1786 by phone ***

Bruce Tomlin

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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[uk.media.animation.anime removed from followups]

In rec.arts.anime.misc Ryan Mathews <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
>floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
>good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
>that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.

Totoro is a good dub, except for that AWFUL kiddy theme song at the
beginning! The singer's voice is so saccharine, it makes me cringe!

(I'm still debating whether or not to buy the LD, which is not only dubbed
without alternate audio, but P&S too. Still, Totoro and Catbus do rule.)

Mark L. Neidengard

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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In article <$F$vcZAQO...@iol.ie>, Robert Fahey <rob...@iol.ie> wrote:
>In article <341acef...@news2.force9.net>, Lum <L...@megabyte.force9.
>co.uk.NOSPAM> writes
>>
>>It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
>>it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.
>Um, I don't think the writer intended any particular voices. I think
>what you mean is that it just isn't the same, once you've watched the
>sub. Thats why I like the Tenchi dub, because they used the same voice
>actors. Makes sense, when you think about it, and a shame that more

>companies don't go to that effort.

Um, I don't want to renew the old dub/sub flamewar here, but I _will_ point
out that the production staff is _positively_ connected to the seiyuu
selection process to match voices to characters. It is probably rare to find
an anime where the creators _didn't_ care what the original seiyuu sound like.
The best we could hope for in a dub is that the original creators have a
hand in selecting the dubbing voice cast...
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict

Ru Igarashi

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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Jesse Smith (jds...@shell.wco.com) wrote:

>L...@megabyte.force9.co.uk.NOSPAM (Lum) writes:
>
>> It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
>> it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.
>
>I had no idea that anime writers act as casting directors as well.

Ok, he got the attribution wrong, but Lum's pretty well on track
about the loss of the original voices. There are some wonderful
voices and acting there and it would be a real shame to miss out
on them.

>Let me point out one thing that 99% of Western anime fans lose by
>watching anime in Japanese: comprehension of the dialogue that the
>writer intended. IMVHO, subtitles cannot take the place of
>understanding the language - they cannot capture vocal nuances,
>inflections, etc. And there's no rule that says that English VAs are
>worse than Japanese VAs.
>
>I'm not going to say anything more on this topic. The only difference
>in quality between subs and dubs is personal taste, and there's no
>point in arguing over it.

Have to disagree a bit with you there. Maybe the 99% is close, but
I think the number is smaller, AND...

I definitely disagree with the comprehension arguement.
Subtitles don't convey enough information, yes, but a lot of
subtleties are in the japanese dialog itself which you don't
lose. You might not understand what they are saying, but a lot
of the time you sure can understand HOW they are saying it.
That "HOW" is so easily lost in dubs, and is one thing I always
suspect in dubs of ANY foreign film. I'd rather hear the
original Slavic tongue on a Czech film than a dub track.
Most the cues and nuances are comprehendable in the japanese
tracks and don't require much, if any, understanding of the
language. That's why I think there isn't as much of a loss
in comprehension, at least not to the degree that dubs might
be considered better in that category.

Furthermore, and this relates back to the VAs, the voice
direction probably has a shorter degree of separation to the
Director's intention than a dub voice director could ever get
(considering the number of translators and writers there are
between the original voice director and the dub voice
director). There is bound to be some re-interpretation, even
though unintentional. I was once horrified to hear that a VA
wanted to do her own interpretation of a character. This has
nothing to do with quality, rather with changes, however well
intentioned.

I think this goes much beyond personal taste and has
ramifications on the integrity of the film and the intentions of
the original director.

And for those reasons, I am really hoping that Disney will put
out subtitled versions of Miyazaki releases.

ru

Mark L. Neidengard

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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Dammit, the old flame war resurfaces...

In article <s5men6s...@shell.wco.com>,


Jesse Smith <jds...@shell.wco.com> wrote:
>L...@megabyte.force9.co.uk.NOSPAM (Lum) writes:
>
>> It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
>> it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.
>
>I had no idea that anime writers act as casting directors as well.

The screenplay authors may or may not have part of the seiyuu selection
process as a whole, but I would guess that at least the director gets to pass
judgement on the decisions of the casting folks...

>Let me point out one thing that 99% of Western anime fans lose by
>watching anime in Japanese: comprehension of the dialogue that the
>writer intended. IMVHO, subtitles cannot take the place of
>understanding the language - they cannot capture vocal nuances,
>inflections, etc. And there's no rule that says that English VAs are
>worse than Japanese VAs.

Subtitles are, of course, not a perfect substitute for understanding of the
original language. BUT, dubs are often an even _worse_ substitute for
understanding the original language, mainly because if someone is starting
with a blank slate for the dialog there is an empirically demonstrated
pressure to rewrite, instead of translate, the original dialog. There is no
fundamental principle that states that a dub must be more inaccurate to the
original than a subtitle, but there are strong reasons to believe that that
will be the result in many cases (and has been the case historically). We
can but hope that future dubbing efforts attempt to restrain their urges to
rewrite the script...

Mark L. Neidengard

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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In article <874188...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,

David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <5vf1bk$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
> math...@ix.netcom.com(Ryan "Ryan Mathews" writes:
>
>> In <874171559.21070.2...@news.demon.co.uk>
>> tsu...@wants.no.spam (Tsunami@Jyurai) writes:
>> >
>> >With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
>> >about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
>> >amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how
>> >many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>> >providing the dubbing is done well?
>>
>> Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
>> floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
>> good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
>> that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.
>
>The one doubt that I have, personally, is how the dubbing might alter
>the story-telling, or even the story. Is somebody at Disney going to
>say, "we can't do this" and change things.

Well, that was the case in Wings of Honneamise: the dub was actually almost
beyond reproach right up to Shiro's speech from space (the conclusion of all
his character development). The Manga dub made some subtle alterations in
the religious flavor of his speech and made him end up sounding like a
Christian instead of what he sounded like in the original (gnostic? I'm
hard pressed for a specific label...) I can't say it wrecked the dub, but
it certainly left a different impression on the audience than, I would
imagine, the original or a well-done subtitle of the original, would have
done...

Derek Janssen

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Mark L. Neidengard wrote:
>
> Dammit, the old flame war resurfaces...
>
> >> It's not a case of whether the dub is good or not, it's the fact that
> >> it's a dub, you lose the original voices that the writer intended.
> >
> >I had no idea that anime writers act as casting directors as well.

No, just large Japanese anime studios of several hundred talented
artists--But don't worry, they're foreigners...

> The screenplay authors may or may not have part of the seiyuu selection
> process as a whole, but I would guess that at least the director gets to pass
> judgement on the decisions of the casting folks...
>
> >Let me point out one thing that 99% of Western anime fans lose by
> >watching anime in Japanese: comprehension of the dialogue that the
> >writer intended. IMVHO, subtitles cannot take the place of
> >understanding the language - they cannot capture vocal nuances,
> >inflections, etc. And there's no rule that says that English VAs are
> >worse than Japanese VAs.

Subtitles work on almost subliminal level--something like that science
experiment you've seen where the word "green" is written in red and the
word "blue" is written in yellow, etc.:
We READ English words which our brain processes while we HEAR the
original VA in Japanese... Thinking back later, our memories somehow
remember the original VA's voice speaking the lines in English with
unduplicatable Japanese inflection--Nothing is lost.

> Subtitles are, of course, not a perfect substitute for understanding of the
> original language. BUT, dubs are often an even _worse_ substitute for
> understanding the original language, mainly because if someone is starting
> with a blank slate for the dialog there is an empirically demonstrated

> pressure to rewrite, instead of translate, the original dialog. We


> can but hope that future dubbing efforts attempt to restrain their urges to
> rewrite the script...

(No...must not invoke the name of Macek....Must not make joke about "I
am the Count...")

Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com

Kyle Nishioka

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Robert van der Veeke (rjvv...@caiw.nl) wrote:
: Dwayne Gregory <ret...@gte.net> schreef in artikel
: > Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this

: > just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
: > lds release for any other shows?

: For "Mononoko Hime", march next year, that is what the rumours are saying
: in the Netherlands.

The CNN article confirms this, but who knows what will happen between now
and March. I remember people saying (when the deal was first signed) that
the films were supposed to start coming out around now.

--
Kyle
nk...@hawaii.edu

#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <blue_ribbon>

Tsunami@Jyurai

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Once upon a time in...@localnet.com (Invid fan) scribed carefuly:

>> It needn't be extreme, but it could happen. I wouldn't be astonished if
>> names were changed to something less 'foreign' (which in reality means
>> less non-European, given the immigration to the USA), though I hope it
>> wouldn't be as clumsy as some of the more notorious examples.
>>

>I for one think at least one name should be changed: Sheeta. It's a tad too
>close to a certain four letter word :)

Well, the dub I have of Laputa has all the character names unchanged.
I would hve thought it unlikely that name changes are going to take
place, but you never know....

Tsunami@Jyurai

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Once upon a time Bruce Tomlin <bto...@crl.com> scribed carefuly:


>[uk.media.animation.anime removed from followups]

>In rec.arts.anime.misc Ryan Mathews <math...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs
>>floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
>>good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
>>that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.

>Totoro is a good dub, except for that AWFUL kiddy theme song at the

>beginning! The singer's voice is so saccharine, it makes me cringe!

And very similar to the original voice, except not as saccharine!
Goes to show doesn't it?

>(I'm still debating whether or not to buy the LD, which is not only dubbed
>without alternate audio, but P&S too. Still, Totoro and Catbus do rule.)

hair...@utdallas.edu

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
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David G. Bell (db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk) wrote:

> The one doubt that I have, personally, is how the dubbing might alter
> the story-telling, or even the story. Is somebody at Disney going to
> say, "we can't do this" and change things.

No they won't. They can't. After being burned so badly by the "Warriors
of the Wind" the one unnegotiable point on any further English licensing
of Ghibli films was no cuts, no changes (not even to the music), just
an accurate translation. That was the reason that it's taken so long
for any US company to finally get these films. Go see the FAQ about the
Disney-Tokuma deal at www.nausicaa.net.

As for the dub, Disney is going to do a serious job on this. According
to the Miyazaki ML's inside Disney sources, the typical anime English dub
is a quickie job that costs about $30,000. Disney is spending almost ten
times this doing the "Mononoke Hime" dub. (I remember hearing Carl Macek
talking about the original dubs he did of "Totoro", "Laputa", "Kiki", and
"Porco" and saying that he rarely needed more than one or two takes for
each line. It's amazing the Totoro and Kiki dubs (which are generally
accepted as very good) came out as well as they did under the circumstances.)

Current reports in Japan and in the US trade papers are predicting a
March 98 release date for MH in the US.

Marc Hairston


Derek Janssen

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Michael Yoong wrote:
>
> >: For "Mononoko Hime", march next year, that is what the rumours are saying
> >: in the Netherlands.
> >
> >The CNN article confirms this, but who knows what will happen between now
> >and March. I remember people saying (when the deal was first signed) that
> >the films were supposed to start coming out around now.
>
> Eh? But Mononoko Hime 's just come out (well a couple of months ago when
> I was there - they showed all the Miyazake animes on NHK to drum up
> interest, great!) in Japan hasn't it? Or have I gone through a time warp
> somewhen?

By the word "here", we mean the US--

(As with most things in the world, but Euros and Japanese possibly
know this already...) ; )

Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com

Michael Yoong

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

In article <5vh8ki$r...@news.Hawaii.Edu>, Kyle Nishioka <nk...@Hawaii.Edu>
writes

>
>: For "Mononoko Hime", march next year, that is what the rumours are saying
>: in the Netherlands.
>
>The CNN article confirms this, but who knows what will happen between now
>and March. I remember people saying (when the deal was first signed) that
>the films were supposed to start coming out around now.
Eh? But Mononoko Hime 's just come out (well a couple of months ago when
I was there - they showed all the Miyazake animes on NHK to drum up
interest, great!) in Japan hasn't it? Or have I gone through a time warp
somewhen?
--
Michael Yoong

Derek Janssen

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Tsunami@Jyurai wrote:
>
> Once upon a time Bruce Tomlin <bto...@crl.com> scribed carefuly:
> >Totoro is a good dub, except for that AWFUL kiddy theme song at the
> >beginning! The singer's voice is so saccharine, it makes me cringe!
>
> And very similar to the original voice, except not as saccharine!
> Goes to show doesn't it?

I'd still like to know the REAL lyrics to the "Totoro, To-to-ro" end
theme, however--since Macek's improvised blind guess tends to show its
cluelessness by the third chorus...

(Oh, and "Here's a picture Mei drew"?? Nice, Carl--Really DEEP
interpretation...)

Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com

hair...@utdallas.edu

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Michael Yoong (Mic...@yoong.demon.co.uk) wrote:

> >The CNN article confirms this, but who knows what will happen between now
> >and March. I remember people saying (when the deal was first signed) that
> >the films were supposed to start coming out around now.
> Eh? But Mononoko Hime 's just come out (well a couple of months ago when
> I was there - they showed all the Miyazake animes on NHK to drum up
> interest, great!) in Japan hasn't it? Or have I gone through a time warp
> somewhen?

Things have moved fast in Japan. "Mononoke Hime" has already become
the highest grossing Japanese-made film ever released in Japan and will
soon (if it hasn't by now) surpass "E.T." which was the all time biggest
money maker in Japan.

Money talks in the film business, and the runaway success of MH has
encouraged Disney to push this film seriously. There was an article
about this in the Sept 8 issue of Time (international edition) and
you can find it at:

www.pathfinder.com/@@y3uRLQQA0gqG9MP5/time/magazine/1997/int/
970908/cinema2.html

Remember, this the *international* edition of Time, *not* the US edition
(although we hope it may yet appear in a later issue of the domestic
version here in the US).

Marc Hairston


Derek Janssen

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

hair...@utdallas.edu wrote:
>
> Things have moved fast in Japan. "Mononoke Hime" has already become
> the highest grossing Japanese-made film ever released in Japan and will
> soon (if it hasn't by now) surpass "E.T." which was the all time biggest
> money maker in Japan.
>
> Money talks in the film business, and the runaway success of MH has
> encouraged Disney to push this film seriously.

Conventional wisdom has it that ANY non-US all-time #1 champ
automatically gets US distribution, no matter how obscure/unmarketable/
debatable quality:
Australia's "Mad Max" (before we'd heard of Mel Gibson), for example,
New Zealand's otherwise difficult-to-market "Once Were Warriors", or
France's "Three Men and a Cradle"--
Even Japan's previous domestic champ, "Heaven and Earth"--an unstoppably
mediocre feudal epic--was given fanfare and major studio release when it
came here in 1990. (Don't feel bad if you happened to miss it...)

If MH had been #2 or 3, we might still be wondering--But with Disney,
money doesn't talk, it shouts, and one single word, spelled g-r-e-e-d.
(ESPECIALLY when it comes to something they already owned that happened
to hit it big--)
We may rest comfortably and wait for coming attractions. : )

Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com

David Crowe

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Derek Janssen <dja...@ultranet.com> wrote:

: hair...@utdallas.edu wrote:
: >
: > Things have moved fast in Japan. "Mononoke Hime" has already become
: > the highest grossing Japanese-made film ever released in Japan and will
: > soon (if it hasn't by now) surpass "E.T." which was the all time biggest
: > money maker in Japan.
: >
: > Money talks in the film business, and the runaway success of MH has
: > encouraged Disney to push this film seriously.

: Conventional wisdom has it that ANY non-US all-time #1 champ
: automatically gets US distribution, no matter how obscure/unmarketable/
: debatable quality:
: Australia's "Mad Max" (before we'd heard of Mel Gibson), for example,
: New Zealand's otherwise difficult-to-market "Once Were Warriors", or
: France's "Three Men and a Cradle"--
: Even Japan's previous domestic champ, "Heaven and Earth"--an unstoppably
: mediocre feudal epic--was given fanfare and major studio release when it
: came here in 1990. (Don't feel bad if you happened to miss it...)

You forgot "Young Einstein!" Got to split that beer atom... :)

--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman

You only read the manual when there's something you can't figure out. -Skuld

Jerry Shaw

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Derek Janssen <dja...@ultranet.com> wrote:

>Tsunami@Jyurai wrote:
>>
>> Once upon a time Bruce Tomlin <bto...@crl.com> scribed carefuly:
>> >Totoro is a good dub, except for that AWFUL kiddy theme song at the
>> >beginning! The singer's voice is so saccharine, it makes me cringe!
>>
>> And very similar to the original voice, except not as saccharine!
>> Goes to show doesn't it?
>
>I'd still like to know the REAL lyrics to the "Totoro, To-to-ro" end
>theme, however--since Macek's improvised blind guess tends to show its
>cluelessness by the third chorus...

As far as I know, Carl and Streamline didn't have anything to do with the
translation for the song.

A few days before the original release in American theatres (Troma's
release?), I saw the English version of the film in a Little Tokyo theatre
special presentation here in Los Angeles. It had the new English lyrics to the
song.

The next weekend (I think it was), I talked with Fred Patten of Streamline and
commented that the singer they had used for the song had almost the same voice
as the Japanese singer. He said that Streamline's release only had the
Japanese version of the song. They had not done the song.

I was never able to find out what company did the new lyrics and song. If I
remember, I'll ask Carl the next time I see him, or Fred next week.

>Derek Janssen

Jerry

Derek Janssen

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

David Crowe wrote:
>
>> : > Things have moved fast in Japan. "Mononoke Hime" has already become
> : > the highest grossing Japanese-made film ever released in Japan and will
> : > soon (if it hasn't by now) surpass "E.T." which was the all time biggest
> : > money maker in Japan.
> : >
> : > Money talks in the film business, and the runaway success of MH has
> : > encouraged Disney to push this film seriously.
>
> : Conventional wisdom has it that ANY non-US all-time #1 champ
> : automatically gets US distribution, no matter how obscure/unmarketable/
> : debatable quality:
> : Australia's "Mad Max" (before we'd heard of Mel Gibson), for example,
> : New Zealand's otherwise difficult-to-market "Once Were Warriors", or
> : France's "Three Men and a Cradle"--
> : Even Japan's previous domestic champ, "Heaven and Earth"--an unstoppably
> : mediocre feudal epic--was given fanfare and major studio release when it
> : came here in 1990. (Don't feel bad if you happened to miss it...)
>
> You forgot "Young Einstein!" Got to split that beer atom... :)

Oh yes, of course, thanks--
Point proven: Name one other POSSIBLE excuse for a studio to bring Mr.
Serious to the US...

Derek Janssen
dja...@ultranet.com

Invid fan

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

In article <341C88...@ultranet.com>, Derek Janssen
<dja...@ultranet.com> wrote:

> Even Japan's previous domestic champ, "Heaven and Earth"--an unstoppably
> mediocre feudal epic--was given fanfare and major studio release when it
> came here in 1990. (Don't feel bad if you happened to miss it...)
>

It lasted one week in Buffalo ^_^

Nyk Tarr

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Sep 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/14/97
to

Once upon a time in the land of uk.media.animation.anime,
Ryan Mathews wrote:

> In <874171559.21070.2...@news.demon.co.uk>
> tsu...@wants.no.spam (Tsunami@Jyurai) writes:
>>
>>With the forthcoming releases of the Miyazaki movies by Disney we are
>>about to see what can be done in the way of dubbing when a decent
>>amount of money is put into the dub. I would be interested to know how
>>many of the hardcore dub haters would be willing to buy these,
>>providing the dubbing is done well?

> Well, in my opinion, there are already a few damn near perfect dubs


> floating around out there. MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO and EL-HAZARD are two
> good examples. If the dub-haters hate these dubs, then I don't see
> that any dub Disney does is going to appease them.

...there aren't that many words in Totoro...

El Hazard's good tho'...

The problem with the (potential) Disney dub of Monoke Hime, is that
they have so far only dubbed childrens animation, usually dominated by
songs. It remains to be seem how they will cope with something that
is, by all accounts, rather more serious.

Nyk
--
____ _
/__ _]| http://www.tomobiki.demon.co.uk
/ \/ |_ | Rochdale, UK Team AMIGA
/ /\ _)| Find me on usenet: alt.games.mornington.cresent
--

AKURYOU FUJI NO OFUDAAAA!


Heffalump

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

To save you all embarrassment in the future...

>> >: For "Mononoko Hime", ...
>> Eh? But Mononoko Hime 's ...

It's not "Mononoko Hime," it's Mononoke Hime.

M O N O N O K E H I M E

...spells Mononoke Hime, the title of MIYAZAKI Hayao's latest film. If
that's a problem, "M.H." or even an English title -- Spirit Princess,
Princess Ghost, etc. -- should do.

Sorry to be so picky about this, but I came across 3 misspellings of
"Mononoke Hime" on usenet in the last 5 minutes. If you have any further
questions, feel free to contact me directly. Again, "Mononoke Hime."

Thanks,
Mike A

P.S. "Homonoke Hime" is also wrong. ("homonoke"... geez... ^_^;; )

Robert van der Veeke

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
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Heffalump <n934...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> schreef in artikel
<n9344881.874307996@statler>...
Yeah Yeah, i know.

It is Mononoke Hime, but have you seen the time that my message was posted,
7.26 on a sundaymorning is usually not the best time for me to do anything.

Kuno Christoffel

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

Heffalump (n934...@statler.cc.wwu.edu) wrote:
> To save you all embarrassment in the future...
>
> >> >: For "Mononoko Hime", ...
> >> Eh? But Mononoko Hime 's ...
>
> It's not "Mononoko Hime," it's Mononoke Hime.
>
> M O N O N O K E H I M E
>
> ...spells Mononoke Hime, the title of MIYAZAKI Hayao's latest film. If
> that's a problem, "M.H." or even an English title -- Spirit Princess,
> Princess Ghost, etc. -- should do.
>
> Sorry to be so picky about this, but I came across 3 misspellings of
> "Mononoke Hime" on usenet in the last 5 minutes. If you have any further
> questions, feel free to contact me directly. Again, "Mononoke Hime."

Chill, man. Of -course- we all know how to spell "Manmono Hime". What kind of
idiot has problems typing "Bakemono Hime", anyways? How -hard- is it to write
"Minkymomo Hime"? Personally, I am -totally- psyched for Badmojo Hime's
American release, know what I mean?

I've heard it's the best film Meozaki ever made...

--
Kuno Christoffel - de...@mail.wizard.net
http://www.wizard.net/~deva/

"Ooooh, Alphonse! He's so BIG and STRONG and ERECT!"

- Kuno Christoffel, on Patlabor

Jesse Smith

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

Derek Janssen <dja...@ultranet.com> writes:

> We READ English words which our brain processes while we HEAR the
> original VA in Japanese... Thinking back later, our memories somehow
> remember the original VA's voice speaking the lines in English with
> unduplicatable Japanese inflection--Nothing is lost.

Well, maybe *your* brain works like this, but not mine. If I watch a
sub, I hear the VA speaking Japanese. I read the subtitle and I
understand what the translation is. I can't describe it, but there's
a certain invisible barrier between me and the characters that doesn't
seem to exist when the VAs are speaking English. It's as if I have to
make an intellectual effort at linking the translation to the
original, whereas in English this all happens automatically and
subconsciously, and I can get into the story much easier.

Matter of taste, really. Why don't we drop this thread before it
degenerates into flamage?

--
Jesse Smith
jds...@wco.com
http://www.wco.com/~jdsmith/
"God's in His Heaven; all's right with the world." - Robert Browning

Tsunami@Jyurai

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

Thus far many of the replies to my original posting are basing their
opinions on past attempts at dubbing, whic have been at best,
praiseworthey, and at worst, diabolical. What I am saying is that
Disney have a chance with the forthcoming Miyazaki releases to set
that record straight (or at least a little straighter than has been
achieved so far).
Perhaps they will not kiddify the movies (pretty tricky with Mononoke
Hime), and make a decent job. It just seems that many of people who
have replied to the original posting are not willing to give them the
benefit of the doubt.
(and no, I am not a Disney lover)

Ian James Abbott

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

In article <n9344881.874307996@statler>, n934...@statler.cc.wwu.edu
(Heffalump) writes:

>M O N O N O K E H I M E
>
>...spells Mononoke Hime, the title of MIYAZAKI Hayao's latest film. If
>that's a problem, "M.H." or even an English title -- Spirit Princess,
>Princess Ghost, etc. -- should do.
>

Any word on what Disney's English title is going to be, yet?

--
Ian James Abbott |*| "Konya wa 'Hurricane'!" -- Priss
i...@perfect.airtime.co.uk |*| "Konya wa shichuu kana?" -- Mink
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/3210/

Jesse Smith

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
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mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard) writes:

> Dammit, the old flame war resurfaces...

Yes, which is why I didn't want to say anything, but oh well...

> Subtitles are, of course, not a perfect substitute for understanding of the
> original language. BUT, dubs are often an even _worse_ substitute for
> understanding the original language

I'm not talking about the original language. If you want to
understand the original language, learn Japanese and import
untranslated anime. I'm talking about "anime for the masses" - anime
that is meant to be enjoyed. In many cases, I find a dub more
entertaining than a sub - I find that I am able to lose myself more
fully in a story that is dubbed, I find subtitles mildly annoying in
the way they obscure the bottom 6th of the screen, etc. Why should I
subject myself to something I enjoy less? On principle?

> mainly because if someone is starting
> with a blank slate for the dialog there is an empirically demonstrated

> pressure to rewrite, instead of translate, the original dialog. There is no
> fundamental principle that states that a dub must be more inaccurate to the
> original than a subtitle, but there are strong reasons to believe that that
> will be the result in many cases (and has been the case
> historically).

I agree that the script should be changed as little as possible,
within the constraints of lip syncing and other timing concerns, and
the need to create natural, entertaining dialogue. Most dubs that I
have seen are reasonably consistant with their subtitled versions, at
least, though as far as I can tell with my admittedly limited skill at
Japanese, subtitles aren't always accurate, either. I think this is
the nature of the beast, as far as translating Japanese goes.

So, if you are a hardcore otaku who needs to know exactly what the
Japanese in Evangelion means, for example, there is a literal
translation on the net. Terrible English, but accurate, I believe.
On the other hand, if you are a casual anime aficionado (I hesitate to
say 'fan') who simply wants to enjoy a terrific show, I'd recommend
the dub. Both have their place.

Anime was, from the beginning, meant to be enjoyed. I think it's
great that people can do that in the West too, even without having to
spend 5 years learning Japanese.

Lum

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:45:02 -0400, in...@localnet.com (Invid fan)
wrote:

>I for one think at least one name should be changed: Sheeta. It's a tad too
>close to a certain four letter word :)

I disagree, changing the names is very annoying, often the names meen
stuff.

What would happened if they applied this everywhere, who would the
Krowats be fighting against then?

Lum

---------------
Oni wa soto...
...fuku wa uchi

hair...@utdallas.edu

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

Ian James Abbott (i...@perfect.airtime.co.uk) wrote:

> Any word on what Disney's English title is going to be, yet?

No *official* word, but the "official English" title in Japan is "The
Princess Mononoke", so I'd be willing to bet that Disney sticks with
that. "Mononoke" is one of those Japanese words that doesn't translate
well into English, so leaving it in the title solves one problem and
also adds an air of "intriging foreigness" to the title.

(And there is 0.00% chance that Disney will call it "The Amazing Adventures
of San and Her White Wolf". ^_^ )

Marc Hairston

Mark L. Neidengard

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

In article <MPG.e871cbf6...@news.zippo.com>,

Kuno Christoffel <de...@mail.wizard.net> wrote:
>Heffalump (n934...@statler.cc.wwu.edu) wrote:
>> To save you all embarrassment in the future...
>>
>> >> >: For "Mononoko Hime", ...
>> >> Eh? But Mononoko Hime 's ...
>>
>> It's not "Mononoko Hime," it's Mononoke Hime.
>>
>> M O N O N O K E H I M E
>>
>> ...spells Mononoke Hime, the title of MIYAZAKI Hayao's latest film. If
>> that's a problem, "M.H." or even an English title -- Spirit Princess,
>> Princess Ghost, etc. -- should do.
>>
>> Sorry to be so picky about this, but I came across 3 misspellings of
>> "Mononoke Hime" on usenet in the last 5 minutes. If you have any further
>> questions, feel free to contact me directly. Again, "Mononoke Hime."
>
>Chill, man. Of -course- we all know how to spell "Manmono Hime". What kind of
> idiot has problems typing "Bakemono Hime", anyways? How -hard- is it to
> write "Minkymomo Hime"? Personally, I am -totally- psyched for Badmojo
> Hime's American release, know what I mean?

*choke* *wheeze* "Minkymomo Hime" *hack* *hurl*

>I've heard it's the best film Meozaki ever made...

*thud* *crash*

Ru Igarashi

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

Tsunami@Jyurai (tsu...@wants.no.spam) wrote:
>Thus far many of the replies to my original posting are basing their
>opinions on past attempts at dubbing, whic have been at best,
>praiseworthey, and at worst, diabolical. What I am saying is that
>Disney have a chance with the forthcoming Miyazaki releases to set
>that record straight (or at least a little straighter than has been
>achieved so far).
>Perhaps they will not kiddify the movies (pretty tricky with Mononoke
>Hime), and make a decent job. It just seems that many of people who
>have replied to the original posting are not willing to give them the
>benefit of the doubt.
>(and no, I am not a Disney lover)

And there is good reason for those who don't trust dubs at all.
Given the choice of a transcription that OVERWRITES ALL information
with new information (dubs) and a transcription that ADDS some
explanatory information (subs) to the original information, there
is no contest. Subtitling interferes the least, misinterprets
nuances the least, and provides a backup for interpretation the
most. This isn't simply a matter of past versus future, this is
an issue of languages and the willingness (or unwillingness) to
accept a "new" version over the original. It doesn't matter how
good a job a company does on a dub, because a fault in the rewrite
is bound to be in there.

On the matter of whether or not a well done dub will change anything,
that is debatable. There have been plenty of foreign films with very
good dubbing, but they haven't done all that much for the foreign
film industry in North America in general. As big as Disney seems,
I don't think a good dub of MH is going to mean much to the average
viewer or to the industry. At best, it will probably be perceived
more like a domestic release; it's origin won't matter all that much.
That problem might even be attributed to the fact that it's a dub
("gee it's in English, so it must be a Disney production").

ru

Nyk Tarr

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
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Once upon a time in the land of uk.media.animation.anime,

Ian James Abbott wrote:

> In article <n9344881.874307996@statler>, n934...@statler.cc.wwu.edu
> (Heffalump) writes:

>>M O N O N O K E H I M E
>>
>>...spells Mononoke Hime, the title of MIYAZAKI Hayao's latest film. If
>>that's a problem, "M.H." or even an English title -- Spirit Princess,
>>Princess Ghost, etc. -- should do.
>>

> Any word on what Disney's English title is going to be, yet?

Beauty and the Beast 2? ^_^

BTW alternate trans: Hairy Princess

Nyk
--
____ _
/__ _]| http://www.tomobiki.demon.co.uk
/ \/ |_ | Rochdale, UK Team AMIGA
/ /\ _)| Find me on usenet: alt.games.mornington.cresent
--

Lather, rinse, repeat.


Mark L. Neidengard

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
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In article <s5m67s2...@shell.wco.com>,

Jesse Smith <jds...@shell.wco.com> wrote:
>mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard) writes:
>
>> Subtitles are, of course, not a perfect substitute for understanding of the
>> original language. BUT, dubs are often an even _worse_ substitute for
>> understanding the original language
>
>I'm not talking about the original language. If you want to
>understand the original language, learn Japanese and import
>untranslated anime. I'm talking about "anime for the masses" - anime
>that is meant to be enjoyed. In many cases, I find a dub more
>entertaining than a sub - I find that I am able to lose myself more
>fully in a story that is dubbed, I find subtitles mildly annoying in
>the way they obscure the bottom 6th of the screen, etc. Why should I
>subject myself to something I enjoy less? On principle?

Well, the trouble is that anime in its _original_ form is intended for the
masses...just that the masses in question happen to be the Japanese audience.
The principle I've been operating on is that the American audience, if they
could overcome the language barrier and perhaps some cultural obstacles, should
enjoy the original material every bit as much as the Japanese audience. If
given the choice between a translation that brought the fans to the anime, and
a dub that rewrote parts of the story and brought the anime to the fans, I'd
_greatly_ prefer the former on the general principles of preserving the
original creators' intent and broadening the audience's cultural horizons.

[munch]


>So, if you are a hardcore otaku who needs to know exactly what the
>Japanese in Evangelion means, for example, there is a literal
>translation on the net. Terrible English, but accurate, I believe.
>On the other hand, if you are a casual anime aficionado (I hesitate to
>say 'fan') who simply wants to enjoy a terrific show, I'd recommend
>the dub. Both have their place.
>
>Anime was, from the beginning, meant to be enjoyed. I think it's
>great that people can do that in the West too, even without having to
>spend 5 years learning Japanese.

My contention is that this understanding can be done with a subtitle, and
possibly to better effect, than a dub. But, if people are willing to
deliberately sacrifice the original soundtrack, that's their business. =|

stanlee

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to tsu...@jyurai.demon.co.uk

On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Tsunami@Jyurai wrote:

> Thus far many of the replies to my original posting are basing their
> opinions on past attempts at dubbing, whic have been at best,
> praiseworthey, and at worst, diabolical. What I am saying is that
> Disney have a chance with the forthcoming Miyazaki releases to set
> that record straight (or at least a little straighter than has been
> achieved so far).
> Perhaps they will not kiddify the movies (pretty tricky with Mononoke
> Hime), and make a decent job. It just seems that many of people who
>

An option Disney has
is to release those "more mature"
Miyazaki films under the label of
one of their subsidiaries (Miramax, Buena Vista, etc).
Disney already exercised that option
when they released the live-action film "Shall We Dance?"
under the Miramax label in the USA this summer.
That way, Disney won't need to "kiddify" any film
- which they CANNOT do anyway under the Disney-Tokuma deal.

Laters.
Stan

_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \____|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita http://www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
| ( _| | Univ. of Rochester
\ ______| _______ ____ ___ sd0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | sta...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
/___/\/\___\__| |__|___| \____|


fs...@uaf.edu

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

In article <341d6d28...@perfect.airtime.co.uk>, i...@perfect.airtime.co.uk
says...


>
>In article <n9344881.874307996@statler>, n934...@statler.cc.wwu.edu
>(Heffalump) writes:
>

(snip)


>>...spells Mononoke Hime, the title of MIYAZAKI Hayao's latest film. If

(snip)

>Any word on what Disney's English title is going to be, yet?
>

Let's see...
"The Little Mermaid," "Beauty and the Beast," and "Pocahontas."

Right, I got it!

"The Little Beast Mononoke"

(The following is a fabrication and reflects opinions held by the writer)

A Cartoon made by some Japanese guy. You know, until recently we here at Disney
didn't know anything about this A-ne-may stuff from Japan! We swear that the
"Lion King" is an original production of ours! Really! Do you think we are
nuts enough that we would let our "instant classics" play "second banana" to
some Japanese cartoon that doesn't have the Eisner seal of approval! Ha! Let's
see. We'll release it to video pan and scan, with some ok english dialog, and
hopefully it will be so obscure that no man, woman, or child in their right mind
will betray our conditioning and watch anything but pure Disney! Ha ha ha!
(She has blood on her face, did you parents know that! And nobody sings! Now,
is that a family movie?)

-Carlos

stanlee

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
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On 14 Sep 1997 hair...@utdallas.edu wrote:

>
> Money talks in the film business, and the runaway success of MH has

> encouraged Disney to push this film seriously. There was an article
> about this in the Sept 8 issue of Time (international edition) and
> you can find it at:
>
> www.pathfinder.com/@@y3uRLQQA0gqG9MP5/time/magazine/1997/int/
> 970908/cinema2.html
>
> Remember, this the *international* edition of Time, *not* the US edition
> (although we hope it may yet appear in a later issue of the domestic
> version here in the US).
>

For those not able to read it
(for some reason or another),
here's the aforementioned article:

****************************************

CINEMA SEPTEMBER 8, 1997 VOL. 150 NO. 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Girl Meets Wolf

A veteran cartoonist strikes box-office gold with Princess Mononoke

BY SEBASTIAN MOFFETT/TOKYO

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartoons are normally light-hearted fare, providing laughs or
action-packed thrills to kids (and increasingly adults), though not much
depth. But animator Hayao Miyazaki has far deeper ambitions. The
56-year-old director has built an impressive career producing high-quality
cartoons that go way beyond the standard slapstick or knight-slays-dragon
genres. Instead, he manages to create morally complex narratives within a
vivid animated world. His latest hit is Princess Mononoke, an epic tale of
the struggle between nature and civilization. "If you're looking just for
box office sales," he recently told Japan's SPA! magazine, "you can follow
the usual methods, like a sword-fight climax and a happy ending where the
baddies get defeated. I wanted to make the audience think."

Miyazaki has done just that--and scored big at the box office. Last week,
the film became Japan's most successful home-grown release ever. In the 44
days after its July 12 release it raked in $53 million. And, unlike the
previous record holder, the treacly 1983 animal flick Antarctic Story,
this one is a hit with critics. Princess Mononoke has won praise for
portraying pre-industrial Japan without relying on the usual cast of noble
warriors and mean-spirited farmers. "Princess Mononoke has certainly
broken the spell of the Seven Samurai," says Tadao Sato, one of Japan's
most prominent film critics. "It has created a new direction for period
dramas."

Set among thatched villages in 14th-century Japan, Princess Mononoke
portrays a running battle between iron workers and the animals and spirits
who populate the nearby forest. The Tatara clan, led by the beautiful and
domineering Lady Eboshi, mines the surrounding hills and cuts down trees
to fire the furnaces where they make weapons. Opposing their industries
are a 300-year-old wolf, her cubs and Princess Mononoke, a young girl who
possesses the ability to communicate with spirits. Angered by the
destruction of their patrimony, they lead several attacks on the village.
The film climaxes when a lion god, decapitated by the Tatara, transforms
into a vengeful demon who terrorizes the village.

Eco-fable the film may be, but Miyazaki avoids serving up simplistic
lessons. Far from evil precursors of a machine-dominated future, the clan
consists of lepers and women freed from bonded prostitution whom Lady
Eboshi has taken under her wing. So, while the film contains 1990s
environmental messages, the Tatara are not senseless destroyers: their
work helps people who could not normally make do. The dilemma is that of
civilization itself. "If you start talking about what is right and what is
wrong, human existence itself can be wrong," Miyazaki recently told
Yomiuri Shimbun. "Human beings are oppressive and cruel, but they have to
live."

Although Miyazaki is one of Japan's most successful filmmakers--his past
six movies have all been top-grossing titles--the animator says he plans
to retire from mainstream filmmaking. A workaholic with floppy gray hair,
Miyazaki's first met international acclaim in 1984 with Nausicaa of the
Valley of Wind. This too had an ecological theme: a young girl's struggle
to survive in a poisoned world inhabited by warring tribes and giant
mutant insects. His most recent production was the 1992 The Crimson Pig,
the 1992 tale of a World War I aviator reincarnated as a porker. In
Mononoke, the director takes animation to new heights, creating a
sumptuous rendition of Japan's medieval countryside. The images derive in
part from a trip he and his team of animators took to Yakushima, an island
off southern Kyushu known for its ancient forests. All told the movie took
three years to make and cost $20 million, twice what is usual for a
full-length Japanese animation. Miyazaki used computer graphics for the
first time, giving the film a fluidity and realism resembling Disney
productions.

That's as far as the resemblance goes, however. Miyazaki has always
admired the Disney look, but not its trademark happy endings and blatant
demarcation of good and evil. "I hate Disney films," he wrote in the 1988
book Modern Japanese Cinema. "They seem like nothing but contempt for the
audience." Lately, though, Miyazaki has made peace with the U.S. media
giant. Good thing: his success outside Japan depends largely on Disney,
which distributes productions of his Studio Ghibli overseas. Princess
Mononoke opened to screens in Hong Kong and Taiwan last month and is
scheduled for release in the U.S. next year as Princess Ghost. Until then,
the skinny princess is waging battle back home against a powerful
alien--E.T., holder of Japan's overall box office record.

--Reported by Hiroko Tashiro

**************************************************

Antonius Lourenco Kasbergen

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Sep 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/15/97
to

>Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this
>just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
>lds release for any other shows?

Until now, only Momonoke Hime. I think it will be on theaters in december.

Talking about it, anyone knows what Disney will do about the violence in
this movie? It has a lot...


Antonius K


Rob Jarero

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
to

Have you actually seen what Disney's done to the anime stuff? I mean,
they recently released a dubbing of SailorMoon (true, it wasn't THEM who
dubbed it), but there were notable edits in the cartoon. Now, what I'm
not worried about is whether they'll do a good dubbing, but if they'll
leave the movies alone. That is, as long as they don't cut out scenes to
fit their little "wholesome family entertainment" mold, I'm happy. Bad
dubbing may be inevitable, but I'm taking the hope for the best route on
that one. But when I think what Disney may do to a movie like Ninja
Scroll, for example.. I get chills down my spine.. Well.. upset, anyway.

Rob J

http://w3.panam.edu/~rjarero/

Rob Jarero

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
to

Now I wish I'd read this BEFORE I posted *sheepish grin*...

Jason Martens

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
to

On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:53:28 -0300, "Antonius Lourenco Kasbergen"
<an...@bac.simplenet.com> wrote:

>Talking about it, anyone knows what Disney will do about the violence in
>this movie? It has a lot...

Nothing. By the terms of the Tokuma deal, Disney is bound from
editing even 1 second from the works. Miyazaki was very explicit on
that point. They can't change it if they want to. Disney may release
it as a PG (or even PG-13) film, but that's about all they can do.

Jason Martens
marte...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu

Nyk Tarr

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
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Once upon a time in the land of uk.media.animation.anime,

Trey Causey wrote:

> In article <874188...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
> wrote:

>> It needn't be extreme, but it could happen. I wouldn't be astonished if
>> names were changed to something less 'foreign' (which in reality means
>> less non-European, given the immigration to the USA), though I hope it
>> wouldn't be as clumsy as some of the more notorious examples.
>>
>> But where's the limit? I haven't seen any of the recent Disney films.
>> Can you imagine Disney putting out Porco Rosso without some changes?
>> They ought to be able to, but I'm out of touch with their standards.

> It was my understanding that Disney is not allowed to alter the story in
> any shape or form other than dubbing it. That's just what my impression
> was. I'm sure some changes could be made and said it was "impossible not
> to for the dub to work." Something like that anyway...

The obvious solution to this for a company like Disney is not to
release it at all; simply buy out the contract.

Nyk
--
____ _
/__ _]| http://www.tomobiki.demon.co.uk

/ \/ |_ | mailto: N...@tomobiki.demon.co.uk Team AMIGA


/ /\ _)| Find me on usenet: alt.games.mornington.cresent

WINGS OF HONNEAMISE: Man trains to become astronaut.


Heffalump

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
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r...@skatter.usask.ca (Ru Igarashi) writes:

>is no contest. Subtitling interferes the least, misinterprets
>nuances the least, and provides a backup for interpretation the

I was watching a Mizoguchi (sp?) film the other day -- "Osaka Elegy," I
think -- and the subtitling was horrible. Poor English grammar,
incomplete sentences, mistranlslations, misleading translations, bad
timing, even a long (~10 minute) passage involving a puppet play where
*none* of the dialogue was translated. I've seen other live action films
in this sort of shape. I've seen anime fansubs that were better. Heck,
I've seen few anime fansubs that were worse!

The small companies translating and releasing anime here give us pretty
well translated products, for the most part. We've got to remember
though, the quality of the subtitle depends a great deal on the subtitler.

(But of course only *because* it was a sub I was able to notice all the
mistakes & figure out what was really going on.)

Mike A

Invid fan

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
to

In article <1398.198T21...@tomobiki.demon.co.uk>, "Nyk Tarr"
<N...@tomobiki.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The obvious solution to this for a company like Disney is not to
> release it at all; simply buy out the contract.
>

Disney is making money re-releasing Studio Ghibli films in Japan. They can
make more money, with a minimum expense, by releasing them here. Even if
they're flops, it's in their interest to bring them out so as to not upset
their Japanese partners.

David Crowe

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97
to

Antonius Lourenco Kasbergen <an...@bac.simplenet.com> wrote:

: >Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this


: >just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
: >lds release for any other shows?

: Until now, only Momonoke Hime. I think it will be on theaters in december.

: Talking about it, anyone knows what Disney will do about the violence in


: this movie? It has a lot...

How violent is it? Clearly more violent than a Disney film, but that
doesn't take much. Is it Ranma level violence? Guyver level? Ninja
Scroll level? Clue me in.


--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman

You only read the manual when there's something you can't figure out. -Skuld

JNG

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97
to

David Crowe wrote:
>
> Antonius Lourenco Kasbergen <an...@bac.simplenet.com> wrote:
>
> : >Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this
> : >just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
> : >lds release for any other shows?
>
> : Until now, only Momonoke Hime. I think it will be on theaters in december.
>
> : Talking about it, anyone knows what Disney will do about the violence in
> : this movie? It has a lot...
>
> How violent is it? Clearly more violent than a Disney film, but that
> doesn't take much. Is it Ranma level violence? Guyver level? Ninja
> Scroll level? Clue me in.
>

> It's clearly the most graphically violent of all the Ghilbi films. One of the main characters goes around taking off the heads ands limbs of his enemies with one shot from his bow.(-check out the preview movs) Disney definitely won't have the balls to release this under their own label because it'll at least get a PG-13 rating or possibly R for violence, which will put off Disney's usual audience. Disney really should release some of the earlier films like Nausica and Laputa theatrically first, in order to generate interest. Otherwise, Mononoke's violence and ancient Japanese setting will have main stream audiences lumping all the Ghilbi films into the "all Japanimation is sex and violence category", despite how good they are. If that's the case, Mononoke will only have art-house/Ghost in the Shell type success.

-JNG
"F**k you Disney if there are no subtitled versions"(-and f**k you even
if there are.)

JNG

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97
to

David Crowe wrote:
>
> Antonius Lourenco Kasbergen <an...@bac.simplenet.com> wrote:
>
> : >Are there any release dates for any of the Miyazaki movies or is this
> : >just speculation? Any indication of threatre release, tape release or
> : >lds release for any other shows?
>
> : Until now, only Momonoke Hime. I think it will be on theaters in december.
>
> : Talking about it, anyone knows what Disney will do about the violence in
> : this movie? It has a lot...
>
> How violent is it? Clearly more violent than a Disney film, but that
> doesn't take much. Is it Ranma level violence? Guyver level? Ninja
> Scroll level? Clue me in.
>
(2nd attempt at posting:)

It's clearly the most graphically violent of all the Ghilbi films. One

of the main characters goes around taking off the heads and limbs of his


enemies with one shot from his bow.(-check out the preview movs) Disney
definitely won't have the balls to release this under their own label
because it'll at least get a PG-13 rating or possibly R for violence,
which will put off Disney's usual audience. Disney really should release

some of the earlier films like Nausica or Laputa theatrically first, in


order to generate interest. Otherwise, Mononoke's violence and ancient
Japanese setting will have main stream audiences lumping all the Ghilbi

films into the "all Japanimation is sex and violence" category, despite

Peter Choi

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97